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Skybreaker
06-16-2007, 05:04 AM
Hi, all!

Going back approx 10 years, I discovered the website www.yhwh.com.

Cutting a long story short, it has changed my life and way of thinking and I would really love to hear your (especially Richard`s) opinion on the content in the document "The Revealing Science of God (http://www.yhwh.com/Science/science0.htm)".

It attempts to answer the deepest questions about the origin, destiny & purpose of God, humanity, and the Universe.

Here`s the link:
http://www.yhwh.com/Science/science0.htm

Richard Amiel McGough
06-16-2007, 10:45 AM
Hi, all!

Going back approx 10 years, I discovered the website www.yhwh.com (http://www.yhwh.com).

Cutting a long story short, it has changed my life and way of thinking and I would really love to hear your (especially Richard`s) opinion on the content in the document "The Revealing Science of God (http://www.yhwh.com/Science/science0.htm)".

It attempts to answer the deepest questions about the origin, destiny & purpose of God, humanity, and the Universe.

Here`s the link:
http://www.yhwh.com/Science/science0.htm

Hi Skybreaker,

Thanks for the links. I spent about an hour getting familiar with his material. I really like the place he starts with the "Big Question" which asks "why" anything exists as opposed to nothing. When I was a child - starting maybe when I was 5 or 6 years old - I often would focus on that question. I would imagine a big line with everything that exists (including God) on one side, and absolutely nothing on the other. Then I would contemplate "why" there was something rather than nothing. Oddly enough, the meditation gave me an very pleasurable physical sensation.

So I read through most of his The Revealing Science of God, starting with http://www.yhwh.com/Science/science0.htm and enjoyed his open minded exploration of some of the deeper questions not explicitly answered in the Bible.

On the down side, he doesn't seem to have a very deep appreciation or real understanding of what the Bible teaches. For example, near the end of Part 1 he wrote:


And finally, most mysteriously of all, the Bible gives us not one clue as to why God would do such a thing. Was it because He was bored? Was it because He wanted to have some little creatures down here to torture? Was it because He is an egocentric maniac, and wanted to force us all to sit around and worship Him? Meanwhile, preparing ghastly and unspeakable tortures for those who refuse to do so? The Bible does not tell us why.

Note the emphasis on "not one clue" is his*. Do you agree with that statement? I disagree with him because I think the Bible has a lot to say about why God created. For example, we could start with the explicit statements, such as Revelation 4:11

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

And then there is Isaiah 43:7:

Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

I also think that asking if God is a "egocentric maniac" is not the best way to conduct theological inquiries, especially in light of Biblical statements like Isa 43:7.

So I would say that TCoY (The Church of YHWH) would do well to spend a little more time in Scripture and a little less time in speculation guided primarily by philosophy, epistemology, and the "scientific method applied to religion" as described in Part II. But don't think I am completely critical of him. As I said, his open minded approach is very refreshing, and his attempt to clarify faith through reason is very important. Obviously, we need to know what we believe and why. It seems like his website is an honest attempt to accomplish that.

Now in Part III, before he addressed the question of God as creator, he asserted that matter is produced by consciousness, not the other way around. That's another point of agreement I have with him. I held the same view before I became a Christian, and I believe it is something that could be derived from pure philosophy. He then very clearly states his basic postulate that God is creator with which I wholeheartedly agree, of course. And he has an interesting thing about fractals and nature, which I have touched up in my study of holographs. (See here (http://www.biblewheel.com/Topics/Levels.asp).)

In Part 4 he speculates about Father/Mother God and an infinite chain of gods begetting gods which he admits is similar to Mormon theory. He also has a subsection called "The Mathematical Equation for God" which he opens with the statement that "We are actually given a formula that enables us to understand this being and understand what is necessary and sufficient for the creation of the universe." He lost me here, because he has clearly stepped well beyond both what is revealed in Scripture and what can be know through natural reason.

In Part 5 he makes what I consider to be an extraordinary blunder. In answer to the question "What is the universe made out of?" he wrote: "According to the laws of logic, which we are comfortable concluding God works within, there are logically only two choices. Either God made the universe out of himself or he/she made it out of something else." He concluded with "The universe is made out of God." In the course of the discussion, he addressed the traditional Christian response, which is that God created ex nihilo, writing:


However, upon deeper examination that statement does not hold up to any tests of logic, and is fallacious. To say that God created out of nothing is true, in that, yes, there was no thing outside of God for him to mold and shape. However, to say that he created out of nothing, to imply then that the physical creation has a separate existence apart from God, is completely wrong. When God said, "Let there be light," the only thing in the universe to generate that light was himself/herself!
I don't have time to discuss this point, but suffice to say I think it is an inadequate "resolution" of the question.

Perhaps the single most disturbing statement he made is on his "Complaints and Criticism" page: http://www.yhwh.com/Complaints.htm

"Christianity resulted when post-exile Judaism was combined with Greek Hellenism. "

That's not a biblical view of the religion Christ founded upon His Death, Burial, and Resurrection.

