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Richard Amiel McGough
06-05-2007, 10:28 PM
This thread is for questions, comments, and reviews of the Bible Wheel book.

RAM

Skybreaker
06-10-2007, 04:56 PM
Allright, I`ve got one for you :

Have you received any reviews from any christian magazine, website or other "high-profiled" authority/spokesman (priest, rabbi etc) as of yet?

Richard Amiel McGough
06-10-2007, 08:07 PM
Allright, I`ve got one for you :

Have you received any reviews from any christian magazine, website or other "high-profiled" authority/spokesman (priest, rabbi etc) as of yet?
Nothing from anyone with a "high profile." I've received some great letters from pastors of local congregations, but there's something rather mysterious about the general silence. I really think it is a "God thing." All in His time.

White
06-11-2007, 06:01 PM
That's not really unusual - it's hard to review something that tells the truth and by reviewing it, the truth will be known and the truth shall set free. But then at the same time, one must be big enough to be able to admit "error" - Organized Religion might not be willing to go that far, but then at the same time, the Catholic Church / Pope John Paul II did apologize for the errors of the Church in 2000 (concerning Judaism, other Christian Religions etc. )

But as Richard says, it's a "God thing" and we cannot argue with God Almighty. HIS timing is perfect and nothing shall be hidden because HE says: "For lack of knowledge MY people shall die", how come YOU believers are so shy? Shout it to the world, let them see, let them hear... Richard is shouting from the rooftops... and all shall hear. Romans 11:32 : "God has shut up ALL in disobedience so that HE might show MERCY to all." All means all. All Christian Religions have some things right and some things wrong, but may the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY be the judge. The Biblewheel is just one of the many avenues GOD uses to open the eyes of the blind, the ears of the deaf etc. Although the 66 books of the Biblewheel are very convincing - and the book of Lamentations even hints at "66" in the THIRD (for the Trinity?)Chapter which has "66" verses - while all the other Chapters have only "22" verses according to the Hebrew Alphabeth.
"Glory to God in the highest..." Let's pray for "HIGH PROFILE" endorsements, soon, even in these days, according to the perfect plan of GOD as laid out in Zechariah 8:18ff : v.23 "In those days ten men of every nation shall take hold of one Jew by the edge of his garment and say, "LET US GO WITH YOU, FOR WE HAVE HEARD THAT GOD IS WITH YOU." Amen & Amen.




Nothing from anyone with a "high profile." I've received some great letters from pastors of local congregations, but there's something rather mysterious about the general silence. I really think it is a "God thing." All in His time.

Richard Amiel McGough
06-12-2007, 09:06 AM
That's not really unusual - it's hard to review something that tells the truth and by reviewing it, the truth will be known and the truth shall set free. But then at the same time, one must be big enough to be able to admit "error" - Organized Religion might not be willing to go that far, but then at the same time, the Catholic Church / Pope John Paul II did apologize for the errors of the Church in 2000 (concerning Judaism, other Christian Religions etc. )
Yes, many Catholics have felt very threatened by the Bible Wheel because it confirms the divine design of the "Protestant" Bible. But the truth is that the 66 books are agreed upon by all Christians everywhere. The only dispute concerns the apocrypha, so the Bible Wheel should be a point of unity, not division. Of course, when one group of men tries to set itself up as the ultimate authority over all believers everywhere, the Bible Wheel literally becomes anathema, by which I mean the Council of Trent excommunicated anybody who does not hold the Apocrypha as inspired Scripture. Here is how they said it (http://www.bible-researcher.com/trent1.html), after listing the 66 books + apocrypha of the Vulgate:


But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema.

So Catholics will have a very hard time receiving the Bible Wheel as a revelation from God because it contradicts the false human traditions that have become embedded in the Catholic faith.


But as Richard says, it's a "God thing" and we cannot argue with God Almighty. HIS timing is perfect and nothing shall be hidden because HE says: "For lack of knowledge MY people shall die", how come YOU believers are so shy? Shout it to the world, let them see, let them hear... Richard is shouting from the rooftops... and all shall hear. Romans 11:32 : "God has shut up ALL in disobedience so that HE might show MERCY to all." All means all. All Christian Religions have some things right and some things wrong, but may the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY be the judge. The Biblewheel is just one of the many avenues GOD uses to open the eyes of the blind, the ears of the deaf etc. Although the 66 books of the Biblewheel are very convincing - and the book of Lamentations even hints at "66" in the THIRD (for the Trinity?)Chapter which has "66" verses - while all the other Chapters have only "22" verses according to the Hebrew Alphabeth.
"Glory to God in the highest..." Let's pray for "HIGH PROFILE" endorsements, soon, even in these days, according to the perfect plan of GOD as laid out in Zechariah 8:18ff : v.23 "In those days ten men of every nation shall take hold of one Jew by the edge of his garment and say, "LET US GO WITH YOU, FOR WE HAVE HEARD THAT GOD IS WITH YOU." Amen & Amen.

Amen! :pray:

Emmanuel is with us!

Shout it out! :thumb:

White
06-17-2007, 06:58 AM
Richard, remember, we sent a copy of the Biblewheel to Archbishop Flynn and Cardinal William Keeler from Baltimore - Cardinal Keeler acknowledged receipt and thanked me for sending him THE BIBLEWHEEL... I met Cardinal Keeler at Temple Israel around 2001 - he is a faithful servant of the LORD - and as I understand the second highest on Jewish / Catholic relations - He accepted my writings and my walk with Jesus graciously with these words: "Thank you for carrying the cross of Christ!" I pass that onto you, Richard!

Let's work on sending one to Pope Benedict - he is a very smart man - and I believe that he is guided by the HOLY SPIRIT - what slums would the world be in without the works and prayers of the Catholic Church - even if many of them go to Church because of obligation, they do attend and GOD always puts OBEDIENCE above SACRIFICE (Micah 6:8). Even very recently Pope Benedict condemned all abortions and stated that anybody who supports abortion (mostly directed at politicians because they make the laws) should be excommunicated. That is a strong stand and politically incorrct, but the Church NEVER changed on this most important point - Let's give her - the Catholic Church - Credit for the GOOD she does worldwide. We are the hands and feet of Jesus, our LORD and SAVIOR, and we proclaim HIS WORD to all the Nations and as you said, without the Catholic Church we would not even have our Bible which she preserved for us from the death of Christ to the Reformation and beyond. Glory to GOD in the highest...
In His most Holy Name,
White

White
06-18-2007, 06:44 PM
Hi Richard,
Thanks for your link to the Church Document - You are the greatest - and never shy to show what has been taught even 460 years ago. I looked up the "Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent"
celebrated on the eight day of the month of April, in the year 1546 -

Wow - that is 4/8/1546 - exactly 402 years before my birth date -4/8/48!!
and Israel's birth year!

Just for fun - I take the 402 years and connect it to

ISAIAH 4:2 ff.

"In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in ZION and he that remains in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem; When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning. And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night; for upon all the glory shall be a defense. And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain."

Any comment on those "Messianic" verses?

Does GOD have a plan ? Or is HE just having fun with me in particular?

If you read my story - you will find out that the LORD showed me ISAIAH
4:1 on 12/22/1996 - and that's of course when I discovered the rest of
these verses, which are very different from the first verse. But I immediately saw them with the eyes of the Messianic Kingdom on Earth...

And these verses also reminded me of Moses in the wilderness guided by a cloud by day and fire by night - the very last verse of Exodus - 40:38 - "For the cloud of the LORD was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys."

If only the LORD would speak again in such a convincing, visible, clear, faithbuilding manner; maybe then the blind would see, the deaf hear, the lame walk and the dead be raised to eternal life. And the angels in Heaven would sing GLORY TO GOD IN THE HIGHEST. Amen & Amen.

In CHRIST,
White

PS: Any Links on Isaiah 4:1-6? - especially on 4:1 - "And in that day SEVEN women shall take hold of ONE man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel; only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach."
Actually the Living Bible reads as follow: "And in that day, seven woman shall take hold of one man, saying we will eat our own bread, wear our own clothes, only let us all marry you!" Would the LORD really ask SEVEN women to MARRY ONE MAN? The explanations for these texts invariably explain that there will be such few men left - during the times of tribulation -
that 7 women will share one man - I just never bought that because it would contradict the WORD OF GOD -
ONE MAN, ONE WOMAN!

This is the way I read it : In that day - Seven WOMEN = 7 CHURCHES meaning "all" the Churches because 7 is the number of perfection, will take hold of ONE MAN = JESUS / Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH, wearing their own
priestly clothes, eating their own HOLY COMMUNION, but ALL being MARRIED to JESUS / Y'SHUA for HIS GLORY alone!
Does that not make more sense? Please comment!

White
08-27-2007, 04:21 PM
Hey Richard,

I introduced Pastor Harris Williams from Bethel Christian Fellowship in St. Paul (formerly a Synagogue as I found out at the end of the evening - with still visible signs everywhere - Star of David, Menorah, Torah carved into the wooden benches, and they have a Sukkah Room!) to the Biblewheel last Friday - (The Reading in the RCC on Friday morning was from Revelation 21:9 - Come here, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb"... - my website www.watchandpray.com is based on Revelation 21 - the NEW JERUSALEM coming down from Heaven)...

