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Charisma
02-11-2012, 07:34 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRRASF6A2U0&feature=player_embedded

Timmy
02-11-2012, 07:58 AM
AWESOME !

Never before have these ears heard better explained the difference between:

the letter and the spirit
just the facts jack -vs- i love you
legalism or faith(fulness)


Timmy

Charisma
02-11-2012, 08:17 AM
AWESOME !

Never before have these ears heard better explained the difference between:

the letter and the spirit
just the facts jack -vs- i love you
legalism or faith(fulness)



Timmy
That's 'awesome' too. :specool:

Bob May
02-11-2012, 10:02 AM
Hi Guys,

Excellent!!!
Beauty!!!
Seeking the Face after catching a glympse. What a great analogy comparing it to first seeing your wife.

Bob

Timmy
02-11-2012, 10:51 AM
Hi Guys,

:icon_hello:Hi Bob!
:sBo_reflection2:
Our name is Timmy
[(for we are many):hysterical:
or do you prefer "znujeeL~"]

THEN BOB CONTINUES:
Excellent!!!
Beauty!!!
Seeking the Face after catching a glympse. What a great analogy comparing it to first seeing your wife.

Bob

Yeah, yur right!
...and that picture sticks don't it. ?

Timmy

p.s:
God grant me the a-civil turpitude to
Leave untouched the things i can change for You
To wait on You to change the things You want to
And the maddness to keep on talking OUT LOUD with You.

Ps 27:1
02-11-2012, 04:11 PM
Hi Charisma!

Please don't take this response as any type of a personal attack against you or the minister in the video. It's just that he said several things that bothered me and I knew didn't line up with the Bible and reality. Everything that any of us say, myself included, must agree with the witness of the Word.

First off, I am pretty sure that I know what he is trying to say: That Christianity is primarily about a Person and not a creed or list of dos and don'ts. And I agree completely. We've hashed this out before and that is not what my post is about.

Things that I take issue with in the video:

1) He takes the word "law" in Psalm 119:18 and replaces it with "your beauty". Whether this was intentional or not is irrelevant. Psalm 119 is primarily about the psalmist's love of and delight in God's law. They are "better than siver and gold " and "sweeter than honey". The present day dichotomy of God's law and love would have been unthinkable to this psalmist. He saw the love and beauty of God in his law. It's ironic that the minister uses this passage to segue to his next point.

2) He said, "Slavery says, 'Look you people, you need to get right with God, you need to be holy, you need to stop doing this stuff, .....if you don't, you're going to go to hell." Let's see what the bible says:

Rom 6:19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.

2Cr 6:14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 2Cr 6:17 "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you."
2Cr 7:1 Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. 2Cr 7:10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

Hbr 12:14 Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

1Pe 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.
1Pe 1:15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
1Pe 1:16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

So we see that he explicitly contradicts the word of God. And I'm to applaud this?:confused:

From reading your posts, Charisma, you seem to have a vast knowledge of scripture. How do you let this guy play fast and loose with the word of God? I get what he's trying to say, but he's going about it the wrong way.

Why do YOU think there are so many churches that are turning from the explicit word of God and embracing and or winking at homosexuality and other forms of immorality? If we let anyone define the "Love of God", then anything goes under the guise of love for God.

3) He said if we would just catch one glimpse of God's beauty, we would have no problem with the rest. "Seek his face, seek his beauty...That's it."

3a) Then he goes into the husband - wife analogy.

On the surface, this sounds wonderful. But that's just the problem. It's on the surface. Let's see what the bible and reality have to say about his perception. Again, please do not misread me. There is a lot of truth in what he is saying but he is mixing error with it as well, which leads to confusion.

Concerning his analogy:

Pro 31:30 Favour [is] deceitful, and beauty [is] vain: a woman [that] feareth the LORD, she shall be praised. (KJV)Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised. (NIV)

50 % of marriages, including "Christian", end in divorce. The problem with his analogy is that he is using a Hollywood mindset, which the bible labels as superficial, to prove a point.

