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ali
03-25-2012, 01:02 AM
Shalom Everyone,

I'm Ali, I'm from Tehran and I'm glad that I'll have the chance to share with you some of my thoughts. I have been spending my time in the past couple years focusing on Biblical and Quranic studies, specifically studying the "bridges" between Bible and Quran. I'd like to start with describing the meaning of the word Islam to share some perspective with you;

The Arabic word Islam comes from the Semitic root "SHLM", (just like shalom), and it means "THE state of being whole and complete". From Quran's POV, a Muslim is a person who believes and supports all divinely revealed books of prophets, revelations before Mohammad as well as the one divine book revealed to Muhammad himself. Therefore:

a. A believer in the chain of revelation as a whole, is called a "Muslim" and Islam as "THE state of being whole and complete" is founded upon the whole chain of revelation, not just one part of it. Here are some citations from Quran proving my claims:

Say: "We believe in God and what has been sent down to us, and what had been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their progeny, and that which was given to Moses and Christ, and to all other prophets by the Lord. We make no distinction among them, and we submit to Him (though a lame trans. of Arabic word: moslemoon to submitter!)." http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedali/2:136


...Who believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed to those before you, and are certain of the Hereafter. (4) They have found the guidance of their Lord and will be successful. (5) http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedali/2:4

b. The majority of the so-called Muslim of today, unfortunately, have put above-mentioned verses behind their backs as if they have no knowledge of them.

I've witnessed that they dare to go beyond the red line claiming that the Bible is not even a divine book. Now this is not a new claim, refuters of Muhammad since then made similar claims as well. I'll cite this verse from Quran to prove that refuters of Muhammad were refuters of other prophets as well. And Quran has registered a blunt warning regarding these people:


And when the son of Mary is cited as an example, behold, thy people turn away from it (57) and say, 'What, are our gods better, or he?' They cite not him to thee, save to dispute;. nay, but they are a people contentious. (58) He (Christ) is only a servant We blessed, and We made him to be an example to the Children of Israel. http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/43:57

c. Unfortunately, the majority of the people of the book (followers of Judaism and Christianity), now and then, repeat the same claims this time regarding Quran.

I have seen many people who pass the red-line claiming that Quran is not a divine word, and again this claim is not anything new and in retrospect Quran has registered many blunt warnings to these people as well:


You who have been given the Book, believe in what We have sent down, confirming what is with you, before We obliterate faces, and turn them upon their backs, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-men, and God's command is done. (47) http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/4:47

I believe Islam is neither with the refuters of Bible nor with refuters of Quran. In this regard, I believe the people of the book (known as Jewish, Christian) and the so-called Muslim of today, BOTH, should covert to "THE state of being whole and complete", towards the belief in both the Bible and the Quran as a united entity that shape the chain of revelation.

This is the Islam that I know based on Quran and the Bible, and this is the definition of Islam IMO. No matter what the mainstream media propagates.

Thank you and Shalom !
Ali.

Richard Amiel McGough
03-25-2012, 11:40 AM
Shalom Everyone,

I'm Ali, I'm from Tehran and I'm glad that I'll have the chance to share with you some of my thoughts. I have been spending my time in the past couple years focusing on Biblical and Quranic studies, specifically studying the "bridges" between Bible and Quran. I'd like to start with describing the meaning of the word Islam to share some perspective with you;

The Arabic word Islam comes from the Semitic root "SHLM", (just like shalom), and it means "THE state of being whole and complete". From Quran's POV, a Muslim is a person who believes and supports all divinely revealed books of prophets, revelations before Mohammad as well as the one divine book revealed to Muhammad himself. Therefore:

...

I believe Islam is neither with the refuters of Bible nor with refuters of Quran. In this regard, I believe the people of the book (known as Jewish, Christian) and the so-called Muslim of today, BOTH, should covert to "THE state of being whole and complete", towards the belief in both the Bible and the Quran as a united entity that shape the chain of revelation.

This is the Islam that I know based on Quran and the Bible, and this is the definition of Islam IMO. No matter what the mainstream media propagates.

Thank you and Shalom !
Ali.
Hi Ali, :yo:

Welcome to our forum!

:welcome:

I very much appreciate your approach. There is indeed a lot in common between the Quran and the Bible. But there is one big problem. The books contradict each other on some essential points, most notably the status of Jesus as the "son of God" and the fact that he was crucified, buried, and resurrected. This is why most people can't believe that both were "inspired" by God.

How do you reconcile the contradictions between the Quran and the Bible? The typical Islamic approach is to assert that the Bible was corrupted, but that is impossible because we have many early manuscripts that show these fundamental doctrines were in the Bible from the beginning. So how do you understand it?

