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Rose
07-24-2012, 01:07 PM
If there is a God, and there is a judgment day after death, I think that God will applaud all of those who refused to condone and justify biblical violence, or accept the abuse attributed to God’s name via the Bible. If a God exists, compassion and kindness will be the hallmarks of his/her name, not whether someone praised and worshiped a biblical portrayal of an ill tempered god that demanded to be glorified for atrocious behavior. People who stand up for the equal rights of all humans and used their intellect to help a suffering world will be the ones who are rewarded for a job well done, whether or not they acknowledge the existence of a specific god recorded in the pages of the Bible.

It seems many of the teachings of the Bible focus on the praise, adoration and worship of its god at the expense of empathy, and the priorities of equal human justice. Goodness and respect is lost, replaced with the perverse idea of denying people equality based on their gender. What seems to be forgotten in the minds of those who are steeped in religious dogma, is that the ideals of true morality and compassion are acted out in the lives of countless individuals, who let their actions speak instead of the proclamations of a tribal god. They are the ones who should receive the highest praise and the greatest reward at judgment day whether or not an expression of acknowledgment was given to a particular imaginary god. No true god would ever create life on a foundation of inequality; any such endeavor is doomed to fail which is abundantly clear when we look at the course that history has taken when these biblical practices of injustice have been implemented.


Rose

Mystykal
08-11-2013, 05:27 PM
If there is a God, and there is a judgment day after death, I think that God will applaud all of those who refused to condone and justify biblical violence, or accept the abuse attributed to God’s name via the Bible. If a God exists, compassion and kindness will be the hallmarks of his/her name, not whether someone praised and worshiped a biblical portrayal of an ill tempered god that demanded to be glorified for atrocious behavior. People who stand up for the equal rights of all humans and used their intellect to help a suffering world will be the ones who are rewarded for a job well done, whether or not they acknowledge the existence of a specific god recorded in the pages of the Bible.

It seems many of the teachings of the Bible focus on the praise, adoration and worship of its god at the expense of empathy, and the priorities of equal human justice. Goodness and respect is lost, replaced with the perverse idea of denying people equality based on their gender. What seems to be forgotten in the minds of those who are steeped in religious dogma, is that the ideals of true morality and compassion are acted out in the lives of countless individuals, who let their actions speak instead of the proclamations of a tribal god. They are the ones who should receive the highest praise and the greatest reward at judgment day whether or not an expression of acknowledgment was given to a particular imaginary god. No true god would ever create life on a foundation of inequality; any such endeavor is doomed to fail which is abundantly clear when we look at the course that history has taken when these biblical practices of injustice have been implemented.


Rose

Hi Rose:
I know Richard does not believe in a Satan/Devil per se.... And maybe you don't as well. But isn't it POSSIBLE that all the "bad" things attributed to GOD in the Bible could have ACTUALLY been the work of the Devil? Why do you insist on a narrow understanding of the stories which you admit are myths and then you act like GOD is the origin of evil deeds done in the name of GOD! Perhaps the evil attributed to GOD is in fact the work of Satan the "accuser of the brethren".
GOD IS Love! GOD is good....All The Time!

Just a thought...

Namaste,

Mystykal

David M
08-11-2013, 06:51 PM
If there is a God, and there is a judgment day after death, I think that God will applaud all of those who refused to condone and justify biblical violence, or accept the abuse attributed to God’s name via the Bible. If a God exists, compassion and kindness will be the hallmarks of his/her name, not whether someone praised and worshiped a biblical portrayal of an ill tempered god that demanded to be glorified for atrocious behavior. People who stand up for the equal rights of all humans and used their intellect to help a suffering world will be the ones who are rewarded for a job well done, whether or not they acknowledge the existence of a specific god recorded in the pages of the Bible.

It seems many of the teachings of the Bible focus on the praise, adoration and worship of its god at the expense of empathy, and the priorities of equal human justice. Goodness and respect is lost, replaced with the perverse idea of denying people equality based on their gender. What seems to be forgotten in the minds of those who are steeped in religious dogma, is that the ideals of true morality and compassion are acted out in the lives of countless individuals, who let their actions speak instead of the proclamations of a tribal god. They are the ones who should receive the highest praise and the greatest reward at judgment day whether or not an expression of acknowledgment was given to a particular imaginary god. No true god would ever create life on a foundation of inequality; any such endeavor is doomed to fail which is abundantly clear when we look at the course that history has taken when these biblical practices of injustice have been implemented.


Rose

Hello Rose
The subject of inequality is a study of its own. In the plan of God there is no inequality ultimately. You are familiar with the quote from Galations 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Being in Christ now in this life is to bring equality. This is in keeping with the words of Jesus concerning resurrection (Matt 22:30); For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
. For marriage not to be necessary, there must be no differentiation of sex, therefore they will all will be the same.

Given that we are moving towards true equality not differentiated by sex but all being the same (sexless?) we have a situation where it was necessary for God to make male and female. Even in the animal kingdom, the male and the female of the species have anatomical differences. We are scratching at the surface of God's wisdom in unravelling the mysteries of how things work (biologically speaking). We also know that there are wide differences between different men and different women and a certain amount of overlap in which men can be effeminate and some women appear masculin. We know we can alter the balance by changing the level of hormones.

In one way, though sexually different and exhibiting feminine and masculin quatlies in both sexes, the one thing that unites us is our ability to reason. We all have brains that function the same. We all can choose to do something or not do something. When it comes to pleasing ourselves, our sex does not play a part. We can all choose whether to have the mind of Christ and the advantages that can bring to society or we can choose to please ourselves and been like those who Paul advised young Timothy to turn away from (2Tim 3:2); For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

First of all, you have to blame most of the evil in this world to man. It is man who sinned first and brought the penalty of death on himself. God is the righteous judge and sets the penalty and administers justice. This is the part you distort in order to justify blaming God. I am responsible for my own actions and it would be a mistake for me to blame God for the bad things that happen to me because of the decision I made. I blame men for the ills and their wrong doing against me which can have long-term consequences. I do not blame God for that which man must be blamed for.

When God gives up on people for being reprobates, that must tell us something about those people. Are you now a reprobate in God eyes? You act as though you could be in my eyes. There is opportunity for you to see the error of your thinking and repent. It is entirely up to you. Whatever you decide to do and do, it will not in any way divert God from his plan and the purpose he has for this earth and the creation upon it. That is something we can all be a part of and it is our choice, once we know, whether to accept it or reject it. By comparison, what God has on offer for the future outweighs anything that has happened in the past for which you blame God. God is far wiser than you can even imagine and compared to man's wisdom, man's wisdom is as nothing.

All the best
David

Mystykal
08-11-2013, 07:14 PM
Hello Rose
The subject of inequality is a study of its own. In the plan of God there is no inequality ultimately. You are familiar with the quote from Galations 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Being in Christ now in this life is to bring equality. This is in keeping with the words of Jesus concerning resurrection (Matt 22:30); For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
. For marriage not to be necessary, there must be no differentiation of sex, therefore they will all will be the same.

Given that we are moving towards true equality not differentiated by sex but all being the same (sexless?) we have a situation where it was necessary for God to make male and female. Even in the animal kingdom, the male and the female of the species have anatomical differences. We are scratching at the surface of God's wisdom in unravelling the mysteries of how things work (biologically speaking). We also know that there are wide differences between different men and different women and a certain amount of overlap in which men can be effeminate and some women appear masculin. We know we can alter the balance by changing the level of hormones.

In one way, though sexually different and exhibiting feminine and masculin quatlies in both sexes, the one thing that unites us is our ability to reason. We all have brains that function the same. We all can choose to do something or not do something. When it comes to pleasing ourselves, our sex does not play a part. We can all choose whether to have the mind of Christ and the advantages that can bring to society or we can choose to please ourselves and been like those who Paul advised young Timothy to turn away from (2Tim 3:2); For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

First of all, you have to blame most of the evil in this world to man. It is man who sinned first and brought the penalty of death on himself. God is the righteous judge and sets the penalty and administers justice. This is the part you distort in order to justify blaming God. I am responsible for my own actions and it would be a mistake for me to blame God for the bad things that happen to me because of the decision I made. I blame men for the ills and their wrong doing against me which can have long-term consequences. I do not blame God for that which man must be blamed for.

When God gives up on people for being reprobates, that must tell us something about those people. Are you now a reprobate in God eyes? You act as though you could be in my eyes. There is opportunity for you to see the error of your thinking and repent. It is entirely up to you. Whatever you decide to do and do, it will not in any way divert God from his plan and the purpose he has for this earth and the creation upon it. That is something we can all be a part of and it is our choice, once we know, whether to accept it or reject it. By comparison, what God has on offer for the future outweighs anything that has happened in the past for which you blame God. God is far wiser than you can even imagine and compared to man's wisdom, man's wisdom is as nothing.

All the best
David

Hi David:

So are you saying that eventhough GOD created man and woman male and female in a sinless world/garden that in heaven and the new earth and for all eternity there is no distinction between the sexes? What happens to Adam and Eve when GOD creates a new earth and gives Adam and Eve back their home and their family? Are you suggesting that the animals will be sex neutral as well?
If GOD made man/woman after His likeness then does it not stand to reason that sex is a part of the plan? Just because there is no marriage in heaven that would suggest that marriage is man-made as the Sabbath and the new moon are mentioned from creation and exist in the earth made new! So marriage is not eternal meaning it is not part of the original plan of GOD!

Namaste,

Mystykal

Richard Amiel McGough
08-12-2013, 12:52 PM
Hi Rose:
I know Richard does not believe in a Satan/Devil per se.... And maybe you don't as well. But isn't it POSSIBLE that all the "bad" things attributed to GOD in the Bible could have ACTUALLY been the work of the Devil? Why do you insist on a narrow understanding of the stories which you admit are myths and then you act like GOD is the origin of evil deeds done in the name of GOD! Perhaps the evil attributed to GOD is in fact the work of Satan the "accuser of the brethren".
GOD IS Love! GOD is good....All The Time!

Just a thought...

Namaste,

Mystykal

Hey there Mystykal,

I'm confused. If all the bad things attributed to God in the Bible were really the work of the Devil, then why does the Bible say God did it? Wouldn't that make the Bible a blasphemous lie? Why would anyone believe a word it says? Indeed, your comment suggests to me that you really don't believe anything the Bible says if it doesn't fit your own ideas about GOD.

All the best,

Richard

Mystykal
08-12-2013, 06:05 PM
Hey there Mystykal,

I'm confused. If all the bad things attributed to God in the Bible were really the work of the Devil, then why does the Bible say God did it? Wouldn't that make the Bible a blasphemous lie? Why would anyone believe a word it says? Indeed, your comment suggests to me that you really don't believe anything the Bible says if it doesn't fit your own ideas about GOD.

All the best,

Richard

Hi Richard:

All good questions there! As you know, the development of the "GOD Model" in the Bible is a man-made thing. GOD did not "write" the Bible. So the words themselves can be misunderstood based on how people try and twist the stories and the outcomes to match their notions of GOD. But if we just look at the information from a distance it is easy to make out the trends and the indications of thought as to the origin of ideas.

So that when the Bible says "Thou was perfect in all thy ways until iniquity was found in thee" - this idea indicates that evil originated in ONE mind (Satan) and spread from there. The idea that GOD is responsible for the murders and the killings in the Bible ignores this FACT of the origin of evil.

So just because the words say "GOD commanded the death of xyz" does not mean it is outside of the scope of the origins of evil - the avenging angel which destroys is sometimes attributed to GOD and sometimes attributed to Satan! There is even one story which is given two different sources in two different tellings of the same story! So we could deduct that one of the writers got it wrong or that the source of evil things is ALWAYS the SATAN - and so any deviation from that is just a man made perspective on the events.

The Bible is not a simple book. By that I mean it is not written as black and white. The purpose of the Bible is to open the portal of wisdom to the other side. The INCAS the Mayans and many other cultures just seem to have disappeared leaving all their possessions behind. Highly intelligent people with little reason to just up and leave. I suggest that they give us examples of people who found a passage way to another world/dimension. The Bible is that kind of Book. It tells us that "This same Jesus who you have seen go into heaven will come back in like manner... Be ye also ready!" Acts 1:11/Matthew 24:44

1 Corinthians 15:51-55
New International Version (NIV)

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[a]
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”[b]
Footnotes:
a.1 Corinthians 15:54 Isaiah 25:8
b.1 Corinthians 15:55 Hosea 13:14

It is for this reason that the Bible was written. To develop the kind of faith which can cause a person to cross over to the other side!

Namaste,

Mystykal

Mystykal
08-12-2013, 07:50 PM
To: Richard

"Understand this if nothing else: spiritual freedom and oneness with the Tao are not randomly bestowed gifts, but the rewards of conscious self-transformation and self-evolution."

Although the above statement is Asian in origin it brings a perspective to the table which can be applied to the writings of the Bible. The idea is that, Spiritual oneness with the Ultimate CAN be achieved ONLY by self-transformation.

The Bible says "Be ye therefore transformed by the re-newing of your mind." The context is as follows:

Romans 12:2
1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. 3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.…

Sothat FAITH is a factor in the Spriitural renewal of the mind so that we may know the will of the Divine Mind which is the power behind all things true. It is of little value to argue over the foundation which has been laid by the mystics of all ages and find their culmination in the words of One who holds the keys to life and death - Christ Jesus the Saviour of mankind. Take it or leave it! In the end each individual must decide what to believe. The Holy Spirit is the Guide which, if we listen in stillness - will guide us to all truth leading to life eternal. I find this reality to be the ultimate reality! The process intriques me and enlightens me each day! I can't say enough good things about my life as it is now - I'm on my way to the land of pure bliss! PTL!

Namaste,

Mystykal

Richard Amiel McGough
08-16-2013, 08:50 AM
Hi Richard:

All good questions there! As you know, the development of the "GOD Model" in the Bible is a man-made thing. GOD did not "write" the Bible. So the words themselves can be misunderstood based on how people try and twist the stories and the outcomes to match their notions of GOD. But if we just look at the information from a distance it is easy to make out the trends and the indications of thought as to the origin of ideas.

So that when the Bible says "Thou was perfect in all thy ways until iniquity was found in thee" - this idea indicates that evil originated in ONE mind (Satan) and spread from there. The idea that GOD is responsible for the murders and the killings in the Bible ignores this FACT of the origin of evil.

Hey there Mystykal,

Glad you appreciate the questions! :thumb:

But your answer seems a bit confused. Is not your interpretation a "man-made thing" as much as any other? How can you criticize other interpretations as "man-made" while keeping your own interpretation free from that criticism, unless you are claiming special divine status for your interpretation?

Now as for the "origin of evil" - you have taken a passage (Ezek 28) that is explicitly talking about the King of Tyre and have applied it figuratively to a being called "Satan". It looks like a "man-made SATAN model" to me. Of course, you did not invent this yourself. It is an old tradition amongst Bible interpreters. But why do you accept this traditional interpretation while so freely rejecting any interpretation that you don't like?

There are a number of problems with your assertion that "this idea indicates that evil originated in ONE mind (Satan)". First, the Bible quotes God as saying "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7). Second, God's omniscience implies that he created Satan in such a way that Satan would ultimately be evil, so the origin of everything is ultimately the responsibility of the CREATOR. You diminish God when you say that anything could ORIGINATE outside of him (or so many Christians would argue, anyway). It's also a very simplistic understanding. We know nothing of the "origin of evil." You are taking fragments of ancient Hebrew literature and figuratively applying them to a poorly defined supernatural biblical character who is at times conflated with God. I don't think that's a good foundation for any real knowledge. How could you have any real confidence in such speculations?


The idea that GOD is responsible for the murders and the killings in the Bible ignores this FACT of the origin of evil.

Say what? Are you saying that God had no choice but to command his people to murder every man, woman, and child of the Midianites except the 32,000 sexy virgins, half of whom were distributed to the very soldiers who had just slaughtered every person they ever loved?

This is the enduring mystery of the Christian Bible. It presents God as absolutely ENAMORED with violence, VIOLENCE and MORE VIOLENCE. It seems that his answer to every challenge. Kill everyone with a flood. Destroy two cities with fire and brimstone. Send in the Babylonians to destroy his temple and slaughter his people. And to sum it all up, have a big blood "supper" where all the people in heaven rejoice to watch vultures eating the flesh of the people hated by their own Creator:

Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. 3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. ... 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.



So just because the words say "GOD commanded the death of xyz" does not mean it is outside of the scope of the origins of evil - the avenging angel which destroys is sometimes attributed to GOD and sometimes attributed to Satan! There is even one story which is given two different sources in two different tellings of the same story! So we could deduct that one of the writers got it wrong or that the source of evil things is ALWAYS the SATAN - and so any deviation from that is just a man made perspective on the events.

The fact that the Bible confuses God with Satan pretty much says it all.

I have no idea how anyone could be satisfied with such sophistry. You appear to be putting Satan above God when you say that Satan really did the things the Bible attributes to God. And how does that fix anything anyway? God obviously could have stopped Satan from doing all that evil. Indeed, Job repeated shows that God gave Satan permission, which makes God responsible. And this is confirmed when God is quoted as taking responsibility for Job's destruction:
Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
You are playing fast and loose with the words of the Bible. They are putty in your hands. You mold them into whatever you want, even into meanings that are diametrically opposed to what they actually mean. How is it possible you can't see what you are doing?

