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gilgal
12-06-2007, 11:42 PM
I was looking over this chapter and wanted to open a thread so I can have your input on this chapter.

In particular I was thinking of the interpretation of the symbolism. Why is it that the 4 heads of the Leopard in chapter 7 is differed as 4 horns in chapter 8? Why is it that chapter 7 talks about untamed beasts whereas chapter 8 talks about tamed animals?

Why is it that it is read that the goat went so fast and furious that it didn't even touch the ground? How should we interpret that?

Here are some questions to begin with.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-07-2007, 11:16 AM
I was looking over this chapter and wanted to open a thread so I can have your input on this chapter.

In particular I was thinking of the interpretation of the symbolism. Why is it that the 4 heads of the Leopard in chapter 7 is differed as 4 horns in chapter 8? Why is it that chapter 7 talks about untamed beasts whereas chapter 8 talks about tamed animals?

Why is it that it is read that the goat went so fast and furious that it didn't even touch the ground? How should we interpret that?

Here are some questions to begin with.
Very timely thread. Rose and I read Daniel 8 last night. It has lots of powerful connections with Dan 7 and Rev 13, but there are some difficult points to interpret.


The four beasts of Dan 7 seem to be amalgamated in the beast of Rev 13. I think that the four heads are the four honrs, cuz the text identifies them as four kingdoms::
Daniel 8:22-23 Now that being broken [Alexander died], whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.Now folks differ on the interp of v 23. I'm wondering if this is where the prophecy transists to the Roman empire. I say this because then the "little horn" of Dan 8:9 would be the same as the one in Dan 7:8 so both would be identified with the Beast of Rev 13. This makes sense because the descriptions are so very close.

But as far as I know, most folks think that the second "little horn" of Dan 8:9 must be Antiochus Epiphanes (167 BC) because after he desolates the temple, it is "cleansed" and the opposite seems to have happened in 70 AD when the Temple was destroyed. Everything else fits perfectly with the "little horn" of Dan 7:8 and the beast of Rev 13. Also, the word "and he shall destroy (v'yishchit) the city and the sanctuary" in Dan 9:26 is identical to the "and he shall shall destroy the mighty and the holy people" in Dan 8:24. And it appears nowhere else in Scripture.




So I looked into the Herbew of the difficult verse:
Daniel 8:13-14 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. As it turns out, the verse doesn't actually mean "then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." The Hebrew is simply says "v'nitzdak qodesh." The root word is tzadak (to justify, to declare right). Most English Bibles reflect this meaning:

RSV then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.
CJB after which the sanctuary will be restored to its rightful state.
GWN Then the holy place will be made acceptable to God."
YLT then is the holy place declared right.
JPS then shall the sanctuary be victorious.'
NAS then the holy place will be properly restored.
NET then the sanctuary will be put right again."The true meaning is difficult to discern because this verse is the ONLY occurrence of the root tzadak in the niphal conjugation, so we have nothing to compare it with.

But one perfectly valid translation could read "Then the Holy One will be vindicated" and this is, of course, exactly what happened in the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
12-07-2007, 01:49 PM
I was looking over this chapter and wanted to open a thread so I can have your input on this chapter.

In particular I was thinking of the interpretation of the symbolism. Why is it that the 4 heads of the Leopard in chapter 7 is differed as 4 horns in chapter 8? Why is it that chapter 7 talks about untamed beasts whereas chapter 8 talks about tamed animals?

Why is it that it is read that the goat went so fast and furious that it didn't even touch the ground? How should we interpret that?

Here are some questions to begin with.
Those are good questions.

Why does the representation change form head to horns? I don't know, but the same shift happens in Rev 12-13. The dragon has seven crowns on seven heads, but the beast has ten crowns on ten heads. Its consistent, so im makes me wonder what is being taught. One idea is that the heads represent kingdoms, and the horns kings. Or something along those lines. Its hard to figure out because the symbols overlap a lot.

As for the types of animals - wild vs. domestic ... hummmm .... I don't know. And really, it was a Ram, a Goat, a Big Horn gets broken and then four horns and then one little horn. In the explanation in Dan 8:19ff we learn Ram = Persia, Goat = Greece, Big Horn = Alexander, Four Horns his divided kingdom ... and the little horn? I think that is the same as the little horn in Chapt 7. The description of both is very tight with the beast of Rev 13. That's how I'm currently thinking on it. But I need to do lots more research. Most folks seem to think the second little horn is Antiochus.

It is interesting that dan 8 doesn't have a symbol for Babylon.

Richard

gilgal
12-07-2007, 04:47 PM
Note that Jesus Christ as the Lamb is also described as having 7 horns and 7 eyes in Revelation 5.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-07-2007, 07:37 PM
Note that Jesus Christ as the Lamb is also described as having 7 horns and 7 eyes in Revelation 5.
True, but I don't sense a connection .... do you?

gilgal
12-07-2007, 11:09 PM
I threw that in to compare. The lamb, goat and ram are sacrificial animals.

TheForgiven
12-09-2007, 05:06 PM
I threw that in to compare. The lamb, goat and ram are sacrificial animals.

How would you describe these animal in character? Then, once you've determined their implications, try applying this to man.

Joe

gilgal
12-10-2007, 05:25 PM
http://66.155.114.80/video/Dsl/5811-E.wmv

Check this out on the subject. Right-click and save target.

TheForgiven
12-13-2007, 01:20 PM
Check this out on the subject. Right-click and save target.

Okay, I listened to the article. They did a great job all the way until they got to the four horns after the death of the He goat. Those horns are NOT future, but past.

I'll explain later.

Joe

gilgal
12-13-2007, 01:39 PM
Did Alexander come from a city which means "goat"?

TheForgiven
12-13-2007, 05:30 PM
Did Alexander come from a city which means "goat"?

Yes, and the He Goat represented the kingdom of Greece. I've written a fair post explaining this. I hope you like it.

I’m glad that I’m able to present to you the correct and true interpretation of Daniel chapter 8. I’ve read some of the Futurist commentaries and their theories, but one fatal flaw they are not considering is that they miss one important fact, regarding any kingdom which existed during the days of the Jewish Nation, which we will refer to as “Daniel’s People”. Every event evolves around the time frame of Daniel’s people, specifically, Daniel’s seventy sevens.

I will not, however, spend a great deal of time explaining the Seventy weeks of seven, as brother Richard has done a fantastic job in his forum explaining the significance the 490 years of Daniel’s people and city; this is referred to as the time of captivity. :smiley_applause:

Therefore, this post is limited to the following details of Daniel chapter 8:

1. The Ram with two horns
2. The He goat which attacks the Ram
a. Has great speed that its feet never touches the ground
b. Has a huge horn
c. Loses the huge horn and is divided into four horns
d. A little horn arises
i. Attacks the south, east, and Jerusalem
ii. Lifts itself against the Host of Heaven
iii. Exalts Himself as a god
iv. Out-laws the daily temple sacrifice
v. Defiles the temple and ruins its teaching
vi. Set up an image of Zeus within the temple

Now that we have the ground work for Daniel chapter 8, before reading the remainder of this post and in order to save space, please refer to Daniel chapter 8: 1-9

I’ll begin with the Ram and two horns. Daniel is told what this kingdom represents in verses 20 and 22:


20 The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. 22 As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.

The Ram with two horns represents the Kingdom of Media and Persia. The Male Goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn on the He Goat is the first King of Greece. Here are the Kings of the Ram with two horns:

1. Media – Darius
2. Persia – Cyrus

These two nations dominated the face of the earth, but they began to clash against each other. The Persian Empire grew very strong. But to save space on this post, I recommend reading up on the historical details of these two Empires on the web; just google it. Cyrus was responsible for saving the Jews and permitting them to return to Jerusalem and begin the rebuilding process of the city during the days of Ezra. But there was a delay in the rebuilding due to a protest. In later years, King Artaxerxes permitted the Jews to continue rebuilding, and was the next King of Persia. Artaxerxes advanced his kingdom against the Medes consisting primarily of Greeks. This war gave rise to the well known legion of the Spartans; a battle of 300 Spartans against the entire Persian Empire. A movie was released a few months ago which tells the mysterious story of the “300” legion.

The Spartans (Greece) were defeated by the Persian Empire, and year’s later Greece would avenge itself upon the Persian Empire. This gives rise to the Kingdom of Greece, whose King is perhaps the most prominently known throughout history. This king is recognized as the large horn on the He Goat, who attacks the Ram with two horns and dashes it to the ground. Its speed was so fast, and his might so powerful, that the Persian Empire was defeated in a very short time. And who was this great legendary king? None other than Alexander the Great, known as the Macedonian King, who ironically, claims that he was the son of Zeus, who also became the most powerful king of Greece. History records the swiftness of his kingdom and the might of his military that nearly any nation he attacked was defeated with precision and speed. Therefore, Alexander the Great is the large horn upon the He Goat, and the He Goat is the kingdom of Greece. Additionally, when Alexander had a son, he states that his birth was from "the goat".

So far, we’ve learned that the Ram with two horns represented the two kingdoms, Media and Persia. Darius was king of the Medes, and Cyrus (later Artaxerxes) was the two successive kings of Persia. We also learned that the He Goat running so fast that its feet did not touch the ground was a representation of the speed and mighty power of the Empire of Greece, who’s powerful king (large horn) was Alexander the Great.

But the scripture says in verse 22 that the one horn was broken off, and four horns grew in its place. The Angel also adds, “But not by their power...” This to me indicates that these kings became king because Alexander died. Historically speaking, it's believed that Alexander died from a severe sickness on the way home to Greece. But historical sources now claim that he was in fact poisoned by his own friends. The death of Alexander, due to greed, power-lust, and wealth caused his mighty kingdom to be broken up into four kingdoms. These were:

1. Cassandra became king of Greece and the adjacent countries
2. Lysimachus became king of Asia Minor, Thrace, Hellespont and Bosporus which lies north of Palestine.
3. Ptolemy had Egypt and all its surrounding regions.
4. Seleucus had Babylon and Syria, which lays east of Palestine.

These were the four kings which parceled out Alexander’s Great Empire, but obviously through their treachery against the mighty king.

Daniel is told in verses 23 – 25 that another king would rise during the latter days of the four kingdoms mentioned above, from one of its cities. I believe this was probably from Syria or Babylon, under the control of Seleucus. This king would be an evil ruler who exalts himself, destroys and defiles the temple, kills many of the saints (Jews), and ruins the instructions of the temple service, causing the morning and the daily sacrifice to cease. This self exalting person is recognized as the “little horn” which grows from one of the four kingdoms mentioned above.

But who was this mysterious and fierce little horn? Before I give you my answer, I’ll briefly mention what Futurist believe. They believe this little horn is the Future AC. I do not agree at all with this eschatology. Why? The little horn has to exist during the days of Daniel’s people, during the days of the seventy weeks of sevens, which can only refer to the Jewish nation of the time. Given this understanding, Futurist usurp an un-biblical and unprincipled gapped week after then 69th week of Jesus Christ. This idea must be studied, but more importantly, rejected for the mere lack of proof. No scripture anywhere in the Bible indicates a gap! Not even one! This is a forced theology in order to substantiate it’s own claim in order to some how validate a rebuilt temple in the future (no scriptural support), a rebirth of an Anti-Christ, another Tribulation (as if the first one wasn’t bad enough), and another coming day wrath to destroy the temple.

That brings up another point! How is it that Jesus will return, kick Satan out of His seat, and rule Jerusalem and the world for a 1000 years, if he actually comes to destroy the temple? Daniel is told, according to the true translation of the LXX, that the Messiah would use the prince “who was to come” and destroy the city and the sanctuary [we know this happened in 70 AD]. Brother Richard correctly blesses us with his knowledge of Hebrew, and proves that the KJV and our current English versions are incorrect, thereby proving the correct translation of the LXX. It was Jesus who would come in wrath upon the city and the rejected people of Daniel, using the prince who was to come; namely prince Titus. Therefore, why would Christ rule from a throne that is destroyed after Satan is kicked out of Jerusalem? This theory is extremely, and I mean extremely, contradicting and must be rejected, though the choice is yours.

Now, back to this mysterious person who performs his fierceness against the holy land, who also desecrates the temple, lifts a high hand to heaven, and overcomes the saints of the city? Was it Nero Caesar???? NOT A CHANCE! Jesus had not yet come and was not predicted to come in Daniel chapter 8. Chapter 8 was about Media, Persia, Greece, and four kingdoms out of Greece, plus the little horn. Plus, Daniel is told that there would be 2,300 evenings and mornings from the time the sacrifice is taken away until the temple is restored. This was not a literal or exact 2,300 days. This attack began in 168 B.C. and was completed around 165 B.C. totaling about three years, but that does not equal 2,300 days. The problem is not in days, but in evenings and mornings, indicating that the night is not reckoned with this number. So 2,300 full years, since sacrifices were accomplished twice a day, is reduced to about 1150 days. This is roughly 3.1 years, about the time Antiochus desecrated the temple, and the temple service was restored.

What did Antiochus do that was so bad? I’ll simply refer you to this website source:

http://www.bible-history.com/sketches/ancient/antiochus-epiphanes.html

In conclusion, the Ram with two horns was the Medes and Persians, as indicated in chapter 8. The He goat which plunged after the Ram with two horns was Greece, who’s might King was Alexander the Great, who in turn was killed by his own followers, by which they gained power over four regions, thereby fulfilling the image of the four horns. And finally, from the loins of Seleucuc, gave birth to the little horn, which we know as Antiochus Epiphanes. It was he who desecrated the sanctuary, set up an image of Zeus in the temple, and sacrificed a pig on the altar of God.

I hope you have found this to be useful to your studies. God bless you all.

Joe

MHz
12-14-2007, 01:39 PM
Hi Joe,


I’m glad that I’m able to present to you the correct and true interpretation of Daniel chapter 8.
Rather than set yourself up for a knock-down would it not be easier to say something like IMHO?



I’ve read some of the Futurist commentaries and their theories, but one fatal flaw they are not considering is that they miss one important fact, regarding any kingdom which existed during the days of the Jewish Nation, which we will refer to as 'Daniel’s People'. Every event evolves around the time frame of Daniel’s people, specifically, Daniel’s seventy sevens.
And that flaw is ?



So far, we’ve learned that the Ram with two horns represented the two kingdoms, Media and Persia. Darius was king of the Medes, and Cyrus (and later Artaxerxes) was the two, though successive, kings of Persia. We also learned that the He Goat was a representation of the speed and mighty power of the Empire of Greece, who’s powerful king (large horn) was Alexander the Great.

Okay



But the scripture says in verse 22 that the one horn was broken off, and four horns grew in its place. But the Angel adds, 'But not by their power...' This to me indicates that these kings became king because the mighty king, Alexander, had died. Historically speaking, legion has it that Alexander died from a severe sickness on the way home to Greece. But the truth was revealed that he was in fact poisoned by his own friends. After his death, greed, power, and wealth enabled his mighty kingdom to be broken up into four kingdoms. These were:

1. Cassandra became king of Greece and the adjacent countries
2. Lysimachus became king of Asia Minor, Thrace, Hellespont and Bosporus which lies north of Palestine.
3. Ptolemy had Egypt and all its surrounding regions.
4. Seleucus had Babylon and Syria, which lays Palestine.


Not okay.
Scripture would only cover those who had control over Jerusalem itself. I had a quick look for maps on that site but since it is quite large do you have something that would show each of those Empires showing that Jerusalem is in each and every one?
This is one of those areas that you either try to figure things out through our history book or you stick just with Scripture. If you went with the latter, only one of the horns (that came from Alex's kingdom) is covered. Concerning the 70 weeks, only the empire that was in control when the Messiah was born is important because 'things happen' that concern the city and the people. Rome is certainly identified by name as being in control of Jerusalem. Nothing is said about who was there between Alex and Rome. Ch:11 is not the brass, it is the iron and clay.



Continuing, Daniel is told in verses 23 – 25 that another king would later rise during the latter days of the four kingdoms mentioned above. And out of this kingdom shall come forth an evil ruler who exalts himself, destroys and defiles the temple, kills many of the saints (Jews), and ruins the instructions of the temple service. This self exalting person is recognized as the 'little horn' which grows from one of the four kingdoms mentioned above. So who was this mysterious and fierce little horn?
It doesn't say that at all, they are conquered, nor does it say they came out of them. The iron and clay have two horns, the 1st must come before the second horn.
Da:2:39:
And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee,
and another third kingdom of brass,
which shall bear rule over all the earth.

At the end of the above this king takes over, and it doesn't sound good for the last of the brass,
Da:7:7:
After this I saw in the night visions,
and behold a fourth beast,
dreadful and terrible,
and strong exceedingly;
and it had great iron teeth:
it devoured and brake in pieces,
and stamped the residue with the feet of it:
and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it;
and it had ten horns.

This is the one that takes over from the brass, the little horn is after,
Da:7:8:
I considered the horns,
and,
behold,
there came up among them another little horn,
before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots:
and,
behold,
in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man,
and a mouth speaking great things.

In Re: it is the 10 men empowered by the Beast, when that number is reduced to 7 that is when the False Prophet makes his first appearance. The Beast from the Pit allows that to happen, he has as much control over the 'little horn' as he did over the 3 he replaces.

IYHO saints are Jews here. This would make a good thread, at what point does a person become a saint after first hearing about God? Interesting because if a person who fears God is just that, a person who fears God, they would be less powerful than the two witnesses of Re:11.
Does it take a certain amount of wisdom to be considered a saint? Depending on how much wisdom is required I would think that anybody who is with Christ for 1,000 years should be a saint by then. Jesus said He only did what his Father has shown Him. The camp of the saints is around the beloved city, everybody there would be a saint, I don't dispute the title of saint as applying to them, nor to the 24 around the throne, it says they are saints so they are saints.
My dispute comes when the word saint is associated with somebody the we classify as saints, sort of like claiming a title before God gives you that title.
Re:19:5:
And a voice came out of the throne,
saying,
Praise our God,
all ye his servants,
and ye that fear him,
both small and great.

Since none of us has written anything that appears in Scripture I think that would put is as being the ones that fear God. That is our 1st Law

1Pe:2:17: Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

Re:19:5:
And a voice came out of the throne,
saying,
Praise our God,
all ye his servants,
and ye that fear him,
both small and great.

The ones that fear God will become saints, but only when Christ hands out that title, that is part of the rewards promised to people who fear God.

By the time Neb dies he had some thought about God that were quite different from when he was first mentioned. No other kingdom after that had that kind of relationship with God, that would make them inferior without even looking at 'territorial issues'.
Notice this verse is after the 70 weeks, which also told that the city would perish and the people scattered, this would include all the iron and brass. Other kingdoms lasted for decades and centuries, the iron and clay lasts for just the time given in Revelation, measured in single digit years.

Da:10:14: Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Is that many days after the end of the previous chapter? Israel after going into exile?




Before I give you my answer, I’ll briefly mention was Futurist believes. They believe this little horn is the Future AC. That is perhaps the most flawed and ludicrous thing I’ve ever heard. Why? Because the little horn has to exist during the days of Daniel’s people. Additionally, he must exist during the days of the seventy weeks of sevens which can only refer to the Jewish nation of the time.

[QUOTE=TheForgiven;4647]
Given this understanding, Futurist usurps an un-biblical and unprincipled myth of a gapped week after then 69th week of Jesus Christ. This idea must be studied, but more importantly, rejected for the mere lack of proof. No scripture anywhere in the Bible indicates a gap.

