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Craig.Paardekooper
08-30-2008, 11:47 AM
I am writing a new book at the moment called "Enoch : an essay on angels"
People may be interested in some of the things coming to light. The book is available as a free download here -

http://www.craigdemo.co.uk/enochvid2.htm

Victor
08-30-2008, 01:58 PM
Thank you Craig.

You really keep an eye on time periods. I find it interesting that Enoch is the 7th from Adam and Jesus is the 77th! It links to 1 Enoch which suggests that the fallen angels would be kept bound for 70 generations until the day of judgment.

1 Enoch 10:15 (...) And when all their sons shall be slain, when they shall see the perdition of their beloved, bind them for seventy generations underneath the earth, even to the day of judgment, and of consummation, until the judgment, the effect of which will last for ever, be completed.
Of course this is extracanonical but it gives a rich background to what we read in the NT, specially the latter books like Jude and Revelation.

Craig.Paardekooper
11-11-2009, 12:33 PM
I find it interesting that Enoch is the 7th from Adam and Jesus is the 77th! It links to 1 Enoch which suggests that the fallen angels would be kept bound for 70 generations until the day of judgment.
1 Enoch 10:15 (...) And when all their sons shall be slain, when they shall see the perdition of their beloved, bind them for seventy generations underneath the earth, even to the day of judgment, and of consummation, until the judgment, the effect of which will last for ever, be completed.


I often used to wonder why God waited so long to send Jesus. Why all that time from Adam to Jesus. And why did Jesus choose that particular time to come.

The Bible states that Jesus came in the 70th generation after Enoch, and Jesus came to bring a final judgement upon Satan. Similarly, the Book of Enoch states that the angels would be held in prison for 70 generations from the time of Enoch - until their final judgement.

After 70 generations we find God offering forgiveness through the atoning death of Jesus. It therefore seems that mankind too underwent a punishment for 70 generations (not just the angels). After 70 generations, our punishment was complete, and forgiveness was made available.

That's must be why God waited until the 70th generation.......

Prior to Enoch, people had lived much longer lifespans. Jesus came to return us to long life. In fact Jesus offered eternal life. But Christians still die of old age, so what does this mean??

The evidence of greater longevity in past ages shows that God can quite easily create worlds where lifespans are far longer - thousands or even millions of years - in natural worlds filled with extraordinary animals and abundant nature. God's promise is to return us to this state.

Part of the punishment was estrangement from God. Forgiveness means union with God is again possible. So Jesus came to return us to spiritual life, not just long life.

Even during the 70 generations, God was preparing the way of repentance. He sent His prophets.

gilgal
12-19-2010, 08:20 PM
This is a little researched area of history that is quite facinating.

Did Vendyl Jones find the Ark? I'm more persuaded that it's in heaven as mentioned in Revelation 11.

Craig.Paardekooper
09-04-2011, 11:23 AM
Christ lived in the 70th generation after Enoch
Khrishna lived in Enoch's generation

Whilst Krishna appeared at the beginning of the 70 generations, Christ appeared at the end.

What I find curious is the similarity of the names, even though they have very different meanings.

Also, both Christ and Khristna were regarded as divine incarnations.

Krishna was specifically sent because of a war between the gods (devas) and demons (asuras). His primary mission was to reduce the power of the demons. This war is described in the Mahabharata - which dates the war to the very generation of Enoch - c 3200 B.C.


All was well in the Krta Yuga – people were virtuous, Kings just, and traders honest. Animals were well taken care of.

Around this time, the Asuras, having been repeatedly defeated by the descendants of Aditi (Devas), with a desire to attain divinity began to be born in earth among men and animals. The Asuras, intoxicated with power and pride, troubled all people, sages and other creatures. The Earth was unable to defend this onslaught; and neither did Sesha , the Tortoise nor the Elephant (the last three supporting the earth in some capacity). The Earth then approached Brahma and pleaded for a reprieve. Brahma replied, 'O Earth, I am appointing the Devas to accomplish that which will liberate you from this situation'. Saying this, he bode her farewell.

In this illustration, Shiva, Brahma, Indra and Prithvi (in the form of a cow) pray to Narayana (Artist: Kailash Raj)
Brahma then summoned the Devas and addressed them thus, 'O Devas, to relieve the Earth of this burden, may you all be born on Earth to cultivate strife (with the Asuras)'. Brahma also conveyed the message to Apsaras and Gandharvas. The celestials, having taken the resolution to incarnate on earth then went to Vaikunta, the abode of Narayana. There Indra requested Lord Vishnu, saying, 'O Lord, Please incarnate on the Earth to liberate her burden'. Narayana acceded to His request by saying,'I will'. Hearing this, Indra gave appropriate instructions to the Devas and returned to his abode.
Subsequently the Devas gradually began their incarnations on earth for the destruction of the Asuras and the welfare of the worlds.


This is the same war as depicted in the writings of Enoch.

The war itself seems to have involved quite advanced weaponry - contributed by both the devas and asuras -


The Sanskrit Karna Parva, given below in English translation, is much more detailed, describing at least two battles involving aerial vehicles known as vimanas. The first battle fails to topple the ocean-based regime; but eventually an especially large vimana is constructed and equipt with celestial weaponry, including something containing the "power of the universe" (nuclear energy?). Sankara (herein called Mahadeva or "Great God") is given command of this aerial vehicle. He enters this celestial car, accompanied by cheering deities, and ascends into the heavens fully armed with powerful celestial weapons. Flying resolutely toward his enemies the Daityas and Danavas (Titans), Sankara streaks from the skies in his radiant vimana, and ends the ten year-long war by firing this god-given weapon straight at Tripura, the capital city of Atala, totally destroying Triple City and sending the entire rebellious race of Asuras burning to the bottom of the "Western Ocean". Here is the account (edited because it is about a dozen pages long) from the Mahabharata:


Duryodhana said,--Listen, once more, O ruler of the Madras, to what I will say unto thee, about what happened, O lord, in the battle between the gods and the Asuras in the days of yore! The great Rishi Markandeya narrated it to my sire. I will now recite it without leaving out anything, O best of royal sages! Listen to that account confidingly and without mistrusting it at all. Between the gods and the Asuras, each desirous of vanquishing the other, there happened a great battle, O king, which had Takara for its evil (root). . . Those Asuras then, filled with joy . . .and having settled it among themselves about the construction of the three cities [Tripura], selected for the purpose the great Asura Maya, the celestial artificer, knowing no fatigue or decay, and worshipped by all the Daityas and Danavas. Then Maya, of great intelligence, by the aid of his own ascetic merit, constructed the three cities . . . all in such a way as to revolve in a circle, O lord of Earth! Each of those cities measured a hundred Yojanas in breadth and a hundred in length. And they consisted of houses and mansions and lofty walls and porches. And though teeming with lordly palaces close to each other yet the streets were wide and spacious. And they were adorned with diverse mansions and gate-ways . . .