And this brings us back to "man-made doctrines." That's exactly what you have done. The Bible plainly attributes much evil to God, but you don't like that so you make up the doctrine that Satan was the real "origin" of evil.



The Bible is not a simple book. By that I mean it is not written as black and white. The purpose of the Bible is to open the portal of wisdom to the other side. The INCAS the Mayans and many other cultures just seem to have disappeared leaving all their possessions behind. Highly intelligent people with little reason to just up and leave. I suggest that they give us examples of people who found a passage way to another world/dimension. The Bible is that kind of Book. It tells us that "This same Jesus who you have seen go into heaven will come back in like manner... Be ye also ready!" Acts 1:11/Matthew 24:44

What makes you think they "left"? Where do you think they went? It seems you feel free to make up whatever wild speculations might enter your mind to fill every gap in your knowledge. It would be infinitely more likely that they were destroyed by a plague or famine than that they accessed secret wisdom and ascended to another dimension, don't you think?

Now you say that the Bible is "that kind of book". What makes you say that? Have you known anyone who used it to ascend to a higher dimension? Don't your realize that your comments have no foundation in fact?

Your quotation of Acts 1:11 is particularly ironic, because that is the verse Christian literalists use to justify their assertion about the literal return of Christ, but you don't believe the Bible is literal!



1 Corinthians 15:51-55
New International Version (NIV)

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[a]
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”[b]
Footnotes:
a.1 Corinthians 15:54 Isaiah 25:8
b.1 Corinthians 15:55 Hosea 13:14

It is for this reason that the Bible was written. To develop the kind of faith which can cause a person to cross over to the other side!

Namaste,

Mystykal
That's a lovely mystical interpretation. But is there any reason to believe it is true? And if it is true, why is the Bible written with so much crap in it that causes so much evil in the world? For example, why is it so filled with sexism that has oppressed women for two thousand years? That doesn't sound like a book designed to help people cross over to the other side. It sounds like an all to human book filled with human failings that has misled millions of people and caused immeasurable needless suffering in the world. Things only began to get better when people realized that God is NOT TRUSTWORTHY. We learned we have to rely on our own strength and intelligence if we want to survive. When people had to trust God, we died like flies from the plague. Only when we abandoned faith in a faithless God did we find the strength to discover antibiotics, and so we have saved millions of lives that God was perfectly happy to let die miserable deaths.

I hope my words don't frustrate you. I'm just answering in my honest voice, telling you how things really look to me. I hope you speak the same to me.

Great chatting!

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
08-16-2013, 09:38 AM
To: Richard

"Understand this if nothing else: spiritual freedom and oneness with the Tao are not randomly bestowed gifts, but the rewards of conscious self-transformation and self-evolution."

Although the above statement is Asian in origin it brings a perspective to the table which can be applied to the writings of the Bible. The idea is that, Spiritual oneness with the Ultimate CAN be achieved ONLY by self-transformation.

The Bible says "Be ye therefore transformed by the re-newing of your mind." The context is as follows:

Romans 12:2
1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. 3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.…

Sothat FAITH is a factor in the Spriitural renewal of the mind so that we may know the will of the Divine Mind which is the power behind all things true. It is of little value to argue over the foundation which has been laid by the mystics of all ages and find their culmination in the words of One who holds the keys to life and death - Christ Jesus the Saviour of mankind. Take it or leave it! In the end each individual must decide what to believe. The Holy Spirit is the Guide which, if we listen in stillness - will guide us to all truth leading to life eternal. I find this reality to be the ultimate reality! The process intriques me and enlightens me each day! I can't say enough good things about my life as it is now - I'm on my way to the land of pure bliss! PTL!

Namaste,

Mystykal
Hey there Mystykal,

Your interpretation is very nice and all, but I don't see what it has to do with the Bible. The Bible is not about the Tao. It is not about some abstract concept of "FAITH" that is supposed to help a person "cross over to the other side." Your interpretation ignores the vast majority of the Bible, and certainly the plain meaning as understood by the vast majority of Bible believers throughout history.

You say the Holy Spirit is a guide. Funny thing is, that's what every Christian sect says, and yet they have all been guided by the same "Holy Spirit" into diametrically opposed beliefs! How could that happen? The answer is obvious. There is no way for anyone to discern between the "Holy Spirit" and their own private imagination. And so believers quickly fall into self-deception of the worst kind. They deceive themselves into believing that their own intuitions are the very voice of God himself. I've seen this a million times. When asked what's the difference between their beliefs and the false beliefs of Muslims, Mormons, Hindus, and every other kind of believer, they say the difference is that they have the "Holy Spirit". Obviously, such is the path to deception.

All the best,

Richard

Mystykal
08-16-2013, 08:04 PM
Hey there Mystykal,

Your interpretation is very nice and all, but I don't see what it has to do with the Bible. The Bible is not about the Tao. It is not about some abstract concept of "FAITH" that is supposed to help a person "cross over to the other side." Your interpretation ignores the vast majority of the Bible, and certainly the plain meaning as understood by the vast majority of Bible believers throughout history.

You say the Holy Spirit is a guide. Funny thing is, that's what every Christian sect says, and yet they have all been guided by the same "Holy Spirit" into diametrically opposed beliefs! How could that happen? The answer is obvious. There is no way for anyone to discern between the "Holy Spirit" and their own private imagination. And so believers quickly fall into self-deception of the worst kind. They deceive themselves into believing that their own intuitions are the very voice of God himself. I've seen this a million times. When asked what's the difference between their beliefs and the false beliefs of Muslims, Mormons, Hindus, and every other kind of believer, they say the difference is that they have the "Holy Spirit". Obviously, such is the path to deception.

All the best,

Richard

Hi Richard:
You are right! But at the same time you are dead wrong! Let me try and explain. First of all I already stated that it is of little value to argue with the mystics which have given us our teachings. Now we can reject all light because it comes in a package which is not to our liking. As well as we can mindlessly accept all things thrown at us which appears to be from a legit source. Both would be error.

You seem to infer that truth and its framework is not universal. You seem to not accept the idea that the Bible is an ancient book written in a style which is very similar to the Tao Te Ching. You seem to know next to nothing about the origins of the Tao. Your statement about the Bible not being about the Tao is laughable. Everything in the world is about the Tao! The concepts which resonate the loudest are those ideals which all people view as good and worthy of study. The Bible is a compilation of ideas and stories which Jews and Christians believe to be "inspired". Yes - there is much mud and muck surrounding these beautiful truths and as with all diamonds they are hidden in the ground for a reason. You got lost in the muck and threw the baby out with the bath water!

You said Your interpretation ignores the vast majority of the Bible, and certainly the plain meaning as understood by the vast majority of Bible believers throughout history.

Well I don't know what you mean exactly. The faith idea has been around for a long time. It has also been looked at in very different ways by Christians over time. If you think I hold to a concept which you do not recognize or you think most other "Evangelical" Christians would agree with - that might be the case. I do not get my ideas from Evangelical Christians. I consider them all to be "non-Biblical" in their Biblical interpretations! As far as I can see they do not speak for Christianity as a whole.

You wrote: You say the Holy Spirit is a guide. Funny thing is, that's what every Christian sect says, and yet they have all been guided by the same "Holy Spirit" into diametrically opposed beliefs!

Well, your statment is false! These people who are not in "one accord" and have crazy non-Biblical beliefs which they claim are from the Bible and they are Spirit-filled, pew jumping, washed in the blood "Christians" are in reality the spawn of Satan! Their notion that they are Spirit filled is a joke. BUT that does not mean ALL people who claim to be led of the Spirit are delusional. You are wrong about that!

Jesus said. "You will know the truth!." "And when the Spirit of truth is come The Spirit will guide you into ALL TRUTH."

Now, I know lots of people claim to know the truth and be led of the Spirit... But few are! The question is are YOU? Am I? That question is at the heart of your argument and why you left the Christian church! I am here to tell you that Jesus has promised The Holy Spirit to all those who will follow after the Spirit's leading... period. We all have our faults... but the Spirit is willing and able to save those who come to the fountain of Living Water! The meditative process is the ONLY way to personally find the Spirit and be baptized in the Fountain/Fire of GOD'S presence. Take it or leave it - The truth is still taught by the Masters who have a living connection with the "other side."

Jesus said, " I go to prepare a place for you. And ...I will come again and receive you unto myself so that where I am you will be also." So mote it be! (That place IS the other side!)

Namaste,

Mystykal

David M
08-16-2013, 10:20 PM
Hello Mystykal and Richard

After a few days away from the forum, I am jumping back in with a contribution to this thread. As I read your last posts in this thread, I find myself agreeing with both of you in parts. I am not saying my understanding is entirely correct, although somewhere in the middle ground is the truth.

I think we have to approach the Bible afresh and forget all the rubbish that has been spoken for the last few centuries and is continuing to be spoken by evangelical Christians or the like. Difficult as it might be to dismiss things which are burned into our mind, nevertheless, there are those who are waking up to the truth that is contained in the Bible and not believing what has been taught my mainstream Christendom for years going back to the time of Constantine.

We all claim to understand the plain and simple things written in the Bible, yet we accuse each other of error in understanding the simple things.

The Holy Spirit - what is it exactly? The Holy Spirit as I understand it, is the power by which God operates. All the things God performs, he does so by His power. Can that power or some of that power be given to someone else? My answer would be "yes" and "no". We have no idea how God's power operates. The simplest form of understanding is that God spoke (the word -logos(gk)) and the word is acted on. How God's word operates is outside scientific understanding.

Can the Holy Spirit be divided into subdivisions? The word "spirit" to me means an unseen force. It is like the wind, the effects of the wind are seen, but the wind is invisible just as the air we breath is invisible. I can think of God's word as spirit and the word can have an effect on me. The print on the page is powerless. It is the reading of the word and it is what goes on in my mind where the influence of those words have effect. It is the human mind and especially the mind that does not conform to following God's instructions that leads to enmity between man and God or God and the world. The world is made of like-minded people whose mind is at enmity with God. Hence, individuals, groups of people, organizations, governments involving people in "high-places" which are at enmity with God, and the people of God are the ones also wrestling against those same people. The Serpent, the Devil and Satan are all manifest in the same individuals, groups, organizations, and governments, hence any reference to these can be seen in the context of a connection with the human mind; singly or collectively.

When I said "no" to the question; can God's power be given to someone else, that is born out by the fact that not even Jesus could do anything of himself. Jesus had access to God's power by asking God. He thanked God in advance for the power that was made available to him. Anything Jesus spoke, God was prepared to do (even an idle word) and so the power of Jesus to perform miracles was actually God performing them. I do not think anyone has the actual power of God residing in them. If I had the Holy Spirit residing in me, I would have no control over it and I would not understand how to use it. If the Holy Spirit ( God's power) resides with God and no-one else, then that goes against the idea of the Holy Spirit is a separate being separate from God as part of a triune God, which is not scriptural. People have access to God's power only if God responds to their requests. Angels are a separate subject. This might be when God's power is given to other beings and operates independently, but in accordance with God's will. Do God's Angels understand that power given to them and how it works? When God operates through Angels, is this just a way to explain how God is seen to be at work? We do not and cannot understand the workings of God's power at the molecular and atomic level? When God is said to be omnipresent and omnipotent, we can ask; why does God need Angels? Are Angels a form of networking and a distribution of God's power by which God is seen as omnipresent and omnipotent? These are fundamental questions to our understanding of what the "Holy Spirit" is and the channels through which it operates.

As for the Tao, I know very little about it. Do I need to know and how is knowing what Tao is all about going to help me? Does the Tao give me essential information which the Bible does not? The Bible has everything we need to know which is essential to have a peaceful life and for salvation. The ancient Jewish scriptures contained the Gospel message which was preached to Abraham (Gal 3:8). The test for me is; does any other literature agree with God's word as recorded in the ancient Jewish scriptures? If the Tao was inspired by God for a purpose, I think God would have made known the purpose. Wise as these works are, if not caused by the inspiration of God, then they are the works of man. That is what we have to decide. I am convinced the Bible is divinely inspired, I have to be shown what is in the Tao that can be seen to be inspired writing to have come from God? God is ONE and there is none else. This is what the Bible teaches and so any other works of literature, which if inspired, can only come from the one God. Therefore, we have to see harmony in all these sources, if the sources have their origin in God.

Once again, there are several major subjects to consider here in which we all have our own ideas and understanding. We need to deal with each subject one at a time.

All the best
David

Mystykal
08-16-2013, 10:39 PM
Hey there Mystykal,

Glad you appreciate the questions! :thumb:

But your answer seems a bit confused. Is not your interpretation a "man-made thing" as much as any other? How can you criticize other interpretations as "man-made" while keeping your own interpretation free from that criticism, unless you are claiming special divine status for your interpretation?

Now as for the "origin of evil" - you have taken a passage (Ezek 28) that is explicitly talking about the King of Tyre and have applied it figuratively to a being called "Satan". It looks like a "man-made SATAN model" to me. Of course, you did not invent this yourself. It is an old tradition amongst Bible interpreters. But why do you accept this traditional interpretation while so freely rejecting any interpretation that you don't like?

There are a number of problems with your assertion that "this idea indicates that evil originated in ONE mind (Satan)". First, the Bible quotes God as saying "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7). Second, God's omniscience implies that he created Satan in such a way that Satan would ultimately be evil, so the origin of everything is ultimately the responsibility of the CREATOR. You diminish God when you say that anything could ORIGINATE outside of him (or so many Christians would argue, anyway). It's also a very simplistic understanding. We know nothing of the "origin of evil." You are taking fragments of ancient Hebrew literature and figuratively applying them to a poorly defined supernatural biblical character who is at times conflated with God. I don't think that's a good foundation for any real knowledge. How could you have any real confidence in such speculations?


Say what? Are you saying that God had no choice but to command his people to murder every man, woman, and child of the Midianites except the 32,000 sexy virgins, half of whom were distributed to the very soldiers who had just slaughtered every person they ever loved?

This is the enduring mystery of the Christian Bible. It presents God as absolutely ENAMORED with violence, VIOLENCE and MORE VIOLENCE. It seems that his answer to every challenge. Kill everyone with a flood. Destroy two cities with fire and brimstone. Send in the Babylonians to destroy his temple and slaughter his people. And to sum it all up, have a big blood "supper" where all the people in heaven rejoice to watch vultures eating the flesh of the people hated by their own Creator:

Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. 3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. ... 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


The fact that the Bible confuses God with Satan pretty much says it all.

I have no idea how anyone could be satisfied with such sophistry. You appear to be putting Satan above God when you say that Satan really did the things the Bible attributes to God. And how does that fix anything anyway? God obviously could have stopped Satan from doing all that evil. Indeed, Job repeated shows that God gave Satan permission, which makes God responsible. And this is confirmed when God is quoted as taking responsibility for Job's destruction:
Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
You are playing fast and loose with the words of the Bible. They are putty in your hands. You mold them into whatever you want, even into meanings that are diametrically opposed to what they actually mean. How is it possible you can't see what you are doing?

And this brings us back to "man-made doctrines." That's exactly what you have done. The Bible plainly attributes much evil to God, but you don't like that so you make up the doctrine that Satan was the real "origin" of evil.


What makes you think they "left"? Where do you think they went? It seems you feel free to make up whatever wild speculations might enter your mind to fill every gap in your knowledge. It would be infinitely more likely that they were destroyed by a plague or famine than that they accessed secret wisdom and ascended to another dimension, don't you think?

Now you say that the Bible is "that kind of book". What makes you say that? Have you known anyone who used it to ascend to a higher dimension? Don't your realize that your comments have no foundation in fact?

Your quotation of Acts 1:11 is particularly ironic, because that is the verse Christian literalists use to justify their assertion about the literal return of Christ, but you don't believe the Bible is literal!


That's a lovely mystical interpretation. But is there any reason to believe it is true? And if it is true, why is the Bible written with so much crap in it that causes so much evil in the world? For example, why is it so filled with sexism that has oppressed women for two thousand years? That doesn't sound like a book designed to help people cross over to the other side. It sounds like an all to human book filled with human failings that has misled millions of people and caused immeasurable needless suffering in the world. Things only began to get better when people realized that God is NOT TRUSTWORTHY. We learned we have to rely on our own strength and intelligence if we want to survive. When people had to trust God, we died like flies from the plague. Only when we abandoned faith in a faithless God did we find the strength to discover antibiotics, and so we have saved millions of lives that God was perfectly happy to let die miserable deaths.

I hope my words don't frustrate you. I'm just answering in my honest voice, telling you how things really look to me. I hope you speak the same to me.

Great chatting!

