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Lotus Feet
03-30-2012, 02:15 PM
Obama state department refuses to acknowledge that Jerusalem is the capitol of Israel.
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/03/29/Obama-State-Dept-Refuses-To-Acknowledge-Jerusalem-As-Capital-Of-Israel

USA in big trouble now.

Who do Americans think they are telling another sovereign nation what is and isn't their nations capitol?

The Liberal Democrats are really asking for it now and Obama will not like the outcome.

TheForgiven
04-14-2012, 03:11 PM
Not to make light of this, but does it really matter to the US if Jerusalem is the capital of secular Israel? While secular Israel has significant historical attraction to Americans, it is not really worth the financial cost of supporting them. Not that I'm anti-Israeli from a political point of view, but they have no real reason for us to be concerned over. At the same time, I know that American zionists, being confused, hold secular Israel in high esteem. But if they understood correctly that the Israel God loves is His Church, then secular Israel would not be as important to them (American Zionists) as the are.

Joseph

David M
04-14-2012, 06:30 PM
Not to make light of this, but does it really matter to the US if Jerusalem is the capital of secular Israel? While secular Israel has significant historical attraction to Americans, it is not really worth the financial cost of supporting them. Not that I'm anti-Israeli from a political point of view, but they have no real reason for us to be concerned over. At the same time, I know that American zionists, being confused, hold secular Israel in high esteem. But if they understood correctly that the Israel God loves is His Church, then secular Israel would not be as important to them (American Zionists) as the are.

Joseph

Hello Joseph
I notice that Lotus Feet started this thread. I do not know why she got banned. I was just beginning to appreciate posts like this.

Physical Israel has a very important part to play on the world stage. Prophecy was not concluded in AD 70. Why do you thing the nation of Israel was established in 1948 if not in fulfillment of prophecy. What takes place in the Middle East and around Israel is extremel important. Jerusalem is where Jesus will reign from when he returns. The land of Israel is Abraham's inheritance which he has not received, but will in the time to come. All nations will be gathered around Israel when God pours out his wrath on the nations. There is a lot of prophecy to be fulfilled and Israel is important.

Israel to this day do not recognize Christ and one day they will. These are events that have still to happen.

By the way, we do not always realize this, but depending on how other nations treat Israel, so God causes blessings and cursings on those nations. Countries that help Israel receive blessings and those that oppose Israel receive curses. It was pointed out to me some time ago, that Obama's policy was not favourable towards Israel and he was later to change the policy. While his policy was against Israel, there were a number of disasters in America. This might be regarded as coincidence but God is true to his word (always).
When God made the promise to Abraham, he said; And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: I think you will find that has been true throughout history. Its a warning to be careful about what we wish to happen to Israel.

David

Richard Amiel McGough
04-15-2012, 10:51 AM
I notice that Lotus Feet started this thread. I do not know why she got banned. I was just beginning to appreciate posts like this.

I banned her because she is utterly delusional and writes as if she were speaking directly for God. She claimed to be the "Queen of the South" who has "more wisdom than Solomon." She claims to sit on the "Mercy Seat" which is God's throne. She claimed that many Bible prophecies were about her revealing God's truth in this present "timeline." After trying to reason with her, I found out she was just using this forum to spew her rank insanity, and I didn't think that would be good for the forum or for her to let her continue.



Physical Israel has a very important part to play on the world stage. Prophecy was not concluded in AD 70. Why do you thing the nation of Israel was established in 1948 if not in fulfillment of prophecy. What takes place in the Middle East and around Israel is extremel important. Jerusalem is where Jesus will reign from when he returns. The land of Israel is Abraham's inheritance which he has not received, but will in the time to come. All nations will be gathered around Israel when God pours out his wrath on the nations. There is a lot of prophecy to be fulfilled and Israel is important.

The secular nation called "Israel" has no continuity with the Israel of the Bible. There are no prophecies that said it would be restored in 1948 or anytime after the judgment came down in 70 AD. The idea that there is a "very important" role for carnal Israel contradicts the entire New Testament which shows that the Temple and Israel were types of Christ and the church. Paul explicitly stated that the church fulfilled the prophecies in Ezekiel and elsewhere that said God would walk in his people. He said that Christians were the CIRCUMCISION which is the technical biblical term for the people in covenant with God. The Old Covenant has passed away.

The prophecies Christ gave in the Olivet Discourse were centered on the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. There is no way to say those prophecies are future without shredding the text into meaningless fragments. Many Futurists have come here and tried, and they always failed.



Israel to this day do not recognize Christ and one day they will. These are events that have still to happen.

All the first Christians were Israelites. They were the faithful remnant that recognized Christ when he came. There is no prediction that all physical descendents of Abraham would believe someday. All believers are called "sons of Abraham" and all unbelievers are called "sons of the flesh." Christ himself explicitly denied that the unbelieving Jews were "sons of Abraham" even though they could trace their physical ancestory to him.

Your doctrines are entirely unbiblical.


By the way, we do not always realize this, but depending on how other nations treat Israel, so God causes blessings and cursings on those nations. Countries that help Israel receive blessings and those that oppose Israel receive curses. It was pointed out to me some time ago, that Obama's policy was not favourable towards Israel and he was later to change the policy. While his policy was against Israel, there were a number of disasters in America. This might be regarded as coincidence but God is true to his word (always).
When God made the promise to Abraham, he said; And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: I think you will find that has been true throughout history. Its a warning to be careful about what we wish to happen to Israel.

David
That's ridiculous. Look at Iran. God has blessed them with vast oil and wealth.

The attempt to correlate disasters with presidential policies is absurd.

David M
04-16-2012, 04:23 AM
The attempt to correlate disasters with presidential policies is absurd.
I am pointing out that these things might not be coincidental. I would not stake my salvation on this claim.

What do you understand by the saying; "I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee" Why should God stop continuing with that promise.

You have closed off your mind after AD70. I have not seen what you have replied to the post we were talking of the big picture. There is a future beyond AD 70 that I am not sure what you believe is going to happen to this earth in say the next 10 to 1000 years. Why has God established the nation of Israel if not to be His witnesses? I have never said the Bible forecast 1948 as the date predicted. The undeniable fact is that by a miracle, the Jews have survived and God has established them as a nation. There are now many unfulfilled prophecies and the fact that you have shut your mind to anything after AD 70 is your failing.
Get Jude 5 - 11 correctly analysed and then we might start a proper reasoning after we break down the myths that have corrupted your thinking.

The fact that no futurist has "won" is your boast. I do not give myself labels. I might be futurist, but that does not mean I believe the same as all futurists. If the Futurists have given up with you, I can understand why. It does not mean the futurist arguments are wrong. They are more likely to be correct for not having drawn a line at AD70. You have nowhere to go it would it seem. Let's hope that one day you will free yourself from the cobweb of lies you have surrounded yourself with in which you claim to be free. You are trapped in your thinking as much as anyone else is.

On to more meaningful discussions.


David

Brother Les
04-17-2012, 10:38 AM
David M
What do you understand by the saying;
"I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee"
Why should God stop continuing with that promise

This Abrahamic promise was made to Abraham..... no one else. This promise was not given to his heirs but to him. Abraham was declare rightious by his Faith. Modern Carnal 'Israel' does not fall under this classification. Carnal Israel could never come into The Land in unbelief. Abraham also knew that 'the land' that he was walking on was not his land, it belonged to God and Abraham was only passing through to a better land, Beulah Land.



Why has God established the nation of Israel if not to be His witnesses?

A witnesses for what? How to establish a blood thirsty carnal aparthide nation? Israeli humanism is not a witness of God, but of Babylon.



You are trapped in your thinking as much as anyone else is.

You over look the fact that the Bible was not written to you, it was written to 'them'..... them of the first century generation. It was to them that the end of the Ages had come. It was the first century general that saw The Death and Sheol thrown in the Lake of Fire. The 'Time of The End' was their time period, not ours or our future. It was The End of The Mosaic Age.... not an ending of some age to come. Do you call it the 'church age' or the 'christian age'. The New Covenant Age has no end. Ram is not a 'christian' and he even understands that 'the bible' was written to and for another people and another age. We have the bible now for our learning and understanding..... so learn and understand....

Richard Amiel McGough
04-17-2012, 11:31 AM
I am pointing out that these things might not be coincidental. I would not stake my salvation on this claim.

And I am pointing out that the events are entirely "coincidental" and I gave proof of the falsehood of your premise by noting that God has greatly blessed the Islamic countries that have attacked Israel.



What do you understand by the saying; "I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee" Why should God stop continuing with that promise.

He was talking to Abraham. He's been long dead. And Israel as a nation died in 70 AD. The folks now calling themselves Jews are a mixed race. They've been interbreeding with Gentiles for thousands of years.

You seem to think that God defines Jews by carnal descent from Abraham. If so, then you have failed to understand the most basic teaching of the NT, which is that BELIEVERS are the only ones counted as the "seed of Abraham." Scripture explicitly states that Abraham is "the father of all them that believe" (Romans 4:11). He is not the "father" of unbelievers, even if they are children of his flesh. This is explicitly taught over and over again in the NT:

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

The term "circumcision" is the technical biblical definition of "Israel." The remnant of the true believing Israel became the Church.



You have closed off your mind after AD70. I have not seen what you have replied to the post we were talking of the big picture. There is a future beyond AD 70 that I am not sure what you believe is going to happen to this earth in say the next 10 to 1000 years. Why has God established the nation of Israel if not to be His witnesses? I have never said the Bible forecast 1948 as the date predicted. The undeniable fact is that by a miracle, the Jews have survived and God has established them as a nation. There are now many unfulfilled prophecies and the fact that you have shut your mind to anything after AD 70 is your failing.

I have not shut off my mind in any way at all. I came to the conclusion that the prophecies were fulfilled in 70 AD because that's the only way for a believer to make sense of what the Bible plainly states. It's either that, or the prophecies failed (which as an unbeliever seems to be more likely). The Futurist attempt to shred Scripture to create their speculative and false eschatology makes a mockery of the Bible.

Who says that "God established" the modern secular state of Israel? Why should we believe that? They still hate God according to the Christian dogma that states anyone who hates Christ hates God. How do those unbelievers serve as a "witness" for God?

It is not an "undeniable fact" that the survival of Jews is a miracle though I will grant that there is good enough reasons for BELIEVERS to BELIEVE that. But note ... we're talking about "belief" here and that's totally different than "fact."



Get Jude 5 - 11 correctly analysed and then we might start a proper reasoning after we break down the myths that have corrupted your thinking.

Dude - you have no foundation for such an absurd assertion. You have been interpreting a man-made translation using man-made dictionaries and thinking that you are interpreting "God's Word." You are willfully ignorant of all the historical information that is required to properly understand the Bible which was written thousands of years ago in languages that you don't even know. You don't even realize that you are depend critically upon the judgments of men who translated it and who put together the dictionaries and lexicons. The Bible is filled with unexplained references to aspects of the Ancient Near East culture of which you know nothing if you don't read books and inform yourself. But you think your are only "interpreting God's Word." What rubbish!



The fact that no futurist has "won" is your boast. I do not give myself labels. I might be futurist, but that does not mean I believe the same as all futurists. If the Futurists have given up with you, I can understand why. It does not mean the futurist arguments are wrong. They are more likely to be correct for not having drawn a line at AD70. You have nowhere to go it would it seem. Let's hope that one day you will free yourself from the cobweb of lies you have surrounded yourself with in which you claim to be free. You are trapped in your thinking as much as anyone else is.

Ha! If there were such a "cobweb of lies" then why can't you show even one? :lmbo:

I've exposed many or the errors that have trapped your mind.

It's a lot easier to proclaim victory than to prove it. I dare you to expose my "cobweb of lies." I doubt you will even try because you know that you are just spewing empty rhetoric because you have been unable to support your dogmas with logic and facts.

David M
04-17-2012, 10:26 PM
This Abrahamic promise was made to Abraham..... no one else. This promise was not given to his heirs but to him. Abraham was declare rightious by his Faith. Modern Carnal 'Israel' does not fall under this classification. Carnal Israel could never come into The Land in unbelief. Abraham also knew that 'the land' that he was walking on was not his land, it belonged to God and Abraham was only passing through to a better land, Beulah Land.

A witnesses for what? How to establish a blood thirsty carnal aparthide nation? Israeli humanism is not a witness of God, but of Babylon.

You over look the fact that the Bible was not written to you, it was written to 'them'..... them of the first century generation. It was to them that the end of the Ages had come. It was the first century general that saw The Death and Sheol thrown in the Lake of Fire. The 'Time of The End' was their time period, not ours or our future. It was The End of The Mosaic Age.... not an ending of some age to come. Do you call it the 'church age' or the 'christian age'. The New Covenant Age has no end. Ram is not a 'christian' and he even understands that 'the bible' was written to and for another people and another age. We have the bible now for our learning and understanding..... so learn and understand....

Thank you Les for your contribution.

I am aware that the message was "given to them" and I am also aware when a message has a continuation and applies to following generations. Please do not disparage me, we should all be learning and understanding God's word on this Forum. I am giving everyone the benefit of my studies as much as I get the benefit from the contributions of others. I do not have such a closed mind as some would like to make out that I have.

I think in connection with the blessing and cursings that befell Israel and the blessings and cursings that befell them that blessed and cursed Israel, I would ask you to remind yourself of the story of Balaam and Balak in Numbers 24. I do not want to be accused of taking Numbers 24:9 out of context which again says the phrase; "Blessed is he that blesseth thee, and cursed is he that curseth thee".

Of course the outworking of that statement would have been directly attibutable to Abraham, but also a continuation to include his seed or dscendants ought not to be dismissed outright, especially when you condsider what is written elsewhere concerning Israel.

Please can you tell me the time period for Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
These are words of Jesus. If you you see the application of the first part of this prohecy happening in AD70 then what follows is that Jerusalem is trodden down until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Please, when is or was the times of the Gentiles fulfilled because this must happen after AD70? Please what happens to Israel after they have been led away captive into all nations? What is God's plan for the world and for Israel after AD70? Maybe I have missed something, so you answers might be helpful.

All the best,

David

Brother Les
04-18-2012, 07:35 AM
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Luke 21
21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;




David M
I think in connection with the blessing and cursings that befell Israel and the blessings and cursings that befell them that blessed and cursed Israel, I would ask you to remind yourself of the story of Balaam and Balak in Numbers 24. I do not want to be accused of taking Numbers 24:9 out of context which again says the phrase; "Blessed is he that blesseth thee, and cursed is he that curseth thee".

Of course the outworking of that statement would have been directly attibutable to Abraham, but also a continuation to include his seed or dscendants ought not to be dismissed outright, especially when you condsider what is written elsewhere concerning Israel.

You do understand that the word 'Israel' as multiple meanings..... right? Father Israel/Jacob....Israel as a 'whole house'..... Israel as only the Northen House (which by the way when 'Israel' is used by many or the Prophets it ONLY means the Northern Kingdom/House......Israel as the Souther Kingdom/House Israel with a division of the Sons of Darkness and Sons of Light.....The 'called out ones'/The Assembly/The Church (made up for several years of ONLY Jewish Israelites) and then brought into the 'church' many more 'called out ones' who were from the Desporia of The House of Israel/Ephraim.etc...etc....

I want to point out to you that Jewish Israel could NEVER come into the New Covenant BY Itself. The Gentiles/Nations of the Northern House of Israel also had to come into Covenant with YHWH/Jesus AT THE SAME TIME in order for the New Covenant to have its Full Effect of Blessings/Marriage. The is the Whole House of Israel, the Tabernacle of David made up of the Souther tribe of Jews/Ben and the Northern tribes of the Tend 'lost' tribes to become ONE Nation, One Body..... Israel The Church of Jesus Christ.
Galations states with NO Misunderstanding that the Seed of Abraham IS Christ. And with that known then those who make up The Body of Christ ARE Abrahams Seed. The Apostle Paul makes this very very clear. The Church IS Israel (Sons of God).



Please can you tell me the time period for Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
These are words of Jesus. If you you see the application of the first part of this prohecy happening in AD70 then what follows is that Jerusalem is trodden down until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Please, when is or was the times of the Gentiles fulfilled because this must happen after AD70? Please what happens to Israel after they have been led away captive into all nations? What is God's plan for the world and for Israel after AD70? Maybe I have missed something, so you answers might be helpful.

All the best,

David

These be the days of Vengeance...... From Luke 21:20 to Luke 21:25 does not expand out for more than 2,000 years (and counting). All of this happened during the Jewish Wars. You are assuming about 'the Gentiles', the Nations, the tribes.

Strong's H1471 - gowy גּוֹי
Transliteration
gowy
Pronunciation

gō'·ē (Key)


Parts of Speech
masculine noun, proper masculine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

Apparently from the same root as גֵּוָה (H1465)

TWOT Reference
326e

Outline of Biblical Usage n m
1) nation, people

a) nation, people

1) usually of non-Hebrew people

2) of descendants of Abraham

3) of Israel

b) of swarm of locusts, other animals (fig.)


The Times of The Gentiles/Nations/Tribes Fulfilled(Northern House/ which IS called Israel in most of the Bible or Ephraim). The Times of their Desporia Fulfilled. Jewish Israel (Southern Tribes) Could Never Never come into the New Covenant by themselves. The Covenantal Promises that were made to The Fathers (Redemption/Resurrection/Salvvation), were to be bestowed on all of The Elect Israel (not the sons of Darthness within all Israel).

'When was 'the times of the Gentiles' fulfilled? I would say in AD73, when Masada.The Age of The Death was over at that time. The terra firma Jerusalem has no meaning in the New Covenant Age. It is the Jerusalem that came down from above that only has meaning.

David M
04-19-2012, 02:56 PM
'When was 'the times of the Gentiles' fulfilled? I would say in AD73, when Masada.The Age of The Death was over at that time. The terra firma Jerusalem has no meaning in the New Covenant Age. It is the Jerusalem that came down from above that only has meaning.

Hello Les
Thank you for your detailed reply. It is useful knowledge that you have given and explains both natural and spiritual Israel and the time of the divided kingdom very well. I do understand these things, and it is good to be reminded of them. I have not quoted the whole of your text, just the part I disagree with. I do not agree that the prophecy was fulfilled in AD73. AD73 was part of the time when the Jews were scattered throughout all the nations following the destruction of Jerusalem.

Jerusalem has been trodden down since that time for centuries. The land and Jersualem was run down and not really used until the Jews returned and the Nation of Israel was recognized in 1948. Only once the Jews developed the land and restored Jerusalem, the Palestians took an interest and want to share in the profits and resource and claim Jerusalem as their own. If the Palestinians had their way, they would destroy Israel into oblivion as Iran have openly declared.

It was the 6-day war of 1967 when Jerusalem came totally under the control of the Jews for the first time. This was a very important event. Jerusalem will be the place from where Jesus will rule when he returns. Jerusalem is still central to God's plan dealing with His chosen race and the nations surrounding Israel. Secular Israel has an important part to play. I understand that believers belong to the spiritual house of Israel.

I believe Zechariah 12 is still future. Jerusalem remains the burdensome stone it is, and we know control of Jerusalem is is the main controversy between the Palestinians and the Jews. We have yet to see God coming to defend Israel when all the nations are gathered around it to do battle. God did not save Israel in AD70, so the prophecy of Zechariah remains future.

What is your understanding of Zechariah 12 and its fulfillment?

Thanks for chatting.

David

Brother Les
04-20-2012, 01:42 PM
David M
I do not agree that the prophecy was fulfilled in AD73. AD73 was part of the time when the Jews were scattered throughout all the nations following the destruction of Jerusalem.

This is the remnents of the Southern kingdom that were taken away in AD73. Most importantly is that the Temple was gone forever. There is no Scripture bases for a 3rd/4th earthly Temple. Why did I go 3/4? There must be a Temple destroyed at 'the End of The Age'... There must also must be another Temple in 'the Age to come'. This from the paradigm of most dispensationalists. There is no place in the bible for two more stone earthly Temples. The Last Temple (3/4?) is the Heavenly Temple not made by hands coming down from heaven as the New Jerusalem is to. This is the Spiritual Temple made up of peoples all over the world (ye are the Temple of God). 'Jews' were not the only ones from 'Israel' to be in the New Jerusalem in the Age to Come...... Those of modern Israel say they are 'jewish'...... Jewish people following a Pharessian religious cultis. This is not the Religion of Jesus day that must be in place to transition TO The New Covenant. Is The New Covenant Here? There are no more Covenants After The New Covenant.



Jerusalem has been trodden down since that time for centuries. The land and Jersualem was run down and not really used until the Jews returned and the Nation of Israel was recognized in 1948. Only once the Jews developed the land and restored Jerusalem, the Palestians took an interest and want to share in the profits and resource and claim Jerusalem as their own. If the Palestinians had their way, they would destroy Israel into oblivion as Iran have openly declared.

Profits, resources? Jewish Israel is subsidized heavily by Germany and the United States. If those two countries cut off the grants and gifts then Jewish Israel would collapse. Palistine seemed to be very viable for 2,000 years until the intervention of WWI and the partioning of the middleeast along lines drawn on a map and taking little consideration of the people living in the area. Jeusalem was a very viable city before the 1900s.



It was the 6-day war of 1967 when Jerusalem came totally under the control of the Jews for the first time. This was a very important event. Jerusalem will be the place from where Jesus will rule when he returns. Jerusalem is still central to God's plan dealing with His chosen race and the nations surrounding Israel. Secular Israel has an important part to play. I understand that believers belong to the spiritual house of Israel.

The NT says that the 'chosen race' are those who follow Jesus. It is against the law to prosylize Christ in most parts of modern Israel. Modern Israel is not going with the Religion of Moses, but the religion of the BABYLONION Talmad. They worship the gods of Babylon and not YHWH/Christ. In The yomkippur war of '67, Israel was attack on several different sides. The Bible says that on their 'Holy Days' they would always have their Rest. They did not rest on those days. Terra Firma Jerusalem is not where Jesus will rein. He is a Spirit who was manifested for one reason and when that reason was finished He returned to His natural self.



I believe Zechariah 12 is still future. Jerusalem remains the burdensome stone it is, and we know control of Jerusalem is is the main controversy between the Palestinians and the Jews. We have yet to see God coming to defend Israel when all the nations are gathered around it to do battle. God did not save Israel in AD70, so the prophecy of Zechariah remains future.

Terra Firma Jeusalem means nothing. It is no more Holy that any other place on this Earth. Zech. 12 Should be read as all of the other prophets are read. Read it as a Hebrew and understand it in the Eastern Oriental Hebreic mindset as they would understand it.

Richard Amiel McGough
04-20-2012, 02:39 PM
I believe Zechariah 12 is still future. Jerusalem remains the burdensome stone it is, and we know control of Jerusalem is is the main controversy between the Palestinians and the Jews. We have yet to see God coming to defend Israel when all the nations are gathered around it to do battle. God did not save Israel in AD70, so the prophecy of Zechariah remains future.

What is your understanding of Zechariah 12 and its fulfillment?

Hey there David, :yo:

The Bible explicitly states that Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled when Christ was crucified:
John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced [Zechariah 12:10].

Other prophecies in Zechariah were also fulfilled:
Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth. 11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water. 12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;

And another:
Zechariah 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. 8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Now look at the CONTEXT of these fulfilled prophecies - they all connect the coming of Christ with a violent overthrow of Jerusalem. And they are directly connected with the formation of the CHURCH to whom God says "It is my people." All these verses are confirmed by Paul who applied the OT prophecies (which you misapply to future carnal Israel) to the CHURCH:
2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This is confirms that Ezekiel 37 is about Pentecost and the CHURCH which is the true Temple of God:
Ezekiel 37:24 And David my servant [a type fulfilled in Christ] shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd [Christ]: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant [The New Covenant] with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The idea of a future carnal temple of God is entirely contrary to everything in the New Testament.

All the best,

Richard

David M
04-21-2012, 04:10 AM
Terra Firma Jerusalem is not where Jesus will rein.

Hello Les
I see we have a big gulf between us. Nevermind, we have the opportunity to express our understanding.

None of the following will take place on earth according to you?

1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So you do not believe in the Kingdom of God will be on earth? How can this be, when God has declared His Glory shall fill the earth? That is a future event to be realized when Christ hands back a restored kingdom.

All the best

David

David M
04-21-2012, 04:50 AM
Hello Richard
I shall insert my comments in a burnt orange color and biblical quotes in lilac to differentiate between the colors you have used

Hey there David, :yo:

The Bible explicitly states agreed that Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled when Christ was crucified:Wrong. There is plenty of evidence to suggest there is a lot more in the future that has to happen. When you examine every verse in Zechariah 12 there is prophecy that has not been fulfilled. I do not know when the following happened Ezek 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. You quote this verse and do not say where this quotation has come from in the Old Testament. When you find the relevant scripture, are you going to agree prophecy was fulfilled? 37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced [Zechariah 12:10].
'They pierced' is in the sense of a past event. It is not in the immediate sense at the time they looked at Jesus hanging on the tree who had been pierced a few hours before. Like Thomas who would not believe until he had seen Jesus for himself. It was at that time of Thomas seeing, Jesus said to him, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.The situation has to arise for the Jews to be overthrown one final time. It is when Jesus is sent back to save them from annihilation, that they will recognize him when he returns. They will then see the error of their ways and regret what they (as a nation) had done in the past. This is the context in which Zech 12:10 should be considered.
Later in your post you quote from 2 Corinthians, but we learn the following from 2 Cor. 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. If you believe in Christ, then you do not have the veil over your eyes as secular Israel has or those who do not belong to the spiritual household of faith, represented by spiritual Israel
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. The spiritual veil over secular Israel remains in place until this day (even this very day, today). Only when Jesus returns will the veil be taken away when they realize it was Jesus they crucified 2,000 years ago.

Other prophecies in Zechariah were also fulfilled:
Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.This is descriptive of the way Jesus entered Jerusalem and can be seen as a part fulfillment of the total prophecy of Zechariah and identifies this as Jesus. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth. 11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water. 12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;


And another:
Now you are jumping around in Zechariah. Just remember that we have two oracles here.
1. The first oracle: Zec 9:1–11:17
2. The second oracle: Zec 12:1–14:21
Please keep in mind that these two oracles involve the nations, Israel, and Messiah's kingdom.
Zechariah 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. 8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Now look at the CONTEXT of these fulfilled prophecies - they all connect the coming of Christ with a violent overthrow of Jerusalem. I agree with this first part And they are directly connected with the formation of the CHURCH to whom God says "It is my people." All these verses are confirmed by Paul who applied the OT prophecies (which you misapply to future carnal Israel) to the CHURCH:This should be debated before you accuse me of misapplying this prophecy. I am giving reasons why these prophecies include secular Israel. We have both a spiritual Israel and a secular Israel to consider. God is using secular Israel as His witnesses in the world as part of God working in all the nations. Secular Israel does not represent all the saved people who make up Christ’s church and spiritual Israel.
2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.But this applies to all believers of whom you are not one. I am arguing with a disbeliever. Never mind, I shall continue to give an alternative explanation so that you might give my explanations some serious thought and above all, let other visitors to these posts not get the impression that your understanding is the only one to consider. The truth will win in the end.
This is confirms that Ezekiel 37 is about Pentecost and the CHURCH which is the true Temple of God:
Ezekiel 37:24 And David my servant [a type fulfilled in Christ] shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd [Christ]: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with themThis is talking a covenant of peace and in future with secular Israel, in which it speaks of David who at the present time is dead the same as in Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. In keeping with God’s promises David has to be resurrected. That is a future event.
Where is the peace with Israel at present? ; it shall be an everlasting covenant [The New Covenant Where did you get the conclusion the peace covenant is the same as the covenant in the blood of Jesus replacing the old Mosaic law and animal sacrifices? The peace covenant spoken of here in Zechariah is concerning secular Israel and making peace in the future. Eventually, all secular Israel will be converted to the truth the same as all nations will be taught under Christ’s rule] with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The idea of a future carnal temple of God is entirely contrary to everything in the New Testament. In the future Kingdom of God, I agree that temples (like that destroyed in AD 70) will be a thing of the past. God will be 'all and in all' and dwell with man and not be confined in the minds of men to a temple. God does not dwell in temples. Even verse 27 you have quoted says; My tabernacle also shall be with them. What do you understand this tabernacle to be? Even if you say that Christ represents the tabernacle of God, Christ will be a physical reality on earth when he returns which is future.All the best,

Richard

Likewise, all the best.

David

Brother Les
04-23-2012, 03:33 PM
Hello Les
I see we have a big gulf between us. Nevermind, we have the opportunity to express our understanding.

None of the following will take place on earth according to you?

1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So you do not believe in the Kingdom of God will be on earth? How can this be, when God has declared His Glory shall fill the earth? That is a future event to be realized when Christ hands back a restored kingdom.

All the best

David


None of the following will take place on earth according to you?


1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive

This has been done and is on going.


24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

This has been done. He has put down all power, rule and authorit. AND given it ALL to Father God. We are to worship The Father (not the son)


25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

You are having trouble understanding WHO were the enemies of Christ. They were the sons of God of the night. Who are the enemies of Christ today? Most are those who call themselves to be followers of the talmud.


26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

The Death has been destroyed. There was physical death before Genisis one and there will be physical death after the last chapter of Revelation. The Death is not the killing of the body, but the killing of the Spirit.



27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Done, Done



So you do not believe in the Kingdom of God will be on earth? How can this be, when God has declared His Glory shall fill the earth? That is a future event to be realized when Christ hands back a restored kingdom.

Does not the Glory of God fill all of the Earth? There will always be Son of Darkness and Sons of Light. Revelation states that outside the Gate of The City are the dogs. The City is not a brick and mortar city, it is flesh and blood people. The Apostle Paul says 'ye ar The Temple of God and Christ is The Head'. Christ is the chief corner stone of The Temple no made by hands. Where IS Heaven? Where God is..... Is not God everywhere. So Heaven is also on earth.

David M
04-23-2012, 03:58 PM
Does not the Glory of God fill all of the Earth? There will always be Son of Darkness and Sons of Light. Revelation states that outside the Gate of The City are the dogs. The City is not a brick and mortar city, it is flesh and blood people. The Apostle Paul says 'ye ar The Temple of God and Christ is The Head'. Christ is the chief corner stone of The Temple no made by hands. Where IS Heaven? Where God is..... Is not God everywhere. So Heaven is also on earth.

Thank you Les
You have expressed some new ways of looking at things. Not something I readily agree with.

As long as man is sinful and is destroying the earth, I cannot see how God's Glory fills the earth. Ony when the earth is inhabited by all those chosen worthy to be in the kingdom will the earth be rid of sin. That is when we are told that God will dwell with man. He certainly cannot while we are sinful. That is why it is necessary for Jesus to come back and rule for 1,000 years to gradually restore the earth to its former glory. Sin and death will continue until Jesus' rule finally puts and end to it. Once people all begin to lead sinless lives, only then can death be abolished.

I do not know how you can think Jesus has restored the kingdom and handed it back to his Heavenly Father already. The kingdom is nowhere near restored.

Anyway, it has been good to get your take on the matter.


All the best,

David

Brother Les
04-24-2012, 06:58 AM
David M
As long as man is sinful and is destroying the earth, I cannot see how God's Glory fills the earth.

David, it is sliding by you the Hebreic meaning of the Sun, moon, stars, earth. These are Peoples.... Did not Joseph tell his Father Jacob that
Gen 37:
7For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.

8And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.

9And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

10And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

11And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.



Ony when the earth is inhabited by all those chosen worthy to be in the kingdom will the earth be rid of sin. That is when we are told that God will dwell with man. He certainly cannot while we are sinful.

As I said,'the Earth' are The People of God (vs the people of the Sea). If you are a Christian, You can not Sin. You can do many Evil things, but you can not Sin. Sin is the relationship between the individual and God. Evil is the relationship between man and man. The Kingdom of God has as open door, but Sin can not enter in. If you say that you 'sin', then know that you will never be in the kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God had come to Israel in the First Century (and forward) for those who believe, repent and do the will of God.



That is why it is necessary for Jesus to come back and rule for 1,000 years to gradually restore the earth to its former glory.

Gradually 'restore' the 'earth' to its former Glory? It is People that come to the kingdom. The 'restoration' is at the consemation of the Age. The very End of the Age of Death. The Age of Death was the Mosaic Age and Before...... The Mosaic Age Ended in AD70 (not at The Cross). The 1,000 'years' of Christs rule is a metephor. At the Judgement at the End of the Mosaic Age, all power and glory are returned to The Father God.



Sin and death will continue until Jesus' rule finally puts and end to it. Once people all begin to lead sinless lives, only then can death be abolished.

You concept of 'Sin and Death' is from the Western mindset. The meaning of 'Sin and Death' from the Eastern Oriental Hebreic mindset is different. As I said, physical death reined before Genisis one and there is also physical death after the last book of Revelation. 'the Body' of Christ has many members and each memeber has a function. 'The Body' is The church. It is 'The Church/The Body' that has been resurrected from The Death at the end of the Mosaic Age. Since 'the Church/The Body' has been Raised (to stand up) individuals can not come in as the Elect.

David M
05-04-2012, 12:57 AM
Hello Les
It has been a while and I have been dealing with other posts and just come back to this. You have a completely different understanding of events and that is OK, I shall just ask few questions on some of the points you make so I can get a handle on what you believe.


As I said,'the Earth' are The People of God (vs the people of the Sea). If you are a Christian, You can not Sin. You can do many Evil things, but you can not Sin. Sin is the relationship between the individual and God. Evil is the relationship between man and man. The Kingdom of God has as open door, but Sin can not enter in. If you say that you 'sin', then know that you will never be in the kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God had come to Israel in the First Century (and forward) for those who believe, repent and do the will of God.
I know Jesus had no sin and he was the exception. We all have sin , or else we are all liars. I believe that the sacrifice of Jesus becomes our covering for sin once we come into relationship with him. That committment and relationship with Christ is demonstated at baptism and comtinues for the rest of our lifes. Of course it is possible to sin. It is not the intention to sin, gradually by the perfecting of of our nature and getting the mind of Christ that the tendancy to sin becomes less. The ideal to aim for is to do no sin, but to say that I do not sin ever, would make me a liar.
1John 1:18 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Gradually 'restore' the 'earth' to its former Glory? It is People that come to the kingdom. The 'restoration' is at the consemation of the Age. The very End of the Age of Death. The Age of Death was the Mosaic Age and Before...... The Mosaic Age Ended in AD70 (not at The Cross). The 1,000 'years' of Christs rule is a metephor. At the Judgement at the End of the Mosaic Age, all power and glory are returned to The Father God.
I agree that the Mosaic law came to an end, but sin and death continue. An end will come, but from what you say, I have no idea when that will happen.


You concept of 'Sin and Death' is from the Western mindset. The meaning of 'Sin and Death' from the Eastern Oriental Hebreic mindset is different. As I said, physical death reined before Genisis one and there is also physical death after the last book of Revelation. 'the Body' of Christ has many members and each memeber has a function. 'The Body' is The church. It is 'The Church/The Body' that has been resurrected from The Death at the end of the Mosaic Age. Since 'the Church/The Body' has been Raised (to stand up) individuals can not come in as the Elect.
I am not sure how phsical death could have reigned before Genesis 1 before God had made living creatures. I am not sure how physical death will occur after the completion of the all the prophecies in Revelation. (Rev 21:4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. If this is the future state to which God is fulfilling His plan, your statement makes no sense to me.

All the best,

David

Brother Les
05-04-2012, 06:26 AM
David M

I know Jesus had no sin and he was the exception. We all have sin , or else we are all liars. I believe that the sacrifice of Jesus becomes our covering for sin once we come into relationship with him. That committment and relationship with Christ is demonstated at baptism and comtinues for the rest of our lifes. Of course it is possible to sin. It is not the intention to sin, gradually by the perfecting of of our nature and getting the mind of Christ that the tendancy to sin becomes less. The ideal to aim for is to do no sin, but to say that I do not sin ever, would make me a liar.

Read all of Romans 6 slowly and try to take in what it is saying.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this , that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed , that henceforth we should not serve sin.


Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin .


Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with 4 Christ , we believe that we shall also live 4 with him :



I am not sure how phsical death could have reigned before Genesis 1 before God had made living creatures. I am not sure how physical death will occur after the completion of the all the prophecies in Revelation. (Rev 21:4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. If this is the future state to which God is fulfilling His plan, your statement makes no sense to me.

All the best,

David .

My statements make no sense to you on Genesis 1, is because you want Genesis 1 (and 2) to be about the first and only physical creation of Heaven and Earth. The Universe has been around for an untold amount of time in the past. Far beyond 6,000 years. Far beyond a million years. Time was before Genesis 1. The Trinity was before Genesis 1. The Cosmos was before Genesis 1. Earth, Terra Firma was before Genesis 1. Humanoids and thousands of types of (other) animals was before Genesis one. The Story of Genesis 1 (and 2) is about Covenant Creation. Humanoids (adam/man) began a Covenantal relationship with YHWH/EL at the time of Genesis 1 (and 2). Covenantal Life was given. Spiritual Life was given until Adam (The Man) Fell from Grace. Eschatology is not about the ending of physical death, it never was. It is about the return to Spiritual Life. Generations come and Generations go, but the World will last forever. Do not fear the one that can kill the body, but fear the One that can kill the Soul. It is the Soul that will live on (or not) by Grace and Grace alone. Your Faith is not that you physical body will live on, for it will not. Your Faith is that your Spirit will continue with its creator. The tears and sorrow and crying and pain of the physical were before Genesis 1 and will remain after Revelation. It is something far greater than the physical.

David M
05-05-2012, 03:22 AM
Thank you Les


Read all of Romans 6 slowly and try to take in what it is saying.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this , that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed , that henceforth we should not serve sin.


Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin .


Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with 4 Christ , we believe that we shall also live 4 with him :

I have read this chapter many times. Chapter 6 is about baptism, resurrection and eternal life.
Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


Further comments added in red.

My statements make no sense to you on Genesis 1, is because you want Genesis 1 (and 2) to be about the first and only physical creation of Heaven and Earth. The Universe has been around for an untold amount of time in the past. Far beyond 6,000 years. I agree Far beyond a million years. I agree, but then we cannot be certain of times. Man's calculations might be flawedTime was before Genesis 1. The Trinity was before Genesis 1.I disagree. There was never a Trinity. The Cosmos was before Genesis 1. Earth, Terra Firma was before Genesis 1I agree. Humanoids and thousands of types of (other) animals was before Genesis one. I disagree; we are not toldThe Story of Genesis 1 (and 2) is about Covenant Creation. Humanoids (adam/man) began a Covenantal relationship with YHWH/EL at the time of Genesis 1 (and 2). Covenantal Life was given. Spiritual Life was given until Adam (The Man) Fell from GraceYou will need to spell out the covenants given by God to Adam before the fall. Eschatology is not about the ending of physical death, it never wasThe Bible defines death. However, I agree that the Bible tells of a future life after death. It is about the return to Spiritual Lifein a physical body. The spirit of the mind is the spiritual life I recognize.. Generations come and Generations go, but the World will last foreverI agree. Do not fear the one that can kill the body, but fear the One that can kill the Soul.I agree. It is the Soul that will live on (or not) by Grace and Grace aloneI agree in as much as Jesus said;"into thy hands I commend my spirit." That spirit was reunited with his body at resurrection. Jesus has now an incorruptible body to live for evermore. It is a physical body. Your Faith is not that you physical body will live on, for it will not. Your Faith is that your Spirit will continue with its creatorOnly in as much as God has promised resurrection to those judged acceptable. Life will continue in a physical body. The tears and sorrow and crying and pain of the physical were before Genesis 1 and will remain after Revelation. It is something far greater than the physical.I disagree. Talking of human pain, this did not exist before humans were made. God has promised to put away pain, crying and sorrow, death etc. as I quoted already from Revelation. I cannot see how this will continue in humans in the kingdom to come as God has promised to put an end to these things.

Thanks again for your answer, though I have to disagree on many points.


David

TheForgiven
05-16-2012, 06:00 AM
Why does it matter if Obama refused to recognize Jerusalem (secular) as the capital of Israel? This has nothing to do with the Church, nor with God. There is only ONE Jerusalem as Jesus explained to the Samaritan woman; the Jerusalem (or Mountain) that is from above, and not below. So what Obama believes about secular Israel means nothing to the world. It is a historical site of where the Lord Jesus performed his miracles; it is a historical site that gave birth to the world. But should secular Israel be recognized as God's chosen country and/or people? No; not for the past 2,000 years.

The Israel that is from above is of Christ. Those who are in Christ Jesus are Jews in the Spirit, and not by the flesh. This is why Paul stated quite a few times that in Christ, there is neither slave, nor free, rich or poor, Jew or Gentile; all who are in Christ are free, and thus make up the Israel from above. The city we live in is not a physical city that can be seen; it is a spiritual city filled with Christians who worship in faith, by faith, and through faith; not by location, habitat, or mountain. This is a common misconception by Protestants, and some Roman Catholics who fail to understand that nature of God's kingdom.

It's unfortunate that Protestants today continue to make the same error made by Jews 2,000 years ago. And yet Jesus explained it to them very clearly. They asked of the Kingdom, "When shall it [kingdom] come"? Jesus said, "The Kingdom of God will not come in such a way that one exclaims, 'there it is', or "look there!" No, the kingdom of God is within you; in the Spirit, not the building.

Thus, the Kingdom of God is a Spiritual kingdom; Christians from all over the world, who worship not on a physical mountain, but a Spiritual one. The Church and Israel are the same, and Jerusalem and the Church are the same; they are all the same; there is no distinction. In ancient times, there were Jews and Gentiles (foreigners). But since the miracle of Christ and His work in establishing the Kingdom of God through the works of the Apostles, there are only Christians and Gentiles. As stated, a Chrisitan is a Jew and a Jew is a Christian; they are one and the same. Protestants are in error when they use the phrase, "Christians and Jews". This may have applied 2,000 years ago, when Jews under the Old Covenant were defined by their Hebrew birth. But not so today, as there hasn't been a Hebrew in existance for 2,000 years.

Joseph