PDA

View Full Version : The Fourth Day



Rose
12-09-2012, 11:06 AM
Questions of Genesis


Continuing with my series of articles where I ask “Questions of Genesis”, I am going to focus on the Fourth Day of creation; the day in which god is said to have made the sun, moon, and the stars. The first problem most people find with this account is the order in which it is given, because on the third day god is said to have created all the plants on earth which is very strange considering plants need sunlight in order to grow. Setting aside for the time being the lack of sunlight for the plants, I want to focus on a much greater problem…the elements that the earth and plants are made of.

Genesis 1:14-19 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


Anyone with a basic understanding of science knows that all the elements heavier than hydrogen and helium were created in the crucibles of the stars, under extreme pressure that changed the light elements of hydrogen and helium, into the heavier elements of carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, iron and all the other elements that form the earth, moon and everything else including us humans. Billions of years ago, the ancient stars that went super-nova, exploded atoms out into space; supplying the materials that make up the moon and the earth. Keeping this in mind the proper order for creation would look something like this:



Stars made of hydrogen and helium are formed and exist for billions of years, in the process of going super-nova they collapse in upon themselves creating extreme pressure which forms all the elements heavier than hydrogen and helium.
After the star collapses in upon itself, it begins to expand outward and explodes sending all the atoms that were created in its core into the far reaches of space.
These massive dust clouds of elements are what form the planets, which then can support life…and the atoms our bodies are made of.


So, aside from the fact that plants were created before the sun, we also have the problem of the earth and moon (and everything else) being created before there were any stars in which the elements could be formed. If one is to believe the creation story as told in Genesis then one must believe that god created the earth with all its plants before there were any stars, including our closest star, the sun.

Of course the rational mind knows that primitive man had no idea of the workings of the cosmos, they didn’t know that plants needed sunlight to grow because of photosynthesis, or that the elements from which everything is made originated in the crucible of the stars. When Genesis was being written it didn’t matter what order things were created in since they thought god created everything from scratch anyway. Something to think about next time you read Genesis…


Rose

CWH
12-09-2012, 09:46 PM
Hi Rose,

Please note that there are two creations of lights mention in Genesis 1; one in Day 1 and the second in Day 4:
From what we beiieve in in astronomy is that our galaxy, the Milky Way, was formed first before the stars and planets and moons. Thus the first light mentioned in Genesis 1 day 1 is likely the light from the centre of the galaxy which sustained the vegetations created in day 4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxy_formation_and_evolution

This is my speculative interpretation of the creation in Genesis 1 (in red); it is quite systematic:

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The heavens usually means the universe but it could also means our galaxy the MIlky Way which contains billions of stars. The verse seems to suggest that the galaxy and the earth was formed at about the same time.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Darkness upon the face of the deep = ? dark matter (without form and void). Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters meaning ?God's energy energised the atoms of Oxygen and Hydrogen i.e waters. Waters may also mean molten elements. This suggests that the earth was formed from dark matter energised by fusion energy involving Oxygen and Hydrogen and other elements. It also suggests a molten earth containing all the elements that formed the earth.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
What light? It cannot be from the sun as it has yet to be formed? Likely, the light from the centre of our galaxy, the Milky Way. From observation in astronomy, we know that when galaxy formed it first emit a very bright light. There was morning and evening means that the earth started rotating thus causing the effect of Day and Night.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
The firmament suggests that there was something that contains(? gravity) that holds the waters in place on earth in the first place separating the 2 different types of fluids.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
The firmament (something that contains or gravity)that holds separated the two fluids; one forming the seas, and the other the atmosphere which contains moisture.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
The firmament (something that contains or gravity) that holds the sky/heavens. There was rotation of the earth, the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
The earth was all covered in water and then the land rises from the sea and dry land was formed.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Continent and seas were formed.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Since there is light and water, vegetation can now be created and sustained. there was no evolution of vegetations as each species is unique on its own bearing their own kind.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
No evolution of species of vegetations but each bearing their own kind.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
There was rotation of the earth, the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Then comes the creation of the sun, planets and the moons to indicate time, seasons, days and years. They seems to be created at the same time.

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
God created the sun and moon and the stars in the Milky Way as well to create light on earth; sun for the day and moon and stars for the night. The galactic light from the centre of our galaxy, the Milky should have subsided by then.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
The sun and moon and stars were fixed in heaven like clockwork to provide light for day and night regularly.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
There was rotation of the earth the 4th day.

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Then God created the marine animals and the birds on the same day according to their kind, i.e. no evolution.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
There was rotation of the earth, the 5th day.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Then God created all the land animals including humans according to its kind i.e. no evolution. Humans is to be superior and have control over all the animals created. Seems like the first human and animals created are vegetarian as stated in verse 29 and 30 but more likely it means that vegetations are created as a means for food for every living created directly as in vegetables or indirectly as in meat. There was earth's rotation for the sixth day.

*Note also a day of the Lord could be a thousand earth years or even more. So far no creation of the galaxy is observed to occur in one earth's day.

May God Bless His Creations.:pray:

sylvius
12-09-2012, 11:02 PM
Of course the rational mind knows that primitive man had no idea of the workings of the cosmos, they didn’t know that plants needed sunlight to grow because of photosynthesis, or that the elements from which everything is made originated in the crucible of the stars. When Genesis was being written it didn’t matter what order things were created in since they thought god created everything from scratch anyway. Something to think about next time you read Genesis…


Rose

Rashi's reading-rule:


http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8165/showrashi/true



Scripture did not teach us anything about the sequence of the earlier and the later


In fact there is just "day one", like written in Genesis 2:4,


These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, on the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven.

"day one" = "yom echad" -

Genesis 2:4,
"and God saw the light that it was good"

Genesis 2:5,
"And God called the light day,"

It is just that we did loose the ability of overwatching all of the time by eating the forbidden fruit, i.e. by taking away the letter "hey" from "hashishi" (so that was left "yom shishi") causing a breakage between the mundane and the holy.

jce
12-10-2012, 11:48 AM
Hello Rose

From whence came the elements? :eek:

John

Richard Amiel McGough
12-10-2012, 12:03 PM
Hello Rose

From whence came the elements? :eek:

John
Big Bang.

And from whence came the Big Bang? Maybe a parent universe. Maybe that's just the way the world works. Nobody knows. But to suggest that it came from the biblegod answers nothing and is entirely unbelievable given that the Bible is based on ancient cosmological mythology that is known to be false.

And more significant, the two creation accounts in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are inconsistent. Genesis 1 fits nicely with the idea that God created the universes "out of nothing" (which contradicts the idea that nothing can come from nothing) whereas Genesis 2 presents God as merely forming preexisting matter. The word bara (create) does not exist in the second account, which appears to be very, very primitive compared to Genesis 1. Indeed, it looks like it was added to the Bible very late after the rest of the OT was written because there are essentially no references to Genesis chapters 2 - 11 in the rest of the OT, whereas Genesis 1 is referenced in many places (e.g. Ten Commandments). I talk about this in my article called Where's Adam? The Mystery of the Missing Mythological Chapters of Genesis (http://www.biblewheel.com/content.php?23-Where-s-Adam-The-Mystery-of-the-Missing-Mythological-Chapters-of-Genesis).

Richard Amiel McGough
12-10-2012, 12:22 PM
Hi Rose,

Please note that there are two creations of lights mention in Genesis 1; one in Day 1 and the second in Day 4:
From what we beiieve in in astronomy is that our galaxy, the Milky Way, was formed first before the stars and planets and moons. Thus the first light mentioned in Genesis 1 day 1 is likely the light from the centre of the galaxy which sustained the vegetations created in day 4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxy_formation_and_evolution

Dude, the Milky Way is a galaxy. Galaxies are made of stars. It is absurd to say that the galaxy was "formed first before the stars." :doh:



This is my speculative interpretation of the creation in Genesis 1 (in red); it is quite systematic:

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The heavens usually means the universe but it could also means our galaxy the MIlky Way which contains billions of stars. The verse seems to suggest that the galaxy and the earth was formed at about the same time.

How do you know that the "heavens usually means the universe"? Why do you make up stuff like that? The Hebrews had no concept of the universe or galaxies. At best, it would be the phrase "heavens and earth" that signify the "universe" but even that is quite questionable because the "earth" probably meant only the land that they were standing on.



2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Darkness upon the face of the deep = ? dark matter (without form and void). Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters meaning ?God's energy energised the atoms of Oxygen and Hydrogen i.e waters. Waters may also mean molten elements. This suggests that the earth was formed from dark matter energised by fusion energy involving Oxygen and Hydrogen and other elements. It also suggests a molten earth containing all the elements that formed the earth.

Dark matter? Are you insane? The Bible doesn't know anything about modern relativistic cosmology. Get serious.




3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
What light? It cannot be from the sun as it has yet to be formed? Likely, the light from the centre of our galaxy, the Milky Way. From observation in astronomy, we know that when galaxy formed it first emit a very bright light. There was morning and evening means that the earth started rotating thus causing the effect of Day and Night.

There you go again - having galaxies (which are made of stars) before stars were created. How is it possible you can't see that you comments are totally incoherent? I just don't get it.



6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
The firmament suggests that there was something that contains(? gravity) that holds the waters in place on earth in the first place separating the 2 different types of fluids.

The "firmament" suggests that the Hebrews believed in the ancient cosmological mythology that was common to their time. I've explained this a million times. Here it is again:



I am mystified by your willingness to assert that the Bible is "God's revelation" when in fact you have never given any evidence supporting that assertion, and there is so much evidence to the contrary. The real issue is that the interpretation of the Bible changes in accordance with our scientific knowledge so the Bible can never serve as a guide to such questions. The truth can only be discerned by science. For example, when folks were ignorant of the true age of the universe they had no problem believing that it was created six thousand years ago. The Bible did not guide anyone into truth, but rather misled them to err by a factor of about 2.3 million (6,000 x 2,3000,000 = 13.8 billion years). God's "eyewitness account" gave no Christian any idea about the truth of "what really happened." They had to wait for the scientific discovery of the geological ages back in the 19th century which then forced Christians to change their interpretation of "God's eternal Word" to conform to the new information. Some Christians refuse to accept this evidence, even now in the 21st century. This is a monument to how dogmatic religion blinds people to truth. The irony is that they can't see that they are merely holding to antiquated "science" that presents a primitive mythological cosmology of a three-tiered universe with of a flat earth held up by pillars with water below and above held up by a dome. Here is an article from the conservative Christian think-tank called www.Biologos.org (http://www.biologos.org/) that explains the ancient mythological cosmology of the Bible: Mesopotamian Cosmic Geography in the Bible. (http://biologos.org/blog/mesopotamian-cosmic-geography-in-the-bible-part-3) It quotes lots of Scripture. I think they give good support for there conclusion.

http://biologos.org/uploads/static-content/godawa_3_1.jpg

This is the worldview that folks would get just by reading the Bible. The truth is found only by scientific research. To appeal to the Bible as the source of objective scientific facts about the world is obviously erroneous and misleading.



No Christian on this forum has even attempted to refute this evidence.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-10-2012, 12:24 PM
It is just that we did loose the ability of overwatching all of the time by eating the forbidden fruit, i.e. by taking away the letter "hey" from "hashishi" (so that was left "yom shishi") causing a breakage between the mundane and the holy.
How does a missing letter "cause" anything?

sylvius
12-10-2012, 12:41 PM
How does a missing letter "cause" anything?


There must be missing something in your brain, kind of connection, maybe the aqueduct of Sylvius

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_aqueduct

sylvius
12-10-2012, 12:53 PM
The "firmament" suggests that the Hebrews believed in the ancient cosmological mythology that was common to their time. I've explained this a million times. Here it is again:

No Christian on this forum has even attempted to refute this evidence.