All the very best,

Richard

ali
03-26-2012, 07:19 AM
Hello Richard, Thank you :)

Actually neither Bible nor Quran have been corrupted even an iota! It might be surprising for you to know that Quran, by itself, testifies the eternity and validity of Biblical text in numerous quotes. I may, in a separate thread in the future, list those Quranic verses to shake people! and let the people know that how countless are these Quranic proclamations that defend Bible. I know that there are many so-called Muslims that would keep those verses in low profiles, so they can drive their political agendas in the long run!..But this is not what I do.

back to your question: where have all these misunderstandings or contradictions come from?

The answer is very simple: translations.

We are living 14 centuries after Quran, 20 centuries after Gospels, 30 centuries after David's Tehlim and 34 centuries after Torah. The politics of naming and semantics in our societies has changed constantly. But the word of divine has remained absolute. So the struggle is in the relativity of our semantics vs. absoluteness of semantic of divine.

Keep in mind that even the most highly educated scholarship of today in the field of Quranic or Biblical studies- I'm talking about those who sit high in universities and pose in think tanks- merely refer to the same old classic mistranslated lexicons and dictionaries of the bible or Quran that we use today, in order to track translation. Very few people actually ask themselves if the dictionaries or lexicons that they use, present us with the real meaning of that specific word under discussion. Most people tend to forget that any dictionary or lexicon is built upon other dictionaries..And those in turn rely on numerous other third party dictionaries...and if you track up the chain of the sources you'll end up eventually in a deadened or at best "someone's opinion" ! It won't be far from the truth to claim that the "dictionaries and the lexicons of today" are our real bibles..are our real Qurans...Because we rely more on them than the divine text itself ! And that's the beginning of all problems. without them we can not even translate a simple "Vav" either from Quran or from Bible.

So if we want to reconcile the contradictions between Quran and the Bible, we need to inevitably, find answers for couple of epistemological questions:

1- Does our translation represents the real divine intention?
2- How do we know that our translation is representing the real divine intention?
3- How reliable is our answer to question 2?
4- How do we know that we know the answer of question 3?

Example: Resurrection of Jesus

In 4:157 (http://tanzil.net/#4:157) of Quran, basically the most mistranslated verse from Quran for every Christian, Quran clearly says in one part that he, meaning Jesus, "returned to them" (Sh-b-h, L-HM), pointing and confirming the Gospel's revelation about resurrection of Jesus in essence. I leave you with that link, to see how Quranic scholars have mis-translated that verse!!..And that happens because they don't like to answer those above-mentioned 4 questions, they say, "it is as we say and you have to take it"..and in brief the translator IS the dictator of all ages!

Dear Richard,

As far as Biblical or Quranic translation is being implemented with "minds have been pre-occupied", neither Quranic nor Biblical translation can reconcile in any point. But if we occupy our minds with divine revelation only (something that Quranic and Biblical translator's do not do!), and allow the divine text to reveal the reality for itself, and let the semantics of divine text reveals for itself, then you would see not only reconciliation but a great marvel that starts from Torah which eventually ends in Quran.


Yet when the truth came to them 'from Ourselves, they said, 'Why has he not been given the like' of that Moses was given?' But they, did they not disbelieve also in what Moses was given aforetime? They said, 'A pair of sorceries mutually supporting each other.' They said, 'We disbelieve both.' (48) Say: 'Bring a Book from God that gives better guidance than these two, and follow it, if you speak truly.' (28:48-49)

In the long run, I found Semantic studies of Jeff Benner and his Ancient Hebrew Studies, very practical in fusing the bridges between Quran and Bible. But hopefully in the future I would upgrade the backbone of his methodology some how to a more profound level with the help of Quran and Bible as well.

So the translation is everything.

Best regards,
Ali.

Richard Amiel McGough
03-26-2012, 09:49 AM
Hello Richard, Thank you :)

Actually neither Bible nor Quran have been corrupted even an iota! It might be surprising for you to know that Quran, by itself, testifies the eternity and validity of Biblical text in numerous quotes. I may, in a separate thread in the future, list those Quranic verses to shake people! and let the people know that how countless are these Quranic proclamations that defend Bible. I know that there are many so-called Muslims that would keep those verses in low profiles, so they can drive their political agendas in the long run!..But this is not what I do.

back to your question: where have all these misunderstandings or contradictions come from?

The answer is very simple: translations.

We are living 14 centuries after Quran, 20 centuries after Gospels, 30 centuries after David's Tehlim and 34 centuries after Torah. The politics of naming and semantics in our societies has changed constantly. But the word of divine has remained absolute. So the struggle is in the relativity of our semantics vs. absoluteness of semantic of divine.