Those three Daitya kings, soon assailing the three worlds with their energy, continued to dwell and reign, and began to say,--"Who is he called the Creator?" . . . Crowned with success by means of austere penances, those enhancers of the fears of the gods sustained, O king, no diminution [sic] in battle. Stupified then by covetousness and folly, and deprived of their senses, all of them began to shamelessly exterminate the cities and towns established all over the universe. Filled with pride . . . the wicked Danavas ceased to show any respect for anybody. While the worlds were thus afflicted, Sakra [Cukra, in some translations], surrounded by the Maruts, battled against the three cities by hurling his thunder upon them from every side. When however Paradara failed to pierce those cities . . . the chief of the celestials . . . asked the divine Grandsire the means by which triple city could be destroyed. The illustrious deity, hearing the words of Indra, told the gods,--"He that is an offender against you offends me also . . . Those three forts are to be pierced with one shaft. By no other means can their destruction be effected." (Karna Parva, Section XXXIII)

The gods said,--"Gathering all forms that may be found in the three worlds and taking portions of each, we will, O Lord of the gods, construct a car [vimana] of great energy for thee. It will be a large car, the handy-work of Viswakarman, designed with intelligence."--Saying this, those tigers among the gods began the construction of that car . . . the Mind became the ground upon which that car stood, and Speech the tracks upon which it was to proceed. Beautiful banners of various hues waved in the air. With lightning and Indra's bow [celestial weapons?] attached to it, that blazing car gave fierce light.

Thus equipt, that car shone brilliantly, like a blazing fire in the midst of the priests officiating at a sacrifice. Beholding that car properly equipt, the gods became filled with wonder. Seeing the energies of the entire universe united together in one place, O sire, the gods wondered, and at last represented unto that illustrious Deity that the car was ready. After, O monarch, that best of cars had thus been constructed by the gods . . . Sankara placed upon it his own celestial weapons . . . the gods repaired unto the Grandsire, and inclining him to grace, said these words . . . 'A car [vimana] has been constructed by us, equipt with many wonderful weapons . . .'

Then Mahadeva, terrifying the very gods, and making the very Earth tremble, ascended that car resolutely . . . When that boon-giving Lord, that despeller of the fears of the three worlds, thus proceeded, the entire universe, all the gods, O best of men, became exceedingly gratified . . . having ascended the car [Sankara], set out for the Asuras . . . to the spot where the Daityas are!

When the boon-giving Brahman, having ascended the car, set out for the Asuras . . . towards that spot where triple city . . . stood, protected by the Daityas and Danavas . . . The triple city then appeared immediately before that god of unbearable energy, that deity of fierce and indescribable form, that warrior who was desirous of slaying the Asuras. The illustrious deity . . . sped that shaft which represented the might of the whole universe, at the triple city. . . loud wails of woe were heard from those cities as they began to fall . . . Burning those Asuras, he threw them down into the Western Ocean. Thus was the triple city burnt and thus were the Danavas exterminated by Maheswara . . . (Karna Parva, Section XXXIV)

The Danavas are "giants" and "Titans" according to a standard Sanskrit Dictionary (Oxford University Press, 1974).

Richard Amiel McGough
09-04-2011, 01:14 PM
Hey there Craig,

So what do you think the similarities mean?

Richard

Craig.Paardekooper
09-07-2011, 11:55 AM
Hi RAM,

I think that the records of the war that took place in the time of Enoch are part of the bigger picture. The Mahabharata is simply a record of that war.

It is curious to ask what was the religion before the Flood?

I believe that the pre-incarnate Christ was involved in that war too. In the 70th generation after Enoch, Christ came to bring judgement upon Satan, so who was responsible for defeating and imprisoning the fallen angels in the time of Enoch?

Richard Amiel McGough
09-07-2011, 01:53 PM
Hi RAM,

I think that the records of the war that took place in the time of Enoch are part of the bigger picture. The Mahabharata is simply a record of that war.

It is curious to ask what was the religion before the Flood?

I believe that the pre-incarnate Christ was involved in that war too. In the 70th generation after Enoch, Christ came to bring judgement upon Satan, so who was responsible for defeating and imprisoning the fallen angels in the time of Enoch?
You bring up a very curious question. It sounds like you believe that Book of Enoch is an accurate record. Is that correct? If so, why do you think we should believe it?

Craig.Paardekooper
09-07-2011, 05:33 PM
Hi Ram,

Enoch and other ancient traditions - such as Mahabharata, Greek traditions etc, all cast an interesting light on the time of Enoch. It is not just Enoch in isolation. There are many many sources that say a similar thing. None of these sources are inerrant, but the general story that emerges seems to be that there was an angelic invasion in the time of Enoch, and these angels were defeated and punished by being imprisoned.

The New Testament completes the picture by stating that Christ came in the 70th generation after Enoch. And the New Testament quotes from the Book of Enoch.

We know that God brought judgement upon the world of Enoch in the form of the Flood and the fall in longevity.

As to the third part of that judgement - the imprisonment of the fallen angels - Christ did judge them 70 generations later.

Whatsmore, it makes sense that the fallen angels were punished for seventy generations, since their works were destroyed by the Flood which occurred 777.7 x 777.77 days after Adam's birth.

People sometimes wonder why Christ waited until his generation to come. Why didn't he come 1000 years earlier? I think the answer might be that we fell under the same judgement as the fallen angels, and that punishment lasted 70 generations.

I am not saying that I believe every detail in the Book of Enoch or the other traditions. I just feel that the general story is part of the bigger picture.

Craig.Paardekooper
10-26-2011, 06:01 PM
The whole Bible spans 70 generations of punishment of the fallen angels from Enoch to Christ.

In the time of Enoch, God brought the Flood upon the earth to destroy the offspring of the fallen angels.

Then, in the time of Abraham, God sent angels who smote Sodom and Gomorrah - where the giants dwelt.

Then exactly at the midpoint of the 70 generations, God raised up the army of the Israelites to destroy the descendants of the giants who dwelt in the promised land. He armed the Israelites with a special weapon - the Ark of the Covenant.

By the time of Isaiah, the war becomes more spiritual and inward. The golden giant statue created by Nebuchadnezzar is replaced by successively poorer metals, and finally it is broken up and destroyed by the Kingdom of God. The spirit of pride and of the Superman, is replaced by the spirit of God. The demons within the psyche are progressively driven out.

Finally, in the time of Jesus the fallen angels are judged and the Jewish Age is brought to an end. The 70 generations are complete.

Richard Amiel McGough
10-26-2011, 06:04 PM
In the time of Enoch, God brought the Flood upon the earth to destroy the offspring of the fallen angels.

So you believe that God designed the angels with 46 chromosomes and the ability to mate with humans? Why would he do that? It seems like pagan mythology to me. I mean, Zeus could have sex with women or animals and produce fertile offspring.

gilgal
10-26-2011, 08:38 PM
I wonder when did man learn to write? And in the beginning I think they expressed by drawing things.

So I wonder if pre-flood civilization learned to write? or was the book on Enoch written after?

The books of Moses Genesis-Deuteronomy must have been completed after since it even records the death of Moses. And it has names of cities named much later such as I think Bethel.

Also the Revelation 12 I believe is referring to after the birth of Christ Satan's will was to devour the child but when he failed then there was war.

Richard Amiel McGough
10-26-2011, 09:53 PM
I wonder when did man learn to write? And in the beginning I think they expressed by drawing things.

So I wonder if pre-flood civilization learned to write? or was the book on Enoch written after?