Jesus, himself, describes those who aren't willing to cultivate the ground (our hearts):

Mat 13:20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and [B]at once receives it with joy.
Mat 13:21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

4) Around the 4 min mark, to me, he makes his best point. By continuing to seek God's face we will be led to greater devotion and holiness. I agree wholeheartedly. However, he doesn't make it clear how a person does that. He just says to get a greater glimpse of the beauty of Jesus Christ. Like I said before, if we let anyone define the love of God or the beauty of Jesus Christ, then those concepts will become meaningless. The word holiness will become whatever you want it be. There are so many people and churches that claim to worship God and Jesus, but they do things that are condemned in the bible. To them, "love" has become "carte blanche". Say you love Jesus and you're good to go. But what does Jesus, himself, have to say about that?

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
Mat 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

I am not accusing you or the minister of promoting lawlessness. It's just that in our present culture, the gospel has been so watered down to not offend the lost, that the holiness of God has become almost irrelevant.

Blessings,
Steve

David M
02-11-2012, 05:26 PM
Hello Charisma

I have just watched the video and I have to agree with Steve. I wish I could be as good at public speaking as the person in the video, but the truth of the message is more important than the delivery. We should not be taken in by the elequence of speech and miss the wrong interpretation of scripture. This speaker is not expounding the truth of scriptures for the reasons already mentioned by Steve.

Out of interest I looked up where it says 'seek his face' and I found two verses.
1 Chronicles 16:11 Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.
Psalm105: 4 Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.

We have to seek God's face in proper context for we are told it is impossible to see God’s face and live.
Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

The closest any one has come to seeing God's face is in Jesus which his disciple saw and that is why Jesus could say; John 14:9 he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;

The characteristics of the man that God put into the sperm that fertilized the egg in Mary's womb was such that Jesus had no form of desiable beauty. This is what Isaiah writes in his messiahanic prophecy; Isa53:2 he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.


The first thing we should seek for as told by Jesus is the kingdom of God and his righteousness. If we seek this first, then we will be brought close to Jesus and God. We will have to wait for when we come infront of Jesus at the judgement seat before we see his face.

Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

David

Charisma
02-19-2012, 05:05 PM
Hi Steve,

Thank you for such a full reply. I cannot do it justice, and, I do feel that a five minute clip from a very prolific preacher doesn't explain his fuller understanding sufficiently. He would agree with many of your points, especially about holiness.

Let me say also, that this is one preacher whose message is always moving along with the greater revelation that God has given him as he grows.

Psalm 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.


1) He takes the word "law" in Psalm 119:18 and replaces it with "your beauty". Whether this was intentional or not is irrelevant. Psalm 119 is primarily about the psalmist's love of and delight in God's law. They are "better than siver and gold " and "sweeter than honey". The present day dichotomy of God's law and love would have been unthinkable to this psalmist. He saw the love and beauty of God in his law. It's ironic that the minister uses this passage to segue to his next point.I don't think he is separating love and law, but he is separating love and legalism; that is, legalism as a method of obtaining holiness. He is right with you about the need for holiness, but he is advocating love.


1Pe 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.
1Pe 1:15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
1Pe 1:16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy." Again, I think you're missing Paul Washer's point. Peter is not advocating the application of external rules (legalism) by a n other{s) as a mean to 'encourage' holiness. Rather, he is laying the responsibility firmly on the individual to be obedient to the exhortation to be holy, with the help of the grace which God will give as they walk in the Spirit to be holy.


So we see that he explicitly contradicts the word of God. And I'm to applaud this?:confused:Again, I think you're attributing to the speaker both thoughts and declarations which he did not make in the clip, and, which I believe are not characteristic of his messages.


From reading your posts, Charisma, you seem to have a vast knowledge of scripture. How do you let this guy play fast and loose with the word of God? I get what he's trying to say, but he's going about it the wrong way.I think you need to listen to more of him - and I know you would find more to disagree with - before you finally write him off as anti-scripturist. He is one of the most unusual voices in our age, in the various ways he presents truth to the listeners. It's really important to know who he was speaking to at the time, before judging his message. I know, too, that after speaking, he hangs around for literally hours, if necessary, while individuals come to speak with him, and, he will listen, show from scripture, and pray, until those who are seeking have been born again. His expository messages are mainly on sermonaudio.com.