A nice thought, nice to meditate upon:

http://isaacmozeson.posterous.com/the-creators-s-h-a-m-a-s-candle



December 9, 2012
The Creator's S H A M A S candle
Viewed 17 times

http://getfile5.posterous.com/getfile/files.posterous.com/isaacmozeson/dMLFt5cLkwbhbSeq7A4rYy9juELAXjKMet0uHmLZjWCOu9GESc 33YxzSPEml/chanukah5773.jpg

שמש S(H)eMeSH is the sun (Deuteronomy 4:41). It can be broken down to שם SHahM (there – Genesis 2:12) + אש AiSH (fire – see “ASIA”) or “fire is there.”

The SUN is related to a שמש SHaMahSH (servant, sexton ). The synagogue caretaker or beadle, Hebrew שמש SHaMahSH or Yiddish sham’is is from Aramaic. Coptic shemshe is a servant
The sun is the Creator’s most visible shamis candle in our solar system.

Ancient animists and worshipers of the SUN have been so impressed by the flashy brass buttons of the downstairs doorman
(the Creator’s servant, the sun), that they forgot about addressing his boss, the landlord, in the penthouse way above.


Remember:

The candlestick burns on olive-oil.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-10-2012, 12:59 PM
There must be missing something in your brain, kind of connection, maybe the aqueduct of Sylvius

I'm sure you are altogether correct. The "something" being a willingness to believe things that have no basis in reality.

sylvius
12-10-2012, 01:14 PM
I'm sure you are altogether correct. The "something" being a willingness to believe things that have no basis in reality.

Fundament is Hebrew "y'sod", mystery is "sod" --

That's why it is said: "The fundament is mystery".

Mark 4:10-12,

And when he was alone, those present along with the Twelve questioned him about the parables. He answered them, “The mystery of the kingdom of God has been granted to you. But to those outside everything comes in parables, so that
‘they may look and see but not perceive, and hear and listen but not understand, in order that they may not be converted and be forgiven.


"those outside" - the rational sceptics.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-10-2012, 01:31 PM
Fundament is Hebrew "y'sod", mystery is "sod" --

That's why it is said: "The fundament is mystery".

Mark 4:10-12,

And when he was alone, those present along with the Twelve questioned him about the parables. He answered them, “The mystery of the kingdom of God has been granted to you. But to those outside everything comes in parables, so that
‘they may look and see but not perceive, and hear and listen but not understand, in order that they may not be converted and be forgiven.



"those outside" - the rational sceptics.
I've known about yesod and sod for decades.

So how do you distinguish between a nut case making up crap and someone with authentic insight into sod?

sylvius
12-10-2012, 01:50 PM
I've known about yesod and sod for decades.

So how do you distinguish between a nut case making up crap and someone with authentic insight into sod?

By means of my aqueduct = wet finger = mere guesswork

By the way, gematria of "sod" is 70, same as of "yayin", wine.

When Jesus took the cup and said:
"“This is my blood of the covenant, which has been shed for many. "

What did He mean?

After Deuteromomy 8:8 wine belongs to the third day.
Which is also the day of the mystery of the word "tov" being the 153rd word from the beginning.
And it is over a cup of wine that the Sabbath is hallowed, in reciting the last part of Genesis 1:31 and the first three verses of Genesis 2, saying out loud: 'yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamayim"

And also on the third day (the day of the wine) He is said to be risen, which coincides:


Amen, I say to you, I shall not drink again the fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”

Rose
12-10-2012, 05:49 PM
Hello Rose

From whence came the elements? :eek:

John

Hello John,

The point of my article is not "from whence came the elements", but rather the order in which god created everything. To be scientifically correct Genesis should start by saying, "In the beginning god created the stars". Primitive minds could have understood the correct order just as well as they understood the incorrect order, and god in all his wisdom should have known that man would eventually figure out the correct order and prove his word to be wrong.

Rose

Rose
12-10-2012, 06:02 PM
Hi Rose,

Please note that there are two creations of lights mention in Genesis 1; one in Day 1 and the second in Day 4:
From what we beiieve in in astronomy is that our galaxy, the Milky Way, was formed first before the stars and planets and moons. Thus the first light mentioned in Genesis 1 day 1 is likely the light from the centre of the galaxy which sustained the vegetations created in day 4.


14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Then comes the creation of the sun, planets and the moons to indicate time, seasons, days and years. They seems to be created at the same time.

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
God created the sun and moon and the stars in the Milky Way as well to create light on earth; sun for the day and moon and stars for the night. The galactic light from the centre of our galaxy, the Milky should have subsided by then.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
The sun and moon and stars were fixed in heaven like clockwork to provide light for day and night regularly.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
There was rotation of the earth the 4th day.



The Milky Way galaxy is made of STARS that's why we can see it, and STARS were made on the fourth day, that was the whole point of my article. The writers of Genesis got the order WRONG! Don't you think that god in all his wisdom should have known that man would eventually discover the workings of the cosmos, showing the order in which the Bible declares that god created the universe is WRONG.

Rose

Richard Amiel McGough
12-10-2012, 07:40 PM
Fundament is Hebrew "y'sod", mystery is "sod" --

That's why it is said: "The fundament is mystery".

Mark 4:10-12,

And when he was alone, those present along with the Twelve questioned him about the parables. He answered them, “The mystery of the kingdom of God has been granted to you. But to those outside everything comes in parables, so that
‘they may look and see but not perceive, and hear and listen but not understand, in order that they may not be converted and be forgiven.




"those outside" - the rational sceptics.
I've known about yesod and sod for decades.

So how do you distinguish between a nut case making up crap and someone with authentic insight into sod?
By means of my aqueduct = wet finger = mere guesswork

By the way, gematria of "sod" is 70, same as of "yayin", wine.

When Jesus took the cup and said:
"“This is my blood of the covenant, which has been shed for many. "

What did He mean?

After Deuteromomy 8:8 wine belongs to the third day.
Which is also the day of the mystery of the word "tov" being the 153rd word from the beginning.
And it is over a cup of wine that the Sabbath is hallowed, in reciting the last part of Genesis 1:31 and the first three verses of Genesis 2, saying out loud: 'yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamayim"

And also on the third day (the day of the wine) He is said to be risen, which coincides:


Amen, I say to you, I shall not drink again the fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”


You didn't answer my question.

CWH
12-11-2012, 02:58 AM
Dude, the Milky Way is a galaxy. Galaxies are made of stars. It is absurd to say that the galaxy was "formed first before the stars." :doh:
Of course, I know the Milky Way is a galaxy of stars. What I mean is that it is believed when the Milky Way is first formed, it was a collection of hydrogen gases. Such collection of gases formed fusion energy and it is this fusion energy that caused the formation of stars in the Milky Way and the bright light from the centre of the Milky Way.


How do you know that the "heavens usually means the universe"? Why do you make up stuff like that? The Hebrews had no concept of the universe or galaxies. At best, it would be the phrase "heavens and earth" that signify the "universe" but even that is quite questionable because the "earth" probably meant only the land that they were standing on.
So how do you know what the concept of heaven is from the Hebrews' mind? They may not much knowledge of the heavens but not with God who formed the heavens who inspired them to write and they are describing it from the best with their limited vocabulary.


Dark matter? Are you insane? The Bible doesn't know anything about modern relativistic cosmology. Get serious."
Then how do you describe the meaning of the "Sprit of God was moving over the waters" and the "dark of the deep".
God certainly have the knowledge of dark matter which we humans doesn't have a single clue. The Hebrews were just describing the knowledge that God gave them regarding cosmology to the best of their vocabulary.
The Indians of the Amazon jungle described the radio when they first saw one as a "voice box", this is call neologism.


The "firmament" suggests that the Hebrews believed in the ancient cosmological mythology that was common to their time. I've explained this a million times. Here it is again:
Your idea is just a convoluted rationalization to rationalize the meaning of firmament. Firmament is simply described by the Hebrews to mean a cover to contain something in their best vocabulary when inspired by God and to me it may mean gravity or some forces which holds our atmosphere and the solar system.

God Bless.:pray: