PDA

View Full Version : His Words: Grace or Abyss of Confusion?



ali
04-06-2012, 07:30 AM
Hello! Richard said,

Now here is the fundamental problem: If the Bible really is from God, and God "doesn't beget son, literally or figuratively," then why did God produce a book that emphatically states that Jesus is the only-begotten son of God? Was he just having fun confusing us?

Thank you Richard for your comments. Your fundamental question deserves a separate thread and a fundamental discussion, here is my point of view:

Look at a tree and its blossoms, look at them attentively. Do you see any discrepancy? any fault? Turn your gaze.... look at the moon, look at the stars mindfully. Do you see any disproportion? any imperfection? Turn your gaze again,...and again till your gaze comes back to you tired and dazzled! You won't find any inconsistency, any imperfection, any disproportion in the creations of the merciful. Now I ask you: Why do we think that the word of the same merciful, the same perfect creator, the maker of all this functional consistency could be confusing?? Was not the whole creation started by His words?? and is not the scripture His own words again? (in the form of letters? or have we limited it to?)

You know, by the time that we are grown up enough to read His divine word for ourselves independently, our minds already are in effect fully preoccupied with an ocean of humanism. And to be honest, by that time, its already too late except, God himself, saves us from that abyss. The irony is that we are told that only He, is the uppermost, all-mighty and all-knower, yet His words are the last thing being taught to us:


We open our eyes in the midst of family traditions and dark upbringings of our parents, then one day they give us a school bag and makes us sit in an education system, which is designed based on our ruler's favorite goals and objectives! By the time we become literate to read and write, we find ourselves under the bombardments of story books, novels, poems, musics, radio programs, TV programs, magazines, daily papers, films, internet, then comes high school teachings and all the doctrines they inject us with, you name it: from our version of history that proves us right!...to the belief that humanism and rationality (product of our own uncertain assumptions) is the only way to salvation! Then comes higher education as if they repeat everything over and over to make sure we all have got hypnotized in the abyss of rational nonsense! Afterwards, the best of us, and I'd say it again, the best of us, who would manage to approach the divine word, will approach it with a mind full of already made conclusions and doctrines about life, knowledge and even faith and religion itself!...It is this abyss that darkens our hearts (Heart: a word void of any meaning in school of rationality).

Summary:

We find the word of divine confusing because we live in a "Dialectic" culture. A culture based on philosophy and the power of brain and thought. Today, around the globe, the dialectic ground is our only vehicle of approaching and understanding life grounds. In converse, the culture of divine word is an "Agro-Bio" culture. It does not have any philosophy in it, neither does it work based on the power of thought! But it samples the results of creation for the heart of human-being, so that the heart realizes the message. In effect, human's heart, is THE most complex system ever discovered yet. Its mechanism, its functionality, its language, is only described and "prescribed" in the word of divine (and not in the Hellenistic theosophy of Mr. Rational Nonsense or Aristotle!):


For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Gospel Matt 13:15)

What, have they not journeyed in the land so that they have hearts to understand with or ears to hear with? It is not the eyes that are blind, but blind are the hearts within the chests. (Quran 22:46)

Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day (Torah Deut 29:4)
(sidebar) Three books with the same unique language. Is it not enough to believe that He who has sent them down is the same one?


How to move from a dialectic culture to culture of the divine word? (My prescription :thumb:)


1. Erase all the doctrines you have ever been taught by dialectic philosophy. God is not a philosopher, because he doesn't lie! You name them: Universalism/Global Caliphate/Incarnation/Trinity and more importantly Aristotelian logic! (Basically anything that proclaims philosopher is the all-knower!!).

2. Turn off TV/Radio/film/music, since they play with your eyes and your ears or both, to access your heart. They play with your perception of reality. Turn it off. (as I've done it since 5 years ago). Don't consume other sort of media. Remember: Information is the name, persuasion is the game.

3. In this point you'll suddenly find loads of extra time! and a sense of relief from all these burden of nonsense. But is your heart clean yet? Do you watch your deeds? Do you care for the orphan? Do you care for the homeless? Do you pray purely only for God? (not even calling anybody beside him in your taugh times?)

4.Seek your theological answers in the signs and marks of creation not theology books, church or mosque.



Therefore observe the result of God’s mercy, how He revives the earth after its death; He will indeed resurrect the dead; and He is Able to do all things. (Quran 30:50) (This is the Agro-Bio language. You can find this type of language in the whole Bible as well).

Philosopher's language, in converse, is a dialectic language, based on human made logic and assumptions. But God doesn't talk based on ingenuity, he talks based on the "ultimate reality" that you can see, smell, taste, touch and hear. That's the difference, and that's the key to help us come out of the abyss of confusion. The philosopher's language basically can not approach the word of divine without assuming human-made presumptions. And with presumptions the ground of the divine word gets inevitably distorted. So its the human being who distorts the divine word, not anyone else. We should change our vehicle then!