Keep in mind that even the most highly educated scholarship of today in the field of Quranic or Biblical studies- I'm talking about those who sit high in universities and pose in think tanks- merely refer to the same old classic mistranslated lexicons and dictionaries of the bible or Quran that we use today, in order to track translation. Very few people actually ask themselves if the dictionaries or lexicons that they use, present us with the real meaning of that specific word under discussion. Most people tend to forget that any dictionary or lexicon is built upon other dictionaries..And those in turn rely on numerous other third party dictionaries...and if you track up the chain of the sources you'll end up eventually in a deadened or at best "someone's opinion" ! It won't be far from the truth to claim that the "dictionaries and the lexicons of today" are our real bibles..are our real Qurans...Because we rely more on them than the divine text itself ! And that's the beginning of all problems. without them we can not even translate a simple "Vav" either from Quran or from Bible.

So if we want to reconcile the contradictions between Quran and the Bible, we need to inevitably, find answers for couple of epistemological questions:

1- Does our translation represents the real divine intention?
2- How do we know that our translation is representing the real divine intention?
3- How reliable is our answer to question 2?
4- How do we know that we know the answer of question 3?

Example: Resurrection of Jesus

In 4:157 (http://tanzil.net/#4:157) of Quran, basically the most mistranslated verse from Quran for every Christian, Quran clearly says in one part that he, meaning Jesus, "returned to them" (Sh-b-h, L-HM), pointing and confirming the Gospel's revelation about resurrection of Jesus in essence. I leave you with that link, to see how Quranic scholars have mis-translated that verse!!..And that happens because they don't like to answer those above-mentioned 4 questions, they say, "it is as we say and you have to take it"..and in brief the translator IS the dictator of all ages!

Dear Richard,

As far as Biblical or Quranic translation is being implemented with "minds have been pre-occupied", neither Quranic nor Biblical translation can reconcile in any point. But if we occupy our minds with divine revelation only (something that Quranic and Biblical translator's do not do!), and allow the divine text to reveal the reality for itself, and let the semantics of divine text reveals for itself, then you would see not only reconciliation but a great marvel that starts from Torah which eventually ends in Quran.
Yet when the truth came to them 'from Ourselves, they said, 'Why has he not been given the like' of that Moses was given?' But they, did they not disbelieve also in what Moses was given aforetime? They said, 'A pair of sorceries mutually supporting each other.' They said, 'We disbelieve both.' (48) Say: 'Bring a Book from God that gives better guidance than these two, and follow it, if you speak truly.' (28:48-49)

In the long run, I found Semantic studies of Jeff Benner and his Ancient Hebrew Studies, very practical in fusing the bridges between Quran and Bible. But hopefully in the future I would upgrade the backbone of his methodology some how to a more profound level with the help of Quran and Bible as well.

So the translation is everything.

Best regards,
Ali.
Hi Ali, :tea:

I really appreciate your approach. Last year it occurred to me that the contradictions between Islam and the Bible are no more serious than the contradictions within the Bible itself, and if folks devoted as much effort to resolve the former as the latter, there could possibly be a resolution. I even went so far as to develop a common confession of faith made of statements from the Bible and Quran that confirm each other. I never finished it because the list was too big! Here is how I started it:

A COMMON CONFESSION OF FAITH FOR MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS
The following Confession of Faith is based upon nothing but the explicit statements found in both the Qur'an and the Bible. I have quoted verses from three primary translations of the Qur'an (Yusuf Ali, Pickthall, Shakir) which can be viewed in parallel here (http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/001.qmt.html). Likewise, I have quoted from various translations of the Bible (KJV, NKJV, NAS, NIV) that can be compared here (http://bible.cc/genesis/1-1.htm).

1) I BELIEVE GOD is One - there is no other:


Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: (Deuteronomy 6:4)
Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal. (Quran 3:3)
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: (Deuteronomy 32:39)
And He is Allah: There is no god but He. To Him be praise, at the first and at the last: (Quran 28:70)

2) I BELIEVE GOD is Unique - there is none like Him:


there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things) (Quran 42:11)
And he said, LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, (1 Kings 8:23)

3) I BELIEVE GOD is Creator of Heaven and Earth:


In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Genesis 1:1)
Say: O Allah! Creator of the heavens and the earth! Knower of the Invisible and the Visible! (Quran 39:46)

4) I BELIEVE GOD is Eternal and Immortal:


Allah! There is no god but He, the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. (Quran 2:255)
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. (1 Timothy 1:17)

5) I BELIEVE GOD is First and Last:


I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6)
He is the First and the Last, and the Outward and the Inward; and He is Knower of all things. (Quran 57:3)

6) I BELIEVE GOD is Sovereign, Holy, Exalted far above all things:


Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme: (Quran 57:23)
He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords; 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. (1 Timothy 6:15-16)

7) I BELIEVE GOD is most Gracious, Most Merciful, and Very Forgiving:


If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Quran 3:31)
O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. (Psalm 136:1)
And as to those who do evil deeds, then repent after that and believe, your Lord after that is most surely Forgiving, Merciful. (Quran 7:153)
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)
Nor do I absolve my own self (of blame): the (human) soul is certainly prone to evil, unless my Lord do bestow His Mercy: but surely my Lord is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (Quran 12:53)
And seek forgiveness of Allah. Lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. (Quran 4:106)

8 ) I BELIEVE GOD sees all. Nothing is hidden from Him:


Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. (Hebrews 4:13)
Lo! nothing in the earth or in the heavens is hidden from Allah. (Quran 3:5)

9) I BELIEVE GOD gave revelation to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and Jesus:


Say: We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. (Quran 3:84)
But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets. (Acts 24:14)

10) I BELIEVE GOD revealed the Torah and the Gospel:


All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (2 Timothy 3:16)
He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. (Quran 3:3)

11) I BELIEVE GOD sent Jesus to be Messiah, and that he was born of the virgin Mary:

Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;
Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:34)

12) I BELIEVE GOD gave Jesus power to heal the blind and the lepers and to raise the dead:


Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. (Luke 7:22)
And Allah will teach him [Jesus] the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel, [and he shall say] I heal the blind, and the lepers and I raise the dead by God's leave. (Quran, 3:48-49)

The list could go on and on and on. The Quran and the Bible have a vast amount of mutually confirming verses. But there is a problem. After carefully studying the Bible in the original Hebrew and Greek, I can no longer believe that it is inspired by God because it contains many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God. And in as much as the Quran says the same things as the Bible, it will have the same problems. For example, there was no literal Adam and Eve, no literal worldwide flood, etc.

Getting back to your solution to the contradictions. I looked at 4:157 (http://tanzil.net/#4:157) and could not see how it could fit your interpretation. Could you please post the translation that you think is correct? As an aside, I note that the Arabic Sh-B-H L-HM looks almost identical to Hebrew.

And there is one big problem with your thesis - if you are correct, then no one has ever properly understood either the Bible or Quran. Why would God give us those books knowing that they would be grossly misunderstood?

I look forward to discussing this with you.

All the very best,

Richard

ali
03-26-2012, 01:29 PM
Hello Richard!

And I'm happy to see that confession of faith. Though it seems that we have a lot to talk about. :specool:


if you are correct, then no one has ever properly understood either the Bible or Quran. Why would God give us those books knowing that they would be grossly misunderstood?

In response to the above quote, here is the premise:

Both Biblical and Quranic message are "weighty (http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/73:5)". Both Books should be read as much as feasible on daily basis (http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/73:20). Both books invite the utmost attention (http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/7:204) of the reader. Now here I ask, seriously, how many people do you know around that spend this much of attention and time on daily basis in respect to the divine word? :).. Now I move on... saying that both books heal the heart of the reader, if the heart is not sealed with anything (http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/47:24) else already. And the latter, is the beginning of the real reader's problems. In effect, by the time that we realize that we need to read Bible or Quran, our hearts are already filled (http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/83:14) and pre-occupied with different items of our civilization, you name it: Culture, Education, Media, Family traditions, the public sphere as a whole to cut it short...Now that's why when we sit down to read Bible, to read Quran, we are not sitting down with our own pure heart. We sit down with a swerving (http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/3:7) heart, with a rebellious heart. A heart that doesn't know that it doesn't know! A heart that in its paramount illumination, has been taught to think "critically" and "rationally"; which are another labels for Hellenistic piracy!!

Now when you and me everyday, with that kind of heart, with that kind of Greek-o-Roman heart, sit to engage with the divine word, we will find it "irrational", "clumsy", "full of contradictions" and perhaps not suitable for our modern Hellenic life. So whose fault is this? Is it us? or is it with the Bible? Are we not doing wrong, when we approach the divine word with our predefined frameworks? Is it not that it should be vice versa? That the divine word has to define our framework of understanding? our Semantic framework?...If the divine word is THE only meta-narrative of life, then we should let it be...But this has not been the case during the course of history. People have been driving with the wrong vehicle I'd say. I can talk about Quran and the influence of Hellenic teachings on its audience:


With the introduction of Greek-Roman socialization in the province of Arabia, and translation of Greek content to Aramaic Syriac language, Arabs and persians became one of the few surviving poles of the Hellenistic literature. In retrospect, the so-called Arabic/Islamic/Persian scholarship indeed is branded as the continuance of that Hellenistic line in scholarship of today.

But after revelation of Quran, they changed color and tried to put their Hellenistic teachings side-by-side of Quranic text, although conflictual !, to build a face for themselves...to survive and to corrupt the communities of believers.... and finally Hellenizing the followers of last revelation as well. (Assuming that they have already Hellenized Judaism and Christianity in the course of history)


The Arabs are more stubborn in unbelief and hypocrisy, and apter not to know the bounds of what Allah has sent down on His Messenger; and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. (Quran 9:97)

See! Do they recite above like verses of Quran in public usually?...of course not!

Doctors, physicians, astronomers, mathematicians, chemists, you name it..people who were brought up believing and supporting Hellenistic assumptions of knowledge-- mainly Arabs and Persians either Jewish, Christian or Muslim-- then faced a crucial challenge: Quran.

How this is related to our discussion?

My word is that, since science, like philosophy, is a human-made vehicle and because revelation (from Torah to Quran) is the divine vehicle, it is impossible to approach the divine content with pre-occupied mind full of Hellenistic assumptions about the source of knowledge. It is impossible....because there is an essential belief for belivers of scripture (from Torah to Quran): The Elohim knows everything, and man doesn't know anything at all. Hellenistic mindset doesn't accept this essence at all....very simple.

An Example: Big Bang

Take the big bang theory. When the theory came out and got a noble, many islamic scholars at the time, started to claim that Quran already has addressed the big-bang issue! Now this was a very predictable kind of behavior of those hypocrites!...You know it is actually the other way around..Quran just like Bereshit 1:1, announces that in the beginning Elohim "fattened (http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/21:30)" the sky and the earth. (mistranslated as created in every Bible and Quran). But since Hellenistic Islamic scholarship (the dominant scholarship) couldn't wait to spread the red-carpet in front of the scientific discourse, they reacted like that... and accepted the premise that the world has came into existence out of "nothing"!..A claim contrary to Torahic and Quranic text.

IMO: the assumption that scientific discourse can validate the divine content, fundamentally and epistemologically is wrong. The former (science) is facing huge fundamental questions about its assumptions and reliability of its sources of knowledge, while the latter (divine text) provides answer to questions of which can't be answered by science at all.

So I believe if anyone steps into this premise, would end up asking millions of questions about for example Noah's flood, or the creation of earth and etc, that none on this planet could find an answer for them, except the hypocrites of Islam, Christianity and Judaism = or their Hellenized scholarship better to put. (Whole Indent is quoting my own response from another forum)

Dear Richard, I'd like to ask, how many people around you, have considered these issues? How many actually are approaching the divine word (Bible and Quran) with clean heart? with no pre-occupation? Shall we then conclude that the divine word is always the shunned one?


The Messenger says, 'O my Lord, behold, my people have taken this Koran as a thing to be shunned.' (25:30 (http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.arberry/25:30))

with all the bests,
Ali.

Lotus Feet
03-29-2012, 03:02 PM
Shalom Everyone,

I'm Ali, I'm from Tehran and I'm glad that I'll have the chance to share with you some of my thoughts. I have been spending my time in the past couple years focusing on Biblical and Quranic studies, specifically studying the "bridges" between Bible and Quran. I'd like to start with describing the meaning of the word Islam to share some perspective with you;

Welcome Ali, welcome Tehran,



The Arabic word Islam comes from the Semitic root "SHLM", (just like shalom), and it means "THE state of being whole and complete". From Quran's POV, a Muslim is a person who believes and supports all divinely revealed books of prophets, revelations before Mohammad as well as the one divine book revealed to Muhammad himself. Therefore:

a. A believer in the chain of revelation as a whole, is called a "Muslim" and Islam as "THE state of being whole and complete" is founded upon the whole chain of revelation, not just one part of it. Here are some citations from Quran proving my claims:

Let me correct you. The root of shalom means 'be whole' and it has absolutely nothing to do with books.





Say: "We believe in God and what has been sent down to us, and what had been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their progeny, and that which was given to Moses and Christ, and to all other prophets by the Lord. We make no distinction among them, and we submit to Him (though a lame trans. of Arabic word: moslemoon to submitter!)." http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.ahmedali/2:136

If that were true there would be no mosques because Jesus stood against religious buildings and everything they stand for. Muslims say that they follow the law of the prophets, yet. Everyday hey prove that they don't. Most Muslims live in the way of man and not the way of the Spirit. Orthodox Jews and Christians are the same.



I've witnessed that they dare to go beyond the red line claiming that the Bible is not even a divine book. Now this is not a new claim, refuters of Muhammad since then made similar claims as well. I'll cite this verse from Quran to prove that refuters of Muhammad were refuters of other prophets as well. And Quran has registered a blunt warning regarding these people:

Muhammad is easily refuted because he is not who they say he is. To be a true Prophet of God, the prophet has to have fulfilled the biblical prophecies and Muhammad did not fulfill the biblical prophecies.

Lotus Feet
03-29-2012, 03:15 PM
And there is one big problem with your thesis - if you are correct, then no one has ever properly understood either the Bible or Quran. Why would God give us those books knowing that they would be grossly misunderstood?

I look forward to discussing this with you.

All the very best,

Richard

Correct Richard the bible has never been properly understood, that is why even the Rabbi's do not agree with each other.

Why did God do what he did?

The bible tells you why. He had it all planned out. He planned to make fools of them all. That is why Jesus gave his followers the parable of the Virgins to pre-warn them.

From Isaiah 44

Jerusalem to Be Inhabited

24 'This is what the LORD says—
your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
I am the LORD,
the Maker of all things,
who stretches out the heavens,
who spreads out the earth by myself,
25 who foils the signs of false prophets
and makes fools of diviners,
who overthrows the learning of the wise
and turns it into nonsense,
26 who carries out the words of his servants
and fulfills the predictions of his messengers,

who says of Jerusalem, ‘It shall be inhabited,’
of the towns of Judah, ‘They shall be rebuilt,’
and of their ruins, ‘I will restore them,’
27 who says to the watery deep, ‘Be dry,
and I will dry up your streams,’
28 who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd
and will accomplish all that I please;
he will say of Jerusalem, 'Let it be rebuilt,'
and of the temple, 'Let its foundations be laid.'’


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+44&version=NIV

ali
03-29-2012, 09:51 PM
Hello Lotus Feet

Thank you for your comments :)


Let me correct you. The root of shalom means 'be whole' and it has absolutely nothing to do with books.

According to Quran, Moslem (as possessor of wholeness), is one who believes in Quran and its previous revelations as a one whole chain. This is not my personal conclusion but I can provide you with more Quranic verses if you like! It is only then that one finds completeness and wholeness of spirit/heart/soul. So I assert that Islam is the state of believing in the whole/complete chain of divine revelation, not just part of it.


If that were true there would be no mosques because Jesus stood against religious buildings and everything they stand for. Muslims say that they follow the law of the prophets, yet. Everyday hey prove that they don't. Most Muslims live in the way of man and not the way of the Spirit. Orthodox Jews and Christians are the same.

Mosque is an optional place for conducting 5 times prayer towards the Lord of the universe. Not even a place to call another being! I don't see any contradiction between going to the mosque to conduct daily prayer and the belief in All prophets mentioned by that verse of Quran. Do you? But if your comment asks why today we have 3 separate places of prayer (mosque, synagoge, church), I would respond because we are not all yet Muslim (the state of believing in the whole chain of revelation). Jews do not agree with Christians, Christians do not agree with (so-called) Muslims and vice verse! That's why they have separated their worship venues.


Muhammad is easily refuted because he is not who they say he is. To be a true Prophet of God, the prophet has to have fulfilled the biblical prophecies and Muhammad did not fulfill the biblical prophecies.

Your statement reminded me of those B'nei Israel who used to reject or kill their own prophets, whose stories you can find in Bible and Quran as well. I invite your attention to the commandment of Torah: To listen to the prophet speaking in His Name (Deut. 18:15). What do you think?

Ali.

Lotus Feet
03-30-2012, 03:42 AM
Hello Lotus Feet

Thank you for your comments :)



According to Quran, Moslem (as possessor of wholeness), is one who believes in Quran and its previous revelations as a one whole chain. This is not my personal conclusion but I can provide you with more Quranic verses if you like! It is only then that one finds completeness and wholeness of spirit/heart/soul. So I assert that Islam is the state of believing in the whole/complete chain of divine revelation, not just part of it.

Thank you for your reply Ali,

Please give me the name of the Islamic scholar that interpreted 'wholeness' to you in this way. I will then review his work and bring him forward before the LORD God for judgement. As Arabic cannot be fully translated into English it doesn't help much to share it in English. However, give me one example and I will look at it for you.



Mosque is an optional place for conducting 5 times prayer towards the Lord of the universe. Not even a place to call another being! I don't see any contradiction between going to the mosque to conduct daily prayer and the belief in All prophets mentioned by that verse of Quran. Do you? But if your comment asks why today we have 3 separate places of prayer (mosque, synagoge, church), I would respond because we are not all yet Muslim (the state of believing in the whole chain of revelation). Jews do not agree with Christians, Christians do not agree with (so-called) Muslims and vice verse! That's why they have separated their worship venues.

Many Jews do agree with Christians; it is a Judeo-Christian philosophy based upon the words that the Jewish prophets delivered. Jesus stood against religious buildings and the motive for them. He also stood against reciting scripture and told his followers not to babble like pagans. He stood against fasting and told his followers to pray in secret, behind a closed door alone. He did not support public worship, although the texts share that the did tell a group what to say if they chose to pray. I have to say that in all of the years that I worked closely with him, he did not ask me to pray once.




Your statement reminded me of those B'nei Israel who used to reject or kill their own prophets, whose stories you can find in Bible and Quran as well. I invite your attention to the commandment of Torah: To listen to the prophet speaking in His Name (Deut. 18:15). What do you think?

Ali.

First you have to prove the credibility that Mo was a prophet. Bring your evidence to support your claim that does not include quotes from the Koran. However, first you have to understand the criteria for a true prophet. Hopefully you have done your research on that.


Deu 18:15 states

The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.

Now if you are saying that verse is talking about Mo, then you now have to prove it.

1. Was Mo Jewish or have Jewish blood in his veins?
2. Did he have the prophets name written in that verse in scripture?
3. Was he the one promised to Moses?
4. Was Mo like Moses? For instance, did he have the skin disease that Moses had?

The answer to all four questions is no.

Next?

ali
03-30-2012, 05:38 AM
Thank you Lotus feet,


1. Was Mo Jewish or have Jewish blood in his veins?
Avraham wasn't Jewish either right!?..But he was a prophet right? How about Noah was he Jewish? How about Jacob even, was he a jew?! The answer is no for all these questions.


2. Did he have the prophets name written in that verse in scripture? & 3. Was he the one promised to Moses?
It doesn't have Samuel's name either there, neither Jesus's name nor many other names in that verse..Do you consider individuals or you look to the content of individual's books? Is not the "divine message sent down" to that individual more important than himself?


4. Was Mo like Moses? For instance, did he have the skin disease that Moses had?
Are you kidding?! ..What does skin disease have to do with a prophet's divine book? Again it seems that you seek form more than "divine content".

I think I need to remind you that the Lord of the universe is not a racist, nor is he a monopolist. He is not fond of a specific group of people, unless of course they obey him. But that's not the case about the history of Judaism right? He is Akhad, he doesn't need any people or a race, and he stands unique and separate by himself. Generations come and go, but his words will remain unchanged forever.

I could provide you with Quranic verses about the essence of Islam as a belief in wholeness of the chain of revelations. But it seems that you are rejecting the divine word of Quran as a genuine message from the Lord of the seven heavens! Thus it seems that we have to leave the judgement for this argument to the Lord of the universe himself.

O believers, fear God, and believe in His Messenger, and He will give you a twofold portion of His mercy; and He will appoint for you a light whereby you shall walk, and forgive you; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate;that the People of the Book may know that they have no power over anything of God's bounty, and that bounty is in the hand of God; He gives it unto whomsoever He will; and God is of bounty abounding. (57:28-29)

Finally I'd like to ask if you have ever read Quran from a good translation really?

:yo:

duxrow
03-30-2012, 08:07 AM
Scuse plz, but have heard that the word "Hebrew" may precede Abraham and have roots in the name of Eber. Ge:10:21: Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were children born.
Anyone know if there's anything to this? :(

Lotus Feet
03-30-2012, 08:35 AM
Thank you Lotus feet,


Avraham wasn't Jewish either right!?..But he was a prophet right? How about Noah was he Jewish? How about Jacob even, was he a jew?! The answer is no for all these questions.


The verse that you quoted is not referring to the people that you have mentioned. Nor were they like Moses either.

So for the second time, Mo did not fit the prophecy because he was not from their own people as Moses was.




It doesn't have Samuel's name either there, neither Jesus's name nor many other names in that verse..Do you consider individuals or you look to the content of individual's books? Is not the "divine message sent down" to that individual more important than himself?

The prophecy in the verse that you quote is not about Samuel, or Jesus, the prophecy in that verse is about the one that God promised to send, the one that would be like Moses. Neither Samuel or Jesus were like Moses. That is a fact. Prophet Isaiah also knew that 'the one' promised to Moses would be born on an Island.



Are you kidding?! ..What does skin disease have to do with a prophet's divine book? Again it seems that you seek form more than "divine content".

The fact is, that to be the one promised to Moses there is a certain criteria to fulfill for the REAL prophet, and Mo did not fulfill that criteria. So then you have to decide do you choose to support the truth of what God promised, or do you go in a different direction? The followers of Mo went into a different direction instead of understanding why Mo was rejected by the Jewish mystics and sages.

The skin disease is an important part of the criteria in the fulfillment of the Moses prophecy and Moses asked for the blessing of the burning bush to be given to Joseph not Mo or Jesus.




I think I need to remind you that the Lord of the universe is not a racist, nor is he a monopolist.

What does that have to do with the fulfillment of the criteria of the true Prophet that God predicted would come?

I recommend that you heal the 'need', 'racist', and 'monopolist'.. Seek within for the Kingdom of God. "needs' are to do with the 'inner child', I recommend 'inner child' healing work for you.



He is not fond of a specific group of people, unless of course they obey him.

Are you saying that Mo obeyed the LORD God?

A man that slaughtered people? A man that married a six year old child?

Let me tell you this Ali 'Violence disempowers the soul and vexes the Spirit of God'. from Sacred Words



But that's not the case about the history of Judaism right? He is Akhad, he doesn't need any people or a race, and he stands unique and separate by himself. Generations come and go, but his words will remain unchanged forever.

Books come to the end of their sell-by date, just like other product cycles. Religion is falling of the shelf because people are coming to know that religions are man-made. We are nearing the end of the book of Revelation, and when the end comes, humanity can move onto the next phase of the evolution of consciousness.



I could provide you with Quranic verses about the essence of Islam as a belief in wholeness of the chain of revelations. But it seems that you are rejecting the divine word of Quran as a genuine message from the Lord of the seven heavens! Thus it seems that we have to leave the judgement for this argument to the Lord of the universe himself.


I stand in integrity Ali, and Jesus told his followers to stay true to him until the end for divine purpose. I did not waiver ever. Nobody could take us off course. As it is written in Joel 2.

First you have to prove the credibility of your prophet based upon Jewish prophecies fulfilled. If you cannot do that then how can you prove that the Quran is divine word? Whose divine word exactly?

As far as wholeness is concerned it is about the being, not divine revelation.




O believers, fear God, and believe in His Messenger, and He will give you a twofold portion of His mercy; and He will appoint for you a light whereby you shall walk, and forgive you; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate;that the People of the Book may know that they have no power over anything of God's bounty, and that bounty is in the hand of God; He gives it unto whomsoever He will; and God is of bounty abounding. (57:28-29)

See above




Finally I'd like to ask if you have ever read Quran from a good translation really?

:yo:

Yes I have read some of it. However, the LORD God made sure that it was removed from my house. He sent a lady that was doing some business in Saudi, I loaned the book to her to read, and it was never returned. I also spent two years talking to Muslims, ex-Muslims, Islamic and Arab scholars about the most important issues related to it.

I also warned the lady about doing work in Saudi, the upshot was that after she did work there. She split up with her husband, her business went down, she lost her house and sports car was removed from her as well. The LORD God took everything from her. Until she had to return to the one that had helped her in the first place to heal.

Teshuvah Ali, Teshuvah



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3M6cboaOKk&feature=player_embedded

ali
03-30-2012, 09:31 AM
@Lotus feet


Yes I have read some of it.

That's why I believe till the time you manage to read the whole Quran at least once, our conversation will be fruitless!

Kindly note that this thread is not about propagandist or political issues which you have brought. For debates like this, a prior textual knowledge of the book of under discussion is a must before engagement in any conversation. Thank you.

ali
03-30-2012, 09:35 AM
@Duxrow

Perhaps you didn't notice that Torah has come years AFTER Joseph, Jacob, Isacc and Avraham !

Thus neither of these prophets were Jewish.

Lotus Feet
03-30-2012, 09:52 AM
@Lotus feet
That's why I believe till the time you manage to read the whole Quran at least once, our conversation will be fruitless!

Do you read Arabic Ali?



Kindly note that this thread is not about propagandist or political issues which you have brought.

Of course it is ali, you are not the only Muslim on the internet trying to convince people that Islam is a universal religion.
It is the latest Islamic strategy, it is non-violent and sophisticated.

I see you in the same way as I see Obama.

So can you own it?

'propagandist' 'political issues' seek within, the truth will set you free.



For debates like this, a prior textual knowledge of the book of under discussion is a must before engagement in any conversation. Thank you.

The fact is that Mo had access to some of the Judeo-Christian texts and he took spiritual concepts that he did not understand. Scholars have followed in the same way, the way of man.

First you have to experience the divine, you also have to be a healer and a mystic to understand the words delivered by a healer and a mystic.

Did you know that the Jewish prophets warned the world about Islam?

Did you know that Jesus warned his followers about Islam and the timeline?

Teshuvah

duxrow
03-30-2012, 09:56 AM
@ali

Yep, I noticed. Precepts of the Bible (Isa28) are clues in advance, so just because the Law of Moses followed the Garden of Eden by 2,000 years, doesn't prohibit clue to that "circumcision" special group. Peleg and Joktan could maybe be a type of Jew and Gentile: schoolteacher/student or old/new Covenant. Thoughts, anyone?

Lotus Feet
03-30-2012, 10:05 AM
@Duxrow

Perhaps you didn't notice that Torah has come years AFTER Joseph, Jacob, Isacc and Avraham !

Thus neither of these prophets were Jewish.

The LORD God said 'Irrevelant'.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3M6cboaOKk&feature=player_embedded