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Bob May
09-09-2008, 05:18 PM
From what I remember 100 in scripture means final
1000 means final of finals.
In the Zohar I ran across something that said 1000's refer to the Creative world and 100's refer to the Formative world.
So, it would seem to be referring to "levels" or depths of reality.
Acording to the Qabala there are four worlds
Emanation, Creation, Formation and making.
(Which would explain why in Genesis man was Created in God's image and later formed of dust and still later given coats of skins.)

A throne would be the law or way things work at that level of reality. I may not be understanding this correctly or wording it properly. But John was being "taken up" as it were through these layers of reality. It was a spiritual experience of Reality which I suppose is playing out even now.

It is not a matter of time per se except that things started happening for individuals after the Crucifixion, Resurrection and Pentacost. (the veil to the Holy of Holies was rent and the Spirit was poured out on all flesh.) John was being shown things that were, are and would come to pass. In other words, Reality, as it has always been but which we are blind to.

Just as the first chapters of Genesis do not have to be looked at as an event in linear time, but as levels of reality. Satan bound for 1000 years just may refer to the extent of his power. He cannot reach the Creative world. He was cast into the earth and walks to and fro in it. To see the extent of that power would be to see it from above which is just what might have been shown to John.

I think the details of John's revelation will not be fully understood unless and until we have our own revelations. Paul did. I believe we are also meant to.
And even then, it is His revelation given to him. Shown to John in symbology that maybe was more digestable to him. Though the principles behind the symbology should hold true.

Richard Amiel McGough
09-09-2008, 07:45 PM
From what I remember 100 in scripture means final
1000 means final of finals.
In the Zohar I ran across something that said 1000's refer to the Creative world and 100's refer to the Formative world.
So, it would seem to be referring to "levels" or depths of reality.
Acording to the Qabala there are four worlds
Emanation, Creation, Formation and making.
(Which would explain why in Genesis man was Created in God's image and later formed of dust and still later given coats of skins.)

Hi Bob,

I'm glad you brought up the topic of Qabbalah. It contains many valuable insights that can be traced back to the ancient Jewish/Biblical traditions. But it's really a mixed bag with lots of of ridiculous superstitions that must be weeded out. I look forward to working on this with you.

I am familiar with the "four worlds" and I think the idea has some merit, though I don't know how "literally" I would take them. They are more like "symbolic categories" to organize our understanding of the Universe that God has created. That also is how I view the Tree of Life.

For those who don't know, the Hebrew names of the Four Worlds are these:

Olam Aztiluth - the World of Nearness (to God). It is the "place" of God, the Source of all that is. This is the most abstract of the Four Worlds. It refers to the transcendent aspect of God and is sometimes described as "pure divinity." The word "Aztiluth" means "nearness" - as in "nearness to God." Most folks refer to it as the "Word of Emanation."
Olam B'riah - the World of Creation. It is from the same root as the first word of the Bible, Bereshit, from the root bara (to create). Philosophically, I would say that this is the world of Archetypes.
Olam Yetzirah - The World of Formation. This word is also found in Genesis when God "formed" man from the dust of the ground. This is the level of reality which ordinary folks would call the "spiritual realm" where angels are active and thoughts (which are the "objects" in this world) have direct consequences. It is the realm into which the prophets see.
Olam Asiah - The World of Action. This is from the word "asah" which means "to do" or "something done." It also is found early in Genesis where it appears seven times in the first chapter, most notably in vs. 31: And God saw every thing that he had made (asah), and, behold, it was very good.Now the Number 10 is the number of Sephiroth on the Tree of Life, and the value of the Tenth letter Yod, which is the first letter of the Divine Name YHVH and the smallest letter that is also the root of all "Action" in the sense that Yod means "hand" and the letter means "he did" when prefixed to a Hebrew verb. All these ideas combine along with the Ten Commandments (which judges our Actions) and many other ideas (such as our decimal system, which also is biblical) to convey the idea of "completeness" or "finality" in terms of an "symbolic system" such as the Qabbalistic Hermeneutic. Thus, the Zohar associate different "depths" of complexity by raising the number 10 to the power of the world to which it corresponds (in reverse order):

Asiah => 10
Yetzirah => 100
B'riah => 1000 (this figures prominently in Rev, e.g 144,000, 1000 years)
Atziluth => 10,000 (this is the number used to translate "myriad" in Rev 5:11)There is much to search out in the meaning of these numbers, and how they are used in Scripture, and I think that we can use the process to also evalute the validity (or lack thereof) of the Qabbalistic Hermeneutic.