Richard

Hi Richard:
I really am glad you have laid out the different perspectives as you see them. it's all good! I am not intimidated by your questions.... I once was in your boat! I too have lived in that world... I just choose to live in the world of the Masters now! i have personally experienced so many unexplainable things whic are from "the other side" I do not hesitate to go there or to talk about it dispite all the naysayers. I does not matter. In the end it is only you and the Great Mystery Spirit which will tango! It is only a personal understanding of the Spiritual Truth which will save us in the end. Withut that experience we will come up short and be eternally lost. Gone. vanished. Like a candle flame blown out! When we could have had eternal life. Living in the presence of the One Life. The Master of all the universe. The Creator. If we just had stuck to the path of wisdom. The path which all the wisdomkeepers have walked. If we just had developed the kind of faith which can move a mountain - we would have been given the prize of that eternal glory filled life with all of our family and friends! It's that simple. Take it or lieave it! That's the choice we each have to make. I for one, have chosen LIFE!

As to your quesions.... I will try and answer them. I may have to come back and add some things later... so re-read this section several times if you care to.

You said:
Is not your interpretation a "man-made thing" as much as any other? How can you criticize other interpretations as "man-made" while keeping your own interpretation free from that criticism, unless you are claiming special divine status for your interpretation?

--- The difference between a common person and a "Christian" or a Master or a Mystic is this: The subtle powers which are not obvious to the natural eye are visible to them. We have many stories in all parts of the world about the mystical unexplainable things which even defy scientific explanation. Sure there are fakes! But I am talking about the real Miracles of Jesus, Elijah, and the like. You think that no one was ever inspired by the Spirit to make an axe head float? You think Jesus never walked on water? You think Peter did not walk on water? So since you do not believe in GOD of the Bible or any GOD which can be known, you just ignore a world of "spooky" things!

So, as you know the "new creation" or creature in Christ is supposed to have different abilities and mind/thoughts. This Spiritual change is often faked! But that does not negate the True transformation which DOES take place in the life of a person who has been united with the Master! I guess in that sense I would say that the Bible can be a book of controversy or a book full of gems of truth. It depends on the receiver's Spiritual connections. The Spirit does not change - people do!

YOU said:There are a number of problems with your assertion that "this idea indicates that evil originated in ONE mind (Satan)". First, the Bible quotes God as saying "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7). Second, God's omniscience implies that he created Satan in such a way that Satan would ultimately be evil, so the origin of everything is ultimately the responsibility of the CREATOR. You diminish God when you say that anything could ORIGINATE outside of him (or so many Christians would argue, anyway). It's also a very simplistic understanding. We know nothing of the "origin of evil." You are taking fragments of ancient Hebrew literature and figuratively applying them to a poorly defined supernatural biblical character who is at times conflated with God. I don't think that's a good foundation for any real knowledge. How could you have any real confidence in such speculations?

Richard right off the bat let's get something straight!... YOU KNOW that the word evil in Isaiah 45:7 is an ENGLISH word for multiple words in Hebrew! I don't have time for your ridiculus supposition that GOD CREATED EVIL since GOD's Omniscience PROHIBITS ANY FREE WILL. You know that is complete nonesense. Now the verse you quoted is:

Isaiah 45:7 (AMP) | In Context | Whole Chapter
7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.

Footnotes:Isaiah 45:7 Moral evil proceeds from the will of men, but physical evil proceeds from the will of God.Isaiah 45:7XBackXIsaiah 45:7 (CEB) | In Context |
7 I form light and create darkness,
make prosperity and create doom;
I am the Lord, who does all these things.

YOU Said: You are playing fast and loose with the words of the Bible. They are putty in your hands. You mold them into whatever you want, even into meanings that are diametrically opposed to what they actually mean. How is it possible you can't see what you are doing?

And this brings us back to "man-made doctrines." That's exactly what you have done. The Bible plainly attributes much evil to God, but you don't like that so you make up the doctrine that Satan was the real "origin" of evil.

So, it is well known that early on in the Bible all things were credited to GOD. The later Greek notions of spliting light and darkness with good and evil and the whole duality notions was later applied by the translators to the Old Testament translation of the Septuagint in Greek. So your argument that I somehow am "diminishing" GOD's power in any way is wrong! You are the one who is simplistic! Your argument would be defeated by a first year student of theology! I am NOT playing with the WORDS of the BIBLE - YOU ARE! Enough said.

In my opinion all doctrines per se are "man-made". There is a difference between "doctrines" and "Truth". Truth can be found in doctrines but doctrines can change. truth does not! you are consuming terms. I think your logic is
Fallacious and down right absurd. But you act like you know the Bible when in fact you don't really understand the writing styles used or the meaning of the words themselves! Or you are just messing with me....

As to the Inca/Mayan population: YOU said: What makes you think they "left"? Where do you think they went? It seems you feel free to make up whatever wild speculations might enter your mind to fill every gap in your knowledge. It would be infinitely more likely that they were destroyed by a plague or famine than that they accessed secret wisdom and ascended to another dimension, don't you think?

Well maybe! But there are no known written materials indicating that from a highly sophisticated group and their writings that are here, talk about strange other-worldly beings.

http://www.carnegiemuseums.org/cmag/bk_issue/2003/sepoct/feature1.html

How an Inca society that was so rich and so well advanced in the arts of civilization could suddenly disappear from the world scene between the 1530s and 1570s is a critical question. The ruined Inca buildings, agricultural terraces for farming, and amazing roads of stone remained, but the artifacts and the detailed records of their way of life took a long time to be discovered and analyzed.

“Night fell at noon”: The Spanish Conquest
The central fact governing the disappearance of evidence about the historic Incas was the Spanish Conquest that began in the 1530s. Within a few decades, the daily objects, ancestral materials, and treasures of Inca civilization were methodically destroyed or removed by the Conquistadors. After Francisco Pizarro and his indiscriminate band of soldiers sacked the Inca capital of Cuzco in 1533, the other major Inca cities were soon overcome, and the gold and silver treasures of the empire were collected, melted, and converted into bars, and sent back to the treasury in Spain. “Whatever can be burned, is burned; the rest is broken,” reported one Spanish chronicler. One Inca observation that survived was, “Night fell at noon.”

Gold hidden in the national vaults was the economic foundation of Medieval Europe, and in the 14th and 15th centuries most of it came from the west coast of Africa. But in the 16th century, South America presented a new stream of wealth to the mother country, Spain. The Conquistadors in the New World not only gathered up all the precious objects, but they continually sought something more, the mythic El Dorado—a hoard of gold at the end of the rainbow—to enrich the Spanish Crown. The conquest of Montezuma and the Aztecs in Mexico by Cortez in 1519 had set an example that a few years later was followed by the Conquistadors in the Andes.

Inca civilization was also ripe for European exploitation in the early 1500s. A smallpox epidemic introduced from Europe had weakened the Andean populations, killing the last major Inca ruler, and there was a civil war between two competing contenders for the throne. It was difficult for Inca clans to unite against a common enemy.

In addition, the Inca made disastrous military mistakes. They did not at first retreat into the mountains to fight the Spaniards, where they would have had an advantage, but used clubs and short swords to fight Conquistadors wearing armor and riding horses (an animal that had never been seen before). The Spanish used deadly steel swords, and fired canons and other firearms. The Incas were slaughtered by the thousands, and their rulers executed in public. Soon all the Inca cities had been looted and ruined, and the ruling class was gone.
Still, there remained a legend, kept alive by the Spanish chroniclers, of a “lost city” in the jungle, bypassed by the conquerors, where Inca cultural materials survived. It was this centuries-old legend that Hiram Bingham, like many others, was ready to believe. Machu Picchu, found to be nearly inaccessible on a mountaintop, seemed to be the perfect lost city.

Later archaeology and research in the 20th century have continued to refine our understanding and theories about the lost Inca culture. Whether Richard L. Burger, director of the Peabody Museum from 1995 through the end of 2002, and his co-curator Lucy C. Salazar, have finally solved the mystery of Machu Picchu, is up to visitors to the exhibit to decide.

=======
http://io9.com/5928085/10-civilizations-that-disappeared-under-mysterious-circumstances

The Maya are perhaps the classic example of a civilization that was completely lost, its great monuments, cities and roads swallowed up by the central American jungles, and its peoples scattered to small villages. Though the languages and traditions of the Maya still survive up to the present day, the civilization's peak was during the first millennium AD, when their greatest architectural feats and massive agricultural projects covered a vast region in the Yucatán — today, an area stretching from Mexico to Guatemala and Belize. One of the largest Mesoamerican civilizations, the Maya made extensive use of writing, math, an elaborate calendar, and sophisticated engineering to build their pyramids and terraced farms. Though it's often said that the Maya civilization began a mysterious decline in roughly the year 900, a great deal of evidence points to climate change in the Yucatán combined with internecine warfare, which resulted in famine and abandonment of the city centers.
=====
So that is the "official" rendition which ignores all the writings of these ancient civilizations and tries to explain the demise by some common natrual means.
But archeologists cannot do that to the Bible Story if Enoch! They cannot discredit so easily the story of Elijah and the "firery chariot". These individuals did find a way to "cross over to the other side" without dying! Of course you can buty your head in the sand and ignore the stories or you can try and understand the hidden significance of such ideas. Like a formula which must be understood before it can be used to create/alter reality the Hopi N.Am. natives tell of a creation story and of spirits and gods which interacted with people. All made-up fantasy? I doubt it... Considering that the shamans of all cultures even Jesus - tell us of "another place" from which they came and how they are going back!... "If Christ be not risen, then your faith is in vain." 1 Corinthians 15:14
And there it is again!... Faith is the one ingredient which opens up the passage way "to the other side!" Take it or leave it! Your gain or your loss!

YOU Said "Your quotation of Acts 1:11 is particularly ironic, because that is the verse Christian literalists use to justify their assertion about the literal return of Christ, but you don't believe the Bible is literal!

That's a lovely mystical interpretation. But is there any reason to believe it is true? And if it is true, why is the Bible written with so much crap in it that causes so much evil in the world?"


Acts 1:11 International Standard Version
They asked, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up toward heaven? This same Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you saw him go up into heaven."

Literalism... I did not say I don't take some of the Bible to be literal... I said I do not think that the Bible must be understod in a literal sense...in order to see the formula for immortality. In other words the Bible stories are much more than stories. They hold "formulas" by which we can perform "magic" and change the future and access immortality. That is NOT what most "Christians" today believe. The word "literalism" has taken on a theological meaning which I do not agree with in the sense that, the underlying riddle IS the important issue - not the story itself. Having said that, it does not imply that the story is not FACTUAL. The whole basis for the Bible is that it is "inspired". I do not believe in "word" inspiration. The Bible then should only be read in the original language in which it was written.... Like the Koran! This problem of inspiration is at the heart of the crap you attribute to "Christianity" and the Bible - with all of its errors and sexism. The FACT that the holographs exist at all should indicate that the words are not the "inspired" part of the Bible but rather the Author and the ideas hidden in the verses arrangement is where the truth ACTUALLY resides. Think about that!

The bottom line is this... The universe was either created or evolved... GOD is real or just a fake memory in the mind of man...The truth is present in the world or it does not exist..."God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" Hebrews 1:1,2

Take it or leave it! Faith is the key which unlocks Heaven's mysteries.

Namaste,

Mystykal



PS Remember Elijah! "If the Lord be GOD Hear ye him!

Richard Amiel McGough
08-17-2013, 02:43 AM
You said:
Is not your interpretation a "man-made thing" as much as any other? How can you criticize other interpretations as "man-made" while keeping your own interpretation free from that criticism, unless you are claiming special divine status for your interpretation?

--- The difference between a common person and a "Christian" or a Master or a Mystic is this: The subtle powers which are not obvious to the natural eye are visible to them. We have many stories in all parts of the world about the mystical unexplainable things which even defy scientific explanation. Sure there are fakes! But I am talking about the real Miracles of Jesus, Elijah, and the like. You think that no one was ever inspired by the Spirit to make an axe head float? You think Jesus never walked on water? You think Peter did not walk on water? So since you do not believe in GOD of the Bible or any GOD which can be known, you just ignore a world of "spooky" things!

tbc...
There is much I have to say, but time prevents me at this moment. I'm heading out for a wonderful 60 mile bicycle ride up into the mountains. I'll be back in about six hours.

Have a great day!

:biking_better:

Mystykal
08-17-2013, 08:22 PM
There is much I have to say, but time prevents me at this moment. I'm heading out for a wonderful 60 mile bicycle ride up into the mountains. I'll be back in about six hours.

Have a great day!

:biking_better:

Cool! :D

Mystykal
08-17-2013, 10:01 PM
:yo: Richard: Go back and look at my response way below! I hope that gives you pause... Think about it!:lol:

Namaste,

Mystykal

Mystykal
08-17-2013, 10:15 PM
Hello Mystykal and Richard

After a few days away from the forum, I am jumping back in with a contribution to this thread. As I read your last posts in this thread, I find myself agreeing with both of you in parts. I am not saying my understanding is entirely correct, although somewhere in the middle ground is the truth.

I think we have to approach the Bible afresh and forget all the rubbish that has been spoken for the last few centuries and is continuing to be spoken by evangelical Christians or the like. Difficult as it might be to dismiss things which are burned into our mind, nevertheless, there are those who are waking up to the truth that is contained in the Bible and not believing what has been taught my mainstream Christendom for years going back to the time of Constantine.

We all claim to understand the plain and simple things written in the Bible, yet we accuse each other of error in understanding the simple things.

The Holy Spirit - what is it exactly? The Holy Spirit as I understand it, is the power by which God operates. All the things God performs, he does so by His power. Can that power or some of that power be given to someone else? My answer would be "yes" and "no". We have no idea how God's power operates. The simplest form of understanding is that God spoke (the word -logos(gk)) and the word is acted on. How God's word operates is outside scientific understanding.

Can the Holy Spirit be divided into subdivisions? The word "spirit" to me means an unseen force. It is like the wind, the effects of the wind are seen, but the wind is invisible just as the air we breath is invisible. I can think of God's word as spirit and the word can have an effect on me. The print on the page is powerless. It is the reading of the word and it is what goes on in my mind where the influence of those words have effect. It is the human mind and especially the mind that does not conform to following God's instructions that leads to enmity between man and God or God and the world. The world is made of like-minded people whose mind is at enmity with God. Hence, individuals, groups of people, organizations, governments involving people in "high-places" which are at enmity with God, and the people of God are the ones also wrestling against those same people. The Serpent, the Devil and Satan are all manifest in the same individuals, groups, organizations, and governments, hence any reference to these can be seen in the context of a connection with the human mind; singly or collectively.

When I said "no" to the question; can God's power be given to someone else, that is born out by the fact that not even Jesus could do anything of himself. Jesus had access to God's power by asking God. He thanked God in advance for the power that was made available to him. Anything Jesus spoke, God was prepared to do (even an idle word) and so the power of Jesus to perform miracles was actually God performing them. I do not think anyone has the actual power of God residing in them. If I had the Holy Spirit residing in me, I would have no control over it and I would not understand how to use it. If the Holy Spirit ( God's power) resides with God and no-one else, then that goes against the idea of the Holy Spirit is a separate being separate from God as part of a triune God, which is not scriptural. People have access to God's power only if God responds to their requests. Angels are a separate subject. This might be when God's power is given to other beings and operates independently, but in accordance with God's will. Do God's Angels understand that power given to them and how it works? When God operates through Angels, is this just a way to explain how God is seen to be at work? We do not and cannot understand the workings of God's power at the molecular and atomic level? When God is said to be omnipresent and omnipotent, we can ask; why does God need Angels? Are Angels a form of networking and a distribution of God's power by which God is seen as omnipresent and omnipotent? These are fundamental questions to our understanding of what the "Holy Spirit" is and the channels through which it operates.

As for the Tao, I know very little about it. Do I need to know and how is knowing what Tao is all about going to help me? Does the Tao give me essential information which the Bible does not? The Bible has everything we need to know which is essential to have a peaceful life and for salvation. The ancient Jewish scriptures contained the Gospel message which was preached to Abraham (Gal 3:8). The test for me is; does any other literature agree with God's word as recorded in the ancient Jewish scriptures? If the Tao was inspired by God for a purpose, I think God would have made known the purpose. Wise as these works are, if not caused by the inspiration of God, then they are the works of man. That is what we have to decide. I am convinced the Bible is divinely inspired, I have to be shown what is in the Tao that can be seen to be inspired writing to have come from God? God is ONE and there is none else. This is what the Bible teaches and so any other works of literature, which if inspired, can only come from the one God. Therefore, we have to see harmony in all these sources, if the sources have their origin in God.

Once again, there are several major subjects to consider here in which we all have our own ideas and understanding. We need to deal with each subject one at a time.

All the best
David

Hi David:

ONe quick comment to your comment about the TAO...

YOU said, "As for the Tao, I know very little about it. Do I need to know and how is knowing what Tao is all about going to help me? Does the Tao give me essential information which the Bible does not? The Bible has everything we need to know which is essential to have a peaceful life and for salvation."

You act like everything we need is in the Bible.. Ok. Did you learn to type reading the Bible? Did you learn to do math reading the Bible? NO!

So in the same way lots of people think tht the English KJV is all they need to know the way to salvation. I suggest that if we understand other cultures and how they relate to the truth then we can bring them the GOOD News as written in the Scriptures from their own writings and understandings in their own culture without destroying their truths which are the SAME truth spoken of by Jesus when He said, "Other sheep have I which are not of this fold. Them also must I bring... And there shall be ONE FOLD and ONE shepherd."

The TAO is NOT a book! It is the way of all things!

Namaste,

Mystykal

Richard Amiel McGough
08-18-2013, 06:40 AM
Hi Richard:
I really am glad you have laid out the different perspectives as you see them. it's all good! I am not intimidated by your questions.... I once was in your boat! I too have lived in that world... I just choose to live in the world of the Masters now! i have personally experienced so many unexplainable things whic are from "the other side" I do not hesitate to go there or to talk about it dispite all the naysayers. I does not matter. In the end it is only you and the Great Mystery Spirit which will tango! It is only a personal understanding of the Spiritual Truth which will save us in the end. Withut that experience we will come up short and be eternally lost. Gone. vanished. Like a candle flame blown out! When we could have had eternal life. Living in the presence of the One Life. The Master of all the universe. The Creator. If we just had stuck to the path of wisdom. The path which all the wisdomkeepers have walked. If we just had developed the kind of faith which can move a mountain - we would have been given the prize of that eternal glory filled life with all of our family and friends! It's that simple. Take it or lieave it! That's the choice we each have to make. I for one, have chosen LIFE!

Hey there Mystykal,

Yesterday was rather hot, and the ride was long, so I found myself too tired to answer. But after a good night's sleep and a pleasant swim in our pool, I'm feeling refreshed.

I'm not sure you know enough about my position to say that you were "once in my boat." I doubt that could be true, because if you ever had been in my "boat" you would not give the answers you are giving. I get the impression you don't really understand my position at all. But that's OK - we are here to learn from each other.

Your beliefs are fascinating because it looks like you have invented (or adopted) a kind of "fundamentalist mysticism" that says my soul will be "eternally lost" if I do not find the "Spiritual Truth" that you have come to believe. It doesn't sound much different than Christian fundamentalism which says I will be "eternally lost" if I don't believe in Jesus and "get saved".

Where did you get the idea that the "Great Mystery Spirit" is going to reject and annihilate me if I don't achieve knowledge of the "Spiritual Truth" you believe in? To me, that sounds like all the religions that say "You must believe my dogma or you will not get eternal life". It sounds just like fundamentalist Christianity. It sounds like anything but the "Truth".

Your idea that YOUR DOGMAS are the UNIVERSAL TRUTH sounds like typical religious fundamentalism. There never has been any group of people, let alone "wisdomkeepers", who all taught the same thing. The only way you could come to that conclusion is if you defined a "wisdomkeeper" as someone who agreed with you and your beliefs! It looks like you are confusing you own ideas with the teachings of some imaginary "wisdomkeepers."

Who are these "wisdomkeepers"? Do they have names? Have they written any books? How do you discern a "wisdomkeeper" from other writers?

I'll let this post stand on its own, since I'd like an answer to these specific questions. I'll answer your other comments in another post.

Great chatting!

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
08-18-2013, 08:05 AM
As to your quesions.... I will try and answer them. I may have to come back and add some things later... so re-read this section several times if you care to.

You said:
Is not your interpretation a "man-made thing" as much as any other? How can you criticize other interpretations as "man-made" while keeping your own interpretation free from that criticism, unless you are claiming special divine status for your interpretation?

--- The difference between a common person and a "Christian" or a Master or a Mystic is this: The subtle powers which are not obvious to the natural eye are visible to them. We have many stories in all parts of the world about the mystical unexplainable things which even defy scientific explanation. Sure there are fakes! But I am talking about the real Miracles of Jesus, Elijah, and the like. You think that no one was ever inspired by the Spirit to make an axe head float? You think Jesus never walked on water? You think Peter did not walk on water? So since you do not believe in GOD of the Bible or any GOD which can be known, you just ignore a world of "spooky" things!

So, as you know the "new creation" or creature in Christ is supposed to have different abilities and mind/thoughts. This Spiritual change is often faked! But that does not negate the True transformation which DOES take place in the life of a person who has been united with the Master! I guess in that sense I would say that the Bible can be a book of controversy or a book full of gems of truth. It depends on the receiver's Spiritual connections. The Spirit does not change - people do!

You say that the "difference" is that the teachers you believe in are "real" whereas the others are "fakes". Great. I'd get the same answer from every member of every cult that has ever existed.

Why in the world would you believe that the miracle stories are true? It's a lot easier to make up a story about someone walking on water than to actually do it. And we know such stories have often been made up. And worse, the Bible is filled with blatant mythology, like the story of creation. So logic says you should be skeptical. But you are not. Why is that? Do you also believe that Muhammad rode a horse to the moon? Do you believe that the Galactic Overlord Xenu flew all the souls to planet earth 75,000,000 years ago in a spaceship that looked exactly like a DC-8? Do you have any principles to discern truth from error?

You are correct that I do not believe in the miracle stories of the Bible. And why not? For the same reason I don't believe in the miracle stories of the Quran and the Book of Mormon! There is no reason to believe them and good reasons to be skeptical. Simple as that. Why do you believe them? I doubt you can give a good reason that is logically consistent with your reasons for rejecting the mythology of other religions. It seems like you glory in gullibility and are highly skeptical about things that are scientifically well established. It seems upside down and backwards to me.



YOU said:There are a number of problems with your assertion that "this idea indicates that evil originated in ONE mind (Satan)". First, the Bible quotes God as saying "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7). Second, God's omniscience implies that he created Satan in such a way that Satan would ultimately be evil, so the origin of everything is ultimately the responsibility of the CREATOR. You diminish God when you say that anything could ORIGINATE outside of him (or so many Christians would argue, anyway). It's also a very simplistic understanding. We know nothing of the "origin of evil." You are taking fragments of ancient Hebrew literature and figuratively applying them to a poorly defined supernatural biblical character who is at times conflated with God. I don't think that's a good foundation for any real knowledge. How could you have any real confidence in such speculations?

Richard right off the bat let's get something straight!... YOU KNOW that the word evil in Isaiah 45:7 is an ENGLISH word for multiple words in Hebrew! I don't have time for your ridiculus supposition that GOD CREATED EVIL since GOD's Omniscience PROHIBITS ANY FREE WILL. You know that is complete nonesense. Now the verse you quoted is:

Isaiah 45:7 (AMP) | In Context | Whole Chapter
7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.

Footnotes:Isaiah 45:7 Moral evil proceeds from the will of men, but physical evil proceeds from the will of God.Isaiah 45:7XBackXIsaiah 45:7 (CEB) | In Context |
7 I form light and create darkness,
make prosperity and create doom;
I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Yes, the word used in that verse can refer to either moral or natural evil, so you can choose which meaning you want to believe applies in this case. Of course, it is the same word used in Gen 2:7 concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so the moral aspect weighs heavily. The context of the verse is all about how God alone is SOVEREIGN OVER ALL - it segues into the classic passage about how people are like CLAY in the hands of God the potter:
Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

Paul quotes this passage in Romans 9, the most famous passage that speaks of GOD'S ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY and how he creates evil people to use for his glory:
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 ¶ Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

This is how God's sovereignty has been understood by many of the leading "wisdomkeepers" of the Christian tradition, so it's arrogant for you to simply dismiss it as "nonsense". Whatever you think of Christian tradition, the same people who have passed down the Bible have interpreted things differently than you.

As an aside: This connection between Isaiah Chapter 45 and Bible Book 45 (Romans) (http://www.biblewheel.com/InnerWheels/Isaiah/Isaiah45.php) is one of the more striking examples of the Isaiah Bible Correlation.

Your comments are a perfect example of why no one could ever hope to find "truth" in the Bible. The conclusions depend upon the presuppositions and there is no way for anyone to test which is right and who is wrong. You are committed to your doctrine that God only does things that are "good" so you will find a way to force the words of the Bible to fit that doctrine. Others are committed to the doctrine that God is absolutely sovereign, and so they will force the words of the Bible to fit that doctrine. The words of the Bible are nothing but putty in the hands of such interpreters who BEGIN with a doctrine that they are committed to.

It's also interesting that you simply assume that the idea of "free will" is meaningful and relevant. Well, here's a news flash: philosophers have been twisting around that pole for two thousand years and they've never come to any consensus, so it is absurd for you to simply assert that you have all the answers that the greatest minds in history have failed to find.



YOU Said: You are playing fast and loose with the words of the Bible. They are putty in your hands. You mold them into whatever you want, even into meanings that are diametrically opposed to what they actually mean. How is it possible you can't see what you are doing?

And this brings us back to "man-made doctrines." That's exactly what you have done. The Bible plainly attributes much evil to God, but you don't like that so you make up the doctrine that Satan was the real "origin" of evil.

So, it is well known that early on in the Bible all things were credited to GOD. The later Greek notions of spliting light and darkness with good and evil and the whole duality notions was later applied by the translators to the Old Testament translation of the Septuagint in Greek. So your argument that I somehow am "diminishing" GOD's power in any way is wrong! You are the one who is simplistic! Your argument would be defeated by a first year student of theology! I am NOT playing with the WORDS of the BIBLE - YOU ARE! Enough said.

You comment makes no sense to me. If you admit that "all things were credited to GOD" (which is the root of the idea of God's absolute sovereignty) why do you now deny that he created moral evil? My comment that "You diminish God when you say that anything could ORIGINATE outside of him" stands. Merely shouting at me and throwing my words back in my face is not a meaningful response.

I am not the one playing with the words of the Bible. I have said nothing that isn't common knowledge amongst all competent scholars.



In my opinion all doctrines per se are "man-made". There is a difference between "doctrines" and "Truth". Truth can be found in doctrines but doctrines can change. truth does not! you are consuming terms. I think your logic is
Fallacious and down right absurd. But you act like you know the Bible when in fact you don't really understand the writing styles used or the meaning of the words themselves! Or you are just messing with me....

Talk about confusing terms! All words are "man-made" so any statement of "Truth" is man-made. It appears you are saying that "Truth" cannot be stated in words. If that's the case, then you have totally confused everything.

It is a little premature for you to be making blanket assertions about my lack of understanding Biblical "writing styles" since you have not shown any error in anything I have written. You need to show an actual error in something I've written, not merely claim that you are right.

I am not "messing with you." I have only been pointing out a few of the primary themes that the "Christian wisdomkeepers" have emphasized over the last two thousand years.



As to the Inca/Mayan population: YOU said: What makes you think they "left"? Where do you think they went? It seems you feel free to make up whatever wild speculations might enter your mind to fill every gap in your knowledge. It would be infinitely more likely that they were destroyed by a plague or famine than that they accessed secret wisdom and ascended to another dimension, don't you think?

Well maybe! But there are no known written materials indicating that from a highly sophisticated group and their writings that are here, talk about strange other-worldly beings.

http://www.carnegiemuseums.org/cmag/bk_issue/2003/sepoct/feature1.html

So that is the "official" rendition which ignores all the writings of these ancient civilizations and tries to explain the demise by some common natrual means.
But archeologists cannot do that to the Bible Story if Enoch! They cannot discredit so easily the story of Elijah and the "firery chariot". These individuals did find a way to "cross over to the other side" without dying! Of course you can buty your head in the sand and ignore the stories or you can try and understand the hidden significance of such ideas. Like a formula which must be understood before it can be used to create/alter reality the Hopi N.Am. natives tell of a creation story and of spirits and gods which interacted with people. All made-up fantasy? I doubt it... Considering that the shamans of all cultures even Jesus - tell us of "another place" from which they came and how they are going back!... "If Christ be not risen, then your faith is in vain." 1 Corinthians 15:14
And there it is again!... Faith is the one ingredient which opens up the passage way "to the other side!" Take it or leave it! Your gain or your loss!

Yes, there it is again. You reject the commonsense explanations (which are far and away the most likely) and go running after silly superstitions that are almost certainly false. This is why it is so ironic when you speak of "TRUTH" - everything you write is strongly biased towards things that are almost certainly false. Wow.

You say that "FAITH" is the way. Great. FAITH = GULLIBILITY. By your doctrine, only the stupid and ignorant make it to the other side. Scientologists, Muslims, Mormons, JWs, and every kind of mindless cult from the dawn of time is on your side. You say all anyone needs is FAITH IN THE TOOTH FAIRY??? Is that really what you are teaching? Of course not. You are saying that I must have "faith" in what is "true". But how do we know what is true? That brings us back to the necessity of skepticism.



YOU Said "Your quotation of Acts 1:11 is particularly ironic, because that is the verse Christian literalists use to justify their assertion about the literal return of Christ, but you don't believe the Bible is literal!

That's a lovely mystical interpretation. But is there any reason to believe it is true? And if it is true, why is the Bible written with so much crap in it that causes so much evil in the world?"


Acts 1:11 International Standard Version
They asked, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up toward heaven? This same Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you saw him go up into heaven."

Literalism... I did not say I don't take some of the Bible to be literal... I said I do not think that the Bible must be understod in a literal sense...in order to see the formula for immortality. In other words the Bible stories are much more than stories. They hold "formulas" by which we can perform "magic" and change the future and access immortality. That is NOT what most "Christians" today believe. The word "literalism" has taken on a theological meaning which I do not agree with in the sense that, the underlying riddle IS the important issue - not the story itself. Having said that, it does not imply that the story is not FACTUAL. The whole basis for the Bible is that it is "inspired". I do not believe in "word" inspiration. The Bible then should only be read in the original language in which it was written.... Like the Koran! This problem of inspiration is at the heart of the crap you attribute to "Christianity" and the Bible - with all of its errors and sexism. The FACT that the holographs exist at all should indicate that the words are not the "inspired" part of the Bible but rather the Author and the ideas hidden in the verses arrangement is where the truth ACTUALLY resides. Think about that!

Your comments seem very confused. You seem to be making a distinction between the "words" vs. the "ideas" of the Bible. But you don't really do that at all. You are constantly referring to the IDEAS that are expressed in the WORDS of the Bible.

It seems absurd to suggest a total disjunction between the words and the ideas of the Bible since the ideas are expressed in words. The reason the Bible Wheel and the the Holographs impressed me was because their structure coheres with the meaning of the plain text. The words had MEANING. It is absurd to suggest that the words don't have meaning whereas structural patterns made of those words do. Your ideas make no sense since we both know that you are using the MEANING OF THE WORDS when you speak of Jesus walking on water, the fiery chariot, and all that. So you are being inconsistent. The words are perfectly meaningful when you like the meaning, but you just toss them out and ignore them when you don't - as with the crap and the sexism.



The bottom line is this... The universe was either created or evolved... GOD is real or just a fake memory in the mind of man...The truth is present in the world or it does not exist..."God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" Hebrews 1:1,2

Take it or leave it! Faith is the key which unlocks Heaven's mysteries.

Namaste,

Mystykal

PS Remember Elijah! "If the Lord be GOD Hear ye him!
False dichotomy. The universe could have been created and then it could have evolved.

And it is utterly meaningless to speak of "GOD" as either "real or just a fake" because the term is not well defined at all! Do you mean the theistic style personal god who runs around "doing things" like any other bit player in the Cosmic Drama? Do you mean nothing but "Cosmic Consciousness"? Do you mean a being that is like a person, and who loves and hates and throws people in hell? Do you mean Allah, Apollo, Yahweh, or Zeus? Your comment is meaningless as it stands because the word "God" is not well defined at all.

And then you say that the "truth" is present in the world or it does not exist." That's nuts, given that any statement of "truth" is a man-made thing, including the whole Bible, but you say the Bible is inspired, but that words don't have truth rather the "ideas" contained in number patterns.... it's too much confusion. You need to slow down and say something that you really mean after you have given it some serious thought. Your comment are wild and undisciplined and difficult to discuss.

And in your final quote from the Bible, you exemplify the fundamentally sexist nature of the Bible. We have the MALE GOD, THE FATHER and HIS MALE SON JESUS. Is that really how you conceive of GOD?? AS MALE? TOTALLY MALE?

If "faith" is what unlocks the Heavens mysteries, then heavens mysteries are the stuff of mythology, superstitions, and ignorance.

Funny thing is - life began to get good on planet earth when folks finally learned that FAITH was the fast track to the grave. As long as people had FAITH in God to save them, they died miserable early deaths from easily prevented diseases.

SCIENCE has saved millions that GOD was happy to let die, no matter how much "Faith" they had and no matter how much they begged him to save them. It was SCIENCE that invented antibiotics, refrigerators, electricity, and everything else that has made life on this planet a million times better than when foolish people trusted in a God who wasn't there.

I think the conversation would be better if we took one thing at a time. They bloat very quickly when there are too many rabbit trails.

Great chatting!

Richard

David M
08-18-2013, 10:12 AM
Hello Mystykal


Hi David:
ONe quick comment to your comment about the TAO...
You act like everything we need is in the Bible.. Ok. Did you learn to type reading the Bible? Did you learn to do math reading the Bible? NO! So in the same way lots of people think that the English KJV is all they need to know the way to salvation. I think there is everything we need to know for salvation in the Bible as we have it today; the KJV for all its errors is still one of the best translations that require an understanding of the usage of words at the time it was translated. God’s word is not intended to teach us to read and write. It is not necessary to read and write; only to understand the spoken word. This is how God’s word was given to his chosen people. The commandments were first shouted down at Sinai and the people feared for their lives and did not want God to talk to them in that way again. They did say ; all God has said, we will do, and then immediately failed to keep their word.

