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alec cotton
08-25-2008, 10:37 AM
Pontiffs,Parsons ,Preachers and pastors perform on platform,podium,pulpit and pedestal . They blow a lot of hot air about tithing, but it is obvious that they are incapable of engaging in rational thought. I wish that they would take note of the sage who who said'Engage brain before operating gob' These buffoons claim that all Christians have an obligation to put a tenth of their income on the collection plate. When I hear them ranting ,my blood pressure goes sky high and the bile rises in my throat. Of course you can't answer back because they are standing six feet above contradiction. If it was possible to confront him (or her) I would say', Now look here mister preacher!: you said that I should give a tenth of my earnings to God. Tell me how.' His answer would be 'put it on the church collection plate.' I would say 'You mean the Roman church ,the spiritualist church,the Mormon,the Jehovah's witnesses,the moonies the loonies?.' Of course the question cannot be answered with any degree of honesty. I'll try another tack. 'O.K. Pastor pasderbuck,supposing that I am gullible enough to swallow your proposal. How do I calculate it?. Do I use my gross earnings,my net earnings or my pocket money?. You see ,I earn £210 per week and the government takes three tenths in stoppages for income tax,health insurance and so on. That leaves me with £150 You want £20 and the council want £20 in council tax. I haven't enough left to live on' . Of course ,at this stage the preacher who was so strident on the platform starts to hum and ha and bluff and bluster and starts back peddling . Now I am not averse to tithing What I do object to is making it a condition of membership or salvation. John Hagee was spouting the other day on this very subject. He was suggesting that it was an investment and you will get back ten fold what you give. He is so fond of quoting 'You will drink from wells you never dug. You will live in houses that you never built. You will have vineyards you never planted. I want to yell out ' Who is going to dig,plant and build?. Who is going to do the dirty work in your Utopia?'. Now if you will excuse me I will find a quiet corner and tear my hair out.
ALEC

Brother Les
08-27-2008, 10:41 AM
alec cotton

Pontiffs,Parsons ,Preachers and pastors perform on platform,podium,pulpit and pedestal . They blow a lot of hot air about tithing, but it is obvious that they are incapable of engaging in rational thought. I wish that they would take note of the sage who who said'Engage brain before operating gob' These buffoons claim that all Christians have an obligation to put a tenth of their income on the collection plate. When I hear them ranting ,my blood pressure goes sky high and the bile rises in my throat. Of course you can't answer back because they are standing six feet above contradiction. If it was possible to confront him (or her) I would say', Now look here mister preacher!: you said that I should give a tenth of my earnings to God. Tell me how.' His answer would be 'put it on the church collection plate.' I would say 'You mean the Roman church ,the spiritualist church,the Mormon,the Jehovah's witnesses,the moonies the loonies?.' Of course the question cannot be answered with any degree of honesty. I'll try another tack. 'O.K. Pastor pasderbuck,supposing that I am gullible enough to swallow your proposal. How do I calculate it?. Do I use my gross earnings,my net earnings or my pocket money?. You see ,I earn £210 per week and the government takes three tenths in stoppages for income tax,health insurance and so on. That leaves me with £150 You want £20 and the council want £20 in council tax. I haven't enough left to live on' . Of course ,at this stage the preacher who was so strident on the platform starts to hum and ha and bluff and bluster and starts back peddling . Now I am not averse to tithing What I do object to is making it a condition of membership or salvation. John Hagee was spouting the other day on this very subject. He was suggesting that it was an investment and you will get back ten fold what you give. He is so fond of quoting 'You will drink from wells you never dug. You will live in houses that you never built. You will have vineyards you never planted. I want to yell out ' Who is going to dig,plant and build?. Who is going to do the dirty work in your Utopia?'. Now if you will excuse me I will find a quiet corner and tear my hair out.
ALEC

Why are you 'gullible'...? Because 'you' and so many others are living in the 'old' creation....and 'think' (-still-) that 'old creation' rules apply..

John Hagee is still living and thinking Mosaic Age context and fools thousands of other to believe in that context. You 'feel' that 'something' is not 'right'.... Your 'feeling' is correct. You Are Being Lied To and being 'ripped off' and You are letting 'them'....




Is Tithing Biblical?

Is tithing Biblical? Sure, if you happen to be a non-Christian Jew who is still under the Old Testament law. But tithing is not Biblical for Christians.

As shocking as this may sound, tithing is a literal fraud (mostly unintentional) that has been perpetrated for many years upon most of Christianity in general. Christians have been literally robbed by people that are so deceived in this area that they think it is God’s will and mandate for them to do so. Very few modern tithe teachers realize that they have no rights whatsoever to exact a tithe from Christians. And very few are open to a warning on the subject. Many have become so entangled in 'needing' this money, among other things, to pay massive building debts (debts they had no Biblical right to incur in the first place).

Tithing is strictly for the non-Christian Jew and many Jewish scholars will gladly tell you this. Jewish people who have become Christians (Judeo Christians or Messianic Jews) are actually free from the tithe and from all Old Testament ceremonial law although some of them may not realize this. While the moral law and much of the civil law remains (such as in ethical standards), Christians are not under the ceremonial law of the Old Testament. According to Galatians 3, those who try and keep any part of the ceremonial law must keep the whole law. It is a vain and futile thing to attempt.

In brief, tithing is never once taught in the New Testament, which is the blueprint for the Church and for Christian living. Some argue that Jesus upheld tithing in the New Testament. But what they fail to recognize is when Jesus told various men in the New Testament that they should not neglect the tithe is because those men were Jews, not Christians and Jesus had not yet died and rose from the dead redeeming us in general from ceremonial Jewish law.

Malachi 3:8-12 is widely used as a hammer by church authoritarians who are determined to fund their grand ambitions, but these Old Testament verses were written specifically to Israel not to Christians.

8"Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In (tithes and offerings. 9"You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you! 10"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows. 11"Then I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not destroy the fruits of the ground; nor will your vine in the field cast its grapes," says the LORD of hosts. 12"All the nations will call you blessed, for you shall be a delightful land," says the LORD of hosts. Malachi 3:8-12 NASB

There are very few Christens who are unfamiliar with the ungodly misapplied pounding of the above verses into their heads. Many unbelievers are also quite familiar with these verses from Malachi as well, often more familiar than any other verses in the Bible. That should tell you something! The tithing error is big business. This is what funds lunatic false teachers in the pulpit. We as Christians are commanded to not give under compulsion but rather as cheerful givers. But here’s the thing:

It is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to keep the Bible’s command to not give under compulsion while believing that we owe a compulsory tax of 10% of our income to some charlatan to spend any way that he wants.

Tithing is a system of policed and enforced 'giving', which is not voluntary giving at all but an involuntarily taxation. This is not remotely close to cheerful givers commanded to not give 'under compulsion' as the Bible clearly teaches in 2Cor 9:7.

'Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.' 2Cor 9:7 NASB

But how can one do as he has purposed in his own heart if he or she is at the same time forced to tithe? Well, some tithing advocates who pound Malachi 3 claim that the voluntary aspect of 2Cor9:7 pertains only to additional offerings or choosing where to tithe. But if the 'where' was optional, then why does Malachi 3 set the storehouse as the exact 'where' or place where the tithe must be given? The where is not optional. The problem is Malachi 3 does not apply in any way to Christians but rather only to Israel. Many of these tithe teachers mix Old and New Testament Scriptures together in a random haphazard way in order to try and get the Bible to say whatever they want it to say. This erroneous approach to Bible interpretation is often quite evident in many of their other teachings as well.

Briefly, you should NOT tithe. But, this is one of the hardest false teachings and false 'church' habits to break. The reason is because we have been so utterly pounded with endless fear tactics and other mental gymnastics in order to keep us tithing. We think we’ll lose our job or our car will break down or some other fear based lunacy that these guys teach. It’s all unbiblical nonsense. Who is the direct beneficiary of the tithe teaching? You guessed it. The tithe teacher!

A few quick bullet points (but there is much more to be said on this subject):

Tithes were never collected in cash (livestock and crops only).
Tithes were collected only by Levitical priests.
A Levitical priest must be Jewish.
A Levitical priest must own no personal property. (Have you seen any pastors lately who own no personal property?)
There are presently no more of these priests in existence today so we know we have lots of counterfeit Levitical priests running around.
Tithes were often mandated by God for other uses such as giving to the poor. Tithes were sometimes to be used for the personal needs of the person who tithed. (When have you ever seen a pastor give the tithe back to the giver?)
The same men who teach the tithe gladly eat pork (which is OK for any Christian to do). But anyone who keeps any Old Testament ceremonial law (such as tithing) must keep all the Old Testament ceremonial laws (including the law that states that eating pork is forbidden). We also do not see these tithe teachers slaughtering bulls and goats as sacrifices to God (not that any Christian should). The point is, these men pick and choose to pull forward from the Old Testament law whatever they want and they have chosen to keep the tithe and throw out what is inconvenient (such as the prohibition on owning personal property, the prohibition on eating pork, animal sacrifices, etc.) in a nutshell whatever they don’t like and whatever does not suit them.

This is only a brief introduction to the tithing error. Again, much more could be said on this subject.

Paul Howey http://www.preterism-eschatology.com/Is%20Tithing%20Biblical.htm


http://www.preterism-eschatology.com/Tithing.html

http://www.preterism-eschatology.com/The%20Truth%20About%20Tithing.htm

http://www.preterism-eschatology.com/Tithing%20is%20Unscriptural%20Under%20The%20New%20 Covenant.htm


http://www.preterism-eschatology.com/TheTithe%20is%20Illegal.html

Brother Les

Gospel of Peace
08-27-2008, 09:17 PM
Another article which covers this topic, in case anyone is interested:

http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html

Peace.

Codger
09-11-2008, 02:23 PM
The Tithing law is one of the most abused doctrines in the Church today. It is a doctrine that has been fabricated from bits and pieces from the Old Covenant as you know. In an agriculture based economy the rich people were the farmers with their herds and crops. Only the rich and the priests paid tithes. And the Pharisees (by election I think) but there were only about 6,000 of them in Jesus' day. That's not many considering the Jewish population in the first century. But the best kept secret of the ancient tithing law is that the Common people who worked for a wage never paid tithes. And tithes were only paid to the Temple at Jerusalem - the Synagoges never collected tithes. There were about 460 synagoges in the Jerusalem area back then - and the list goes on and on.

I find the real root motivation or principle for giving today is that God wants us to put him first and that's what the early Christians did. Every week they set aside an amount of money for the Lords work. It was called firstfruits. Justin Martyr left us a record of a second century Church meeting. He stated that an offering was taken from the rich and the willing in support of widows and the needy (Paraphrase from memory).

It's interesting that the Tithing law didn't come into the church until the forth century - you know about the time that the Church left the hospitality of the women (home cells) and men took it over and started building Church buildings and acquiring assets.

Larry

Bob May
09-11-2008, 04:20 PM
If they are so adamant in us paying tithes, ask them if they would be willing to get a tenth of a tenth. That was to be their pay if I remember correctly.
But no, they also want "offerings" which are separate from tithes.

This is their favorite weapon in the war for our money.

"Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts."

A few small details that preachers of the Law fail to point out.

1. The law was given to the Jewish nation, not to gentile Christians. (see above) "...for ye have robbed me, even this whole NATION.)

2. Paul had a job.

3. No one ever kept the Law. (Read the enire book of Malachi, not just a few lines)

4. We are under another Covenant which is based upon belief, not works.
And also in that covenant, WE are the priests. So, if priests are supposed to collect tithes, who are we collecting them from?

5. If they want to collect tithes, they should start a Synagogue, not a church. But if they want to collect the money, their name better be Levi, not Hagggey or whatever.

Brother Les
09-12-2008, 10:52 AM
Mal 3:8 is pointing directly at The Levi Priest, they were the ones that were 'robbing God'....

per Mal. 3:8

Brother Les