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duxrow
08-14-2013, 01:05 AM
I'm told that Matzah is a hard, cracker-like unleavened flat bread – so formed because the dough is pierced before baking! So Jesus is the Living Bread who was pierced in our place so we could become the kind of bread that will "Rise, and meet Him in the clouds", after we're twinkled! 1Cor15:52, Ps22:16, Rev1:7

http://www.cswnet.com/~duxrow/3Bread.htm

duxrow
09-17-2014, 06:52 AM
Have you noticed this unique correlation?
"Whatsoever he says to you, do" -- that's what Pharaoh said to those who wanted bread, and that's what Jesus' mother said when they wanted wine.
Compare John2:5, with Gen41:55, (maybe a difference in versions other than KJV..)

Question is 'Do you Want it? The bread or wine or truth or meat? :bounce:

sylvius
09-17-2014, 07:00 AM
Have you noticed this unique correlation?
"Whatsoever he says to you, do" -- that's what Pharaoh said to those who wanted bread, and that's what Jesus' mother said when they wanted wine.
Compare John2:5, with Gen41:55, (maybe a difference in versions other than KJV..)



Very good!

LXX Genesis 41:55, ὃ ἐὰν εἴπῃ ὑμῖν ποιήσατε

Greek John 2:5, Ο τι ἂν λέγῃ ὑμῖν ποιήσατε

duxrow
09-17-2014, 07:27 AM
Why thanks, Sylvie, and I wonder if that applies to the link on the first page?
I'll show it again..

1280

sylvius
09-17-2014, 09:09 AM
Why thanks, Sylvie

It might prove that the winewonder is not historical but just scriptural.

duxrow
09-18-2014, 08:30 AM
Gal 4:19 "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you".. [He's the True Bread, so you need this Leaven in order to Rise and meet him in the air!]

:playball: also, Col 1:27 "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory" - This way we become 'pregnant' with the Good News; right?

dpenn
09-18-2014, 11:09 AM
dp:


Gal 4:19 "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you".. [He's the True Bread, so you need this Leaven in order to Rise and meet him in the air!]

:playball: also, Col 1:27 "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory" - This way we become 'pregnant' with the Good News; right?

dux, I can't always run with all of your wild horses, but you have brought up an interesting point. Many dispensationalists have equated leaven with sin, in all cases. And my observation is that it clearly is spoken of that way many times in the Scriptures (ex, the leaven of the Pharisees refers to their false teaching, or the sin of pride puffing one up). They even go so far as to say when Nebuchadnezzar had a vision of birds filling his tree, this represented sin. But the context is clearly saying that his kingdom would encompass most all of creation, referring to the extent of his kingdom. Just consider the following, and ask yourself if the birds are referring to sin:

Daniel 4:10-12,

"Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great. The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth: The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the fowls of the heaven dwelt in the boughs thereof, and all flesh was fed of it."

Also, consider a parable that Jesus spoke in Matthew 13:33,

"Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."

Here, this is speaking of a positive growth of the Kingdom of God, using leaven to portray this. Also, Pentecost commanded that leaven should be in the bread, unlike Passover and Unleavened Bread.

Clearly, context, context, context

dp

duxrow
09-18-2014, 12:23 PM
Am I a "dispensationist", dp ? Guess it began when I first saw the 3 types of bread as "3 measures" of Mt13:33. The phrasing is strange in that it doesn't really say "hidden leaven" or "NEW leaven", but when she's hiding it, that's my opinion.

The 'Nebby' Tree a preview of how Jesus is Tree of Life (in Eden), at least figuratively so as not to offend David, hah. Vine & branches fits the context, also Tree's of Righteousness in Isa61.
Can't see the birds as sin, maybe more like word confusion "a little bird told me".. hah.

dpenn
09-18-2014, 12:55 PM
dp:


Am I a "dispensationist", dp ?

dux, no I wasn't asking if you were a dispensationalist, I was using their understanding of leaven to make a point that one always has to look at the context, or else birds and leaven mean sin or the devil.

Oh, I forgot to include the birds in Neb's vision in Daniel 4, are thought to refer to demons by the dispensaationalists, like in Jesus' parable of the sower, and how they ate up the good see there. But obviously, both contexts are different, and both meanings are also therefore different.

But you do cause me, once again to think of an important point directed at gematria,

Maybe this is also a good lesson why it is dangerous to make phrases or words of equal numerical value, mean the same thing, or be at the bare minimum, highly related. Maybe individual context is being overlooked here too.

What think you?

dp

duxrow
09-18-2014, 01:18 PM
dux, no I wasn't asking if you were a dispensationalist, I was using their understanding of leaven to make a point that one always has to look at the context, or else birds and leaven mean sin or the devil.

Oh, I forgot to include the birds in Neb's vision in Daniel 4, are thought to refer to demons by the dispensaationalists, like in Jesus' parable of the sower, and how they ate up the good see there. But obviously, both contexts are different, and both meanings are also therefore different.

