PDA

View Full Version : Law of Moses vs. Ten Commandments?



MuadDib987
12-22-2007, 07:55 PM
Greetings. I'm following a thread on another forum about the keeping of the law, and someone pointed out that the Ten Commandments are not the same as the Laws of Moses. So I looked up the following page. . .

http://www.preparingforeternity.com/mosevs10.htm


:confused: This is a new concept for me. It's being claimed that the Talmud, not the 10 Commandments, are what has been fulfilled in Christ, and that obedience to the Big 10 is still required. (Not a major prollem for me, since I maintain that obeying Jesus' 2 "new" commands - to love God above all else and to love our neighbor as ourself - result in obeying the 10 essentially by default, and without the burden they walked under back in Moe's day).
Thanks for any input on this.

White
12-27-2007, 09:31 PM
Hello,
A heated discussion is going on over there - part on the Hanukkah thread and then the Ephraim & Manasseh thread - this article is worth posting, I think - I agree with you on the 2 which are essentially the 10!
Shalom!
Monique

Elisabeth
02-08-2008, 09:46 AM
Having come from a church where the law of God, the 10 commandments are believed to be still binding I think it might be useful for me to share what I have since discovered with regards to this law of 10 Commandments.

Deuteronomy 5:1-21 deals with these 10 Commandments and calls them part of the covenant God made with the Israelites. Mark this point, Covenant. Where were these commandments placed? In the ark of the covenant. These 10 commandments were the Covenant God made with the Israelites. Deuteronomy 4:13 says: He declared to you his covenant, the !0 commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on the two stone tablets'.
Notice that it says very clearly that the 10 Commandments written on the two stone tables constituted the Covenant God made with the Israelites.

So the first thing we have established is that the 10 Commandments constitute the Covenant God made with the Israelites. This was an agreement with both parties. God commanded, they would obey. Now these Commandments came as a packet together with a whole lot of ordinances or regulations. Ephesians 2:15 says the following: Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;


The ceremonial and 10 Commandments could not be separated. Some will call the law of 10 Commandments the moral law and the others the ceremonial laws. But that is not totally true. Anything that is moral applies at all times of the day and week and month and year. But ceremonial only applies to certain times. Hence the Sabbath is ceremonial and not moral. But even some of the other commandments are flawed and are not absolute. Not to lie in a perfect non sinful society can be applied at all times. But for a genuine Christian to apply it at all times in a sinful society is not possible. Say you are hiding a Jew who will be killed if found. You are asked if you are hiding a Jew. You are a 10 Commandment keeper. You say to yourself: I must not lie. So you betray the Jew. The Jew is killed. Now you have trespassed the law of thou shalt not kill. Had you however obeyed the Royal law of love, (See James) you would have lied, but saved the life of your Jewish friend.

So we have established that the 10 Commandments as given to the Hebrews was flawed. It could not apply at all times. Hence there must a another law that can be applied at all times. And this is the law of love.
Back to the first covenant, which we found were the 10 Commandments.
Hebrews 9 connects this first Covenant with several things: Regulations for worship and an earthly sanctuary. In the centre of this tabernacle was the covenant in the ark which contained the stone tables of the Covenant. See verse 4.

Then when we read on we come to 9:15 and onward where it says that Christ is the mediator of a New Covenant. Just as the first covenant came into being with the sprinkling of blood, so the New would be by the shed blood of Christ. Then chapter 10 says this of the 10 Commandments: The law is only a shadow of good things to come. Notice that it it does not make a distinction between ceremonial or moral. If there was a distinction it would have made this distinction. You do not find this distinction anywhere in the Bible.
Verse 10 says that Christ had come to set aside the first covenant and to establish the second. We already established that the first Covenant was the 10 Commandments written on stone. This therefore would be done away with.

The first covenant consisted of several parts:
1.Worship services
2.Law written on stone tables
3.Sacrifices of animals
4. Tabernacle. But none of this could take away sin. This first covenant was merely a shadow of the second. Hebrews 10:1.

The second covenant consisted of several parts also:
1. Ordinances for worship. (Communion).
2, Law written on our hearts. See Hebrew 10:16-17.
3. Jesus the sacrifice, Hebrews 9:12, 26
4. Heaven Hebrews 9:24

The first covenant was made with man at Sinai and was ratified by the sprinkling of the blood of an animal. Man had to do things, to obey.
It was an external covenant. It governed outward actions but could not make perfect with regards to the inner man and the conscience.

The second was between God and Christ and made before the foundation of the world but went into effect at the cross when the blood of Christ was spilled. Christ had to do things, to obey. Instead of doing we would have to have faith in what God and Christ would do for us.
It was an internal covenant. It was in the blood of Christ and it would be placed within us also. God would write His law on our hearts and purify our conscience from the guilt of sin. We do not obey a set of rules but we have faith that God would cause us to will and to do of His good pleasure just as He promised.

Here then come the 3 points of this covenant as mentioned by Jesus at the last supper:

1. And he took bread, and broke it, and gave it to them saying: This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of Me. Luke 22:19
2. A new command I give you: Love one another, as I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. John 13:34.
3. 'This cup is the New covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.' See Luke 22:20. (Here He makes clear that He will be the sacrificial lamb).

The whole OT system was merely a picture of what Christ would one day come to do. Notice that no woman was ever required to bring a sacrifice. Was there no salvation for a woman? The man was the head of the household. He represented Christ. Christ is the only one who can and does make us perfect. The woman represented the church. The church cannot do anything to make itself perfect.


Since the 10 Commandments were a shadow of the substance then what is its substance? Must it not be Christ Himself who kept the royal law of love? The 10 Commandments were just a mere shadow of the Royal law that Christ kept. The Sabbath was the centre of the OT law. Does He not say that we are to come to Him to find rest for our souls? (take My yoke upon you....)
By accepting Christ as our all sufficient Saviour we rest in Him and we have the Sabbath rest of Christ.
I can tell you from experience that we will never find rest for our souls by keeping a literal day. I tried to keep that day for years believing it to be binding. I had no issue with that day. I never tried to get out from under its yoke. I sincerely loved it. Only when the above became clear to me and I realized that the day was fulfilled in Christ I put this day aside. I do not and never had a bad conscience with regards to no longer obeying the Sabbath command at all. But when I am less than kind to another human being my conscience bothers me greatly.

Let me assure you that when you put yourself under the law of 10 Commandments and in particular the seventh Day Sabbath command, you find that no help from God is forthcoming. You will find that it is totally impossible to keep that day. I prayed for help repeatedly. I did not keep it to be saved. I just tried to keep it because I thought that God demanded it. But I never seemed to progress. One week I thought I had just about made it. The next week I failed miserably. Then for a few weeks things went reasonably and then I blew it again. True Sabbath keeping consistently week by week was impossible.
This is the reality of it: The 10 Commandments including the Seventh Day Sabbath were given to the Jews. Everything was tied to a nation, to a particular time in the history of mankind and a geographical location. Having to keep the Sabbath all over the world brings serious problems. Just think about the date line. Or about the times that day starts. Sunset to sunset. Our family (who live scattered over different countries) always had problems with regards to its starting time. When I phoned my children abroad and wanted a good talk with them I found that their Sabbath has just commenced but mine had come and gone. It was not a sin for me to speak about work and other things that interested me. But it was for them. So the Sabbath made it difficult for us to communicate if we were serious about Sabbath keeping. Often we chose to ignore the command. To have to keep the Sabbath in different locations of the world is therefore not reasonable. Then consider how one must deal with unbelievers on that day. You were not to discuss work or speak your own words or do your own pleasure. What if you have an unbelieving spouse? Do you keep silence when this spouse wishes to discuss his or your work with you? Or if your neighbour called, do you tell him to go home because you cannot discuss ordinary day to day things on that day? Or what if the postman came to deliver letters? Would you tell him to go and bring those letters on Monday instead? When do you post your letters so that no-one handles them on the Sabbath day? For the stranger was not to work for you either.
How do you cope with the electrical companies etc? Do you ask them to turn the electrics off for you?
Can you see how ridiculous this command is for our time and location? I always saw this but simply thought that God had His reasons and I simply had to accept them and to do the best I could under the circumstances. I never questioned it. But now I see how reasonable God in actual fact is by doing away with that day for Christians.
Why is it that those people who claim that the 10 commandments are still binding also start to introduce the food laws of Leviticus 11? And then in due time the feast days and a whole host of other laws and regulations? Somehow the introduction of the one leads to the other.
To conclude: I am fully convinced from the Scriptures that the OT 10 Commandments have never been part of God’s New Covenant as some people try to make us believe.
However this does not mean that we can live a lawless life. We have been commanded to love. This command is an even harder law to obey than the OT 10 Commandments. We can never obey this law without God writing this law in our hearts.
If love is not the motivating force in our lives, if we realize that we are totally selfish then it means that we are on the point of conversion or if we have already been converted then God is revealing to us that we have not fully understood how we are to live by faith. He wants to remove us from a must do religion and a trust in self, to a trust in Christ religion and what He can do within us. We do not need faith to obey a set of rules. For this we need lots of soul power. With practice we can achieve this obedience to a great degree but if we are totally honest we will also realize that we can never fully attain.
We do need faith however in what God has and will do in us. But God will not do it if we do not believe and trust that He will. To come to this faith means that we have to set aside all trust in self and all pride.

