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View Full Version : More of My Thoughts On the Nature of Jesus as it Relates the God



gregoryfl
09-07-2008, 11:27 AM
Now, I know my statement about not believing in the Trinity as it is understood by most evangelical has given rise to the accusation that I believe like the Jehovah's Witnesses, but let me say that I don't agree with the statement "God...created Jesus Christ in the beginning," Understanding Jesus Christ isn't found in a formula that designates the "persons of the Godhead", nor is it found in the alternative that says he was the first creation. To me, he is neither.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word." John 1:1

When we're looking for Jesus "in the beginning" we're looking for the wrong thing. It is the "Word of God" that should get your attention. The word came forth out of the mouth of God ... "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host. (Psalm 33:6)"

Remember the creation story? Everytime God said, "Let there be ..." There was whatever He spoke. "So shall my Word be which goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it. (Isaiah 55:11)". So, what is the connection between God and his Word? Is it understood as a creation ... or as the exact expression of who He is?

"In these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world, and he is the radiance of his glory, and the exact representation of his nature, and upholds all things by the word of his power. (Hebrews 1:2 & 3)."

It was the Word that was made flesh and dwelt among us (see John 1:14). Most of our teachings on this talk around in circles. They say that Jesus came down from God and became flesh, but that isn't true, is it? Matthew says that Mary "was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit" (1:18). God told Joseph, "that which has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bear a son; and you shall call his name Jesus, for it is he who will save his people from their sins." (1:20 & 21).

"Jesus" didn't come down from heaven, but the Word of God (or the Spirit of God) came down and was joined together in union with the creation to save this creation. Notice, it wasn't until the word became flesh that he was called "Jesus".

It was the expression of God that got joined together with the creation that gave God His Son. Not Jesus Christ, a creation of God, but the joining of the Creator with the Creation.

Defining God by a doctrine (even though it may even be composed of some living realities) simply can't be done. We hear a testimony to his reality in the words, but the intent behind the forming of a hard and fast teaching has more to do with conformity than with life. Such an approach may give us the sense of something more concrete, in that we gain reinforcement by common consensus, but it ends up missing the whole connection between God and man in Christ.

The Trinity is supposed to explain God, and yet it ends up keeping him alienated because it's design seems to make us realize that God is God, man is man ... and so it shall be forever. And this is my biggest problem with the Trinity. For how could there ever be any kind of real understanding of God when the very purpose of the "persons" of Christ and the Spirit are negated?

After all, the joining of God and man is exactly what happened when Jesus was born, and then in his death and resurrection and the indwelling of the Spirit that same union was made a reality in him. In other words, how could you ever "explain" Jesus Christ by making his "personage" way beyond us - in the realm of the unreachable God - so that our only hope is to get "closer" to him? No, no, Jesus Christ is the very definition of the UNION between God and man because the Spirit of the living God dwells in man (which is why Paul, John, Peter and the others constantly spoke of this very real deliverance).

We were at one time alienated from God because of sin but Jesus did away with both the sin and the alienation by including that old creation in his death. In rising from the dead he was that lone seed that had sprouted, bringing forth much fruit. That's us, for he has become our very life.

Rose
09-07-2008, 07:52 PM
After all, the joining of God and man is exactly what happened when Jesus was born, and then in his death and resurrection and the indwelling of the Spirit that same union was made a reality in him. In other words, how could you ever "explain" Jesus Christ by making his "personage" way beyond us - in the realm of the unreachable God - so that our only hope is to get "closer" to him? No, no, Jesus Christ is the very definition of the UNION between God and man because the Spirit of the living God dwells in man (which is why Paul, John, Peter and the others constantly spoke of this very real deliverance).

We were at one time alienated from God because of sin but Jesus did away with both the sin and the alienation by including that old creation in his death. In rising from the dead he was that lone seed that had sprouted, bringing forth much fruit. That's us, for he has become our very life.

Hi Ron :yo:

Your post very clearly presents how our union with God became a reality through Christ. Our communion with God was restored when Christ became flesh and sin and death were put under His feet.

Rose

gregoryfl
09-08-2008, 10:31 AM
Yes, and how good it is to have places like this where we can present that reality in the midst of a world that would deny it by asserting its illusion as reality.

Ron

gregoryfl
09-22-2008, 06:05 PM
Irenaeus, in his Proof of the Apostolic Preaching, had this to say concerning Jesus, and how he relates to God:

This then is the order of the rule of our faith, and the foundation of the building, and the stability of our conversation: God, the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith. The second point is: The Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the dispensation of the Father: through whom all things were made; who also at the end of the times, to complete and gather up all things, was made man among men, visible and tangible, in order to abolish death and show forth life and produce a community of union between God and man.

The Word of God, which, by means of the Spirit of God, was born as Jesus, was not a person before Jesus came on the scene. The Word of God was just that, the word, or expression, that came out of the mouth of God the Father. This word was made manifest in various ways before Jesus was born. One such way was in the written and spoken prophecies that God gave the prophets. Other such ways were by his word being spoken through angels, such as at the giving of the law.

John 1:1 says In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward the Mighty One, and the word was as to its nature, divine.

What I understand this to mean is that in the beginning, before anything was created, there was God. God's word was toward him because when he sends it out it returns to him fulfilling what he desires by it. It is God's self-revelation. He possessed the word. It was his. The Greek word pros speaks of direction; in this case, the direction is toward God. God does not send out his word in vain, it always returns to him, revealing Himself in the process. This is expressed by Paul when he says "For out of him, and through him, and into him are all things."

It was when God spoke that his word came out of him and creation occurred. Because that word was toward God, it could also be said to be of divine origin, or expressive of the nature of God.

The same can be said of man's word. The word of man is with man in his mind and heart. It is not a separate person within or as a part of man, but is the expression of a man. That word is, as to its nature, what man is. This is why it is said to be the word of man.

So I could render John 1:1 this way if I were referring to how man's word relates to man:

In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward man, and the word was as to its nature, human.

Now please don't take this analogy too far. Our words do not have creative power like God's does. That isn't my point. I am merely pointing out that God's Word was not a separate person, existing alongside God, but was the very expression of God himself. So truly, all things could be said to have come into existence by means of the Word of God, because God spoke all things into existence.

One thing I feel the need to clarify, and that is my choice of the word divine with regard to the Word. I am not using the definition of "having the being or nature of God." As I mentioned, I do not believe that the Word spoken of here is a person. I use divine in the sense of relating to, or proceeding directly from God, thus having his characteristics. Another accurate paraphrase might be "and the word was what God is." For example, God is holy, his word is holy, God is good, his word is good, God is righteous, his word is righteous, and so on.

That is how I understand that God the Father can be said to have created all things, and also that Christ can also be credited with creation.