But you do cause me, once again to think of an important point directed at gematria,

Maybe this is also a good lesson why it is dangerous to make phrases or words of equal numerical value, mean the same thing, or be at the bare minimum, highly related. Maybe individual context is being overlooked here too.

What think you? dpOff the cuff, dp, I think totality (what is said everywhere..), at least as important as context and I don't regularly try to match arithmetics.

So what's your definition of a 'dispensationist'? Sounds like Pre-Law / LAW / FAITH to me, so guess I qualify.. :thumb:

dpenn
09-18-2014, 02:20 PM
dp:


Off the cuff, dp, I think totality (what is said everywhere..), at least as important as context and I don't regularly try to match arithmetics.

So what's your definition of a 'dispensationist'? Sounds like Pre-Law / LAW / FAITH to me, so guess I qualify.. :thumb:

That wasn't meant to be a put-down dux. You merely activated my mind about my understanding of leaven, and it just so happens that the camp of believers that I think are wrong on these two words: leaven, and birds, are the Dispensationalists.

As for a definition, Charles Ryrie, the leading dispensational theologian of our time, defines it this way:




Premillenialists [sc., dispensationalists] believe that theirs is the historic faith of the Church. Holding to a literal interpretation of the Scripture, they believe that the promises made to Abraham and David are unconditional and have had or will have a literal fulfillment. In no sense have these promises made to Israel been abrogated [done away with] or fulilled by the Church, which is a distinct body in this age having promises and a destiny different from Israel's. At the close of this age, premillenialists believe that Christ wil return for His Church, meeting her in the air (this is not the Second Coming of Christ), which event, called the rapture or translation, will usher in a seven year period of tribulation on the earth. After this, the Lord will return to the earth (this is the Second Coming of Christ) to establish His Kingdom on the earth for a thousand years, during which time the promises to Israel will be fulfilled.



Kenneth Gentry, a partial preterist theologian, adds these distinctive features to this definition:




1. The Davidic Kingdom, an earthly, political kingdom, was offered by Christ in the first century. It was rejected by the Jews and thereby postponed until the future.

2. The Church Age is a wholly unforeseen and distinct era in the plan of God. It was altogether unknown to and unexpected by the Old Testament prophets. It is called a "parenthesis".

3. God has a separate and distinct program and plan for racial Israel, as distiguished from the Church. The Church of Jesus Christ is a paranthetical aside in the original plan of God,

4. The Church may experience occasional small scale successes in history, but ultimately she will lose influence, fail in her mission, and become corrupted as worldwide evil intensifies toward the end of the Church Age.

5. Christ will return secretly in the sky to rapture living saints and resurrect the bodies of deceased saints (the first resurrection). These will be removed out of the world before the Great Tribulation. The judgement of the saints will be accomplished in heaven during the seven-year Great Tribulation period before Christ's bodily return to the earth.

6. At the conclusion of the seven-year Great Tribulation, Christ will return to the earth in order to establish and personally administer a Jewish political kingdom headquartered at Jerusalem for 1000 years. During this time, Satan will be bound, and the temple and sacrificial system will be re-established in Jerusalem as memorials.

7. Toward the end of the Millennial Kingdom, Satan will be loosed and Christ surrounded and attacked at Jerusalem.

8. Christ will call down fire from heaven to destroy His enemies. The resurrection (the second resurrection) and judgement of the wicked will occur, initiating the eternal order.



There are many premillenial Christians who classify themselves as Historic Premillennialists. They differ quite significantly from the Dispensational school, in that they address Israel and the Church in a more unified manner, but similar in their millennial understanding of the return of Christ and His 1,000 year reign on earth.
The other main Christian schools include the Amillennialists, and the Postmillennialists.

If you are at all interested, at least from a definitional point of view, then I can define them too.

dp

duxrow
09-18-2014, 03:37 PM
Well thanks, dpenn, and no offense taken! Doubt if I fit any of those categories, though wife and I graduated from Rhema College in Okla. For sure don't insist on 100% literal...hah!

Have you looked at my website? http://cswnet.com/~duxrow/ (a labor of love, and not your usual).. Most of my posts here on BWF have been taken from there, and still finding things to add. :typing:

I started my website in 2000 (same year as Richard began this forum, seems to me), so now it's been about 14 years and that may well be a significant year -- we'll soon see. All the best, /s/ dux

dpenn
09-18-2014, 03:43 PM
dp:



Have you looked at my website? http://cswnet.com/~duxrow/ (a labor of love, and not your usual).. Most of my posts here on BWF have been taken from there, and still finding things to add. :typing:

I started my website in 2000 (same year as Richard began this forum, seems to me), so now it's been about 14 years and that may well be a significant year -- we'll soon see. All the best, /s/ dux

dux, yes I browsed through your site back when we first had our discussion about the Matthew and Luke genealogies.

dp