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Rose
12-27-2007, 10:17 PM
This is a brief summary of Hebrews chapters 7 thru 9: looking at the First (Old) Covenant (Testament), and the Second (New) Covenant (Testament).




Heb 7:11 If there had been perfection by the Levitical priesthood, there would have been no need that another priesthood should rise after the order of Melchizedek, instead of Aaron.

Heb. 7: 12 If the priesthood changes, the law must also change.

Heb. 7:17 Christ testified that He is a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek

Heb 7:19 The Law could make nothing perfect.

Heb. 7:22 Now, because of Jesus we are assured of a better Covenant.

Heb. 7:24 Jesus continues forever, His priesthood is unchangeable.

Heb 7:27 No more is the daily sacrifice needed to be offered up by the priest, because
Jesus offered Himself up onceā€¦. as the perfect sacrifice.

Heb 8:7 If the First Covenant had been faultless there would be no need for a Second Covenant.

Heb 8:9 A New Covenant will be made, with the house of Israel, and the house of Judah. Not according to the First Covenant that was made with their fathers.

Heb 8:10 This New Covenant God will write in their hearts, and put in their minds.

Heb 8:13 The New Covenant will make the First Covenant obsolete, and ready to vanish away.

Heb 9:15-16 Jesus is the mediator of the New Testament. By His death He redeemed the transgressions that happened under the First Testament. The Testator (Jesus), must die in order for the New Testament to take effect.

Heb. 9:18 The First Testament was dedicated with blood, so also the New Testament had to be dedicated by blood (that of Jesus).

Heb. 12:24 Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant.Did the New replace the Old? :pop2:
Rose

Trumpet
12-29-2007, 10:47 AM
No, it didn't replace the old, because the old is still in effect for those that haven't changed covenants. The Old Covenant exposes sin, and gives the Judge the requirement that must be supplied, but in the New covenant, mercy can be applied, because we have changed masters through the blood of Jesus, and grace can be applied to us from our new master.

Jesus said in Matt. 5:17, : "Think not that I have come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

Jesus becomes our master, and he can do what the law cannot...-give forgiveness.

God bless Don

Richard Amiel McGough
12-29-2007, 12:13 PM
No, it didn't replace the old, because the old is still in effect for those that haven't changed covenants. The Old Covenant exposes sin, and gives the Judge the requirement that must be supplied, but in the New covenant, mercy can be applied, because we have changed masters through the blood of Jesus, and grace can be applied to us from our new master.

Hi Don,

I agree that the Law continues in its power to expose sin, but I must disagree that it was not "replaced" because God does not have one "covenant" with the Jews and another covenant with the "Christians." When God made the New Covenant, He made it with the Jews, specifically the two houses of Judah and Israel. This was when He joined the "two sticks" of Ezek 37. And what happened to the Old Covenant of bloody sacrifices and Temple worship? God destroyed that whole system. It spiritually ended at the Cross in 30 AD and physically ended in 70 AD. The author of Hebrews predicted its soon destruction when he said that the Old Covenant "decayeth and waxeth old" and was "ready to vanish away" (Heb 8:13)


Jesus said in Matt. 5:17, : "Think not that I have come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

Jesus becomes our master, and he can do what the law cannot...-give forgiveness.

God bless Don
I appreciate the distinction between the Law (no mercy) and Gospel (Mercy) but I think there still is a very significant misunderstanding of the relation between Law and Gospel. As I see it, Christians should not try to obey the Ten Commandments! Can you believe that? Doesn't it sound radical and antinomian? What could I possibly mean?

Its simple. The Christian is called to a much higher standard than the Ten Commandments. It is a different law altogether. The Christian is called to obey the Law of Love through Faith. This fulfills the Ten Commandments by default, but the Ten Commandments are NOT the "guide" to our behaviour. A person obeying the Law of Love does not refrain from murder "in obedience" to the Sixth Commandment, but rather he never thinks to murder his neighbor because he loves him (or her)! Do you see the difference? And how are we able to obey the Law of Love? Through faith, and the working of God's Spirit. The Old Law was merely the form or shape of the good things that were to come in Christ. It was like "training wheels" that kept us from falling all the time until Christ came. Christians are not under bondage to anything like the Old Law. We are bondservants of Christ, and we obey through the Spirit.

A Christian trying to obey the Ten Commandments would be like Lance Armstrong entering the Tour de France with training wheels on his racing bike. It wouldn't be merely absurd, it would be pathetic. Here's a little pic I put together to help illustrate my understanding:

http://www.biblewheel.com/images/lance.gif

Richard

Trumpet
12-29-2007, 12:48 PM
Hi Richard,

I stand corrected. My use of words can sometimes be wrong. What I was getting at was that the Law is still there. The Old Covenant system HAS passed, except for the shadow of it, and those that still try to obey it. The right that God has to judge someone not covered by Jesus' atonement will always be in effect. This is how he will judge unbelievers at the White Throne.

I wrote a post in Ephraim and Mannasseh; #9, that explains how I understand it. We can't live up to the 10 Commandments, and you're right, it is futile to try to do so. We need to follow Jesus, and the witness of the Holy Spirit within us, and then we have no occasion for sin, because He never leads us into sin. I believe that it is the same way you see it.

God Bless Don

Rose
12-29-2007, 01:07 PM
Hi Don :yo: Thanks for the input.


No, it didn't replace the old, because the old is still in effect for those that haven't changed covenants. The Old Covenant exposes sin, and gives the Judge the requirement that must be supplied, but in the New covenant, mercy can be applied, because we have changed masters through the blood of Jesus, and grace can be applied to us from our new master.

Jesus said in Matt. 5:17, : "Think not that I have come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

Jesus becomes our master, and he can do what the law cannot...-give forgiveness.

God bless Don

What I understand Matt 5:17 to be saying, is that Jesus did fulfill the law! As we read in Heb. 7:27 where it says that what the daily sacrifice couldn't do....Christ as the perfect sacrifice did! He fulfilled the requirement of the Law, and then by His death...the death of the Testator, brought in the New Covenant.
Heb. 9:15-16 says, that only by the death of the Testator can the New Testament take effect.

Rose

Richard Amiel McGough
12-29-2007, 01:08 PM
Hi Richard,

I stand corrected. My use of words can sometimes be wrong. What I was getting at was that the Law is still there. The Old Covenant system HAS passed, except for the shadow of it, and those that still try to obey it. The right that God has to judge someone not covered by Jesus' atonement will always be in effect. This is how he will judge unbelievers at the White Throne.

Hey bro,

You and I have a lot in common - my use of words can be wrong sometimes too. And I agree that the Law is "still there" as a witness, and it still condemns all who are not covered by the blood of Christ. But the "covenant" that God made with the Jews was fulfilled in Christ, and ended with His death and resurrection.

As for how Christ will judge at the White Throne - we don't really know because the Bible doesn't say, but I would guess that it would not be according to the "Law" per se but rather according to the Law of Love through Faith which is a much higher standard. To use Christ's illustration, a man may never have actaully committed adultery, but did lust. He will be judge according to his heart, not his outward actions only. I think this is what Paul meant by the "doers of the law" in Romans 2:

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
To be consistent with the rest of his epistle - that we are justified by faith an not works - it seems clear that we must understand the "doers of the law" as meaning the doers of the True Law through Faith (which was only shadowed in the Torah).


I wrote a post in Ephraim and Mannasseh; #9, that explains how I understand it. We can't live up to the 10 Commandments, and you're right, it is futile to try to do so. We need to follow Jesus, and the witness of the Holy Spirit within us, and then we have no occasion for sin, because He never leads us into sin. I believe that it is the same way you see it.

God Bless Don
I agree that we can't "live up to the 10 Commandments" - Peter said as much in Acts 15:10:

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
But that way of looking at the Law still misses the primary point that explains the relation between the Christian and the Law. You see, the preachers of "Christian Torah Keeping" would agree that we can't keep the Torah in our own power, but they insist that by the power of the Spirit we can keep Torah, and we should try! But that goes right back to the Training Wheels Error. The Torah was never intended as a "guide to Christian living." That would be the worst sort of "replacement theology" imagninable - it replaces CHRIST with the TORAH of carnal rules and and regulations! Indeed, that idea is very popular these days amongst some Messianics such as Rabbi Silver who teaches that Christ is the "living Torah" and that we should "keep Torah" in the carnal sense of Sabbaths, dietary laws, sacrifices, and and all that. He is wrong.

