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Richard Amiel McGough
09-18-2012, 09:13 AM
This is a fascinating article that follows up with what happened to the cult members who believed in Harold Camping's ridiculous prediction that the "rapture" would happen on May 21, 2011. Here's a snippet. Note that folks who get caught up in this kind of error tend to be the "analytic" sort -

A Year After the Non-Apocalypse: Where Are They Now?
(http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/atheologies/5983/a_year_after_the_non-apocalypse%3A_where_are_they_now/)A reporter tracks down the remnants of Harold Camping’s apocalyptic movement and finds out you don’t have to be crazy to believe something nuts.



May 21 believers couldn’t afford to doubt either. Whenever I met one, I would ask: Is there any chance you might be wrong? Could someone have miscalculated, misunderstood a verse, botched a symbol? Just maybe?

I asked this question of a believer in his mid-twenties. He started listening to Harold Camping’s radio show in college and immediately went out, bought a Bible, and immersed himself in it. After graduation, he took a job as an engineer at a Fortune 500 company; a job he loved and a job he quit because he thought the world was ending. He wrote the following in his resignation letter: “With less than three months to the day of Christ’s return, I desire to spend more time studying the Bible and sounding the trumpet warning of this imminent judgment.”

He would not entertain the possibility, even hypothetically, that the date could be off. “This isn’t a prediction because a prediction has a potential for failure,” he told me.
“Even if it’s 99.9 percent, that extra .1 percent makes it not certain. It’s like the weather. If it’s 60 percent, it may or may not rain. But in this case we’re saying 100 percent it will come. God with a consuming fire is coming to bring judgment and destroy the world.”

I encountered this same certainty again and again. When I asked how they could be so sure, the answers were fuzzy. It wasn’t any one particular verse or chapter but rather the evidence as a whole. Some believers compared it to a puzzle. At first the pieces are spread out on a table, just shards of color, fragments of meaning. Then you assemble, piece by piece, finding a corner here, a connection there, until you begin to make out a portion of the picture, a glimpse of the scene. Finally, you only have a few pieces left and it’s obvious where they go.

A psychologist might call this confirmation bias, that is, the tendency to accept only evidence that confirms what you already believe, to search for pieces that fit your puzzle. We’re all guilty of it at times. But that label doesn’t fully explain the willingness to suspend disbelief: Believers selectively accepted evidence that caused them to quit their jobs, alienate friends and family, and stand on street corners absorbing abuse from passers-by. There is something else going on.

It’s been noted by scholars who study apocalyptic groups that believers tend to have analytical mindsets. They’re often good at math. I met several engineers, along with a mathematics major and two financial planners. These are people adept at identifying patterns in sets of data, and the methods they used to identify patterns in the Bible were frequently impressive, even brilliant. Finding unexpected connections between verses, what believers call comparing scripture with scripture, was a way to become known in the group. The essays they wrote explaining these links could be stunningly intricate.

That intricacy was part of the appeal. The arguments were so complex that they were impossible to summarize and therefore very challenging to refute. As one longtime believer, an accountant, told me: “Based on everything we know, and when you look at the timelines, you look at the evidence—these aren’t the kind of things that just happen. They correlate too strongly for it not to be important.” The puzzle was too perfect. It couldn’t be wrong.


Given the fact that serious and sincere believers can be so totally wrong when they feel so totally right should give all believers in the Bible pause. What makes your beliefs different than a Campingite? Answering that question will open the door to freedom from delusion.

CWH
09-19-2012, 10:25 AM
This is a fascinating article that follows up with what happened to the cult members who believed in Harold Camping's ridiculous prediction that the "rapture" would happen on May 21, 2011. Here's a snippet. Note that folks who get caught up in this kind of error tend to be the "analytic" sort -

A Year After the Non-Apocalypse: Where Are They Now?
(http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/atheologies/5983/a_year_after_the_non-apocalypse%3A_where_are_they_now/)A reporter tracks down the remnants of Harold Camping’s apocalyptic movement and finds out you don’t have to be crazy to believe something nuts.



Given the fact that serious and sincere believers can be so totally wrong when they feel so totally right should give all believers in the Bible pause. What makes your beliefs different than a Campingite? Answering that question will open the door to freedom from delusion.

The cult members will still continue perhaps they have learned their lesson not to anyhow believe in the time of the end as to what Jesus said that "no one knows the day and time of His coming not even the angels except the Father who is in heaven". This is a punishment for not believing in what Jesus said. The end is yet to come and it is not possible to set a date yet ....AD 70 or whatever it is.

God Bless. :pray:

Richard Amiel McGough
09-19-2012, 10:43 AM
The cult members will still continue perhaps they have learned their lesson not to anyhow believe in the time of the end as to what Jesus said that "no one knows the day and time of His coming not even the angels except the Father who is in heaven". This is a punishment for not believing in what Jesus said. The end is yet to come and it is not possible to set a date yet ....AD 70 or whatever it is.

God Bless. :pray:

Yeah, but the fact that there were thousands upon thousands of deluded Christians who believe the Bible is the inerrant and infallible Word of God disagreed with those verses only proves that the Bible is not a reliable guide. They gave over 80 MILLION dollars to the deluded Harold Camping who said he preached NOTHING but the "the whole Bible in its entirety."

How do you know that your beliefs about the Bible are not equally wrong? You have nothing but your own interpretation with no proof.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-09-2013, 06:59 PM
I was studying the crazy teachings from http://www.thefirmament.org about how God supposedly encoded a false value of the diameter of the sun into the Bible and I ran into a Yahoo group being run by the followers of failed date setter and doomsday predictor, the Arch Loon Harold Camping. And imagine my surprise when I discovered that they don't believe that his prediction about the beginning of Judgement Day on May 21, 2011 was false at all. No sir! It happened right on schedule! Here is the message (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/TimeandJudgment_May212011/conversations/topics/11417) I accidentally encountered. It was posted just a few days ago:



It seems to be true as we study the bible, and for the deeper spiritual meaning, that in particular the book of Acts, we see this great connection and the spiritual similarity of the last days; the last days which began to come to pass in 33 AD and with the first pouring out of the Holy Spirit of truth then, and with the pouring out of the Holy Spirit again with the beginning of the Day of Judgment on May 21, 2011.

It can be looked at and understood as the Holy Spirit of truth coming to judge the world with the word of God. The first pouring out of the Holy Spirit which came on May 21, 33 AD, was then the beginning of the building of the external church of the church age, which lasted for 1955 days, to the very day and ended on May 21, 1988. Then the great tribulation time started and for 23 years exactly to the very day and it then ended on May 21, 2011.

And then on this great day of May 21, 2011, God began a second fulfilling and bringing to pass of the last days, these last days are the spiritual ones or types of the last days, where nothing is happening literally as they did during the first ones.

This is the time when God or Christ is coming on the clouds of glory, and is pouring out His Holy Spirit of truth on his Elect people, and is gathering all of his people into His spiritual kingdom. For the kingdom of God is not yet seen or known to us outwardly but inwardly and spiritually, the kingdom of God is yet within us, and has to do with peace and joy of the Holy Spirit.

But it may be true from the word of God, that God is also now coming and with his word and by his Holy Spirit is judging all of the unsaved people, in these days after May 21, 2011.
God connects and therefore helps to reveal these things and events to us by the dates and times concerning them, as follows;

1. The first Pentecost on May 21, 33 AD. This was the beginning of The New Testament Church age.
2. On May 21, 1988, the 13,000 year of the worlds history. This was the end of the church age, and the beginning of Gods judgment which began upon the churches, and as the Holy Spirit then departed from the churches.
3. On May 21, 2011, the 13,023 year of the worlds history. This was the beginning of the Day of Judgment.