Not really an issue since I see the 70 as being past, but it stops right there, anything that John was shown in Re as coming is still coming. We have the vision required before God can act. That is where we are, between the vision and the vision actually unfolding,
Isa:42:9: Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Isa:55:11: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

The vision of the statue in Da:2 didn't unfold right then and there, it is still unfolding. Getting the 70 weeks correct is the only way to determine what time means in Re, most importantly, does it blow the theory of a 7 year trib out of the water, you bet it does. It does not negate what Re talks about, only the time-span in which it takes place.




This is a forced theology in order to substantiate it’s own claim in order to some how validate a rebuilt temple, a rebirth of an Anti-Christ, another Tribulation (as if the first one wasn’t bad enough), and another coming of wrath by Jesus to destroy the temple.
Da:11:45:
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;
yet he shall come to his end,
and none shall help him.

In terms of Scripture, if Christ is associated with a tabernacle it is a house of worship,
Eze:37:27: My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

So if Satan & Co. build some sort of place that they say is God's throne and then they will kill nobody who does not worship 'the image' that is what temple is destroyed at Christs coming, like in an hour from when this verse happens,
2Th:2:4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



That brings up another point! How is it that Jesus will come, kick Satan out of his seat, and rule Jerusalem and the world for a 1000 years, if he actually comes to destroy the temple?
Key word " I " will build.
Am:9:11: In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

I'm not sure anybody is even there to witness just how He builds it, but it is quite clear that Christ alone does the work, no human hands involved, it is standing there when the very first people arrive, their first jobs are to pick all the bones and burn the destroyed weapons of war.



Daniel is told, according to the true translation of the LXX, that the Messiah would use the prince 'who was to come' and destroy the city and the sanctuary. Brother Richard correctly blesses us with his knowledge of Hebrew, and proves that the KJV and our current English versions are incorrect, thereby proving the correct translation of the LXX. It was Jesus who would come in wrath upon the city and the rejected people of Daniel. Therefore, why would Christ rule from a throne that is destroyed after Satan is kicked out of Jerusalem? This theory is extremely, and I mean extremely, contradicting and must be rejected, though the choice is yours.

:confused2: The Messiah is the 'prince who was to come', technically the Gospel was being preached in Rome before 70AD. Romans were certainly Gentiles, just because they may have lacked some knowledge doesn't exclude them from being 'His people' in 70AD.



Now, back to this mysterious person who performs his fierceness against the holy land, who also desecrates the temple, lifts a high hand to heaven, and overcomes the saints of the city? Was it Nero Caesar???? NOT A CHANCE! Jesus had not yet come and was not predicted to come in Daniel chapter 8. Chapter 8 was about Media, Persia, Greece, and four kingdoms out of Greece, plus the little horn. Plus, Daniel is told that there would be 2,300 evenings and mornings from the time the sacrifice is taken away until the temple is restored. This was not a literal or exact 2,300 days. This attack began in 168 B.C. and was completed around 165 B.C. totaling about three years, but that does not equal 2,300 days. The problem is not in days, but in evenings and mornings, indicating that the night is not reckoned with this number. So 2,300 full years, since sacrifices were accomplished twice a day, is reduced to about 1150 days. This is roughly 3.1 years, about the time Antiochus desecrated the temple, and the temple service was restored.

In keeping that God does give us accurate numbers, to the day, at present if these days are past the sacrifice should have used up 1260 days, from the start of the 70th week till the cross, that would leave slightly less than the same amount. Scripture doesn't give dates for Stephen's death but that should have been 1260 days as nothing else 'as bad' is mentioned. Would the temple have been considered to be cleansed at Pentecost, I believe that was before Stephen but was it 220 days before?



What did Antiochus do that was so bad? I’ll simply refer you to this website source:
If he was important in any part of Scripture he would have been mentioned, he isn't.



In conclusion, the Ram with two horns was the Medes and Persians, as indicated in chapter 8. The He goat which plunged after the Ram with two horns was Greece, who’s might King was Alexander the Great, who in turn was killed by his own followers, by which they gained power over four regions, thereby fulfilling the image of the four horns. And finally, from the loins of Seleucuc, gave birth to the little horn, which we know as Antiochus Epiphanes. It was he who desecrated the sanctuary, set up an image of Zeus in the temple, and sacrificed a pig on the altar of God.

Those 4 had to control Jerusalem itself, the prophecy concerns the city and the people, it doesn't matter what they controlled outside of that one city.

Wayne

TheForgiven
12-14-2007, 03:23 PM
Not okay.
Scripture would only cover those who had control over Jerusalem itself. I had a quick look for maps on that site but since it is quite large do you have something that would show each of those Empires showing that Jerusalem is in each and every one?
This is one of those areas that you either try to figure things out through our history book or you stick just with Scripture. If you went with the latter, only one of the horns (that came from Alex's kingdom) is covered. Concerning the 70 weeks, only the empire that was in control when the Messiah was born is important because 'things happen' that concern the city and the people. Rome is certainly identified by name as being in control of Jerusalem. Nothing is said about who was there between Alex and Rome. Ch:11 is not the brass, it is the iron and clay.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
Continuing, Daniel is told in verses 23 – 25 that another king would later rise during the latter days of the four kingdoms mentioned above. And out of this kingdom shall come forth an evil ruler who exalts himself, destroys and defiles the temple, kills many of the saints (Jews), and ruins the instructions of the temple service. This self exalting person is recognized as the 'little horn' which grows from one of the four kingdoms mentioned above. So who was this mysterious and fierce little horn?

It doesn't say that at all, they are conquered, nor does it say they came out of them. The iron and clay have two horns, the 1st must come before the second horn.
Da:2:39:
And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee,
and another third kingdom of brass,
which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Your kingdom alignment is off line here. Daniel chapter 7 was prior to Daniel chapter 8. This is two totally different time frames here.

The rest trickles down from there.

Joe

MHz
12-14-2007, 07:35 PM
Your kingdom alignment is off line here. Daniel chapter 7 was prior to Daniel chapter 8. This is two totally different time frames here.

Hi Joe,
Ummm, the 4 beasts of that chapter are for the same 4 kingdoms the statue covers.

This is Neb, the head of gold,
Da:7:4: The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

The silver, the 3 ribs are Belshazzar, Darius, and Cyrus
Da:7:5: And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

The brass, 4 wings are the 4 direction of heaven that Alex's kingdom went. The body was Alex, the 4 heads the 4 'horns that arise after the great horn is broken'.
Da:7:6: After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

The last beast is about the iron and clay, the 4th and last before Christ. Since most of that chapter is about the last, it is also the dragon and Beast from the Pit and the False Prophet of Revelation.

TheForgiven
12-15-2007, 08:58 AM
Hi Joe,
Ummm, the 4 beasts of that chapter are for the same 4 kingdoms the statue covers.

This is Neb, the head of gold,
Da:7:4: The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

The silver, the 3 ribs are Belshazzar, Darius, and Cyrus
Da:7:5: And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

The brass, 4 wings are the 4 direction of heaven that Alex's kingdom went. The body was Alex, the 4 heads the 4 'horns that arise after the great horn is broken'.
Da:7:6: After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

The last beast is about the iron and clay, the 4th and last before Christ. Since most of that chapter is about the last, it is also the dragon and Beast from the Pit and the False Prophet of Revelation.

I appreciate your inputs but your kingdoms are out of alignment even on the image. I previously explained to you the applicable kingdoms of the image and also why the elements (gold, silver, brass, and iron) apply to the kingdoms which existed during the Jewish Captivity.

Gold was clearly the Babylonian Empire. They were the ones who stole the arc of the covenant, made of gold. The silver arms and chest represented the Medes and Persians because of their use of silver, particularly in money. The brass thighs and hips represented Greece because of their high use and fashions of Brass, and lastly the Roman Empire divided into two stages, which was Rome prior to the Caesars representing their dominance of power, and Rome during the Caesars (feet and toes of iron and clay) after having conquered so many kingdoms, but because of racial boundaries, they were not a unified nation. And the final stone, which is Jesus and His kingdom, represents the Church which overtook all those kingdom and has never been defeated.

The image was explained in Daniel chapter 4. But Daniel is shown events that would occur not long after his death, specifically the times of the Medes and Persians, and who defeats them. This is explained in Daniel chapter 8.

You seem to believe that the "little Horn" on the He Goat represents the Roman Empire. That's false because Daniel seen a vision of a massive beast with 10 horns, and a little horn which subdues three. How can you tie the little horn of the goat with the little horn on Daniel's 4rth Beast. You see the error in that? He was not giving a dual image of a single "little horn" and that's incorrect to assume that.

Now starting over, the Ram with two great horns was clearly the Medes and Persians, as also how the Angel explains to Daniel. But a kingdom would desire revenge against its defeat, and that kingdom was Greece. The Medes primarily consisted of Greeks. When Artexerxes attempted to gain control over the entire Macedonian region, that sparked a huge war between the Spartans and the Persian Empire. We all know the tale of that story. After Greece (Medes) lost, another king would arise with fury and attack the Persian Empire. That's why the He Goat is described as running so fast that its feet doesn't touch the ground. This was Greece who's king was Alexander the Great. After Alexander was killed, his followers divided the kingdom into four, as represented by the cutting off of the large horn and four grew in its place. And from within one of its kingdoms, a little horn came into being and he would be the one who exalts himself over Jerusalem and attacks the saints of the Holy land, who also ended the sacrifices. The only place this fits in history, very perfectly I might add, is through Antiochus IV, who was part of Greece and who also claimed to be the son of Apollos (See also Revelation), who was another son of Zeus. This would make Alexander the Great his distant cousin, if I'm not mistaken. Though you and I both know that Zeus was not a real god, that was merely part of their religious myths.

Now the error I see you committing is you seem to believe the He goat and its horn are relative to the Roman Empire. I think you're doing this because you seem to believe that the little horn on the He Goat is the same little horn on the 4rth Beast. However it's not, because Daniel's 4rth Beast has 10 horns and not four. The He Goat has four horns, and a little one growing up in its place.

So lets summarize in short.

Daniel's Image:

1. Gold - Baylon
2. Silver - Medes and Persians
3. Brass - Greece
4. Iron - Rome prior to Christ
5. Iron / Clay - Rome during the first line of Caesars
6. Stone - Jesus and the Church

The Ram and He-Goat
1. Ram was Darius the Mede and Cyrus the Persian king
2. The He Goat was Greece
3. The Large Horn was Alexander
4. The Four horns are the four Kings who divided Alexanders kingdom
5. The Little Horn of the He Goat was Antiochus

Daniel chapter 8 was during the captivity during the times of the Medes and Persians, and the coming of Antiochus. Daniel chapter 9 would discuss the kingdom which comes AFTER the He Goat, and that is Daniel's 4rth Beast. THAT is where the rise of the Roman Empire begins. And historically speaking, who was it that defeated the Greeks? The Roman Empire.

You gotta keep them in line brother MHz, or you'll cause the entire vision to crumble from that point. All of these visions line up perfectly.

Joe

MHz
12-16-2007, 12:09 AM
I appreciate your inputs but your kingdoms are out of alignment even on the image. I previously explained to you the applicable kingdoms of the image and also why the elements (gold, silver, brass, and iron) apply to the kingdoms which existed during the Jewish Captivity.
Even though I have a lot to write to get caught up, I'll try to go slow enough so I can put in as much detail as I can. I'll try to show that God wanted to give us, the current readers, as much information about the last kingdom as possible.



Gold was clearly the Babylonian Empire. They were the ones who stole the arc of the covenant, made of gold.
The references are, Da:2:37-38, Da:4:1-37, Da:7:4

Neb was called 'my servant' by God in another book. In this book being the head of gold and being called king of kings defines what he had authority over,
Da:2:36: This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
Da:2:37: Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
Da:2:38: And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

Does that define what the KING of KINGS will claims as His.


The silver arms and chest represented the Medes and Persians because of their use of silver, particularly in money.
The references are, Da:2:39:, Da:5:1 - Da:6:31, Da:7:5
We probably pretty much agree on this one


The brass thighs and hips represented Greece because of their high use and fashions of Brass,
The references are, Da:2:39, Da:8:3-12, Da:8:20-23, Da:7:6
This is the last thing the brass does,
Da:8:12: And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
The explanation of the end of the brass is this verse,
Da:8:22: Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
Da:8:23: And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Vs:23 is the transition from the brass to the iron.

4 kings after Alex, 5 kings total for the brass. The little horn is 1 of those 4, whatever he accomplishes it is part of the brass.

Da:8:8: Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
Da:8:9: And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

The 70 weeks are in the brass, the Messiah had to be born before the iron. Once you take into account that the iron and clay only lasts 3 1/2 years then Christ had to come before that. He had to be at least 30 to offer Himself up as a sacrifice, He had to appoint some people to write and start spreading the Gospel to the Gentiles, which meant discarding His former people for a set time. He had to suffer the bruise to his heel, death caused by Satan's people, Satan entered Judas before he sold Him out, the temple leaders were called 'sons of Satan' (Joh:8:44)



and lastly the Roman Empire divided into two stages, which was Rome prior to the Caesars representing their dominance of power, and Rome during the Caesars (feet and toes of iron and clay) after having conquered so many kingdoms, but because of racial boundaries, they were not a unified nation.
The references are, Da:2:40-44, ,Da:7:7-8, Da:7:23-26, Da:8:23-25, Da:11:2 - Da:12:1

I'm more than willing to go on from here but can we settle if what is in Da:8:10-12 first. It either covers the coming and going of the Messiah or it doesn't. No sense getting into fallen angels and such just jet



You seem to believe that the "little Horn" on the He Goat represents the Roman Empire. That's false because Daniel seen a vision of a massive beast with 10 horns, and a little horn which subdues three. How can you tie the little horn of the goat with the little horn on Daniel's 4rth Beast. You see the error in that? He was not giving a dual image of a single "little horn" and that's incorrect to assume that.
I don't tie the two together, Rome is one of the 4 heads of the 3rd beast in
Da:7:6: After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
The dominion was also mentioned here
Da:2:39: And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.


This was Greece who's king was Alexander the Great. After Alexander was killed, his followers divided the kingdom into four, as represented by the cutting off of the large horn and four grew in its place. And from within one of its kingdoms, a little horn came into being and he would be the one who exalts himself over Jerusalem and attacks the saints of the Holy land, who also ended the sacrifices. The only place this fits in history, very perfectly I might add, is through Antiochus IV,
Was he the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th ruler, after Alex, to have control of Jerusalem?
A quick search turned up this link, Rome doesn't seem too far removed from Alex.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/jerutime.html



Now the error I see you committing is you seem to believe the He goat and its horn are relative to the Roman Empire. I think you're doing this because you seem to believe that the little horn on the He Goat is the same little horn on the 4rth Beast. However it's not, because Daniel's 4rth Beast has 10 horns and not four. The He Goat has four horns, and a little one growing up in its place.
The little horn of the 4th beast is most likely the False Prophet, a man who runs 3/10 kingdoms the Beast sets up with 10 men, iron and clay. The reason I don't want to cover this too much is that all the verses from Revelation have to also be taken into account, and progress really slows down as it isn't something that can be grasped on the first go around, a least it wasn't for me.
The horns for the brass are a great horn and 4 smaller ones after that, the ones the verses are about is one of those 4 smaller ones. Of those 4 the one described is said to be 'quite powerful' and lasting for an extended period of time.
I took a quick look at the maps of those kingdoms between Alex and Rome and they are indeed smaller than either Alex or Rome.



So lets summarize in short.

Daniel's Image:

1. Gold - Baylon
2. Silver - Medes and Persians
3. Brass - Greece
4. Iron - Rome prior to Christ
5. Iron / Clay - Rome during the first line of Caesars
6. Stone - Jesus and the Church

The Ram and He-Goat
1. Ram was Darius the Mede and Cyrus the Persian king
2. The He Goat was Greece
3. The Large Horn was Alexander
4. The Four horns are the four Kings who divided Alexanders kingdom
5. The Little Horn of the He Goat was Antiochus

Daniel chapter 8 was during the captivity during the times of the Medes and Persians, and the coming of Antiochus. Daniel chapter 9 would discuss the kingdom which comes AFTER the He Goat, and that is Daniel's 4rth Beast. THAT is where the rise of the Roman Empire begins. And historically speaking, who was it that defeated the Greeks? The Roman Empire.

After the goat is at least 1 of the 4 horns that are still in the brass. The 4th beast has nothing to do with the arrival of the Messiah, the 4th beast takes over from the brass and at the end of that it is Christ ruling.

Da:11:2:
And now will I shew thee the truth.
Behold,
there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia;
and the fourth shall be far richer than they all:
and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

The 4th would be even greater than the gold, silver, and brass. Grecia would include all 4 horns that replace the great horn. The 4th king, well, stir up doesn't mean a war, it could be whatever the 10 men who pledge themselves to the Beast from the Pit. If it included protection, food, and money then our current political boundaries mean nothing.

After all Scripture was written (before 100AD)it doesn't matter much who has control, it will matter who has control when Satan tries to show the world that he is God, welcome to the 4th kingdom. If the armies of 10 nations gathered in Israel today could they cause more damage than the Romans did?

That is why everybody that is going around saying the end is near are always wrong and always will be, it can't be near until the brass is finished. When the iron starts then you can say the end is near.

Later Joe,

Wayne

TheForgiven
12-16-2007, 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
The brass thighs and hips represented Greece because of their high use and fashions of Brass,

The references are, Da:2:39, Da:8:3-12, Da:8:20-23, Da:7:6
This is the last thing the brass does,
Da:8:12: And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
The explanation of the end of the brass is this verse,
Da:8:22: Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
Da:8:23: And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Vs:23 is the transition from the brass to the iron.

4 kings after Alex, 5 kings total for the brass. The little horn is 1 of those 4, whatever he accomplishes it is part of the brass.

Da:8:8: Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
Da:8:9: And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.


The 70 weeks are in the brass, the Messiah had to be born before the iron. Once you take into account that the iron and clay only lasts 3 1/2 years then Christ had to come before that. He had to be at least 30 to offer Himself up as a sacrifice, He had to appoint some people to write and start spreading the Gospel to the Gentiles, which meant discarding His former people for a set time. He had to suffer the bruise to his heel, death caused by Satan's people, Satan entered Judas before he sold Him out, the temple leaders were called 'sons of Satan' (Joh:8:44)


I'll just start again right here because we seem to agree up until Alexander the Great. Here's where I have a problem with your interpretation. Alexander ruled until about 356 B.C. The Angel, as you correctly quote, tells John that four kings would replace him. Historically speaking, this happened. But for some odd reason, you want to skip almost 300 years from Alexanders rule until Christ. But that leaves out the four kings which ruled in Alexanders place. I fail to see how you arrive at this. Don't you know you're committing exegetic suicide by doing this? You remain in line from the head of gold until the Brass thighs, but then jump directly into the Iron. The Goad is Biblically and historically Greece, and you must remain in that context. The Iron has nothing to do with the goat. Subsequently, the Iron in later years after Antiochus, is was over-took Greece, when compared to Daniel's image.

Greece was ruled by Alexander the Great, and he was from Macedonia; an ancient city of Greece. After his death, four kings divided his kingdom into four regions. And these rulers were:

1. Ptolemy
2. Seleucus
3. Cassander
4. Lysimachus

In 1851, a British historian Humphrey Prideaux recorded the same thing in a book he published regarding the History of Greece, and this remains in nearly all the World History Books. How can you deny this?