In sum, I think he is sincere, and has given us a lot "grist for the mill" but some of his ideas seem a little theologically immature and idiosyncratic. I am cautious that he may be a bit of a "loose canon" and "lone-ranger" style Christian who may be extending the great virtue of skepticism past its proper limits which could turn it into a vice.

I'm curious about his take on the Fall and Redemption that starts here: http://www.yhwh.com/Garden/garden0.htm but I don't have time right now to read it. What do you think of it?

Thanks for pointing this out.

Richard

PS: It is important to know that the "Church of YHWH" is not associated with the "Sacred Name" movement, and does not partake in their errors, as far as I can tell.

*(I bolded what he had written in italics because his emphasis was lost when everything was italicized in the quote box)

White
06-16-2007, 09:29 PM
Shall we believe the first spoken words of YHWH - "LET THERE BE LIGHT" - and light penetraded the darkness (chaos) - and HE -Y'SHUA/JESUS - became the LIGHT OF THE WORLD (JOHN 1:14) - Light always pushes out darkness - the more LIGHT (Y'SHUA)is in us, the clearer we see, the closer we move to YHWH. I also have studied Judaism as guided by the Holy Spirit, even attended an Orthodox Synagogue for almost one full year and I found that when YHWH says : Keep the Sabbath holy (SABBATH translated from Hebrew meaning Saturday) HE does not mean any 7th day depending when one starts to count, but the SABBATH = SATURDAY. Thus I find the ORTHODOX JEWISH WAY in particular enchanting, with the emphasis of a full day dedicated to YHWH, to connect to YHWH by studying HIS WORD and by making the home a sanctuary - a HOLY PLACE if you will - to recharge and reconnect vertically (GOD) and horizontally (Family/World) - just like the cross - GOD first, FAMILY second, JOB & WORLD third. I find the YHWH site rather shallow... and not worthy of its sacred name... - "YHWH is sitting on HIS Throne, tears are streaming down HIS FACE, for lack of KNOWLEDGE MY People shall die, how come you Believers are so shy? I gave MY beloved SON that you may live, live a life of PEACE and HAPPINESS on Earth as in Heaven. Shout it to the World, let them see, let them hear, I am a GOD of LOVE, I care, your prayers I hear; make Y'SHUA Ha-Mashiach / JESUS the Christ your way of LIFE, HE longs to hold you, love you, heal you, HE is the ONE who came back and is now alive. When I'm YOUR GOD, YOUR FIRST LOVE, then you'll do MY WILL, then you'll know TRUE LOVE, have Peace and Happiness all the days of your life as I (YHWH) love you even to the end of the times." GOD is LOVE and GOD is good, always.

Here is another point : It is on 12/14/1998 when I asked Rabbi Goldberger about "conversion to Judaism", thinking that's what the LORD would want me to do since HE sent me in September 1998 to that Synagogue, Kenesseth Israel Congregation in St. Louis Park, MN, with the words : "This is my Father's House, go here!", Rabbi Goldberger asked me point blank: "Do you believe that JESUS is the Messiah?" I had sent Rabbi Goldberger my Testimony titled "The Spirit & the bride" - 70 pages of my most personal and intimate walk with Y'SHUA - Of course I could not deny my LORD and SAVIOR so I answered: "Well, HE is a Jewish Man you know!" To which the Rabbi said: "We don't believe G-d has a son, we don't believe in 3 gods, we believe in ONE G-D, we don't believe in angels and life after death, so if you want to convert, you must renounce JESUS!" Voila!

That was in 1998 and I had no clue about anything, but the LORD asked me to return to that Synagogue on 12/26/1998 - I repeat 12/26 - for a Sabbath Morning Service - the reading was from EZEKIEL 37:15-28 - and "I will take the stick of the House of JUDAH and I will take the stick of the House of ISRAEL, and I will make them ONE STICK in MY hand...." see especially verse 22 - connect also to Isaiah 22:22 - and Revelation 22:16-17 (the opening verse of my Testimony and the title thereof). In my lengthy correspondence with Rabbi Chaim Goldberger - approx. 300 pages - mostly ONE WAY - with 3 exceptions (asking me to refrain from sending "Missionary Material", from sending tithes (which were returned and which I returned in cash for obvious reasons), and finally closing the door to the Synagogue in Nov. 1999, after I asked Rabbi Chaim Goldberger to accept Y'SHUA as Messiah - after celebrating the Jewish New Year with them which started on 9/11/1999 - I repeat 9/11 !!! a date I connected at that time to AMOS 9:11, PSALM 119:119 and Romans Chapter 9 - 11 - followed by the Holiest Day Yom Kippur, Simchat Torah (I took my 96 year old Dad from Switzerland to this special celebration of Dancing with Torah), Feast of Tabernacle (Sukkot - built my second Sukkah) etc. and after receiving the mikveh (Jewish Purification bath) on 5 different occasions between June 1998 and Passover 1999 - when they realized that I was NOT Jewish - even though I had sent Rabbi Goldberger my Testimony titled "The Spirit and the Bride" starting out with Revelation 22:16-17 on two occasions, stating that I received the Mikveh for the first time on 6/19/98 - therefore hiding nothing, but just following the guidance of the Holy Spirit -

"We believe in ONE G-D" is a fallacy - Rabbi Chaim Goldberger believes already in "TWO G-D'S" since they accept "THE SPIRIT" equal with G-D, thus when they accept Y'SHUA as SON of G-D, and in Judaism FATHER and SON are ONE and interchangable, and Y'SHUA says "May they be ONE as MY FATHER AND I ARE ONE" - God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit - three in one - we will enter the Kingdom of GOD on Earth. May we all look forward to that time, even in these days, speedily, starting with 17th TAMMUZ which falls on 7/3 - Halleluijah!