This is also why this day is called the Day of Judgment in 2 Peter 3:7, and ties it to the flood of Noah’s day in the previous verses.

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

And we are given the same pattern of numbers, dates and times, from the bible, from the biblical calendar of history, so that we could not possibly miss the great significance of these things.

From Creation to the year of the flood of Noah’s day we have: 6023 years. And from Creation to the year of the Day of Judgment on May 21, 2011, we have 13,023 years. And God further ties the Day of Judgment to the flood of Noah’s day to the exact day that the flood began on the 17th day of the 2nd month of the Hebrew calendar, which corresponded to May 21, 2011 of our modern Gregorian calendar.

We are also given much additional information from the bible, with time and dates, historical events and parables and numbers, to tie in this information and assure us of the truth and reality of these spiritual things.

The most important thing for us as Gods Elect people to grasp and to understand, that is happening now at this present time, is of this spiritual pouring out of the Holy Spirit of truth upon Gods Elect people, for the Gathering together and edifying and sanctifying of us by the Holy Spirit and through the word of God.

We only can see this and know this spiritually, and as we walk in the Spirit and by faith. And also it is in the measure of our obedience to this, to walking in the Spirit and by faith, that we will see and understand the truth and reality of these spiritual things.

We must know and understand that it is our obedience to the word of God and our faithfulness to it and him alone that really matters. It is not in our own belief, or our own works, and even our own understanding that can help us, or has given to us salvation.

The coming of the Holy Spirit of truth, is for the sanctification and edification of all Gods Elect people, through the word of God; causing us to have conviction of our sin and repentance from sin, thus causing us to be tried and purified and refined. But for the unsaved, it causes them to be judged and spiritually burned up. For God and his word is a consuming fire.


I don't know :dontknow: if I should :lol: or :bawl:

Fundamentalist religion destroys minds. It creates luna-freaking-tics! And now they've started a new cult that is oddly similar to the JWs who predicted that Christ would literally return in 1914 and when that failed they said it happened "spiritually" which is exactly the same thing King Freak Harold Camping said. Wow.

Timmy
11-09-2013, 10:38 PM
I wouldn't say it is fundamentalism per se, so much as fundaments.

What really is so piteous about so many extremists like this is that because they do not know the reality of discipleship, following Y'shua, they talk about what they imagine and is not tangible for them, they say that this is "spiritual", proving beyond a shadow of any doubt they do not know the first thing about what actually is spiritual.

These folks, like so many others fall victim to their own allegorization of the Bible to make them think it somehow fits their experience.

Them calling the pentecost after the resurrection the first pentecost gave me a little chuckle...but:I really laughed when they said something about judgment having already happened and the spirit not saving anyone anymore, and right after this quote the words of Y'shua, "My words are spirit and life"...doesn't anybody notice this emblazoned contradiction.

Now salvation is not a one time decision but a continual work of God in any who are believing and persist. Besides, more than a person having no control or making a contribution to their physical birth, a person being delivered by God has even less control and contributes less than nothing to being born again from above.

There are many blatant contradictions to Biblical truth in their article, but it just doesn't pay to tell date setters that the last days began when Y'shua cried out, "Telestai"("paid in full" or "transaction complete"or as the AV writes it, "It is finished."), and if His spirit were to leave, everything would no longer hold together.

They are nuts.

They remind me of seperationists. Tell them the reason they are not experiencing any deliverance, wholeness, or preservation (aka:soteria/saving) is because they do not love Y'shua nor keep His commands...beginning with, "as you are going in the world, declare the gospel to every creature...and the very reason they are not experiencing spirit life is because of this ignorant way of ignoring His words for the sake of their number guessing.

Þ.Œ.:sBo_reflection2:

Richard Amiel McGough
11-10-2013, 11:27 AM
I wouldn't say it is fundamentalism per se, so much as fundaments.

What really is so piteous about so many extremists like this is that because they do not know the reality of discipleship, following Y'shua, they talk about what they imagine and is not tangible for them, they say that this is "spiritual", proving beyond a shadow of any doubt they do not know the first thing about what actually is spiritual.

These folks, like so many others fall victim to their own allegorization of the Bible to make them think it somehow fits their experience.

I'm not sure I follow, since it seems that the concept of "following Y'shua" involves all the same elements of self-deception these folks display to a greater or lesser degree. Perhaps there is a difference in extent, but it seems to be of the same essence. Perhaps a different quantity, but of the same quality.



Them calling the pentecost after the resurrection the first pentecost gave me a little chuckle...but:I really laughed when they said something about judgment having already happened and the spirit not saving anyone anymore, and right after this quote the words of Y'shua, "My words are spirit and life"...doesn't anybody notice this emblazoned contradiction.

That didn't leap out at me because I understood them as referring to the "first Pentecost" following the crucifixion when the Holy Spirit was given. But of course, their idea that the Holy Spirit is now being "poured out" through their preaching that the Holy Spirit has been taken away is a bit problematic .... to say the least! That's the essence of their insanity. They are absolutely committed to the ludicrous and absolutely unfounded so-called "Biblical calendar of history" that was made up by their mad cult leader Harold Camping. They take it as absolute and incontrovertible. And so they declare everything it predicted happened right on schedule. Wow. Pure madness.

But note! Their madness reveals the essential insanity of Christianity itself which began as a failed doomsday cult.



Now salvation is not a one time decision but a continual work of God in any who are believing and persist.

Believing what?



Besides, more than a person having no control or making a contribution to their physical birth, a person being delivered by God has even less control and contributes less than nothing to being born again from above.

That sounds like Calvinism. The believer is every bit as passive as the baby being delivered. There's nothing anyone can do to "get saved".



There are many blatant contradictions to Biblical truth in their article, but it just doesn't pay to tell date setters that the last days began when Y'shua cried out, "Telestai"("paid in full" or "transaction complete"or as the AV writes it, "It is finished."), and if His spirit were to leave, everything would no longer hold together.

They are nuts.

Too true. And that's why all the various Christianities seem to me to be self-evidently irrational and irrelevant. The Bible is so ambiguous as to be meaningless. It's really nothing but a Rorschach test.

It's great secret was revealed in the movie Circle of Iron with David Carradine, when the seeker finally fought his way through all the obstacles and found the Book of Enlightenment and opened it and saw [deleted to prevent spoiling the movie].



They remind me of seperationists. Tell them the reason they are not experiencing any deliverance, wholeness, or preservation (aka:soteria/saving) is because they do not love Y'shua nor keep His commands...beginning with, "as you are going in the world, declare the gospel to every creature...and the very reason they are not experiencing spirit life is because of this ignorant way of ignoring His words for the sake of their number guessing.

Þ.Œ.:sBo_reflection2:
Now you've really put your foot in it! Are you suggesting that "true believers" actually experience [in a scientifically demonstrable way] "any deliverance, wholeness, or preservation"? You've gotta be kidding my friend! That's the oldest lie in the book! Every lying preacher speaks in unison with every deluded believer that mere "belief" will give them all they ever wanted - money, sex, power - or in the sanitized religious lingo "deliverance, wholeness, preservation". This is the "secret" of The Secret™ which was bought by rubes conditioned by religion to believe that belief was all that's needed to get everything one might want. That's the quintessential pipe dream and the essence of all religion, not to mention the essential promise of every conman that has ever helped fools fulfill the proverb concerning themselves and money.

Timmy
11-10-2013, 02:54 PM
...wouldn't say it is fundamentalism per se, so much as fundaments.

What really is so piteous about so many extremists like this is that because they do not know the reality of discipleship, following Y'shua, they talk about what they imagine and is not tangible for them, they say that this is "spiritual", proving beyond a shadow of any doubt they do not know the first thing about what actually is spiritual.

These folks, like so many others fall victim to their own allegorization of the Bible to make them think it somehow fits their experience.


I'm not sure I follow, since it seems that the concept of "following Y'shua" involves all the same elements of self-deception these folks display to a greater or lesser degree. Perhaps there is a difference in extent, but it seems to be of the same essence. Perhaps a different quantity, but of the same quality.What same elements do you mean?

Basically, conventional Patristic xianity, be it orthodox, protestant, sect, schism, or kultus at it's root is humanism wrapped in a pretty xian package. What i am speaking of, if not from the start, eventually breaks with this.

It stands in distinct opposition to xian humanism.

It's not about God doing it all for us, because this is not true.

God did it all for Himself and everything exists for His purpose and plan. We can either go with His program or die.

It's really quite simple. Most people just don't even have the guts to face up to what he has designated, and even fewer find conformity to His design for living a viable option.


Their calling the pentecost after the resurrection the first pentecost gave me a little chuckle...but:I really laughed when they said something about judgment having already happened and the spirit not saving anyone anymore, and right after this quote the words of Y'shua, "My words are spirit and life"...doesn't anybody notice this emblazoned contradiction.



That didn't leap out at me because I understood them as referring to the "first Pentecost" following the crucifixion when the Holy Spirit was given. But of course, their idea that the Holy Spirit is now being "poured out" through their preaching that the Holy Spirit has been taken away is a bit problematic .... to say the least! That's the essence of their insanity. They are absolutely committed to the ludicrous and absolutely unfounded so-called "Biblical calendar of history" that was made up by their mad cult leader Harold Camping. They take it as absolute and incontrovertible. And so they declare everything it predicted happened right on schedule. Wow. Pure madness.

But note! Their madness reveals the essential insanity of Christianity itself which began as a failed doomsday cult. Oh, we all see things from our own slant, and this probably is why we note different things.

I wonder if it was True Christianity that is the failed doomsday cult, or is it the doomsday cults that extrapolate themselves as standing out from the rest of organized xianity will always fail.

Y'shua more than onc in different ways, said, "That's a big None-ya, folks; so just quit with the datesetting and watching events unfold. Instead, look up, watch and pray, so that you can be counted worthy."

Just knowing these red words should make people consider they are no longer walking the walk when their "looking" is in the wrong direction. You cannot look two ways at the same time (without video feed).

It sounds like these Camping campers give more credence to the devisings of one man's "private interpretation" more than they do the Bible itself, hunh?






Now salvation is not a one time decision but a continual work of God in any who are believing and persist.

Believing what? Believing as in believing and doing, not just agreeing in the head.

Believing into the finished work of Y'shua's sacrafice: identifying ourselves in Him in this, instead of any organized effort detracting from this one thing.


Besides, more than a person having no control or making a contribution to their physical birth, a person being delivered by God has even less control and contributes less than nothing to being born again from above.


That sounds like Calvinism. The believer is every bit as passive as the baby being delivered. There's nothing anyone can do to "get saved". I wasn't talking about Calvinism, and neither am i Armenian. I was jist presenting half of the picture...yeah right, a baby being delivered passive? This i have yet to see...maybe the stillborn perhaps, but not for the others.




There are many blatant contradictions to Biblical truth in their article, but it just doesn't pay to tell date setters that the last days began when Y'shua cried out, "Telestai"("paid in full" or "transaction complete"or as the AV writes it, "It is finished."), and if His spirit were to leave, everything would no longer hold together.

They are nuts.


Too true. And that's why all the various Christianities seem to me to be self-evidently irrational and irrelevant. The Bible is so ambiguous as to be meaningless. It's really nothing but a Rorschach test.

It's great secret was revealed in the movie Circle of Iron with David Carradine, when the seeker finally fought his way through all the obstacles and found the Book of Enlightenment and opened it and saw [deleted to prevent spoiling the movie]. If people would recognize tje purpose of the Bible, a progressive revelation about all of who Y'shua is, the inkblots lose their appeal to the imagination.

The Bible is ambiguous to any who are unwilling to admit, or cannot recognize the aforesaid fact.




They remind me of seperationists. Tell them the reason they are not experiencing any deliverance, wholeness, or preservation (aka:soteria/saving) is because they do not love Y'shua nor keep His commands...beginning with, "as you are going in the world, declare the gospel to every creature...and the very reason they are not experiencing spirit life is because of this ignorant way of ignoring His words for the sake of their number guessing.

Þ.Œ.:sBo_reflection2:


Now you've really put your foot in it! Are you suggesting that "true believers" actually experience [in a scientifically demonstrable way] "any deliverance, wholeness, or preservation"? You've gotta be kidding my friend! That's the oldest lie in the book! Every lying preacher speaks in unison with every deluded believer that mere "belief" will give them all they ever wanted - money, sex, power - or in the sanitized religious lingo "deliverance, wholeness, preservation". This is the "secret" of The Secret™ which was bought by rubes conditioned by religion to believe that belief was all that's needed to get everything one might want. That's the quintessential pipe dream and the essence of all religion, not to mention the essential promise of every conman that has ever helped fools fulfill the proverb concerning themselves and money.It was figured and planned to expect no other response. It's about time this were all hashed out.

Here goes, attempt #1:

Within the mystery of iniquity are factors prevalent leading to an "if i do this, then i am going to get that" attitude. It is purely physically thinking, and because of this very fact, one rises no higher. Indeed, by those whose thoughts, feelings, words and actions have their basis in this, then this is all that can be known.

This wrong way begins and ends in actions stemming from the root attitude that "I want what I want and this is why I shall do as I do. Essentially this is the "instinctive" behind idolatry. Idol worshippers only serve the dictates of their chosen Ikon--(be that person, place, or thing)--to get what they want, and not for the sole merit of (that person, place, or thing).

Those sho are greedy for gain suffer at the hands of the conmen because they so badly want what has been misrepresented sparkling in the wrong light...or is that darkness?

People who have not laid their own motives down at the cross to carry the Christ's instead are not really true believers are they? They approach Elohim with the intention of giving to get, tit for tat, this for that.Not True Christianity, and neither True Belief from the way i see it...now.

It is a failure of blindness not to recognize God does not need any one of us, but loves us NTL. It is also this mistaken misunderstanding which causes many to fail to account for His holiness. In short, without listing a series of neglected comprehensions, nobody of their own merit, whatever the words, thoughts, or deeds is even on speaking terms with Yah without walking dependent on Him denying even what we use mental rationale to think, instead of considering who He is as he reveals himself.

A true believer will continually walk always considering the sacrifice of Y'shua, as this is the very basis of life for them...the covenant then becomes real.

I don't know about science in this regard, but both doctors and financial experts (BMAs) whom have been employed end up completely astounded when instead of following the recommended course of action in my own better interest--whether that is abeyance or it's opposite being done in what would normally be considered an act of self-loss against all odds,--only to see the end as something for more than and good that could have ever been expected even in the best analyzed case scenario.

I am not out to prove this to anybody. Maybe i am not even framing the words clearly, but i know what works, and the first step begins when one is clear that this life is not about me or you at all.

Rube's cube and all the physical accouterments is not what is intended as my meaning at all. No sideshow here.

The issue is relational, considering things in God's terms, coming alongside His purpose, finding far more satisfaction and needs met dying to ourselves and living according to the Christ: living as a dead men to what we assume we need, letting God handle that, and concerning ojrselves with his design for us: to die so His "dunamis" enlivens all our doings.


You have heard the optomist/pessimist analogy how some think the cup is either half full or half empty.

Truth is it is full all the time. It is all a matter or what is utilizing the space within the container....and if they are trying to get you to believe and do something without being able to sit down and negotiate everything through, counting the cost, don't buy it, because more than likely they are telling you only what they want you to hear so they can get you to do what they want you to do.

If they are making an appeal only to reason, it is an issue of grey matter.
If they are appealing to the senses, it is sensual.
An appeal to the imagination is ” ? "...etc...

If it is an appeal to changing everything you thought was right, to walk in the great paradox: count the cost; because this is what God says do, contrary to what religious hucksters will lie to you saying. God is not asking for blind faith; but for those who will follow Him, a step by step process of leading us further laid out and becomes known as we continue.



?howZat?


What's next? I know that i have not covered near even close to something completely comprehensive about my current perspective, so ask away or tell me off or whatever else comes to mind out from the above.


Þ.Œ.:sBo_reflection2:

Charisma
11-10-2013, 04:04 PM
Great post, Tim.


I especially liked

' ... sparkling in the wrong light...or is that darkness?'


Blessings, brother. :)

Richard Amiel McGough
11-10-2013, 10:39 PM
What same elements do you mean?

Believing, without evidence, that what you imagine is real.


Basically, conventional Patristic xianity, be it orthodox, protestant, sect, schism, or kultus at it's root is humanism wrapped in a pretty xian package. What i am speaking of, if not from the start, eventually breaks with this.

The stuff I was talking about is far from "Patristic xianity" since I was referring to all the Christianities that have been arisen throughout history. They are all just matters of personal opinion.



It stands in distinct opposition to xian humanism.

It's not about God doing it all for us, because this is not true.

God did it all for Himself and everything exists for His purpose and plan. We can either go with His program or die.

It's really quite simple. Most people just don't even have the guts to face up to what he has designated, and even fewer find conformity to His design for living a viable option

That sounds like Calvinism, ya know?



I wonder if it was True Christianity that is the failed doomsday cult, or is it the doomsday cults that extrapolate themselves as standing out from the rest of organized xianity will always fail.

Y'shua more than onc in different ways, said, "That's a big None-ya, folks; so just quit with the datesetting and watching events unfold. Instead, look up, watch and pray, so that you can be counted worthy."

Just knowing these red words should make people consider they are no longer walking the walk when their "looking" is in the wrong direction. You cannot look two ways at the same time (without video feed).

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that those words were put in the mouth of Christ by his followers after his predictions failed



It sounds like these Camping campers give more credence to the devisings of one man's "private interpretation" more than they do the Bible itself, hunh?

Oh yes, that is most certainly the case. But they exemplify how religious folks tend to deceive themselves.



Believing as in believing and doing, not just agreeing in the head.

Believing into the finished work of Y'shua's sacrafice: identifying ourselves in Him in this, instead of any organized effort detracting from this one thing.

Yes, there are two meanings to "believing". One is "trust" as in "I trust my wife" or "I am faithful to my wife" whereas the other has to do with accepting a proposition like "God exists eternally as three persons in one Godhead."



I wasn't talking about Calvinism, and neither am i Armenian. I was jist presenting half of the picture...yeah right, a baby being delivered passive? This i have yet to see...maybe the stillborn perhaps, but not for the others.

Passive in the sense that the baby did not choose to be conceived, and after that, it did not "choose" to be born. It was driven by necessity.

But you missed the main point, which is that you said that it is God who does the saving, and that's what the Calvinists say.



If people would recognize tje purpose of the Bible, a progressive revelation about all of who Y'shua is, the inkblots lose their appeal to the imagination.

That sounds like your interpretation of the inkblot.



The Bible is ambiguous to any who are unwilling to admit, or cannot recognize the aforesaid fact.

Not true. The Bible is demonstrably "ambiguous".



It was figured and planned to expect no other response. It's about time this were all hashed out.

Here goes, attempt #1:

Within the mystery of iniquity are factors prevalent leading to an "if i do this, then i am going to get that" attitude. It is purely physically thinking, and because of this very fact, one rises no higher. Indeed, by those whose thoughts, feelings, words and actions have their basis in this, then this is all that can be known.

This wrong way begins and ends in actions stemming from the root attitude that "I want what I want and this is why I shall do as I do. Essentially this is the "instinctive" behind idolatry. Idol worshippers only serve the dictates of their chosen Ikon--(be that person, place, or thing)--to get what they want, and not for the sole merit of (that person, place, or thing).

Those sho are greedy for gain suffer at the hands of the conmen because they so badly want what has been misrepresented sparkling in the wrong light...or is that darkness?

People who have not laid their own motives down at the cross to carry the Christ's instead are not really true believers are they? They approach Elohim with the intention of giving to get, tit for tat, this for that.Not True Christianity, and neither True Belief from the way i see it...now.

It is a failure of blindness not to recognize God does not need any one of us, but loves us NTL. It is also this mistaken misunderstanding which causes many to fail to account for His holiness. In short, without listing a series of neglected comprehensions, nobody of their own merit, whatever the words, thoughts, or deeds is even on speaking terms with Yah without walking dependent on Him denying even what we use mental rationale to think, instead of considering who He is as he reveals himself.

If God really "loved us" we wouldn't need to be told.

Your explanation is filled with strange presuppositions that seem more or less unique to you.



A true believer will continually walk always considering the sacrifice of Y'shua, as this is the very basis of life for them...the covenant then becomes real.

I totally understand life from that point of view. I lived in it for over a decade.



I am not out to prove this to anybody. Maybe i am not even framing the words clearly, but i know what works, and the first step begins when one is clear that this life is not about me or you at all.

That's not particularly lucid to me.


Rube's cube and all the physical accouterments is not what is intended as my meaning at all. No sideshow here.

The issue is relational, considering things in God's terms, coming alongside His purpose, finding far more satisfaction and needs met dying to ourselves and living according to the Christ: living as a dead men to what we assume we need, letting God handle that, and concerning ojrselves with his design for us: to die so His "dunamis" enlivens all our doings.

The concept of "dying to ourselves" makes fine sense as a metaphor for not being to selfish, but really, to make a religion of it? Bah. Look at the nuts of the first few centuries who thought Godliness was self-torture and self-hatred. Something got lost in translation.



If they are making an appeal only to reason, it is an issue of grey matter.
If they are appealing to the senses, it is sensual.
An appeal to the imagination is ” ? "...etc...

If it is an appeal to changing everything you thought was right, to walk in the great paradox: count the cost; because this is what God says do, contrary to what religious hucksters will lie to you saying. God is not asking for blind faith; but for those who will follow Him, a step by step process of leading us further laid out and becomes known as we continue.



?howZat?


What's next? I know that i have not covered near even close to something completely comprehensive about my current perspective, so ask away or tell me off or whatever else comes to mind out from the above.