Now from their rule, a little horn comes to power and does all the abominations to the temple which was rebuilt during Ezra and Nehemiah, and the ONLY person that did this was Antiochus Epiphanes. I see no logical or historical relevance in your rejection of the above, although I sort of understand your reasonings for skipping history like this. You seem to want to skip from 356 B.C. all the way to 30 A.D. (or 32 A.D.) and say that the Roman Empire is what cut off the large horn of the He goat and thus gave birth for four rulers, and then a fifth. But again, that's suicide because this contradicts Daniel's 4rth Beast which is totally different than the He goat.

Then I believe you want to push Daniel's 4rth Beast thousands of years into his future, and this prophesy has not yet been fulfilled in our day. Again, that's shear suicide to suggest that. Not only does that do an injustice to the prophet Daniel and His people, but you're also doing an injustice to the New Testament which preached of the Messiah. For the Messiah came at the 69th week, yet you say that Daniel's He goat came during that time frame, and yet the 4rth Beast (if I understand you correctly) hasn't even come yet; you're still awaiting this. :nono: That won't work because you're usurping an un-scriptural gap in the text and is a violation of the scriptures.

Sorry but I must reject this notion all together. There's no need to cover the rest of your post because it crumbles at this point.

But I do appreciate your attempt.

Joe

MHz
12-16-2007, 02:55 PM
I'll just start again right here because we seem to agree up until Alexander the Great. Here's where I have a problem with your interpretation. Alexander ruled until about 356 B.C. The Angel, as you correctly quote, tells John that four kings would replace him. Historically speaking, this happened. But for some odd reason, you want to skip almost 300 years from Alexanders rule until Christ.
Counting the kings you listed certainly come up well short of 63BC when Rome took control.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysimachus
"Domestic troubles embittered the last years of Lysimachus’s life. Amastris had been murdered by her two sons; Lysimachus treacherously put them to death. On his return Arsinoe asked the gift of Heraclea, and he granted her request, though he had promised to free the city. In 284 BCE Arsinoe, desirous of gaining the succession for her sons in preference to Agathocles (the eldest son of Lysimachus), intrigued against him with the help of her brother Ptolemy Keraunos; they accused him of conspiring with Seleucus to seize the throne, and he was put to death."

The iron should have started in 283BC. At the above rate of change there should be 11 more kings before 60BC.



Greece was ruled by Alexander the Great, and he was from Macedonia; an ancient city of Greece. After his death, four kings divided his kingdom into four regions. And these rulers were:

1. Ptolemy
2. Seleucus
3. Cassander
4. Lysimachus

In 1851, a British historian Humphrey Prideaux recorded the same thing in a book he published regarding the History of Greece, and this remains in nearly all the World History Books. How can you deny this?

"Seleucus joined him in 301 BCE, and at the battle of Ipsus Antigonus was defeated and slain. His dominions were divided among the victors. Lysimachus share was Lydia, Ionia, Phrygia and the north coast of Asia Minor.[2]"

None of those places include Jerusalem.



Now from their rule, a little horn comes to power and does all the abominations to the temple which was rebuilt during Ezra and Nehemiah, and the ONLY person that did this was Antiochus Epiphanes. I see no logical or historical relevance in your rejection of the above, although I sort of understand your reasonings for skipping history like this.
Scripture didn't indicate there wouldn't be a bit of trouble along the way
Da:9:25:
Know therefore and understand,
that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks,
and threescore and two weeks:
the street shall be built again,
and the wall,
even in troublous times.



You seem to want to skip from 356 B.C. all the way to 30 A.D. (or 32 A.D.) and say that the Roman Empire is what cut off the large horn of the He goat and thus gave birth for four rulers, and then a fifth. But again, that's suicide because this contradicts Daniel's 4rth Beast which is totally different than the He goat.

No Joe, I'm saying that the great horn was Alex, within the next 4 rulers the Messiah was born. How many of these things did not happen between Rome gaining control and Rome losing control,
Da:8:9:
And out of one of them came forth a little horn,
which waxed exceeding great,
toward the south,
and toward the east,
and toward the pleasant land.
Da:8:10:
And it waxed great,
even to the host of heaven;
and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground,
and stamped upon them.
Da:8:11:
Yea,
he magnified himself even to the prince of the host,
and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away,
and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Da:8:12:
And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression,
and it cast down the truth to the ground;
and it practised,
and prospered.



(if I understand you correctly)
You don't, there are other approaches to this. Who are the 6 kings in this verse,
Re:17:10: And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.


Later Joe,

Wayne

TheForgiven
12-16-2007, 07:42 PM
No Joe, I'm saying that the great horn was Alex, within the next 4 rulers the Messiah was born. How many of these things did not happen between Rome gaining control and Rome losing control,

Do you mean the large horn on the He Goat? If so, then that's correct. Alexander the Great was the Large horn of the He Goat that gained control over the Persian Empire, combined with his already controlled Macedonia (Medes).

But after Alexanders death, four kings would parcel out his kingdom, due to greed for power, wealth and riches. Many years later, this kingdom would eventually become the Roman Empire, governed by two regions. The Roman Empire in her beginning stages gained control over vast territories. But before then, the little horn of the He Goat, born from one of the cities of the four horns of the He Goat would destroy Jerusalem. This was clearly Antiochus IV, as also the Jews wrote about.

After the reign of Antiochus, the Roman Empire was born. But the Roman Empire did not have Emperors as we're accustomed to seeing. Julius Caesar was the first Dictator of Rome, though the Jews considered him the first Emperor.

Caesar Augustus was the first official Emperor of Rome, and it was around that time frame that the Messiah (Jesus) was born. When Christ is older, He sets up His kingdom [during the days of these kings] which shall never be destroyed.

You asked, "Who were the five that had fallen, and one is...." in Revelation. That's John's dragon which is similar to Daniel's 4rth Beast. Though Daniel spoke strictly from a Roman perspective, and John's Beast was from a Roman / Jewish perspective.

John says that the heads are five kings, of which five had fallen. Futurist gravely error because they count the heads as Kingdoms. Though in a sense that is correct. But John wasn't told that five kingdoms had fallen, for only the "KINGS" had fallen; the kingdom continued to exist, but with different kings as each successor gained the throne.

The Five kings who fell were the first five Emperors of Rome. Though some differ on who the starting king was. I believe Augustus was number one, though some believe Julius was number one simply because they want to make Nero the 6th King, when he was actually the 5th king; the king with the head wound, but would miraculously be healed.

Be very careful in trying to combined all of Daniel's animal images. They do to an extent, but not all of them. The Ram with two horns was the Medes and Persians. These are linked together with Daniel's image of silver arms and chest. The He Goat was Greece, who also represented the Brass thigh and hips, and the huge single horn was Alexander the Great, king of Greece.

The Four horns were Greece parceled out after Alexanders death, and it would be they who gives birth to the birth of the He Goat's little horn, and this was Antiuchus. Then comes the birth of the Roman Empire and the birth of the Messiah.

Keep it simple brother, and most importantly, keep the order of kingdoms successively.

Joe

MHz
12-21-2007, 11:10 AM
Hi Joe,


But after Alexanders death, four kings would parcel out his kingdom, due to greed for power, wealth and riches. Many years later, this kingdom would eventually become the Roman Empire, governed by two regions. The Roman Empire in her beginning stages gained control over vast territories. But before then, the little horn of the He Goat, born from one of the cities of the four horns of the He Goat would destroy Jerusalem. This was clearly Antiochus IV, as also the Jews wrote about.
The ram represents two successive people that held rule over the people and the city. The 4 horns after Alex's kingdom would all have control over Jerusalem or they just don't count, control can only be back-to-back. Rome was a kingdom that ruled over the city and the people, the name of their ruler is given in the NT.



After the reign of Antiochus, the Roman Empire was born. But the Roman Empire did not have Emperors as we're accustomed to seeing. Julius Caesar was the first Dictator of Rome, though the Jews considered him the first Emperor.

Rome didn't control the Jerusalem until 60's BC, you are missing several hundred years.



Caesar Augustus was the first official Emperor of Rome, and it was around that time frame that the Messiah (Jesus) was born. When Christ is older, He sets up His kingdom [during the days of these kings] which shall never be destroyed.
And the 2nd was during His ministry, death, resurrection, etc.
http://www.roman-emperors.org/galba.htm#Note%202



You asked, "Who were the five that had fallen, and one is...." in Revelation. That's John's dragon which is similar to Daniel's 4rth Beast. Though Daniel spoke strictly from a Roman perspective, and John's Beast was from a Roman / Jewish perspective.
Daniels 4th beast is all 3 of the ones sent to the lake in Revelation.



John says that the heads are five kings, of which five had fallen. Futurist gravely error because they count the heads as Kingdoms. Though in a sense that is correct. But John wasn't told that five kingdoms had fallen, for only the "KINGS" had fallen; the kingdom continued to exist, but with different kings as each successor gained the throne.
So all in all every ruler of Rome would count. I stopped counting at 50.




The Five kings who fell were the first five Emperors of Rome. Though some differ on who the starting king was. I believe Augustus was number one, though some believe Julius was number one simply because they want to make Nero the 6th King, when he was actually the 5th king; the king with the head wound, but would miraculously be healed.
Do you think there are any fallen angels in chains today?



Be very careful in trying to combined all of Daniel's animal images. They do to an extent, but not all of them. The Ram with two horns was the Medes and Persians. These are linked together with Daniel's image of silver arms and chest. The He Goat was Greece, who also represented the Brass thigh and hips, and the huge single horn was Alexander the Great, king of Greece.

The Four horns were Greece parceled out after Alexanders death, and it would be they who gives birth to the birth of the He Goat's little horn, and this was Antiuchus. Then comes the birth of the Roman Empire and the birth of the Messiah.
How many years between your little horn and Jesus's birth?



Keep it simple brother, and most importantly, keep the order of kingdoms successively.
I forget who you have as the 4 heads of the leopard of Da:7

Wayne

gilgal
12-21-2007, 12:01 PM
thanks for your posts Forgiven, MHZ and others. One of the things about prophecy study is that throughout history many interpretations have been written down and this section of the forum is meant to test everything.

