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Beck
08-11-2012, 06:45 PM
When we say that Adam was cursed to till the ground and eat from it and also that he will return to the ground. Futurist and some Preterist attemp to read this literal in the sence that man will die and return to dust. I wonder if this is the case? I mean when I read the creation account I tend to see alot of figurative language and symbolism. I looked up DUST which is (Strong's H6083 - `aphar ) meaning DRY EARTH OR DRY LAND. I also looked up GROUND which is (Strong's H127 - 'adamah ) meaning EARTH, LAND OR TERRITORY.



Genesis 3:17
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


Taking these words into consideration would it rather be speaking that Adam was to be put out of the Garden of Eden which would be him returning to the dust, ground, territory outside of the garden instead of man dieing and returning to dust. Noting that the land outside of the garden was dry land.

I guess it's all in how you want to read this creation story.

weeder
08-11-2012, 09:10 PM
How could Adam return to a place that he had never been.?
He originated in Eden.

sylvius
08-11-2012, 10:25 PM
How could Adam return to a place that he had never been.?
He originated in Eden.

He didn't originate in Eden.

Genesis 2:8,
And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden from the east, and He placed there the man whom He had formed.

You might ask: "from the east", what does that mean?

Hebrew מִקֶּדֶם, "mikedem".

Rashi:

from the east: Heb. מִקֶּדֶם. In the east of Eden, He planted the garden (Midrash Konen). Now if you ask: It has already been stated (above 1:27): “And He created man, etc.!” I saw in the Baraitha of Rabbi Eliezer the son of Rabbi Jose the Galilean concerning the thirty-two principles by which the Torah is expounded, and this is one of them [method 13]: A general statement followed by a specific act, the latter constitutes a specific [clarification] of the first [general statement]. “And He created man.” This is a general statement. It left obscure whence he was created, and it left His deeds obscure [i.e., how God created man]. The text repeats and explains: “And the Lord God formed, etc.,” and He made the Garden of Eden grow for him, and He placed him in the Garden of Eden, and He caused a deep sleep to fall upon him. The listener may think that this is another story, but it is only the detailed account of the former. Likewise, in the case of the animal, Scripture repeats and writes (below verse 19): “And the Lord God formed from the ground all the beasts of the field,” in order to explain, “and He brought [them] to man” to name them, and to teach about the fowl, that they were created from the mud.

In the east of Eden = במזרחו של עדן , "b'mizracho shel Eden".
"Mizrach" = orient , from "zarach"= to shine, rise, glow

When Adam was expelled from the garden it states, Genesis 2:23,
And the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden, to till the soil, whence he had been taken
which implies that he wasn't taken from the soil of the garden.

Next v.24,
And He drove the man out, and He stationed at the east of the Garden of Eden the cherubim and the blade of the revolving sword, to guard the way to the Tree of Life

"at the east of the garden of Eden"
Hebrew: מִקֶּדֶם לְגַן עֵדֶן , "mikedem l'gan Eden".
Rashi:

במזרחו של גן עדן, חוץ לגן, "b'mizracho shel gan Eden, chuts lagan" , eastward of the garden of Eden, outside the garden.

From which I do derive that the garden lies in the west.

"Morgenland" has this double meaning too.

"olam haba" = the coming world.

We orientate on it.

The way through the temple also goes from the east unto the west. The holy of holies lying in the west.
Jesus' way up to Jerusalem also was a way from the east tio the west,
Mark 10:

32 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him,

33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:

34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

weeder
08-11-2012, 10:40 PM
He didn't originate in Eden.

Genesis 2:8,
And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden from the east, and He placed there the man whom He had formed.

You might ask: "from the east", what does that mean?

Hebrew מִקֶּדֶם, "mikedem".

Rashi:


In the east of Eden = במזרחו של עדן , "b'mizracho shel Eden".
"Mizrach" = orient , from "zarach"= to shine, rise, glow

When Adam was expelled from the garden it states, Genesis 2:23,
And the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden, to till the soil, whence he had been taken
which implies that he wasn't taken from the soil of the garden.