5. Then unknown things will happen to your heart after doing all these! ...nobody knows what they are, God knows it all only.

6. Now with all things done so far, take some time to study and ponder the words of scripture now with your new heart and with your new eye and with your new ear. Don't ask the dictionary, but ask his words, his signs (including from Torah to Quran) to reveal the truth for you. He will put it in front of you if he wishes to.

Keep all these ongoing for some time..and look back then. What would you see?

With the very bests,
Ali. :thumb:

duxrow
04-06-2012, 09:51 AM
COMMENTARY may be from those who don't understand the original, though they spent much time perusing it, and learning about the Confounded Language (Gen 11:7) which includes poetry, figures of speech, and allegory. The 1,2, 3 order permits the Gospel to learn from the Torah, [Gal 3:24] but NOTHING to endorse Mohammed. The counterfeit is not as worthy as the original.

1. Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day (Torah Deut 29:4)

2. For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Gospel Matt 13:15)

3. What, have they not journeyed in the land so that they have hearts to understand with or ears to hear with? It is not the eyes that are blind, but blind are the hearts within the chests. (Quran 22:46)

The Michigan Koran says it like this:

Surah 22.43 - And the people of Ibrahim and the people of Lut, [Abraham - Lot]
[22.44] As well as those of Madyan and Musa (too) was rejected, but I gave respite to the unbelievers, then did I overtake them, so how (severe) was My disapproval.
[22.45] So how many a town did We destroy while it was unjust, so it was fallen down upon its roofs, and (how many a) deserted well and palace raised high.
[22.46] Have they not travelled in the land so that they should have hearts with which to understand, or ears with which to hear? For surely it is not the eyes that are blind, but blind are the hearts which are in the breasts.
[22.47] And they ask you to hasten on the punishment, and Allah will by no means fail in His promise, and surely a day with your Lord is as a thousand years of what you number. [Ps90 or 2Pet3:8]

..

Rose
04-06-2012, 11:14 AM
Hello! Richard said,


Thank you Richard for your comments. Your fundamental question deserves a separate thread and a fundamental discussion, here is my point of view:

Look at a tree and its blossoms, look at them attentively. Do you see any discrepancy? any fault? Turn your gaze.... look at the moon, look at the stars mindfully. Do you see any disproportion? any imperfection? Turn your gaze again,...and again till your gaze comes back to you tired and dazzled! You won't find any inconsistency, any imperfection, any disproportion in the creations of the merciful. Now I ask you: Why do we think that the word of the same merciful, the same perfect creator, the maker of all this functional consistency could be confusing?? Was not the whole creation started by His words?? and is not the scripture His own words again? (in the form of letters? or have we limited it to?)

Hi Ali, :yo:

If I look around me and see no discrepancy, and see no fault in creation, why would I attribute those things to the God of the Bible which is full of discrepancies and full of fault? Just asking :winking0071:

All the best,
Rose

ali
04-06-2012, 12:45 PM
Hi Ali,

If I look around me and see no discrepancy, and see no fault in creation, why would I attribute those things to the God of the Bible which is full of discrepancies and full of fault? Just asking

Hi Rose :yo:

Because had there been another god beside God who has created the perfect universe and spelled the Bible, they would surely have sought ways of opposition against each other!! :winking0071:

With the very best,
Ali.

Rose
04-06-2012, 01:50 PM
Hi Rose :yo:

Because had there been another god beside God who has created the perfect universe and spelled the Bible, they would surely have sought ways of opposition against each other!! :winking0071:

With the very best,
Ali.

Hi Ali,

Well, that doesn't really answer my question. :confused:

How can you get a perfect universe from a very imperfect book, that portrays a very primitive tribal war god, who is constantly seeking vengeance against the humans he supposedly created? Looks upside down and backwards to me. :p

All the best,
Rose

David M
04-09-2012, 03:06 AM
Hi Ali,

Well, that doesn't really answer my question. :confused:

How can you get a perfect universe from a very imperfect book, that portrays a very primitive tribal war god, who is constantly seeking vengeance against the humans he supposedly created? Looks upside down and backwards to me. :p

All the best,
Rose

Hello again Rose

I have to disagree with your choice of words. It is more a case of the constant rebellion of man, and man constantly corrupting God's people and destroying the earth which is giving God constant cause to take vengeance. If we have seen God taking vengeance on the nations surrounding Israel, (and we know Israel were not entirely without blame), then it was God's right to do so. God gave man warning, and man was told by God what not to do and what God considered offensive to Him. You should admit that man is in the wrong for disobeying God. God was true to His Word and exercised vengeance to help His people and set an example for all to see and learn from.