The just shall live by faith

Richard Amiel McGough
02-08-2008, 10:44 AM
Having come from a church where the law of God, the 10 commandments are believed to be still binding I think it might be useful for me to share what I have since discovered with regards to this law of 10 Commandments.

Deuteronomy 5:1-21 deals with these 10 Commandments and calls them part of the covenant God made with the Israelites. Mark this point, Covenant. Where were these commandments placed? In the ark of the covenant. These 10 commandments were the Covenant God made with the Israelites. Deuteronomy 4:13 says: He declared to you his covenant, the !0 commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on the two stone tablets'.
Notice that it says very clearly that the 10 Commandments written on the two stone tables constituted the Covenant God made with the Israelites.

Amen! :thumb: That is the first and most significant observation required for any valid discussion of the Law (Torah).


So the first thing we have established is that the 10 Commandments constitute the Covenant God made with the Israelites. This was an agreement with both parties. God commanded, they would obey. Now these Commandments came as a packet together with a whole lot of ordinances or regulations. Ephesians 2:15 says the following: Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;


Looking at the preceding verse adds a LOT of light to what God is telling us here:
Ephesians 2:13-15 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

The red words are a translation of luo (Strong's #3089):
λυω luo {loo'-o} a root word; TDNT - 2:60 & 4:328,543; v AV - loose 27, break 5, unloose 3, destroy 2, dissolve 2, put off 1, melt 1, break up 1, break down 1; 43 1) to loose any person (or thing) tied or fastened 1a) bandages of the feet, the shoes, 1b) of a husband and wife joined together by the bond of matrimony 1c) of a single man, whether he has already had a wife or has not yet married 2) to loose one bound, i.e. to unbind, release from bonds, set free 2a) of one bound up (swathed in bandages) 2b) bound with chains (a prisoner), discharge from prison, let go 3) to loosen, undo, dissolve, anything bound, tied, or compacted together 3a) an assembly, i.e. to dismiss, break up 3b) laws, as having a binding force, are likened to bonds 3c) to annul, subvert 3d) to do away with, to deprive of authority, whether by precept or act 3e) to declare unlawful 3f) to loose what is compacted or built together, to break up, demolish, destroy 3g) to dissolve something coherent into parts, to destroy 3h) metaph., to overthrow, to do away with

This is the same word used in 1 Cor 7 when speaking of being loosed from the marriage bond (which is the metaphor for Christ freeing us from the Torah in Rom 7):
1 Corinthians 7:27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.

And it also is the word used twice in these verses of 1 Peter when he spoke of the elements of the Torah being "melted" with fervent heat:
2 Peter 3:10-11 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,



The ceremonial and 10 Commandments could not be separated. Some will call the law of 10 Commandments the moral law and the others the ceremonial laws. But that is not totally true. Anything that is moral applies at all times of the day and week and month and year. But ceremonial only applies to certain times. Hence the Sabbath is ceremonial and not moral. But even some of the other commandments are flawed and are not absolute. Not to lie in a perfect non sinful society can be applied at all times. But for a genuine Christian to apply it at all times in a sinful society is not possible. Say you are hiding a Jew who will be killed if found. You are asked if you are hiding a Jew. You are a 10 Commandment keeper. You say to yourself: I must not lie. So you betray the Jew. The Jew is killed. Now you have trespassed the law of thou shalt not kill. Had you however obeyed the Royal law of love, (See James) you would have lied, but saved the life of your Jewish friend.

Absolutely correct. It seems to me that the "dilemma" of choosing between saving a life and lying is a real dilemma only for someone lost in legalism. Christ answered this question for us when He noted that sons could be circumcised and a donkey lifted from a pit on the Sabbath to prove that it was "ok" for a person to be healed on the Sabbath.

The legalist errs by thinking there is some intrinsic value in the Law itself, not recognizing its purpose is always to lead to Christ and is fulfilled in love.


So we have established that the 10 Commandments as given to the Hebrews was flawed. It could not apply at all times. Hence there must a another law that can be applied at all times. And this is the law of love.
Back to the first covenant, which we found were the 10 Commandments.
Hebrews 9 connects this first Covenant with several things: Regulations for worship and an earthly sanctuary. In the centre of this tabernacle was the covenant in the ark which contained the stone tables of the Covenant. See verse 4.

Then when we read on we come to 9:15 and onward where it says that Christ is the mediator of a New Covenant. Just as the first covenant came into being with the sprinkling of blood, so the New would be by the shed blood of Christ. Then chapter 10 says this of the 10 Commandments: The law is only a shadow of good things to come. Notice that it it does not make a distinction between ceremonial or moral. If there was a distinction it would have made this distinction. You do not find this distinction anywhere in the Bible.

Perfect clarity! Well done! :congrats:

There are many teachers out there who continue to confuse the issue of Torah by inventing a false dichotomy between the "moral" and the "ceremonial" aspects of the Law. I can understand their confusion. It is caused by the fact that much of the Covenant God made in the Ten Commandments coincides with general moral principles. But that does not make them the same thing! The Ten Commandments ARE the covenant of God with Israel.



Verse 10 says that Christ had come to set aside the first covenant and to establish the second. We already established that the first Covenant was the 10 Commandments written on stone. This therefore would be done away with.

The first covenant consisted of several parts:
1.Worship services
2.Law written on stone tables
3.Sacrifices of animals
4. Tabernacle. But none of this could take away sin. This first covenant was merely a shadow of the second. Hebrews 10:1.

The second covenant consisted of several parts also:
1. Ordinances for worship. (Communion).
2, Law written on our hearts. See Hebrew 10:16-17.
3. Jesus the sacrifice, Hebrews 9:12, 26
4. Heaven Hebrews 9:24

The first covenant was made with man at Sinai and was ratified by the sprinkling of the blood of an animal. Man had to do things, to obey.
It was an external covenant. It governed outward actions but could not make perfect with regards to the inner man and the conscience.

The second was between God and Christ and made before the foundation of the world but went into effect at the cross when the blood of Christ was spilled. Christ had to do things, to obey. Instead of doing we would have to have faith in what God and Christ would do for us.
It was an internal covenant. It was in the blood of Christ and it would be placed within us also. God would write His law on our hearts and purify our conscience from the guilt of sin. We do not obey a set of rules but we have faith that God would cause us to will and to do of His good pleasure just as He promised.

Here then come the 3 points of this covenant as mentioned by Jesus at the last supper:

1. And he took bread, and broke it, and gave it to them saying: This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of Me. Luke 22:19
2. A new command I give you: Love one another, as I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. John 13:34.
3. 'This cup is the New covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.' See Luke 22:20. (Here He makes clear that He will be the sacrificial lamb).

The whole OT system was merely a picture of what Christ would one day come to do. Notice that no woman was ever required to bring a sacrifice. Was there no salvation for a woman? The man was the head of the household. He represented Christ. Christ is the only one who can and does make us perfect. The woman represented the church. The church cannot do anything to make itself perfect.


Since the 10 Commandments were a shadow of the substance then what is its substance? Must it not be Christ Himself who kept the royal law of love? The 10 Commandments were just a mere shadow of the Royal law that Christ kept. The Sabbath was the centre of the OT law. Does He not say that we are to come to Him to find rest for our souls? (take My yoke upon you....)

By accepting Christ as our all sufficient Saviour we rest in Him and we have the Sabbath rest of Christ.
Amen!

That was an excellent post, from beginning to end. Thanks Elisabeth!

Richard

Christan
02-08-2008, 01:47 PM
I have a few points here I would like to share. The first is that of birthstones and Egyptian concept of a hall of double truth . There are two sets of the ten words in the OT . One with Ani and one with Anoci . 61 and 87 in value . I see alot of duality going on here. The first being male the second female. However in reference to birthstones the two Egyptian midwives Shai and Rennit are associated. Perhaps ( Leah & Rachel) are of the same origin. A bad translation is Fortune and Destiny. A better would be nuture and nature or name and attributes . I Dont mean to shout here its just the concept of a proper name. Note there are two equinoxs that correspond as well to the brew. Another thing to consider is were the two tablets written the same way as the two passages in the Torah ? Not as the Jews have it written on thier arks ? Hands and feet totalled we do have 20 fingers and toes. I suspect that they were mirror images of each other on each stone.


In Ezekiel the concept of a heart of flesh instead of stone is given.

26 And I will give you(A) a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Cross references:

Ezekiel 36:26 : Ezekiel 11:19, 20

I think that the Ten commandments written in our DNA on a heart of flesh is forgiving. An actual rock is not. However a living stone IE the DNA code of the Bible manifest in human form is just what Jesus is. I feel safe holding on two both of the versions of the Ten commandments as something to rest on and contemplate with. Peace Christan

MuadDib987
02-08-2008, 11:43 PM
I forgot I had even posted this. . .yes, great stuff there, Elizabeth.
In my efforts to share Jesus with the diverse crowd at a particular conspiracy theory forum, it's not uncommon to occasionally encounter a someone who's, shall we say assertive, about the necessity of christians obeying OT law, which leads sometimes to a butting of heads over why exactly we even need Jesus' sacrifice if the commandments given to Moses were curative instead of "merely" diagnostic. (And it's startling how easily some people who claim to serve God can get ugly over scriptural discussion, in plain sight of scores of bystanders who bear animosity towards the gospel to begin with). But, hey.