[/I]


Whatever soil he was taken from......,that soil was not under any curse. So how could he return to something accursed.?

sylvius
08-11-2012, 11:23 PM
Whatever soil he was taken from......,that soil was not under any curse. So how could he return to something accursed.?

Or cursed from the beginning

weeder
08-11-2012, 11:41 PM
Or cursed from the beginning

Im led to believe that all was Good, very good in fact.

sylvius
08-12-2012, 12:27 AM
Im led to believe that all was Good, very good in fact.

Genesis 3:17
And to man He said, "Because you listened to your wife, and you ate from the tree from which I commanded you saying, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed be the ground for your sake; with toil shall you eat of it all the days of your life.

"cursed be the ground for your sake"

אֲרוּרָה הָאֲדָמָה בַּעֲבוּרֶךָ

"arurah haadamah ba'avurecha"

"ba'avur" is not causal.

It is not: "because of your sin the earth is cursed"

cf. Genesis 26:24,
And the Lord appeared to him on that night and said, "I am the God of Abraham, your father. Fear not, for I am with you, and I will bless you and multiply your seed for the sake of Abraham, My servant."

"for the sake of Abraham"= בַּעֲבוּר אַבְרָהָם , "ba'avur avraham"

The ground being cursed being (kind of) a favor!

David M
08-12-2012, 01:15 AM
Here is my contribution to the discussion.

Everything is made up of the same elements. Take away water and you have dry elements. Dust earth is an extremely complex mixture of elements and chemical compounds made up of elements. In a closed system nothing enters or escapes so we are what we return to what we have been made from, the elements of the earth including water.

Genesis 3
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The curse on the ground is the "thorns and thistles". If you are a gardener you will know what a pain it is to deal with this type of plant that grows up amongst the plants you want to cultivate. Weeds are just plants in the wrong place. It is pain taking out the weeds before planting and while the cultivated plants grow. These is not feasible on the grand scale of growing crops in the field which is why the tares (weeds) are left to grow with the crop and get separated out when the crop is harvested.

God will do His own "weeding out" when He gathers in the crop (those He wants to save) and as in the parable spoken by Jesus, when the tares will be separated from the wheat.


David

sylvius
08-12-2012, 02:17 AM
Here is my contribution to the discussion.

Everything is made up of the same elements. Take away water and you have dry elements. Dust earth is an extremely complex mixture of elements and chemical compounds made up of elements. In a closed system nothing enters or escapes so we are what we return to what we have been made from, the elements of the earth including water.

Genesis 3
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The curse on the ground is the "thorns and thistles". If you are a gardener you will know what a pain it is to deal with this type of plant that grows up amongst the plants you want to cultivate. Weeds are just plants in the wrong place. It is pain taking out the weeds before planting and while the cultivated plants grow. These is not feasible on the grand scale of growing crops in the field which is why the tares (weeds) are left to grow with the crop and get separated out when the crop is harvested.

God will do His own "weeding out" when He gathers in the crop (those He wants to save) and as in the parable spoken by Jesus, when the tares will be separated from the wheat.


David

"The tares" = zizanion

ζιζάνιον,n \{dziz-an'-ee-on}
1) a kind of darnel, resembling wheat except the grains are black

Which works hallucinating.

Seems to have be well-known, until the middle-ages.

There are also other names for it, that I do not remember so quick.

John, the writer of Revelation, is suspect of having used it a little too much,

That's why Revelation is also called "Hallucinations of John".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolium_temulentum


The French word for darnel is ivraie (from Latin ebriacus, intoxicated), which expresses that weed's characteristic of making one feel poisoned with drunkenness, and can cause death. This characteristic is also alluded to in the scientific name (Latin temulentus = drunk).

sylvius
08-12-2012, 06:01 AM
http://wilde-planten.nl/dolik.htm

https://public.sn2.livefilestore.com/y1pshZoFgRB3ZPAEKAsY3RO7yNoGpHP8jYEBMOYwN6VB7FcU_2 9av1AepsiffjoQr5NAGKwJOXKwr7g4VAqDZju-g/dolik1.jpg

In Dutch it is called dolik, or bedwelmend raaigras (stunning darnel)

German Tollkorn oder Tollhafer.

(dol or Toll = mad)

Beck
08-12-2012, 12:27 PM
He didn't originate in Eden.

Genesis 2:8,
And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden from the east, and He placed there the man whom He had formed.

You might ask: "from the east", what does that mean?

Hebrew מִקֶּדֶם, "mikedem".

Rashi:


In the east of Eden = במזרחו של עדן , "b'mizracho shel Eden".
"Mizrach" = orient , from "zarach"= to shine, rise, glow

When Adam was expelled from the garden it states, Genesis 2:23,
And the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden, to till the soil, whence he had been taken
which implies that he wasn't taken from the soil of the garden.

Next v.24,
And He drove the man out, and He stationed at the east of the Garden of Eden the cherubim and the blade of the revolving sword, to guard the way to the Tree of Life

"at the east of the garden of Eden"
Hebrew: מִקֶּדֶם לְגַן עֵדֶן , "mikedem l'gan Eden".
Rashi:


From which I do derive that the garden lies in the west.

"Morgenland" has this double meaning too.

"olam haba" = the coming world.

We orientate on it.

The way through the temple also goes from the east unto the west. The holy of holies lying in the west.
Jesus' way up to Jerusalem also was a way from the east tio the west,
Mark 10:

32 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him,

33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:

34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Hi sylvius,

This is what I see when I read Genesis 3:17 as well, thanks. Something we might also see a connection to is the reference to EARTH being the DRY LAND from which God removed the DEEP which was DARKNESS. This dry land or earth is what man 'Adam' is created and formed from. I would also notices that the meaning of Adam (Strong's H120 - 'adam ) isn't only man, but RED OR THE IDEA OF REDNESS. If we take these connections of Adam is to be created from the Dry Land and is Red...has redness the idea of Adam being formed from Clay. Which in itself is spoken of the people of Israel as being clay in the potters hand. This idea of 'Adam' meaning Israel that was given the knowledge of God's word yet followed after other gods in disobedence was put out of the promised land (garden of eden) and lead captive unto the nations.

sylvius
08-12-2012, 12:52 PM
Hi sylvius,

This is what I see when I read Genesis 3:17 as well, thanks. Something we might also see a connection to is the reference to EARTH being the DRY LAND from which God removed the DEEP which was DARKNESS. This dry land or earth is what man 'Adam' is created and formed from. I would also notices that the meaning of Adam (Strong's H120 - 'adam ) isn't only man, but RED OR THE IDEA OF REDNESS. If we take these connections of Adam is to be created from the Dry Land and is Red...has redness the idea of Adam being formed from Clay. Which in itself is spoken of the people of Israel as being clay in the potters hand. This idea of 'Adam' meaning Israel that was given the knowledge of God's word yet followed after other gods in disobedence was put out of the promised land (garden of eden) and lead captive unto the nations.

"Dry land" = Hebrew "yabashah"

Genesis 1:9,
And God said, "Let the water that is beneath the heavens gather into one place, and let the dry land appear," and it was so.

Seems to be something unsoluble in water.

Water is symbol of time (which follows from Genesis 2:5-6, nothing had yet grown -- growth being a process in time -- until a mist went up from the earth.)
So "dry land" is eternal.
And also "dust".

Beck
08-12-2012, 02:16 PM
"Dry land" = Hebrew "yabashah"

Genesis 1:9,
And God said, "Let the water that is beneath the heavens gather into one place, and let the dry land appear," and it was so.

Seems to be something unsoluble in water.

Water is symbol of time (which follows from Genesis 2:5-6, nothing had yet grown -- growth being a process in time -- until a mist went up from the earth.)
So "dry land" is eternal.
And also "dust".

Never considered 'water' as a symbol of time...but considered it to symbolize the 'deep, bottomless, darkness, and peoples, nations and tongues'. This seems to be the implication of the flood of Noah that flood waters came upon the land and consumed all the uncleanness. In one sence water came to purify and make clean on the other side it came to destory. We can see that this is how Jesus imployed the living waters that he had it would either wash you clean or destroy you. It is also the implication in Revelation of wormwood that turned the water into bitter water.(Rev.8:10-11)

sylvius
08-12-2012, 11:57 PM
Never considered 'water' as a symbol of time...but considered it to symbolize the 'deep, bottomless, darkness, and peoples, nations and tongues'. This seems to be the implication of the flood of Noah that flood waters came upon the land and consumed all the uncleanness. In one sence water came to purify and make clean on the other side it came to destory. We can see that this is how Jesus imployed the living waters that he had it would either wash you clean or destroy you. It is also the implication in Revelation of wormwood that turned the water into bitter water.(Rev.8:10-11)


Interesting is that the Hebrew word used for "blot out" can also mean "dissolve". (מחה machah)

Genesis 8:7,
And the Lord said, "I will dissolve man, whom I created, from upon the face of the earth, from man to cattle to creeping thing, to the fowl of the heavens, for I regret that I made them."

Next v.8:
And Noach found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

That you might think that the finding of "chen", favor, in fact is the realization of "luz", little bone that cannot decay ( dissolve) and from which man is resurrected.


Not dissolve in time:
there is a hard core in it.
In fact "the word" --
Isaiah 40:8,
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth; but the word of our God shall stand for ever.'


1 Corinthians
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

See also:

The-four-times-eileh-toldot-and-resurrection (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?149006-The-four-times-quot-eileh-toldot-quot-and-resurrection)

And note Genesis 5:29,
And he named him Noach, saying, "This one will give us rest from our work and from the toil of our hands from the ground, which the Lord has cursed."

ICW Genesis 3:19,
With the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, until you return to the ground, for you were taken therefrom, for dust you are, and to dust you will return."


In the case of the formation of the animals "dust" is not mentioned:

Genesis 2:19,
And the Lord God formed from the earth every beast of the field and every fowl of the heavens

So "dust" indeed seems to be something special!

Genesis 28:14,
And your seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and you shall gain strength westward and eastward and northward and southward; and through you shall be blessed all the families of the earth and through your seed

David M
08-13-2012, 01:36 AM
Here are a few extra thoughts I have had by the conversation so far.

Dust (as complex as this is) is about 15% of person's body. Likewise plants contain much more water than dust. God used water in the process of Creation. Hence the "water of life". Water is essential to sustaining life.

In man's quest to find other planets that has life or had life, scientists are looking for evidence of water.

The creation story has to be told simply or else we would spend all our time learning of how the earth was designed or how it came to self-form. God either chose a unique planet or He had to design a unique planet to sustain life. There are so many factors involving the sun, moon and the make up of the earth, there has to be an element of design involved of which we are not told about and it is not necessary to for us to know.

From this primordial soup dust, water, electricity (lightening) and heat, Evolutionists think all life was formed. Man is unable to replicate the evolutionary process so it remains a theory. A potter uses water to fashion clay and indeed clay in its raw state has water contained in it. Only when the clay is fired and most of the water is driven off does the clay become dry and brittle. We might think that rock and things like bricks are dry products yet they contain a small percentage of water.

If we mix dust with water we get mud. Jesus mixed water and dust to form mud which he put on the eyelids of the blind man. Was the mud instrumental in curing the man of his blindness?

Are we making spiritual mud by mixing spiritual water with spiritual dust?

All the best,

David

sylvius
08-13-2012, 02:28 AM
Here I wrote some on "arets"= earth:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?135291-The-7th-%28-8th-%29-word-of-the-Bible-quot-Haarets-quot-The-earth

duxrow
08-13-2012, 04:32 AM
Here are a few extra thoughts I have had by the conversation so far.

Dust (as complex as this is) is about 15% of person's body. Likewise plants contain much more water than dust. God used water in the process of Creation. Hence the "water of life". Water is essential to sustaining life.

In man's quest to find other planets that has life or had life, scientists are looking for evidence of water.
They're looking for liquid water (maybe will find some), but the "spiritual water" metaphor is from the Bible.
The creation story has to be told simply or else we would spend all our time learning of how the earth was designed or how it came to self-form. God either chose a unique planet or He had to design a unique planet to sustain life. There are so many factors involving the sun, moon and the make up of the earth, there has to be an element of design involved of which we are not told about and it is not necessary to for us to know.

From this primordial soup dust, water, electricity (lightening) and heat, Evolutionists think all life was formed. Man is unable to replicate the evolutionary process so it remains a theory. A potter uses water to fashion clay and indeed clay in its raw state has water contained in it. Only when the clay is fired and most of the water is driven off does the clay become dry and brittle. We might think that rock and things like bricks are dry products yet they contain a small percentage of water.

If we mix dust with water we get mud. Jesus mixed water and dust to form mud which he put on the eyelids of the blind man. Was the mud instrumental in curing the man of his blindness?

Are we making spiritual mud by mixing spiritual water with spiritual dust? All the best,

David:anim_32:

Hey David, Have you considered this angle:

Jesus to Peter before his conversion was like 'powder' to be sifted by satan and 'blown around with winds of..'

Maybe more like 'flour' for making Bread (like Him), but the only flour found is "Lily and Rose of Sharon". :lol:

The Holy Spirit 'poured out' at Pentacost... like 'water'?

Then Peter (and others like him) become 'lumps', no longer blown around with winds of other doctrines.

You think? :thumb:

Beck
08-13-2012, 03:20 PM
Here are a few extra thoughts I have had by the conversation so far.

Dust (as complex as this is) is about 15% of person's body. Likewise plants contain much more water than dust. God used water in the process of Creation. Hence the "water of life". Water is essential to sustaining life.

In man's quest to find other planets that has life or had life, scientists are looking for evidence of water.

The creation story has to be told simply or else we would spend all our time learning of how the earth was designed or how it came to self-form. God either chose a unique planet or He had to design a unique planet to sustain life. There are so many factors involving the sun, moon and the make up of the earth, there has to be an element of design involved of which we are not told about and it is not necessary to for us to know.

From this primordial soup dust, water, electricity (lightening) and heat, Evolutionists think all life was formed. Man is unable to replicate the evolutionary process so it remains a theory. A potter uses water to fashion clay and indeed clay in its raw state has water contained in it. Only when the clay is fired and most of the water is driven off does the clay become dry and brittle. We might think that rock and things like bricks are dry products yet they contain a small percentage of water.

If we mix dust with water we get mud. Jesus mixed water and dust to form mud which he put on the eyelids of the blind man. Was the mud instrumental in curing the man of his blindness?

Are we making spiritual mud by mixing spiritual water with spiritual dust?

All the best,

David


:anim_32:

Hey David, Have you considered this angle:

Jesus to Peter before his conversion was like 'powder' to be sifted by satan and 'blown around with winds of..'

Maybe more like 'flour' for making Bread (like Him), but the only flour found is "Lily and Rose of Sharon". :lol:

The Holy Spirit 'poured out' at Pentacost... like 'water'?

Then Peter (and others like him) become 'lumps', no longer blown around with winds of other doctrines.

You think? :thumb:

Hey David, sylvius and duxrow

I like the connections you are making... I would think that 'dust' is simply man without the spirit of life. It seems man came from a the dry earth and was cursed to go back. Therefore God told Adam that the day that he ate of the forbiden fruit that he was certainly die 'surely die'. As you might have noticed the garden of eden had four rivers of water....it wasn't dry...it had plenty of water (spirit of life).

duxrow
08-14-2012, 04:54 AM
Hey David, sylvius and duxrow

I like the connections you are making... I would think that 'dust' is simply man without the spirit of life. It seems man came from a the dry earth and was cursed to go back. Therefore God told Adam that the day that he ate of the forbiden fruit that he was certainly die 'surely die'. As you might have noticed the garden of eden had four rivers of water....it wasn't dry...it had plenty of water (spirit of life).
:typing:
The Four Rivers a type and PRECEPT of the Four Gospels, doncha think? Or maybe not, since only two of them Tigris and Euphrates still on the front burner..:winking0071:

sylvius
08-14-2012, 05:38 AM
:typing:
The Four Rivers a type and PRECEPT of the Four Gospels, doncha think? Or maybe not, since only two of them Tigris and Euphrates still on the front burner..:winking0071:Four rivers flowing from one, the one river separating into four heads.

The one encompassing all the land of Chavilah where is the gold and the chrystal and the onyx stone.

Chavilah = Biblewheel?
(Chawheelah)

And what is the one Gospel?

duxrow
08-14-2012, 07:23 AM
:sBo_reflection2:The source is God -- Jer2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

Two of the 4 gospels kept on flowing in a sense; Luke and John wrote other books..:yo:

sylvius
08-14-2012, 01:11 PM
:sBo_reflection2:The source is God -- Jer2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

Two of the 4 gospels kept on flowing in a sense; Luke and John wrote other books..:yo:

LXX Jeremiah 2:13 uses for source πηγὴ, "pègè", πηγὴ ὕδατος ζωὴς, "pègè hudatos dzoès"

John 4:6 has: πηγὴ ὕδατος ἁλλομένου εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον, "pègè hudatos allomenou eis dzoèn aionion"

This same word πηγὴ is used in LXX to translate Hebrew "ed" in Genesis 2:6,

πηγὴ δὲ ἀνέβαινεν ἐκ τῆς γῆς καὶ ἐπότιζεν πᾶν τὸ πρόσωπον τῆς γῆς,
"pègè de anebainen ek tès gès kai epotidzen pan to prosopen tès gès"
"and a fountain went up out of the earth en gave drink the whole face of the earth"

Stupefying, ain't it?
(since πηγὴ translates Hebrew אֵד, "ed", in numbers "1-4".

But what to think of Matthew 25:35?
ἐδίψησα καὶ ἐποτίσατέ με, "edipèsa kai epotisate me" , I was thirsty and you gave me drink :confused:

Beck
08-16-2012, 04:01 PM
:typing:
The Four Rivers a type and PRECEPT of the Four Gospels, doncha think? Or maybe not, since only two of them Tigris and Euphrates still on the front burner..:winking0071:

Well actually the Four Rivers of Eden imply the four directions, east, west, north and south. If the Garden of Eden represents the promise land of Israel then it would represent the four directions (four corners of the earth). I really don't see any connection to the four gospels. Although the rivers might symbolize water spritiually as in bring life to the garden and outside the garden was dry land. To which Adam were casted out of the garden of life unto the dry land of death.

sylvius
08-16-2012, 11:21 PM
Well actually the Four Rivers of Eden imply the four directions, east, west, north and south. If the Garden of Eden represents the promise land of Israel then it would represent the four directions (four corners of the earth). I really don't see any connection to the four gospels. Although the rivers might symbolize water spritiually as in bring life to the garden and outside the garden was dry land. To which Adam were casted out of the garden of life unto the dry land of death.

The mist, "ed", of Genesis 2:6, translated in LXX as "pègè", source, fountain, might be well the source of the one river that seperates into four heads.

So then God planted the garden right on the spot where the mist went up.

And you even might think that the source of the river is right in the middle of the garden.

Right in the place where he caused to grow (both) the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Strange thing:
Gematria of "tree of life", עֵץ הַחַיִּים , is 233
and gematria of "tree of knowledge of good and evil", עֵץ הַדַּעַת טוֹב וָרָע, is 932.
233 :932 being 1:4.

From this I do read that the garden (like the earth) has four corners and forms a square, like also the final-mem, as written in the Ashuri script, does.

Even there are five letters in Hebrew alphabet that know a final-form.
Four of them having an outstretched form (kaf-nun-pey-tsade) and one (mem) the form of a square,
so also expressing a 1-4 pattern.


Even Hebrew "arba" = four, shows something like that,
"arba" gematria 273 = 21 x 13,
while 13 = "echad", one.
(21 being gematria of "ehyeh"= I am; 273 being also gematria of "rega"= indivisible moment, smallest unit of time (fraction of a second) - Paul's mystery (1Corinthians 15:51-52).

EndtimesDeut32/70AD
10-09-2012, 02:41 PM
This is one to take note of again. The earth has already be relieved of the curse ascribed to Adam/Eve through the flood.


And note Genesis 5:29,
And he named him Noach, saying, "This one will give us rest from our work and from the toil of our hands from the ground, which the Lord has cursed."

Also; through faith in Christ as the seed promised to Eve, the curse of the law of sin/death is removed/canceled and the curse of the law of moses is ended with it's removal. Rom 8:2 and Rev 22:


22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.