The books of Moses Genesis-Deuteronomy must have been completed after since it even records the death of Moses. And it has names of cities named much later such as I think Bethel.

Also the Revelation 12 I believe is referring to after the birth of Christ Satan's will was to devour the child but when he failed then there was war.
Yeah, language start with pictograms, and they came to represent consonants like B is bat and C is for cat, so then we got alphabetic language around 1500 BC according to most scholars I think.

The book of Enoch is very late fiction as far as I know. Like 200 BC.

I agree about Rev 12.

And yeah, there are lots of anachronisms in the Torah. Some folks like to think they were the work of later editors while the basic stuff was written by Moses. I don't think Moses wrote a word of it. It was mostly done probably in bits and pieces between around 1000 BC - 600 BC I think. Geneis 1 is a lot later than Genesis 2. That's why its so much more advanced in style and conception. It's a fascinating study to trace out how it was put together. I highly recommend Who Wrote the Bible (http://www.amazon.com/Wrote-Bible-Richard-Elliott-Friedman/dp/0060630353) by Richard Elliot Friedman. He gives a very convincing overview of the modern scholarship. A few years ago, I would have hated the book because they make the Bible look like something just made up by people, and I "knew" it was designed by God because of the Bible Wheel. I still think the Bible Wheel is valid, but it doesn't matter how it came to be. That's a different question. And the JEPD hypothesis has some powerful evidence in its favor.

gilgal
10-27-2011, 12:26 PM
Yeah, language start with pictograms, and they came to represent consonants like B is bat and C is for cat, so then we got alphabetic language around 1500 BC according to most scholars I think.

The book of Enoch is very late fiction as far as I know. Like 200 BC.

I agree about Rev 12.

And yeah, there are lots of anachronisms in the Torah. Some folks like to think they were the work of later editors while the basic stuff was written by Moses. I don't think Moses wrote a word of it. It was mostly done probably in bits and pieces between around 1000 BC - 600 BC I think. Geneis 1 is a lot later than Genesis 2. That's why its so much more advanced in style and conception. It's a fascinating study to trace out how it was put together. I highly recommend Who Wrote the Bible (http://www.amazon.com/Wrote-Bible-Richard-Elliott-Friedman/dp/0060630353) by Richard Elliot Friedman. He gives a very convincing overview of the modern scholarship. A few years ago, I would have hated the book because they make the Bible look like something just made up by people, and I "knew" it was designed by God because of the Bible Wheel. I still think the Bible Wheel is valid, but it doesn't matter how it came to be. That's a different question. And the JEPD hypothesis has some powerful evidence in its favor.
I would doubt that Moses himself wrote the Torah because he's mentioned as a third person. But we know that the book of the law existed in Josiah's time since they found it. It was lost. The Torah was probably a collection of data put together in a chronological order.

It is said that Ezra added a few things such as the 5 verse introduction to Deuteronomy.

Richard Amiel McGough
10-27-2011, 03:24 PM
I would doubt that Moses himself wrote the Torah because he's mentioned as a third person. But we know that the book of the law existed in Josiah's time since they found it. It was lost. The Torah was probably a collection of data put together in a chronological order.

It is said that Ezra added a few things such as the 5 verse introduction to Deuteronomy.
The story about the loss of the book of the Law is one of the strangest stories in the Bible. How is possible that the people defined by the Torah could have completely forgotten about it??? It doesn't make any sense at all. It's similar to the problem with the fact that nobody was circumcised during the forty years in the desert. What's up with that??? Moses was leading them. Why didn't he tell them to obey the law? Why didn't God mention it? Something fishy is going on in these stories.

Yes, the Jews have a tradition about Ezra - the ready scribe - organizing the OT.

Craig.Paardekooper
10-27-2011, 10:16 PM
So you believe that God designed the angels with 46 chromosomes and the ability to mate with humans? Why would he do that? It seems like pagan mythology to me. I mean, Zeus could have sex with women or animals and produce fertile offspring.


Christ was born son of God and son of Man. An incarnation (Christ) results from the crossing of God and human.

Similarly rather more negative incarnations resulted from the crossing of angels with humans (we might call them anti-christs). The resulting offspring were regarded as super-human in many respects.

Richard Amiel McGough
10-27-2011, 10:22 PM
Christ was born son of God and son of Man. An incarnation (Christ) results from the crossing of God and human.

Similarly rather more negative incarnations resulted from the crossing of angels with humans (we might call them anti-christs). The resulting offspring were regarded as super-human in many respects.
That sounds like a false analogy. Mary was supernaturally impregnated by the Holy Spirit. Unless you are a Mormon, there was no sexual intercourse involved. The theory about fallen angels impregnating women is entirely different. They did it through pseudo-natural sexual intercourse. This implies that God created the angels with the ability to breed with humans. Why would he do that? Where in the Bible does it say that?

Craig.Paardekooper
10-27-2011, 10:23 PM
The story about the loss of the book of the Law is one of the strangest stories in the Bible. How is possible that the people defined by the Torah could have completely forgotten about it??? It doesn't make any sense at all. It's similar to the problem with the fact that nobody was circumcised during the forty years in the desert. What's up with that??? Moses was leading them. Why didn't he tell them to obey the law? Why didn't God mention it? Something fishy is going on in these stories.



Things can be forgotten and buried over a single generation is people become apostate enough. Prior to Josiah, many of the people had turned to pagan forms of worship, and the Torah had fallen into neglect - so much so that even the manuscript was mislaid and hidden away in some vault.

Maybe the people were not circumcised in the desert because God had in mind to reject that generation anyway. None of them would see the promised land.

Richard Amiel McGough
10-27-2011, 11:01 PM
Things can be forgotten and buried over a single generation is people become apostate enough. Prior to Josiah, many of the people had turned to pagan forms of worship, and the Torah had fallen into neglect - so much so that even the manuscript was mislaid and hidden away in some vault.

Maybe the people were not circumcised in the desert because God had in mind to reject that generation anyway. None of them would see the promised land.
Concerning the missing Torah - yes, many people had turned away, but I don't see how that can explain the missing Torah because the prophets were prophesying and they frequently mentioned the it. For example, Isaiah prophesied during the time the law was supposed to be missing and he frequently mentions the law. He plays a big role in 2 Kings 19-20. He prophesied about a hundred years before Josiah and the "rediscovery" of the law.

I still don't understand why Moses or God would allow the children to go uncircumcised. The law says that the children would be "cut off" from Israel if they were not circumcised. It has nothing to do with the fact that their parents would not be allowed into the promised land.

gilgal
10-27-2011, 11:22 PM
Concerning the missing Torah - yes, many people had turned away, but I don't see how that can explain the missing Torah because the prophets were prophesying and they frequently mentioned the it. For example, Isaiah prophesied during the time the law was supposed to be missing and he frequently mentions the law. He plays a big role in 2 Kings 19-20. He prophesied about a hundred years before Josiah and the "rediscovery" of the law.

I still don't understand why Moses or God would allow the children to go uncircumcised. The law says that the children would be "cut off" from Israel if they were not circumcised. It has nothing to do with the fact that their parents would not be allowed into the promised land.
Actually which prophets mentioned it? Because most prophets were from before Josiah until Jeremiah. Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi are post Josiah. Refresh my memory but I hardly recall any quote from the Torah from any pre Josiah book. But the New Testament is flooded with quotes.

Also the uncircumcision in the wilderness probably shows that faith was what God was looking for in Israel. That's interesting. Moses wasn't even careful of himself being circumcised. And God almost killed him. That, I wonder why.

Richard Amiel McGough
10-27-2011, 11:53 PM
Actually which prophets mentioned it? Because most prophets were from before Josiah until Jeremiah. Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi are post Josiah. Refresh my memory but I hardly recall any quote from the Torah from any pre Josiah book. But the New Testament is flooded with quotes.

Also the uncircumcision in the wilderness probably shows that faith was what God was looking for in Israel. That's interesting. Moses wasn't even careful of himself being circumcised. And God almost killed him. That, I wonder why.
Isaiah mentions it frequently, and he prophesied about a hundred years before Josiah. And Micah too, he prophesied around the same time, during the reign of Hezekiah.

It would be an interesting study to trace out the references to the law through the Joshua to Kings. Of course, we know how Joshua begins:

Joshua 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
And ends:

Joshua 24:26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.
And then ... oh my! The word "Torah" does not occur again in any book until a single reference in 1 Kings:

1 Kings 2:1 Now the days of David drew nigh that he should die; and he charged Solomon his son, saying, 2 I go the way of all the earth: be thou strong therefore, and shew thyself a man; 3 And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:
And then it is mentioned a few times in 2 Kings chapters 10, 14, 17, 21 and then it is "found" again in chapter 22:

2 Kings 22:8 And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it.
This is just a little too wierd. It's nothing like what I would imagine if God were really guiding his people through their whole history from Judges to Kings! This makes no sense at all.

As for circumcision - I don't see how God looking for faith would mean that he would overlook the very "sign of the covenant" that he commanded to Abraham.

gilgal
10-28-2011, 01:43 PM
Isaiah mentions it frequently, and he prophesied about a hundred years before Josiah. And Micah too, he prophesied around the same time, during the reign of Hezekiah.

It would be an interesting study to trace out the references to the law through the Joshua to Kings. Of course, we know how Joshua begins:

Joshua 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
And ends:

Joshua 24:26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.
And then ... oh my! The word "Torah" does not occur again in any book until a single reference in 1 Kings:

1 Kings 2:1 Now the days of David drew nigh that he should die; and he charged Solomon his son, saying, 2 I go the way of all the earth: be thou strong therefore, and shew thyself a man; 3 And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:
And then it is mentioned a few times in 2 Kings chapters 10, 14, 17, 21 and then it is "found" again in chapter 22:

2 Kings 22:8 And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it.
This is just a little too wierd. It's nothing like what I would imagine if God were really guiding his people through their whole history from Judges to Kings! This makes no sense at all.

As for circumcision - I don't see how God looking for faith would mean that he would overlook the very "sign of the covenant" that he commanded to Abraham.
Good point concerning the Law. Maybe it was lost when the temple needed renovation in 2Kings 11. Or maybe it was hidden when there was a war. They say that Jeremiah hid the ark of the covenant before Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the temple.

Richard Amiel McGough
10-28-2011, 01:57 PM
Good point concerning the Law. Maybe it was lost when the temple needed renovation in 2Kings 11. Or maybe it was hidden when there was a war. They say that Jeremiah hid the ark of the covenant before Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the temple.
It seems like it was lost beginning of Judges, since that's the last times it's mentioned before 1 Kings. I don't see how renovating the Temple could lead to its loss.

This seems to me to be an exceedingly signifcant fact - it justifies the skeptical scholastic argument that the law was written at the time of Josiah, or even Ezra, and then insterted into the history.

gilgal
10-28-2011, 02:24 PM
It seems like it was lost beginning of Judges, since that's the last times it's mentioned before 1 Kings. I don't see how renovating the Temple could lead to its loss.

This seems to me to be an exceedingly signifcant fact - it justifies the skeptical scholastic argument that the law was written at the time of Josiah, or even Ezra, and then insterted into the history.
I'm assuming that if a written copy of the law or the bible is not available maybe that's when God reveals himself in dreams and visions. I was asked the how can a tribe in an island believe in God or Jesus when there was no missionary who visited them? But I would wonder if such a thing is possible or is that everyone in the world has heard the gospel?

Richard Amiel McGough
10-28-2011, 05:30 PM
I'm assuming that if a written copy of the law or the bible is not available maybe that's when God reveals himself in dreams and visions. I was asked the how can a tribe in an island believe in God or Jesus when there was no missionary who visited them? But I would wonder if such a thing is possible or is that everyone in the world has heard the gospel?
Well, if the Torah was missing for hundreds of years during the history of Israel, why should I think that the God of the Torah was real at all? Doesn't it make more sense to think that the religion was made up at a much later time? Occam's Razor.

gilgal
10-28-2011, 08:41 PM
Well, if the Torah was missing for hundreds of years during the history of Israel, why should I think that the God of the Torah was real at all? Doesn't it make more sense to think that the religion was made up at a much later time? Occam's Razor.
God has his timing. Before showing Egypt great wonders and miracles and the parting of the Red Sea, don't forget, he was silent for 400 years. But he did promise to Abraham that they will serve the Egyptians for the same time period.

Actually Messiah's "cutting off" was also timed in Daniel for about 400 years (Daniel 9) from the Babylonian captivity (490 years to be precise - minus about 70 years for the timing of the last prophet Malachi who prophesied).

God wasn't that close to Isaac or Jacob as he was towards Abraham. I think I know why God wasn't as close to Jacob though.

Just as Jacob tricked his father and robbed the blessing that ought to be given to Esau by wearing goat's hair, he was tricked by his sons thinking Joseph was dead when his sons dipped their brother's coat in a goat's blood. So for the rest of his life until he went and died in Egypt he was in sorrow thinking that his son was dead.

So Jacob didn't get away from his crimes because he had faith. He had to pay the price. And so God was silent to him concerning Joseph. He spoke to him through Joseph's dream that Joseph was meant to be a ruler.

Craig.Paardekooper
10-29-2011, 01:08 PM
Well, if the Torah was missing for hundreds of years during the history of Israel, why should I think that the God of the Torah was real at all? Doesn't it make more sense to think that the religion was made up at a much later time? Occam's Razor.


Hi RAM,

Your argument is an argument from silence. The absence of a mention of the Book of the Law between Joshua and David does not mean that the Book of the Law did not exist and was not revered. It simply means that the writers of the books between Joshua and David did not feel the need to refer to it in their writings.

Also, after Solomon the 10 northern tribes split off and created their own religion centred on the captal of Samaria. So they would not be expected to mention the Book of the Law.

Isiah preached from 741 B.C. onwards - that's about 200 years after the 10 northern tribes split off. He mentions the books of the law often.

Infact Isaiah relates that in 721B.C. the 10 northern tribes where judged and destroyed by the Assyrians - having existed for 770 years since the exodus - whilst the 2 southern tribes where spared from destruction in 701 B.C. and continued to exist for a further 770 years. So we see the balance of justice - judgement and forgiveness - a literal embodiment of the Law - showing that it is more than just a book - but is the way God shaped Jewish history.

Anyway, the Bible clearly states that the reason for the Book of the Law being "lost" was because of the mass apostasy of the 2 southern tribes immediately prior to Josiah.

It should also be recalled that Josiah and his reformations were specifically prophecied about 350 years earlier. Here is a quote from my book - "One God Many Faces" -


TWO MEN BEFORE THEIR TIME
Only twice in the whole Bible does God predict the proper name of a person before they
are born. In both cases God also predicts the specific events surrounding these two
people, and the specific things they will do. The first name is JOSIAH. The second name
is that of CYRUS. Both have an interesting connection to the events of the Captivity.

JOSIAH
During the reigns of king Saul, king David and king Solomon, Israel was a united
kingdom. However, after the reign of king Solomon ended (in 977 B.C.) Israel became
divided into 2 separate kingdoms - the Northern Kingdom with it's capital at Samaria, and
the Kingdom of Judah with it's capital at Jerusalem. There was a king of the Northern
Kingdom - named Jeroboam, and a king of the Kingdom of Judah - named Rehoboam.

Division of the Kingdom After Solomon
The Northern Kingdom King is Jeroboam Capital at Samaria
The Kingdom of Judah King is Rehoboam Capital at Jerusalem

There was still only one religion, the worship of YWHW, and the centre of this religion
was at the Temple of Jerusalem . However, Jeroboam was worried because he believed
that if his people continued to worship at Jerusalem they would return to serving
Rehoboam. So to avoid this Jeroboam set about creating a new religion with a new centre
of worship - so his people would no longer have to go to Jerusalem.

So Jeroboam made 2 gold calves, and set one up at Bethel and the other up at Dan. He
established a new religion with new idols, new shrines, new priests, new festivals. Then a
prophet from Judah came to the shrine at Bethel while king Jeroboam was worshipping
there.

By the word of the LORD a man of God came from Judah to Bethel as Jeroboam
was standing at the altar to make an offering. The man of God cried out against
the altar by the word of the LORD:
"O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: "A son named Josiah will be born to
the house of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests of the high places who
now make offerings here, and human bones will be burnt on you."
That same day the man of God gave a sign: "This is the sign the LORD has
declared: the altar will be split apart and the ashes on it will be poured out."
9
When king Jeroboam heard what the man of God cried out against the altar at
Bethel, he stretched out his hand from the altar and said, "Seize him!". But the
hand he stretched out towards the man shrivelled up, so that he could not pull it
back. Also the altar was split apart and it's ashes poured out according to the sign
given by the man of God by the word of the LORD.
Then the king said to the man of God, "Intercede with the LORD your God and
pray for me that my hand may be restored." So the man of God interceded with
the LORD, and the king's hand was restored and became as it was before.
1 KINGS 13 v 1-6

This prophecy achieved a remarkable fulfillment 350 years later when for the first time a
king named JOSIAH became king of Judah. When Josiah was 8 years old he became
king, and he reigned at Jerusalem for 31 years. In the 18th year of Josiah's reign (622
B.C.) Josiah's officials discovered the Book of the Law - and Josiah read it and realized
how much Israel had disobeyed God's laws. He humbled himself before the LORD, and
became determined to purge Israel of it's idolatry.
Josiah sent his officials to the prophetess Huldah in Jerusalem to enquire of her what the
discovery of the Book of the Law meant. She gave them this prophecy -
"This is what the LORD says: I am going to bring disaster on this place and it's
people, according to everything written in the Book the king of Judah has read.
Because they have forsaken me and burned incense to other gods and provoked
me to anger by all the idols their hands have made, my anger will burn against
this place and will not be quenched."
"This is what the LORD, the God of Israel says concerning the words you heard:
Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the LORD
when you heard what I have spoken against this place and it's people, that they
would become accursed and laid waste, and because you tore your robes and
wept in my presence, I have heard you declares the LORD. Therefore I will gather
you to your fathers, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the
disaster I am going to bring on this place."
2 KINGS Chapter 22

King Josiah carried out a complete purge of idolatry both in the Kingdom of Judah and in
the Northern Kingdom. It was the greatest purge that Israel had ever seen and would ever
see. He removed all the idols from the Temple of Jerusalem and burned them outside
Jerusalem. He also destroyed all the "high places" or altars throughout all of Israel where
worship of the idols took place and slaughtered all the idolatrous priests. At Bethel people
had been buried near to the altars (buried on holy ground they believed). Josiah dug up
these bodies and burned them on the altars, thus fulfilling the prophecies made 350 years
earlier. 2 Kings chapter 23 describes the purge of Josiah.


Well, if the Torah was missing for hundreds of years during the history of Israel, why should I think that the God of the Torah was real at all? .

Hundreds of years? Where does it say that? The whole nation had fallen into idolatry - so the book of the law had been discarded - but this may have been only over a single generation. Anyway, the number of years between Isaiah preaching to Hezekiah in 701 B.C. and Josiah in 622 B.C. is only 79 years. So the law was only lost for one generation.

"Why should I think that the God of the Torah is real atall?" This conclusion simply does not follow logically from the fact that Israel discarded the Book because of idolatry. Faulty logic.

Infact, God used this very situation to demonstrate that He is real - by prophecying the reformations of Josiah 350 years before their time.

gilgal
10-29-2011, 02:46 PM
Hi RAM,

Your argument is an argument from silence. The absence of a mention of the Book of the Law between Joshua and David does not mean that the Book of the Law did not exist and was not revered. It simply means that the writers of the books between Joshua and David did not feel the need to refer to it in their writings.

Also, after Solomon the 10 northern tribes split off and created their own religion centred on the captal of Samaria. So they would not be expected to mention the Book of the Law.

Isiah preached from 741 B.C. onwards - that's about 200 years after the 10 northern tribes split off. He mentions the books of the law often.

Infact Isaiah relates that in 721B.C. the 10 northern tribes where judged and destroyed by the Assyrians - having existed for 770 years since the exodus - whilst the 2 southern tribes where spared from destruction in 701 B.C. and continued to exist for a further 770 years. So we see the balance of justice - judgement and forgiveness - a literal embodiment of the Law - showing that it is more than just a book - but is the way God shaped Jewish history.

Anyway, the Bible clearly states that the reason for the Book of the Law being "lost" was because of the mass apostasy of the 2 southern tribes immediately prior to Josiah.

It should also be recalled that Josiah and his reformations were specifically prophecied about 350 years earlier. Here is a quote from my book - "One God Many Faces" -





Hundreds of years? Where does it say that? The whole nation had fallen into idolatry - so the book of the law had been discarded - but this may have been only over a single generation. Anyway, the number of years between Isaiah preaching to Hezekiah in 701 B.C. and Josiah in 622 B.C. is only 79 years. So the law was only lost for one generation.

"Why should I think that the God of the Torah is real atall?" This conclusion simply does not follow logically from the fact that Israel discarded the Book because of idolatry. Faulty logic.

Infact, God used this very situation to demonstrate that He is real - by prophecying the reformations of Josiah 350 years before their time.
Good explanation. SO the discovery of the Law showed Josiah to know what to do with the bones of the priests of Baal. And it was prophesied from the beginning of the falling away of Jeroboam and the Northern Kingdom.

I wonder if they made multiple copies of the Law or could it be that the only Law was in the Ark of The Covenant in the Temple of the LORD.

But the existence of the prophets, I think was there because the Law wasn't available to the hearers at that moment.

Richard Amiel McGough
10-29-2011, 05:52 PM
Hi RAM,

Your argument is an argument from silence. The absence of a mention of the Book of the Law between Joshua and David does not mean that the Book of the Law did not exist and was not revered. It simply means that the writers of the books between Joshua and David did not feel the need to refer to it in their writings.

Hey there Craig, :yo:

Glad you dropped in.

You are correct that it would be an "argument from silence" if I said that the Torah was missing merely because it was not mentioned. But that's not what I said. The reason I looked to see if it was mentioned is because 2 Kings 22:8 says that it had been discovered after being missing for an unstated amount of time. Now you are correct, we don't know how long it was missing. Does it not seem natural then to go looking in the text to see when it was last mentioned? Personally, I was quite surprized to find that the central document that defined the relationship between Isreal and her God was not mentioned once in the history that spanned hundreds of years from Judges up to 1 Kings, and then it is only mentioned once in 1 Kings. This is why I said that the law was "missing" for hundreds of years. It is a fact that it was missing from the text for that period, and the text implies that even the priests didn't know here it was until it was discovered in 2 Kings 22:8. There is a clue in the text that suggests it was missing for at least two generations:

2 Kings 22:11 And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes. 12 And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah a servant of the king's, saying, 13 Go ye, enquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us.
I think the Christian position would be as you suggest, the Law was lost during the wicked reign of Manasseh. But there is no evidence for this in the text, so it's just an assumption.

And one other odd point - it was during this time when the law was lost that the Word of the Lord was given through a female prophet!

2 Kings 22:14 and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college) and they communed with her. 15 And she said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Tell the man that sent you to me, 16 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:
Given all these oddities and lacunas, I see no justification for making any assumptions just because they fit your preconceptions of what the history of Israel "should" be.



Anyway, the Bible clearly states that the reason for the Book of the Law being "lost" was because of the mass apostasy of the 2 southern tribes immediately prior to Josiah.

Where does it say that? And besides, how does that relate to the fact that it was missing from the souther Kingdom of Judah?



Hundreds of years? Where does it say that? The whole nation had fallen into idolatry - so the book of the law had been discarded - but this may have been only over a single generation. Anyway, the number of years between Isaiah preaching to Hezekiah in 701 B.C. and Josiah in 622 B.C. is only 79 years. So the law was only lost for one generation.

Or three generations if you think of a generation as 20 years. The lifespan of one generation was around 70, but the generations overlap. Think of child, parent, grandparent. That's three generations, right?



"Why should I think that the God of the Torah is real atall?" This conclusion simply does not follow logically from the fact that Israel discarded the Book because of idolatry. Faulty logic.

It is extremely curious that the Torah, the document defining the relation between Israel and God, should be missing from their sacred history for the hundreds of years from Judges to Kings. Therefore, this naturally brings up the question of whether or not the Torah, and hence the god that it proclaims, are real, or if the sacred history was composed before the Law was written (which is the position of many modern scholars). There is no faulty logic in asking that question!

I think you should be a little more careful with your assertions of "logical fallacies." I'm not a schoolboy so easily intimated. I know both logic and
the Bible. So let's talk like men with understanding. OK?



Infact, God used this very situation to demonstrate that He is real - by prophecying the reformations of Josiah 350 years before their time.
How do you know that prophecy, and the Torah, were not written after the fact? Do you simpy assume whatever is written is true? If so, how do you justify such an assumption?

Great chatting!

Richard

gilgal
10-29-2011, 08:47 PM
Hey there Craig, :yo:

Glad you dropped in.

You are correct that it would be an "argument from silence" if I said that the Torah was missing merely because it was not mentioned. But that's not what I said. The reason I looked to see if it was mentioned is because 2 Kings 22:8 says that it had been discovered after being missing for an unstated amount of time. Now you are correct, we don't know how long it was missing. Does it not seem natural then to go looking in the text to see when it was last mentioned? Personally, I was quite surprized to find that the central document that defined the relationship between Isreal and her God was not mentioned once in the history that spanned hundreds of years from Judges up to 1 Kings, and then it is only mentioned once in 1 Kings. This is why I said that the law was "missing" for hundreds of years. It is a fact that it was missing from the text for that period, and the text implies that even the priests didn't know here it was until it was discovered in 2 Kings 22:8. There is a clue in the text that suggests it was missing for at least two generations:

2 Kings 22:11 And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes. 12 And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah a servant of the king's, saying, 13 Go ye, enquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us.
I think the Christian position would be as you suggest, the Law was lost during the wicked reign of Manasseh. But there is no evidence for this in the text, so it's just an assumption.

And one other odd point - it was during this time when the law was lost that the Word of the Lord was given through a female prophet!

2 Kings 22:14 and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college) and they communed with her. 15 And she said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Tell the man that sent you to me, 16 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:
Given all these oddities and lacunas, I see no justification for making any assumptions just because they fit your preconceptions of what the history of Israel "should" be.


Where does it say that? And besides, how does that relate to the fact that it was missing from the souther Kingdom of Judah?


Or three generations if you think of a generation as 20 years. The lifespan of one generation was around 70, but the generations overlap. Think of child, parent, grandparent. That's three generations, right?


It is extremely curious that the Torah, the document defining the relation between Israel and God, should be missing from their sacred history for the hundreds of years from Judges to Kings. Therefore, this naturally brings up the question of whether or not the Torah, and hence the god that it proclaims, are real, or if the sacred history was composed before the Law was written (which is the position of many modern scholars). There is no faulty logic in asking that question!

I think you should be a little more careful with your assertions of "logical fallacies." I'm not a schoolboy so easily intimated. I know both logic and
the Bible. So let's talk like men with understanding. OK?


How do you know that prophecy, and the Torah, were not written after the fact? Do you simpy assume whatever is written is true? If so, how do you justify such an assumption?

Great chatting!

Richard
God holds us responsible according to our knowledge towards him. Just as the sun shines brighter than the moon I think the knowledge we have today is brighter than what we had 400 years back.

My point is that you would wonder how after an exodus wilderness experience with miracles would follow an abandonment of God in the book of Judges. Could it be that the Law wasn't being read? or it wasn't fully written or available to them? But God dealt with them accordingly.

Nothing's changed today. Despite the knowledge we've fallen back as well.

Craig.Paardekooper
10-29-2011, 09:48 PM
The Bible only says that the Book of the Law was lost during the period prior to Josiah. It does not say that the Book of the Law was lost during the period of the Judges.

And the apostacy prior to Josiah is a sufficient causal reason to explain that loss. This is not an assumption on my part.

Of course, the question of the dating of the Torah is based on many more arguments than the mere absence of it's mention during the period of the Judges. It is a truism that The Book of the Law contains laws - and there is plenty of mention of the adherence of the people to these laws throughout Jewish history.

Here is a quote from BeingJewish.com


The Samaritans learned the Torah from the Ten Tribes sometime around 550 B.C.E. So, by then the Chumash and Joshua were already written. Some of the Kohanim of the Ten Tribes taught it to them. Any time after that, the Samaritans would not have accepted the Torah from the people of Judah, because of the Samaritans' hatred for them. So, since both the Jews and the Samaritans have the Chumash, we know that the Chumash had to have been written some time before 550 B.C.E., before the two groups stopped having contact with each other.

This also proves that the Torah could not have been written during the time of the two kingdoms. Since the Ten Tribes taught the Chumash to the Samaritans, that means the Ten Tribes had to have had the Chumash before they split off from the other two Tribes. During all the time that they were split, neither kingdom would never have taken Torah from the other.

Yet the later Books, written by Prophets among the two Tribes in Judah show numerous examples of how the Ten Tribes kept the Laws of the Torah (with occasional lapses), and that they had the Torah (see, for example, I Kings 21:13; II Kings 4:23, 7:3; Hosea 4:6; 8:1, 8:12; Amos 8:5, et. al.).

So, during the time of King Solomon, before the breakup of the nation into two kingdoms, the Chumash must have already existed. But they must have already existed earlier, or the Ten Tribes would never have accepted them. They took them because before they broke off these Books had already been fully accepted by all Israel.

2,800 Years Ago
King David
Could the Torah have been written during the time of King Solomon, or during the reign of his father, King David? Definitely not.

Consider what the Torah says about the nations of Moab.

The Torah (Deut. 23:4-7) says that a man from the nation of Moab may never marry a Jewish woman, even if he converts to Judaism. Even the descendant of a convert from Moab may never marry a Jewish woman. This was because of the way they treated us when we passed near their land on the way to the Land of Israel. They did not come forward to offer us bread and water, as was their custom. The women of Moab, however, after conversion to Judaism, are not forbidden to marry a Jewish man, because it was not the custom of the Moabite women to meet travelers with bread and water, and also because they had no connection with the attempt to curse Israel.

Now, you may remember that King David was a descendent from Ruth, a Moabite woman who converted to Judaism. You can imagine the trouble that must have caused. As a matter of fact, the Rabbis tells us that King David's enemies certainly tried to get a lot of mileage out of that, and tried to claim, falsely, that a converted Moabite woman was also forbidden to marry a Jew.

Now, wouldn't it simply have been easier for King David, if he wrote the Torah, to leave out that Law? It does not seem at all logical that King David would have written this in the Torah, or that any of the people of his time would have done that.

Therefore, that dates the Torah to at least before the time of King David, who was born in 836 B.C.E. That's already 2836 years ago.

(By the way, King David and King Solomon are both mentioned in the history of the Phoenicians and the Tyrenes, according to Josephus. Both the Phoenicians and the Tyrenes did business with the Israelites during those eras.)

2,900 Years Ago
The Judges
Perhaps the Torah was written just before King David was born, during the era of the Judges? That, too, cannot be. The Torah says that it is forbidden to wage war against the nations of Moab and Ammon (Deuteronomy 2:19). Yet the Judges all the way from after Joshua to King David (inclusive) fought with those nations! Ammon invaded Israel during the time of Yiftach the Judge (around 970 B.C.E.), and Moab oppressed them during the time of Ehud the Judge (around 1160 B.C.E.). They had to fight with them out of self-defense, so they would never have included such a Law in the Torah had they composed it!

The Israelites spent a great deal of time and energy, and lost many good people defending themselves against those nations. Would the Prophets or Judges or anyone of that time have written a Law stating that it was forbidden to attack Moab or Amon if they were inventing the Torah? So the Torah could not have been written during the time of the Judges either.

Therefore the Torah predates the Judges, and come from the time of Moses and Joshua! That means that we have had the Torah for 3,313 years. And therefore, the Torah tells us that Moses told the Children of Israel:

Only take heed and watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not forget the things that your eyes saw. Do not let this memory leave your hearts, all the days of your lives. Teach your children, and your children's children about the day you stood before Hashem your G-d at Horeb (Deut. 4:9-10).
(Horeb is another name for Mount Sinai.)

Richard Amiel McGough
10-31-2011, 11:00 AM
The Bible only says that the Book of the Law was lost during the period prior to Josiah. It does not say that the Book of the Law was lost during the period of the Judges.

And the apostacy prior to Josiah is a sufficient causal reason to explain that loss. This is not an assumption on my part.

Yes, the apostasy during Manasseh's reign is sufficient, but that doesn't mean it is correct. The fact that the Torah is missing from hundreds of years of Israel's sacred history is sufficient to raise the question of the factual validity of the whole story, as discussed previously.



Of course, the question of the dating of the Torah is based on many more arguments than the mere absence of it's mention during the period of the Judges. It is a truism that The Book of the Law contains laws - and there is plenty of mention of the adherence of the people to these laws throughout Jewish history.

Here is a quote from BeingJewish.com
That is a very interesting series of arguments. But they seem full of presumptions designed to arrive at the desired conclusion. This doesn't mean they are wrong - each needs to be reviewed. But they do give me the feeling of a profound bias in favor of an ancient Torah rather than an objective argument that would stand up under skeptical scrutiny. I've seen enough biased arguments in my day so now I can smell them a mile away. All religious groups use arguments like this to "prove" their positions to themselves.

So let's review them. The argument begins with the statement: The Samaritans learned the Torah from the Ten Tribes sometime around 550 B.C.E. Where did they get that date? What happened in 550 B.C.E.? They don't say. It is mere assertion. And all the other arguments depend upon this first statement. Why then would they fail to support the most important statement in their whole chain of arguments? The argument begins with a profound failure.

So let's start with that first statement. Do we really know anything about when the Samaritans learned the Torah?

Great chatting,

Richard

Craig.Paardekooper
11-04-2011, 10:46 AM
So let's review them. The argument begins with the statement: The Samaritans learned the Torah from the Ten Tribes sometime around 550 B.C.E. Where did they get that date? What happened in 550 B.C.E.? They don't say. It is mere assertion. And all the other arguments depend upon this first statement. Why then would they fail to support the most important statement in their whole chain of arguments? The argument begins with a profound failure.



Why is it a profound failure????? I don't necessarily agree with the quote. I was just giving an example of other types of evidence that go far beyond your argument from silence in providing data for determining the age of the Torah.

Right now, I don't have alot of time to dig out all the evidence for you Richard.

gilgal
11-11-2011, 07:10 AM
Why is it a profound failure????? I don't necessarily agree with the quote. I was just giving an example of other types of evidence that go far beyond your argument from silence in providing data for determining the age of the Torah.

Right now, I don't have alot of time to dig out all the evidence for you Richard.
It seems to me that Job being written most probably before Abraham mentions angels and Satan communicating which is unusual in the other books of the bible. The book of Enoch is written in a similar way, which I would assume it was written before Abraham.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-11-2011, 11:01 AM
It seems to me that Job being written most probably before Abraham mentions angels and Satan communicating which is unusual in the other books of the bible. The book of Enoch is written in a similar way, which I would assume it was written before Abraham.
Why would you assume the book of Enoch was written before Abraham? And for that matter, why would you think it is legitimate at all?

gilgal
11-11-2011, 10:36 PM
Why would you assume the book of Enoch was written before Abraham? And for that matter, why would you think it is legitimate at all?
I haven't read it entirely because I wonder how much of it is useful to us today? But part of it ... there are conversation among angels. Am I correct?

Craig.Paardekooper
09-23-2012, 04:43 AM
There is some evidence that human lifespan was greater in the distant past. I published some of this evidence in one of my books here - http://www.craigdemo.co.uk/enochvid2.htm

Well, it so happens that scientists now have samples of Neanderthal DNA. These are the oldest remains of human DNA that exist. If Neanderthals lived considerably longer than modern humans, then we should be able to see this difference in their DNA.

By comparing modern DNA with Neanderthal dNA we will be able to find the DNA that made them live so much longer.

Craig.Paardekooper
10-01-2012, 04:29 PM
Based on the Genealogy in Genesis, there were 1656 years from Adam to the Flood = 777.77 x 777.7 days

And there were 666 years from the ascension of Enoch until the Flood. This is interesting because it means that the offspring of the Nephilim reigned on earth for 666 years exactly prior to the Flood

It is also interesting that Enoch's ascension occured 990 after Adam.

I believe that Genesis undoubtedly contains a hidden message centred around these numbers.

Craig.Paardekooper
10-25-2012, 11:25 AM
The general theme of my book - "Enoch - an essay on angels" is that things were better in the past - creatures lived longer, were larger and stronger, perhaps even more intelligent, and the environment was richer and more supportive of life.

My argument is that things have gone downhill. From an initial paradise on earth, things have degenerated. Things are moving in the direction of increasing enropy.

So perhaps even though we struggle with and grasp hold of life - as if this is the only possible existence - infact ultimately this is impossible. All life within the flow of time is destined for decay, and oblivion. Only life outside of time is eternal.

As things wind down further, I believe that pleasures we take for granted will become rarer and rarer with each passing generation.

The scientist Eddington referred to entropy as times's arrow. Time always moves in the direction of increasing entropy, increasing disorder and increasing decay. Moving from initial paradise to final hell.

So, Hell might be thought of as the final result of existence within time - I find this interesting. Buddhism is about breaking the chain of suffering, so that you nolonger need to be reborn within time.

The gist of what I am saying is that there was a primordial heaven on earth, and since then things have declined considerably. Now we all struggle to accumulate the things we want, and even our basic food supplies are only guaranteed by the continuous suffering of millions of animals in our factory farms. The pleasures we have are based upon an immense amount of suffering that is hidden from our eyes.

If the decline that I chronicled in my "Enoch" book - if this decline continues then ultimately life on earth will become intollerable - a kind of "hell on earth". So we dont have to go looking for hell in some other realm or dimension - it will be right here on earth at some future time.

I just find the idea intriguing that earth started as a paradise and will end as a hell - and we are all here during the transition period.

sylvius
10-25-2012, 02:00 PM
Based on the Genealogy in Genesis, there were 1656 years from Adam to the Flood = 777.77 x 777.7 days

And there were 666 years from the ascension of Enoch until the Flood. This is interesting because it means that the offspring of the Nephilim reigned on earth for 666 years exactly prior to the Flood

It is also interesting that Enoch's ascension occured 990 after Adam.

I believe that Genesis undoubtedly contains a hidden message centred around these numbers.

The world was created in six days and on the seventh day God rested.

Creation was perfected with the creation of man, on the sixth day.

It reads: "And it was evening and it was morning, the sixth day".

In the account of the seventh day this formula is missing.

Which means that the seventh day is our ongoing reality, the world of time and space.

That it goes on is a miracle, miracle of time. Any moment could be the last moment, but it goes on in the next.

666 is gematria of "yom shishi", sixth day, while Genesis 1:31 has "yom hashishi", the sixth day, with which it is connected with the seventh day by the name of God hidden in the initial letters of "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamayim" (last two words of Genesis 1:31 and first two words of Genesis 2:1) (the other day-indications do without a definite article = Hebrew letter "hey")

sylvius
10-26-2012, 02:23 AM
so you might see the total time of world history as 1656 years = 777.77 x 777.7 days

The end coming after 1656 years.

Just Noach finding favor (= "chen") in the eyes of the Lord (Hashem whose place is the completion of the world)

Ark = "teivah", means (also) written word. It transcends history.

1656 = 8 x 207,
207 = "or"= light

1656 is also "full value" of Tarshish ( "tav-reish-shin-yod-shin" = 406+510+360+20+360)

Tarshish = end of the world, Jonah flying to it away from the face of the Lord.

1656 = 2 x 828

828 gematria of "Tsaf'nat Pa'neach", the name Joseph got from Pharao, "explainer of hidden things", "m'galeh mistarim", having same gematria 828.

A strange thing is gematria of the name Noach, 58, same as of "chen", favor, grace, in connection with time.
His name said to be fulfilled at the moment the ark came to rest at the mountains of Ararat, Genesis 8:4, "vatanach hateivah".

This being somewhere in the year 1657.

3,5 x 1657 = 5799,5 = almost 5800.

5800 / 3,5 = 1657.14285714

duxrow
10-26-2012, 07:12 AM
1656 = 2 x 828

828 gematria of "Tsaf'nat Pa'neach", the name Joseph got from Pharao, "explainer of hidden things", "m'galeh mistarim", having same gematria 828.

A strange thing is gematria of the name Noach, 58, same as of "chen", favor, grace, in connection with time.
His name said to be fulfilled at the moment the ark came to rest at the mountains of Ararat, Genesis 8:4, "vatanach hateivah".

This being somewhere in the year 1657.

:ranger:Near the year when Bible first Published! Psalm 68:11 So we don't have to rely on what 'they' say,
but can have it in our own hot little hands, and understand God's Word for ourself!

duxrow
10-26-2012, 11:17 AM
The world was created in six days and on the seventh day God rested.

Creation was perfected with the creation of man, on the sixth day.
It reads: "And it was evening and it was morning, the sixth day".
In the account of the seventh day this formula is missing.
Which means that the seventh day is our ongoing reality, the world of time and space.
That it goes on is a miracle, miracle of time. Any moment could be the last moment, but it goes on in the next.

:yes:Agree, Sylvius -- Life goes on; for a while yet anyway.
a. The 2nd Enoch was generation #7 (Jude confirms).
b. The 2nd Lamech was generation #9. (Genesis 5 says so...)
c. The 2nd Jacob was generation #63. (From Matt 1:16)

The first ten generations: Genesis 5.
The second ten generations: 1Chr1:24-27.
The third ten generations: Ruth4 (So David is generation #33).

Now are we having fun ??:winking0071:

sylvius
02-12-2013, 02:21 PM
Based on the Genealogy in Genesis, there were 1656 years from Adam to the Flood = 777.77 x 777.7 days

And there were 666 years from the ascension of Enoch until the Flood. This is interesting because it means that the offspring of the Nephilim reigned on earth for 666 years exactly prior to the Flood

It is also interesting that Enoch's ascension occured 990 after Adam.

I believe that Genesis undoubtedly contains a hidden message centred around these numbers.


Only that Enoch's ascension occurred in the year 987 ...

You can reckon after:

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0105.htm