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Abigail
09-23-2008, 04:37 AM
During a discussion I was having with someone on another site, I was suddenly reminded of the Biblewheel so I thought I'd share here what brought the BW to mind in order to test my thought.

The discussion was to do with claims that the ancient Biblical writers wrote in the way they did because they initially thought of the earth as flat with a huge hard dome for the sky. Verses like Job 26:10 were quoted "He has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters, At the boundary of light and darkness".

I was challenging this claim. The person I was dialoguing with said the expanse (raqiya) is beaten metal which clearly shows the ancient thinking of a hard dome. I looked up raqiya and also raqa and it seems to me that no so much the notion of metal stood out but more the sense of overlay (as in plates being expanded beaten out to overlay and cover something)

Anyway that was the gist of the discussion and that is when the Biblewheel suddenly came to mind as I got this picture of the earth (waters below) being overlaid with the expanse, the expanse inturn formed an underlay for the waters above so that the waters were divided.

1. Waters below - inner circle of BW
2. Expanse - middle circle of BW
3. Waters above - outer circle of BW

What d'ya all think? Waa aaa yyy off or interesting? :blah:

Victor
09-23-2008, 10:22 AM
Hi Abigail! It is good to see you posting!

Your insight is not unfounded. The pattern of the Canon Wheel - the sevenfold canonical symmetry of the Bible Wheel - is based upon the pattern of the Seven Days of Creation! So we can expect that aspects of the structure of the Bible correlate with the God's created Cosmos.

As for the sky being viewed as a huge hard dome back in biblical times, I think you are on the right track. That's how the peoples back then viewed the Universe. Job 37:18 for example says:

Hast thou with him spread out [literally: beaten out] the sky, which is strong [that is, hard], and as a molten looking glass?
God used language that was appropriate for people that lived in those times - it is the Pedagogy of God's Condescension. God stoops down and reaches man using language that people can understand at their own time.

Here's a couple of depictions of the cosmological understanding of the ancients:

http://i36.tinypic.com/vwsbci.jpg

http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/geocentrism/ancient-heavens01.jpg


Of course a link with the Bible Wheel should not be missed. For example, Psalm 77:18 says that God's thunder "was in the heaven (= galgal, wheel)". So the round form of the structure of Scripture reminds of the vault of heaven described in Day Two of Creation.

You add your insight:


1. Waters below - inner circle of BW
2. Expanse - middle circle of BW
3. Waters above - outer circle of BW

This reminds me of a lot of things but I don't want to create any bias on your ideas now so I'd like you to share any additional insights you may have on this tripartite correlation between the Wheel and the Waters. Can you see any other link between it and the structure of the Bible?

Abigail
09-23-2008, 11:02 AM
Hi there Victor

I actually dont believe that the Bible was written with an ancient cosmology in mind. I was challenging that claim :lol:. My counter claim was that though that view may be read into the text, that view is not necessitated.

The Job verse you quoted does give that view but IMO that was one of the people (Elihu) speaking 'words without knowledge' (Job 38:2)

As I said earlier, I looked up raqiya and also raqa and it seems to me that not so much the notion of metal stood out but more the sense of overlay (as in plates being expanded beaten out to overlay and cover something), and that's when I thought how viewing the round earth (waters below) overlayed with expanse and that expanse overlayed with waters above would look like a BW. If the middle wheel of the BW is seen as the expanse you have the prophets and the disciples and apostles as the bright stars (Daniel 12:3)

I havent really though too much about it yet - it was just a thought

Victor
09-28-2008, 01:50 PM
Hi there Victor

I actually dont believe that the Bible was written with an ancient cosmology in mind. I was challenging that claim :lol:. My counter claim was that though that view may be read into the text, that view is not necessitated.
:lol:

Ha! Now I see it. Well, my opinion is that God wrote the Bible with ancient cosmology in mind. The Bible's primary audience believed that and I think that God condescended when He employed language that was appropriate back then. It is a pedagogic tool. And He knows that we today are smart enough to know that. It's like when Jesus teaches that the mustard seed is "the tiniest of all the seeds". It actually is not, but His audience didn't know better and it would be pointless for Him to state otherwise.


The Job verse you quoted does give that view but IMO that was one of the people (Elihu) speaking 'words without knowledge' (Job 38:2)
Well, I and just everyone else I've heard of have understood that the one 'speaking words without knowledge' was Job, the one whom God was addressing, not Elihu, who spoke words of wisdom.

Even if it referred to Elihu, the point is that the moral content of the words was "withouth knowledge"; he wouldn't be rebuked by God for his views on cosmology!

And even if the words withouth knowledge of his were that the heaven was like a hard vault, we would still have the fact that that the OT is saturated with similar language. There are a few examples at the bottom of the first image above.


As I said earlier, I looked up raqiya and also raqa and it seems to me that not so much the notion of metal stood out but more the sense of overlay (as in plates being expanded beaten out to overlay and cover something)
Agreed. One way to see it is to think of firmament (raqiya) as looking like it is solid, with the implicit sense of overlay as to cover something.


And that's when I thought how viewing the round earth (waters below) overlayed with expanse and that expanse overlayed with waters above would look like a BW.
That reminds me of another passage where the firmament is depicted as being solid:

Ezekiel 1:22 And the likeness of the firmament (raqiya!) upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.
This, among other things, is a vision of the Bible Wheel, as Richard as documented with much supporting evidence. What makes it so interesting is that on the firmament there was God's Trone. (1:26) So raqiya is portrayed as something solid because it is the floor for God's Throne. And that in turn links to the Bible Wheel because God is "on top of" everything. He is the Aleph Tav at the top of the Bible Wheel.

And it further links to the Trinity:
Cycle 1: God the Father
Cycle 2: God the Son
Cycle 3: God the Holy Spirit

We can take your idea about the waters above and under the firmament and link it to the cycles:

Cycle 1: Waters above
Cycle 2: Firmament
Cycle 3: The Seas

It seems to integrate with the Trinity, because God is the Source of all there is (Mem, Water and "From", 1Co 8:6), the Son divides like a sword (cf Mat 10 and Luk 12), and the Spirit gathers the People of God (the symbolic Waters). And of course Cycle 2 is all about the Son: the Prophets speak of Him and His earthly life is recorded there. You can read more about it at The Trinity and the Three Cycles (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=223).

This rings a couple of bells, but there may be more.


If the middle wheel of the BW is seen as the expanse you have the prophets and the disciples and apostles as the bright stars (Daniel 12:3)

I havent really though too much about it yet - it was just a thought
I have always linked this verse in Daniel with the structure of the Bible. Daniel is on Division 4 of the Canon Wheel. And what does God create on Day 4? Sun, moon and stars! So the beautiful imagery of the saints as stars in the fourth canonical division is integrated with the Days of Creation of Genesis 1!

Victor
10-02-2008, 08:57 AM
I would like to add that the Bible Wheel links to the structure of the Cosmos in that it is naturally divided in top/bottom by the two arms of the cross inscribed by the canonical divisions:

http://www.biblewheel.com/art/stainedglassBW_sunset.gif

The colors were inspired on this Bible passage:

Exo 28:2ff And thou shalt make holy garments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for beauty. And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron’s garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office. ... And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work.
Richard and Rose wrote the following about the colors and their relationship with the concept of Cosmos (= Heaven and Earth):


It was not until about a year after she [Rose] completed these works that we realized it was not merely the colors, but their placement, that seemed so appropriate. The "heavenly" purples, like the evening sky, are at the top and the "earthly" reds (in Hebrew, "adamah" means both "earth" and "red") are on the bottom. Neither Rose nor I noticed this when she was making them; in all ways we are utterly indebted to the incomparable grace of God‘s guidance.

So that's another link between the Wheel and Creation: the top ten Spokes correspond to Heaven, the bottom twelve, to Earth. It is a "map" of the Cosmos.

Rose
10-02-2008, 03:08 PM
I would like to add that the Bible Wheel links to the structure of the Cosmos in that it is naturally divided in top/bottom by the two arms of the cross inscribed by the canonical divisions:

http://www.biblewheel.com/art/stainedglassBW_sunset.gif

The colors were inspired on this Bible passage:
Exo 28:2ff And thou shalt make holy garments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for beauty. And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron’s garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office. ... And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work.
Richard and Rose wrote the following about the colors and their relationship with the concept of Cosmos (= Heaven and Earth):

It was not until about a year after she [Rose] completed these works that we realized it was not merely the colors, but their placement, that seemed so appropriate. The "heavenly" purples, like the evening sky, are at the top and the "earthly" reds (in Hebrew, "adamah" means both "earth" and "red") are on the bottom. Neither Rose nor I noticed this when she was making them; in all ways we are utterly indebted to the incomparable grace of God‘s guidance.
So that's another link between the Wheel and Creation: the top ten Spokes correspond to Heaven, the bottom twelve, to Earth. It is a "map" of the Cosmos.

Hi Victor,

Another insight just came to me as I was reading your post and taking what you said one step farther.
The third cycle of the Wheel which corresponds to the epistles, is one solid color blue....which in relationship to the other cycles could be interpreted as now in the New Covenant age the earthly and heavenly are one in Christ, no longer having division between the two.

Rose

Victor
10-03-2008, 06:39 AM
Hi Victor,

Another insight just came to me as I was reading your post and taking what you said one step farther.
The third cycle of the Wheel which corresponds to the epistles, is one solid color blue....which in relationship to the other cycles could be interpreted as now in the New Covenant age the earthly and heavenly are one in Christ, no longer having division between the two.

Rose
Exactly sister! I've had this same idea in my mind for quite some time. After the Cross Heaven and Earth become One! No more separation between Creator and creation. In Cycles 1 and 2 we still find heaven and earth delineated by purples and reds, but in the Gospel Age the Cross makes all things converge to Christ who is the All in All. And this very doctrine is expressely taught in the Third Cycle: many verses from 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Phillipians, Colossians and Revelation flood my mind!

Here's the most significant couple of verses:

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
There's so much more I could say about it! In the Third Cycle Heaven and Earth are united, just like the Third Letter of the Greek Alphabet is Gamma (like the Hebrew Guimel), which is phonetically related to Gamos, Marriage, the union of Husband and Wife, which in turn is a picture of the union between the Creator in Heaven and His creation on earth!

Gamma/Gamos is the root of words like amalgamated (joined, combined, united). The numeric value of Gamos is 314, which reminds of the number of the circle, Pi (3,14). And the Third Cycle is an undivided Circle.

But there's more: the Third Cycle coincides with the Seventh Canonical Division (Epistles). Just like Three unites, Seven completes. These are the two most significant numbers in Scripture. Seven is also related to union in marriage and consummation (e.g., Seventh Day, Seventh Commandment, etc, etc...).

The Structure of the Bible therefore literally reflects the teachings of its pages! Has anyone ever seen anything such as this?

Richard Amiel McGough
10-03-2008, 09:17 AM
Exactly sister! I've had this same idea in my mind for quite some time. After the Cross Heaven and Earth become One! No more separation between Creator and creation. In Cycles 1 and 2 we still find heaven and earth delineated by purples and reds, but in the Gospel Age the Cross makes all things converge to Christ who is the All in All. And this very doctrine is expressely taught in the Third Cycle: many verses from 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Phillipians, Colossians and Revelation flood my mind!


Here's the most significant couple of verses:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.There's so much more I could say about it! In the Third Cycle Heaven and Earth are united, just like the Third Letter of the Greek Alphabet is Gamma (like the Hebrew Guimel), which is phonetically related to Gamos, Marriage, the union of Husband and Wife, which in turn is a picture of the union between the Creator in Heaven and His creation on earth!

Gamma/Gamos is the root of words like amalgamated (joined, combined, united). The numeric value of Gamos is 314, which reminds of the number of the circle, Pi (3,14). And the Third Cycle is an undivided Circle.

But there's more: the Third Cycle coincides with the Seventh Canonical Division (Epistles). Just like Three unites, Seven completes. These are the two most significant numbers in Scripture. Seven is also related to union in marriage and consummation (e.g., Seventh Day, Seventh Commandment, etc, etc...).

The Structure of the Bible therefore literally reflects the teachings of its pages! Has anyone ever seen anything such as this?
Tremendous insights my brother!

The value of "gamos" (wedding) = 314 has many significant associations. It is also interesting how this word first appears in John's Gospel:


John 2:1-7 And the third day there was a marriage (gamos) in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: 2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage (gamos). 3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. 4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. 5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. 6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. 7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill (gemidzo) the waterpots with water. And they filled (gemidzo) them up to the brim.

The verb "gemidzo" is based on the root gemo, which etymologists see as an Indo-European root that also is the basis of gamos (marriage). I have long felt that this was somehow connected with the Hebrew gama (Strongs 1572) meaning to "drink" and which first appears in the Bible in connection with gimel, meaning "camel" (which are famous for being able to drink large quantities of water):
Genesis 24:15-20 And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that, behold, Rebekah came out, who was born to Bethuel, son of Milcah, the wife of Nahor, Abraham's brother, with her pitcher upon her shoulder. 16 And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled (male') her pitcher, and came up. 17 And the servant ran to meet her, and said, Let me, I pray thee, drink (gama) a little water of thy pitcher. 18 And she said, Drink, my lord: and she hasted, and let down her pitcher upon her hand, and gave him drink. 19 And when she had done giving him drink, she said, I will draw water for thy camels (gamalim) also, until they have done drinking. 20 And she hasted, and emptied her pitcher into the trough, and ran again unto the well to draw water, and drew for all his camels (gamalim).


It seems significant that this was the sign the led to the marriage of Isaak and Rebekah. Note also that the Hebrew word "to fill" (male', pronounced maw-lay), begins with the final two letters of gimel:

Gimel = Gimel Mem Lamed
Male' = Mem Lamed Aleph

There seems to be a very strong convergence of of symbols in these passages:

The name of the Third Hebrew Letter Gimel and it's meaning as gamal (camel)
The idea of Marriage (Gamos) which happend on the third day in John.
The idea of "to fill" (GK: gemidzo, Hb: male')
The idea of "to drink" (Hb: gama)
The fact that in both cases the sign from God was connected with the drawing of water.This is a very rich area to explore. Note also that the value of the Third Hebrew Letter Gimel is 73 which coheres with the theme of the Seventh Division filling the entirety of the Third Cycle.

Richard

Victor
10-09-2008, 12:35 PM
There's so much to say!

You see, the idea of the union of Heaven and Earth is reflected on the symbolic meanings of Three, Seven and Marriage. I'm reminded of the Wedding Ring. Gamos (Marriage) = 314 => Pi => Circle => Wedding Ring.

Thus we read of (and visualize in the Canon Wheel) the union between Heaven and Earth in the Third Cycle, which corresponds to the Seventh Canonical Division, ending with the Marriage (Gamos) of the Lamb (depicted as Heavenly Jerusalem coming to Earth).


This image is prefigured in Genesis when Jacob dreams of a ladder that unites Heaven and Earth!
Gen 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
But what does come next? Well, the next number that appears in the account is the Number Three:

Gen 29:1 Then Jacob went on his journey, and came into the land of the people of the east.
Gen 29:2 And he looked, and behold a well in the field, and, lo, there were three flocks of sheep lying by it; for out of that well they watered the flocks: and a great stone was upon the well's mouth.

This is the background that sets the scenario of the Marriage between Jacob and Laban's daughter! And the Number Seven appears next!
Gen 29:20 And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her.

This sequence of images (Jacob's Ladder followed by a Marriage) is exactly what John repeats!
Joh 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
Joh 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee.

Therefore the structure of the Bible (Union of Heaven and Earth = Third Cycle = Seventh Division = Marriage) reproduces the pattern that is found in both Genesis and John! All the elements are there!

But it seems like there's an element missing. Where is the Number Seven in John to complete the picture (heaven, earth, three, seven, marriage)?

Well, if we read John attentively we'll notice a day count there:

Joh 1:29 The next day [so this is the second day of the account] John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Joh 1:35 Again the next day [so this is the third day] after John stood, and two of his disciples;
Joh 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
Joh 1:43 The day following [the fourth day] Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
Joh 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
Joh 2:1 And the third day [three + four = seven] there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee.
So the marriage took place on the seventh day of John's account! The third day was also the seventh day! This strenghtens the link between the concepts of Heaven + Earth in the Third Cycle/Seventh Division.

It is an infinite wonder. Of course there's much more!

Bob May
10-11-2008, 05:13 AM
There's so much to say!

You see, the idea of the union of Heaven and Earth is reflected on the symbolic meanings of Three, Seven and Marriage. I'm reminded of the Wedding Ring. Gamos (Marriage) = 314 => Pi => Circle => Wedding Ring.

Thus we read of (and visualize in the Canon Wheel) the union between Heaven and Earth in the Third Cycle, which corresponds to the Seventh Canonical Division, ending with the Marriage (Gamos) of the Lamb (depicted as Heavenly Jerusalem coming to Earth).


This image is prefigured in Genesis when Jacob dreams of a ladder that unites Heaven and Earth!
Gen 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
But what does come next? Well, the next number that appears in the account is the Number Three:

Gen 29:1 Then Jacob went on his journey, and came into the land of the people of the east.
Gen 29:2 And he looked, and behold a well in the field, and, lo, there were three flocks of sheep lying by it; for out of that well they watered the flocks: and a great stone was upon the well's mouth.

This is the background that sets the scenario of the Marriage between Jacob and Laban's daughter! And the Number Seven appears next!
Gen 29:20 And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her.

This sequence of images (Jacob's Ladder followed by a Marriage) is exactly what John repeats!
Joh 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
Joh 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee.

Therefore the structure of the Bible (Union of Heaven and Earth = Third Cycle = Seventh Division = Marriage) reproduces the pattern that is found in both Genesis and John! All the elements are there!

But it seems like there's an element missing. Where is the Number Seven in John to complete the picture (heaven, earth, three, seven, marriage)?

Well, if we read John attentively we'll notice a day count there:

Joh 1:29 The next day [so this is the second day of the account] John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Joh 1:35 Again the next day [so this is the third day] after John stood, and two of his disciples;
Joh 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
Joh 1:43 The day following [the fourth day] Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
Joh 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
Joh 2:1 And the third day [three + four = seven] there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee.
So the marriage took place on the seventh day of John's account! The third day was also the seventh day! This strenghtens the link between the concepts of Heaven + Earth in the Third Cycle/Seventh Division.

It is an infinite wonder. Of course there's much more!

Hi Guys,
Big subject and lots of symbolism.
Here are a few things I've noticed.

The Firmament which divides the upper and lower waters is also the veil in the Temple dividing the holy place and the holiest of all. It was rent from top to bottom (implying that it was God's doing) at the death of Jesus.
Opening the way to the Holy of Holies.

This also made available the Grace of God. Grace means an infux from God.
The Waters are Spirit. The lower waters are Jesus words, the upper are a greater awareness of those words.

Heaven are the permanent planes above the "abyss" in the Qabala. The path on the middle pillar (the "Third Path" on the Tree of Life) that reaches from the Sepirah (shpere) Tipareth (Christ Consciousness) to the Sephirah, Kether above the Abyss (Ancient of Days) is symbolised by the High Priestess Tarot card and the letter Gimel .(camel)
It is said that this Path bears away the "Infux" of the entire Trinity to the lower Seven Sephiroth. This is Grace.
Behind the High Priestess on her throne is a VEIL covered with pomegranets.
From her gown flows a river that is the source of all the water flowing to each Tarot card in turn. Sometimes as rivers and in some, ponds or lakes.
It is that infux from across the abyss. (Grace)

The horizontal beam of the cross can also be looked at as this abyss or veil dividing heaven and earth. This division was done away with in Christ. We can get water Spirit from the upper now.

I did an ELS (Eqidistant Letter Code) search in the book of Genesis on the words Joshua (Jesus in the O.T.) and Mechizadek. The two words form a perfect cross in Gen. 14:2 and 14:18. Interestingly, this chapter is the one where Abraham meets Melchizadek and pays him tithes.
The vertical is the name Jesus (Joshua) and the horizontal is Melchizadek.

Seven means "Covenant" or "Oath". For the way across the Abyss to the Trinity was opened when Jesus was sacrificed. Both for US to rise up to God ( through Daath, "Knowledge" the invisible 11th Sephirah which sits astride that abyss.
And for God to pour out his full measure of Spirit (upper waters) to the lower Seven Sephiroth.
The lower 6 being Man and the last (the tenth), being earth.

Bob

Victor
10-11-2008, 06:10 PM
Hi Guys,
Big subject and lots of symbolism.
Here are a few things I've noticed.

The Firmament which divides the upper and lower waters is also the veil in the Temple dividing the holy place and the holiest of all. It was rent from top to bottom (implying that it was God's doing) at the death of Jesus.
Opening the way to the Holy of Holies.

Hello Bob May,

This seems to make sense. The veil divided the Holy and the Holy of Holies just as the firmament of Heaven divides things above and under it.

Compare the idea to the following verses:

Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Exo 26:31 And thou shalt make a vail of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen of cunning work: with cherubims shall it be made:
Exo 26:33 And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy.

Psa 104:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
Psa 104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain.

Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.
The firmament is thus depicted as a curtain of separation, just like the veil that separated the Holy and the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle.

Victor
10-12-2008, 08:56 AM
I thought further upon this pattern of Heaven and Earth reunited, the appearance of the numbers 3 and 7 and the marriage theme, and noticed the obvious. The Bible opens with this same pattern!

God creates Heaven and Earth; they are united because it is not yet tainted by sin. The earth is "formless and void" so God (1) shapes the Universe according to His Word, (2) fills it with luminaries and living beings and (3) rests from His work. This rest is on the Day 7. The account of Genesis continues with Adam in the garden. God creates Eve and gives her to Adam as her wife. It is the first recorded marriage.

I'm summing up the results in the following table:


http://i36.tinypic.com/23mwnrt.png

Looking at the table horizontally we notice a chiastic pattern: the four themes are grouped the first with the fourth and the second with the third. The first and fourth themes (heaven and earth united and marriage) are literary motifs that begin and end the thematic sequence. The second and the third (three and seven) are numeric motifs that conduct the thematic sequence.

Looking at the table vertically we notice a 3+1 pattern: the first three accounts (Creation, Jacob's story and Christ's early ministry) are "synoptic" in the sense that the thematic sequence is predominantly based on literary features of the text. The last one (the Third Cycle, the Epistles) is "autoptic" in the sense that the thematic sequence is predominantly based on structural features of the text.

Victor

Richard Amiel McGough
10-12-2008, 09:40 AM
Victor,

There is one word for your contribution - WOW!

Very well done my friend. And yet there is so much more to say. Are you aware of the ancient Rabbinic tradition that equates the Sabbath with the idea of a "Queen" and "Bride"? This is found in Talmud Shabbat 119a:

Talmud - Mas. Shabbat 119a

R. Hanina robed himself and stood at sunset of Sabbath eve [and] exclaimed, ‘Come and let us go forth to welcome the queen Sabbath.’(2) R. Jannai donned his robes, on Sabbath eve and exclaimed, ‘Come, O bride, Come, O bride!’
This theme is the subject of much discussion throughout Rabbinic writings. Here are the first few lines of a Hebrew song composed by Rabbi Shlomo Halevy Alkabetz (1505-1584) that I found online (http://www.headcoverings-by-devorah.com/LkhahDodi.html). It is sung to welcome Queen Sabbath taken directly from the Song of Songs:

Lecha dodi likrat kalah, p'nei Shabbat nekablah
Come my Beloved to greet the bride--the Sabbath presence let us welcome!

Shamor v'zachor b'dibur echad, hishmi-anu Kel hamyuchad, Hashem echad ushmo echad, l'shem ultiferet v'lit-hilah
Safeguard and Remember--in a single utterance the One and Only G-d made us hear. Hashem is One and His Name is One, for renown for splendor, and for praise.

Lecha dodi likrat kalah, p'nei Shabbat nekablah
Come my Beloved to greet the bride--the Sabbath presence let us welcome!

Likrat Shabbat l'chu v'nel'chah, ki hi m'kor hab'rachah, merosh mikedem n'suchah, sof ma-aseh, b'machashavah t'chilah
To welcome the Sabbath, come let us go, for it is the source of blessing; from the beginning, from antiquity she was honored, last in deed, but first in thought.

Lecha dodi likrat kalah, p'nei Shabbat nekablah
Come my Beloved to greet the bride--the Sabbath presence let us welcome!
And here is some of the tradition linked to Rabbi Isaac Luria of Safed (d. 1572):

'Queen Sabbath' (http://magdelene.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/reflection-for-january-20-2008-queen-sabbath/)

We must hurry,' Luria said, turning back to his disciples. 'The sun is setting and the Queen is approaching.'

With quick steps they left the vineyards behind and moved up the slopes of Mount Safed. The slender figure of the young master, a full head taller than all his companions, was wrapped in a white satin robe reaching down to his ankles. The disciples too were clad in festive clothes, and their white headcloths fluttered in the mild evening wind. For a while they kept silent as they walked side by side, lest an inadvertent word disturb the reverential mood of the master. But soon the excitement overpowered the disciples, and, almost simultaneously, they intoned the Song of Songs, and walked on singing with growing enthusiasm.

Hark! My beloved! Behold he cometh,
Leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

Already the faraway mountains were printed purple by the messengers of the approaching Queen Sabbath, who spread violet-colored carpets before the feet of the eagerly expected royal Bride. The song of the disciples grew louder:

O my dove in the clefts of the rock, in the covert of the cliff,
Let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice,
For sweet is thy voice and thy countenance is comely.

The swelling tones of the song enraptured the master, and he too began to sing softly:

Come with me from Lebanon, my bride,
With me from Lebanon,
Look from the top of Amana,
From the top of Senir and Hermon,
From the lions’ dens,
From the mountains of the leopards.

The air began to cool, the breezes of dusk caressed the fronds of the date-palms and swept a sweet scent into the flushed faces of the master and the disciples. Luria sang almost inaudibly, as if the Song of Songs and the balsamic scents had dazed him:

Until the day breathe, and the shadows flee away,
Turn, my beloved, like a gazelle
Upon the mountains of spices.

They were out of breath when they reached the top of Mount Safed. A wonderful scene spread before their burning eyes. To the east they could see the valley of Gennesaret and the Jordan. Rows of pomegranate, fig, date, and sycamore trees divided the valley into narrow strips, and in its middle hurried the waves of the Jordan, which was lost to the south in the smooth waters of Lake Gennesaret, surrounded by a crown of dark trees. The purple of dusk painted a red color over the mirrorlike surface of the lake, and a red glow enveloped also the olive and palm trees that framed its banks and lifted their heads proudly toward the flaming sky, as if they too were offering silent hymns while waiting with outstretched arms for the appearance of the glorious Queen Sabbath. Luria and his disciples gazed enchanted into the distance, and whispered the verses of the Song of Songs:

Thou hast ravished my heart, my sister, my bride,
Thou hast ravished my heart with one of thine eyes,
With one bead of thy necklace.
And all this is amplified by an amazing threefold identity based on the value of the Hebrew word meaning "The Sabbath" -

707 = HaShabbat (The Sabbath)
707 = Eshto (His Wife)
707 = Upon the Mountain of Spices (final clause of the Song of Songs)

The fact that these words are linked by a large multiple of seven is particullarly beautiful.

Richard

Victor
10-14-2008, 11:59 AM
Victor,

There is one word for your contribution - WOW!

Very well done my friend. And yet there is so much more to say.
Oh, yeah, there's so much. There's a lot of other ideas but time is not sufficent to expound them...


Are you aware of the ancient Rabbinic tradition that equates the Sabbath with the idea of a "Queen" and "Bride"?
Oh, that's for sure!

Shabbath "completes" the week just as the wife "completes" the husband. (Compare to Genesis 2:18) The idea finds its root in the Bible itself.

Shabbath "has dominion" as a Queen over the life of God's people because she regulates their times, just as Eve was appointed by God together with Adam to "have dominion" over Creation.

Moreover, Genesis says:

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
The Hebrew word for "finished" comes from the same root of "bride"! God finishes his creative work and "sevens" Himself in a covenant with Creation just as the married couple seals their union with the solemn oath of the marriage covenant.

The narrative in Genesis follows with the first marriage. There is a strong congruity of ideas between the "seventh day" and marriage. And that fact didn't escape the author of the Fourth Gospel. He begins by a explicit reference to Genesis 1 and then narrates a sequence of seven days followed by a marriage. This is an obviously intentional mirroring of the story in first book of the Bible.


And all this is amplified by an amazing threefold identity based on the value of the Hebrew word meaning "The Sabbath" -

707 = HaShabbat (The Sabbath)
707 = Eshto (His Wife)
707 = Upon the Mountain of Spices (final clause of the Song of Songs)

The fact that these words are linked by a large multiple of seven is particullarly beautiful.

Richard

These identities are wonderful. They impacted me since the first time I read your presentation. The words above share the same numerical value, the common factor seven reflects their meaning and the digit seven is also an important visual feature of the digital structure of the number itself.

Victor
10-14-2008, 12:35 PM
The appearance of the Number 3 in the narrative of Jacob's life in the form of "three flocks of sheep" is one of those little things in Scripture that leaves us wondering if there is any deeper meaning underlying its mention. From a "grammatical-historical" viewpoint, this is just an incidental occurrence of a number within a text.

But we know that in the Bible a number can denote a symbolic meaning that may not be apparent to those that are not used to typology and historical biblical interpretation.

The Number 3 is linked to the Third Letter, Guimel in Hebrew, Gamma in Greek, which reminds of Gamos (marriage), as in monogamy. And we have a Guimel KeyWord - Gamar (to complete, finish). These ideas remind of the "completion" achieved by marriage.

And that's what we read about in Genesis 29. Jacob meets Rachel because of the three flocks of sheep and this event leads to their marriage seven years later.

Gen 29:2 And he looked, and behold a well in the field, and, lo, there were three flocks of sheep lying by it; for out of that well they watered the flocks: and a great stone was upon the well's mouth.
Note that the appearance of three there is not structurally linked to the Bible Wheel or the Inner Cycle of Genesis. Genesis 29 is on Spoke 1 of the Bible Wheel and Spoke 7 of the Inner Wheel of Genesis. Nevertheless, the surface text mentions a number - three - that is conceptually linked to an idea present there. Three is linked to Marriage. This illustrates the deep thematic tapestry of Bible.

This example reminds me of another incidental mention of a number that "just happens" to link to the Structure of the Bible. We know that Elisha has a leading role in Book 12, 2 Kings. Thus the Bible links Elisha to Twelve. But the first mention of him is in Book 11. What do we read there? An account that works just like the "casual" and "ordinary" appearance of the Number 3 in Genesis!

1Ki 19:19 So he departed thence, and found Elisha the son of Shaphat, who was plowing with twelve yoke of oxen before him, and he with the twelfth: and Elijah passed by him, and cast his mantle upon him.
So Scripture links Elisha and Twelve just like it does with Marriage and Three. The surface text of the Bible associates the Number 12 and Elisha, and then Book 12 comes next and does just the same - but this time in the structure of the text!

Victor
10-15-2008, 12:42 PM
Gamma/Gamos is the root of words like amalgamated (joined, combined, united). The numeric value of Gamos is 314, which reminds of the number of the circle, Pi (3,14). And the Third Cycle is an undivided Circle.
Although the -gama prefix comes from the Greek (as in "monogamy"), in the case of "amalgamation" that is not so. I didn't check its etimology when I wrote the above and presumed it had the same origin. That word has a diverse source: it is from the Arabic al-madjma'a, meaning "fusion".

This coincidence is ironic because it happens to perfect illustrate the symbolic meaning of gamma. It is things such as these that give rise to Folk Etimology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_etymology).

Victor
10-16-2008, 11:45 AM
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit. - Eph 5:18



The accounts in Genesis 24 and John 2 are united in the structure of the Bible because both of them are governed by Bet in the Inner Cycles of Genesis and John respectively.
John 2 - Spoke 2 And the third day there was a marriage (gamos) in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: 2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage (gamos). 3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. 4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. 5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. 6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. 7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill (gemidzo) the waterpots with water. And they filled (gemidzo) them up to the brim.

Genesis 24 - Spoke 2 And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that, behold, Rebekah came out, who was born to Bethuel, son of Milcah, the wife of Nahor, Abraham's brother, with her pitcher upon her shoulder. 16 And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled (male') her pitcher, and came up. 17 And the servant ran to meet her, and said, Let me, I pray thee, drink (gama) a little water of thy pitcher. 18 And she said, Drink, my lord: and she hasted, and let down her pitcher upon her hand, and gave him drink. 19 And when she had done giving him drink, she said, I will draw water for thy camels (gamalim) also, until they have done drinking. 20 And she hasted, and emptied her pitcher into the trough, and ran again unto the well to draw water, and drew for all his camels (gamalim).

A very similar convergence of symbols is found in Acts 2! There we find Pentecost. It took place:

3 X 3 + 1 days after the Ascension;
7 X 7 + 1 days after the Cross.It was a fulfillment of a prophecy in Isaiah 44:

Isa 44:3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring.

Note the theme of God giving water to drink in the form of Holy Spirit. Book 44 (Acts) says:
Acts 2:1-15 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. (2) And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. (3) And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. (4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (5) And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. (6) Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. (7) And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? (8) And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? (12) And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? (13) Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. (14) But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: (15) For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

Compare with the array of symbols in Genesis 24 and John 2:




The name of the Third Hebrew Letter Gimel and it's meaning as gamal (camel)
The idea of Marriage (Gamos) which happend on the third day in John.
The idea of "to fill" (GK: gemidzo, Hb: male')
The idea of "to drink" (Hb: gama)
The fact that in both cases the sign from God was connected with the drawing of water.In Acts 2 we find:

The Third Hebrew Letter Gimel and its association with the Third Person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit.
The idea of Marriage (Gamos) which is linked to the birth of the Bride of Christ, the Church, in Pentecost in the third hour of the day.
The idea of "to fill" (being "filled" with the water of the Holy Spirit)
The idea of "to drink" (Hb: gama = 44)
The fact that the sign from God was connected with the idea of being filled with wine.

Rose
10-16-2008, 04:59 PM
Hi Victor,

What wonderful insights on marriage and the Kingdom of God! :sunny:

Matt. 22:2 "The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,"

Rose

Abigail
10-20-2008, 09:07 AM
Well, I and just everyone else I've heard of have understood that the one 'speaking words without knowledge' was Job, the one whom God was addressing, not Elihu, who spoke words of wisdom. Why does what he says about wineskins (Job 32:19) seem to contradict what Jesus tells us in Matthew 9:17


Even if it referred to Elihu, the point is that the moral content of the words was "withouth knowledge"; he wouldn't be rebuked by God for his views on cosmology! Would'nt he be rebuked if he were pretending to be speaking with wisdom yet in reality wasnt?

Bob May
10-20-2008, 05:13 PM
Why does what he says about wineskins (Job 32:19) seem to contradict what Jesus tells us in Matthew 9:17

Would'nt he be rebuked if he were pretending to be speaking with wisdom yet in reality wasnt?



Job32:19 "Behold, my belly is as wine which hath no vent; it is ready to burst like new bottles."

Mt 9:17 "Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved."

The venting mentioned here has to do with the way wine was made back then. As the grape juice fermented in the skins the gasses created during fermentation passed through the bottle (skin) and at the same time stretched the skin. Very similar to "balloon wine" that can be made with a balloon over a bottle.
The skin could only be used once to make the wine as it cannot stretch or pass gas anymore.

Jesus is saying that we must change body and soul or the new Spirit would destroy us. This changing to accept the New Spirit is, I believe accomplished by the baptism of fire. (Kundalini or Serpent fire)

You are right in that it seems to contradict this except that possibly it is stating that Job still has the "old spirit" and his body is being changed to accept the new. In other words we are witnessing the Baptism of Fire in the allegory of the story of Job.
The EGO is a very subtle thing and I believe that Job with the help of Elihu (the Spirit) is being shown just how subtle it is.

The bottle (soul and body) are undergoing a complete transformation in order to be fit to recieve the Spirit.

"Would'nt he be rebuked if he were pretending to be speaking with wisdom yet in reality wasnt?"

There is a wisdom of man and a Wisdom of God. Job was justifying himself all through this story, but in the end he was rebuked for having done that.
From man's point of view he may have had reason to complain, but not from God's point of view.
His rebuke came from his "friends" and Elihu. Elihu was the Spirit in my opinion.
His friend were really aspects of himself reason, emotion etc. that were accusing and warring within him. The thoughts that run through our minds in times of trouble.
What did I do to deserve this?, etc.

Bob

Abigail
10-21-2008, 03:27 AM
Job32:19 "Behold, my belly is as wine which hath no vent; it is ready to burst like new bottles."

Mt 9:17 "Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved."

The venting mentioned here has to do with the way wine was made back then. As the grape juice fermented in the skins the gasses created during fermentation passed through the bottle (skin) and at the same time stretched the skin. Very similar to "balloon wine" that can be made with a balloon over a bottle.
The skin could only be used once to make the wine as it cannot stretch or pass gas anymore.
Agreed :thumb:


Jesus is saying that we must change body and soul or the new Spirit would destroy us. This changing to accept the New Spirit is, I believe accomplished by the baptism of fire. (Kundalini or Serpent fire) I just think He was saying that something new was taking place. The old covenant was giving way to the new


You are right in that it seems to contradict this except that possibly it is stating that Job still has the "old spirit" and his body is being changed to accept the new. In other words we are witnessing the Baptism of Fire in the allegory of the story of Job.
The EGO is a very subtle thing and I believe that Job with the help of Elihu (the Spirit) is being shown just how subtle it is.

The bottle (soul and body) are undergoing a complete transformation in order to be fit to recieve the Spirit. But Elihu is talking about himself there




There is a wisdom of man and a Wisdom of God. Job was justifying himself all through this story, but in the end he was rebuked for having done that.
From man's point of view he may have had reason to complain, but not from God's point of view.
His rebuke came from his "friends" and Elihu. Elihu was the Spirit in my opinion.
His friend were really aspects of himself reason, emotion etc. that were accusing and warring within him. The thoughts that run through our minds in times of trouble.
What did I do to deserve this?, etc.

Bob

Job was righteous (Job 1:8), so he didnt deserve his suffering as far as I can see.

I dont understand how you can say that his friends were just aspects of himself. Can you say how you know this from scripture or is this your interpretation? His friends are trying to say his suffering indicates he must not really be righteous, but he is. They say God punishes the wicked but Job says he sees the wicked living full lives and dying without experiencing suffering, and he sees innocent people suffering - this is why Job knows we will live again as God will not leave us in a state of injustice.

In Job 42:3 Job says "Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?" Surely this acknowedges there are things that have taken place which are outside what Job could know ie the meeting between God and Satan. If Elihu is the spirit then he would know this meeting and he would be in the position to tell Job that God knows he is righteous and his present sufferings are not because of wickedness, yet what we see is Elihu just saying that God punishes those who deserve to be punished, so in effect though what he is saying is true it is only half the story since not all suffering is due to the suffering one's wickedness (see the Gospels for a good example :D). Why couldnt he have explained this to Job and Job wouldve been quiet, yet at the end of Elihu's speech we have him requesting that Job be tried to the limit (Job 34:36)

Bob May
10-21-2008, 06:02 AM
Agreed :thumb:

I just think He was saying that something new was taking place. The old covenant was giving way to the new

But Elihu is talking about himself there



Job was righteous (Job 1:8), so he didnt deserve his suffering as far as I can see.

I dont understand how you can say that his friends were just aspects of himself. Can you say how you know this from scripture or is this your interpretation? His friends are trying to say his suffering indicates he must not really be righteous, but he is. They say God punishes the wicked but Job says he sees the wicked living full lives and dying without experiencing suffering, and he sees innocent people suffering - this is why Job knows we will live again as God will not leave us in a state of injustice.

In Job 42:3 Job says "Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?" Surely this acknowedges there are things that have taken place which are outside what Job could know ie the meeting between God and Satan. If Elihu is the spirit then he would know this meeting and he would be in the position to tell Job that God knows he is righteous and his present sufferings are not because of wickedness, yet what we see is Elihu just saying that God punishes those who deserve to be punished, so in effect though what he is saying is true it is only half the story since not all suffering is due to the suffering one's wickedness (see the Gospels for a good example :D). Why couldnt he have explained this to Job and Job wouldve been quiet, yet at the end of Elihu's speech we have him requesting that Job be tried to the limit (Job 34:36)

Job 42
1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.
10 And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

We see a change here in Job's attitude. It is here that the end of the whole story is told.
"5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

This is the end result of all of the reasoning of Job, and his three friends. Job has reached another level of understanding and that is he, (and by extention we) cannot judge God's motives by our circumstances.
"Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not."

But notice that the three friends are rebuked by God but not Elihu.

Elihu = "He is my God"
the younger man who rebuked Job and his three friends. (Strong's concordance.)

As to whether or not the three friends are real friends or placed in the story by allegory as parts of Job's psyche, it matters not to me. They would be making the same arguments.

In other words, it is the soul level of understanding saying Job must have really screwed up to deserve this. Or it is Job saying I didn't screw up and I don't deserve this. Both are a partial view of what is going on here.

It is not until God starts listing all that He has accomplished that Job's eyes are opened to his inadequacy to understand;

Job 40:6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.
11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.
12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.
13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.
14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.
15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

Etc., etc., This goes on for two chapters like this.


"Why couldnt he have explained this to Job and Job wouldve been quiet, yet at the end of Elihu's speech we have him requesting that Job be tried to the limit (Job 34:36)"

34:36 "My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men.
37 For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God."

He was tried to the limit. That was a good thing. He ended up with twice as much as he started out with. And a lot less self righteousness. I believe God was explaining to Job through Elihu. What he was explaining was that Job still had a lot of Ego left.

I'm not picking on Job, it is the human condition. And sometimes great trials are all that can get through to us. And sometimes God even uses Satan to accomplish this.
Like I said before Ego is a very subtle thing.


"If Elihu is the spirit then he would know this meeting and he would be in the position to tell Job that God knows he is righteous and his present sufferings are not because of wickedness, yet what we see is Elihu just saying that God punishes those who deserve to be punished, so in effect though what he is saying is true it is only half the story since not all suffering is due to the suffering one's wickedness.."

Yes, some suffering is due to self righteousness. And this is the lesson that Job had to learn. So, though Elihu might have been in a position to tell Job of that meeting, why would he? That would only make Job's ego grow rather than bring him to the end of himself.

Bob

Bob May
10-21-2008, 06:49 AM
Agreed :thumb:

I just think He was saying that something new was taking place. The old covenant was giving way to the new

But Elihu is talking about himself there

"I dont understand how you can say that his friends were just aspects of himself. Can you say how you know this from scripture or is this your interpretation?"

(Job 34:36)

Job 32
1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.
2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.
3 Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.
4 Now Elihu had waited till Job had spoken, because they were elder than he.
5 When Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of these three men, then his wrath was kindled.
6 And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said, I am young, and ye are very old; wherefore I was afraid, and durst not show you mine opinion.
7 I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom.
8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
9 Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.
10 Therefore I said, Hearken to me; I also will show mine opinion.
11 Behold, I waited for your words; I gave ear to your reasons, whilst ye searched out what to say.
12 Yea, I attended unto you, and, behold, there was none of you that convinced Job, or that answered his words:
13 Lest ye should say, We have found out wisdom: God thrusteth him down, not man.
14 Now he hath not directed his words against me: neither will I answer him with your speeches.
15 They were amazed, they answered no more: they left off speaking.
16 When I had waited, (for they spake not, but stood still, and answered no more;)
17 I said, I will answer also my part, I also will show mine opinion.
18 For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me.
19 Behold, my belly is as wine which hath no vent; it is ready to burst like new bottles.
20 I will speak, that I may be refreshed: I will open my lips and answer.
21 Let me not, I pray you, accept any man's person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man.
22 For I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away.

I see a lot of things in this chapter to point to the idea of Elihu being the Spirit.

He is young. They are old, yet without wisdom. New wine, New Spirit, younger brother (second born)

They were amazed and left off speaking.
He begins to speak when they are still. "Be still and know that I am God."

Flattering titles and he is taken away. Again the ego.

He is ready to burst forth from the belly. Jn 7:38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

Bob

Abigail
11-03-2008, 03:58 AM
My problem is that Job was righteous. God Himself had said as much. Why should Job pretend he was not righteous just to act humble as that would be a lie and contradicting what God said about him ie that he was righteous.

I can see that Job is speaking from a lack of knowledge as by his own reasonings he comes to the conclusion that an injustice has been done in punishing him. However, even if this conclusion of Job's is prideful in some way we have the problem that the suffering was not because of Job's sin but because of a test which God had allowed Job to be put through. How then can Elihu say the suffering is because of pride since the suffering is because of a test. The whole discussion was to rationalise why Job has been visited with sufferings.

Elihu does say some good stuff but some of the things he says are strange in my opinion. For instance in Job 36:24 he tells Job to exalt God's work. Really? What does that mean? Must we exalt nature or mother earth (since he goes on to list natural things like weather cycles) or exactly what? I thought the only exalting we should do is of God Himself or we could find ourselves practising idolatory.

Yes, Elihu does fit a lot of what we know about Christ in physical descriptions ie youth as opposed to old, but I think we should also weigh up what he says too. I am still not convinced as you are of him. I also dont think we can just assume that because God doesnt include Elihu with Job's three other friends for admonition that means God approved of what he'd said.

Bob May
11-04-2008, 06:50 AM
My problem is that Job was righteous. God Himself had said as much. Why should Job pretend he was not righteous just to act humble as that would be a lie and contradicting what God said about him ie that he was righteous.

I can see that Job is speaking from a lack of knowledge as by his own reasonings he comes to the conclusion that an injustice has been done in punishing him. However, even if this conclusion of Job's is prideful in some way we have the problem that the suffering was not because of Job's sin but because of a test which God had allowed Job to be put through. How then can Elihu say the suffering is because of pride since the suffering is because of a test. The whole discussion was to rationalise why Job has been visited with sufferings.

If we do something for God does He "owe us one?"

Elihu does say some good stuff but some of the things he says are strange in my opinion. For instance in Job 36:24 he tells Job to exalt God's work. Really? What does that mean? Must we exalt nature or mother earth (since he goes on to list natural things like weather cycles) or exactly what? I thought the only exalting we should do is of God Himself or we could find ourselves practising idolatory.

If we look at nature as His Spirit working on a physical level how can we not be moved to appreciate Him?
Ro 1:20 "For the INVISIBLE things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead;"
That is not idolatry. It is realizing that God left us hints.


Yes, Elihu does fit a lot of what we know about Christ in physical descriptions ie youth as opposed to old, but I think we should also weigh up what he says too. I am still not convinced as you are of him. I also dont think we can just assume that because God doesnt include Elihu with Job's three other friends for admonition that means God approved of what he'd said.


Hi Abigail,

I think the testing of Job is to bring him to a higher level. Closer to perfect so to speak. Self examination, know thyself seems to be the entire theme of the book of Job. This is of course my own viewpoint.
Humility and righteousness go hand in hand because there is no righteousness except self righteousness or imputed righteousness.

God uses Satan (the accuser) to test us. The accuser uses the Law to accuse us. No one can pass that test except they realize that it is only by Grace that we are perfected.
So, over the years, my definition for humility has come to mean to me; An awareness of the Truth.
We, of ourselves, are not capable of perfection or righteousness.

To come to that realization we may have to be tried in the "furnace of affliction."
Sometimes we have to look at ourselves with a microscope, so to speak, to see where we are falling short.
It is not so difficult for others to see our faults or for us to see other's faults.

I believe what Job was going through ( which I believe was actually an allegorical story) is very similar to what Paul wrote about in Roman's 7

Romans 7
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I believe Both the story of Job and the 7th chapter of Romans illustrate the "dawning" in our minds of the "Awareness of Grace" and Righteousness by Faith. And the realization that "Perfection by Works" is an illusion.

Bob

Bob May
11-05-2008, 07:36 AM
Hi Abigail,

16 "When I had waited, (for they spake not, but stood still, and answered no more
17 I said, I will answer also my part, I also will show mine opinion.
18 For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me.
19 Behold, my belly is as wine which hath no vent; it is ready to burst like new bottles."

In rereading this post this morning I found these verses which also lead me to believe that Elihu is the Spirit.
Here he (Elihu) is speaking and says that Job and his friends stood still and answered no more.
This reminds me of the verse "Be still and know that I am God." The Spirit speaks when we are quiet.
If, as I said before, Job and his friends are symbolic of aspects of ourselves, (us reasoning in our own mind) It would make sense that we would not hear the "still small voice of God" until we were quiet.

Also if his "belly is as wine" and it is ready to burst "new bottles" then those "new bottles" would only contain "New Wine" (The Spirit) since, practically speaking, no one would put old wine into new bottles.
It is just not done. You would leave it in the old skin, put it jars or whatever, but it would be a waste of the new skin which would be saved for use in the fermentation process.
Wine makers were in business to make money. They would not waste a goat just to have a container.

Bob

Victor
01-15-2009, 04:37 PM
I keep on forgetting to post the following article:

The firmament and the water above
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hildebrandt/OTeSources/01-Genesis/Text/Articles-Books/Seely-Firmament-WTJ.pdf

It shows how the Bible depicts the firmament as a solid vault and how that doesn't affect the integrity of the Christian Faith.

baublitz
04-28-2009, 01:27 PM
Could you help me to understand, what it the "Terrible Crystal" ?

Thankyou:

Dick Baublitz, xpi






:lol:

Ha! Now I see it. Well, my opinion is that God wrote the Bible with ancient cosmology in mind. The Bible's primary audience believed that and I think that God condescended when He employed language that was appropriate back then. It is a pedagogic tool. And He knows that we today are smart enough to know that. It's like when Jesus teaches that the mustard seed is "the tiniest of all the seeds". It actually is not, but His audience didn't know better and it would be pointless for Him to state otherwise.


Well, I and just everyone else I've heard of have understood that the one 'speaking words without knowledge' was Job, the one whom God was addressing, not Elihu, who spoke words of wisdom.

Even if it referred to Elihu, the point is that the moral content of the words was "withouth knowledge"; he wouldn't be rebuked by God for his views on cosmology!

And even if the words withouth knowledge of his were that the heaven was like a hard vault, we would still have the fact that that the OT is saturated with similar language. There are a few examples at the bottom of the first image above.


Agreed. One way to see it is to think of firmament (raqiya) as looking like it is solid, with the implicit sense of overlay as to cover something.


That reminds me of another passage where the firmament is depicted as being solid:

Ezekiel 1:22 And the likeness of the firmament (raqiya!) upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.
This, among other things, is a vision of the Bible Wheel, as Richard as documented with much supporting evidence. What makes it so interesting is that on the firmament there was God's Trone. (1:26) So raqiya is portrayed as something solid because it is the floor for God's Throne. And that in turn links to the Bible Wheel because God is "on top of" everything. He is the Aleph Tav at the top of the Bible Wheel.

And it further links to the Trinity:
Cycle 1: God the Father
Cycle 2: God the Son
Cycle 3: God the Holy Spirit

We can take your idea about the waters above and under the firmament and link it to the cycles:

Cycle 1: Waters above
Cycle 2: Firmament
Cycle 3: The Seas

It seems to integrate with the Trinity, because God is the Source of all there is (Mem, Water and "From", 1Co 8:6), the Son divides like a sword (cf Mat 10 and Luk 12), and the Spirit gathers the People of God (the symbolic Waters). And of course Cycle 2 is all about the Son: the Prophets speak of Him and His earthly life is recorded there. You can read more about it at The Trinity and the Three Cycles (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=223).

This rings a couple of bells, but there may be more.


I have always linked this verse in Daniel with the structure of the Bible. Daniel is on Division 4 of the Canon Wheel. And what does God create on Day 4? Sun, moon and stars! So the beautiful imagery of the saints as stars in the fourth canonical division is integrated with the Days of Creation of Genesis 1!