I suggest that if we understand other cultures and how they relate to the truth then we can bring them the GOOD News as written in the Scriptures from their own writings and understandings in their own culture without destroying their truths which are the SAME truth spoken of by Jesus when He said, "Other sheep have I which are not of this fold. Them also must I bring... And there shall be ONE FOLD and ONE shepherd." This other fold is most likely Gentile believers. If what you say is true, you should be able to demonstrate how that can take place. You are saying that these cultures have the same truth as spoken by Jesus, then you must show me how that is so. From what you say, these other cultures should accept the words of Jesus. Surely, when Jesus said; (Matt 24: 14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. That is what is still being done today and there are those who are intent on making this happen and that God’s word is spread to all nations. The statistics will probably show that the number of converts from any culture is low.

The TAO is NOT a book! It is the way of all things! And what exactly is that way. Jesus said (John 14:6); I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. This is what other cultures have to accept. The problem is that other cultures exist because of tradition and we know how people hang on to tradition.
What is there in other cultures, that is superior to what God required of Israel? What evidence have you that God has not rejected all those other cultures. God chose Abraham and it was the nation that came out of Abraham’s descendants, who God chose to be his witness. Abraham was called out of Babylon. Babylon has become the symbol for the world, which is enmity with God. Israel was not a faithful witnesses and have suffered the consequences of their unfaithfulness, nevertheless, everything that has happened to the Jews is as a result of God keeping his word and the Jews are, by their very existence, a witness for God. (Isaiah 43:12) I have declared, and have saved, and I have showed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
God is very condemnatory of the cultural practices (idolatry) and God’s judgement is to come on all nations. How will these other cultures of which you speak be judged in God’s eyes? I am sure there is good to be found in all cultures, but equally, there is a lot to be condemned.

All the best
David

David M
08-18-2013, 10:58 AM
Hello Richard

I think a correction is in order.

It was SCIENCE that invented antibiotics, refrigerators, electricity, and everything else that has made life on this planet a million times better than when foolish people trusted in a God who wasn't there.

Science and technology are responsible for producing items like refrigerators that run off electricity (and gas). Science did not invent electricity. Science might have discovered what electricity is comprised of and the laws that govern electricity. Electricity is the conductance of electrons. What is lightening? Lightening is part of the natural elements and is produced naturally in thunderstorms. Lightening is the conductance of static charge (produced in the clouds) to ground. It is the same conductance that takes place in metal wires. Science has discovered how to generate electricity; science did not invent electricity.

It is not foolish to trust in God. According to God's word, the fool is the one who says; "there is no God". Foolishness is to think like the fool. It would be "foolish" for a fool to trust in a God, which they say does not exist.

Statistically, while what you say is true for millions upon millions, in the same way as "few are chosen", the same "few" are the ones who can be found as examples of God answering prayer and have personal reason to trust in God. I can trust in God purely from seeing God's promises and prophecies being fulfilled and that gives me trust for all the other things that God has promised to be fulfilled in the future. Because you cannot see the same as I do, does not mean that you are right. Only time will tell. We can all be blind when we want to be.

All the best
David

oxbox
08-18-2013, 11:11 AM
some girls was whispering with each other, looking to the other street side, where the slatterns poses for the pimps :
"go in humble sister, she is always possible" one of them laughs and sings like slatterns from the other side did:
"hit me baby one more time"
that is luxury for the spirit, helpful for the soul after dusk, when the lightning city awakes and your are a black sister of mercy dissing the crime of man.
the girls show is double and filled with mild taunt, but the are armed with black magic of owls after dusk. ...

have fun and g-d bless america

Richard Amiel McGough
08-18-2013, 12:26 PM
Hello Richard

I think a correction is in order.


]It was SCIENCE that invented antibiotics, refrigerators, electricity, and everything else that has made life on this planet a million times better than when foolish people trusted in a God who wasn't there.

Science and technology are responsible for producing items like refrigerators that run off electricity (and gas). Science did not invent electricity. Science might have discovered what electricity is comprised of and the laws that govern electricity. Electricity is the conductance of electrons. What is lightening? Lightening is part of the natural elements and is produced naturally in thunderstorms. Lightening is the conductance of static charge (produced in the clouds) to ground. It is the same conductance that takes place in metal wires. Science has discovered how to generate electricity; science did not invent electricity.

Hey there David,

Of course science did not "invent" electricity. That's a pretty big "duh". Your comment is absurdly pedantic.



It is not foolish to trust in God. According to God's word, the fool is the one who says; "there is no God". Foolishness is to think like the fool. It would be "foolish" for a fool to trust in a God, which they say does not exist.

Nothing could be more foolish than to "trust" in someone that has proven to be absolutely untrustworthy. This is the one thing that all people know to be true about God - he cannot be TRUSTED to do anything for anyone. People are proven trustworthy every day. I trust the people who cook my food in a restaurant. I trust my doctor, my dentist, and my banker. Even my newspaper boy, who is only 98% reliable, is infinitely more trustworthy than the God of the Bible.



Statistically, while what you say is true for millions upon millions, in the same way as "few are chosen", the same "few" are the ones who can be found as examples of God answering prayer and have personal reason to trust in God. I can trust in God purely from seeing God's promises and prophecies being fulfilled and that gives me trust for all the other things that God has promised to be fulfilled in the future. Because you cannot see the same as I do, does not mean that you are right. Only time will tell. We can all be blind when we want to be.

Ha! What a freaking joke! First, we are not talking about God being "trustworthy" to fulfill some "prophecies" that different believers can't even agree about. We are talking about whether anyone can trust God to answer any prayers like "please heal my sick son" or "please save my daughter from being raped". The Bible constantly exhorts people to "trust God" and pray and trust that he will intervene, but everyone knows that he cannot be TRUSTED to answer. This is an absolute incontrovertible fact that no person can deny. God cannot be actually TRUSTED to do anything for anyone in any given situation.

Second, there are no "fulfilled prophecies." I proved you wrong a year ago and you ran away because I proved it and you could not support your argument. Your constant assertion that there are "fulfilled prophecies" is totally delusional, just like Hugh Ross who claimed that there are "about 2000 prophecies that have been fulfilled to the letter" when in fact that is not one! He's a total lunatic. I proved this in my article Two Thousand Reasons to Believe that Hugh Ross Might Not Be Entirely Credible (http://www.biblewheel.com/blog/index.php/2013/03/29/2000-reasons-to-believe-hugh-ross-might-be-wrong/). I invite you to try to refute it. Maybe then you will finally realize the absurdity of your constant claim that fulfilled prophecies prove the Bible. Of course, that claim is absurd also because even if there were a few fulfilled prophecies here or there in the Bible, it wouldn't prove that the whole Bible, or the version you prefer, is the Word of God. I've explained all this a hundred times to you and you have never responded with any understanding.

Nothing could be more FOOLISH than to trust a God who has established absolutely that he is utterly and absolutely UNTRUSTWORTHY.


Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
08-18-2013, 01:18 PM
I think we have to approach the Bible afresh and forget all the rubbish that has been spoken for the last few centuries and is continuing to be spoken by evangelical Christians or the like. Difficult as it might be to dismiss things which are burned into our mind, nevertheless, there are those who are waking up to the truth that is contained in the Bible and not believing what has been taught my mainstream Christendom for years going back to the time of Constantine.

Hey there David,

I agree - let's toss out the rubbish taught by "evangelical Christians". The best place to start would be to toss out their ludicrous dogma that the Bible can be trusted as the "Word of God". And of course we would want to toss out the silly doctrine that "Jesus saves" and that we should have "faith in God." It sound like a great plan to me!



We all claim to understand the plain and simple things written in the Bible, yet we accuse each other of error in understanding the simple things.

And why is that? We don't see similar irrational disagreements about the fundamentals in other studies like math or chemistry. But we do see a very similar problem is philosophy because philosophy is a matter of opinion and there is no way to prove who is right or wrong. Religion is like philosophy only worse because it is based on fundamentally fallacious presuppositions like "the Quran is the Word of God and Muhammad is his prophet."



When I said "no" to the question; can God's power be given to someone else, that is born out by the fact that not even Jesus could do anything of himself. Jesus had access to God's power by asking God. He thanked God in advance for the power that was made available to him. Anything Jesus spoke, God was prepared to do (even an idle word) and so the power of Jesus to perform miracles was actually God performing them.

Well, Jesus is quoted as saying "All power is GIVEN' unto me."



The Bible has everything we need to know which is essential to have a peaceful life and for salvation.

Why would anyone say that? It doesn't seem true at all. From what I've seen, the Bible teaches people how to be miserable and live lives of falsehood and delusion. And you apparently agree, because you think that the vast majority of Christians who have ever lived have been totally deluded, believing gross blasphemous falsehoods like "Jesus is God" and "angels can sin".



The ancient Jewish scriptures contained the Gospel message which was preached to Abraham (Gal 3:8). The test for me is; does any other literature agree with God's word as recorded in the ancient Jewish scriptures?

Why would that be a test? Why do you make the "ancient Jewish scriptures" the standard. And the fact that the NT says something doesn't mean it is true. You comment is a textbook example of the logical fallacy known as Begging the Question. You are assuming that which you think you are proving.



If the Tao was inspired by God for a purpose, I think God would have made known the purpose.

The word "Tao" means "The Way." It is not a book that is inspired. It is supposed to be a description of reality.



Wise as these works are, if not caused by the inspiration of God, then they are the works of man.

The Bible is obviously the "works of man." There are different versions, so you must trust MEN to tell you which version, if any, is supposed to be "inspired." You know that there is absolutely no way for you to prove that Revelation of Philemon or any other book of the Bible is "inspired." So we all can see that you are just blowing smoke - you have now foundation for you most fundamental beliefs. How are you different than a Muslim or Mormon or "evangelical Christian"? You never answer this question. You constantly repeat the dogmas of your religion that you have learned by the "works of men" but you never deal with the fact that your religion is indistinguishable from all the other religions that you reject. Why can't you see this? Nothing could be more obvious.



That is what we have to decide. I am convinced the Bible is divinely inspired,

Why? What "convinces" you? It can't be "fulfilled prophecies" because there aren't any. And even if there were, they would not justify one version over another. And it wouldn't even justify believing all the books are inspired since most books don't have anything to do with any prophecy. Why don't you understand this?


God is ONE and there is none else. This is what the Bible teaches and so any other works of literature, which if inspired, can only come from the one God. Therefore, we have to see harmony in all these sources, if the sources have their origin in God.

As I've already explained a million times, one man's "harmony" is another man's absurdity, so the concept of "harmony" proves nothing. The problem is that folks can force a false "harmony" by merely twisting words and playing with logic. And if my experience with you is any indication, this is what the "harmony" of your interpretations amounts to. I can't even find agreement with you on the most basic elements of logic, such as the Law of Non-Contradiction or the meaning of logical implications like P IMPLIES Q (which is logically equivalent to IF P THEN Q). This is why the conversations his a dead end. The only way you can protect your religious beliefs is to deny all logic.

Despite our many disagreements, I admire your perseverance. I just wish you would seek the GROUND OF REALITY which is based on propositions which all rational people necessarily agree upon, such as "IF P THEN Q" is logically identical to "P IMPLIES Q."

All the best,

Richard

Mystykal
08-18-2013, 06:06 PM
Hey there Mystykal,

Yesterday was rather hot, and the ride was long, so I found myself too tired to answer. But after a good night's sleep and a pleasant swim in our pool, I'm feeling refreshed.

I'm not sure you know enough about my position to say that you were "once in my boat." I doubt that could be true, because if you ever had been in my "boat" you would not give the answers you are giving. I get the impression you don't really understand my position at all. But that's OK - we are here to learn from each other.

Your beliefs are fascinating because it looks like you have invented (or adopted) a kind of "fundamentalist mysticism" that says my soul will be "eternally lost" if I do not find the "Spiritual Truth" that you have come to believe. It doesn't sound much different than Christian fundamentalism which says I will be "eternally lost" if I don't believe in Jesus and "get saved".

Where did you get the idea that the "Great Mystery Spirit" is going to reject and annihilate me if I don't achieve knowledge of the "Spiritual Truth" you believe in? To me, that sounds like all the religions that say "You must believe my dogma or you will not get eternal life". It sounds just like fundamentalist Christianity. It sounds like anything but the "Truth".

Your idea that YOUR DOGMAS are the UNIVERSAL TRUTH sounds like typical religious fundamentalism. There never has been any group of people, let alone "wisdomkeepers", who all taught the same thing. The only way you could come to that conclusion is if you defined a "wisdomkeeper" as someone who agreed with you and your beliefs! It looks like you are confusing you own ideas with the teachings of some imaginary "wisdomkeepers."

Who are these "wisdomkeepers"? Do they have names? Have they written any books? How do you discern a "wisdomkeeper" from other writers?

I'll let this post stand on its own, since I'd like an answer to these specific questions. I'll answer your other comments in another post.

Great chatting!

Richard

Hi Richard:
Where do I begin? You assume alot about me! :lol: I really thought that much of what you said was written as a joke... then I realized you were serious. The issue with you is that you are so intelligent that you assume alot of things about where people are coming from and then act like you did not do that. You want proof from things which may exist in reality but since there are religious in nature - you know they cannot be scientifically proven so you disregard them. Like you total disregard of the miracles in the Bible. You keep going back to the Koran as an example of falsehood and then assert that the GOD of the Bible including Jesus is FAKE! Well, that kind of makes all of your other argumanets pointless since you have already thrown out the divine authority Jews and Christians BELIEVE is the reality of their Bibles. Now, if all SPIRITUALITY is false - then why discuss any of it. I thought the reason for talking about something was to find the "truth" in it. "In the sameness you find the truth."
Now that doesn't mean that it is "good" truth or a truth which is benificial - it just means we can catergarize things and ideas into groups based on similarities. Ok.

The masters and mystics I talk about I do not see as "right" because I believe in their writings or sayings... I see them as oracles for the wisdom which comes from "GOD" - or the higher self awareness. We consider education to give us self - awareness and that is the first step in the process of understanding what we term "the mind of GOD". So your assertion that I "like these certain mystics" is false. It's not about like. It's about windows and doors to the other side... That place you think does not exist! :thumb:

YOU Said, "Your beliefs are fascinating because it looks like you have invented (or adopted) a kind of "fundamentalist mysticism" that says my soul will be "eternally lost" if I do not find the "Spiritual Truth" that you have come to believe. It doesn't sound much different than Christian fundamentalism which says I will be "eternally lost" if I don't believe in Jesus and "get saved".

First of all, I did not say anything about your soul ... The Bible does not teach that a soul exists! Like Buddha's notion of transient properties of the soul, the "soul" is a complex notion which does not exist without a physical body...Hence Job's statement about "after worms destroy my body, Yet in my FLESH shall I see GOD." Job 19:26 That's not a Fundamentalist concept! That is what the Word of GOD says. So the idea of Michael coming back for the BODY of Moses is consistant with this idea of "no soul" with out a human body.(Jude 1:9) Another reason why the Egyptians mummified everythig going over to the next life. They got it wrong only in the sense of timing! So that Fundalmentalist "Christians" have so screwed up the basic concepts of the Bible that I do not consider them really Christan anymore than I consider a Muslim to be Jewish! Although their dietary rules are quite the same!
So do not keep throwing me into a fundamentalist's camp mentality. The truth which saves is not "MY VERSION" of the truth - it is the truth PERIOD! If I have found it then LUCKY ME! And if I am self delusional then.... I have no immortality! But for you to dismiss all SPIRITUALITY as quackery is quite foolish - considering that all ideas which come from the "mind of GOD" hold that one thing in common! man-made or not the only way to obtain immortality is through a "Spiritual connection" to the other side. This is NOT some idea I made up! This is the conclusion of those who have experienced the other side. The right or wrong in something is pure comparison to another standard.

YOU Said, "Your idea that YOUR DOGMAS are the UNIVERSAL TRUTH sounds like typical religious fundamentalism. There never has been any group of people, let alone "wisdomkeepers", who all taught the same thing."
True enough... Yet their message tone and quiet ways are the same. Their words convey a truth about nature and revelation alike - testify to the love of GOD... This is their message. It is the same. Only the words and the faces change!. The test of a true seer/spiritual leader/messenger of GOD is in the way they receive their messages.

YOU Said, "Who are these "wisdomkeepers"? Do they have names? Have they written any books? How do you discern a "wisdomkeeper" from other writers? (Black Elk. Ruby Modesto. Marie McIntosh-Hopkins
Their experiences are "other - worldly" and they have had the Spiritual awakening which is present in all cultures)

If the true GOD aka Mystery Spirit, says this is the way, walk ye in it!" then a person should heed the message and follow the pattern set out from the beginning of time. The meditative process is NOT up for debate! It is the ONLY way to experience the Spiritual side of life. Take it or leave it! Life is about choices. Life is NOT about doubting any and everything. Questions are fine! But doubt is NOT healthy. It leads to great mental disturbances and chaos. The yuwipi ceremony teaches us that! The Native American culture had a Creator GOD Spirit long before the White man and his "Christian" GOD came to this land. The old ways are still the paths by which the Great Mystery Spirit touches our lives and gives us hope and faith in the future.

Namaste,

Mystykal

tbc

David M
08-18-2013, 07:24 PM
Hello Richard

Hey there David,

I agree - let's toss out the rubbish taught by "evangelical Christians". The best place to start would be to toss out their ludicrous dogma that the Bible can be trusted as the "Word of God". And of course we would want to toss out the silly doctrine that "Jesus saves" and that we should have "faith in God." It sound like a great plan to me!. Banner headings like "Jesus saves" and "born again" can be dropped and in their place a proper understanding of Jesus as saviour should be understood and the phrase "born again" which is used by Jesus in one passage and repeated once in Peter's letter again must be correctly understood. Let's face it, as I heard recently when a set of Christians in America were asked some basic questions based on the Bible the results were astoundingly bad. Many so called Christians do not have a clue. It is like they have never read the Bible. I am in agreement with you about condemning many Christians, God will condemn them. We have the teaching of Jesus; (Matt 7:22) 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. That alone should make any Christian think "does Jesus mean me?" We have to examine ourselves and see how we measure up to the example set by Jesus. That is the measure by which God will judge everyone who is eligilble for judgement.



And why is that? We don't see similar irrational disagreements about the fundamentals in other studies like math or chemistry. But we do see a very similar problem is philosophy because philosophy is a matter of opinion and there is no way to prove who is right or wrong. Religion is like philosophy only worse because it is based on fundamentally fallacious presuppositions like "the Quran is the Word of God and Muhammad is his prophet." I agree and God's word has already summed up subjects like philosophy and theology; (Colossians 2:8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. and (2 Tim 3:5) Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Cor 3:19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. 21 Therefore let no man glory in men.



Well, Jesus is quoted as saying "All power is GIVEN' unto me." That has to be correctly understood and balanced with the other sayings of Jesus. For example (John 14:10); but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. The raising of Lazarus gives us an insight into the working relationship that Jesus had with God; (John 11:41)And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.


Why would anyone say that? It doesn't seem true at all. From what I've seen, the Bible teaches people how to be miserable and live lives of falsehood and delusion. And you apparently agree, because you think that the vast majority of Christians who have ever lived have been totally deluded, believing gross blasphemous falsehoods like "Jesus is God" and "angels can sin". The Bible does not teach people to lead miserable lives, it teaches the opposite. What the Bible teaches and what people do are the opposite. It is like when the Israelites agreed to do all that the LORD had commanded them and they they immediately did that which was an abomination to God. It is people who are two-minded and deceitful. You can present a one-sided view of the Bible and leave out the other side, and that is not being truthful. Just as well, I am here to present the opposite. God has presented us with a choice, and it is up to us to decide what choice to make; (Deut 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: The same applies to those who understand fully the message that comes from the Bible in which we are shown the lives of all types of person, good and bad and the requirements of God and the behaviour he expects of men and women. When summed up, that is the same choice we have as was given to Israel.


Why would that be a test? Why do you make the "ancient Jewish scriptures" the standard. And the fact that the NT says something doesn't mean it is true. You comment is a textbook example of the logical fallacy known as Begging the Question. You are assuming that which you think you are proving. The ancient Hebrew scriptures are written with the divine stamp of authority. They contain the reported words of God. Moses for example was told to write things down very plainly. If you have a better standard, then what is it? What grounds do you put forward for making that claim?


The word "Tao" means "The Way." It is not a book that is inspired. It is supposed to be a description of reality. This sounds like the work of men. There must be something written about Tao to explain what it is. I could say the reality is as Daniel says; (Dan 4:17) to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, God's plan and purpose can be seen to be working out by the very things that have and are taking place.


The Bible is obviously the "works of man." There are different versions, so you must trust MEN to tell you which version, if any, is supposed to be "inspired." You know that there is absolutely no way for you to prove that Revelation of Philemon or any other book of the Bible is "inspired." So we all can see that you are just blowing smoke - you have now foundation for you most fundamental beliefs. How are you different than a Muslim or Mormon or "evangelical Christian"? You never answer this question. You constantly repeat the dogmas of your religion that you have learned by the "works of men" but you never deal with the fact that your religion is indistinguishable from all the other religions that you reject. Why can't you see this? Nothing could be more obvious. Your use of the word trust is very loose. I do not trust any man. From the time that God's word was first written down under inspiration and revelation by God, then in the copying and translation of that word, men are involved and men are fallible and untrustworthy. For all the errors that have crept in to it, it is more accurate than many modern translations which have been written to support a particular view. Even the KJV has an element of bias though the intention was to have a translation of the Bible that the common person could read and which was not biassed.



Why? What "convinces" you? It can't be "fulfilled prophecies" because there aren't any. And even if there were, they would not justify one version over another. And it wouldn't even justify believing all the books are inspired since most books don't have anything to do with any prophecy. Why don't you understand this? I understand how you rationalize against the word of God. The prophecies against Tyre and Babylon are two examples of prophecies that came true. There are many prophecies that I could cite, but you deny them all. The evidence is there yet a person can blind themselves to the evidence.



As I've already explained a million times, one man's "harmony" is another man's absurdity, so the concept of "harmony" proves nothing. The problem is that folks can force a false "harmony" by merely twisting words and playing with logic. And if my experience with you is any indication, this is what the "harmony" of your interpretations amounts to. I can't even find agreement with you on the most basic elements of logic, such as the Law of Non-Contradiction or the meaning of logical implications like P IMPLIES Q (which is logically equivalent to IF P THEN Q). This is why the conversations his a dead end. The only way you can protect your religious beliefs is to deny all logic. Harmony can be found without "forcing". The problem is that the inaccuracies that have crept into the word of God can confound us. Putting aside things which do not make sense at first reading, there is plenty in the Bible that is harmonious. God is not the author of confusion. When we take positive statments like that, then anything which appears to be confusion at first reading, needs examination. Confusion is taken away by correctly knowing what the original Hebrew words are and what those words meant at the time they were penned. Errors can be found and eliminated and this is not "twisting" word. Finding a correct understanding is not "twisting". I know twisting goes on and that is what happens in modern translations of the Bible. We can say that translations of the Bible are the works or men, but the originally inspired words of God as written down by the scribes of what he prophets said, were not twisted words from the beginning. The Bible warns us against "lying words" and that is what we are faced with in the works of men.


Despite our many disagreements, I admire your perseverance. I just wish you would seek the GROUND OF REALITY which is based on propositions which all rational people necessarily agree upon, such as "IF P THEN Q" is logically identical to "P IMPLIES Q." I am seeking a ground of reality, that is why I want to debunk the myth and superstition that is mentioned in the Bible and that has been created around the Bible. Satan, the Devil, and the Serpent, I have tried to explain with a 21st century understanding. We can strip away the symbols and personification and see the reality. The enmity that is between God and man, God and the world, is all to do with the mind. That is why as Paul exhorts us; "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus" The mind of Jesus is not something you aspire to have and I try. That is one difference between us. If everyone simply obeyed the ten commandments there would be no conflict. The fact is that very few people aspire to live by those commandments. The rebellion of man to obey God is at the centre of all men's problems and the problems that are in the world. When you say, "there is no God" that leaves you on your own. Why should God do anything for you, when you take that attitude? You have hardened your heart against God and once a person's heart is hardened do we have a single example of someone softening their heart? That is why God has given up on people and classed them as reprobates. That is a very sad situation and that is reality. That is why "few" will be saved. God takes pleasure in the "few" and does not take pleasure in that so many refuse to accept him and his rules for living, which if followed are for the benefit of society and not to its detriment.

I shall persist on presenting the opposite view to the one you present, when I can clearly see that what you say, is not what God's word means. I have left the conversation about Angels rest; there is no point repeating myself now that I have given all the explanations I can give and there are no more explanations to give. I do not agree with your formulation with the words you have used. I never disagreed with basic logic, the same as I would not disagree with basic mathematics. It all comes down to communication using words and unless we agree on the understanding of the words and the phrases we use, then we shall never come to agreement on anything. The same problem is at the heart of understanding God's word. It is not twisting words, to get to their correct meaning, if anything, it is untwisting the words that have been already twisted. I am not twisting (making wicked) words, I am undoing the wickedness that has been done to God's original word. I am reliant upon language scholars to make corrections when the errors are spotted. Do I trust what all scholars say? No!

When faced with several choices of interpretation, what is wrong for selecting that which is in harmony with the whole? That is all I am doing. If I have made several wrong choices that on the face of it appear correct at first, then once that error is spotted, then that would force me to go back and make a different selection. It is back to our jigsaw puzzle. We are never going to fit every piece and as long as there are enough gaps, it is always possible for a piece to be fitted in the wrong place. With a normal jigsaw puzzle, the only way of knowing we have the pieces in the correct place is by comparing the picture that is being built up is with the picture printed on the box of the completed jigsaw puzzle. What has God stated for his purpose in creating the earth? That is the picture we are fitting the pieces into. The jigsaw is a picture like a chronology of man from the time of his creation to the time of establishment of God's kingdom in which there is no more sin/rebellion to God's way and all will be compliant with God's will.

There is so much in the Bible that a lifetime's reading cannot search it all out. We are scratching the surface and the vast majority of Christians who have never read most of the Bible cannot appreciate what God is telling us. God's message to Israel is what we have to take to ourselves, since individually we can all be like Israel. This is why so much can be gleaned from every phrase and chapter in the Bible. Isaiah chapter 55 for example in which God says; (11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. What is that saying to you? unless people have actually read these words and understood the implication and see how all of God's word is being accomplished, these words of God are lost to them. While certain verses are cherry picked, a lot of God's word goes unread. All the supporting verses are missed out. It is like seeing the stars and missing out all of the planets that do not shine brightly. We have to consider all, before we get a true picture of what God reveals to us through his inspired word. It is taking all of the verses into account, and seeing the harmony that is there that makes the Bible impossible to be a work of fiction and a work of man only. The Bible would be less coherent than it is (with the added errors) if it was a work of fiction. It is impossible for one mind human mind to conceive a work of fiction as complex as the Bible is without making great errors. It is even more impossible for independent people separated by space and time to create a combined work of fiction that would stand up. As long as you only consider the errors and do not accept valid corrections then you are bound to conclude the Bible is a fictional work. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong by taking the opposite view and accepting the Bible has a coherent and consistent message and then taking into consideration all the errors and making the true corrections. If that was not possible to do, I would have to agree with you, but since I have not come across anything which would lead me to think that my starting point was not the right place to start, then I remain true to the path I am taking. Man-made errors in transcription and translation are proof of man's involvement and fallibility, the errors are not proof for the non-existence of God.

All the best
David

Mystykal
08-18-2013, 09:47 PM
You say that the "difference" is that the teachers you believe in are "real" whereas the others are "fakes". Great. I'd get the same answer from every member of every cult that has ever existed.

Why in the world would you believe that the miracle stories are true? It's a lot easier to make up a story about someone walking on water than to actually do it. And we know such stories have often been made up. And worse, the Bible is filled with blatant mythology, like the story of creation. So logic says you should be skeptical. But you are not. Why is that? Do you also believe that Muhammad rode a horse to the moon? Do you believe that the Galactic Overlord Xenu flew all the souls to planet earth 75,000,000 years ago in a spaceship that looked exactly like a DC-8? Do you have any principles to discern truth from error?

You are correct that I do not believe in the miracle stories of the Bible. And why not? For the same reason I don't believe in the miracle stories of the Quran and the Book of Mormon! There is no reason to believe them and good reasons to be skeptical. Simple as that. Why do you believe them? I doubt you can give a good reason that is logically consistent with your reasons for rejecting the mythology of other religions. It seems like you glory in gullibility and are highly skeptical about things that are scientifically well established. It seems upside down and backwards to me.


Yes, the word used in that verse can refer to either moral or natural evil, so you can choose which meaning you want to believe applies in this case. Of course, it is the same word used in Gen 2:7 concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so the moral aspect weighs heavily. The context of the verse is all about how God alone is SOVEREIGN OVER ALL - it segues into the classic passage about how people are like CLAY in the hands of God the potter:
Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

Paul quotes this passage in Romans 9, the most famous passage that speaks of GOD'S ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY and how he creates evil people to use for his glory:
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 ¶ Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

This is how God's sovereignty has been understood by many of the leading "wisdomkeepers" of the Christian tradition, so it's arrogant for you to simply dismiss it as "nonsense". Whatever you think of Christian tradition, the same people who have passed down the Bible have interpreted things differently than you.

As an aside: This connection between Isaiah Chapter 45 and Bible Book 45 (Romans) (http://www.biblewheel.com/InnerWheels/Isaiah/Isaiah45.php) is one of the more striking examples of the Isaiah Bible Correlation.

Your comments are a perfect example of why no one could ever hope to find "truth" in the Bible. The conclusions depend upon the presuppositions and there is no way for anyone to test which is right and who is wrong. You are committed to your doctrine that God only does things that are "good" so you will find a way to force the words of the Bible to fit that doctrine. Others are committed to the doctrine that God is absolutely sovereign, and so they will force the words of the Bible to fit that doctrine. The words of the Bible are nothing but putty in the hands of such interpreters who BEGIN with a doctrine that they are committed to.

It's also interesting that you simply assume that the idea of "free will" is meaningful and relevant. Well, here's a news flash: philosophers have been twisting around that pole for two thousand years and they've never come to any consensus, so it is absurd for you to simply assert that you have all the answers that the greatest minds in history have failed to find.


You comment makes no sense to me. If you admit that "all things were credited to GOD" (which is the root of the idea of God's absolute sovereignty) why do you now deny that he created moral evil? My comment that "You diminish God when you say that anything could ORIGINATE outside of him" stands. Merely shouting at me and throwing my words back in my face is not a meaningful response.

I am not the one playing with the words of the Bible. I have said nothing that isn't common knowledge amongst all competent scholars.


Talk about confusing terms! All words are "man-made" so any statement of "Truth" is man-made. It appears you are saying that "Truth" cannot be stated in words. If that's the case, then you have totally confused everything.

It is a little premature for you to be making blanket assertions about my lack of understanding Biblical "writing styles" since you have not shown any error in anything I have written. You need to show an actual error in something I've written, not merely claim that you are right.

I am not "messing with you." I have only been pointing out a few of the primary themes that the "Christian wisdomkeepers" have emphasized over the last two thousand years.


Yes, there it is again. You reject the commonsense explanations (which are far and away the most likely) and go running after silly superstitions that are almost certainly false. This is why it is so ironic when you speak of "TRUTH" - everything you write is strongly biased towards things that are almost certainly false. Wow.

You say that "FAITH" is the way. Great. FAITH = GULLIBILITY. By your doctrine, only the stupid and ignorant make it to the other side. Scientologists, Muslims, Mormons, JWs, and every kind of mindless cult from the dawn of time is on your side. You say all anyone needs is FAITH IN THE TOOTH FAIRY??? Is that really what you are teaching? Of course not. You are saying that I must have "faith" in what is "true". But how do we know what is true? That brings us back to the necessity of skepticism.


Your comments seem very confused. You seem to be making a distinction between the "words" vs. the "ideas" of the Bible. But you don't really do that at all. You are constantly referring to the IDEAS that are expressed in the WORDS of the Bible.

It seems absurd to suggest a total disjunction between the words and the ideas of the Bible since the ideas are expressed in words. The reason the Bible Wheel and the the Holographs impressed me was because their structure coheres with the meaning of the plain text. The words had MEANING. It is absurd to suggest that the words don't have meaning whereas structural patterns made of those words do. Your ideas make no sense since we both know that you are using the MEANING OF THE WORDS when you speak of Jesus walking on water, the fiery chariot, and all that. So you are being inconsistent. The words are perfectly meaningful when you like the meaning, but you just toss them out and ignore them when you don't - as with the crap and the sexism.


False dichotomy. The universe could have been created and then it could have evolved.

And it is utterly meaningless to speak of "GOD" as either "real or just a fake" because the term is not well defined at all! Do you mean the theistic style personal god who runs around "doing things" like any other bit player in the Cosmic Drama? Do you mean nothing but "Cosmic Consciousness"? Do you mean a being that is like a person, and who loves and hates and throws people in hell? Do you mean Allah, Apollo, Yahweh, or Zeus? Your comment is meaningless as it stands because the word "God" is not well defined at all.

And then you say that the "truth" is present in the world or it does not exist." That's nuts, given that any statement of "truth" is a man-made thing, including the whole Bible, but you say the Bible is inspired, but that words don't have truth rather the "ideas" contained in number patterns.... it's too much confusion. You need to slow down and say something that you really mean after you have given it some serious thought. Your comment are wild and undisciplined and difficult to discuss.

And in your final quote from the Bible, you exemplify the fundamentally sexist nature of the Bible. We have the MALE GOD, THE FATHER and HIS MALE SON JESUS. Is that really how you conceive of GOD?? AS MALE? TOTALLY MALE?

If "faith" is what unlocks the Heavens mysteries, then heavens mysteries are the stuff of mythology, superstitions, and ignorance.

Funny thing is - life began to get good on planet earth when folks finally learned that FAITH was the fast track to the grave. As long as people had FAITH in God to save them, they died miserable early deaths from easily prevented diseases.

SCIENCE has saved millions that GOD was happy to let die, no matter how much "Faith" they had and no matter how much they begged him to save them. It was SCIENCE that invented antibiotics, refrigerators, electricity, and everything else that has made life on this planet a million times better than when foolish people trusted in a God who wasn't there.

I think the conversation would be better if we took one thing at a time. They bloat very quickly when there are too many rabbit trails.

Great chatting!

Richard

Hi Richard:
WOW! Thanks for taking the time to express yourself! I really enjoyed reading all your views on my comments. Of course we are in the weeds for sure now! But I enjoy the idea of taking on a challenge which is not a challenge! Something very Zen about it!:lol: Now I agree with you that we need to slow down and take all these ideas apart one at a time...

YOU Said,"You say that the "difference" is that the teachers you believe in are "real" whereas the others are "fakes". Great. I'd get the same answer from every member of every cult that has ever existed.

TRUE!... However, I think that martial arts is a great example of truth and no truth... Have you ever talked to over 100 martial art "masters"? I have! And have you ever looked at them and wondered if they were telling the truth? I have... And have you ever thought "All of them are just wack jobs!" I did once. Then I met a TRUE martial art master... NO I do not think like him... And no he is not religious like me... and no he is not a vegetarian like me! But his eyes tell a story... His style of martial arts is superb! And yet he is humble to a fault... He hides the real techniques from the masses who come to learn for no other reason than to learn to fight... And yet to the true seeker of the way of Bushido the door will be left ajar... To the true doshi (student) the mat will become the playground of all learning and discipline... When the student is ready the master appears! That is not my opinion! It is a fact of life...
Martial arts are NOT a cult - but many of the common students view their master as a GOD! But in truth the master is only human - with skills verging on Spiritual perfection!...

You act like everything in life is fake! Outside of the test tube of science you just discount all things as being unknown... well that's fine until you experience the true way of being a human... The spiritual side of life is NOT fake. Many do fake their connection to the Master... But when the true seeker finds the Master then everything changes...

================
YOU Said. "Why in the world would you believe that the miracle stories are true? It's a lot easier to make up a story about someone walking on water than to actually do it. And we know such stories have often been made up. And worse, the Bible is filled with blatant mythology, like the story of creation. So logic says you should be skeptical. But you are not. Why is that?

Then you connected the Islam story of the horse going up to heaven... I question everything. But what I do not do is debate the known assumptions which go along with the story... So that the Creation story as written in Genesis can be the only story which fills in the "assumptions" given to the Creator GOD of Jacob. To try and edit the details of a story from the character being described is silly. If the GOD of creation is GOD in real time - then the "GOD Model" found in the Genesis story MUST be taken as FACT regardless of the assumptions which are clearly present in the story. This is how the "mystery" of GOD takes shape. If on the other hand the Creation story is a "myth" creation story - then Peter needs to be removed from the Bible as he asserts, as do other Biblical writers, that "we do not follow cunningly devised fables - But were eyewitnesses to his glory..." ll Peter 1:16


YOU Said, "Your comments seem very confused. You seem to be making a distinction between the "words" vs. the "ideas" of the Bible. But you don't really do that at all. You are constantly referring to the IDEAS that are expressed in the WORDS of the Bible.

It seems absurd to suggest a total distinction between the words and the ideas of the Bible since the ideas are expressed in words.

---Well, Let me explain a little more. I am suggesting that the idea which is trying to be made in words is more important than the words themselves. Most Fundalmentalists fight for the notion that the WORDS as WRITTEN in ENGLISH are INSPIRED. I do not think so! That would mean only ONE BIBLE translation would be "inspired" since each word would not be able to be changed even into another language! Like the Catholics used to say that Latin was the "Official" language of the church and the Bible was read in that language and the people had no idea what was being said!

So although the words can give meaning to the idea of the original thought - often times the word used in one language to express the idea in another language is lost in translation. This is especially true with idioms in Hebrew and Greek. So it is of utmost importance to see beyond the words themselves in English and try and see the MEANING in the original phrase or words before creating theology out of a particular verse.

YOU Said. "False dichotomy. The universe could have been created and then it could have evolved."

A NO! And No! ASSUMING the word evolve means something other than "to create." The word for empty in Genesis Boohuw - has the idea of vaccuum limitless nothing. Meaning that creation by definition started from NOTHING! "In the beginning was the Word." It is word creation not an evolving state of "something" already established morphing into something else over time - as you suggest. Now, I have no poblem with the idea that things and animals have "evolved" over time in a limited self-contained system. But in the beginning, all things were spoken into exsistence according to the creation word model.

You Said. "Whatever you think of Christian tradition, the same people who have passed down the Bible have interpreted things differently than you."

I totally agree... Except these people who passed down the Scriptures do not have a "lock" on the meaning of the Bible in any way! It is not about intelligence! It is about Spirit... I know everyone claims to have the spirit but few do. However truth is progressive... So Luther rejected certain traditions and created dogmas which were then revised by Wesley who then was trumped by Miller and on and on it goes. So just because the truth of the Word is not uncovered by all people in the same way at the same time, does not invalidate the fact that the Spirit is guiding a select few in every generation to the Ultimate truths held hidden in the Bible and in the Word of GOD. That person you insist does not exist! You cannot keep switching from defending the old interpretations of the Bible and then deny the GOD MODEL of the Bible and the miracles of GOD in the Bible. Either the Bible as a whole is inspired or it is not! That does not mean that there are no errors! But the Holy Spirit is promised to correct those errors in time and "guide us into all truth!" It does not matter that those who lived in the past did not understand ALL of the meaning hidden in the Bible... The Spirit's job is to enlighten the mind of those who ask. Everyone else is comes from darkness.

YOU Said, "You comment makes no sense to me. If you admit that "all things were credited to GOD" (which is the root of the idea of God's absolute sovereignty) why do you now deny that he created moral evil?"

The Bible is quite direct in its assertion that good and evil (as in the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil) are things which GOD who is "GOOD" cannot "create" or be a part of.

James 1:17 KJV
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. "No variables = no evil"

NIV(modern English translation of the same greek text)
17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

“His works are perfect. All of his ways are right. He is faithful. He doesn’t do anything wrong. He is honest and fair” (Deuteronomy 32:4b).

So, moral evil v/s any other kind of evil is a theological splitting of hairs - but as a rule GOD cannot sin or do evil-period.

YOU Said, "Talk about confusing terms! All words are "man-made" so any statement of "Truth" is man-made. It appears you are saying that "Truth" cannot be stated in words. If that's the case, then you have totally confused everything.

I am not suggesting that words are not man-made. But the meaning of the ARRANGEMENT of the words constitutes "TRUTH and that is NOT man-made. YOU ARE WRONG in your twisting of logic as to the connection between words and their MEANINGS! Now let me repeat - you say I am premature in my assessment of your ideas not being correct in reference to how the Bible is written... yet you continue to deny the "style" of the insertion of miracles throughout the Bible. You just say that GOD does not do those things or that Jesus did not exist as GOD or that miracles are not possible because GOD does not exist! Your circular logic is pathetic! And yes you can disagree with me... I aint mad atcha...:winking0071: I enjoy understanding your perspective... It is fascinating to me!!

And yes I do believe that the Ultimate truth does come through the "still (silent) small voice" - which is only heard throught he meditative process/ "Be still and know that I am GOD." The truth only comes when a person has set aside all pre-conceived notions and sits in quiet waiting for the Spirit to speak.

YOU Said, "You say that "FAITH" is the way. Great. FAITH = GULLIBILITY. By your doctrine, only the stupid and ignorant make it to the other side."

Yup... so be it! Jesus said, "Those that are whole have no need for a physician.... Blessed are they that cry after rightiousness for they shall be filled. Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see GOD."

Namaste,

Mystykal

Scott
08-19-2013, 06:25 AM
We are living, breathing,reproducing flesh machines,and denial is completely foolish,that we dont have a Creator.You will never see a car come into existance without a Creator,especially one that reproduces itself,no matter how much time is given for this to occur. Once this fact is realized,we go to step 2, the Creator would give us some idea whats going on, so we now search for truth,if we are in a position to do so,which most people are [if not he has that situation covered also].The Bible message doesnt come across as Perfect[on the surface that is]but it still makes the most sense,BY FAR,so common sense tells us that we have to trust one of the explainations given to us on this planet,so we have to go with the one that explains our situation the best,and the fact that the Bible is also designed with numeric miracles,it would make no sense,not to accept it as the Truth to our situation. If its not true,then none of the explainations are true,and it would make sense then to choose our own ending to our life,especially those who have had to live horrible lives,because they would have no hope.Why would they stay on earth and suffer into old age,when their existance is completely pointless,and perhaps die a very horrible death,when their awful life reaches its end,and no afterlife or Loving Creator is waiting for them when they pass through death.

duxrow
08-19-2013, 06:38 AM
HEAR, HEAR.. :signthankspin:
That's a great paragraph, Scott -- is it original with you? Love it, and thanks.
dux

Scott
08-19-2013, 06:56 AM
Thankyou Dux,and yes i was speaking from my own experiance with life,thats how it unfolded for me,and one day i knew thats as good as it gets[information wise]and God spoke to my heart and said decide,which is it,and i said ,its a no brainer, IM GOIN WITH YOU BIG GUY !

Timmy
08-19-2013, 07:21 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh44QPT1mPE


Your living this life is just as important as every other, yet it is one fragment of the Tao.

Tao is simply the oriental way of saying "the will of God manifested" through all natural and supernal occurrences (being one).

Toa is the dictation of life as it is (unfolding).

When you come to the path that is not any humanly contrived way, then you may perhaps begin to walk this, the path of the Tao...that is, if you have the intestinal fortitude.



It's elementary, dear Watson.


You perhaps understand puns are usually a play on words.
Well, it has also been done with koans.
Here is one example. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6rHeD5x2tI).



A little kotz goes a long way:

ޜ

Mystykal
08-19-2013, 08:46 PM
What are you saying?! :eek:
Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough
You say that the "difference" is that the teachers you believe in are "real" whereas the others are "fakes". Great. I'd get the same answer from every member of every cult that has ever existed.

Why in the world would you believe that the miracle stories are true? It's a lot easier to make up a story about someone walking on water than to actually do it. And we know such stories have often been made up. And worse, the Bible is filled with blatant mythology, like the story of creation. So logic says you should be skeptical. But you are not. Why is that? Do you also believe that Muhammad rode a horse to the moon? Do you believe that the Galactic Overlord Xenu flew all the souls to planet earth 75,000,000 years ago in a spaceship that looked exactly like a DC-8? Do you have any principles to discern truth from error?

You are correct that I do not believe in the miracle stories of the Bible. And why not? For the same reason I don't believe in the miracle stories of the Quran and the Book of Mormon! There is no reason to believe them and good reasons to be skeptical. Simple as that. Why do you believe them? I doubt you can give a good reason that is logically consistent with your reasons for rejecting the mythology of other religions. It seems like you glory in gullibility and are highly skeptical about things that are scientifically well established. It seems upside down and backwards to me.


Yes, the word used in that verse can refer to either moral or natural evil, so you can choose which meaning you want to believe applies in this case. Of course, it is the same word used in Gen 2:7 concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so the moral aspect weighs heavily. The context of the verse is all about how God alone is SOVEREIGN OVER ALL - it segues into the classic passage about how people are like CLAY in the hands of God the potter:
Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
Paul quotes this passage in Romans 9, the most famous passage that speaks of GOD'S ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY and how he creates evil people to use for his glory:
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 ¶ Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
This is how God's sovereignty has been understood by many of the leading "wisdomkeepers" of the Christian tradition, so it's arrogant for you to simply dismiss it as "nonsense". Whatever you think of Christian tradition, the same people who have passed down the Bible have interpreted things differently than you.

As an aside: This connection between Isaiah Chapter 45 and Bible Book 45 (Romans) is one of the more striking examples of the Isaiah Bible Correlation.

Your comments are a perfect example of why no one could ever hope to find "truth" in the Bible. The conclusions depend upon the presuppositions and there is no way for anyone to test which is right and who is wrong. You are committed to your doctrine that God only does things that are "good" so you will find a way to force the words of the Bible to fit that doctrine. Others are committed to the doctrine that God is absolutely sovereign, and so they will force the words of the Bible to fit that doctrine. The words of the Bible are nothing but putty in the hands of such interpreters who BEGIN with a doctrine that they are committed to.

It's also interesting that you simply assume that the idea of "free will" is meaningful and relevant. Well, here's a news flash: philosophers have been twisting around that pole for two thousand years and they've never come to any consensus, so it is absurd for you to simply assert that you have all the answers that the greatest minds in history have failed to find.


You comment makes no sense to me. If you admit that "all things were credited to GOD" (which is the root of the idea of God's absolute sovereignty) why do you now deny that he created moral evil? My comment that "You diminish God when you say that anything could ORIGINATE outside of him" stands. Merely shouting at me and throwing my words back in my face is not a meaningful response.

I am not the one playing with the words of the Bible. I have said nothing that isn't common knowledge amongst all competent scholars.


Talk about confusing terms! All words are "man-made" so any statement of "Truth" is man-made. It appears you are saying that "Truth" cannot be stated in words. If that's the case, then you have totally confused everything.

It is a little premature for you to be making blanket assertions about my lack of understanding Biblical "writing styles" since you have not shown any error in anything I have written. You need to show an actual error in something I've written, not merely claim that you are right.

I am not "messing with you." I have only been pointing out a few of the primary themes that the "Christian wisdomkeepers" have emphasized over the last two thousand years.


Yes, there it is again. You reject the commonsense explanations (which are far and away the most likely) and go running after silly superstitions that are almost certainly false. This is why it is so ironic when you speak of "TRUTH" - everything you write is strongly biased towards things that are almost certainly false. Wow.

You say that "FAITH" is the way. Great. FAITH = GULLIBILITY. By your doctrine, only the stupid and ignorant make it to the other side. Scientologists, Muslims, Mormons, JWs, and every kind of mindless cult from the dawn of time is on your side. You say all anyone needs is FAITH IN THE TOOTH FAIRY??? Is that really what you are teaching? Of course not. You are saying that I must have "faith" in what is "true". But how do we know what is true? That brings us back to the necessity of skepticism.


Your comments seem very confused. You seem to be making a distinction between the "words" vs. the "ideas" of the Bible. But you don't really do that at all. You are constantly referring to the IDEAS that are expressed in the WORDS of the Bible.

It seems absurd to suggest a total disjunction between the words and the ideas of the Bible since the ideas are expressed in words. The reason the Bible Wheel and the the Holographs impressed me was because their structure coheres with the meaning of the plain text. The words had MEANING. It is absurd to suggest that the words don't have meaning whereas structural patterns made of those words do. Your ideas make no sense since we both know that you are using the MEANING OF THE WORDS when you speak of Jesus walking on water, the fiery chariot, and all that. So you are being inconsistent. The words are perfectly meaningful when you like the meaning, but you just toss them out and ignore them when you don't - as with the crap and the sexism.


False dichotomy. The universe could have been created and then it could have evolved.

And it is utterly meaningless to speak of "GOD" as either "real or just a fake" because the term is not well defined at all! Do you mean the theistic style personal god who runs around "doing things" like any other bit player in the Cosmic Drama? Do you mean nothing but "Cosmic Consciousness"? Do you mean a being that is like a person, and who loves and hates and throws people in hell? Do you mean Allah, Apollo, Yahweh, or Zeus? Your comment is meaningless as it stands because the word "God" is not well defined at all.

And then you say that the "truth" is present in the world or it does not exist." That's nuts, given that any statement of "truth" is a man-made thing, including the whole Bible, but you say the Bible is inspired, but that words don't have truth rather the "ideas" contained in number patterns.... it's too much confusion. You need to slow down and say something that you really mean after you have given it some serious thought. Your comment are wild and undisciplined and difficult to discuss.

And in your final quote from the Bible, you exemplify the fundamentally sexist nature of the Bible. We have the MALE GOD, THE FATHER and HIS MALE SON JESUS. Is that really how you conceive of GOD?? AS MALE? TOTALLY MALE?

If "faith" is what unlocks the Heavens mysteries, then heavens mysteries are the stuff of mythology, superstitions, and ignorance.

Funny thing is - life began to get good on planet earth when folks finally learned that FAITH was the fast track to the grave. As long as people had FAITH in God to save them, they died miserable early deaths from easily prevented diseases.

SCIENCE has saved millions that GOD was happy to let die, no matter how much "Faith" they had and no matter how much they begged him to save them. It was SCIENCE that invented antibiotics, refrigerators, electricity, and everything else that has made life on this planet a million times better than when foolish people trusted in a God who wasn't there.

I think the conversation would be better if we took one thing at a time. They bloat very quickly when there are too many rabbit trails.

Great chatting!
Richard
=======================

Hi Richard:
WOW! Thanks for taking the time to express yourself! I really enjoyed reading all your views on my comments. Of course we are in the weeds for sure now! But I enjoy the idea of taking on a challenge which is not a challenge! Something very Zen about it! Now I agree with you that we need to slow down and take all these ideas apart one at a time...

YOU Said,"You say that the "difference" is that the teachers you believe in are "real" whereas the others are "fakes". Great. I'd get the same answer from every member of every cult that has ever existed.

TRUE!... However, I think that martial arts is a great example of truth and no truth... Have you ever talked to over 100 martial art "masters"? I have! And have you ever looked at them and wondered if they were telling the truth? I have... And have you ever thought "All of them are just wack jobs!" I did once. Then I met a TRUE martial art master... NO I do not think like him... And no he is not religious like me... and no he is not a vegetarian like me! But his eyes tell a story... His style of martial arts is superb! And yet he is humble to a fault... He hides the real techniques from the masses who come to learn for no other reason than to learn to fight... And yet to the true seeker of the way of Bushido the door will be left ajar... To the true doshi (student) the mat will become the playground of all learning and discipline... When the student is ready the master appears! That is not my opinion! It is a fact of life...
Martial arts are NOT a cult - but many of the common students view their master as a GOD! But in truth the master is only human - with skills verging on Spiritual perfection!...

You act like everything in life is fake! Outside of the test tube of science you just discount all things as being unknown... well that's fine until you experience the true way of being a human... The spiritual side of life is NOT fake. Many do fake their connection to the Master... But when the true seeker finds the Master then everything changes...

================
YOU Said. "Why in the world would you believe that the miracle stories are true? It's a lot easier to make up a story about someone walking on water than to actually do it. And we know such stories have often been made up. And worse, the Bible is filled with blatant mythology, like the story of creation. So logic says you should be skeptical. But you are not. Why is that?

Then you connected the Islam story of the horse going up to heaven... I question everything. But what I do not do is debate the known assumptions which go along with the story... So that the Creation story as written in Genesis can be the only story which fills in the "assumptions" given to the Creator GOD of Jacob. To try and edit the details of a story from the character being described is silly. If the GOD of creation is GOD in real time - then the "GOD Model" found in the Genesis story MUST be taken as FACT regardless of the assumptions which are clearly present in the story. This is how the "mystery" of GOD takes shape. If on the other hand the Creation story is a "myth" creation story - then Peter needs to be removed from the Bible as he asserts, as do other Biblical writers, that "we do not follow cunningly devised fables - But were eyewitnesses to his glory..." ll Peter 1:16


YOU Said, "Your comments seem very confused. You seem to be making a distinction between the "words" vs. the "ideas" of the Bible. But you don't really do that at all. You are constantly referring to the IDEAS that are expressed in the WORDS of the Bible. It seems absurd to suggest a total distinction between the words and the ideas of the Bible since the ideas are expressed in words.

Well, Let me explain a little more. I am suggesting that the idea which is trying to be made in words is more important than the words themselves. Most Fundalmentalists fight for the notion that the WORDS as WRITTEN in ENGLISH are INSPIRED. I do not think so! That would mean only ONE BIBLE translation would be "inspired" since each word would not be able to be changed even into another language! Like the Catholics used to say that Latin was the "Official" language of the church and the Bible was read in that language and the people had no idea what was being said!

So although the words can give meaning to the idea of the original thought - often times the word used in one language to express the idea in another language is lost in translation. This is especially true with idioms in Hebrew and Greek. So it is of utmost importance to see beyond the words themselves in English and try and see the MEANING in the original phrase or words before creating theology out of a particular verse.

YOU Said. "False dichotomy. The universe could have been created and then it could have evolved."

A NO! And No! ASSUMING the word evolve means something other than "to create." The word for empty in Genesis Boohuw - has the idea of vaccuum limitless nothing. Meaning that creation by definition started from NOTHING! "In the beginning was the Word." It is word creation not an evolving state of "something" already established morphing into something else over time - as you suggest. Now, I have no poblem with the idea that things and animals have "evolved" over time in a limited self-contained system. But in the beginning, all things were spoken into exsistence according to the creation word model.

You Said. "Whatever you think of Christian tradition, the same people who have passed down the Bible have interpreted things differently than you."

I totally agree... Except these people who passed down the Scriptures do not have a "lock" on the meaning of the Bible in any way! It is not about intelligence! It is about Spirit... I know everyone claims to have the spirit but few do. However truth is progressive... So Luther rejected certain traditions and created dogmas which were then revised by Wesley who then was trumped by Miller and on and on it goes. So just because the truth of the Word is not uncovered by all people in the same way at the same time, does not invalidate the fact that the Spirit is guiding a select few in every generation to the Ultimate truths held hidden in the Bible and in the Word of GOD. That person you insist does not exist! You cannot keep switching from defending the old interpretations of the Bible and then deny the GOD MODEL of the Bible and the miracles of GOD in the Bible. Either the Bible as a whole is inspired or it is not! That does not mean that there are no errors! But the Holy Spirit is promised to correct those errors in time and "guide us into all truth!" It does not matter that those who lived in the past did not understand ALL of the meaning hidden in the Bible... The Spirit's job is to enlighten the mind of those who ask. Everyone else is comes from darkness.

YOU Said, "You comment makes no sense to me. If you admit that "all things were credited to GOD" (which is the root of the idea of God's absolute sovereignty) why do you now deny that he created moral evil?"

The Bible is quite direct in its assertion that good and evil (as in the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil) are things which GOD who is "GOOD" cannot "create" or be a part of.

James 1:17 KJV
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. "No variables = no evil"

NIV(modern English translation of the same greek text)
17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

“His works are perfect. All of his ways are right. He is faithful. He doesn’t do anything wrong. He is honest and fair” (Deuteronomy 32:4b).

So, moral evil v/s any other kind of evil is a theological splitting of hairs - but as a rule GOD cannot sin or do evil-period.

YOU Said, "Talk about confusing terms! All words are "man-made" so any statement of "Truth" is man-made. It appears you are saying that "Truth" cannot be stated in words. If that's the case, then you have totally confused everything.

I am not suggesting that words are not man-made. But the meaning of the ARRANGEMENT of the words constitutes "TRUTH and that is NOT man-made. YOU ARE WRONG in your twisting of logic as to the connection between words and their MEANINGS! Now let me repeat - you say I am premature in my assessment of your ideas not being correct in reference to how the Bible is written... yet you continue to deny the "style" of the insertion of miracles throughout the Bible. You just say that GOD does not do those things or that Jesus did not exist as GOD or that miracles are not possible because GOD does not exist! Your circular logic is pathetic! And yes you can disagree with me... I aint mad atcha... I enjoy understanding your perspective... It is fascinating to me!!

And yes I do believe that the Ultimate truth does come through the "still (silent) small voice" - which is only heard throught he meditative process/ "Be still and know that I am GOD." The truth only comes when a person has set aside all pre-conceived notions and sits in quiet waiting for the Spirit to speak.

YOU Said, "You say that "FAITH" is the way. Great. FAITH = GULLIBILITY. By your doctrine, only the stupid and ignorant make it to the other side."

Yup... so be it! Jesus said, "Those that are whole have no need for a physician.... Blessed are they that cry after rightiousness for they shall be filled. Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see GOD."

Namaste,

Mystykal

SOPHIA-BAPHOMET777
02-09-2014, 01:42 AM
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Western Union Telegram

To: Jehovah-Yahweh
Care: Celestial Hotel (Suite #666)
Presidential Tier, Paradise

Dear God;
This is to inform you that your current position as diety is herewith
TERNMINATED due to GROSS INCOMPETENCE incompetence STOP Your check will be mailed STOP
Please do not use me for a reference

Respectfully,

Your Most Excellent GODDESS SATURATED SAINT! :pray:


P.S. There is no Goddess but Goddess and She is Your Goddess. :winking0071:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Faith is in its nature unchangeable, stationary; Science is in its nature Progressive; and eventually a divergence between them impossible to conceal, must take place.

The American Public Educational System (Elementary-High School) does not want to upset the "bible-believing" communites they serve. So to keep the peace, the truth is suppressed. The subject is not allowed to be discussed or brought up as to how the Sciences (Astrophysics, Geology, Hydrology, Archaeology, Anthropology and Literary Criticism) have proved the Bible is not the LITERALL word of God, but merely a later recasting of Mesopotamian motifs and concepts regarding the origins of naked primeval man who wanders the Sumerian edin/eden with wild animals for companions, unaware it is wrong to be naked in edin/eden.

Religion to some degree is an expression nd projection of mankind's abhorrence of the "dog-eat-dog" world he lives in and witnesses daily.

Thomas Paine said "if you want to know God don't waste your time studying the Bible which is a spurious book, study Nature and you will know God." (I (I think he was right.)

Darwin "correctly observed" life is about the struggle of the species. There is no right, no wrong, in the animal and plant kingdoms as each organism contends with others to survive and reproduce itself. Millions of life forms are born each day, plant and animal, human, and millions are killed and devoured by other life forms. The living can live only by consuming another living organism. Nature reveals a brutal world without any concept of right or wrong.

Down through the ages caring, reflective men and women have been appalled by this and have sought an escape from this reality by creating a "Fantasy-World" that never existed, a world where man "LIVES IN UTOPIAN PEACE" without fear of his fellow man or wild animals killing and devouring him.

Fundamentalist Christian Intolerance is alive and well in America.

Now you know why for over the past 100 years millions of Christians, Jews and Muslims have no knowledge that Adam and Eve are "fictional characters and recasts of still earlier fictional characters[!!!], Enkidu and Shamhat of "The Epic of Gilgamesh" believed to have been composed circa 2000 B.C., a later copy being found by archaeologists at Ur of the Chaldees in ancient Sumer where Abraham once lived according to the Bible; Shamhat's urging Enkidu to eat the food he initially balked at in the edin being recast as Eve urging Adam to eat forbidden food in Eden.

Genesis' motifs are simply recasts of Mesopotamian beliefs and notions.

That is to say that today Jews, Christians and Moslems are slaughtering and killing each other in the Middle East and elsewhere (Europe, Asia and Africa) over "a recast Sumerian myth about man's creation" by Sumerian gods to work in thier city-gardens located in the midst of the edin. I have often wondered why it is that the world is ignorant of this research published well over 100 years ago.

What a shame that the much of world does not know the truth, that the Genesis story about the Garden of Eden is a myth and a later recast of motifs appearing in a much earlier composition, the Epic of Gilgamesh.

WHAT AN UNJUST BURDEN OF GUILT HAS AFFLICTED MAN, BUT ESPECIALLY WOMAN[!], over the past 4000 years for the believers in the myth of the Garden of Eden: Jew, Christian, and Muslim. What a shame that today Jews, Christians and Moslems are killing each other because of these myths and WHAT A SHAME THAT WOMANKIND HAS BEEN MARGINALIZED AND TYRANNIZED by this Adam and Eve NONSENSE not only in the past but the present as well.

It's depreciation of women's spirituality and exclusion of women from positions of religious authority.

Just think, had the Epic of Gilgamesh never been composed, perhaps the story of Adam and Eve as recasts of Enkidu and Shamhat would never have been composed too. And What a difference this would might have made for the world over the past 4000 years, to be "free" of this NONSENSE.

Man still "loves, cares, displays tenderness, seeks the welfare of others": wife, hearth, home, children, parents, community. Can man survive without "imaginary gods" who supposedly are the source of "knowledge of good and evil" (right and wrong) via divine revelations to pious men and women?

Only time will tell...

To me personally, Christian Fundamantalism is basically paganism badly reworked over with some nasty "FLESH-HATING" Manichaeism mixed and thrown in for good measure. Both of them (Luther and Calvin) placed too much emphasis and pathological-obession on perceptions of dualism, and the body-desires of the flesh and matter-hatred. Absolutely and patholgically-obsessed with the flesh-body, all sexual matters and on specific parts of the body, which is pathological and mentally-ill in my humble opinion.

Haylale
02-22-2014, 04:42 PM
Shalom

I admit to always being confused over 'Venus' and the 'Moon'. Venus the goddess of love and the Moon the goddess of war. I know them both intimately. They are part of a larger group of celestial 'critters' that serve to guide those who walk in their own intellect, i.e. 'fleshly mind'. I always laugh when I hear the statement of "All is fair in love and war", knowing the speaker does not know they speak of the sisters. :winking0071:

Before judgment is processed first one must investigate, question and verify. Authority, real authority, is when one, someone can execute without recourse. People run around and cry 'conspiracy'. Which one of those 'cryers' can actually say "I have conspired"? If you have never done so how can you say you know what you are talking about? I have conspired mightily.

Now that the God of Gods, whose name alone is Yehovah, has caused me to turn I am at a bottleneck in my life. I am neither reproving here nor correcting. Just attempting to get more information in order to proceed. With that said, as someone who actually reads, writes and speaks biblical Hebrew, I would pose some questions, besides the question in the title, to reveal my ignorance of other peoples understanding.

Did you know:

1) In a Catholic Bible, that has commentary notes, they will tell you that 'Rome and the Empire' is Babylon (See Revelation 16:19, their own note)
2) In the Greek New Testament there is no such thing as "first day of the week". The translators add that because Babylon has always had the 'day of the Sun', i.e. 'Sunday', as the Babylonian day of worship. And to those so called 'scholars' the Septuagint, written in 287 BCE, has a word for week in it that is still used today in modern Greek. So no excuse.
3) There is only one word in scripture that is completely defined by scripture, that is love. In 1 Corinthians 13 it starts with 3 disqualifiers then goes into 16 descriptions. 1) a passive/nature 'patience' 2) an active/power 'useful employable kindness' 3) eight 'nots' identifying a selfish disposition and 4) the last six are barometers of how you are doing with the first two. The rest of the chapter speak of the pre-eminence of biblical love. No other word is spoken of as this in scripture
4) Scripture is clear about not receiving the love of the truth. There are thousands of flavors of so called 'Christianity'. Yet the Bible is clear that there is one Spirit of Truth, one way and one process. So if you look at 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 it is 'God' and not satan who sends a strong delusion. I know what I am speaking about here because I used to be the bearer of strong delusions, before Jesus became my lord of course.
5) Same topic here, Hebrews 2:14-15 identify that 'fear' is the tool of the devil. If people are so full of righteous judgment then why don't they go down to the border towns in Mexico and stand against anyone of the Cartels? We can go to Afganistan and Iraq but can't go to our own border? Save the whales, trees and seals but can't save all those woman kidnapped and sold into slavery? Fear comes from somewhere. Why are those cartel heads afraid of me? I am nothing, I can barely pay my bills. Why are some in law enforcement just as scared of me as the cartel heads? Where does that come from? What does my Hebrew name mean anyway? Revelation 2:17 says that nobody knows the new name received from on high except the one who receives it. My Hebrew name is my signature, and to any clown out there who chose their own name, I did not choose mine. My name appears 3 times in the Hebrew Bible.

I apologize if this stultifies your position. Not meant to. I would like your view point on those questions. I am not 'tooting' my own horn. I don't care what people think of me. I don't have much compassion for cowards who claim some kind of internal strength. I do have compassion for those who ask for help. I am not a pleasant person to those who are bullies either. Whether intellectual or physical. I am not attempting to do anything other than what I have said to you on this post. The difference between me and all those others is I know I am not worthy of any mercy God has given me, nor deserve it. I am just trying to seek out the complete disconnect of words and application.

ClaudiaJung
05-11-2020, 11:36 AM
Hi,

I dont think there shouldn't be any question whether god exsist or not. As we all know that god is there and he is saving us from all those dangers which can cause permanent effect on our life. i am not saying that we were not facing any issues, yes we face many issues in our daily life but god know's that those issues are not so much harmful so that we not even come out of it. God is the hope ,the energy without him we can't exsist. The whole mankind is his child. He is always with us to protect ourselves.
So many people thought that if there is god then they become richer, no poison can touch them, there life will be as smooth as a train on its track. But my friend our is game and god as guardian will help only those who are helping themselves. So according to my understanding if there is a God (i.e. if we can see him) nothing gonna change.

ClaudiaJung
05-11-2020, 12:03 PM
If there is a God, and there is a judgment day after death, I think that God will applaud all of those who refused to condone and justify biblical violence, or accept the abuse attributed to God’s name via the Bible. If a God exists, compassion and kindness will be the hallmarks of his/her name, not whether someone praised and worshiped a biblical portrayal of an ill tempered god that demanded to be glorified for atrocious behavior. People who stand up for the equal rights of all humans and used their intellect to help a suffering world will be the ones who are rewarded for a job well done, whether or not they acknowledge the existence of a specific god recorded in the pages of the Bible.

It seems many of the teachings of the Bible focus on the praise, adoration and worship of its god at the expense of empathy, and the priorities of equal human justice. Goodness and respect is lost, replaced with the perverse idea of denying people equality based on their gender. What seems to be forgotten in the minds of those who are steeped in religious dogma, is that the ideals of true morality and compassion are acted out in the lives of countless individuals, who let their actions speak instead of the proclamations of a tribal god. They are the ones who should receive the highest praise and the greatest reward at judgment day whether or not an expression of acknowledgment was given to a particular imaginary god. No true god would ever create life on a foundation of inequality; any such endeavor is doomed to fail which is abundantly clear when we look at the course that history has taken when these biblical practices of injustice have been implemented.


Rose
So what do you think on what basis god judge the mankind? The strong person will always win the race because he has believe with him.