Here is his Ten Indictments Against the Modern Church: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7wzfvYkCW0

Here is the audio: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=17378


Why do YOU think there are so many churches that are turning from the explicit word of God and embracing and or winking at homosexuality and other forms of immorality? If we let anyone define the "Love of God", then anything goes under the guise of love for God.

3) He said if we would just catch one glimpse of God's beauty, we would have no problem with the rest. "Seek his face, seek his beauty...That's it."

3a) Then he goes into the husband - wife analogy.

On the surface, this sounds wonderful. But that's just the problem. It's on the surface. Let's see what the bible and reality have to say about his perception. Again, please do not misread me. There is a lot of truth in what he is saying but he is mixing error with it as well, which leads to confusion.Of all preachers today, Paul Washer is one of the most outspoken. He has a 'thing' about the modern church being far too like a 'six flags over Jesus'.

Two messages which deal with his concerns about the way things are going, are his address to the Deeper Conference 2008, which begains with an half hour lecture against philosophies - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shxQcczYuAA&feature=relmfu and, what has been termed his 'Shocking Youth Message', the background to which he explained, later: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrCvO8Elsis&feature=related.

(Don't let me give you the impression I agree with everything he says, but, I've heard enough to know where his heart is.)


Jesus, himself, describes those who aren't willing to cultivate the ground (our hearts):

Mat 13:20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy.
Mat 13:21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.Please watch Paul Washer's short answer on Persecution: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=92


I am not accusing you or the minister of promoting lawlessness. It's just that in our present culture, the gospel has been so watered down to not offend the lost, that the holiness of God has become almost irrelevant.Well, I hope you have time to check out some of the links I've provided, in the hope you can find some common ground with him. Thank you.

Blessings to you too.

:thpeace_dove_olive_

Charisma
02-19-2012, 05:22 PM
Hi David,

Thank you for watching the clip, and taking time to reply.

Paul Washer has many messages online both as audio and video. Despite what comes out of his mouth in many of his messages, which sounds as if he doesn't know the Bible very well, he is quite a student of it, and yet would never claim to be a scholar.

My own view of seeing the Lord's face, is that it is and it isn't what people think. Seeking the Lord = seeking His face.

But, to say that we cannot see Him now would be to deny a number of NT verses. Paul goes further: he says we 'know' Him, in 2 Cor 5.

John says: 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. (I John 3) We need both.

I think we have to accept that the Lord did 'appear' to Paul and John, and perhaps Peter also, and who knows how many other believers? We cannot be 'witnesses' unless we have 'seen' Him with the eyes of our hearts, through the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

I hope that's not too controversial a thought, in the light of what Jesus said to Thomas?

If our spiritual eyes are blind, it's true, we don't see Him. This was Paul Washer's first point: 'open my dull eyes... '

Ps 27:1
02-19-2012, 09:53 PM
Hi Steve,
........

Well, I hope you have time to check out some of the links I've provided, in the hope you can find some common ground with him. Thank you.

.......

I have gotten a greater "glimpse" of Paul Washer, and I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes. (With apologies to Job 42:6):D

Although, in my defense, your honor: Doesn't that just kinda, sorta, maybe prove my original point? :D It takes more than just a glimpse to really get to know Jesus. I think he made that loud and clear in those videos you linked. I didn't watch through all of them (more than 4 hours :eek:) but enough to get the gist, I believe. Thank you for the trouble you went through and it's always good to hear some passionate preaching.

He's singing my song when he says the gospel is cheapened when people don't understand the depravity of our human nature and the need for true repentance (which actually must also come from God Acts 5:31)

Now if he would just get rid of the pagan and RCC doctrine of immortal souls in hell and repair the breach in the wall that is the 10 commandments (Is 58 and Eze 13), then I'll be happy as a clam.:D

I definitely agree with him on that last video about persecution. So many Christians are oblivious to the demonic workings going on behind the scenes. With the whole world financially bankrupt and the rapid increase in homosexuality, I can see things getting real ugly pretty soon for those who "want to live Godly lives in Christ Jesus".

Thanks again for the videos and grace and peace to you,
Steve

David M
02-20-2012, 01:28 AM
Hi David,

Thank you for watching the clip, and taking time to reply.

Paul Washer has many messages online both as audio and videa. Despite what comes out of his mouth in many of his messages, which sounds as if he doesn't know the Bible very well, he is quite a student of it, and yet would never claim to be a scholar.

My own view of seeing the Lord's face, is that it is and it isn't what people think. Seeking the Lord = seeking His face.

But, to say that we cannot see Him now would be to deny a number of NT verses. Paul goes further: he says we 'know' Him, in 2 Cor 5.

John says: 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. (I John 3) We need both.

I think we have to accept that the Lord did 'appear' to Paul and John, and perhaps Peter also, and who knows how many other believers? We cannot be 'witnesses' unless we have 'seen' Him with the eyes of our hearts, through the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

I hope that's not too controversial a thought, in the light of what Jesus said to Thomas?

If our spiritual eyes are blind, it's true, we don't see Him. This was Paul Washer's first point: 'open my dull eyes... '

Thank you Charisma

I accept that one day I shall see the face of Jesus as I stand before him at the Judgement Seat. Paul only got to hear the voice of Jesus on the road to Damascus and he was blinded by the light. Those around him only got to hear the voice and saw no man.

God is very clear on the point that man of sinful flesh cannot see God's face and live. This is not saying man cannot see God's face physically under any circumstances; only that if he does, he will not live to tell of the experience.

I accept that in my mind's eye I can see God. God has revealed himself through His revealed Word. What is not revealed we cannot know about and what has been revealed, we have to sometimes search it out.

When Jesus said said to his disciples John 14:9 Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
I take this to mean that Jesus represented His Father to the extent that in Jesus was all the nature and character of God seen. He was a replica of God if God could have manifested himself in human form.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
I take this to mean almost the same as the above. His disciples had to come to realize that in seeing Jesus they saw how God would appear to them if God could be physically seen. I cannot physically see God and expect to live because of my nature, but that does not stop me seeing God through His Word whereby He has revealed himself.

As one of God's children which we are, this is saying we are of God ("he which is of God"). I only become a child of God by adoption Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
In this way, we look to God as our Father in Heaven as God was Heavenly Father (literally) to Jesus. At this moment in time I have not seen Jesus physically and I have not seen God physically. I have an image of Jesus in my mind, I have no physical image of God in my mind as God is Spirit. Therefore, if I could see Jesus pysically, that is as close as I can come to seeing God.

The patriarchs knew God without seeing Jesus physically. The partiarchs like Moses was given insight into a saviour that would come. God revealed himself to His people through the prophets and the scriptures that we written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (God's power). Moses and the prophets might have had encounters with Angels. At one point it is recorded that Moses was only permitted to see the hind quarters of God (when Moses was in the Mount) for not even Moses was permitted to see God's face (he would have died on the spot).

I have to be content to see God in the way that He has revealed himself to me through His Word and let His influencing spirit of His word work in me.


David

Charisma
02-20-2012, 08:36 AM
Hi Steve, :lol: Thank you for having been willing to be ameliorated by that closer look.


Although, in my defense, your honor: Doesn't that just kinda, sorta, maybe prove my original point? :D It takes more than just a glimpse to really get to know Jesus. I think he made that loud and clear...'I think the same applies in Paul Washer's defence. :D All he said was that if you could have a 'first glimpse', it makes you want to see Him again and again and again - like the first time you noticed the girl you married...

Thanks for dipping into the video clips. I knew it was too much to take in at one sitting, and, that the conversational clips are helpful, too.

It's good to find common ground with you. :pray: