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Richard Amiel McGough
11-03-2013, 08:55 AM
Learn the difference between knowledge and faith:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f70wZ-mLR8

sylvius
11-03-2013, 09:27 AM
Learn the difference between knowledge and faith:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f70wZ-mLR8

Knowledge isn't faithful.

Knowledge is just true until the opposite is proven.

Rose
11-03-2013, 09:56 AM
Learn the difference between knowledge and faith:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f70wZ-mLR8

I especially related to the part of the video where he talks about starting at the point of saying "I don't know" and then asking questions. I began my journey out of the Christian faith with "asking questions" and then diligently seeking their answers with an open mind.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-03-2013, 12:03 PM
Knowledge isn't faithful.

Knowledge is just true until the opposite is proven.
All knowledge is faithful, or it is not knowledge.

So-called "knowledge" that is proven false never was really knowledge.

This is the central problem of epistemology. What is knowledge? Many philosophers like the definition "justified true belief". This definition defines knowledge as a kind of belief. And this brings us back to the central point of the video which defines "faith" as "pretending to know things you don't know."

The problem with the definition of knowledge as "justified true belief" centers on the problem of justification. Religious faith does away with this in one fell swoop, by asserting that all you must do is "believe" without any evidence of any kind. They might pretend to base their beliefs on evidence, but that's not really true.

sylvius
11-03-2013, 01:04 PM
All knowledge is faithful, or it is not knowledge.

So-called "knowledge" that is proven false never was really knowledge.

This is the central problem of epistemology. What is knowledge? Many philosophers like the definition "justified true belief". This definition defines knowledge as a kind of belief. And this brings us back to the central point of the video which defines "faith" as "pretending to know things you don't know."

The problem with the definition of knowledge as "justified true belief" centers on the problem of justification. Religious faith does away with this in one fell swoop, by asserting that all you must do is "believe" without any evidence of any kind. They might pretend to base their beliefs on evidence, but that's not really true.


There is some professor physics, he comes from the Netherlands but lives in America, who has 100 % trust in physical laws. To demonstrate his faith he does many seemingly dangerous tests, like letting go from his hands from before his head a leaden ball that hangs on a rope from the ceiling, lke a giant pendulum. He just remains quietly standing on his spot while the ball comes pendels back to him with great velocity.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-03-2013, 01:44 PM
There is some professor physics, he comes from the Netherlands but lives in America, who has 100 % trust in physical laws. To demonstrate his faith he does many seemingly dangerous tests, like letting go from his hands from before his head a leaden ball that hangs on a rope from the ceiling, lke a giant pendulum. He just remains quietly standing on his spot while the ball comes pendels back to him with great velocity.
There's no danger of any kind in his demonstration of his "faith" because it is not "faith" but rather knowledge. He knows that the ball will never hit him in the face. It follows from the law of the conservation of energy.

sylvius
11-03-2013, 02:25 PM
There's no danger of any kind in his demonstration of his "faith" because it is not "faith" but rather knowledge. He knows that the ball will never hit him in the face. It follows from the law of the conservation of energy.
Yet it is faith.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-03-2013, 02:56 PM
Yet it is faith.
Not true. Knowledge involves the concept of justification of belief. Mere faith without justification is the antithesis of knowledge. That's the point of the video. I already explained this but you apparently chose to ignore what I wrote (or simply did not understand it). Here it is again:

This is the central problem of epistemology. What is knowledge? Many philosophers like the definition "justified true belief". This definition defines knowledge as a kind of belief. And this brings us back to the central point of the video which defines "faith" as "pretending to know things you don't know."

Rose
11-03-2013, 03:04 PM
Yet it is faith.

What one could say is that the professor has faith in his knowledge of the facts of physics, which is quite different from having faith in an unknown.

Mystykal
11-03-2013, 11:28 PM
What one could say is that the professor has faith in his knowledge of the facts of physics, which is quite different from having faith in an unknown.

Hi Rose:

I am kind of jumping in the middle of this convo... I think you make an excellent point.... The definition of the word faith. The idea that faith is substance or real is also made by the definition given in the Bible. The issue is how that substance is realized. Jesus in His speach to doubting Thomas clearly says that Thomas believed because he had touched and felt the "evidence". Then Jesus says, John 20:29 "Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

So the comparison here is one of hard evidence substantiated by the senses as fact and real truth believed in spite of the lack of "physical" evidence. The latter is true faith. The issue is not if the facts themselves are real and true but if there is a way to accept these REAL facts in the lack of physical, tactile evidence! Let's get this straight once and for all do not confuse the two "types" of faith. You do not even believe in GOD at all - any god! So for you to act like you can talk about faith simply because you in the past were a "Christian" is insane! I do not mean to be rude but you simply are not credible in your observations about true religion or spirituality. You do not really have a grasp on anything having to do with faith in the biblical sense of the word. Your perspective is far too jilted....

Namaste,

Mystykal

Richard Amiel McGough
11-03-2013, 11:47 PM
So the comparison here is one of hard evidence substantiated by the senses as fact and real truth believed in spite of the lack of "physical" evidence. The latter is true faith. The issue is not if the facts themselves are real and true but if there is a way to accept these REAL facts in the lack of physical, tactile evidence! Let's get this straight once and for all do not confuse the two "types" of faith.
Hey there Mystykal,

I don't think that is the real issue. To me, the real issue is how one set of metaphysical beliefs can be distinguished from any other false set of beliefs such as fantasies about fairies, gnomes, magical unicorns, Allah, Vishnu, Yahweh, and the Tooth Fairy. I have brought this to your attention many times and as far as I know, you have never even suggested any answer. Do you understand why I think this is the real issue? The world is filled with fairy tales that people think are "confirmed" by their subjective experience despite the fact that they have no actual evidence of any kind.

You say that Rose's distinction between knowledge (as justified true belief) and blind faith is a "confusion." I think it is the opposite of confusion. The real confusion is your conflation of blind faith with knowledge. They are not the same at all. By definition, folks have reasons to "believe" things that they can justify with reasons. The faith you advocate seems indistinguishable from fantasy.

All the best,

Richard

sylvius
11-03-2013, 11:53 PM
Not true. Knowledge involves the concept of justification of belief. Mere faith without justification is the antithesis of knowledge. That's the point of the video. I already explained this but you apparently chose to ignore what I wrote (or simply did not understand it). Here it is again:

This is the central problem of epistemology. What is knowledge? Many philosophers like the definition "justified true belief". This definition defines knowledge as a kind of belief. And this brings us back to the central point of the video which defines "faith" as "pretending to know things you don't know."


It is not just the ball that swings but also the professor that has it swing.

It makes think of a clock, pendule:

http://images2.images-speurders.nl/images/13/1361/136180232_1_big.jpg

It needs to be winded up.


Time ticking away ...

I do remember from my childhood the ticking of the clocks in all the houses of my aunts and uncles who have all passed away already for long.
and also the ticking of the clock in my parents' house.

I got still some as inheritance, but I don't wind them up.

The clock from my parents' house was stolen. A burglar had forced a window when both of my parents had moved to an old peoples' home, and we hadn't yet emptied the house. the only thing the burglar took was the clock, that I had already phantasized to bring it over to my house.

sylvius
11-04-2013, 12:05 AM
The story of Jesus' walking on the water (the sea) might be about the same. He defied nature's law.

Water is the symbol of time, since the source of water (the "ed" of Genesis 2:6) is also source of time.

Matthew 14:28-31,

Peter said to him in reply, “Lord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water.” He said, “Come.” Peter got out of the boat and began to walk on the water toward Jesus. But when he saw how [strong] the wind was he became frightened; and, beginning to sink, he cried out, “Lord, save me!” Immediately Jesus stretched out his hand and caught him, and said to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?”

Ὀλιγόπιστε, εἰς τί ἐδίστασας;

διστάζω = to doubt, waiver

https://twitter.com/RabbiGinsburgh




Rabbi Y. Ginsburgh ‏@RabbiGinsburgh 17h

Amalek (עֲמָלֵק) is the archenemy of Jewish faith. His name equals “doubt” (סָפֵק); he chills all fervor and casts doubt of faith in God,

Amalek came when there was no water, and the people quarreled with Mose, Exodus 17,

v.7-8,
He named the place Massah [testing] and Meribah [quarreling] because of the quarrel of the children of Israel and because of their testing the Lord, saying, Is the Lord in our midst or not? Amalek came and fought with Israel in Rephidim.

Mystykal
11-04-2013, 01:52 AM
Hey there Mystykal,

I don't think that is the real issue. To me, the real issue is how one set of metaphysical beliefs can be distinguished from any other false set of beliefs such as fantasies about fairies, gnomes, magical unicorns, Allah, Vishnu, Yahweh, and the Tooth Fairy. I have brought this to your attention many times and as far as I know, you have never even suggested any answer. Do you understand why I think this is the real issue? The world is filled with fairy tales that people think are "confirmed" by their subjective experience despite the fact that they have no actual evidence of any kind.

You say that Rose's distinction between knowledge (as justified true belief) and blind faith is a "confusion." I think it is the opposite of confusion. The real confusion is your conflation of blind faith with knowledge. They are not the same at all. By definition, folks have reasons to "believe" things that they can justify with reasons. The faith you advocate seems indistinguishable from fantasy.

All the best,

Richard

Hi Richard:
I am glad I got your attention... I was hoping you would comment! :thumb: I know you say "I don't think that is the real issue."... But actually it is! Here's why...

The idea of faith is one of how someone is going to believe in or not believe in some idea. You do not think that there is any truth outside of the known substantative, evidential body holding verifiable truth. That type of truth as you call it does not require faith per se. You can believe in it since it is provable physical proof like an object presented as evidence in court. I get that. You keep saying that I do not answer your question as to: "To me, the real issue is how one set of metaphysical beliefs can be distinguished from any other false set of beliefs such as fantasies about fairies, gnomes, magical unicorns, Allah, Vishnu, Yahweh, and the Tooth Fairy."

The issue is not "blind faith" as in no evidence... It is that you think that all things are fake since the "tares and the wheat" are indistinquishable to you at the moment. I get that! I am not saying that faith and facts are the same thing! I am not suggesting that evidence is faith. I am saying that true faith is based on real evidence which WE DO NOT SEE and is therefore not fantasy! It is true that on the surface it is at times impossible to tell the difference between true "faith" and false fantasy! Most non-spiritual non-essence based knowledge is false. Making most religious experiences false! But acting like blind faith is real faith or that evidence and belief in verifiable evidence IS FAITH is well foolish! So maybe now you see why I say Rose is confusing faith real faith (as a theory) with belief in reality (as a fact). I am not diminishing your point of believing in something does not make it real but NOT Believing in something REAL which is UNSEEN at the moment - does not make it a false fantasy!

Namaste,

Mystykal

sylvius
11-04-2013, 03:01 AM
It is not just the ball that swings but also the professor that has it swing.

It makes think of a clock, pendule:

http://images2.images-speurders.nl/images/13/1361/136180232_1_big.jpg

It needs to be winded up.


Time ticking away ...

I do remember from my childhood the ticking of the clocks in all the houses of my aunts and uncles who have all passed away already for long.
and also the ticking of the clock in my parents' house.

I got still some as inheritance, but I don't wind them up.

The clock from my parents' house was stolen. A burglar had forced a window when both of my parents had moved to an old peoples' home, and we hadn't yet emptied the house. the only thing the burglar took was the clock, that I had already phantasized to bring it over to my house.


The Hebrew word פַּעַם, "paam" comes in mind = time, step, pace, tread, foot; beat, stroke; base.
"paam" as a verb is: to beat (esp. of the heart), pulse, throb, strike, pulsate.
"paamon"= bell; gong.
"paamonah" = Glockenspiel.

Genesis 2:23,
זֹאת הַפַּעַם עֶצֶם מֵעֲצָמַי וּבָשָׂר מִבְּשָׂרִי , "zot hapaam etsem meiatsamai uvasar mib'sari"
"This one at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh"

Adam got knocked down by it, what you think :eek:

sylvius
11-04-2013, 03:18 AM
I was impressed by this:

http://resoundings.org/Pages/Harmonic_Bridge1.htm


This sound sculpture will explore the musicality of sounds hidden within the structure of the London Millennium Foot Bridge. This bridge is alive with vibrations caused by the bridge’s responses to the collective energy of footsteps, load and wind. This sonic world is inaudible to the ear when walking over this bridge. It will be revealed by the use of the accelerometers (which are vibration sensors) that are listening to the inner dynamic motions of the bridge. Harmonic Bridge will be realized by installing a network of live accelerometers on different parts of the Bridge in order to acoustically map in real time its hidden musical life. The live sonic mapping will be translated into an acoustic sculpture by carefully rendering sounds from this listening network into a spatial matrix of loudspeakers. This sculpture will not only render the natural acoustic movements of the Bridge, but will tune the presence of this live sonic data to the characteristics and architecture of the two spaces in which the work is presented: the Turbine Hall of the Tate Modern, and the Main Concourse of Southwark Station of the London Underground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Bridge,_London

http://www.pps.org/graphics/gpp/pedestrian_bridge_london_architecture_fk_03_10_xla rge

Binding together two millennia, like the Tetragrammaton binds together the sixth and the seventh day :winking0071:

Leif
11-05-2013, 05:29 AM
The word Faith when used in a religious setting is a tricky one that needs dismantling.
Most of the time the word Faith is used to make a knowledge claim i.e.

"I have Faith that Jesus resurrected" ...really means.... "I know Jesus resurrected"

Peter Boghossian gives a whole lecture on the meaning of the word Faith. Just watch the first 20 minutes :) Skip the Q&A

"Faith: Pretending to know things you don't know" by Dr. Peter Boghossian
http://bit.ly/1hQPAc0

.
.

sylvius
11-05-2013, 08:05 AM
The word Faith when used in a religious setting is a tricky one that needs dismantling.
Most of the time the word Faith is used to make a knowledge claim i.e.

"I have Faith that Jesus resurrected" ...really means.... "I know Jesus resurrected"

Peter Boghossian gives a whole lecture on the meaning of the word Faith. Just watch the first 20 minutes :) Skip the Q&A

"Faith: Pretending to know things you don't know" by Dr. Peter Boghossian
http://bit.ly/1hQPAc0

.
.

In Hebrew faith, "emunah", and truth, "emet", are from the same root, "aman"= to foster, nurse, bring up, "nèeman" = to be found true, trustworthy.

Intimating that there is no truth without faith and no faith without truth.

Also English true and faithful are equivalents.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-05-2013, 09:53 PM
The word Faith when used in a religious setting is a tricky one that needs dismantling.
Most of the time the word Faith is used to make a knowledge claim i.e.

"I have Faith that Jesus resurrected" ...really means.... "I know Jesus resurrected"

Peter Boghossian gives a whole lecture on the meaning of the word Faith. Just watch the first 20 minutes :) Skip the Q&A

"Faith: Pretending to know things you don't know" by Dr. Peter Boghossian
http://bit.ly/1hQPAc0

.
.
Hey there Leif,

Thanks for the most excellent video, and welcome to the forum!

:welcome:

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
11-05-2013, 09:55 PM
In Hebrew faith, "emunah", and truth, "emet", are from the same root, "aman"= to foster, nurse, bring up, "nèeman" = to be found true, trustworthy.

Intimating that there is no truth without faith and no faith without truth.

Also English true and faithful are equivalents.
There are two totally different meanings of "faith" -

1) To believe in some concept like Allah and the Quran or Jesus and the Bible without justification.

2) To be faithful, trustworthy. As in "I am faithful to my wife".

When talking about the relation between faith and knowledge, we are talking about definition number 1. You, sylvius, appear to be talking about definition #2.

"If you wish to converse with me, define your terms." ~ Voltaire

sylvius
11-05-2013, 11:47 PM
There are two totally different meanings of "faith" -

1) To believe in some concept like Allah and the Quran or Jesus and the Bible without justification.

2) To be faithful, trustworthy. As in "I am faithful to my wife".

When talking about the relation between faith and knowledge, we are talking about definition number 1. You, sylvius, appear to be talking about definition #2.

"If you wish to converse with me, define your terms." ~ Voltaire

Here shows your fundamental mistake.

Like said, Mark 12:27,
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living: you do greatly err

Richard Amiel McGough
11-30-2013, 09:18 AM
There are two totally different meanings of "faith" -

1) To believe in some concept like Allah and the Quran or Jesus and the Bible without justification.

2) To be faithful, trustworthy. As in "I am faithful to my wife".

When talking about the relation between faith and knowledge, we are talking about definition number 1. You, sylvius, appear to be talking about definition #2.

"If you wish to converse with me, define your terms." ~ Voltaire
Here shows your fundamental mistake.

Like said, Mark 12:27,
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living: you do greatly err
Why do you quote that as if it were true? You have rejected the validity of much of the NT. Indeed, you reject the entire book of Hebrews and who knows what else. So you just pick and choose which bits and pieces you like and reject the rest? Your position makes no sense to me.

Oh, and besides that, how does that verse expose any error in my comment?

Unregistered
08-29-2014, 06:54 PM
I will give you my Experience with Jesus and Having Faith in the Word of God... I am a Widow with an Autistic Child, and had been a stay at home Mom when my husband passed away from Cancer... Last Year with the Economy being what it is, and having no income except for ebay (No food stamps, SS, disability or government help) I was out of Food, and No money in the Bank, and I had no sales on ebay for a week... but The Lord said He would take care of My needs if I seeked the Kingdom First, and I had Faith He would, So I said a Prayer, and said, Lord, the Store is only a mile away, I need Groceries, and I don't know how your going to do it, but I know you will make a way, Thank You for your Word and Promises... and I walked out to the Car, no having a penny to my name, but going to Buy Groceries, knowing beyond a doubt that buy the time I got to the store, or checked out, that my Groceries would get paid for, somehow, someway...

davidjayjordan
09-05-2017, 09:39 AM
Be skeptical about all things and prove them..... only whimps and gutless people complain.. Have some balls and ovaries and test and see if Jesus is true, test and find out if His Principles work.

Be scientific and quite, your incessant complaining and doubts and skepticism about Jesus.

Ask questions and find out and quite complaining about others, and the so called lack of proof etc etc... whimps never make it. STOP being whimpy, dont believe what others tell you, what your government tells you, what anyone tells you, find out for yourself !!

Test and see if the Lord is good.

Dont have weak, maybe faith, have true knowledge from KNOWING JESUS.

Have a solid foundation, know Jesus as He said. Ask HIm in your heart and if He doesn;t come, then reject HIM and tell Him He is a LIAR and DECEIVER, and go on your way without HIM til the day you die.

Show some maturity and take the responsibility heathen, and atheists, and agnostics and reprobates.... blame HIM, even though you have never tested HIM or had the courage to do what He said to do, because you were afraid, blah blah bla.... but stop this insisant complaning and bitching about HIM not giving you enough prof. Figure it out for yourself from individual testing. Be scientific rather than going on flimsy faith, take the STEP and test the Lord.

The Lord hates whimps, and whoosies, and complainers....

Get some knowledge and KNOW, then faith in KNOWLDGE and personal experience works !!!