Richard

Trumpet
12-30-2007, 09:46 PM
Hi Richard,

Quote:

But that way of looking at the Law still misses the primary point that explains the relation between the Christian and the Law. You see, the preachers of "Christian Torah Keeping" would agree that we can't keep the Torah in our own power, but they insist that by the power of the Spirit we can keep Torah, and we should try! But that goes right back to the Training Wheels Error. The Torah was never intended as a "guide to Christian living." That would be the worst sort of "replacement theology" imagninable - it replaces CHRIST with the TORAH of carnal rules and and regulations! Indeed, that idea is very popular these days amongst some Messianics such as Rabbi Silver who teaches that Christ is the "living Torah" and that we should "keep Torah" in the carnal sense of Sabbaths, dietary laws, sacrifices, and and all that. He is wrong.

Yes, I agree! When I say that by following the Spirit we'll not violate any laws, it is because the Spirit won't lead us into sin. And I don't have to think about "Torah Keeping" or any other rules or regulations. It's like driving a car through a constuction zone. You keep your eyes on the road,(the Spirit), and you don't hit the cones along the sides of your car. Try watching the cones, (The Law), and see how hard it is to stay on the road!

These "Christian Torah Keepers" are the ones riding in the car that keep worrying and saying, "LOOK OUT FOR THE CONES!! LOOK HOW CLOSE YOU ARE!! WATCH THE CONES!! YOU'RE GOING TO HIT THEM!!! My answer to that is: Sit back, relax, enjoy the ride. I know what I'm doing; God will get us through!!!

God Bless! Don

basilfo
12-31-2007, 06:06 AM
No, it didn't replace the old, because the old is still in effect for those that haven't changed covenants.

Don,
I can't find a single verse to support or even suggest that both covenants are to run parallel for thousands of years. I find the opposite all over Scripture - especially in Heb 8:13 which tells us the OC was OBSOLETE and ready to vanish away. The writer didn't say "obsolete if you don't want to change covenants".

BTW, how does one exactly 'change covenants'? I didn't realize we can inform God as to which covenant we get to be under - this one for Jews who, for the moment, reject Christ - and that one (NC) for believers. :confused2:

When Jesus explained the NC at the table, did He leave any room for the OC? Did the apostles teach that Christ rejecting Jews were still obligated to be under the OC?


Heb 8:13 says the OC was 'ready to vanish away'. That was roughly 2000 yrs ago. Is it still 'ready to vanish away'? The author, writing TO THE HEBREWS, also said the OC IS OBSOLETE. Heb 8:13 and the concept of the existance of the OC today cannot both be true. Without a lot of extra verbiage, what exactly does that verse mean to you, Don, and when will the OC finally 'vanish away'?

I also can't find any Scripture that supports the idea of dual rules to live by after Christ is based on who your momma was.

Peace to you,
Dave

Richard Amiel McGough
12-31-2007, 10:42 AM
Yes, I agree! When I say that by following the Spirit we'll not violate any laws, it is because the Spirit won't lead us into sin. And I don't have to think about "Torah Keeping" or any other rules or regulations. It's like driving a car through a constuction zone. You keep your eyes on the road,(the Spirit), and you don't hit the cones along the sides of your car. Try watching the cones, (The Law), and see how hard it is to stay on the road!

These "Christian Torah Keepers" are the ones riding in the car that keep worrying and saying, "LOOK OUT FOR THE CONES!! LOOK HOW CLOSE YOU ARE!! WATCH THE CONES!! YOU'RE GOING TO HIT THEM!!! My answer to that is: Sit back, relax, enjoy the ride. I know what I'm doing; God will get us through!!!

God Bless! Don
Hey Don,

Excellent metaphor! It has the added benefit of showing how attempting to "keep the Law" (watch for cones) can actually hinder the Christian from following the Spirit. The same extension works in with the "training wheels" metaphor because the training wheels stop you from leaning into the curves (since leaning is always the first step in falling, it must be avoided as if it were the same thing!) and so the training wheels will actually cause a the racer to fall if he goes too fast, since you must lean into curves at higher speeds.

This is why the law is so rigid. The Jews had a habit of building "fences" around the law so that a person could not "accidentally" break it. Thus the command that we must not take the Lord's Name in vain became a new man-made command that we must not even state His name, so now they don't even know for sure what it sounded like! But now we see that by their man-made rules the cause everyone to violate the explicit command of the Tanach to proclaim the name of the Lord! Thus they violate the Law in their zeal to uphold it. It seems quite ironic to me.

Richard

Trumpet
12-31-2007, 01:20 PM
Don,
I can't find a single verse to support or even suggest that both covenants are to run parallel for thousands of years. I find the opposite all over Scripture - especially in Heb 8:13 which tells us the OC was OBSOLETE and ready to vanish away. The writer didn't say "obsolete if you don't want to change covenants".

BTW, how does one exactly 'change covenants'? I didn't realize we can inform God as to which covenant we get to be under - this one for Jews who, for the moment, reject Christ - and that one (NC) for believers. :confused2:

When Jesus explained the NC at the table, did He leave any room for the OC? Did the apostles teach that Christ rejecting Jews were still obligated to be under the OC?


Heb 8:13 says the OC was 'ready to vanish away'. That was roughly 2000 yrs ago. Is it still 'ready to vanish away'? The author, writing TO THE HEBREWS, also said the OC IS OBSOLETE. Heb 8:13 and the concept of the existance of the OC today cannot both be true. Without a lot of extra verbiage, what exactly does that verse mean to you, Don, and when will the OC finally 'vanish away'?

I also can't find any Scripture that supports the idea of dual rules to live by after Christ is based on who your momma was.

Peace to you,
Dave

Hi Dave,

I thought that I had corrected my poor choice of words in another post since that first one. It was post #4.

Without the New Covenant, there is NO justification. I see that's the way you see it too. What I was trying to say was that without the New, the Law will judge you. The Old Covenant was a method of salvation in that it looked forward to the blood of Jesus. It no longer works. No Jew can now be saved through that Old Covenant; it no longer has any effectual working power. All power of salvation now rests in the work of Jesus and His blood, the very thing that the Old Covenant was pointing to. The Old Covenant was just a method of showing a forward look toward the work of Jesus to avoid the consequences of judgment by the Law. The Law still exists. Without Jesus, you still will be judged by it.

I never meant to suggest that ANYTHING runs parallel! My poor choice of words! As a matter of fact, (dare I say this?), I don't believe that the Jews of today have even a blood line/physical relationship back to the time of Jesus. Their religious system is totally worthless! God symbolically showed the world that He ended their system 1,937 years ago. He had their Temple destroyed, and routed their people. Few people realize how deep and important this is. This is the "Controversy of Zion". I believe that the present country of Israel and their troubles is NOT the old symbol and manifestation of Isaac vs Ishmael, but the truth is, that Modern Israel is a representation of Jacob vs. Esau, and Modern Israel doesn't have a biblical leg to stand on, because they really are Esau, not Jacob. And essentially, God has no more respect for Modern Israel than he has for any other country. They hold no special cover, or blessing at all. I respect them as a people, and I have no hate toward them whatsoever, but it's time the truth be told. The spirit of the Jewish people have been holding chains over the thoughts of Christianity for 2000 years, that they have a special place in the plan of God. They have a PLACE, but I wouldn't call it SPECIAL. Everyone has a place in the plan of God, and they're no different. They can receive God's Grace through Jesus, and Him ALONE. If they want God, they have to do it like everyone else, Go through Jesus. No amount of persuasion, or talk of lineage, or trickery, or binding of people to the thought of owing them something will change the truth. They are essentially no more than heathen without a belief in Jesus. As a matter of fact, they need to be VERY cautious in their dealings with the Arabs, and Iranians, because they could very well wind up in the middle of a neuclear holocaust, and they have no special provision from God to protect them. The plan of God can proceed with, or without them.

I think you can see now Dave, exactly where I stand.

God Bless you! Don

Trumpet
01-01-2008, 09:38 PM
Hi all,

As I was studying today, I came across a few scriptures that put more bearing on this issue. I'd like to state what most probably already know, that the Old Covenant is not exactly the same thing as the Law. The OC was a system that has passed away and has been replaced by the New Covenant. But the law is still in effect, and always will be. I saw in Psalm 19:7, it says, "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.... In Romans 3:31 it says, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid:, yea, we establish the law." Then in Matt. 5:19, Jesus Himself says, "Whoever shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

So the law still definitely applies to us, it's just that we can't keep it in our own power. And that's where I stated this:
__________________________________________________ _____________
Quote:
"When I say that by following the Spirit we'll not violate any laws, it is because the Spirit won't lead us into sin. And I don't have to think about "Torah Keeping" or any other rules or regulations. It's like driving a car through a constuction zone. You keep your eyes on the road,(the Spirit), and you don't hit the cones along the sides of your car. Try watching the cones, (The Law), and see how hard it is to stay on the road!"
__________________________________________________ ___________
But let it be known, that hitting the cones, (i.e. breaking the law) is still an offense, and are things we continuously need to be aware of and repent of when we realize that we have violated them. Of course, as a sideline to this, we also need to realize that we need to know the spirit of the law in some cases. For instance, the issue of the Sabbath. We need to realize that in Jesus is the Sabbath, for He is Lord of the Sabbath, and Sabbath means resting in Him, not a resting on a certain day.

I do believe that habitual offenders of the law will be punished by God as He sees fit. And I believe that correction by the law is good.

God bless Don

Brother Les
01-06-2008, 05:48 PM
Trumpet posted
Hi Dave,

I thought that I had corrected my poor choice of words in another post since that first one. It was post #4.

Without the New Covenant, there is NO justification. I see that's the way you see it too. What I was trying to say was that without the New, the Law will judge you. The Old Covenant was a method of salvation in that it looked forward to the blood of Jesus. It no longer works. No Jew can now be saved through that Old Covenant; it no longer has any effectual working power. All power of salvation now rests in the work of Jesus and His blood,
The Sinai Covenant did Judge....'all received death'....none had a 'method of Salvation' when the Law was in effect.


Trumpet Hi all,

As I was studying today, I came across a few scriptures that put more bearing on this issue. I'd like to state what most probably already know, that the Old Covenant is not exactly the same thing as the Law. The OC was a system that has passed away and has been replaced by the New Covenant. But the law is still in effect, and always will be. I saw in Psalm 19:7, it says, "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.... In Romans 3:31 it says, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid:, yea, we establish the law." Then in Matt. 5:19, Jesus Himself says, "Whoever shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

So the law still definitely applies to us, it's just that we can't keep it in our own power. And that's where I stated this:



You may not realize it, but you are taking these verses out of the context that they were written in.


Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.

Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.


Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence [is] fulness of joy; at thy right hand [there are] pleasures for evermore.


Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:


Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:


Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


Act 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.


Act 2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.


Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;


Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


King David knew the 'The Old Covenant Law' would roll his sins forward year after year....But it was not possable to have any type of Salvation, Resurrection, 'HOPE'...under 'the Law'....It was only with Jesus Christ 'Dying to The Law (30AD) and Judging 'the Law' (70 AD) that released King David from Sheol, under The New Covenant.

Rom 3:29 [Is he] the God of the Jews only? [is he] not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Rom 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through [I]faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


The Apostle Paul is preaching to the 'Roman' Church. We know that this Church is a 'mixed' Church. There are Gentiles (uncircumcised) and Jews (circumcision) Paul is teaching After 'The Cross', (the sacrifices have been made 'obsolete') But he is still teaching during the waining days of The Mosaic Age. The Jerusalem Church 'Sect' and the New Covenant Age began at Pentecost. (The 'Church', Assembly, rement, people of God, were always there from the first covenant to Abram.) The Temple Worship Cultus is fading and waxing old. But.....Jews, Being Born of The Law (Mosaic), must keep every Jot and tittle of that law (or absolutly none of it), until Heaven (the temple) and Earth (the people of The Land ie. Jerusalem and Judeah) fade away...The Gentiles were never 'under' The Law and Paul fought tooth and nail 'the Judeizer' (Christian Jews), from making Gentiles follow The Law of Moses "that our Fathers could not even bare"....Because Paul knew that that 'milestone' was 'about to vanish away'.

Mat 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Jesus was 'born under The Law'....and He would die, 'under' and because of The Law....But we can see from these verses that He is talking to 'Jewish Believers'. These Jewish Believer would become the foundation and pillars of the Jerusalem Church. James said to Paul in the book of Acts, "we follow The Law'....Plus....Jesus Christ as the Messiah. But they all knew that "Heaven and Earth" would 'pass' at The End of The Age'....The Mosaic Age...when 'all things concerning Him were fulfilled'. The 'HOPE of Israel was,Judgement, Reconcileation, Resurrection 'From' The Dead....

If 'The Judgment' has not happened, then all are still in Sheol and None (not Enoch or Elisha) have gone to Heaven.


Brother Les

Trumpet
01-07-2008, 11:48 AM
Hi Les,

You must be coming out of Preterism??
You said:

King David knew the 'The Old Covenant Law' would roll his sins forward year after year....But it was not possable to have any type of Salvation, Resurrection, 'HOPE'...under 'the Law'....It was only with Jesus Christ 'Dying to The Law (30AD) and Judging 'the Law' (70 AD) that released King David from Sheol, under The New Covenant.


I don't know where you got the statement about "rolling his sins forward year after year." I don't recall that being in my bible. But I do know that the Old Testament people had no hope of ever reaching salvation through the law. One of the things that the law did, was to show people that they couldn't uphold the law, and they needed a sacrifice to cover their sins. If they thought they could follow the law, they wouldn't have needed sacrifice. And "HOPE" is exactly what David had. He had promises from God, and he had hope and faith that God would accomplish them. The same with Abraham; he had faith that God would accomplish the promises, and it was counted to him "AS" righteousness. All the Old Testament people that were in the line of faith were justified in this way.


Les:
The Apostle Paul is preaching to the 'Roman' Church. We know that this Church is a 'mixed' Church. There are Gentiles (uncircumcised) and Jews (circumcision) Paul is teaching After 'The Cross', (the sacrifices have been made 'obsolete') But he is still teaching during the waining days of The Mosaic Age. The Jerusalem Church 'Sect' and the New Covenant Age began at Pentecost. (The 'Church', Assembly, rement, people of God, were always there from the first covenant to Abram.) The Temple Worship Cultus is fading and waxing old. But.....Jews, Being Born of The Law (Mosaic), must keep every Jot and tittle of that law (or absolutly none of it), until Heaven (the temple) and Earth (the people of The Land ie. Jerusalem and Judeah) fade away...The Gentiles were never 'under' The Law and Paul fought tooth and nail 'the Judeizer' (Christian Jews), from making Gentiles follow The Law of Moses "that our Fathers could not even bare"....Because Paul knew that that 'milestone' was 'about to vanish away'.


Where did you get this???---> "The Temple Worship Cultus is fading and waxing old. But.....Jews, Being Born of The Law (Mosaic), must keep every Jot and tittle of that law (or absolutly none of it), until Heaven (the temple) and Earth (the people of The Land ie. Jerusalem and Judeah) fade away...

The Jews never could, nor can they now, uphold the law! And Heaven and Earth are spoken of as a shadow portrail of the old Jewish system, but it's a shadow. The time between the Cross and the destruction of the Temple in AD70 has NO significance to salvation!! The Temple system was WORTHLESS from the time that Jesus sacrificed Himself. PERIOD! Paul was just trying to gather in those Jews that would go on with Jesus...Those that had ears to hear, and eyes to see. God gave the Jews 40 years to see and hear before He destroyed their worthless system. At the end of the 40 years, God visited Jerusalem to receive what was required of them. He was looking for the fruits of their system, but there were none; there could be none. He had the Romans destroy the place as a picture of what that place is worth....Nothing!
If a Jew since then to now wants to follow God, he HAS to do it through faith in Jesus. Any Jew who believes in the religion of Judaism will show up at the White Throne Judgment without his name being in the book of life. There's no other way. And yes, if sheol is where they were (Enoch and Elijah), sheol is where they still are; but of course this is not taking into consideration special circumstances that may be present in those two circumstances. ALL the OT Saints, and ALL the NT Saints are still awaiting the Resurrection. It hasn't happened yet. If you have some concrete verifyable evidence to the contrary, please post it. This is an event that God would not allow to go unnoticed. Paul said that they will not be made perfect without us. Heb. 11:40

God Bless Don

Brother Les
01-08-2008, 08:18 AM
Don posted.
And "HOPE" is exactly what David had. He had promises from God, and he had hope and faith that God would accomplish them. The same with Abraham; he had faith that God would accomplish the promises, and it was counted to him "AS" righteousness. All the Old Testament people that were in the line of faith were justified in this way.


Yes, David had 'Hope'...not in The Old Covenant ....but the New...

Pro 13:12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but [when] the desire cometh, [it is] a tree of life.



Quote:
Les:
The Apostle Paul is preaching to the 'Roman' Church. We know that this Church is a 'mixed' Church. There are Gentiles (uncircumcised) and Jews (circumcision) Paul is teaching After 'The Cross', (the sacrifices have been made 'obsolete') But he is still teaching during the waining days of The Mosaic Age. The Jerusalem Church 'Sect' and the New Covenant Age began at Pentecost. (The 'Church', Assembly, rement, people of God, were always there from the first covenant to Abram.) The Temple Worship Cultus is fading and waxing old. But.....Jews, Being Born of The Law (Mosaic), must keep every Jot and tittle of that law (or absolutly none of it), until Heaven (the temple) and Earth (the people of The Land ie. Jerusalem and Judeah) fade away...The Gentiles were never 'under' The Law and Paul fought tooth and nail 'the Judeizer' (Christian Jews), from making Gentiles follow The Law of Moses "that our Fathers could not even bare"....Because Paul knew that that 'milestone' was 'about to vanish away'.

Where did you get this???---> "The Temple Worship Cultus is fading and waxing old. But.....Jews, Being Born of The Law (Mosaic), must keep every Jot and tittle of that law (or absolutly none of it), until Heaven (the temple) and Earth (the people of The Land ie. Jerusalem and Judeah) fade away...

The Jews never could, nor can they now, uphold the law! And Heaven and Earth are spoken of as a shadow portrail of the old Jewish system, but it's a shadow. The time between the Cross and the destruction of the Temple in AD70 has NO significance to salvation!! The Temple system was WORTHLESS from the time that Jesus sacrificed Himself. PERIOD! Paul was just trying to gather in those Jews that would go on with Jesus...Those that had ears to hear, and eyes to see. God gave the Jews 40 years to see and hear before He destroyed their worthless system. At the end of the 40 years, God visited Jerusalem to receive what was required of them. He was looking for the fruits of their system, but there were none; there could be none. He had the Romans destroy the place as a picture of what that place is worth....Nothing!
If a Jew since then to now wants to follow God, he HAS to do it through faith in Jesus. Any Jew who believes in the religion of Judaism will show up at the White Throne Judgment without his name being in the book of life. There's no other way. And yes, if sheol is where they were (Enoch and Elijah), sheol is where they still are; but of course this is not taking into consideration special circumstances that may be present in those two circumstances. ALL the OT Saints, and ALL the NT Saints are still awaiting the Resurrection. It hasn't happened yet. If you have some concrete verifyable evidence to the contrary, please post it. This is an event that God would not allow to go unnoticed. Paul said that they will not be made perfect without us. Heb. 11:40

God Bless Don




Where did I 'get this'?.....Read Acts...the second 'Jerusalem conference'....the Jerusalem Church was 'still' keeping The Law....+ Jesus. As Jesus said that 'The Law' (for Jews) would be in 'effect untill 'all was Fulfilled'...ie. The Temle and the City and nation were Judged, in 70AD...

Pauls mission field was first to the Jew and then to the gentile. But scripture says that he was hassled so much by the 'Jews', that he kick the dirt off of his feet and never tried to teach them again. If they (the Jews) were around Paul would boldly speak, but his main mission was to the Gentiles and Peters was to the circumcision. Paul first started preaching in the synaguege (sp) on the Sabbath to the Jews and to the Gentiles on Sunday.

Brother Les

Trumpet
01-08-2008, 02:13 PM
Hi Les,

I guess I don't see any differences between us then.

Don