For centuries, God has not taken vengeance. God is always active and He will steer man's course to bring about His purpose. Those who look for God's hand to be at work behind the politial leaders of the nations can recognize this. Consider all the attrocitites taking place in the world right now and who is to blame? The answer has to be; man. Yet the unbelievers will simply deny God for not intervening to stop human disasters, which man could have prevented. If we fly in aeroplanes, which are man-made machines, we take the risk. We are putting our faith in man-made machines and blaming God when they crash. And so, if God does not intervene in wars and God does not take vengeance for one side or the other, God also gets blamed by man.

If you think God has done terrible things in the past, when He avenged His chosen people and took vengeance on reprobates who were not worth saving and who were dispensible, that will pale into insignificance, when the Day of the Lord comes. God has declared He is going to "destroy those who are destroying the earth". God is even now preparing the nations to do battle in the Middle East around Israel, and when this takes place, the judgement of the nations will take place and there will be death and destruction on a scale we have never witnessed. God only promised not to flood the earth again, He did not promise not to create such great destruction of life by other means; it will happen again. 90% of the earth's population is living on the 'ring of fire' around the pacific rim. People know their homes are at risk of earthquakes and flooding and and yet they choose to do nothing about it. Men turn a blind eye until something happens. It should come as no surprise when God shakes the earth. There is no reason to believe this will not literally happen. Shaking will be manifest in violent earthquakes triggered around the globe. And when this happens, those who survive can attribute the disaster to God, or put it down to natural forces. All these things are coming to a head in which the great day of wrath is coming.

God is in control. He can direct the steps of men in government to bring about His purpose. The forces of nature are at His control and His timing is spot on. Seismologists are predicting a massive erruption, but they cannot tell when, and when it does, either it will be seen as the outpouring of the wrath of God on the world or simply put down to natural causes.

Great changes are ahead and we cannot say we have not been told. God has given us a way of escape. Believers have the assurance they will be saved and can expect to be taken away before the great shaking of the earth takes place. Those who refuse to believe and reject God will not know what has hit them and those who do survive will be in great distress. A new world order is coming and we have been told in advance; it will not be of man's making.

Consider the following quotations; "to me belongeth vengeance and recompense." "I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me." "and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people". "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompense; he will come and save you".

What you think of God will depend on whose side you are. Do you want to be on the receiving end of God's wrath or on the side receiving His protection?

God's vengeance is more than outweighed by the Love of God to them that love and fear Him and believe in Him. Unlike man, who is weighed in the balances and found wanting, if you could weigh God in the balances, His love and his mercy and grace would outweigh by far His vengeance poured out on undeserving people, whose thoughts and actions are indefensible.

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Those who see these calamitous times coming, they are looking upwards towards God to save them. Those who are looking downwards towards the earth will be consumed by it.

Rose, I hope your perception of God can change again and for the better. Look for wisdom and in getting wisdom, get understanding.

David

Rose
04-09-2012, 09:32 AM
Hello again Rose

I have to disagree with your choice of words. It is more a case of the constant rebellion of man, and man constantly corrupting God's people and destroying the earth which is giving God constant cause to take vengeance. If we have seen God taking vengeance on the nations surrounding Israel, (and we know Israel were not entirely without blame), then it was God's right to do so. God gave man warning, and man was told by God what not to do and what God considered offensive to Him. You should admit that man is in the wrong for disobeying God. God was true to His Word and exercised vengeance to help His people and set an example for all to see and learn from.
Hi David, :yo:

Actually, quite the opposite. I think it is good for man to disobey the god of the Bible, especially when he tells his people to go and slaughter the women and children and rape the virgins! Yahweh has set a horrible example for mankind in the Bible and it's time people open their eyes to the immorality it contains.



If you think God has done terrible things in the past, when He avenged His chosen people and took vengeance on reprobates who were not worth saving and who were dispensable, that will pale into insignificance, when the Day of the Lord comes. God has declared He is going to "destroy those who are destroying the earth". God is even now preparing the nations to do battle in the Middle East around Israel, and when this takes place, the judgement of the nations will take place and there will be death and destruction on a scale we have never witnessed. God only promised not to flood the earth again, He did not promise not to create such great destruction of life by other means; it will happen again. 90% of the earth's population is living on the 'ring of fire' around the pacific rim. People know their homes are at risk of earthquakes and flooding and and yet they choose to do nothing about it. Men turn a blind eye until something happens. It should come as no surprise when God shakes the earth. There is no reason to believe this will not literally happen. Shaking will be manifest in violent earthquakes triggered around the globe. And when this happens, those who survive can attribute the disaster to God, or put it down to natural forces. All these things are coming to a head in which the great day of wrath is coming.