Judaism is our foundation - Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH is our L-RD and Savior - "I am the way, the truth and the life, NO ONE comes to the Father but through ME!" May Richard continue to shout it from the roof top with the Biblewheel - and may we pray daily for the Peace of Jerusalem - read Psalm 122 (for blessings) and Psalm 91 (for protection) daily and pray, pray, pray ... and may we believe the WORD OF GOD and follow it because God says what HE means and HE means what HE says...

My recommendation : Stick with Richard and the Biblewheel!
In Christ,
White

Richard Amiel McGough
06-17-2007, 07:42 AM
Shall we believe the first spoken words of YHWH - "LET THERE BE LIGHT" - and light penetraded the darkness (chaos) - and HE -Y'SHUA/JESUS - became the LIGHT OF THE WORLD (JOHN 1:14) - Light always pushes out darkness - the more LIGHT (Y'SHUA)is in us, the clearer we see, the closer we move to YHWH.
Hi White!

Great to see you here. Yes indeed, Jesus is the light, Amen!


I also have studied Judaism as guided by the Holy Spirit, even attended an Orthodox Synagogue for almost one full year and I found that when YHWH says : Keep the Sabbath holy (SABBATH translated from Hebrew meaning Saturday) HE does not mean any 7th day depending when one starts to count, but the SABBATH = SATURDAY.
That is correct of course. The Sabbath is Saturday, and it was never changed. But the meaning of the Sabbath was changed from an external rest on a particular day to the internal rest from all our works everyday in Christ Jesus, now and forever! So I am of the mind that the Sabbath was just a shadow of the rest we have in Christ.

Colossians 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body (substance) is of Christ.


Thus I find the ORTHODOX JEWISH WAY in particular enchanting, with the emphasis of a full day dedicated to YHWH, to connect to YHWH by studying HIS WORD and by making the home a sanctuary - a HOLY PLACE if you will - to recharge and reconnect vertically (GOD) and horizontally (Family/World) - just like the cross - GOD first, FAMILY second, JOB & WORLD third.
Yes, the ancient faith has a lot of beauty and depth which is too often lacking from our Christian fellowship. That's something I always appreciated about their worship - they take their faith very seriously. And having a special day is a good thing even if it is not required by God in the legalistic sense.


I find the YHWH site rather shallow... and not worthy of its sacred name... - "YHWH is sitting on HIS Throne, tears are streaming down HIS FACE, for lack of KNOWLEDGE MY People shall die, how come you Believers are so shy? I gave MY beloved SON that you may live, live a life of PEACE and HAPPINESS on Earth as in Heaven. Shout it to the World, let them see, let them hear, I am a GOD of LOVE, I care, your prayers I hear; make Y'SHUA Ha-Mashiach / JESUS the Christ your way of LIFE, HE longs to hold you, love you, heal you, HE is the ONE who came back and is now alive. When I'm YOUR GOD, YOUR FIRST LOVE, then you'll do MY WILL, then you'll know TRUE LOVE, have Peace and Happiness all the days of your life as I (YHWH) love you even to the end of the times." GOD is LOVE and GOD is good, always.
I agree that the site seemed a little spiritually shallow ... it is very intellectual which is obviously something I delight in, but only if it is fully grounded in a living and passionate faith of Jesus Christ and Him Crucified, and resurrected, and in the power and love of the Holy Spirit.

God bless!

Richard

Skybreaker
06-21-2007, 04:25 PM
Thanks for your answers, guys. I feel speechless.

Did you continue reading "The Revealing Science of God (http://www.yhwh.com/Science/science0.htm)" after the "clue/why"-issue?

What do you think about his "shocking conclusion (http://www.yhwh.com/Science/science9.htm)"? :

"The Shocking Conclusion
Ultimately then I'm only left with one conclusion. That God being self existent and eternal, being all that there is, in order to express himself had to, in a certain extent, forget himself. He had to manifest himself as creation and then enter into that creation. This is at least consistent. We, you and I, all human beings, a slice of the Godhead, we are a tiny piece of the totality of the self existent one. We are a tiny drop in the ocean of God consciousness.

We are therefore God, slowed down and transformed. We remain connected with him, and are in fact himself. This is consistent with the notion of the body of Christ. God takes upon for himself a body, that body is made up of individual cells and those individual cells are all human beings.

Now, God through the process of creation is going into a voluntary sleep, or a forgetting. So that he can, #1, have relationship, all be it ultimately only with himself because that cannot be avoided. But it can appear for a while that there is a relationship because he has forgotten that he is both the subject and the object. This is another lesson which we learn as we grow older, that what we like about some thing, some object, is not the object but rather what the object does for us.

To give you a radical example, heroin and morphine do not do anything to the human body except stimulate and accelerate the production of chemicals which are natural to the human body. We project upon other people our hopes and our dreams and our desires. We project this upon our children, we project it upon our spouses. We project it upon relationships. We see not what is there, but what we want to be there.

Ultimately we are the subject and the object of our lives because as we've said before we are alone. So, God has entered into this world as each of us and is splitting himself up into a billion, billion pieces. Just like Humpty Dumpty falling off of the wall, he is now genuinely forgotten, at least this part of him, who and what he is. He is growing, he is seeking, he is learning. And as he does so he begins to remember who and what he is.

Everything has come from the same place, the same central origin. Therefore in one manner or another, everything must have memory and relationship to that origin. God lives inside of each of us and we are all on a process of rediscovering and remembering the true nature of existence. It could not be otherwise."

Richard Amiel McGough
06-21-2007, 05:05 PM
Thanks for your answers, guys. I feel speechless.

Did you continue reading "The Revealing Science of God (http://www.yhwh.com/Science/science0.htm)" after the "clue/why"-issue?
Hi Skybreaker,

Good to see you here! Yes, I read a lot more. If you look at my (very brief) review, you will note that I quoted and responded to selections from Parts 1, 3, 4 and 5.


What do you think about his "shocking conclusion (http://www.yhwh.com/Science/science9.htm)"? :

"The Shocking Conclusion
Ultimately then I'm only left with one conclusion. That God being self existent and eternal, being all that there is, in order to express himself had to, in a certain extent, forget himself.
First, I would like to say that I am naturally "sympathetic" to this point of view. Indeed, I professed it before I was a Christian. But now I see a problem. It is based on the idea that "God is all that there is." The logical implications of that is either 1) God is evil, or 2) Evil doesn't exist. Orthodox theology avoids this problem by make a clear distinction between God and the things He created. The Church of YHWH doesn't do this, and that's why I mentioned it as a problem in the previous post when I wrote this:


In Part 5 he makes what I consider to be an extraordinary blunder. In answer to the question "What is the universe made out of?" he wrote: "According to the laws of logic, which we are comfortable concluding God works within, there are logically only two choices. Either God made the universe out of himself or he/she made it out of something else." He concluded with "The universe is made out of God."

At the time I wrote that, I didn't realize the profoundly disturbing ramifications of that error; that it implied that God is evil, or that evil doesn't exist.

I suspect you would assert that evil does not exist. Is that correct?


He had to manifest himself as creation and then enter into that creation. This is at least consistent.
Yes, it is self-consistent, but not consistent with orthodox Christian theology, primarily for the reasons pointed out above. But there are others ...


We, you and I, all human beings, a slice of the Godhead, we are a tiny piece of the totality of the self existent one. We are a tiny drop in the ocean of God consciousness.
Again, I am entirely sympathetic with that point of view. It is what I professed before studying the Bible. And for what its worth, the idea of us being a "slice of the God-pie" is not as threatening to orthodoxy as asserting that "God is everything."


We are therefore God, slowed down and transformed. We remain connected with him, and are in fact himself. This is consistent with the notion of the body of Christ. God takes upon for himself a body, that body is made up of individual cells and those individual cells are all human beings.

Now, God through the process of creation is going into a voluntary sleep, or a forgetting. So that he can, #1, have relationship, all be it ultimately only with himself because that cannot be avoided. But it can appear for a while that there is a relationship because he has forgotten that he is both the subject and the object. This is another lesson which we learn as we grow older, that what we like about some thing, some object, is not the object but rather what the object does for us.
I understand these ideas very well. I have encountered them in many different guises as I searched for truth in the world's religions. As far as I can tell, they are the basic tenets of the advanced intellectual aspect of Hinduism. I've also read the same ideas in Sufi books, and even in Shirley MacLaine's "Out on a Limb" where she declared "I AM GOD. (http://www.believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=659)"


To give you a radical example, heroin and morphine do not do anything to the human body except stimulate and accelerate the production of chemicals which are natural to the human body. We project upon other people our hopes and our dreams and our desires. We project this upon our children, we project it upon our spouses. We project it upon relationships. We see not what is there, but what we want to be there.
Yeah, there is a lot of truth in the idea of "projection."


Ultimately we are the subject and the object of our lives because as we've said before we are alone. So, God has entered into this world as each of us and is splitting himself up into a billion, billion pieces. Just like Humpty Dumpty falling off of the wall, he is now genuinely forgotten, at least this part of him, who and what he is. He is growing, he is seeking, he is learning. And as he does so he begins to remember who and what he is.
I am familiar with these ideas. They sound like the Hindu theories of Maya and Atman, IIRC.


Everything has come from the same place, the same central origin. Therefore in one manner or another, everything must have memory and relationship to that origin. God lives inside of each of us and we are all on a process of rediscovering and remembering the true nature of existence. It could not be otherwise."

I hope my disagreement doesn't dissuade you from talking to me! I am honoring you by frankly and freely expressing the truth as I understand it. I respect you position, and can understand very much why you find it appealing.

Talk more soon!

Richard

Skybreaker
06-27-2007, 09:34 AM
Hi Skybreaker,

First, I would like to say that I am naturally "sympathetic" to this point of view. Indeed, I professed it before I was a Christian. But now I see a problem. It is based on the idea that "God is all that there is." The logical implications of that is either 1) God is evil, or 2) Evil doesn't exist. Orthodox theology avoids this problem by make a clear distinction between God and the things He created. The Church of YHWH doesn't do this, and that's why I mentioned it as a problem in the previous post when I wrote this:

At the time I wrote that, I didn't realize the profoundly disturbing ramifications of that error; that it implied that God is evil, or that evil doesn't exist.

Richard

Ok, everyone who reads this should know that I am a novice when it comes to bible-knowledge and theology. I therefore do not know what orthodox or non-orthodox theology teaches.

But I try to keep an open mind in my search for the truth, and so far I haven`t found any flaws or errors with "God is everything there is".

In other words, I`m ready to learn. ;)



I suspect you would assert that evil does not exist. Is that correct?
Richard

I think this is how I see it :

God (YHWH) is 100% light. Satan (the devil) hasn`t practically got any light inside of him at all. But nevertheless, he is still "inside" of God, because God is everything there is.

Further, my view tells me that this world, as we know it, is God (Light) decelerated/slowed down. Cutting a long story short : You are (a part of) God in a very slowed down "God-environment" called the universe, getting to know yourself again.

In what way do you interpret "God is light" ?



Again, I am entirely sympathetic with that point of view. It is what I professed before studying the Bible. And for what its worth, the idea of us being a "slice of the God-pie" is not as threatening to orthodoxy as asserting that "God is everything."
Richard

Obviously, I am one of the "too slowed down"-persons on this earth :yo: and I still need to understand what christianity find so threatening or wrong with the above idea?

Remove light and you are left with darkness, which is nothing but absense of light. Please correct me if I am wrong.



I understand these ideas very well. I have encountered them in many different guises as I searched for truth in the world's religions. As far as I can tell, they are the basic tenets of the advanced intellectual aspect of Hinduism. I've also read the same ideas in Sufi books, and even in Shirley MacLaine's "Out on a Limb" where she declared "I AM GOD. (http://www.believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=659)"
Richard

Well, how do you explain evil, the devil and the darkness?



I hope my disagreement doesn't dissuade you from talking to me! I am honoring you by frankly and freely expressing the truth as I understand it. I respect you position, and can understand very much why you find it appealing.
Richard

Oh, don`t worry - you won`t get rid of me that easy. ;)

No, I am truly honored to participate in this discussion with you. If time allowed me too, I would always be here. :)

Richard Amiel McGough
06-27-2007, 12:49 PM
Ok, everyone who reads this should know that I am a novice when it comes to bible-knowledge and theology. I therefore do not know what orthodox or non-orthodox theology teaches.

But I try to keep an open mind in my search for the truth, and so far I haven`t found any flaws or errors with "God is everything there is".

In other words, I`m ready to learn. ;)
And that's why it's good to have you here! I would rather have one member who is "ready to learn" (like myself) than a hundred with open mouths and closed ears!


I think this is how I see it :

God (YHWH) is 100% light. Satan (the devil) hasn`t practically got any light inside of him at all. But nevertheless, he is still "inside" of God, because God is everything there is.
And that's the problem ... you are starting with a faulty premise. You begin by denying that God could create matter out of nothing, and so feel compelled "by logic" to believe that He had to make it "out of Himself." This means that God is, at least in part, matter, whereas the Bible declares that God is spirit (John 4:24). It also means that God is, at least in part, evil. Furthermore, your suggestion that Satan "hasn't practically got any light inside of him at all" and yet is "still 'inside' God" directly contradicts your own statement that "God is 100% light" as well as the biblical declaration of the same truth in 1 John 1:5

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

Stated plainly: If God is 100% light, and Satan is "darkness" then Satan is not "inside God."

These are a few of the reasons why these ideas have been rejected in traditional Christian theology. Your ideas are actually much more congruent with Hindu philosophy, which basically says that all distinctions between God and Creation are Maya (illusion) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_%28illusion%29).


Further, my view tells me that this world, as we know it, is God (Light) decelerated/slowed down. Cutting a long story short : You are (a part of) God in a very slowed down "God-environment" called the universe, getting to know yourself again.
Again, I really understand the appeal of the whole idea. Not only does it present a unified view of all reality, but we get to see ourselves as "part of God." And we solve the problem of evil in one fell swoop (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/50500.html) by declaring its all an illusion!

Sounds too good to be true ... and I mean that literally. :lol:

Do you believe that these ideas are consistent with the biblical revelation? I know you are not a professional theologian, so don't worry about crossing your Is and dotting your Ts. I'm interested in how you, the Skybreaker, sees things from your vantage point.


In what way do you interpret "God is light" ?
In a full-spectrum sorta way. The Bible talks about light in both literal and figurative senses. I know that God often creates a lot of physical light when He interacts with people. I know that God calls His Word "light" because it brings understanding and knowledge. I'm definitely going to have to think about this one a while ... since there is a lot to it.

I take it you asked this question because you think that physical light is literally the "stuff" that God is made of, correct? That will require more discussion.


Obviously, I am one of the "too slowed down"-persons on this earth :yo: and I still need to understand what christianity find so threatening or wrong with the above idea?
Well, the primary "threat" is a false understanding of God, which then would lead to a false understanding of reality, and that is what the Bible calls "darkness" and darkness doesn't give us what we need for life.


Remove light and you are left with darkness, which is nothing but absense of light. Please correct me if I am wrong.
It depends on what kind of darkness you are talking about. If its literal darkness, then yes, it is defined as "absence of light." But if it is spiritual darkness, I suppose you could define it as "absence of God" or the "presence of sin." If its "doctrinal darkness" then it might be defined as the presence of a false teaching.


Well, how do you explain evil, the devil and the darkness?
Funny thing about the Bible. It doesn't even try to explain evil, the devil, and darkness. It uses language like "the mystery of iniquity." Perhaps it can not be explained. I think many errors may arise if we assume that every question has an answer. For example, the idea that God created everything "out of Himself" seems like the answer that is forced by the false assumption that there is an answer to the question "What did God created things from?".


Oh, don`t worry - you won`t get rid of me that easy. ;)

No, I am truly honored to participate in this discussion with you. If time allowed me too, I would always be here. :)

Very cool. I am certainly honored to have you here.

Richard

Skybreaker
07-07-2007, 05:04 PM
And that's why it's good to have you here! I would rather have one member who is "ready to learn" (like myself) than a hundred with open mouths and closed ears!
Richard

Well, I feel that as I`m growing older (I`m in my mid-thirties) it`s getting harder to keep the open mind running. I guess it`s because I don`t like being wrong. But then - as I walk down the road I have this weird feeling that tells me that being wrong and making wrong moves are necessary steps in order to keep developing in Christ. I have been quite slow lately and feel that it`s time to "shape up" on many areas.

I think that managing life on earth as a human being is a very difficult task. I guess self-righteosness is one of my biggest stumbling blocks ; that I need to justify myself to the lord in order to be qualified for heaven. Perhaps this could be the start of another thread, but I can not stop thinking about the following questions:

1.What does it really take to believe in Jesus?
2.How can you be so sure of salvation when the Bible tells that Jesus will say "I do not know you" to many "christians" who have done LOTS of powerful work in HIS name (Matt 7,22) ?




And that's the problem ... you are starting with a faulty premise. You begin by denying that God could create matter out of nothing, and so feel compelled "by logic" to believe that He had to make it "out of Himself." This means that God is, at least in part, matter, whereas the Bible declares that God is spirit (John 4:24). It also means that God is, at least in part, evil. Furthermore, your suggestion that Satan "hasn't practically got any light inside of him at all" and yet is "still 'inside' God" directly contradicts your own statement that "God is 100% light" as well as the biblical declaration of the same truth in 1 John 1:5

Richard

Wow, this is hard for my mind to grasp. I have never thought about God creating matter out of nothing. To me, that sounds like a paradox. How do you define nothing?

But yes, I do believe that God, at least in part, can be evil, as everything in this world derives from/is Him.




"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

Stated plainly: If God is 100% light, and Satan is "darkness" then Satan is not "inside God."Richard

I believe that God (Light) is able to slow down/retard Himself and that this is what we are experiencing right here and now.

Spiritually speaking in a (trying to be) humourous way ; Satan is the bloodiest, slowest and most useless driver ever existed in this universe.



These are a few of the reasons why these ideas have been rejected in traditional Christian theology. Your ideas are actually much more congruent with Hindu philosophy, which basically says that all distinctions between God and Creation are Maya (illusion) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_%28illusion%29).
Richard

Do you think this perception of God can be critical for salvation? Is there any way this belief can contradict believing in Jesus?



Again, I really understand the appeal of the whole idea. Not only does it present a unified view of all reality, but we get to see ourselves as "part of God." And we solve the problem of evil in one fell swoop (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/50500.html) by declaring its all an illusion!
Sounds too good to be true ... and I mean that literally. :lol:
Richard

What about after Armageddon? Where is evil then? What is TIME really all about? :rolleyes:

Please enlighten me with your thoughts. I feel there are too many unknown parameters in this world to handle. :confused2:




Do you believe that these ideas are consistent with the biblical revelation? I know you are not a professional theologian, so don't worry about crossing your Is and dotting your Ts. I'm interested in how you, the Skybreaker, sees things from your vantage point.

Richard

Well, I am a musician and a dreamer and 99% convinced that Jesus is the only gatekeeper to a better world, or "heaven", if you like. I also believe that hell is a physical place located inside of this earth, ruled by the evil king Satan/Lucifer/ the old snake (serpent) and his demons.

May I qualify for "Freak of the week" now? :yo:



In a full-spectrum sorta way. The Bible talks about light in both literal and figurative senses. I know that God often creates a lot of physical light when He interacts with people. I know that God calls His Word "light" because it brings understanding and knowledge. I'm definitely going to have to think about this one a while ... since there is a lot to it.
Richard

Count me in! :pop2:



I take it you asked this question because you think that physical light is literally the "stuff" that God is made of, correct? That will require more discussion.
Richard

Yes, I think that sounds like a sufficient statement, but still I`m keeping all doors open for "greater things than Light"...




Well, the primary "threat" is a false understanding of God, which then would lead to a false understanding of reality, and that is what the Bible calls "darkness" and darkness doesn't give us what we need for life.
Richard

I agree. I find it hard to try and "preach" the Bible to non-believers when I obviously haven`t got the whole picture/full understanding of what`s really going on here in this world myself yet. How can I possibly teach others or tell them what to believe in?



It depends on what kind of darkness you are talking about. If its literal darkness, then yes, it is defined as "absence of light." But if it is spiritual darkness, I suppose you could define it as "absence of God" or the "presence of sin." If its "doctrinal darkness" then it might be defined as the presence of a false teaching.
Richard

I am not sure if evil in any way is a force on its own or the absence of God / the good force, if so my mind tells me that : Evil = -1, Nothing = 0 and Good = 1, if not : Evil = 0, Nothing = 0 and Good = 1

Does this make any sense to you?



Funny thing about the Bible. It doesn't even try to explain evil, the devil, and darkness. It uses language like "the mystery of iniquity." Perhaps it can not be explained. I think many errors may arise if we assume that every question has an answer. For example, the idea that God created everything "out of Himself" seems like the answer that is forced by the false assumption that there is an answer to the question "What did God created things from?".
Richard

Your intellect & Bibleknowledge is far superior to mine. Please share as much of your thoughts on this as time allows you to. It`s definately exciting. But - please go slow so I can follow... :)

Thanks!

Skybreaker

Richard Amiel McGough
07-12-2007, 05:02 PM
Hi Skybreaker,

Sorry it took so long to get back to you on this very interesting thread. But I've been real busy developing the code for the database.


Well, I feel that as I`m growing older (I`m in my mid-thirties) it`s getting harder to keep the open mind running. I guess it`s because I don`t like being wrong. But then - as I walk down the road I have this weird feeling that tells me that being wrong and making wrong moves are necessary steps in order to keep developing in Christ. I have been quite slow lately and feel that it`s time to "shape up" on many areas.

I think that managing life on earth as a human being is a very difficult task. I guess self-righteosness is one of my biggest stumbling blocks ; that I need to justify myself to the lord in order to be qualified for heaven. Perhaps this could be the start of another thread, but I can not stop thinking about the following questions:

1.What does it really take to believe in Jesus?
2.How can you be so sure of salvation when the Bible tells that Jesus will say "I do not know you" to many "christians" who have done LOTS of powerful work in HIS name (Matt 7,22) ?


Now those are some good questions that we all need to ask ourselves. AS for number 1, I think the answer from the Lord is the best I could imagine. You seem to already know it really:


Matthew 18:3-4 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And on that note (and on the same Spoke) God also has an answer for your question #2:


1 John 3:18-23 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. I really believe that those two passages answer both questions. I find it fascinating that they both speak to us as "little children" and that they both align on Spoke 18. I hope they speak to your heart.


Wow, this is hard for my mind to grasp. I have never thought about God creating matter out of nothing. To me, that sounds like a paradox. How do you define nothing?
Big fat meaningless books on philosophy have been devoted to the meaning of "nothing." I find that outlandishly ironic! :lol:

If we can't even define "nothing" then we probably shouldn't invent philosophies about the nature of the Creator. Best stick to the revelation He has given us of Himself. Of course, its also wise to explore these issues and ask lots of questions ... I'm just taking this moment to remind ourselves of how utterly limited our little minds really are.


But yes, I do believe that God, at least in part, can be evil, as everything in this world derives from/is Him.
Well, I agree that God created a world in which evil exists, and He knew what He was doing when He did it. But that does not imply that God is Himself evil in any way at all. For example, I let my son drive a car knowing full well that he could be killed. Does that make me a killer? The agent of his death? I don't think so.



"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

Stated plainly: If God is 100% light, and Satan is "darkness" then Satan is not "inside God.I believe that God (Light) is able to slow down/retard Himself and that this is what we are experiencing right here and now.
First you say God is evil, now you say he is retarded! Where do you get these ideas? Are you a triple PhD Professor of Philopholy? :lol:

Just kidding, of course. I know what you meant. We are modulated bits of God. I understand the idea, and agree that it has some appeal for the reasons stated in a previous post. But I don't think it is true. I really do believe that God is able to create things that are "not Him." It seems your whole system depends on the denial of that point. But that's not a very strong foundation for a philosophy is it?



These are a few of the reasons why these ideas have been rejected in traditional Christian theology. Your ideas are actually much more congruent with Hindu philosophy, which basically says that all distinctions between God and Creation are Maya (illusion) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_%28illusion%29).Do you think this perception of God can be critical for salvation? Is there any way this belief can contradict believing in Jesus?

No ... the only think I know of that is critical for salvation is a faithful response to the True God. Now you may even be confused about the True God, but the True God is not confused about you. He knows if you are responding to His Call with faith or not. That's all that matters. Of course, if you do respond to Him with faith, then I am quite confident your understanding of His True Identity will grow as time goes on.

As for your ideas "contradicting belief in Jesus" - I don't know really, because I don't understand all your ideas yet. But on the face of it, I wouldn't think so necessarily since we all are at different stages of understanding Jesus, and your ideas are very philosophical, which means that there is a high likelihood that even you don't fully understand your ideas yet. (Most philopholers I've read don't seem to understand their own writings.)


What about after Armageddon? Where is evil then? What is TIME really all about? :rolleyes:
Thanks for the "rollie eyes" - I almost thought you were serious! Ha! Augusting once was asked what God was doing before He invented time, and he answered something like "Inventing hell for people who ask such questions!" or so I've been told. You get the point.


Please enlighten me with your thoughts. I feel there are too many unknown parameters in this world to handle. :confused2:
Well, if God is retarded, what do you expect from me? Best I can do is endarken you, I fear! :blah:

Just kidding! But really, many of the issues you struggle with seem philosophical in nature. How is your relation with God going to change if you become the first philosopher to really really really understand NOTHING?

I would think you need to get your feet on the ground. Christ is reality. He will give you His Spirit to guide you into all truth.


I agree. I find it hard to try and "preach" the Bible to non-believers when I obviously haven`t got the whole picture/full understanding of what`s really going on here in this world myself yet. How can I possibly teach others or tell them what to believe in?
Exactly. That's why I enjoy this forum so much. It helps me figure out what what I know, and what I don't know, I believe, what I don't believe, and why.


I am not sure if evil in any way is a force on its own or the absence of God / the good force, if so my mind tells me that : Evil = -1, Nothing = 0 and Good = 1, if not : Evil = 0, Nothing = 0 and Good = 1

Does this make any sense to you?
Does it make sense? Yes. Do I think its true? No. Looking at history makes me think there probably are real "forces of evil". But you are in good company. Many folks who have wrestled with the problem of evil have concluded it was best defined as an "absence of God" or an "absence of Good."


Your intellect & Bibleknowledge is far superior to mine. Please share as much of your thoughts on this as time allows you to. It`s definately exciting. But - please go slow so I can follow... :)

Thanks!

Skybreaker
Are you saying I need to retard myself still more? :D <snicker snort!> :D

The beauty of this forum is we can go as slow as we like. And we can digress on as many side paths as we like. And since everything is recorded we can say "But YOU SAID blah blah blah" and prove it by linking to the original post. Its gonna be a lot of fun! I'm really glad you are here to challenge my preconceptions.

Talk more soon, my friend,

Richard

MuadDib987
07-30-2007, 11:12 PM
(Minor tangent: The Revealing Science of God is also a great song. But as much as I like Yes, it's disheartening that their lyrical content is predominantly built around spacey feel-good New Age composites that regard Jesus as merely one ancient wise man among many.)

Richard Amiel McGough
07-31-2007, 11:49 AM
(Minor tangent: The Revealing Science of God is also a great song. But as much as I like Yes, it's disheartening that their lyrical content is predominantly built around spacey feel-good New Age composites that regard Jesus as merely one ancient wise man among many.)
Think they got it from the House of YHWH?

MuadDib987
08-01-2007, 03:52 AM
I think much of their stuff is actually Hindu based. Here's wiki page with info on this particular record. . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tales_from_Topographic_Oceans

Richard Amiel McGough
08-01-2007, 08:13 AM
I think much of their stuff is actually Hindu based. Here's wiki page with info on this particular record. . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tales_from_Topographic_Oceans
That's interesting, because that's exactly what I told SkyBreaker about the philosophy of the "House of YHWH." So whether the connection is intentional or not, I do not know, but the ideas are similar.

MuadDib987
11-30-2007, 07:21 PM
(Minor tangent: The Revealing Science of God is also a great song. But as much as I like Yes, it's disheartening that their lyrical content is predominantly built around spacey feel-good New Age composites that regard Jesus as merely one ancient wise man among many.)

FWIW, I found this record online, and listened to it for the first time in forever. I never before noticed how poorly the vocals are mixed, nor the overall feel that a handful of good musical ideas were haphazardly stitched together to build what turned out to be more cumbersome than ambitious. No wonder it received the mediocre reviews it did :)

http://www.mp3real.ru/mp3/yes/tales_from_topographic_oceans/