It's all good. It is foolish to appeal just to reason, just to intuition, just to senses, or "just to" anything less than your full being. I just don't see what God, the Bible, or Jesus has to do with anything. They are intellectual constructs folks vivify with their daily experience and then project "out there" thinking it is all real. I don't see any reality in any of it.

Great chatting, Sir Timotheos!

Richard

Mystykal
11-11-2013, 01:44 AM
Believing, without evidence, that what you imagine is real.


The stuff I was talking about is far from "Patristic xianity" since I was referring to all the Christianities that have been arisen throughout history. They are all just matters of personal opinion.


That sounds like Calvinism, ya know?


I wouldn't be surprised to learn that those words were put in the mouth of Christ by his followers after his predictions failed


Oh yes, that is most certainly the case. But they exemplify how religious folks tend to deceive themselves.


Yes, there are two meanings to "believing". One is "trust" as in "I trust my wife" or "I am faithful to my wife" whereas the other has to do with accepting a proposition like "God exists eternally as three persons in one Godhead."


Passive in the sense that the baby did not choose to be conceived, and after that, it did not "choose" to be born. It was driven by necessity.

But you missed the main point, which is that you said that it is God who does the saving, and that's what the Calvinists say.


That sounds like your interpretation of the inkblot.


Not true. The Bible is demonstrably "ambiguous".


If God really "loved us" we wouldn't need to be told.

Your explanation is filled with strange presuppositions that seem more or less unique to you.


I totally understand life from that point of view. I lived in it for over a decade.


That's not particularly lucid to me.


The concept of "dying to ourselves" makes fine sense as a metaphor for not being to selfish, but really, to make a religion of it? Bah. Look at the nuts of the first few centuries who thought Godliness was self-torture and self-hatred. Something got lost in translation.


It's all good. It is foolish to appeal just to reason, just to intuition, just to senses, or "just to" anything less than your full being. I just don't see what God, the Bible, or Jesus has to do with anything. They are intellectual constructs folks vivify with their daily experience and then project "out there" thinking it is all real. I don't see any reality in any of it.

Great chatting, Sir Timotheos!

Richard

Hi Richard:
I hope you will respond here too! You Said, " It is foolish to appeal just to reason, just to intuition, just to senses, or "just to" anything less than your full being. I just don't see what God, the Bible, or Jesus has to do with anything. They are intellectual constructs folks vivify with their daily experience and then project "out there" thinking it is all real. I don't see any reality in any of it. "

The idea that there is no future life or eternal life simply because there is no tangible proof at the moment which fits the scientific model - does not mean that it is not an option and a possibility. Hence the need for GOD. The reason faith exists is for the function of taking someone at their word. The verification process is not presently availablein the physical sense. It's like trying to tell some kid that George Washington was the first president of the USA. All the "evidence" in the world will not really make a believer out of the kid without the use of some form of faith. You have to accept the written word about the life of George Washington. No one alive today ever saw him. And yet you believe the evidence left behind about him.

The same holds true for GOD. The evidence left behind must be accepted and then the living experience will enter the life when the seeker is ready. "Without faith it is impossible to please God." Hebrews 11:6


Namaste,

Mystykal

David M
11-11-2013, 05:42 AM
Just adding my pennyworth.

The Bible gives us the definition of faith. (Heb 11:1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

We hope for things in the future based on things of the past which were true.

My hope is in the resurrection that is future. My faith is based on the assurance from God of something which happened in the past. (Acts 17:31) whereof he (God) hath given assurance unto all men, in that he (God) hath raised him (Jesus) from the dead.

There will always be people who mock this fact, because they refuse to accept the reported evidence of eye-witnesses at the time.

Not even Jesus by his miracles could convince those who did not want to believe; (Luke 16:31) If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Not even the resurrection of Lazarus and the reports that followed, would make everyone believe. It is not surprising the resurrection of Jesus is not believed by the doubters.

Jesus knew exactly what would happen. It was revealed to Jesus in the same way it is revealed to us by reading in the ancient scriptures which form the Old Testament. Jesus kept no secrets;(John 15:16); for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

All that had taken place surrounding the death and resurrection of Jesus was know to the authorities. This is why Paul said to King Agrippa; (Acts 26:26) For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.

For the most part, the teaching, which Jesus received, came from the preserved scriptures. Jesus read and understood those scriptures. Jesus recognized the prophecies relating to him. Almost on every page of the OT (the scriptures) there is something to identify Jesus. Jesus is; The Prophet, the Messiah, the Christ, the Son of God, which was to come.

Hence, there is enough evidence to persuade me of the unshakable belief, which the apostle Paul had also when he wrote.
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is not up for debate.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-11-2013, 08:16 AM
Hi Richard:
I hope you will respond here too! You Said, " It is foolish to appeal just to reason, just to intuition, just to senses, or "just to" anything less than your full being. I just don't see what God, the Bible, or Jesus has to do with anything. They are intellectual constructs folks vivify with their daily experience and then project "out there" thinking it is all real. I don't see any reality in any of it. "

The idea that there is no future life or eternal life simply because there is no tangible proof at the moment which fits the scientific model - does not mean that it is not an option and a possibility. Hence the need for GOD. The reason faith exists is for the function of taking someone at their word. The verification process is not presently availablein the physical sense. It's like trying to tell some kid that George Washington was the first president of the USA. All the "evidence" in the world will not really make a believer out of the kid without the use of some form of faith. You have to accept the written word about the life of George Washington. No one alive today ever saw him. And yet you believe the evidence left behind about him.

The same holds true for GOD. The evidence left behind must be accepted and then the living experience will enter the life when the seeker is ready. "Without faith it is impossible to please God." Hebrews 11:6


Namaste,

Mystykal
Good morning Mystykal, :yo:

I do not deny the possibility of eternal life. But there is a big difference between possible and probable. And besides, there is a wide variety of possibilities - Hindu reincarnation, Christian resurrection, mystical union with God, etc. So we have a wide range of possibilities with no way to determine which, if any, is true.

You say that eternal life necessitates some variety of a GOD. I don't see the connection. Spiritual life could be just as natural as physical life.

Your main point is epistemological. You are saying that knowledge is a form a faith. There is some truth in that since one of the popular epistemological definitions of truth is "justified true belief." Unfortunately, you are saying believers must FIRST take a leap of faith that their religion is true (be it Islam, Scientology, Mormonism, your version of Christianity, or whatever), and only THEN will they receive subjective "evidence" that justifies their beliefs in their own eyes but gives them NOTHING to justify their beliefs to anyone else. That's the recipe for delusion. Literally. It is literally the recipe for delusion. By that methodology, the believer has no way to know if they are totally deluded or if they have been brainwashed to believe cult teachings, or if they have gone psychotic. Sure, it's also possible that they have discovered the truth, but the odd thing is that they have no way to actually know if they really have or not! I don't see any reason to put myself in such a position.

There also seems to be a big problem with your central claim that everyone should "take God at his word" in the the Bible because you don't seem to do that yourself. On the one hand, you seem to think that the OT is vastly superior to the NT as the "inspired Word of God" while on the other hand you sometimes speak of the NT as if it too were inspired and at other times as if it were not. I've found your position to be altogether confusing and inconsistent. I really have no idea what you believe about the Bible, so neither can I have any idea what you mean when you say that I should "take God at his word."

You say that the "verification process is not presently availablein the physical sense." Very true! And its also true that it is not available in an intellectual sense or any other sense that I know of. So here is the question that you must answer. It is the central question that I have been asking you for many months: How does one discern between truth and error in their religion if they simply accept their holy book on faith? How does one discern between Islam, Mormonism, Scientology, and the ten thousand varieties of Christianity if there is no "verification process" of anything anyone says?

And why would you take anyone's word on mere faith? Especially the word of a religious teacher, since we know that religious teachers are at the absolute BOTTOM of integrity and trustworthiness? The truth is that dogmatic religions - religions that must be accepted on faith - tend to corrupt the minds and morals of believers. Therefore, religion is the LAST place anyone should put their faith.

Great chatting!

Richards

Richard Amiel McGough
11-11-2013, 09:15 AM
Just adding my pennyworth.

The Bible gives us the definition of faith. (Heb 11:1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

We hope for things in the future based on things of the past which were true.

Good morning David, :yo:

That is, of course, the verse everyone appeals to when looking for a Biblical definition of faith. But is it even meaningful? It appears to be self-contradictory since things that are not seen are not evidence, by definition. Websters defines evidence as a "visible or outward sign that furnishes proof". That's exactly the opposite of faith. Thus, that verse is self-contradictory and hence meaningless.

And of course we've been over this same ground many times. You have never successfully substantiated your claim that the "things of the past" were true. On the contrary, it seems quite obvious to me that they were not true. For example, there was no Adam and Eve, no flood of Noah, no Exodus of some 2 million people wandering the desert for 40 years while leaving no trace of any kind. Those things are the stuff of myth and legend. There is no evidence that any of them happened, and much evidence that they did not.



My hope is in the resurrection that is future. My faith is based on the assurance from God of something which happened in the past. (Acts 17:31) whereof he (God) hath given assurance unto all men, in that he (God) hath raised him (Jesus) from the dead.

There will always be people who mock this fact, because they refuse to accept the reported evidence of eye-witnesses at the time.

It is not a matter of "mocking" - the question is one of truth. Is there any reason anyone should believe that Jesus was resurrected? I don't think so, and one of the most striking reasons is that the Bible is totally incoherent on this point. It is impossible to give a coherent narrative of what supposedly happened in the passion week. No Christian has ever successfully answered Dan Barker's Resurrection Challenge (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?1852-Dan-Barker-s-Resurrection-Challenge). Click the link to see the thread where we have been discussing it and you will see my words are true. So if no Christian can give a coherent account of what supposedly happened, why should anyone believe that it really happened at all?



Not even Jesus by his miracles could convince those who did not want to believe; (Luke 16:31) If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Not even the resurrection of Lazarus and the reports that followed, would make everyone believe. It is not surprising the resurrection of Jesus is not believed by the doubters.

That does not apply to our discussion because we have no evidence that anyone actually rose from the dead. All we have is 2000 year old hearsay that does not cohere with itself. You can't blame me for stating the obvious fact that no one should find such "evidence" to be convincing.



For the most part, the teaching, which Jesus received, came from the preserved scriptures. Jesus read and understood those scriptures. Jesus recognized the prophecies relating to him. Almost on every page of the OT (the scriptures) there is something to identify Jesus. Jesus is; The Prophet, the Messiah, the Christ, the Son of God, which was to come.

That's eisogesis (reading into Scripture things that are not there). You won't find Jesus if you do real exegesis of the text. The NT writers ripped verses out of context and applied them to Jesus in an entirely unjustifiable manner. The most obvious case is Isaiah 7:14. First, it doesn't even use the Hebrew word for "virgin" (b'tulah) and second, it had absolutely nothing to do with any "messiah" that would come some 700 years later. The NT is full of errors like this.



Hence, there is enough evidence to persuade me of the unshakable belief, which the apostle Paul had also when he wrote.

Actually, you have shown no evidence at all. You have nothing but "faith" which you confuse with "evidence". Answer me this - suppose you were a Muslim believing the Quran "by faith". How would you tell the difference between truth and falsehood?

All the best,

Richard

Timmy
11-11-2013, 12:43 PM
[w/o edit]

:icon_hello:Aloha Big Kahuna:yo:

Waka waka eh eh, so a big apology for not answering back about everything...yet.
(Which reminds me being negligent owing Shoshanah further explanation on the proof of evolution thread.)

There is so much here to cover considering how you broke everything down, and because of this, it will not be so simple to answer you without lengthy responses over many of your points of concern.

I will attempt as time affords, to give answers as best can be done. This misal is only response in answer to the first point. The thing is, this is not hardly half of what could be said concerning these issues.
(It is hoped this is not yet another thread that will fall by the wayside for Timmy's busyness, only to be incompletely answered and forgotten for things in front of this face.)



Skepticism concerning "the chosen in the way" reminds me of the "parable" Y'shua told of a specific rich man and Eleazer, where this rich man wanting to warn five brothers, finds out it doesn't work like that:

“...and being in torment in Hades, he looked up and saw Avraham a long way off, with Eliazar at his side. ‘Avi Avraham! ’ he called out, ‘Have mercy on me and send Eliazar to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this flame! ’
“ ‘Son,’ Avraham said, ‘remember that during your life you received your good things, just as Eliazar received bad things, but now he is comforted here, while you are in agony. Besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that those who want to pass over from here to you cannot; neither can those from there cross over to us. ’

“ ‘Avi,’ he said, ‘then I beg you to send him to my father’s house — because I have five brothers — to warn them, so they won’t also come to this place of torment. ’

“But Avraham said, ‘They have Moshe and the Nevi'im; they should listen to them. ’

“ ‘No, Avraham Avi,’ he said. ‘But if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent. ’

“But he told him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moshe and the Nevi'im, they shall not be convinced if someone rises from the dead. ’”

I could waste efforts trying to convince people with what seems spectacular...i could tell others that on The Best of Authority they could be shown how what they proclaim to be Biblical is completely off base and it does no good.

So, usually such things remain unmentioned as our experiences have little bearing at all as a basis for truth. Instead, attempt is made to explain things clearly as can be done by me, and whoever reads can take it from there, or as is more often than not the case, forget what is shown.

These are things that must be individually lived and learned or they mean nothing to any "outsider attempting to peer in. The skeptic such as myself, has even more to contend with, often doubting the reality of whatever preternormal experience...looking perpetually for reasonable explanations based upon the recognized natural laws. When i began studying quantum mechanics, i came to the point of realizing we can't really explain away everything and there is often more afoot than meets the eyes.

Attempting to relate these things is like trying to explain to my dog how to turn a doorknob and open the door himself to come or go by himself instead of coming to me when he wishes to proceed in or out of our home.

(...and this is one reason i am often indifferent about editing, spell checking, or all the rambling speech. Trying to make the text interesting enough to those i care about so that the words can be more than a passing reflection amongst many reflections passing through this medium mirroring our thoughts...and i also expect about as much success in convincing anyone with these words as i do if i were to flap my arms and fly, and yet, if just one thing out from thousands of words sticks in another's craw, maybe i have done my part, maybe they can come know Y'shua as he is, then following His way, His truth, and His life, experience the relationship with Eloheinu they to can live in.




What same elements do you mean?

Believing, without evidence, that what you imagine is real.
It would be my lie to tell you otherwise than your above definition, however what you are thinking in terms of it being imaginary needs to be unpackaged.

Before this type of believing was a normal part of doing--(yet not without basis in physical proof for myself). Even when others consider realities i see as imagined, it has never been a matter of just believing without evidence. If you choose to call what i see imaginings, then this is what it shall be for you, and yet for me, there is no blind leap of faith. Rather, this is a foundational assurance in Y'shua Ha'Mashiach estabtlished, so that His love is not mistaken for what flows out from this: True knowing faith and everything coming from out of this.

Sadly, most people lump many similarities together as one thing, together in a conglomerate of confused ideas and notions without clarity. So they can be noted calling: desire, fear, faith, hope, delusion, anticipation, belief, imagination, passion, and so on by the wrong identifying label. Those who do not distinguish these differences also, more often than not, are usually oblivious to what is lacking in a balance neccesary to move the imagination and emotive faculties to effect.




I was struck dead by a Mercury Lynx auto traveling somewhere between 30-40 mph. Pulled through the wheel well of that economy car. I watched from a distance this body lay on the pavement twitching and bleeding out until biological activity ceased completely and the carcass went cold.

After the doctors had already tagged and covered this flesh giving up on any more attempts to.revive it, my consciousness was carried back against my intent, and forced to return into this--now formerly--mangled and cold body. (Were it not for shreiking from pain, this body would have prolly already have been "put on ice." i had been forced to return being already written off as dead and lifeless 40+ min<--[that being only recorded care time, not before or after]--under professional medical practitioners attempts to bring some spark of life back to such a mauled body.

Later i was visited for a matter of seconds by a "ministering spirit" to quicky show me my wrong, my way to healing, and a promise of Y'shua continuing with me. It was assurance, but i never moreso considered odds to be insurmountable.
(Which reminds me: ???ever seen colored but completely pristine engulfing light, as in no variation of ambience and no shadow can be found in the room???
...and yes, the wheel Ezekiel saw? I do mean a literal ox head.)
This experience in itself made all the intensive care machinery to go on the fritz, and one nurse the whole time i was hospitalized kept on asking what was that bright light comng out from my room that afternoon when she stared it from the nurses station.




The attending specialists, considering my injuries and meeting together determined this body would be recoving in the hospital for at least 18 months, never to walk again and mentally inept...with body functions unpredictably determining unexpected variations regulating bodily functions.

Though fully insured with sufficient cash to receive the best medical attention money could buy, i signed release papers after only a ten day stay in the hospital, was wheelchaired down to the main entrance, stood up to experience tearfully extreme pain, dropped the crutches, and took the first successful steps into.the car awaiting at the hospital entrance to take me home.

Here i was assuming something extremely miraculous would just happen and everything would be better than normal suddenly. Not so.


There was:
--lung and kidney damage;
--bruised visceral organs;
--both wrists sprained;
--a dislocated shoulder
--from head to toe cuts and abrasions,
--a left leg with a snapped fibula and a steel plate supporting an approximate 1.5 to 2.0 in. gap of missing bone with a shattered upper and lower tibia attached together by the metal.
--and, brain damage from a compound fracture that scarred from the outer right temporal lobe all the way into the core functional areas of the lumbar system--(the endocrine system running totally unpredictably and amuck, too).

Recovery was beyond normal thought, and there was a miracle. Never had there been on record a gap in the main bone of the lower leg and it should reform. Facts are, i was playing tennis again after about four months after being hospitalized. Three months later, the steel plate was removed. The following summer my case was taken to a orthopedic convention in Colorado by my doctor who came back telling me all those specialist could find no other explanation except the miraculous.

Cutting short the history, Eloheinu continues to deliver, make whole, and preserve the well-being of my friends, family, and myself...including even the pets we household.


Just curious; but we should of neccessity come straight on perspective here NTL. So, your perspective on what you think is real and what you think is something one would imagine. Also where do you draw the line on what is and is not real if it exists in your imagination.

...and you indicated i put my foot in my mouth? It seems like i did, you're right, but I'm up for the challenge of trying to elucidate something sceintifically undefinable...a rare moment indeed, amd yet there is this question that popped into this noggin after reading your response being responded to in this post.

I'm pretty sure we could both agree that the very basis for what is imagined wells forth from our memories, and only certain constructs of the imagined are not congruent with physical life. A person without looking forward into their past will have less of a basis for "real" imaginings than the one looking behind them into the future.

These perspectives help to determine the reasonability of what is imagined.

For you of all people to perpetually speak about only certain things as just imagination though appears to be almost an oxymoronic statement. Where would you be without your imagination? You use it all the time and imagine many things toward any given purpose you have determined to do. Where did the Bible Wheel come from?

Right now for instance, you are imagining that straight and angled lines connected in certain patterns are symbols signifying letters forming words forming sentences forming ideas forming communication.

What are numbers?

Money is an imagined value given to a round piece of metal, a piece of paper, a piece of plastic, digits in a leger, and so on. ( Need we mention wood, wampum belts, shells, bones, beads and other things that have served the same purpose?)

To think that you would bypass something as merely imagined though? Isn't this more indicative of a personal bias instead of actually disregarding what is imagined.

Without your imagination and the identification ability of your consciousness working together, tell me how many puzzles will you solve and how many things will i invent?

Would you even have your job you thoroughly enjoy if you were to write off the imaginational ascpects of this job, where taking schematic patterns and overlaying them, new solutions are discovered?

Sometimes when you throw that argument out there, "it's imaginary", it is considered by context of when you use it, that it is a blanket statement, yet definitely not true in most instances where the desire is to write something off as insignificant.

So, how do you define reality?
Is it to you only what you can perceive?
Where does reality end and imagination begin...
...or can you accept that imagination and reality are in constant interplay whenever wherever however we choose to do any certain thing?

If you just think aboit the above and consider that not everyone, even in the physical plane, has the same capacity or retention in regard to perception...so what you might consider merely imagined could be true for you, yet not neccessarily true for somebody else.

Remember also my own main stated reason for joining here a few years back, "To see if it could be determined where the anthropomorphism ends, or if it ever does, once they are initiated by an individual as the factor to help comprehend and/or utilize principles and forces existent as real to some and imaginary to others."

(Well, actually, that was just stated more clearly than i have ever tried to explain it, and yet perhaps you had a better idea about this my intent than me all along. No doubt, you note how often i will take what are considered by most to be virtually abstract words and provide (to the best of my ability) parabolic imagery appropriate to the principles afoot when interacting in this forum.

What i am trying to tell you is what is imagination to some is principles in effect and forces at work to others. Just because one person does not perceive these things at the same level hardly means these things are non-existent.

Different people with different perspectives explain such things differently.
(Take note of our varied perspectives on the "Statement of Hope for Harolditic Campingians." Your referece to it is what began volley for this round of conceptual badminton. We both began with two different birdies, came to terms, and each of us is attempting to work within the boundary lines every time the birdie sails back over the net.)

I could tell another there is no such thing as gravity, and if believed, they might or could have a very painful day.

Sometimes when i hear you say that any certain thing is only another's imaginings, i think you could be saying something like a, "there's no such thing as air, so it's alright if you decide to quit breathing. You'll be alright when you quit believing in what I can't measure" kind of thing.

So, in the same vein, though attitude is more permanent than the shifting feelings it induces, does this mean that feelings are any less real than attitude....or is your attitude just your imagination. Is all that just in your head, or is that what causes you to do as you do...and just because it is immaterial, does that make it somehow any less real.

I want you to define your terms of what reality actually is and what part of that reality is only imagined, because otherwise you are just blowing air and nobody actually gets a grip of what you are saying.

Where does physics end and metaphysics begin, Richard?

If a person can imagine and desire something fitting the parameters of their life being lived, who is anyone else to say it is either imaginary or unreal just because of looking at their own existence in less or more restrictive ways.

Bars imprisoning one within certain confines of reasoning via cognitive bias are no sure sign that another is deluded or psychotic.

Personally, it's wondered if failure to realistically negotiate factors of time, space, mass, energy, and the unknown are not much more of a barrier to most who assume the tangible could be more permanant than what holds it all together.

I also wonder if people who do not deal in terms of the unknowns are not just inventing so many excuses to hide their fear or denial of what they cannot control.

Even if a person says something does not exist because they are blind to such unknowns does not change the fact that it exists; and, just because someone chooses not to use ANSI as their standard, and defines something from (oh, let's say) an individual who thinks in terms of a morphic field paradigm, only means that those unfamiliar with that construct and it's means of symbolic representation are probably missing thr forest for the trees, confusing the map for the terrain.

Prejudice man...think about it. Particularly, when anyone considers generalizing things that may appear similar, yet are possibly different. Over exaggerated sweeping blanket statements of generalized epitomes are easily refuted if needful, that is if one need do so.

Ok, so i have given you a varying, perhaps less confining perspective, and i am curious what you think about these rudimentary things before anything else is answered. If you will do as wished, i am sure we might just come to a better picture from one anothers perspective.

Thanks for taking to time to address these very issues in a more communicative fashion instead of just throwing out castigations. What i am actually saying in short is, though our own experiences are valid to us, they do not necessarily reflect reality or truth. When we are sharing back and forth like this, we come to a more cogent way of accounting for things i may not understand about you and vice versa.

Shalom,

Þ.Œ.:sBo_reflection2:

Mystykal
11-12-2013, 12:01 AM
Good morning Mystykal, :yo:

I do not deny the possibility of eternal life. But there is a big difference between possible and probable. And besides, there is a wide variety of possibilities - Hindu reincarnation, Christian resurrection, mystical union with God, etc. So we have a wide range of possibilities with no way to determine which, if any, is true.

You say that eternal life necessitates some variety of a GOD. I don't see the connection. Spiritual life could be just as natural as physical life.

Your main point is epistemological. You are saying that knowledge is a form a faith. There is some truth in that since one of the popular epistemological definitions of truth is "justified true belief." Unfortunately, you are saying believers must FIRST take a leap of faith that their religion is true (be it Islam, Scientology, Mormonism, your version of Christianity, or whatever), and only THEN will they receive subjective "evidence" that justifies their beliefs in their own eyes but gives them NOTHING to justify their beliefs to anyone else. That's the recipe for delusion. Literally. It is literally the recipe for delusion. By that methodology, the believer has no way to know if they are totally deluded or if they have been brainwashed to believe cult teachings, or if they have gone psychotic. Sure, it's also possible that they have discovered the truth, but the odd thing is that they have no way to actually know if they really have or not! I don't see any reason to put myself in such a position.

There also seems to be a big problem with your central claim that everyone should "take God at his word" in the the Bible because you don't seem to do that yourself. On the one hand, you seem to think that the OT is vastly superior to the NT as the "inspired Word of God" while on the other hand you sometimes speak of the NT as if it too were inspired and at other times as if it were not. I've found your position to be altogether confusing and inconsistent. I really have no idea what you believe about the Bible, so neither can I have any idea what you mean when you say that I should "take God at his word."

You say that the "verification process is not presently availablein the physical sense." Very true! And its also true that it is not available in an intellectual sense or any other sense that I know of. So here is the question that you must answer. It is the central question that I have been asking you for many months: How does one discern between truth and error in their religion if they simply accept their holy book on faith? How does one discern between Islam, Mormonism, Scientology, and the ten thousand varieties of Christianity if there is no "verification process" of anything anyone says?

And why would you take anyone's word on mere faith? Especially the word of a religious teacher, since we know that religious teachers are at the absolute BOTTOM of integrity and trustworthiness? The truth is that dogmatic religions - religions that must be accepted on faith - tend to corrupt the minds and morals of believers. Therefore, religion is the LAST place anyone should put their faith.

Great chatting!

Richards

Hi Richard:

Thank you for your response! I really liked it! I think your insistence that I am not answering your questions iis false. It's more like you are just side-stepping my answers because for you they do not agree with your somewhat illogical logic.
First of all I do not think that the definition of faith from the dictoionary is Gospel truth! The whole idea of faith v/s belief is not well defined by most People. The ideas that the devils "believe" but are "lost" (Biblical view) suggests that there is a difference between the two terms. Your idea that they are the same and unprovable is a false claim... Here is why.

You said "So here is the question that you must answer. It is the central question that I have been asking you for many months: How does one discern between truth and error in their religion if they simply accept their holy book on faith? How does one discern between Islam, Mormonism, Scientology, and the ten thousand varieties of Christianity if there is no "verification process" of anything anyone says? "

And my answer to that is we know the difference between truth and error by the Physical Manifestation of the Divine. In other words when GOD speaks in a direct way to people or a person the "Moses' rod made into a living serpent" effect takes place. This phenonmenon convinced Pharoh in theory and has always been the sign which follows the True messenger of GOD. So the false leaders also have power but their power falls short of the true signs and wonders which the people of GOD have.

So without the physical signs and wonders you must conclude that the potential for following a false religion is very high. The whole issue of the supernatural acts of GOD/Devil is to get the attention of people. To prove their power and position.
"And there was war in heaven." Michael and his angels fought the devil and his angels... This scenario is played out on a daily basis here on earth. The fight is real. You may not see it simply because it is not your time...

But to say that this is not a fact is to be quite ignorant of the world around you. I insist that you take a closer look at the real supernatural world and stop acting like it is all a fraud. I cannot say it enough that the GOD the true GOD will show themselves soon in a way which no one will be able to deny. All the false prophets and their followers will be exterminated. This idea is clearly taught in the Bible and other religious books. So aligning yourself with the true GOD is critical to long term survival...

The meditative process if done correctly will always bring you face to face with the Great Mystery aka GOD! Different religions are not so much about right "GOD" or wrong "GOD" but more about wrong leaders. The process to finding GOD is the same... The details only matter in the big picture of the salvation process as it exists. Taking GOD at His Word does not mean you blindly accept all WRITINGs... The Word of GOD is only SPIRITUALLY discerned! You must study to find the actual truth in the Word!

You Said, "Your main point is epistemological. You are saying that knowledge is a form a faith. There is some truth in that since one of the popular epistemological definitions of truth is "justified true belief." Unfortunately, you are saying believers must FIRST take a leap of faith that their religion is true (be it Islam, Scientology, Mormonism, your version of Christianity, or whatever), and only THEN will they receive subjective "evidence" that justifies their beliefs in their own eyes but gives them NOTHING to justify their beliefs to anyone else. That's the recipe for delusion. Literally. It is literally the recipe for delusion. By that methodology, the believer has no way to know if they are totally deluded or if they have been brainwashed to believe cult teachings, or if they have gone psychotic.

Well, I guess according to that argument then you don't have any way of knowing anything! However, personal experience has shown us that when one meditates the actualization of the real comes through, no matter the person! The process is no respector of persons. But you must be willing to take the time to learn and experience the process. I can't give you faith. Only GOD can! The only way to live life is to know the Sprirtual aspects of it.



Namaste,

Mystykal