There are disagreements but only until the soundness interpretations of prophecy come to the surface when no one can disagree anymore.

A few things came to my mind:
Four Winds ( What is the significance of the one in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8? )

Jeremiah 49:36
And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.

Ezekiel 37:9
Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

Daniel 7:2
Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

Daniel 8:8
Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Daniel 11:4
And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

Zechariah 2:6
Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Revelation 7:1
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

TheForgiven
12-23-2007, 06:08 PM
The ram represents two successive people that held rule over the people and the city. The 4 horns after Alex's kingdom would all have control over Jerusalem or they just don't count, control can only be back-to-back. Rome was a kingdom that ruled over the city and the people, the name of their ruler is given in the NT.

Eeeek! The RAM represents the Medes and Persians as the scripture itself testifies. The He Goat is the "Ticked-off" nation (Greece) that attacks the Ram (Persians) for trying to over-take it. Alexander is the Large horn that gave power to the He Goat. After Alexander dies, four kings arise in Greece and that gives birth to the little horn, who was Antiochus. After Antiochus, the four kingdoms were overcome by the rising Roman Empire, which is Daniel's 4rth Beast. I often think of the battle of Carthage, which was the decline of the kingdom of Greece. Rome comes to power and is ruled from East to West. Julius Caesar is declared the first Dictator of Rome and that gives rise to the kings of Rome. Jesus came during this time and set-up His kingdom, which we call the Church; that is to say, those called out to live separately. Christ is the Stone which dashed the prior kingdoms to pieces, giving birth to the Church. And since that time, the Church is the only Kingdom which has surpassed 2000 years and counting, without a single defeat.

Gotta love it! :thumb:

Case solved, mystery completed...I have no clue what you are waiting for. It appears you're not satisfied with the Church, and the living waters are not good enough for you my friend. I get the feeling that you want a physical kingdom, just like the Jews did, and you want to force Christ to sit upon a Throne made of rock and stone, so you can purchase an airplane ticket once a year and see the king. Test yourself friend. Don't you know that Christ is in you? It takes a lot more faith that you can imagine to worship a King you can't see. But in the heavens, after you've departed this earthly place, you will see the King. And it sounds like you want to bring Christ down from His heavenly throne and set-up an earthly kingdom. Truth is, He already has, but you're rejecting it.

Joe

alec cotton
12-26-2007, 12:33 PM
If I am wrong ,Please show me where I am wrong. From the abomination of desolation(70A.D) there will be 2,300 days(years) then the sanctuary will be cleansed. I interpret that statement thus: Jesus the high priest of our profession went into the bosom of the father (the Holy of Holies) with blood. The courtyard (the temple?. Israel?) was to be deserted. When he returns the work is complete .That is his second coming . that is not when he comes with clouds and every eye shal see him and those who pierced him because the rest of the dead lived not. There is an unspecified period and then he comes with clouds. That's all right ,but what I can't make out is Daniel 12:11-12. from the abomination-----there shall be 1290 days(years?) Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the 3135 days(years?).These can't be consecuttive because ther is no room in the prophecy for them.If they are concurrent;Who were they meant to be?. At first I thought it was the lifespan of Huss but it doesn't fit. Pondering. Alec

Richard Amiel McGough
12-26-2007, 05:07 PM
Hi Alec!

Since this is your first post, let me take this opportunity to say "Welcome to our forum!"

:welcome:


If I am wrong ,Please show me where I am wrong. From the abomination of desolation(70A.D) there will be 2,300 days(years) then the sanctuary will be cleansed. I interpret that statement thus: Jesus the high priest of our profession went into the bosom of the father (the Holy of Holies) with blood. The courtyard (the temple?. Israel?) was to be deserted. When he returns the work is complete .That is his second coming . that is not when he comes with clouds and every eye shal see him and those who pierced him because the rest of the dead lived not. There is an unspecified period and then he comes with clouds. That's all right ,but what I can't make out is Daniel 12:11-12. from the abomination-----there shall be 1290 days(years?) Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the 3135 days(years?).These can't be consecuttive because ther is no room in the prophecy for them.If they are concurrent;Who were they meant to be?. At first I thought it was the lifespan of Huss but it doesn't fit. Pondering. Alec
Well, I think we'll probably have to discuss of few of the assumptions that went into the question before we can make much progress on the question itself.

We agree that the Abomination of Desolation that Christ predicted happened in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple. That is good. :thumb:

But is that the same Abomination of Desolation in Daniel 8? That is not so clear. Many folks interpret Dan 8:13 as speaking of Antiochus Epiphane and the AOD he set up in 167 BC. In that case, the 2300 days was the amount of time before the first Hanukkah.

But on the other hand, the "little horn" correlates very strongly with Rome that destroyed Jerusalem. I discuss this in the second post in this thread. I just happened to notice that this also fits with the command for Daniel to "shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days." (v 8:26) - since the same command was given at the end of his book wich was fulfilled in 70 AD.

I am not certain how to interpret the 2300 "evening morning" - the unusual description may mean that 2300/2 = 1150 days are meant. I don't think the day/year principle applies here.

Richard

TheForgiven
12-26-2007, 06:20 PM
If I am wrong ,Please show me where I am wrong. From the abomination of desolation(70A.D) there will be 2,300 days(years) then the sanctuary will be cleansed. I interpret that statement thus: Jesus the high priest of our profession went into the bosom of the father (the Holy of Holies) with blood. The courtyard (the temple?. Israel?) was to be deserted. When he returns the work is complete .That is his second coming . that is not when he comes with clouds and every eye shal see him and those who pierced him because the rest of the dead lived not. There is an unspecified period and then he comes with clouds. That's all right ,but what I can't make out is Daniel 12:11-12. from the abomination-----there shall be 1290 days(years?) Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the 3135 days(years?).These can't be consecuttive because ther is no room in the prophecy for them.If they are concurrent;Who were they meant to be?. At first I thought it was the lifespan of Huss but it doesn't fit. Pondering. Ale

Hello Alec Cotton, and welcome to this forum. And sorry all, for my not posting anything the past few days. I had to regather my thoughts from the many topics we've been discussing. It seems I opened more cans of worm than needed. :lol: I hate it when that happens.

Okay Alec, Richard is right. We know that the Lord's discussion on Jerusalem's fate came to pass in 70 AD. Where many have a problem with Daniel chapter 8 is trying to fit the pieces together.

MHz and I discussed Daniel chapter 7, which wasn't about the Olive Discourse at all. That was about the destruction and abomination of the temple caused by Antiochus Epiphanes. However, Daniel chapter 8 involves a different time-frame, which is applied solely to 70 AD. In Daniel chapter 7, there's mention of a little horn which grows from the male (He) Goat kingdom. The He Goat is a picture of Greece, as shown by the Angel to Daniel.

Daniel 8:21
And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king.

However, Daniel chapter 8 was primarily about the fall of the He Goat and the rise of another kingdom, which we know is the Roman Empire. It's from the Roman Empire that the 4rth Beast, mentioned in the earlier chapters of Daniel, brings forth a little horn, which subdues three before it. This was probably Vespasian, who became Emperor after three were subdued in a Roman civil war. Subsequently, Vespasian was in charge of ending the Jewish Revolt, as ordered by Nero Caesar. But when Nero committed suicide, Vespasian temporarily abandoned the war and sought to claim the throne. One year after Nero's death, Vespasian claims the throne by flattering the Senate. Once becoming Emperor, he sent his two sons, Titus and Domitian, to finish the war and bring it to an end. This resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Now astonishingly to me, what Titus did was nearly the exact repeat of what Antiochus did. That's why I think there's some great significance to their works.

Antiochus was known for committing an abomination by entering into the Holy of Hollies (A Gentile mind you), tearing down the alter of God, and converting it into an alter of Zeus. This is key because Zeus was the Greek god of Jupiter. Antiochus also claimed that he was a grandson of Zeus, which would make him a cousin to Alexander the Great. And historically speaking, Alexander claimed he was the direct son of Zeus. Among other things Antiochus did, he forbid the Jews to practice circumcision, offered a pig on the alter in honor of Zeus, and stole the gold within the temple. Although Titus did not offer a pig on the alter because the alter was destroyed in the fire, but he did offer a pig next to one of the pillars which was left in ruins of the temple.

Therefore, I find these events to be so strikingly similar that it's impossible for me to ignore it. Futurist, on the other hand, refuse to acknowledge any form of history accept the death of Jesus. They ignore anything else because they don't want the public to know the falsehood of their ideas. Sadly, most of these ideas did not originate from them. I believe the first Futurist idea came from a man named Papias, who claimed he was a learner of John the Apostle and told some rather strange tales. We don't have many of his writings, but a fragment of his writing contains a story of the death of Judas. According to his teaching, Judas was killed because his stomach swelled so huge that a nearby chariot squashed him as it rode by. But scripture affirms that Judas hung himself from sadness in betraying the Lord. But Papias taught verbal tales of how a future holds to a literal 1000 year personal rein of Jesus, where fruits will multiply 1000 upon 1000's, and 10 thousand times 10 thousands. Not understanding these were figures for the fruits of righteousness within the Kingdom of God, he took that to be literal, as if the Kingdom is about fruits and apples. Other later fathers, such as Iranaeus, repeated his mistake. It's obviouse from his fragments that others questions Papias about his ideas, because in the first part of his letter, he claims that he didn't arrive at his understanding from the scriptures, but from verbal communication that he remembered since childhood. In short, he had no scriptural support to back up his belief.