Now I have received much of my understanding of the numbers from Gematria. For example, the phrase "he who overcomes" is Ho Nikon, and it sums to 1000. This then combines with the value of "The Elect" (H Ekloge) which sums to 144 (!!!), and so we have a very beautiful symbolic association:

144,000 = 144 (The Elect) x 1000 (He who overcomes)

This symbolic complex is further amplified by the number 1000 being one of the meanings of the word "Aleph" which also is the name of the first letter and so carries in itself the sense of "Leader" of "Supreme" or "Preeminence" and so forth. This then gives me the fealing that the "One who overcomes" also is the one who reigns with Christ a "1000 years."

Now my reason for separating this discussion from the more "traditional" attempt to intepret Revelation is because we need to lay our foundation in things that we can know for sure, and the Qabbalistic Hermeneutic tends towards a lot of speculation, to which I am in general highly allergic. My hopes in starting this thread is to "clean house" and to found the Qabbalistic Hermeneutic on the solid rock of Holy Scripture while discarding anything and everything that can not be so founded.




A throne would be the law or way things work at that level of reality. I may not be understanding this correctly or wording it properly. But John was being "taken up" as it were through these layers of reality. It was a spiritual experience of Reality which I suppose is playing out even now.

I think there is some merit to that view, but it is something that would not be part of the "P'shat" (plain) meaning of Scripture. I refer to the four levels of Biblical intepretation (that correspond to the four worlds):

P'shat - plain meaning (Asiah, the World of Action)
Remez - allusions, parables, etc (Yetzirah - the World of Thoughts)
Daresh - the "Big Ideas"/Archetypes underlying the truths found in Remez
Sod - the mysteries and secrets of Holy Scripture revealed by God's Spirit.Those four words form the acronym PRDS which is a Hebrew word meaning "Garden" and is the root of the English word "paradise" found in Revelation wherein is the Tree of Life. (Rev 2:7).

So while I am very interested in searching out the deeper meanings of Scripture, my first priority is to understand the plain meaning (P'shat) because that is where the "rubber hits the road." Also, I am all too aware how inclined folks are to invent vast complex systems which can be amongst the greatest of human achievements unless/until they are contaminated with unfounded speculations. So the big question is this - can there be a foundation for a Qabbalistic Hermeneutic, or is it merely a catch all phrase for every imagination that has ever entered the heart of man?



It is not a matter of time per se except that things started happening for individuals after the Crucifixion, Resurrection and Pentacost. (the veil to the Holy of Holies was rent and the Spirit was poured out on all flesh.) John was being shown things that were, are and would come to pass. In other words, Reality, as it has always been but which we are blind to.

That sounds like the "Idealist" view of Revelation, which see it as revealing timeless truths that are valid to all people in all generations. That was my preferred interpretation before coming to understand how Revelation is integrated with the actual history of the first century and the prophecies of Daniel and Christ (in the Olivet Discourse) that were actually fulfilled in real history (down here in Asiah).



Just as the first chapters of Genesis do not have to be looked at as an event in linear time, but as levels of reality. Satan bound for 1000 years just may refer to the extent of his power. He cannot reach the Creative world. He was cast into the earth and walks to and fro in it. To see the extent of that power would be to see it from above which is just what might have been shown to John.

Yes, I agree that Genesis probably should be interpreted from a "framework" point of view rather than a sequential-temporal report. I think that is clear from its exalted literary (and alphanumeric) structure. As for the thousand years in Rev 20, I think that number is probably a symbol for "the day of judgement" that culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.



I think the details of John's revelation will not be fully understood unless and until we have our own revelations. Paul did. I believe we are also meant to.
And even then, it is His revelation given to him. Shown to John in symbology that maybe was more digestable to him. Though the principles behind the symbology should hold true.
I take a very different view on this point. If the meaning of Revelation depends on private interpretations that can not be proven to others, then they can not be proven to myself either. The Bible is a book given by God for our edification. I would never be satisfied with my own personal interpreation if it had no real demonstrable foundation in the text.

Well, that's just a small post to get this thread going.

Many blessings,

Richard

Bob May
09-10-2008, 06:16 AM
Hi Richard,

Originally Posted by Bob May
It is not a matter of time per se except that things started happening for individuals after the Crucifixion, Resurrection and Pentacost. (the veil to the Holy of Holies was rent and the Spirit was poured out on all flesh.) John was being shown things that were, are and would come to pass. In other words, Reality, as it has always been but which we are blind to.

"That sounds like the "Idealist" view of Revelation, which see it as revealing timeless truths that are valid to all people in all generations. That was my preferred interpretation before coming to understand how Revelation is integrated with the actual history of the first century and the prophecies of Daniel and Christ (in the Olivet Discourse) that were actually fulfilled in real history (down here in Asiah)."

I don't doubt your studies on the actual prophetic fullfilment in the first century. For a truth to be revealed in actual physical history does not mean it cannot be happening at pychological and spiritual levels also. The scriptures are written on many levels. You mentioned four. I believe there are more and that all can be true at the same time.

"Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them.."

This is an actual real world event that we can observe and learn something about God's grace.

"But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the SYNAGOGUES ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them." (Nothing idealist about this scenario.)

This is a prophecy that was fullfilled and yet we can see something of the nature of mankind at work here.

I sometimes look at this world as a book of analogy and symbology. Like the Bible, it tells us of invisible things as the play goes on around us.

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead"

These "invisible things" that Paul speaks about here are not imagination. They are more real than what appears in "this world" because they are eternal.
And being Christians, that is what we should be about. Eternal things.

I am not putting down your method of studying the Revelation of John at all.
I am amazed at the way numbers and codes and ELS cross-reference themselves. Only God could have done it.
But I also have always kept in mind that there is more to what I read than what appears to be there. I have always wanted to know the D and S in "Pardes" that you mentioned in your last post.

In my mind the Scriptures are all about expanded awareness. What are we if not that, awareness?
To be born from above is an awareness.
To know you are no longer under the Law but under Grace is an awareness.
To truely know the fullfilment of Jesus' prayer for us

"All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you."

16 "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world....
20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;..
26 "And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them..."

All of these are awarenesses. Some of them I have gotten some idea of. None of them have I understood in it's entirety. And probably never will.

I know a little about the Qabala. It is a roadmap. A structure of sorts.
But all that I get, I check with Scripture.

Bob

Richard Amiel McGough
09-10-2008, 09:25 AM
Hi Richard,



It is not a matter of time per se except that things started happening for individuals after the Crucifixion, Resurrection and Pentacost. (the veil to the Holy of Holies was rent and the Spirit was poured out on all flesh.) John was being shown things that were, are and would come to pass. In other words, Reality, as it has always been but which we are blind to.

"That sounds like the "Idealist" view of Revelation, which see it as revealing timeless truths that are valid to all people in all generations. That was my preferred interpretation before coming to understand how Revelation is integrated with the actual history of the first century and the prophecies of Daniel and Christ (in the Olivet Discourse) that were actually fulfilled in real history (down here in Asiah)."

I don't doubt your studies on the actual prophetic fullfilment in the first century. For a truth to be revealed in actual physical history does not mean it cannot be happening at pychological and spiritual levels also. The scriptures are written on many levels. You mentioned four. I believe there are more and that all can be true at the same time.
[/quote]
Hey there Bob,

I agree completely that there are many levels to interpreting Scripture, and that a given passage since the Bible was designed by the infinite Wisdom of God. Imagine for a moment the greatest works penned by mere mortals. If they have multiple levels of meaning (which is the hallmark of true literary genius) how much more the very Word of God? So I think we see eye-to-eye on this. It's just that I have been focused primarily on the actual historical meaning of the text in my recent studies since that is the "first application" of the knowledge revealed in Scripture, and it is what can be established with the greatest certainty, and if that foundation is missing then the whole house stands on a faulty foundation.



"Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them.."

This is an actual real world event that we can observe and learn something about God's grace.

"But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the SYNAGOGUES ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them." (Nothing idealist about this scenario.)

This is a prophecy that was fullfilled and yet we can see something of the nature of mankind at work here.

That is an excellent point. Some folks believe that Luke 21:12 (Olivet Discourse) is still future but it is absurd to imagine that we modern Christians will be dragged before literal Jewish synagogues to be beaten for our testimony of Christ, whereas the first century Christians most certainly did experience that torment up to the time that God poured out His wrath upon apostate Jerusalem in 70 AD.

And after establishing its factual historical meaning, I also can see that it reveals something of the "nature of mankind" as you put it.



I sometimes look at this world as a book of analogy and symbology. Like the Bible, it tells us of invisible things as the play goes on around us.

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead"

These "invisible things" that Paul speaks about here are not imagination. They are more real than what appears in "this world" because they are eternal. And being Christians, that is what we should be about. Eternal things.

Yes indeed, those "eternal things" are the very things that Scritpure tells us to focus on.



I am not putting down your method of studying the Revelation of John at all. I am amazed at the way numbers and codes and ELS cross-reference themselves. Only God could have done it.

But I also have always kept in mind that there is more to what I read than what appears to be there. I have always wanted to know the D and S in "Pardes" that you mentioned in your last post.

In my mind the Scriptures are all about expanded awareness. What are we if not that, awareness?

To be born from above is an awareness.

To know you are no longer under the Law but under Grace is an awareness.

To truely know the fullfilment of Jesus' prayer for us

"All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you."

16 "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world....
20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;..
26 "And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them..."

All of these are awarenesses. Some of them I have gotten some idea of. None of them have I understood in it's entirety. And probably never will.

I know a little about the Qabala. It is a roadmap. A structure of sorts.
But all that I get, I check with Scripture.

Bob
I've always had a special love for the D and the S of PRDS too, but in recent years, especially after starting this forum, I have found that most folks are not ready for such studies because they have no foundation in the P and the R. So I have found myself constantly being drawn into the work of laying the foundation. I think it is time to return to my "first love" which involves a study of all levels of meaning revealed in Scripture.

And for that, I am thankful that you raised this topic. :thumb:

Richard

PS: Here is a tip on how to use the forum software. If you want to quote something from the post to which you are replying, click on the "Quote" button in the lower right corner of the post. This will then include the text in tags that look like this:





... Stuff I wrote ....




This will then look like this in your reply:




... Stuff I wrote ....

Bob May
09-10-2008, 04:46 PM
""I agree completely that there are many levels to interpreting Scripture, and that a given passage since the Bible was designed by the infinite Wisdom of God. Imagine for a moment the greatest works penned by mere mortals. If they have multiple levels of meaning (which is the hallmark of true literary genius) how much more the very Word of God? So I think we see eye-to-eye on this.
It's just that I have been focused primarily on the actual historical meaning of the text in my recent studies since that is the "first application" of the knowledge revealed in Scripture, and it is what can be established with the greatest certainty, and if that foundation is missing then the whole house stands on a faulty foundation.""

That's good to hear. I would be happy to share, hear and speculate on some things.
But Christ is the foundation and he said,
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom..."
It is very difficult (for me anyway) to sort out the actual/physical/historical first century prophecies from the personal Revelations promised. They are interwoven. They were written that way. There is a reason for that.

""That is an excellent point. Some folks believe that Luke 21:12 (Olivet Discourse) is still future but it is absurd to imagine that we modern Christians will be dragged before literal Jewish synagogues to be beaten for our testimony of Christ, whereas the first century Christians most certainly did experience that torment up to the time that God poured out His wrath upon apostate Jerusalem in 70 AD.""

No, not in the West because of our laws. But try teaching Grace to those under the Law and you will find that verbal "beatings" and being put out of modern day "synagogues" is still very much in vogue.

""And after establishing its factual historical meaning, I also can see that it reveals something of the "nature of mankind" as you put it.""

I believe that to be the revealing of the Beast who's number is "the number of a man."


""Yes indeed, those "eternal things" are the very things that Scritpure tells us to focus on.

I've always had a special love for the D and the S of PRDS too, but in recent years, especially after starting this forum, I have found that most folks are not ready for such studies because they have no foundation in the P and the R. So I have found myself constantly being drawn into the work of laying the foundation. I think it is time to return to my "first love" which involves a study of all levels of meaning revealed in Scripture.""

A foundation of rational thinking is good to start with. But the rational thinking of an unbeliever pretty much writes off the entire Bible as fantasy and imagination, so where do you draw that line?. But a foundation also knowing that there is more than meets the eye has to be addressed also.

Paul said, "I give you the milk, you can't accept the meat" But he also said,

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Bob
PS I tried your tip but it did not work.

France232
07-19-2011, 09:08 AM
Hi Bob,

I'm glad you brought up the topic of Qabbalah. It contains many valuable insights that can be traced back to the ancient Jewish/Biblical traditions. But it's really a mixed bag with lots of of ridiculous superstitions that must be weeded out. I look forward to working on this with you.

I am familiar with the "four worlds" and I think the idea has some merit, though I don't know how "literally" I would take them. They are more like "symbolic categories" to organize our understanding of the Universe that God has created. That also is how I view the Tree of Life.

For those who don't know, the Hebrew names of the Four Worlds are these:

Olam Aztiluth - the World of Nearness (to God). It is the "place" of God, the Source of all that is. This is the most abstract of the Four Worlds. It refers to the transcendent aspect of God and is sometimes described as "pure divinity." The word "Aztiluth" means "nearness" - as in "nearness to God." Most folks refer to it as the "Word of Emanation."
Olam B'riah - the World of Creation. It is from the same root as the first word of the Bible, Bereshit, from the root bara (to create). Philosophically, I would say that this is the world of Archetypes.
Olam Yetzirah - The World of Formation. This word is also found in Genesis when God "formed" man from the dust of the ground. This is the level of reality which ordinary folks would call the "spiritual realm" where angels are active and thoughts (which are the "objects" in this world) have direct consequences. It is the realm into which the prophets see.
Olam Asiah - The World of Action. This is from the word "asah" which means "to do" or "something done." It also is found early in Genesis where it appears seven times in the first chapter, most notably in vs. 31: And God saw every thing that he had made (asah), and, behold, it was very good.

Richard


Hello,

This is the connexien between the: Menorah - Tetragrammaton - four worlds - the value 232 "let there belight"

The four worlds sum = 232

http://www.lustres-a-pampilles.fr/p1240010.jpg


The Menorah and the four worlds:


http://www.lustres-a-pampilles.fr/fdfddfd.jpg