God is in control. He can direct the steps of men in government to bring about His purpose. The forces of nature are at His control and His timing is spot on. Seismologists are predicting a massive erruption, but they cannot tell when, and when it does, either it will be seen as the outpouring of the wrath of God on the world or simply put down to natural causes.

Wow! Those are some pretty harsh words! Sounds to me like the Bible has really hardened your heart, to be able to speak of all the innocent people that were killed by Yahweh as being "reprobates" and "dispensable". I am stunned :eek:


Great changes are ahead and we cannot say we have not been told. God has given us a way of escape. Believers have the assurance they will be saved and can expect to be taken away before the great shaking of the earth takes place. Those who refuse to believe and reject God will not know what has hit them and those who do survive will be in great distress. A new world order is coming and we have been told in advance; it will not be of man's making.

Consider the following quotations; "to me belongeth vengeance and recompense." "I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me." "and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people". "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompense; he will come and save you".

What you think of God will depend on whose side you are. Do you want to be on the receiving end of God's wrath or on the side receiving His protection?

God's vengeance is more than outweighed by the Love of God to them that love and fear Him and believe in Him. Unlike man, who is weighed in the balances and found wanting, if you could weigh God in the balances, His love and his mercy and grace would outweigh by far His vengeance poured out on undeserving people, whose thoughts and actions are indefensible.

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Those who see these calamitous times coming, they are looking upwards towards God to save them. Those who are looking downwards towards the earth will be consumed by it.

Rose, I hope your perception of God can change again and for the better. Look for wisdom and in getting wisdom, get understanding.

David

VENGEANCE, Vengeance, vengeance, that's all I hear from Yahweh...and what is the reason for all this vengeance that I read about in the Bible, well it's because people didn't worship him the way he wanted them to! Wow! Talk about a BIG ego.:lol: What kind of an example is that? It's like a parent killing their children because they don't worship them enough.

How can my perception of Yahweh ever change when his character is un-changeably written in the pages of the Bible?


All the best,
Rose

CWH
04-09-2012, 01:01 PM
Hi David, :yo:

Actually, quite the opposite. I think it is good for man to disobey the god of the Bible, especially when he tells his people to go and slaughter the women and children and rape the virgins! Yahweh has set a horrible example for mankind in the Bible and it's time people open their eyes to the immorality it contains.



Wow! Those are some pretty harsh words! Sounds to me like the Bible has really hardened your heart, to be able to speak of all the innocent people that were killed by Yahweh as being "reprobates" and "dispensable". I am stunned :eek:



VENGEANCE, Vengeance, vengeance, that's all I hear from Yahweh...and what is the reason for all this vengeance that I read about in the Bible, well it's because people didn't worship him the way he wanted them to! Wow! Talk about a BIG ego.:lol: What kind of an example is that? It's like a parent killing their children because they don't worship them enough.

How can my perception of Yahweh ever change when his character is un-changeably written in the pages of the Bible?


All the best,
Rose

On the same note, I would say that we disobey humans because humans has been killing humans, children, women, animals and every horrible things for millions of years! Let's open our eyes :eek: to human immorality and horrors that has been continuing for million of years till today. All evils were created by humans and let's look forward to the time when Someone will come and destroy all evils and make this place a much better place to live in.

In Jesus Name. :pray:

Rose
04-09-2012, 05:34 PM
On the same note, I would say that we disobey humans because humans has been killing humans, children, women, animals and every horrible things for millions of years! Let's open our eyes :eek: to human immorality and horrors that has been continuing for million of years till today. All evils were created by humans and let's look forward to the time when Someone will come and destroy all evils and make this place a much better place to live in.

In Jesus Name. :pray:

You are exactly right! All evils were created by humans, just like all good also comes from humans, so it's going to be humans that have to figure out how to get along and treat each other equally. The Bible only complicates things by creating a god who treats people unequally, unfairly and unjustly!

Rose

ali
04-10-2012, 04:45 AM
You are exactly right! All evils were created by humans, just like all good also comes from humans, so it's going to be humans that have to figure out how to get along and treat each other equally. The Bible only complicates things by creating a god who treats people unequally, unfairly and unjustly!

Rose

How can human being distinguish evil from good without a manual? God is the only all-knower, thus only His words can be THE manual. If any human prescribes/proposes a manual for himself or others, he/she will end up claiming to be that all-knower, his/her own God !! and this is a contradiction! :)

Ali.