Okay, I skewed a bit....sorry about that. In conclusion, Daniel chapter 7 was about the coming Antiochus abomination and the fall of Greece, and chapter's 8 to the end was about the rise of the Roman Empire and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Joe

TheForgiven
12-29-2007, 09:13 PM
After a great deal of research and study of Daniel’s vision, I will try my best to provide you with a summarized work of the visions as seen by Daniel. I will not start from the first chapter to the last, but instead I will pick up with Daniel chapter 11. My reason for doing this is Daniel chapters 8,9 and 10 all refer to the same kingdoms expressed by the following images:

1. Ram with Two horns – Mede and Persian Kings
2. Male goat – Greece – first King is Phillip II of Macedonia
a. Large horn – Alexander the Great (Son of Phillip II)
b. Four horns – Syria, Egypt, Turkey (Asia Minor) and Greece itself
c. Little Horn – Saving this for last….(mystery man)

I will begin with chapter 11, as this involves the detailed explanation of the vision in day’s future from Daniel’s time as pertained to the visions he recorded in the previous chapters; all of these are connected. Hopefully, this will simplify as much as possible the explanations leading up to the abomination and desolation of Jerusalem.

Before I begin, keep one thing in mind. Daniel was concerned about one thing alone. And that was how long was the captivity going to last. Remember to keep this in your mind as we study this awesome book together.
Beginning with chapter 11, verse 1, we read that the Angel is explaining to Daniel that he (The angel) was being supportive of Darius the Mede. This shows that chapter 11 is a further explanation of Daniel chapter 9, verse 1. [To save space, please review the verses in your Bibles] Even though the angel starts with supporting Darius the Mede, the vision was seen during the reign of Cyrus, as indicated in chapter 10, verse 1. My point, in order to save space, is to show why I decided to being with chapter 11, for this is where the 'meat' of the vision is given. The angel previously explained certain portions of the vision in chapters 8,9, and 10, but Daniel was still somewhat confused, leading to his further confusion in trying to understand Jeremiah’s prophesy of Jerusalem’s 70 years of captivity; he was trying to find the answers. Exhausting his research, he humbles himself one final time and he then receives all the answers to unanswered questions of chapters 8, 9, and 10. Thus, we begin with chapter 11.

THE VISIONS EXPLAINED

In chapter 11, verse 2, Daniel is told that three kings would arise from Persia, and then a fourth king who arise who would obtain great wealth and power of the Persian Empire. These were:

1. Cambyses in 529 B.C.
2. Pseudo-Smerdis in 527 B.C.
3. Darius Hystaspis in 521 B.C.
4. Xerxes – 485-456 B.X (Very wealthy and gained much power)

Verse 2 reads, 'And he [the 4rth king of Persia] shall become strong through his riches, and he shall stir up all against the kingdom of Greece…..' This was none other that Xerxes, who caused all the nations of the Persian Empire to attack Greece. Everyone knows the tale of the '300' Spartans who fought with bravery to the death, against the mighty King of Xerxes. However, the battle of Samalis (Naval Battle which pushed Xerxes and his army back to Persia) began to weaken the Persian Empire. Xerxes lost about 200 ships in this major battle, and thus weakened his military. This weakness made the Persian Empire a problem no longer difficult to deal with. And guess who would come to power to attack the Persian Empire at its weakest time? You got it! Greece!

Phillip II was the first king of Greece, and it was he who would begin advancing Greece against the Persian Empire. However, it was his son who would later build Greece into the monument it had become. Greece is recognized as the 'male goat' whose fury and wrath was so fast and powerful, that the Ram [Medes and Persians] would not stand a chance. As the male goat attacked the Persian Empire, it wouldn’t be the first king of Greece which quickly destroys the Persians, but the large horn on its head, who would be the legionary king of all Greece. This was none other than Alexander the Great. Alexander was furious against the Persians. His determination to defeat the Persians and conquer all nations and unite all under one nation, enabled this quickly expanding Empire to conquer as far east as Ethiopia. However, the battle of Ethiopia cost his aging army more than he could afford. So in the prime of his rule, in 331 B.C., during a journey home with his aged soldiers, he became sick to the point of death. The Large Horn of the male goat had been broken off. This resulted in a quadruple division of his vast Empire.

Chapter 4 then explains how his Kingdom would be divided into four kingdoms. These were:

1. Syria (To the North) – Seleucus
2. Egypt (South) – Ptolemy II
3. Asia Minor (Turkey / East) – Lysumachus
4. Greece (West) – Cassander

These four kingdoms (and their kings) represented the four horns replacing the large horn previously broken off. However, as history continues, these four rulers would not get along very well, with each trying to gain control over the other. Seleucus, ruler of Syria, would later be ruled by Seleucus II, who in turn had two sons [Seleucus II and Antiochus III] and also Antiochus II.
In an attempt to make peace, an alliance was sought between Ptolemy of Egypt and Antiochus II of Syria. Antiochus II was married to a woman named Laodice, but Ptolemy convinced Antiochus II to set aside his wife and marry his daughter, Bernice. This hope was to some how make peace and end the civil wars.


6 And at the end of some years they shall join forces, for the daughter of the king of the South shall go to the king of the North to make an agreement; but she shall not retain the power of her authority, and neither he nor his authority shall stand; but she shall be given up, with those who brought her, and with him who begot her, and with him who strengthened her in those times.

Later, Ptolemy dies and Antiochus II returns to his former wife, Laodice. However, she seeks to avenge herself upon her adulterous husband and had him slain. She then asked for Bernice and her son to live with her, where Laodice has them killed as well. In verse 7, we read:


7 But from a branch of her roots one shall arise in his place, who shall come with an army, enter the fortress of the king of the North, and deal with them and prevail

Ptolemy II was replaced by Ptolemy III. Thus, 'A Branch from her (Laodice) roots’ was made king of the South, or Egypt. This Egyptian king attacks the king of the north (Antiochus III) and steals all the gold and plunders the city of Syria. All the gods were stolen and returned to Egypt. Thus we read in verse 8:


8 And he shall also carry their gods captive to Egypt, with their princes and their precious articles of silver and gold; and he shall continue more years than the king of the North.

Ptolemy III stole about 2,500 idols from Syria, as well as 40,000 talents of gold, and returned this to Egypt.

So far, we've learned what happened to the Mede and Persian Empires, and how Greece came to power. We also learned that Greece had a great King, who was killed, resulting in a division into four kingdoms. This division was not loyal to each other and would result in massive wars as each sought power from the other. This line of the story appears more like a sequel to a soap opera or something. Love, deception, and lies all within the same family lines as they thirst for power and wealth.

I'll pick up again with verse 10 in chapter 11 on my next post. We will discuss further the deceptions and vices against each other involved with Greece. Our conclusion will lead us towards the "Mystery Man", otherwise known as the little horn of the male goat. We will then get into the rise of the Roman Empire, and how this is connected to Daniel's 4rth Beast, and the rise of it's little horn.

Joe

gilgal
12-30-2007, 12:51 AM
Thanks TheForgiven!

TheForgiven
12-30-2007, 08:09 PM
We’re covering Daniel chapter 11 which speaks of the four divisions of Greece after Alexander’s death. This involved four areas as noted in my previous post. But the remainder of chapter 11 seems to involve to of these four territories, the North (Syria) and the South (Egypt). This era involved the succession of kings which shared a joint-reign of either Syria or Egypt. It’s very confusing to list in detail every single event which took place between the north and south, so to be brief, let me just list the kings involved and I’ll then explain the verses of chapter 11, picking up with verse 10. For easier viewing of each of the kings attributed to verse 10, review the chart.

Ptolemy III was the “branch from the roots of Laodice” who stole the gold and gods from Syria, the kingdom of the North. Verse 9 then explains how the North would retaliate against Syria (The South) and verse 10 explains how these kings kept fight back. Thus we read:


9 “Also the king of the North shall come to the kingdom of the king of the South, but shall return to his own land. 10 However his sons shall stir up strife, and assemble a multitude of great forces; and one shall certainly come and overwhelm and pass through; then he shall return to his fortress and stir up strife.

Seleucus II reigned in Syria from 246-227BC and conducted an unsuccessful expedition against Egypt. His sons, Seleucus III and Antiochus III the Great (224-187), jointly continued their father's campaign against Egypt. However, Seleucus came to an end, but Antiochus III continued to make great progression against the South. He defeated the Egyptians at Sidon and was able to penetrate as far south as to attack the Egyptian "fortress" at Gaza.
Ptolemy III became an embittered Egyptian king, who would return to his own land and muster 73,000 men and 73 elephants. However the army of Antiochus III was even greater, with 72,000 infantry, 6,000 horsemen and 102 elephants, giving Antiochus III the advantage. This advantage, however, worked against an overconfident Antiochus III, who lost to the Egyptian king; Ptolemy III was victorious. [please read verses 9 – 13]

Do you see what I mean so far? Back and forth, back and forth, victory and loss, victory and loss! You’re probably wondering how this fits in with Jerusalem? Keep in mind, who was right smack dab in the middle of all this fighting? You got it! Jerusalem, which had become a battle ground many times during the fighting between the North (Egypt) and the South (Syria).

This takes us to verses 14 - 16, because now the Jews get involved:


14 “Now in those times many shall rise up against the king of the South. Also, violent men of your people shall exalt themselves in fulfillment of the vision, but they shall fall. 15 So the king of the North shall come and build a siege mound, and take a fortified city; and the forces of the South shall not withstand him. Even his choice troops shall have no strength to resist. 16 But he who comes against him shall do according to his own will, and no one shall stand against him. He shall stand in the Glorious Land with destruction in his power.

Antiochus III the Great raised a greater army after his loss against Ptolemy, with better equipment, attained some of the success of his first efforts, primarily because the Ptolemy had become a bit old and worn out, resulting in more victories for Antiochus III. Eventually, Ptolemy dies, and after his death various uprisings materially weakened the Egyptian power and broke it by internal distention. This resulted in Hebrew insurgents, being led by a man named Tobias, "but they shall fall", bringing upon themselves the defeat prophesied by Daniel 8 and 9. Thus verse 14 is fulfilled up to this point.

In Daniel 11:15-16 we read how Antiochus drove the Egyptians back to Sidon, defeating "the most fortified city". It was the uprising of the Jews under Tobias that led Antiochus to venture into the "glorious land". We thus completed verse 16.

Antiochus III offers freedom to the Jews from Egypt. He released them from all taxes for three years, and afterwards from one third of the taxes. He also sent a large sum of money for the service of the Temple, and released the elders, priests, scribes and singing men from all taxes for the future. Thus "the glorious land" came under his complete control ("which by his hand shall be consumed"). Little did the Hebrews know was that this would eventually work against them. We next come to verse 17:


17 “He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do. And he shall give him the daughter of women to destroy it; but she shall not stand with him, or be for him. 18 After this he shall turn his face to the coastlands, and shall take many. But a ruler shall bring the reproach against them to an end; and with the reproach removed, he shall turn back on him. 19 Then he shall turn his face toward the fortress of his own land; but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found.

Antiochus conceived a plan whereby he would overtake all of Egypt. In an effort to make peace, Antiochus gave his daughter Cleopatra in marriage to Ptolemy Epiphanes with the intent of gaining an advantage over the king of Egypt, trusting she would be her father's ally rather than her husband's friend, but she refused to be a tool in her father's hands. He then fulfills verse 18, whereby Antiochus next made an expedition to gain control of the coastal cities of Asia Minor and the Greek islands; the other two of the four regions of Greece. However, a new Empire was beginning to rise, though not yet in full strength. Antiochus III realized this threat, and decided to take action and attempt to break the power of Rome. In 196BC he had a foothold in Thrace which called forth the active resistance of Rome, leading to the Battle of Magnesia (190BC) against a Roman leader named Lucius Scipio, who administered such a sound defeat, thereby ending the "reproach" or presumptuous boastings of Antiochus III. Scipio achieved his victory without repaying Antiochus with like boasting -- "without his own reproach".
In his humiliation, Antiochus turned to "the fort of his own land" where no trouble or defeat could befall him. He became so disheartened eventually leading to his end, thus he "shall stumble and fall and be found no more", thereby completing verse 19.

Seleucus IV (187 – 176 BC) becomes the next king of Syria, who replaced Antiochus III. Seleucus was forced to pay Rome about 1,000 talents in taxes; the tab of course being forced upon the Jews. This would actually turn out to be Israel’s blessing, as would be explained in verse 20. For causing even more trouble for Seleucus himself, was a man who would seek after his throne, and also desire to make an alliance with Rome. This brings us to verses 20-21:


20 “There shall arise in his place one who imposes taxes on the glorious kingdom; but within a few days he shall be destroyed, but not in anger or in battle. 21 And in his place shall arise a vile person, to whom they will not give the honor of royalty; but he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue.

This person would become Israel’s fortune, as well as misfortunate. Fortunate in that this would bring about the end of Seleucus, but misfortunate on the disasters they were about to endure. A disaster leading to the destruction of their temple, as well as the desecration of their Jewish creeds and practices.

We now come to the Mystery Man as promised. This man would become the “little horn” of the male goat, being Greece’s last known king of power. This man would make an alliance with Rome, have Seleucus put to death, and he would become the successor of the throne by flattery towards the Romans. Who is this mystery man?

THE LITTLE HORN of the MALE GOAT; GREECE (SYRIA)

Antiochus Epiphanes (175-164) The Jews suffered extreme difficulties with Antiochus Epiphanes who robbed the temple, set up an image of Jupiter in the Holy of Holies, pulled down the walls of Jerusalem, commanded the sacrifice of pigs, forbade circumcision, and burned all the sacred books he could find. Armies were washed away before him as he gained ground in his initially precarious position. And the "prince of the Covenant", probably Jason the high priest, was treacherously removed and murdered (without the knowledge of Antiochus) by a Hellenist named Menelaus.

Thus far, we've seen the rise and fall between the kings of the north and the kings of the south, between Syria (North) and Egypt (South). We also seen how greed for wealth and power seems to always get in the way and cause strong nations to eventually fall, or suffer defeat by an enemy at their weakest time. We also saw the rise of two great figures, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the mystery man who would cause the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem, and the rise of the Roman Empire. We are now completed up to verse 22. I will pick up with the deception between Antiochus IV and Ptolemy IV of Egypt. Which will take us to the rise of the Roman Empire and Daniel's prophesied "End".

ADDITIONAL NOTE

I forgot to say read verses 23 - 39 which explains what Antiochus IV did. This was the abomination which set up the Desolation which occurred during that time. I'll cover that on my next post. This involved the wars between Antiochus IV and Ptolemy, who help give birth to the rise of the Roman Empire. I know some of you who are looking for the Matthew 24 fulfillment, you'll have to be patient. I'll explain everything near the end of these posts. Trust me brothers and sisters, it all fits in.

Joe

MHz
01-02-2008, 02:40 PM
I'll save my comments till you finish, I assume that would include a seamless integration of the revelant verses from Revelation.

TheForgiven
01-02-2008, 06:16 PM
Daniel's vision is not so much attributed to Revelation as many might think. The results are the same, in speaking of the end of Daniel's people, the city, and the temple. But that was not Daniel's main idea. It must be further noted that Daniel was never told what the outcome of all those things would be. Instead, he was told to "seal up the vision" for it had to do with the time of the end of his people and city.

Of course, you're probably assuming that Daniel was shown a vision about the end of the world, and not even a 10th of Daniel's visions were about the end of the world, neither literally or figuratively. It was all about the end of his people and city. He thus asked, "What is the outcome of all this?" The angel tells him to go his way.

John, however, does provide us with the meaning of all those events, but in a figurative way so that the enemy couldn't understand. The Roman Empire was not given permission to understand that it was they who were the ones who would do this destruction, and it was they who would suffer illnesses, plagues, and diseases throughout the final three centuries.

But I'll complete with Daniel's vision probably tomorrow. And to give you something to think about, the final chapters were primarily about Antiochus Epiphanes. However, this is linked with what happened in 70 AD. That is why Jesus reminded his Apostles to remember the abomination that sets up the Desolation. I'll save that part for last.

I hope you're not going to imply that certain parts of Daniel's vision are yet to be fulfilled. That would be non-Jewish to say the least, considering even the first centuries Jews believed it was fulfilled during the Maccabee's period.

Joe

MHz
01-02-2008, 07:57 PM
Daniel's vision is not so much attributed to Revelation as many might think.

I don't blame you for not attempting to mesh them.

Did you come up with all those people and dates and numbers of those killed all by yourself? It's considered polite to give any credit to other people if you have used their work as references. I read pretty much the very same thing 5 years ago.

This seems to cover to cover everybody.
Da:2:44: And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Da:2:45: Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Da:7:27: And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Da:8:25: And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Da:12:1: And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Da:12:2: And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It would seem that Daniel does briefly cover what Revelation deals with in greater detail.

TheForgiven
01-03-2008, 08:40 AM
Did you come up with all those people and dates and numbers of those killed all by yourself? It's considered polite to give any credit to other people if you have used their work as references. I read pretty much the very same thing 5 years ago.

Of course not. I do research on historical figures and I followed the examples of other Christian's who support the fulfillment of Daniel's vision. Christians such as myself who see Daniel's vision as being fulfilled rely on external history sources. This has the advantage of not posting biased information.

Care for the links used?

Joe

MHz
01-03-2008, 01:58 PM
Of course not. I do research on historical figures and I followed the examples of other Christian's who support the fulfillment of Daniel's vision. Christians such as myself who see Daniel's vision as being fulfilled rely on external history sources. This has the advantage of not posting biased information.

Care for the links used?

Joe
Sure.

"the examples of other Christian's who support the fulfillment of Daniel's vision. Christians such as myself who see Daniel's vision as being fulfilled rely on external history sources"
Nothing biased there for sure, ever come across anything that disputes that?

MHz
01-03-2008, 04:46 PM
Hi Joe,
In some recent post didn't you reference a verse from Da:7:25: as having 'time' mean a year? Daniel didn't get that info until a later chapter, why would you apply that to a verse from a previous chapter.
Da:9:2: In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

TheForgiven
01-03-2008, 05:37 PM
Hi Joe,
In some recent post didn't you reference a verse from Da:7:25: as having 'time' mean a year? Daniel didn't get that info until a later chapter, why would you apply that to a verse from a previous chapter.
Da:9:2: In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

The Seventy sevens was a prophesy involving the former nation of Israel. Daniel himself did not understand the seventy years captivity. But after the Angel explained to Daniel the meaning, he then realized that it wasn't 70 actual years, but 70 sets of seven, totaling 490 years, with each year actually lasting seven years. At the end of the seventy sevens, all would be finished and the Anointed would allot a predetermined time for his people (Daniel's people) accept the gospel. However, they didn't so the gospel fulfilled its purpose in Jerusalem and went among the nations. Once that process was completed, then came the end as prophesied to Daniel; the end of the city and the sanctuary.

Revelation's is the story of this destruction as well as the reason why. Daniel's vision does not explain why, and that is why he was told to "seal up the visions" because the answers to his question were not to be given. But those who "knew their God" would understand.

It's my opinion that Daniel's vision of the He Goat involved the Empire Greece, beginning with Phillip the II and ending with Antiochus Epiphanes, who was part of the Seleucus family line. What does this have to do with Matthew 24? It's my opinion that General Titus would repeat what Antiochus did. That is why the gospels read regarding the abomination of Desolation, "Let the reader understand". So whey they saw the abomination of Desolation, as recorded in the prophesy of Daniel, even though Daniel's vision involved Antiochus IV, this very same thing would happen in 70 AD, with the soldiers and the leader taking siege of the temple and thereby desecrating it. Luke verifies this when he speaks of the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem. This same invasion caused the Jews to halt the animal sacrifices, with supplies being cut off. However, the animal rituals were abolished with the cross of Christ, which proves Daniel's final week occurred at the cross, having happened in the middle of Christ's ministry when he was crucified.

As soon as I get to my log files on the computer, I will send you the list of sources. I will finish the posts at another time and I am extremely busy with my work place.....working too many hours. Sorry all.

Joe