Pastor Williams was the officiant at the Wedding of Diana & Nathan - Monique's White Diamonds and I donated their wedding rings and that's how I became "part" of the wedding.

After the Ceremony, I was talking to Pastor Williams (I was wearing the Biblewheel Medallion) and as I was talking about "it", the clasp came undone (I don't know how, but God knows). Thus I was able to put it in the Pastor's hands, explaining the symmetry etc. This morning he called me - all excited - because he spent the weekend on your website - especially Spoke 22 hit home with him (and he and his wife also never had a Wedding ring... and they are married 24 years).

The LORD is putting on his heart to start an INTERCULTURAL CHURCH (not dependant on man made laws and doctrine, but preaching the Gospel of Love (Love God and your neighbor as yourself) , Purity (no sex outside of marriage, no abortions etc), Life, Committment, Honesty, helping the poor etc.- and he said verbatim: "All I need is the Bible and the Biblewheel (Website)" - I told him about your book which got him even more excited. I "loaned" mine to Jeff, but you can get a package ready with 5 books to my address. I'll pay the cost on your website. Please sign all the books with your name and ISAIAH 1:18 .

I will meet with this wonderful Pastor tomorrow - he liked your wedding Ring Richard - Good things will happen to all who "Delight themselves in the LORD". AMen. I thought you would enjoy this story!

Shalom to all, especially JERUSALEM AND THE HOLY LAND
White

White
08-27-2007, 04:25 PM
Hey Richard,

I introduced Pastor Harris Williams from Bethel Christian Fellowship in St. Paul (formerly a Synagogue as I found out at the end of the evening - with still visible signs everywhere - Star of David, Menorah, Torah carved into the wooden benches, and they have a Sukkah Room!) to the Biblewheel last Friday - (The Reading in the RCC on Friday morning was from Revelation 21:9 - Come here, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb"... - my website www.watchandpray.com is based on Revelation 21 - the NEW JERUSALEM coming down from Heaven)...

Pastor Williams was the officiant at the Wedding of Diana & Nathan - Monique's White Diamonds and I donated their wedding rings and that's how I became "part" of the wedding.

After the Ceremony, I was talking to Pastor Williams (I was wearing the Biblewheel Medallion) and I started talking about "it", the clasp came undone (I don't know how, but God knows). Thus I was able to put it in the Pastor's hands, explaining the symmetry etc. This morning he called me - all excited - because he spent the weekend on your website - especially Spoke 22 hit home with him (and he and his wife also never had a Wedding ring... and they are married 24 years).

The LORD is putting on his heart to start an INTERCULTURAL CHURCH (not dependant on man made laws and doctrine, but preaching the Gospel of Love (Love God and your neighbor as yourself) , Purity (no sex outside of marriage, no abortions etc), Life, Committment, Honesty, helping the poor etc.- and he said verbatim: "All I need is the Bible and the Biblewheel (Website)" - I told him about your book which got him even more excited. I "loaned" mine to Jeff, but you can get a package ready with 5 books to my address. I'll pay the cost on your website. Please sign all the books with your name and ISAIAH 1:18 .

I will meet with this wonderful Pastor tomorrow - he liked your wedding Ring Richard - Good things will happen to all who "Delight themselves in the LORD". AMen. I thought you would enjoy this story!

Shalom to all, especially JERUSALEM AND THE HOLY LAND :pray::pray::pray:
White

Richard Amiel McGough
08-27-2007, 07:08 PM
Hey Richard,

I introduced Pastor Harris Williams from Bethel Christian Fellowship in St. Paul (formerly a Synagogue as I found out at the end of the evening - with still visible signs everywhere - Star of David, Menorah, Torah carved into the wooden benches, and they have a Sukkah Room!) to the Biblewheel last Friday - (The Reading in the RCC on Friday morning was from Revelation 21:9 - Come here, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb"... - my website www.watchandpray.com (http://www.watchandpray.com) is based on Revelation 21 - the NEW JERUSALEM coming down from Heaven)...

Pastor Williams was the officiant at the Wedding of Diana & Nathan - Monique's White Diamonds and I donated their wedding rings and that's how I became "part" of the wedding.

After the Ceremony, I was talking to Pastor Williams (I was wearing the Biblewheel Medallion) and as I was talking about "it", the clasp came undone (I don't know how, but God knows). Thus I was able to put it in the Pastor's hands, explaining the symmetry etc. This morning he called me - all excited - because he spent the weekend on your website - especially Spoke 22 hit home with him (and he and his wife also never had a Wedding ring... and they are married 24 years).

The LORD is putting on his heart to start an INTERCULTURAL CHURCH (not dependant on man made laws and doctrine, but preaching the Gospel of Love (Love God and your neighbor as yourself) , Purity (no sex outside of marriage, no abortions etc), Life, Committment, Honesty, helping the poor etc.- and he said verbatim: "All I need is the Bible and the Biblewheel (Website)" - I told him about your book which got him even more excited. I "loaned" mine to Jeff, but you can get a package ready with 5 books to my address. I'll pay the cost on your website. Please sign all the books with your name andISAIAH 1:18 .

I will meet with this wonderful Pastor tomorrow - he liked your wedding Ring Richard - Good things will happen to all who "Delight themselves in the LORD". AMen. I thought you would enjoy this story!

Shalom to all, especially JERUSALEM AND THE HOLY LAND
White

Hi Monique,

Wow! That's quite a testimony! I hope you told him to feel free to contact me with any questions or comments. You can always give out my email address .... you don't need to ask.

I am not surprised that Spoke 22 "spoke" to him. It is perhaps the most amazing and heart touching Spoke on the Wheel. It touches our blessed hope, to be with Jesus our Beloved! Rose recently wrote an excellent review of the intertwined themes here (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=167). Have you read it? (I just checked, and see you did. Nice comments! I too love it when God shows us that we are "on the same track!")

Talk more soon,

Richard

Victor
09-10-2009, 12:59 PM
I found the following review of the Bible Wheel Book in the cache of Google (http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:RyP1TnX6QK4J:allaboutkindle.info/The_Bible_Wheel_A_Revelation_Of_The_Divine_Unity_O f_The_Bible.php). The author is anonymous. It is a very pleasant and to-the-point article.

The Bible Wheel: A Revelation Of The Divine Unity Of The Bible


The Bible Wheel is a large format hardback book written and published by Richard Amiel McGough and inspired by a remarkable discovery based on the correlation between the twenty-two letters of the Hebrew alphabet and the sixty-six books of the Bible.

It is a discovery which opens a rich vein of biblical exegesis. As McGough explains, the Bible wheel "emerges when we do nothing but take the list of the Sixty-Six Books and roll it up like a scroll on a spindle Wheel of Twenty-Two Spokes, corresponding to the Twenty-Two Letters of the Hebrew Alphabet. That is all there is to it."

That simple act of "rolling up" the Bible produces a remarkable view of the implicit unity of the structure of the whole Bible with numerous stunning correspondences between the three books that line up on each of the twenty-two spokes.

For example, if you start with Genesis, the first book of the Bible, and place it beneath Aleph the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet, on the first "spoke" and allocate each book in turn to each spoke, the twenty-third book of the Bible - Isaiah - will line up beneath Genesis, and the forty-fifth book - Romans - will line up beneath Genesis and Isaiah. It will then be seen that the first spoke of the wheel has on it the first books of three of the primary divisions of Scripture: the first Book of the Law; the first Book of the Prophets; the first Book of the Epistles.

Moreover, each of the three books on each of the spokes is shown to be intimately connected to the other two books that accompany it on its particular spoke. Thus, Genesis, Isaiah and Romans are shown to be books that give voice to ideas expressive of the symbolic meaning of Aleph, of origins, beginnings, birth and creation. The word "create" that is found in Genesis 1 is also found concentrated in Isaiah chapters 40-66. Romans contains the highest frequency of the corresponding Greek word for "create". Again, Isaiah is known as "the Romans of the Old Testament" because, like the epistle, it reveals the wretched state of the human heart and reveals the way of salvation.

McGough's book looks at the relationship between the three books on each of the twenty-two spokes in turn and discovers an astonishing number of correspondences between them and numerous clusters of words or phrases that appear in the books that share a particular spoke.

The structure of the wheel as a whole is also expounded and the way in which the seven major divisions of the Bible - Law, OT History, Wisdom, Major Prophets, Minor Prophets, NT History, Epistles - fall into place on the three divisions of the wheel is truly remarkable. The twenty-two epistles exactly fill the twenty-two spaces of the inner circle of the wheel, the Minor Prophets and OT History fill the bottom half of the two outer circles, while the books of Law, Wisdom, Major Prophets and NT History slot into each quarter of the upper halves of the two outer circles to replicate the pattern of the tri-radiant nimbus.

Finally, McGough presents the discoveries, or revelations expounded in The Bible Wheel with modesty, Christian joy and a sense of wonder that adds to the delight of reading the book. Where the initial insight was granted to somebody else he generously acknowledges the source of inspiration, as when his wife provided him with one of the key metaphors of the book:

"I had been struggling for some time to find an introduction to the Wheel that would make it intuitively obvious I had not "done anything" myself to produce the pattern. The solution came when my wife Rose was meditating on Revelation 5 and noticed a footnote that said the "book" was probably a scroll..." (p. 88)

The Bible Wheel follows the traditional sequence of the Protestant Bible in general and, happily, the King James version in particular. Yet, another pleasing characteristic of the book is the way in which McGough draws on a wide range of sources beyond denominational confines, particularly when looking at the way in which the scriptures have inspired Christian art and how the patterns found therein are reflected in the structure of the Bible wheel.

I would recommend The Bible Wheel, which is available from Richard McGough's website at www.BibleWheel.com, as an excellent gift to Bible readers everywhere. It will open up many fruitful avenues of contemplation and revelation for them, deepen their knowledge of and appreciation for the inherent unity and unspeakable poetic truth and beauty of the Bible.

Rose
09-10-2009, 04:01 PM
I found the following review of the Bible Wheel Book in the cache of Google (http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:RyP1TnX6QK4J:allaboutkindle.info/The_Bible_Wheel_A_Revelation_Of_The_Divine_Unity_O f_The_Bible.php). The author is anonymous. It is a very pleasant and to-the-point article.

The Bible Wheel: A Revelation Of The Divine Unity Of The Bible


The Bible Wheel is a large format hardback book written and published by Richard Amiel McGough and inspired by a remarkable discovery based on the correlation between the twenty-two letters of the Hebrew alphabet and the sixty-six books of the Bible.

It is a discovery which opens a rich vein of biblical exegesis. As McGough explains, the Bible wheel "emerges when we do nothing but take the list of the Sixty-Six Books and roll it up like a scroll on a spindle Wheel of Twenty-Two Spokes, corresponding to the Twenty-Two Letters of the Hebrew Alphabet. That is all there is to it."

That simple act of "rolling up" the Bible produces a remarkable view of the implicit unity of the structure of the whole Bible with numerous stunning correspondences between the three books that line up on each of the twenty-two spokes.

For example, if you start with Genesis, the first book of the Bible, and place it beneath Aleph the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet, on the first "spoke" and allocate each book in turn to each spoke, the twenty-third book of the Bible - Isaiah - will line up beneath Genesis, and the forty-fifth book - Romans - will line up beneath Genesis and Isaiah. It will then be seen that the first spoke of the wheel has on it the first books of three of the primary divisions of Scripture: the first Book of the Law; the first Book of the Prophets; the first Book of the Epistles.

Moreover, each of the three books on each of the spokes is shown to be intimately connected to the other two books that accompany it on its particular spoke. Thus, Genesis, Isaiah and Romans are shown to be books that give voice to ideas expressive of the symbolic meaning of Aleph, of origins, beginnings, birth and creation. The word "create" that is found in Genesis 1 is also found concentrated in Isaiah chapters 40-66. Romans contains the highest frequency of the corresponding Greek word for "create". Again, Isaiah is known as "the Romans of the Old Testament" because, like the epistle, it reveals the wretched state of the human heart and reveals the way of salvation.

McGough's book looks at the relationship between the three books on each of the twenty-two spokes in turn and discovers an astonishing number of correspondences between them and numerous clusters of words or phrases that appear in the books that share a particular spoke.

The structure of the wheel as a whole is also expounded and the way in which the seven major divisions of the Bible - Law, OT History, Wisdom, Major Prophets, Minor Prophets, NT History, Epistles - fall into place on the three divisions of the wheel is truly remarkable. The twenty-two epistles exactly fill the twenty-two spaces of the inner circle of the wheel, the Minor Prophets and OT History fill the bottom half of the two outer circles, while the books of Law, Wisdom, Major Prophets and NT History slot into each quarter of the upper halves of the two outer circles to replicate the pattern of the tri-radiant nimbus.

Finally, McGough presents the discoveries, or revelations expounded in The Bible Wheel with modesty, Christian joy and a sense of wonder that adds to the delight of reading the book. Where the initial insight was granted to somebody else he generously acknowledges the source of inspiration, as when his wife provided him with one of the key metaphors of the book:

"I had been struggling for some time to find an introduction to the Wheel that would make it intuitively obvious I had not "done anything" myself to produce the pattern. The solution came when my wife Rose was meditating on Revelation 5 and noticed a footnote that said the "book" was probably a scroll..." (p. 88)

The Bible Wheel follows the traditional sequence of the Protestant Bible in general and, happily, the King James version in particular. Yet, another pleasing characteristic of the book is the way in which McGough draws on a wide range of sources beyond denominational confines, particularly when looking at the way in which the scriptures have inspired Christian art and how the patterns found therein are reflected in the structure of the Bible wheel.

I would recommend The Bible Wheel, which is available from Richard McGough's website at www.BibleWheel.com (http://www.BibleWheel.com), as an excellent gift to Bible readers everywhere. It will open up many fruitful avenues of contemplation and revelation for them, deepen their knowledge of and appreciation for the inherent unity and unspeakable poetic truth and beauty of the Bible.

Wow!

What an excellent review! I wish we knew the author.

He did a very good job of presenting the Bible Wheel in a sharp and understandable way. Laying out the structure of the Wheel with clarity and precision.

So, if just by chance (or God's direction) the author of the above book review happens to stumble upon this Forum and reads this post....I say, many thanks for a well written review. :thumb:

God Bless

Rose

Victor
03-27-2010, 11:52 AM
Hey there Richard!

As I read Chapter 3 of the first part of the book, there was one thing that I found missing. Page 49 says:

There is a strong correlation between the thematic flow of the Seven Days with that of the Seven Divisions of the Bible. While a detailed analysis is beyond the scope of this section, a few highlights should make the correlation clear.
The reader is led to think that some other part of the Book will eventually give a "detailed analysis" of this correlation. So as I progressed the reading I thought that sooner or later that analysis would be offered, but as I finished the book I discovered that it was found outside not only of the scope of that section but also outside of the scope of the whole book. It ended up not making it into the final text. So I thought that we could explore this correlation between the Seven Days and the Seven Divisions. I always forget to post this. What do you think?

Richard Amiel McGough
03-27-2010, 12:05 PM
Hey there Richard!

As I read Chapter 3 of the first part of the book, there was one thing that I found missing. Page 49 says:
There is a strong correlation between the thematic flow of the Seven Days with that of the Seven Divisions of the Bible. While a detailed analysis is beyond the scope of this section, a few highlights should make the correlation clear.
The reader is led to think that some other part of the Book will eventually give a "detailed analysis" of this correlation. So as I progressed the reading I thought that sooner or later that analysis would be offered, but as I finished the book I discovered that it was found outside not only of the scope of that section but also outside of the scope of the whole book. It ended up not making it into the final text. So I thought that we could explore this correlation between the Seven Days and the Seven Divisions. I always forget to post this. What do you think?
Hey Victor,

I think that is a great idea! And thanks for pointing out the discrepancy in the text.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head to get things going ... The strongest correlation I found is in the last two divisions:

Sixth Div (NT History) God became man in Christ, and on the Sixth Day God made man in His image.

Seventh Div (Epistles) proclaim NO WORKS - saved by Grace just like Seventh Day

There also is a strong link between the Third Div (Wisdom Books) and the Third Day (Fruit bearing trees). And the correlation with the Third Person is strong - Holy Spirit gives wisdom.

The Second Div opens with Joshua = Yehoshua = Jesus the Second Person of the Trinity.

And the First Div is dominated by Abraham = Father of a Multitude and corresponds well with the First Person of the Trinity.

I see a lot of light coming from many different angles here. Thanks for bringing it up.

Richard

Victor
04-05-2010, 02:50 PM
Hey Victor,

I think that is a great idea! And thanks for pointing out the discrepancy in the text.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head to get things going ... The strongest correlation I found is in the last two divisions:

Sixth Div (NT History) God became man in Christ, and on the Sixth Day God made man in His image.

Seventh Div (Epistles) proclaim NO WORKS - saved by Grace just like Seventh Day

There also is a strong link between the Third Div (Wisdom Books) and the Third Day (Fruit bearing trees). And the correlation with the Third Person is strong - Holy Spirit gives wisdom.

The Second Div opens with Joshua = Yehoshua = Jesus the Second Person of the Trinity.

And the First Div is dominated by Abraham = Father of a Multitude and corresponds well with the First Person of the Trinity.

I see a lot of light coming from many different angles here. Thanks for bringing it up.

Richard

Oh yes, there is a great correlation between the first three divisions and the Three Persons of the Blessed Trinity.

I was thinking in terms of the limited content of each day linking to the character and content of the respective division. So for example Div 1 links to God the Father and other themes, but the correlation between Day 1 and Division 1 is made through the concept of Light: thus the Law (Torah) is Light (Pro 6:23) and the Torah as the first canonical division links to Day 1 when Light is created. We only have the content of the day to link to the division. So, for example, what does Day 5 have to do with the Minor Prophets? I think we can take the study to that direction.

Victor
04-12-2010, 03:23 PM
Oh yes, there is a great correlation between the first three divisions and the Three Persons of the Blessed Trinity.

I was thinking in terms of the limited content of each day linking to the character and content of the respective division. So for example Div 1 links to God the Father and other themes, but the correlation between Day 1 and Division 1 is made through the concept of Light: thus the Law (Torah) is Light (Pro 6:23) and the Torah as the first canonical division links to Day 1 when Light is created. We only have the content of the day to link to the division. So, for example, what does Day 5 have to do with the Minor Prophets? I think we can take the study to that direction.

Maybe I should start a topic about this subject...

Victor
04-13-2010, 11:23 AM
Check the new thread The Sevenfold Bible Canon and the Seven Days of Creation (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1588).

Craig.Paardekooper
06-27-2014, 06:18 AM
This thread is for questions, comments, and reviews of the Bible Wheel book.

RAM

I would like to purchase this book, but live outside of USA. If you have an ebook version in pdf or word format, then I would like to purchase that, since I understand that you cannot ship a physical book to he UK.

Also, you might create a "reader" app for your book, so that even though it is distributed as an ebook, it cannot be read without purchase.

I think that your work is very important.

The pattern you discovered is hidden beneath the surface, and requires a trans-temporal causality. It is my opinion that it bears the same relationship to the physical letter as spirit bears to matter - that is, it points to a reality beyond matter.

Please let me know if the pdf is available, and I will forward the money directly to the email for your Paypal account

Regards

Craig

Richard Amiel McGough
06-27-2014, 07:44 AM
I would like to purchase this book, but live outside of USA. If you have an ebook version in pdf or word format, then I would like to purchase that, since I understand that you cannot ship a physical book to he UK.

Also, you might create a "reader" app for your book, so that even though it is distributed as an ebook, it cannot be read without purchase.

I think that your work is very important.

The pattern you discovered is hidden beneath the surface, and requires a trans-temporal causality. It is my opinion that it bears the same relationship to the physical letter as spirit bears to matter - that is, it points to a reality beyond matter.

Please let me know if the pdf is available, and I will forward the money directly to the email for your Paypal account

Regards

Craig
Hey there Craig,

Since I used to give the ebook away there are many free copies floating about on the web, such as this one (http://www.murraymoerman.com/1christ/scripture/BibleWheel.pdf) that I found after a quick Google.

I agree that the pattern appears to require a "trans-temporal" explanation, but there is a problem with that. It's not nearly as good as it could be, so it is difficult to imagine that an infinitely intelligent God deliberately designed it. On the contrary, it seems similar to what we would expect if it evolved since it is "optimal" given the 66 books, but not nearly as impressive as it would be if the content of those 66 books were different. And there is a lot of evidence that the pattern evolved over time since we have records of different canon lists. I discuss this in my article An Evolutionary Explanation of the Bible Wheel (http://www.biblewheel.com/blog/index.php/2011/11/27/an-evolutionary-explanation-of-the-bible-wheel/). Here it is:

AN EVOLUTIONARY EXPLANATION OF THE BIBLE WHEEL

For most of the years since I discovered the Bible Wheel in 1995 I felt it was pretty much “self-evident” that God had designed it. The patterns seemed so obvious and profound. I could not imagine how they could have happened by chance, and it seemed impossible that some secret group of humans had done it since the Jews would have had to anticipate the later Christian NT when they put together the OT. So it seemed like an air-tight iron-clad case. I filled my website with the evidence. I wrote a 412 page book. I was dumbfounded that most folks, including Bible-believing Christians, could not see what I saw.

My conviction was strengthened by that fact that no one came close to presenting anything like a significant challenge to my claims despite endless hours on very hostile forums hosted by Christians, Jews, and Skeptics. I believed that the Bible Wheel was truly perfect in the sense explained in the Bible Wheel Challenge (http://www.biblewheel.com/Apologetics/BWChallenge.asp):

THE BIBLE WHEEL CHALLENGE asserts that the Christian canon is truly perfect in the twofold sense that 1) no rearrangement of its books would improve upon the patterns discovered on the Bible Wheel, and 2) any rearrangement would cause an obvious degradation of existing patterns. The challenge is for the opponent to suggest a rearrangement and present arguments for why such a change would produce patterns equal to or superior to those presently seen in the Bible Wheel. This challenge simultaneously proves the invincibility of the Bible Wheel even as it demonstrates the vacuity of the skeptics canard (http://www.biblewheel.com/Apologetics/Patterns.asp) that “patterns mean nothing because they can be found in anything.” It is an extremely powerful challenge because it can not be refuted without interacting with the data, and the data is the touchstone that proves the Bible Wheel.
Unfortunately, I never could find even one person out of the seven billion on this planet who would respond to this challenge. So like most things, if you want something done right, you need to do it yourself.

I think I’ve finally found a way to explain the Bible Wheel without any appeal to God, angels, or any other metaphysical woo-woo. I think the Bible Wheel evolved through a scribal selection process as the text was edited and rearranged by the countless scribes over the centuries before the printing press.

This idea came to me two days ago when Rose and I were on our three mile morning walk. She mentioned how the Bible Wheel was not as perfect as I thought it was. She explained that though it might be “optimal” given the 66 books, it was no where near as good as it could have been if I could have edited those books myself to make them fit the pattern even better. And that’s the key to the error in my Bible Wheel Challenge. Yes, the structure of the Christian Canon may be “optimal” given the 66 books, but it is nowhere near what we would expect if it were designed by an infinitely intelligent God who was free to write the books any way he wanted to.

And then I realized that this is exactly what we see in the evolution of species. They “look” designed because they are made of many parts that work together in amazing ways. People ask “how could that tiger just happen by chance?” Their error, of course, is that it didn’t happen by chance. It happened through a process of natural selection acting upon variations in the gene pool. And the lack of “perfection” becomes obvious when we look closely at the animals that were supposedly so well designed. We see thousand of “design flaws” everywhere we look. This is because evolution has no “foresight” and so might go one way and then another and so arrives at a good, but not optimal structure. This is exactly what I see in the Bible Wheel. There is enough evidence to show that it did not “happen by chance” but it’s not nearly good enough to prove that it was “intelligently designed.” So where’s the midpoint of these two excluded extremes? Evolution.

Michael Shermer accurately describes humans as “pattern-seeking story-telling animals” that are “quite adept at telling stories about patterns, whether they exist or not.” Now put these pattern-seekers in front of a “Holy Text” that they meditate upon day and night for fifteen hundred years (before the printing press) and watch how the document evolved over time. I’m not talking so much about the text itself, but rather the arrangement of the text – the order and content of the Canon – that resulted in the Bible Wheel. There were hundreds of variations for people to choose from. It took centuries for the final form to emerge under the action of the selective pressure of the scribes looking for, and imposing, patterns.

A brief look at the variations of the Christian canon during the first five centuries of the current era shows how many “genetic variations” were available for the scribes to select from. Here is a table given in James Moffatt’s Introduction to the Literature of the New Testament, (3rd ed. T&T Clark Ltd, 1981) where Moffatt he presented the variations in hte arrangements of groups of books. The abbreviations “Evv, Acts, Paul, Cath, Apoc.” stand for “Evanglia (Gospels), Acts, Pauline Epistles, Catholic Epistles (James, Peter, John, Jude) and Apocalypse (Revelation). Column B shows the pattern that was finally “selected” before the order was locked in place by the printing press. It is what we see in all modern Bibles.

Moffett’s Table of the various orders of early NT Manuscripts (source (http://books.google.com/books?id=uoMjoX54uzcC&pg=PA14&vq=historical+books+together&dq=james+moffatt+introduction+to+the+literature+of +the+new+testament&psp=1&sig=-XG3BHAt7j0dC1WepK9kyHpe56E))


A
B
C
D
E
F
G


Epiph.: Jerome: א: Codex Fuldensis, etc.
Council of Carthage: Amphil- ochius: Philastrius: Rufinus: Syriac Canon (om. Cath. and Apoc.), etc.
Chryso- stom.
Apost. Constit. ( ii.57).
Codex Alex- andrinus: Athanasius: Cyril: Leontius (6th cent.): Cassiodorus: Nicephorus (om. Apoc.), etc.
Council of Laodicea: Cyril of Jerusalem: John of Damascus, etc.
Augustine: Innocent 1.: Isidore of Spain (7th cent.), etc.


Evv
Paul
Acts
Cath
Apoc
Evv
Acts
Paul
Cath
Apoc
Paul
Evv
Acts
Cath
Acts
Paul
Evv
Evv
Acts
Cath
Paul
Apoc
Evv
Acts
Cath
Evv
Paul
Cath
Acts
Apoc



Now this table is represents only the most common arrangements. A much larger and more detailed list of 26 variations is found in The Canon Debate, edited by McDonald and Sanders, only one of which is identical in every way to the modern canon. An interesting curiosity, which may show the selection process in action, is the coupling of the book of Acts with Revelation either at the end of the canon or immediately after the Gospels. Was this a scribal intuition that these books “should” go together? If so, they would be pleased to see their intuition satisfied with the alignment of Acts and Revelation on Spoke 22. Likewise, the Song of Solomon was the final book on the canon list by Rufinus (404 C.E.), perhaps as an intuition of the love story being a consummation of the canon. If so, he too would be satisfied to see it’s alignment with Acts and Revelation on Spoke 22. It is a well-documented fact (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Tav_Song.asp) that many medieval Christian leaders wrote joint commentaries on the Song and the Apocalypse.

My hypothesis is also confirmed by this discussion of the arrangement of books found in A General Introduction to the Bible by Norman Geisler and William Nix. After discussing the various patterns of the canon in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and English Bibles, they said this:
Because the present structure of the English Bible has been subject to several historical variations, it would be too much to assume that it is God-given. The order as we have it is not, however, purely arbitrary. In fact, the order shows evidence of being purposefully directed, at least insofar as it falls into meaningful categories, because it presents the historical unfolding of the drama of redemptive revelation.
This fits my thesis. The pattern is obvious and too well designed to be chance, but there is too much evidence of “historical variations” (or shall we say deliberate manipulation?) to say that it is “God-given.”

So that is my thesis. I think it is possible that the order of the canon, and hence the pattern of the Bible Wheel, was slowly selected from a wide variety of hundreds of possibilities over a period of fifteen hundred years to fit the intuitions and desires of the pattern-finding and pattern-creating scribes. This hypothesis explains how we got the patterns that could not have happened by chance, and why those patterns are inferior to what we would expect if the Bible were deliberately designed by an infinitely intelligent and wise God.

Craig.Paardekooper
06-27-2014, 10:49 AM
Hey there Craig,

Since I used to give the ebook away there are many free copies floating about on the web, such as this one (http://www.murraymoerman.com/1christ/scripture/BibleWheel.pdf) that I found after a quick Google.

I agree that the pattern appears to require a "trans-temporal" explanation, but there is a problem with that. It's not nearly as good as it could be, so it is difficult to imagine that an infinitely intelligent God deliberately designed it. On the contrary, it seems similar to what we would expect if it evolved since it is "optimal" given the 66 books, but not nearly as impressive as it would be if the content of those 66 books were different. And there is a lot of evidence that the pattern evolved over time since we have records of different canon lists. I discuss this in my article An Evolutionary Explanation of the Bible Wheel (http://www.biblewheel.com/blog/index.php/2011/11/27/an-evolutionary-explanation-of-the-bible-wheel/). Here it is:

AN EVOLUTIONARY EXPLANATION OF THE BIBLE WHEEL

For most of the years since I discovered the Bible Wheel in 1995 I felt it was pretty much “self-evident” that God had designed it. The patterns seemed so obvious and profound. I could not imagine how they could have happened by chance, and it seemed impossible that some secret group of humans had done it since the Jews would have had to anticipate the later Christian NT when they put together the OT. So it seemed like an air-tight iron-clad case. I filled my website with the evidence. I wrote a 412 page book. I was dumbfounded that most folks, including Bible-believing Christians, could not see what I saw.

My conviction was strengthened by that fact that no one came close to presenting anything like a significant challenge to my claims despite endless hours on very hostile forums hosted by Christians, Jews, and Skeptics. I believed that the Bible Wheel was truly perfect in the sense explained in the Bible Wheel Challenge (http://www.biblewheel.com/Apologetics/BWChallenge.asp):

THE BIBLE WHEEL CHALLENGE asserts that the Christian canon is truly perfect in the twofold sense that 1) no rearrangement of its books would improve upon the patterns discovered on the Bible Wheel, and 2) any rearrangement would cause an obvious degradation of existing patterns. The challenge is for the opponent to suggest a rearrangement and present arguments for why such a change would produce patterns equal to or superior to those presently seen in the Bible Wheel. This challenge simultaneously proves the invincibility of the Bible Wheel even as it demonstrates the vacuity of the skeptics canard (http://www.biblewheel.com/Apologetics/Patterns.asp) that “patterns mean nothing because they can be found in anything.” It is an extremely powerful challenge because it can not be refuted without interacting with the data, and the data is the touchstone that proves the Bible Wheel.
Unfortunately, I never could find even one person out of the seven billion on this planet who would respond to this challenge. So like most things, if you want something done right, you need to do it yourself.

I think I’ve finally found a way to explain the Bible Wheel without any appeal to God, angels, or any other metaphysical woo-woo. I think the Bible Wheel evolved through a scribal selection process as the text was edited and rearranged by the countless scribes over the centuries before the printing press.

This idea came to me two days ago when Rose and I were on our three mile morning walk. She mentioned how the Bible Wheel was not as perfect as I thought it was. She explained that though it might be “optimal” given the 66 books, it was no where near as good as it could have been if I could have edited those books myself to make them fit the pattern even better. And that’s the key to the error in my Bible Wheel Challenge. Yes, the structure of the Christian Canon may be “optimal” given the 66 books, but it is nowhere near what we would expect if it were designed by an infinitely intelligent God who was free to write the books any way he wanted to.

And then I realized that this is exactly what we see in the evolution of species. They “look” designed because they are made of many parts that work together in amazing ways. People ask “how could that tiger just happen by chance?” Their error, of course, is that it didn’t happen by chance. It happened through a process of natural selection acting upon variations in the gene pool. And the lack of “perfection” becomes obvious when we look closely at the animals that were supposedly so well designed. We see thousand of “design flaws” everywhere we look. This is because evolution has no “foresight” and so might go one way and then another and so arrives at a good, but not optimal structure. This is exactly what I see in the Bible Wheel. There is enough evidence to show that it did not “happen by chance” but it’s not nearly good enough to prove that it was “intelligently designed.” So where’s the midpoint of these two excluded extremes? Evolution.

Michael Shermer accurately describes humans as “pattern-seeking story-telling animals” that are “quite adept at telling stories about patterns, whether they exist or not.” Now put these pattern-seekers in front of a “Holy Text” that they meditate upon day and night for fifteen hundred years (before the printing press) and watch how the document evolved over time. I’m not talking so much about the text itself, but rather the arrangement of the text – the order and content of the Canon – that resulted in the Bible Wheel. There were hundreds of variations for people to choose from. It took centuries for the final form to emerge under the action of the selective pressure of the scribes looking for, and imposing, patterns.

A brief look at the variations of the Christian canon during the first five centuries of the current era shows how many “genetic variations” were available for the scribes to select from. Here is a table given in James Moffatt’s Introduction to the Literature of the New Testament, (3rd ed. T&T Clark Ltd, 1981) where Moffatt he presented the variations in hte arrangements of groups of books. The abbreviations “Evv, Acts, Paul, Cath, Apoc.” stand for “Evanglia (Gospels), Acts, Pauline Epistles, Catholic Epistles (James, Peter, John, Jude) and Apocalypse (Revelation). Column B shows the pattern that was finally “selected” before the order was locked in place by the printing press. It is what we see in all modern Bibles.

Moffett’s Table of the various orders of early NT Manuscripts (source (http://books.google.com/books?id=uoMjoX54uzcC&pg=PA14&vq=historical+books+together&dq=james+moffatt+introduction+to+the+literature+of +the+new+testament&psp=1&sig=-XG3BHAt7j0dC1WepK9kyHpe56E))


A
B
C
D
E
F
G


Epiph.: Jerome: א: Codex Fuldensis, etc.
Council of Carthage: Amphil- ochius: Philastrius: Rufinus: Syriac Canon (om. Cath. and Apoc.), etc.
Chryso- stom.
Apost. Constit. ( ii.57).
Codex Alex- andrinus: Athanasius: Cyril: Leontius (6th cent.): Cassiodorus: Nicephorus (om. Apoc.), etc.
Council of Laodicea: Cyril of Jerusalem: John of Damascus, etc.
Augustine: Innocent 1.: Isidore of Spain (7th cent.), etc.


Evv
Paul
Acts
Cath
Apoc
Evv
Acts
Paul
Cath
Apoc
Paul
Evv
Acts
Cath
Acts
Paul
Evv
Evv
Acts
Cath
Paul
Apoc
Evv
Acts
Cath
Evv
Paul
Cath
Acts
Apoc



Now this table is represents only the most common arrangements. A much larger and more detailed list of 26 variations is found in The Canon Debate, edited by McDonald and Sanders, only one of which is identical in every way to the modern canon. An interesting curiosity, which may show the selection process in action, is the coupling of the book of Acts with Revelation either at the end of the canon or immediately after the Gospels. Was this a scribal intuition that these books “should” go together? If so, they would be pleased to see their intuition satisfied with the alignment of Acts and Revelation on Spoke 22. Likewise, the Song of Solomon was the final book on the canon list by Rufinus (404 C.E.), perhaps as an intuition of the love story being a consummation of the canon. If so, he too would be satisfied to see it’s alignment with Acts and Revelation on Spoke 22. It is a well-documented fact (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Tav_Song.asp) that many medieval Christian leaders wrote joint commentaries on the Song and the Apocalypse.

My hypothesis is also confirmed by this discussion of the arrangement of books found in A General Introduction to the Bible by Norman Geisler and William Nix. After discussing the various patterns of the canon in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and English Bibles, they said this:
Because the present structure of the English Bible has been subject to several historical variations, it would be too much to assume that it is God-given. The order as we have it is not, however, purely arbitrary. In fact, the order shows evidence of being purposefully directed, at least insofar as it falls into meaningful categories, because it presents the historical unfolding of the drama of redemptive revelation.
This fits my thesis. The pattern is obvious and too well designed to be chance, but there is too much evidence of “historical variations” (or shall we say deliberate manipulation?) to say that it is “God-given.”

So that is my thesis. I think it is possible that the order of the canon, and hence the pattern of the Bible Wheel, was slowly selected from a wide variety of hundreds of possibilities over a period of fifteen hundred years to fit the intuitions and desires of the pattern-finding and pattern-creating scribes. This hypothesis explains how we got the patterns that could not have happened by chance, and why those patterns are inferior to what we would expect if the Bible were deliberately designed by an infinitely intelligent and wise God.



The sub-optimal quality of the Bible Wheel does not negate the God Influence hypothesis, it only negates the God Direct hypothesis. If God DIRECTLY wrote the Bible, then yes it would surely need to be optimal, error free, and perfect in every way.

However if God only influenced the writing of the Bible, the Holy Spirit having to work through the filter of the individual's psyche, then we would expect a less than optimal Bible - coloured by cultural norms and attitudes.

The books do fall together into natural categories - 5 books of the Torah, 12 Historical books, 5 books of wisdom, 5 books of the major prophets, 12 books of the minor prophets
5 gospel books, 22 letters.

These books occur together because they are similar. The question is - why the numbers 5, 12, 5. Scribes would be unlikely to delete or add entire books just to create a pretty numerical pattern.

And Biblos = 314 = 22 / 7, the 22 spokes divided into 7 parts.

And then there is Isaiah.

Isaiah occurs at the midpoint of the Hebrew story - 770 years after the Exodus, and 770 years before the end of Israel. At this very midpoint, the book of Isaiah is written which embodies the entire Bible with 66 chapters.


Regardless of the explanation for the origin of the Bible Wheel, I would suggest that you still create a reader for your pdf and then distribute it through out the world - to all the churches. It is not something that should have been confined to the USA only.

A reader, is a software interface that allows people to access, but not download the info. It has the advantage of an index, and a full colour presentation, and so is superior to the version linked to above. You can easily password protect a reader, so each purchase comes with a user password and username.

Once the reader is built, I would also suggest that you create Youtube videos about the Bible wheel. I don't think Youtube even existed back in the 90s. It has since become a major driving force for sales.

Your discovery, at it's very least, is the discovery of a beautiful and intriguing pattern that should fascinate Christians world-wide - for hundreds of years to come...... and make you rich...... A pdf reader costs $0 to make and distribute, there are no printing costs - yet it can be distributed world-wide at the click of a button.

Snakeboy
06-28-2014, 09:57 AM
Interesting conjecture, Richard

On one hand, we have a book which many claim is supernaturally influenced, or " divine " in origin, and that each and every word is ordained, and thus the order of every book, chapter and verse would be part of this " divine " design, leading to apparent " structure " like your " Biblewheel " discovery.

On the other hand, we have a book that is a conglomeration of many myths and legends, drawn from many texts and text fragments, I don't think anybody with some comparative religion studies would debate that.

Obviously there are many different versions of the bible, and they don't all have the same exact words, books, chapters, verses, etc, in the same order.

For example, " wisdom " being mentioned 222 times, is not in all versions. In versions like the KJV, this " seems " to " mesh " quite well with the overall story, and indeed we do find that verses like Isaiah 22:22, etc, do seem to be part of an extended family of simple sets.

So, all of a sudden, we are faced with the glaring reality that these " divinely inspired " numerical " structures are not completely identical between versions.

Then we have to ask " If God meant for all this to prove something, then why is it not consistent in every version ? "

It does indeed make it seem that the " all-powerful , all-knowing God " has half-assed it. :eek:

If God meant for the gematria and all the other numerical " coincidences " to prove something, and math is indeed the tool we use to probe what is " true " Vs. " not true ", then why do we find inconsistency ?

Why do we not find the identical biblical numerical structures in books like the Quran or the Vedas ?

For that matter, why didn't God just use a simple cipher to make all the numbers from front to back spell out something like " I am god, I wrote this book through men and it's infallible " ?

Why wouldn't god just get over the woo and spit it out in clear and concise terms ?

Why the apparent need to " hide " hidden meanings with numbers, or rely on the work of translators and scribes to conceal things ?

It really seems to make no sense...

Given that there are indeed many numerical " oddities " and " coincidences ", which you say you think might just basically be the product of the human minds which have been responsible for compiling the book over the years ( due to the human mind's proclivity to seek and correlate patterns ) this would mean that the apparent numerical structure was somehow unconsciously reinforced by the writers.

Now, did all these scribes and writers study or have intimate knowledge of gematria ?

It's entirely likely that many did, the concept of gematria is quite old, and ciphers and such do not owe their existence to the Bible, obviously numbers pre-date the KJV, predate the Torah, predate oral traditions,

Were portions, or all, of the book written to maintain these " coincidences " ?

This is also a possible scenario, however ,this starts to rely on the prospect that they were well aware of the mathematical " links " that could be " hidden " in the texts themselves ( using gematria ), which would then be counter to the idea that the writers and scribes were subconsciously influenced by their own innate pattern-seeking.

Then we are facing the prospect that some of them may have been familiar with gematria, whereas some of them weren't, and we have to ask how the apparent numerical coincidences became what they were as a joint product:

~ Some scribes and writers used gematria to " hide " things, and were well aware of what they were doing

~ Some scribes and writers were subconsciously influenced, and were not aware of what they were doing

Now we are stepping into conspiracylandia, because in order for the scribes and writers of the Bible to have purposefully " engineered " these numerical " coincidences ", they would have had to be in agreement, which means that each and every writer/scribe would have to be aware of what was really going on.

If we look at the book:

We have a conglomerate of oral tradition and written tradition, written and compiled, by people who were both aware of what they were doing, and people who were not ( subconsciously biased towards patterns )

It seems a bit iffy to say that the final structure of the book is " accidental " when we take these things into consideration.

This is like saying two hands wrote a book, inspired by god himself, but the left hand did not know what the right hand was doing.

You'd think a text prepared in this manner would be completely willy-nilly and offer absolutely no numerical " coincidences " whatsoever, yet, there they are.

If all the " coincidences " are indeed purposefully placed there by people playing number games, then this would be perhaps the largest secret to have ever been kept.

...which defies logic, as we know secrets don't last long in human hands.

If it is indeed " divinely ordained " by god, then we have to ask why it's concealed.

I do not find this question unreasonable , as " concealing " ," covering up ", " hidden "..is a very common theme in the bible, it's not like we don't know the meaning of the word " Kaballah ".

One of the things I've noticed , where books like the Bible are concerned, is that their readers maintain that the books are " supernatural " in origin.

A book that is supernatural in origin, and contains " hidden " meanings and messages would not give up it's " hidden secrets " merely at a glance, or after one reading, yet you'll commonly see readers of such books claim to know the " absolute truth " about their books.

Knowing the " absolute truth " of the Bible would make one infallible, and according to the followers of the book itself, only god is infallible ( even though he changes his mind several times, lol )

Myself,.. I've been wrong about a great many things in my life, ...acknowledging this is what helps me probe the limits of my own ignorance.

What I didn't consider, is that sometimes I have been wrong about being wrong, ie, I was actually right in the beginning.

I've seen enough debunking of " biblecodes ", ELS, etc, ( love reading about debunking, actually ) and can see that the general case here is that numbers can do all sorts of strange things sometimes, patterns appear, or can be teased out of a block of text with enough wrangling.

Now if all the numerical " coincidences " between things in the Bible are just a statistical inevitability arising from using the base 10 counting system, and we are including here, the alphabetical cardinality of the Hebrew and Greek languages, the cardinality of the bible itself ( it's order ), ...

...and all of that hinges directly on the gematria values of the words themselves, then it should be easy to apply a set of different bases to the alphabets and produce a multitude of the exact same " coincidences "

If it's all a product of statistical inevitability, then it should be a product of statistical inevitability with another set of bases, no ?

Couldn't you easily debunk your own work by showing this to be true ?

Like, instead of the normal set of bases for the alphabet {1-9, 10-90, 100-900 } iirc did you ever see what happens when you try another set of bases, ie, did the " Biblewheel " show up again ?

Did you ever try ?

I've been very curious about this. :pop2:

For that matter, did you ever consider that the reason you got so much shit for your work was because it pretty much does invalidate the bulk of fundamentalist zealot doctrines ?

I think people felt threatened by your work, because it shows that where the Bible is concerned, all is not what it seems, and your work could actually be the basis for eventually effectively debunking the book's status of being " divinely inspired ".

:thumb:

-------------------

On another note, regardless of whatever religious implications all this may or may not have, I still have yet to hear an explanation for the bijections between Strong's cardinality, pi cardinality in base 10, gematria values, word frequencies, and the cardinality of the bible itself.

I know for certain that these numerical relationships exist, as I have made rather large hierarchical maps using the stand-alone numerical sets ( no hebrew, pictures of jesus, etc, but just maps similar to an " Issue tree ", using sets of sums, powers, factors, roots, squares, cubes, etc )

All of which are precisely centered on relationships between 666 and Pi

Pi wasn't even calculated over 100 digits until the work of the mathematician John Machin in the 1700's, so you know damn well that it's an incredible " coincidence "

That this pre-existing extended family of sets coincidentally happens to be the same family of sets derivable from the bible, reeks of the hand of men, does it not ?

Has this escaped your eyes, that you have possibly uncovered what could ultimately prove the mathematical " coincidences " of the book are completely contrived from pre-existing mathematical knowledge, of Pi in base 10 , which subsequently became " lost " or " forgotten " somehow ?

If I had a degree in mathematics, I could probably make myself famous in the world of math, just by this alone.

Who wouldn't want to be the person credited with those discoveries ?

Debunk the bible, or at the very least the Genesis account of creation and prove Pi was actually calculated quite accurately by some unknown means, 1000's of years ago, in one shot.

Granted, I know it's a slippery slope, because discussing mathematics with other mathematicians ( or even novices like myself ) is all fine and good until you bring the bible into the discussion, then it goes to shit, and they can longer focus on the original premise of the work.

I've seen this demonstrated quite clearly on math forums, as even atheist and agnostic mathematicians seem to lose 50 IQ points the minute " 666 " is mentioned.

No need to mention the bible or god, jesus, etc, at all, ...just say " 666 " and it all goes downhill from there, there is no rational discussion to be had, even with the supposed rational-minded.

:pop2:

Richard Amiel McGough
06-28-2014, 01:03 PM
Interesting conjecture, Richard

On one hand, we have a book which many claim is supernaturally influenced, or " divine " in origin, and that each and every word is ordained, and thus the order of every book, chapter and verse would be part of this " divine " design, leading to apparent " structure " like your " Biblewheel " discovery.

On the other hand, we have a book that is a conglomeration of many myths and legends, drawn from many texts and text fragments, I don't think anybody with some comparative religion studies would debate that.

Obviously there are many different versions of the bible, and they don't all have the same exact words, books, chapters, verses, etc, in the same order.

For example, " wisdom " being mentioned 222 times, is not in all versions. In versions like the KJV, this " seems " to " mesh " quite well with the overall story, and indeed we do find that verses like Isaiah 22:22, etc, do seem to be part of an extended family of simple sets.

So, all of a sudden, we are faced with the glaring reality that these " divinely inspired " numerical " structures are not completely identical between versions.

Then we have to ask " If God meant for all this to prove something, then why is it not consistent in every version ? "

It does indeed make it seem that the " all-powerful , all-knowing God " has half-assed it. :eek:

If God meant for the gematria and all the other numerical " coincidences " to prove something, and math is indeed the tool we use to probe what is " true " Vs. " not true ", then why do we find inconsistency ?

Hey there Snakeboy, :yo:

You bring up a lot interesting and important questions that anyone who believes there are "patterns" that prove the inspiration of the Bible need to answer. The lack of consistency is what finally convinced me that the Bible Wheel pattern is insufficient to prove that God designed it. I knew that I could have designed a much more impressive pattern. So the big question is "If God designed the Bible Wheel, why did he do such a piss poor job?" And of course, the other big question "What would such patterns prove anyway?"

Now don't get me wrong - there are many aspects of the Bible Wheel that are extremely impressive, such as the idea that the entire word is "encompassed" by the Aleph - Tav (corresponding to the Greek Alpha Omega), which is used as a title of Christ (the Word) in Revelation. It's hard to imagine that such a self-coherent pattern could arise "by chance." But then I look at the actual content of the Bible and find it impossible to believe that the true God would inspire such a chaotic mess of primitive superstitions and moral abominations (sexism, slavery, random murder of people for picking up sticks, etc.).

One of the strongest arguments against the validity of such patterns is that believers find them in whatever "holy text" they happen to believe in, which is exactly what we would expect if they were the product of such fallacies as confirmation bias, selection bias, cherry picking, and the like.



For that matter, why didn't God just use a simple cipher to make all the numbers from front to back spell out something like " I am god, I wrote this book through men and it's infallible " ?

Why wouldn't god just get over the woo and spit it out in clear and concise terms ?

Why the apparent need to " hide " hidden meanings with numbers, or rely on the work of translators and scribes to conceal things ?

It really seems to make no sense...

That's the real problem. There is no consistent "cipher" in any of the patterns in the Bible. For example, in one context, Gambini asserted that it would be "cheating" to prepend a zero to the number xy when reversing it to get yx0 while in another context he said it was "necessary" since otherwise the pattern would not appear. So what is the "standard" to discern design? There is none! You do one thing to create a "pattern" in one context, and you do the opposite in another context.

The fact that almost all believers who delve into numerology demonstrably delude themselves with false "proofs" (which they never would accept if presented by someone from a different religion) has convinced me that no intelligent God would choose to use such unreliable and deceptive methods to give his believers "proof" that he inspired the Bible. Such "proof" would be almost impossible to distinguish from typical numerological gibberish, and I can't imagine an intelligent God promoting such folly.

Why the apparent need to " hide " hidden meanings with numbers? For the same reason God "hides" himself from everyone - neither "he" nor the "patterns" are real. They are the product of cognitive biases and wishful, sloppy thinking. Theology based on the "hiddenness of God" is exactly what I would expect for a God Who Isn't There. And this is confirmed by the universally recognized fact that God is absolutely untrustworthy. There is not one person on the planet who can honestly assert that God can be trusted to actual do anything for anyone in this life. There really is no greater delusion that the idea that "God is trustworthy." Parents who trust God for the health of their children end up with dead children and manslaughter convictions. If God were half as trustworthy as the average dentist there would be no debate about his existence.



Given that there are indeed many numerical " oddities " and " coincidences ", which you say you think might just basically be the product of the human minds which have been responsible for compiling the book over the years ( due to the human mind's proclivity to seek and correlate patterns ) this would mean that the apparent numerical structure was somehow unconsciously reinforced by the writers.

Now, did all these scribes and writers study or have intimate knowledge of gematria ?

It's entirely likely that many did, the concept of gematria is quite old, and ciphers and such do not owe their existence to the Bible, obviously numbers pre-date the KJV, predate the Torah, predate oral traditions,

Its pretty likely that many scribes knew of gematria, and we have many examples where they used it in their extra-biblical writings. But there's not a lot of evidence that they consciously used it in the Bible, except of course in Rev 13:18 (666). It seems very unlikely that the Creation holograph was consciously designed since it is nothing like what we see in any of the ancient writings on gematria and it involves both Hebrew (Genesis 1:1-5) and Greek (John 1:1-5). It is perhaps the deepest unsolved mystery in the patterns that I studied. Neither of the most obvious explanations - "chance" or "design" - seem likely. But there is a third option - the Bible Wheel could have been produced by the collective unconscious of thousands of minds involved in the production of the Bible, like a "dream mandala" produced in the unconscious mind of individual humans. I wrote about this possibility in a post called The Bible Wheel as a Cosmic Mandala of Archetypal Wholeness (http://www.biblewheel.com/blog/index.php/2011/06/22/the-bible-wheel-as-a-cosmic-mandala-of-archetypal-wholeness/). But that's got a little too much of the woo-factor, so it's not really a satisfying solution.



Were portions, or all, of the book written to maintain these " coincidences " ?

Good question. That touches on the question of consistency. After about 15 years of study, I found only four "holographs" - the Creation Holograph, the Unity Holograph, the Logos Holograph, and the Holographic Decalogue (Ten Commandments). These involve some of the most prominent passages and concepts and there is a lot of consistency amongst them (similar patterns, primes, and numerical geometry), but they are very rare and such patterns are certainly not found consistently in Scripture. But why are they found at all? Why would an intelligent God try to impress our intelligence in the hidden features of Scripture even as he offends our intelligence in the plain text?



Now we are stepping into conspiracylandia, because in order for the scribes and writers of the Bible to have purposefully " engineered " these numerical " coincidences ", they would have had to be in agreement, which means that each and every writer/scribe would have to be aware of what was really going on.

I totally reject the "conspiracy" approach. It's no "mere coincidence" that numerology, astrology, date setting, and conspiracy theories are typically found in the same brain.

And as you mention below, the probability that humans could successfully manage a cross-millennial conspiracy stretches credulity beyond the breaking point. It's hard to imagine anything crazier than trying to explain some numerological coincidences with a conspiracy theory. :lol:



One of the things I've noticed , where books like the Bible are concerned, is that their readers maintain that the books are " supernatural " in origin.

A book that is supernatural in origin, and contains " hidden " meanings and messages would not give up it's " hidden secrets " merely at a glance, or after one reading, yet you'll commonly see readers of such books claim to know the " absolute truth " about their books.

Believers from every religion come to the same conclusion: Their own holy book contains secret wisdom that proves it was inspired. They can't all be right.



I've seen enough debunking of " biblecodes ", ELS, etc, ( love reading about debunking, actually ) and can see that the general case here is that numbers can do all sorts of strange things sometimes, patterns appear, or can be teased out of a block of text with enough wrangling.

Yep. That's the nature of the beast. The enthusiasts show almost no interest in sorting out the "coincidences" from the "design." On the contrary, they typically cherry pick whatever fits the patterns they like and they make up excuses why it's significant.



Now if all the numerical " coincidences " between things in the Bible are just a statistical inevitability arising from using the base 10 counting system, and we are including here, the alphabetical cardinality of the Hebrew and Greek languages, the cardinality of the bible itself ( it's order ), ...

...and all of that hinges directly on the gematria values of the words themselves, then it should be easy to apply a set of different bases to the alphabets and produce a multitude of the exact same " coincidences "

If it's all a product of statistical inevitability, then it should be a product of statistical inevitability with another set of bases, no ?

Couldn't you easily debunk your own work by showing this to be true ?

Like, instead of the normal set of bases for the alphabet {1-9, 10-90, 100-900 } iirc did you ever see what happens when you try another set of bases, ie, did the " Biblewheel " show up again ?

Did you ever try ?

I've been very curious about this. :pop2:

Excellent questions! Thanks! That's the kind of stuff I've been trying to figure out. When I was a believer, a lot of my critics would say that such patterns could be found in any text. But to prove that, I would have to put in the same kind of monumental effort as I did when discovering the Bible patterns, and that seems impossible as an unbeliever in those other religions. And the patterns are not consistent enough to yield to automated testing. E.g. the patterns that I picked out on the Bible Wheel were all based on themes and semantics that would require a very sophisticated program to analyse.



For that matter, did you ever consider that the reason you got so much shit for your work was because it pretty much does invalidate the bulk of fundamentalist zealot doctrines ?

I'm not sure I understand how it "invalidated" their doctrines. I always thought it confirmed the fundamentalist assertion that the Bible is God's Word. Of course, I never said that the Bible was infallible since I saw that as directly contradicted by the facts.



I think people felt threatened by your work, because it shows that where the Bible is concerned, all is not what it seems, and your work could actually be the basis for eventually effectively debunking the book's status of being " divinely inspired ".

:thumb:

-------------------

Well, I'm not sure that would be the most effective approach. Few people accept numerology as proof of the Bible, and few still would think you could use it to prove the opposite. The best approach to debunk the Bible seems to be to let it speak for itself. All you need to do is point out that it is filled with errors, contradictions, logical absurdities and moral abominations attributed to God.



On another note, regardless of whatever religious implications all this may or may not have, I still have yet to hear an explanation for the bijections between Strong's cardinality, pi cardinality in base 10, gematria values, word frequencies, and the cardinality of the bible itself.

I haven't seen anything in need of explanation. The connections are what I would expect from random chance in a large data source.



I know for certain that these numerical relationships exist, as I have made rather large hierarchical maps using the stand-alone numerical sets ( no hebrew, pictures of jesus, etc, but just maps similar to an " Issue tree ", using sets of sums, powers, factors, roots, squares, cubes, etc )

All of which are precisely centered on relationships between 666 and Pi

And what makes you think they are not mere coincidence that happen with the exact frequency we would expect for a random phenomenon?



Pi wasn't even calculated over 100 digits until the work of the mathematician John Machin in the 1700's, so you know damn well that it's an incredible " coincidence "

Which feature are you talking about being an "incredible coincidence"? I must have missed that post.



That this pre-existing extended family of sets coincidentally happens to be the same family of sets derivable from the bible, reeks of the hand of men, does it not ?

Has this escaped your eyes, that you have possibly uncovered what could ultimately prove the mathematical " coincidences " of the book are completely contrived from pre-existing mathematical knowledge, of Pi in base 10 , which subsequently became " lost " or " forgotten " somehow ?

If I had a degree in mathematics, I could probably make myself famous in the world of math, just by this alone.

Who wouldn't want to be the person credited with those discoveries ?

Please point me to the post where you explained this phenomenon and I'll let you know what I think.

Great chatting!

:sunny:

Craig.Paardekooper
06-29-2014, 02:53 AM
I drew a circle with an area of 31102 - the number of verses in the Bible.

It divides up into 7 segments each of area 66.66 x 66.66 - the number of books in the Bible being 66.

It divides up into 22 segments each of area 11.89 x 118.9 - the number of chapters in the Bible being 1189.

1185

It divides into 3 cycles, each approximating to 8888 + 1480, and forms a tri-radiant halo - the symbol for the Cross and the Trinity.

It divides into 12 parts, each part approximating to 12 x 216. (12 x 216 represents the Great Year. Every 2160 years the Sun moves through a new constellation of the Zodiac, until it makes a complete cycle through the Heavens. ) So the pattern embodies the Great Circle of the Heavens - the 12 stations of the Sun - suggestive of the 12 Tribes, 12 Apostles and the New Jerusalem.

Finally, 31102 divides into 2 sections each of 15551 verses, 15551 being a palindrome - reading the same forwards as backwards.


Note: As Richard has pointed out, 66 is a number associated with the Circle, and with the word galgal.

The division of the 66 books of the Bible into 7 sections each of 66.66 x 66.66 verses, therefore suggests that each of the 7 sections is itself a "wheel".

So it is interesting that Richard found inner wheels in -

Genesis - section 1

Chronicles - section 2

Psalms - section 3

Isaiah - section 4

Matthew - section 6

Romans - section 7

Richard Amiel McGough
06-29-2014, 08:16 AM
I drew a circle with an area of 31102 - the number of verses in the Bible.

It divides up into 7 segments each of area 66.66 x 66.66 - the number of books in the Bible being 66.

It divides up into 22 segments each of area 11.89 x 118.9 - the number of chapters in the Bible being 1189.

1185

Hey there Craig,

Yes, those numbers are curious. Here's the graphic I produced for the article you contributed to this site (http://www.biblewheel.com/Collaboration/Paardekooper2003_09_09.php) way back in 2003:


http://www.biblewheel.com/Collaboration/paardekooper_versecount.gif

My how time flies! That article has been on this site for nearly eleven years!

Craig.Paardekooper
07-08-2014, 02:27 AM
I remembered your page about the Tri-Radiant Halo, Richard

1187

Craig.Paardekooper
07-18-2014, 08:40 AM
Hi Richard,

Have you heard of the Cross Correspondences? These were a series of communications claiming to come from "the other side". The messages were delivered over a 30 year period, and sent to many independent individuals, but made very little sense on their own. However, when all the messages were brought together they formed a coherent message and an integrated pattern.

To me this sounds similar to your Bible Wheel - messages delivered to 40 bible writers - forming an integrated pattern when all the messages were brought together.

In both cases the message pertained to come from a spiritual dimension, in both cases human beings were the medium of transmission, and in both cases the message was deliberately designed not to be explicit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZbWIdkirck

The parallels with your Bible Wheel are quite strong. Perhaps the Cross Correspondences hold the key to understanding the Bible Wheel phenomenon.

Richard Amiel McGough
07-18-2014, 09:56 AM
Hi Richard,

Have you heard of the Cross Correspondences? These were a series of communications claiming to come from "the other side". The messages were delivered over a 30 year period, and sent to many independent individuals, but made very little sense on their own. However, when all the messages were brought together they formed a coherent message and an integrated pattern.

To me this sounds similar to your Bible Wheel - messages delivered to 40 bible writers - forming an integrated pattern when all the messages were brought together.

In both cases the message pertained to come from a spiritual dimension, in both cases human beings were the medium of transmission, and in both cases the message was deliberately designed not to be explicit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZbWIdkirck

The parallels with your Bible Wheel are quite strong. Perhaps the Cross Correspondences hold the key to understanding the Bible Wheel phenomenon.
Hey there Craig,

I had never heard of cross correspondences before. Thanks. Unfortunately, the video you shared didn't present any evidence. So I Googled around a bit and found an example of one the "messages" which was supposedly given. It turned out that three "psychics" who practice automatic writing wrote vague stuff revolving around the theme of death. Nothing too impressive at all. And apparently it was one of their better examples. So from what I can tell, it looks like the typical credulous claims of folks into "psychic powers" like palm reading, astrology, numerology, automatic writing ... etc. etc. etc. ... ad infinitum ad nauseum. Such folks are characterized by a profound cognitive bias which makes their claims highly suspect. If that's all the Bible Wheel had going for it, I never would have found it impressive.

On the other hand, perhaps you are onto something and the Bible Wheel really is the product of selection bias. The mere fact that there are 66 books that can be displayed on the wheel gives the impression of design regardless of the content. And then I went fishing with a net through all the books and selecting "links" while ignoring everything that didn't fit. The links -regardless of how seemingly "significant" - consist of only a tiny portion of the entire text. So it may well be that the whole "pattern" is just the product of cognitive biases. But maybe not ... I need to think about it more.

Richard

Craig.Paardekooper
07-22-2014, 01:29 AM
[1194

A typical code wheel looks like this.