David M
04-10-2012, 06:19 AM
Hi David, :yo:
Wow! Those are some pretty harsh words! Sounds to me like the Bible has really hardened your heart, to be able to speak of all the innocent people that were killed by Yahweh as being "reprobates" and "dispensable". I am stunned :eek:

Hello Rose
I am not hard-hearted, and I am not delusioned. Be careful, Ricard is banning delusional peoplefromthe forum. It is delusion if you think man will change his ways without God's intervention. God will intervene and put things right by sending His Son back to the earth to set up God's kingdom, but are you giving yourself a chance to experience the change that will come under Christs rule? I would reserve judgement till you see what God does and and if women don't have the equal rights at the end of the millennium, I might campaign with you, but that will not be necessary



VENGEANCE, Vengeance, vengeance, that's all I hear from Yahweh...and what is the reason for all this vengeance that I read about in the Bible, well it's because people didn't worship him the way he wanted them to! Wow! Talk about a BIG ego.:lol: What kind of an example is that? It's like a parent killing their children because they don't worship them enough.
Stop reading about vengeance, the Bible has a lot of good news to read about. Instead of reading about the bad stuff,concentrat your mind on all the positive things.


How can my perception of Yahweh ever change when his character is un-changeably written in the pages of the Bible? Your perception of God will only change when you stop repeating you bad assertions and focus on the promises of God and all the good He has done. It is good that God is unchangeable, or else I could not trust Him. I have tried to make you see as with the example of Rahab, God provides a way of salvation for the faithful. I cannot agree with you defending the indefensible. You think people can go on doing what they are doing and everything will turn out for the good. In the last 6,000 years the evil side of man's nature has not diminished. It was extremely bad pre Flood, and it is getting that way again. Instead of only 8 souls being saved, we can say that God will save many more souls in the next great shakeup the world will experience.

You appear to me to have hardened your heart towards be God. God is not hardening your heart, it is of your own making. With a hardened heart, you have become inflexible to seeing the good and getting the attrocities into their correct perspective. I would not expect your solution to solving the world's problems and to rid the world of evi,l to stand any chance.The danger is that unless God intervenes soon, we might not have a planet long enough for your any solution to work. God has the solution and He will send Jesus back.

All the best,
David

Richard Amiel McGough
04-10-2012, 10:47 AM
How can human being distinguish evil from good without a manual? God is the only all-knower, thus only His words can be THE manual. If any human prescribes/proposes a manual for himself or others, he/she will end up claiming to be that all-knower, his/her own God !! and this is a contradiction! :)

Ali.
I don't think that makes sense. When anyone "reads the Manual" they are interpreting it according to their own understanding and JUDGING what it says according to their own moral standards which are based on their own moral intutions. This should be pretty obvious because everyone who "reads the Manual" interprets it differently. Case in point - you interpretation is radically different than almost all other people who have ever read the book.

It is a logical fallacy to claim that you must be the "all knower" to make any moral judgments. You make moral judgments all day long, and you are not the "all knower."

Your assertion that "God is the only all-knower" and that the Bible is his "manual" has no foundation in fact. That is merely an assertion that you make, and in doing so you have set yourself up as the ultimate judge who "knows" something that is in fact quite false. The Bible cannot be the infallible and inerrant Word of God because it cantains errors, contradictions, and moral abominations attributed to God. Now if you go about trying to "fix it" and "explain away" all its problems, you will be setting yourself up as judge and interpretor of the Bible, and that means that the Bible is not "guiding" you at all. You are merely using your own intellect and moral intuitions as the ultimate guide when you use them to "fix" the Bible.

Rose
04-10-2012, 09:52 PM
Hello Rose

Stop reading about vengeance, the Bible has a lot of good news to read about. Instead of reading about the bad stuff,concentrate your mind on all the positive things.

Hi David, :yo:

So, are you saying I should ignore all the atrocities that God ordained in the Bible and instead focus on the positive things? Well, to me that seems like willful blindness which is sort of what I did for all the years I considered myself a Christian.


Your perception of God will only change when you stop repeating you bad assertions and focus on the promises of God and all the good He has done. It is good that God is unchangeable, or else I could not trust Him. I have tried to make you see as with the example of Rahab, God provides a way of salvation for the faithful. I cannot agree with you defending the indefensible. You think people can go on doing what they are doing and everything will turn out for the good. In the last 6,000 years the evil side of man's nature has not diminished. It was extremely bad pre Flood, and it is getting that way again. Instead of only 8 souls being saved, we can say that God will save many more souls in the next great shakeup the world will experience.

Quite the opposite it true! God constantly changes his mind throughout the Old and New Testaments.


You appear to me to have hardened your heart towards be God. God is not hardening your heart, it is of your own making. With a hardened heart, you have become inflexible to seeing the good and getting the attrocities into their correct perspective. I would not expect your solution to solving the world's problems and to rid the world of evi,l to stand any chance.The danger is that unless God intervenes soon, we might not have a planet long enough for your any solution to work. God has the solution and He will send Jesus back.

All the best,
David

My heart is not hardening, but rather it is growing more compassionate, and empathic all the time. The Bible teaches people to harden their hearts, because they must accept all the immoralities it contains as somehow being just.

All the best,
Rose

CWH
04-10-2012, 10:02 PM
Hi David, :yo:
So, are you saying I should ignore all the atrocities that God ordained in the Bible and instead focus on the positive things? Well, to me that seems like willful blindness which is sort of what I did for all the years I considered myself a Christian.

Quite the opposite it true! God constantly changes his mind throughout the Old and New Testaments.

My heart is not hardening, but rather it is growing more compassionate, and empathic all the time. The Bible teaches people to harden their hearts, because they must accept all the immoralities it contains as somehow being just.

All the best,
Rose

Tell me all the compassionate and emphatic things that you do or think and I can tell you that many of the things that you think are compassionate are in fact uncompassionate. Give it a try!

God Blessed. :pray:

ali
04-11-2012, 12:47 AM
Thank you for your comments Richard,


I don't think that makes sense. When anyone "reads the Manual" they are interpreting it according to their own understanding and JUDGING what it says according to their own moral standards which are based on their own moral intutions. This should be pretty obvious because everyone who "reads the Manual" interprets it differently. Case in point - you interpretation is radically different than almost all other people who have ever read the book.

Absolutely agree! This is how God wanted it to be: whoever comes cleaner in heart, will be qualified to get more polished understandings of the manual. So It depends on the reader's "heart", that's why interpretations differ from one heart to another. If we approach His words with heart pre-occupied, we will get less and less, in some point nothing at all. If we clean all pre-occupations, I call them dirt, and let His words, I call it light, shape the axioms in our heart, then the matter will change drastically. I said it before: clean your heart from any humanism, any doctrine, any definition of self, God, religion etc, and then approach the word of God. Let the word of God shape your understandings and you will witness your structure of understanding will change forever in respect to your previous system that was built on humanism and rationality grounds.


It is a logical fallacy to claim that you must be the "all knower" to make any moral judgments. You make moral judgments all day long, and you are not the "all knower."

I never claimed to be the all-knower eye. Did I? I said we must approach with clean heart, that's all I have said so far.


Your assertion that "God is the only all-knower" and that the Bible is his "manual" has no foundation in fact. That is merely an assertion that you make, and in doing so you have set yourself up as the ultimate judge who "knows" something that is in fact quite false. The Bible cannot be the infallible and inerrant Word of God because it cantains errors, contradictions, and moral abominations attributed to God. Now if you go about trying to "fix it" and "explain away" all its problems, you will be setting yourself up as judge and interpretor of the Bible, and that means that the Bible is not "guiding" you at all. You are merely using your own intellect and moral intuitions as the ultimate guide when you use them to "fix" the Bible.

I never said Bible should be fixed ! I said "our perception of Bible", "the engine that interprets the bible" (our hearts) should get a fix ! That's a whole different point. His words will not need anyone (either me or you) for any fixation. I provided some practical ways that even have scientific grounds as well:
1-Put the media away from your life (has scientific grounds). 2-Watch your deeds and match it up as much as you can according to His words. 3- Repent and ask him and be patient until "your heart gets fixed" with His words. This is his unique way and this is indeed a simple way.

Richard,
I have noticed that you are repeating this ground over and over that Bible contains errors and contradictions. But I have not seen any proof? Do you have any article published regarding this matter, numbering these contradictions? I'd be glad to take a look at your cases and if you don't mind provide my counter arguments later for that.

Thanks.
Ali.

David M
04-11-2012, 01:22 AM
Hello Rose


Hi David, :yo:

So, are you saying I should ignore all the atrocities that God ordained in the Bible and instead focus on the positive things? Well, to me that seems like willful blindness which is sort of what I did for all the years I considered myself a Christian.
It is willful blindness on your part that you are not looking at the compassionate side of God and all the good things He has promised and has done. I think (in my humble opinion) that when you say you were a Christian, you have not had the Truth within you. You were one of the many so-called Christians who do not know who the true God of the Bible is or who the true Jesus of the Bible is. Deny this all you want, the facts as I read them say to me; you have not.

Why do you think God has put on record these terrible events of wars and killings? Why would God put on record events to show himself as an unjust God, when God has declared that He is just? These events have been recorded for our learning, but you fail to understand the underlying message. Instead, it appears you have rejected God altogether and you have aligned yourself with reprobates, who have also rejected God and your spiritual ears are deaf. You are dead in your thoughts towards God, and as Jesus said; "Let the dead bury the dead"If it were not for the fact that in your message (which needs balancing) there is the danger of perverting young minds, I would not be wasting my time corresponding with a reprobate who is already dead. I can see why God gives up with reprobates; yet God is far more patient than I am. I will try to be more patient and continue so that you might reason again and change your mind again. I just wish you had not given me reason to have these thoughts about you. Please give me good reasons not to come to this conclusion.

You can be as sympathetic as you like to reprobates, but it will not get you anywhere with God; only brownie points with your fellow reprobates. In another post yesterday, I quoted the verse which says; (Heb 11:6)"he (God) is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" and this has been in my mind overnight. Are you trying to understand why God has recorded these terrible events of wars and killings? Are you scratching below the veneer on the surface and find meaning to the face value of the words in order to get to the the real cause of why these terrible events happened? If you are doing this, then I see this as commendable and you are still seeking God. There is much I do not understand in the Bible. I have lots more to find out, and therefore, I am still seeking God and learning from Him every day.

God has given us examples of where He has saved those who believed in Him. God knows who are His. This is what I believe and I leave it to God to save those who He knows are His. Jonah did want to preach to Ninevah; afterwards, God said to Jonah; [COLOR="#0000FF"]should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; It has to make one wonder about those cities like Sodom and Gomorrah which God did not spare, if He spared Ninevah. Ninevah, received the message Jonah delivered to them and they repented. Rose, repent again; there is time.

God knows the intent of all hearts, and so I leave all judgement to God. I am not righteous enough to be able to judge others. I am unable to judge you, my judgement is imperfect, and I can only state as I find, and I accept that my findings might not be true. I am of the opinion you are not seeking God, and you are finding every reason possible to reject Him.

"For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:" (Prov 23:7) (). I am saying, concentrate on the positive aspects of God for a while. Feed the mind with the good things about God. Don't keep feeding on the terrible events which you are not seeing in the proper context, and especially if you are not studying these things to find out how God is exercising justice in what He does. If you are unable to understand why, it would be better to focus your mind on the good things and stay connected to God. Only by concentrating on the negatives you have built up in your mind, you become trapped in those negative thoughts. To my mind, they are devilish thoughts to be resisted. "Resist the devil and he will flee from you". . The devil is in your own thoughts and if you constantly harbour devilish thoughts, I cannot see how you will not become what you think. God is offering you the ultimate gift of eternal life. Is not this something worth considering? Is God bad for giving people eternal life? Let God be the judge of others and let us concentrate on getting our own lives in order.

I connect with Paul who writes; (Rom 7:24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Oh Rose, I wish you could thank God instead of rejecting Him.


Quite the opposite it true! God constantly changes his mind throughout the Old and New Testaments.
It is good that God does change His mind and spares people; don't you see the good in that? Its called mercy and we should be thankful to God for His mercy toward us, and that we do not always receive our just rewards. Our just reward for sin is death and yet God is offering eternal life for just believing in Him and in His only begotten Son. A small price to pay for eternal life.


My heart is not hardening, but rather it is growing more compassionate, and empathic all the time. The Bible teaches people to harden their hearts, because they must accept all the immoralities it contains as somehow being just.
Sorry Rose, but from what I read, you have already hardened your heart towards God. If someone else (besides Richard) can tell me you have not, then I might stand corrected. You are being compassionate towards reprobates. You are defending the indefensible. If people go to their graves rejecting God, why should God raise them to etenal life to continue to live for ever in His kingdom and allow them to carry on rejecting Him? This makes no sense at all, and that is why it will not happen. If you do not believe in life after death, OK; I say this to all those who believe in Universal Salvation; it is not what God tells us.
"Life is time to serve the Lord". "Seek the Lord while he can be found" It is too late when you are dead.

The following is only my thought (no biblical evidence to support this); it could be that all our names are written in the Book of Life from the time we are born. By name, I think of this as our spirit; the "spirit of man". As Jesus said when about to die; "into thy hands I commend my spirit" It is this spirit which God reconnects with the body (immortal body at resurrection). I do not know how, I simply believe what God has promised. If we consider that all our names are written in the Book of Life, we do not have to worry about our names not being entered. Instead, we have to worry about our names being blotted out of the book. At the time of judgement when Christ opens up the Book of Life, will our names be written there? I do not want anyone to blot out their name by rejecting God, especially when God is offering eternal life to those who believe in Him. This is the positive aspect to God that we should keep in the forefront of our mind. God has provided the way for us all to be saved and it is up to us to accept or reject His gift.

In the words of Paul to the Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren (includes women), whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

May the God of peace, fill our hearts with understanding.


David

Rose
04-11-2012, 10:01 AM
Hello Rose


It is willful blindness on your part that you are not looking at the compassionate side of God and all the good things He has promised and has done. I think (in my humble opinion) that when you say you were a Christian, you have not had the Truth within you. You were one of the many so-called Christians who do not know who the true God of the Bible is or who the true Jesus of the Bible is. Deny this all you want, the facts as I read them say to me; you have not.
Hello David, :yo:
I'm not even going to bother getting into a discussion about something that you have no clue about. I don't need to defend myself about whether or not you think I was a Christian, or whether you think I had the "Truth" in me.


Why do you think God has put on record these terrible events of wars and killings? Why would God put on record events to show himself as an unjust God, when God has declared that He is just? These events have been recorded for our learning, but you fail to understand the underlying message. Instead, it appears you have rejected God altogether and you have aligned yourself with reprobates, who have also rejected God and your spiritual ears are deaf. You are dead in your thoughts towards God, and as Jesus said; "Let the dead bury the dead"If it were not for the fact that in your message (which needs balancing) there is the danger of perverting young minds, I would not be wasting my time corresponding with a reprobate who is already dead. I can see why God gives up with reprobates; yet God is far more patient than I am. I will try to be more patient and continue so that you might reason again and change your mind again. I just wish you had not given me reason to have these thoughts about you. Please give me good reasons not to come to this conclusion.

The reason the Bible contains all the immoralities, atrocities and killings, is because the Bronze Age men who wrote the Bible thought that was what a god was suppose to be like. There is no need for me to condemn god because he doesn't exist, that is my whole premise of the male-bias of the Bible, to show that the Bible was written by Bronze Age men who created a god in their own image.


You can be as sympathetic as you like to reprobates, but it will not get you anywhere with God; only brownie points with your fellow reprobates. In another post yesterday, I quoted the verse which says; (Heb 11:6)"he (God) is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" and this has been in my mind overnight. Are you trying to understand why God has recorded these terrible events of wars and killings? Are you scratching below the veneer on the surface and find meaning to the face value of the words in order to get to the the real cause of why these terrible events happened? If you are doing this, then I see this as commendable and you are still seeking God. There is much I do not understand in the Bible. I have lots more to find out, and therefore, I am still seeking God and learning from Him every day.

The people you call reprobates are those who don't believe in your tribal war god, that is what I mean about the Bible causing people like you to harden their hearts. You seem to think it was just fine for Yahweh to slaughter all the men women and children merely because they didn't worship him! How hard is that?


God has given us examples of where He has saved those who believed in Him. God knows who are His. This is what I believe and I leave it to God to save those who He knows are His. Jonah did want to preach to Ninevah; afterwards, God said to Jonah; [COLOR=#0000FF]should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; It has to make one wonder about those cities like Sodom and Gomorrah which God did not spare, if He spared Ninevah. Ninevah, received the message Jonah delivered to them and they repented. Rose, repent again; there is time.

God knows the intent of all hearts, and so I leave all judgement to God. I am not righteous enough to be able to judge others. I am unable to judge you, my judgement is imperfect, and I can only state as I find, and I accept that my findings might not be true. I am of the opinion you are not seeking God, and you are finding every reason possible to reject Him.
What do you mean? You have already judged me! You say I was not never a Christian, and never had the "Truth" in my heart.




Sorry Rose, but from what I read, you have already hardened your heart towards God. If someone else (besides Richard) can tell me you have not, then I might stand corrected. You are being compassionate towards reprobates. You are defending the indefensible. If people go to their graves rejecting God, why should God raise them to etenal life to continue to live for ever in His kingdom and allow them to carry on rejecting Him? This makes no sense at all, and that is why it will not happen. If you do not believe in life after death, OK; I say this to all those who believe in Universal Salvation; it is not what God tells us.
"Life is time to serve the Lord". "Seek the Lord while he can be found" It is too late when you are dead.


May the God of peace, fill our hearts with understanding.


David

Of coarse I am being compassionate towards those you call reprobates, because I know the only reason people are labeled reprobates is because they don't believe in and worship the god of the Bible.

All the best,
Rose

Rose
04-11-2012, 10:03 AM
Tell me all the compassionate and emphatic things that you do or think and I can tell you that many of the things that you think are compassionate are in fact uncompassionate. Give it a try!

God Blessed. :pray:

Sorry Cheow, I'm not going to fall into your trap. I'm far to compassionate for that. :D

Rose

CWH
04-11-2012, 10:54 AM
Sorry Cheow, I'm not going to fall into your trap. I'm far to compassionate for that. :D

Rose

Trap? What trap? You think I am here to trap people? I am here to learn and reason. Isn't your motto, "Come, Let us reason together"? On the contrary, I feel that you are closed to reasoning.

These are some of the questions I am thinking of:
Examples of compassion that is uncompassionate:
1. You think it is compassionate not to kill Osama or Hitler?
2. You think saving infants is always good? Then why all the legal abortions?
3. You think all inequalities between male and female is always entirely bad?
4. Is it compassionate not to punish wrongdoers even for minor crimes?

God Blessed.:pray: