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gilgal
11-14-2007, 10:03 PM
I want to dedicate this thread to the discussion of the Feasts of the Lord and how it relates to the biblewheel.

Passover:
Being the 14th day is linked to the 14th (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Nun_Passover.asp) book Hebrews

The first Passover celebrated in the land of Canaan was mentioned in Joshua. Joshua, the name of the leader of Israel is a variation of the name Jesus. The notable thing of that day was that God rolled away the reproaches of Egypt from Israel. The term roll was attributed to the location now called Gilgal.

This pattern is of course prophecy as well. On this occasion did Jesus take away our sins, while he was on the cross.

Serenity Grace
11-15-2007, 12:45 AM
Hello Gilgal,

May His peace be with you. Jesus taking away our sins, He was circumcised and pierced on the cross, and when we r truly His and He is ours, then we are pierced and circumcised in His piercings and circumcision. But it also relates to following Lord Jesus Christ into His death and ressurection to being born again, not just in the earth's witness but also the heavenly witness. That we are truly set free, from our burden's and sins forever.

Gilgal also relates because it is about 12 anointed sons coming out of the tribe of Israel, but it also relates to the Kingdom of Heaven as well. It relates to the mass redemption that is taking place at this time, and the giving up of the multutide of things and mass surrender that is coming particularly in March 2008. And it does relate to the 14th spoke on the bible wheel, but also relates to other books as well.

Our witness and experience of April 14th, is a day not only of the passover of Israel but also the day that Jesus died on the cross, but it also relates to our wedding anniversary with Lord Jesus Christ.

In 2006 April 14th was the day in easter that it lined up with the passover day for Israel first time in 2,000 years. On that day, was the day my son and I married Him in the earth's witness, in His blood stream, and it is also about bringing in of the new covenant and fulfilling that covenant for the multitude.

There was also events that came into being, and something happened, there ended up being two weddings with two brides. We ended up living the wedding that no on wanted to come to. The wedding that the King set up for His son, and everyone was just too busy to come and be a part of. It was heartbreaking. We then entered into on April 14th, 2006 a 12 day star vision and bringing forth 12 ezekiel prophecies over 12 days, which relates to the year of His righteous redemption and we also blew the prophetic horn as well as trumpet. We ended up living the year of redemption throughout 2006. What Lord Jesus Christ told me would happen at the beginning of the year, He fulfilled and gave us understanding in what it meant etc...what He would do and He does everything He says He is going to do. He did it all, brought things into alignment so we could live it. Which is effecting people now.

We also see the consequences of it now, because what we lived, also came into being with another ministery in USA, for Nashville, and another ministery in Australia ended up sending out the same call we sent out in 2005. This time many responded, to the call that took place on July 7, 2007 at 7am to 7pm and went into mass prayer and fasting to repentance for the Lord. 100,000 people turned up in Nashville, and they turned up also because He touched them in the prophetic,with many around the world also answering the call.

This call and wedding of the Lamb, also relates to the tent of the tabernacles, feast of the booths, plus the other different feasts we have lived for Him. which also will effect hanukah and thanksgiving as well as Christmas. It also led us setting up three tents in two different places one in our forest and one in our land with our burnt down house. In the forest the middle partition, the tent of the congregation collapsed under the weight of water that flowed down over us, and it was the same day I was anointed in Lord Jesus Christ's peace, which flows like a river, which the river we were near also rose, and it was at this time we were wondering whether we would be caught up in the flood or not because of the quickenign of the rising river, and no it did't flood us out. The second time we set up, our three tents have collapsed on our property all tents collapsed and still we can not go and clear them away as yet. These tents relate to the three priest hoods, the aaronic, the zadoc/levetical, and the mechelseldek.

What we lived on that day in April 14, 2006 there ended up being two marriages, that people would have a choice what lady they would be married too, Lady folly or Lady Virtue. Ezekiel 16 or Rev 21, tree of knowledge or tree of life. Which brings about either Isaiah 12, or Isaiah 13. The two covenants old or new. Those that were caught up into Ezekiel 16 and Isaiah 13, could still be saved and brought into His new covenant but it would be with much difficulty.

We ended up with Rev 21, Isaiah 12 as well as the other multitude of scriptures He has fulfilled in our lives. And gave us understanding as we learnt the prophecies and scriptures from what we lived from Him. And I also got a ring that goes with what He did for us. The ring is a small diamond in a star with 8 points on the outside, on a two fold golden band that is twisted. It is the two becoming one. But it also means Israel inside the southern cross and God's compass.

He told me that He would put the star of David inside the Southern Cross in Australia, that He would set up Israel here. On that night of our wedding, on April 14th, 2006 He did what He told me He would do, there was a star cross that appeared as well as the southern Cross that night, in that star cross was the full moon, which was like a beautiful pearl in the midst of four living stones, His righteous diamonds in our sky. The moon was so beautiful and full that night, it was a wonderful gift from Him, it was just outside our window, just over our house. It was so beautiful.

What this means is, He is reconciling Israel and Christians, reconciling feasts and bringing things into alignment into His Commonwealth, which also will effect the word of God and the alignment of scriptures with His wheel. That was the year that He completed His fulness in our lives that brought forth, the year of His redemption, the year of His righteous perfection. That many are living now.

It is also about 12 sons, there anointings that make up the Kingdom ministery of Lord Jesus Christ. Which relates to the 12 tribes in the 12 gates, and the 144,000 as well as the fruit that comes forth, and anointed parenting. During the time of our wedding we were in the middle of bringing forth and living 12 days of prayer and fasting over 12 weeks on Friday 12pm. We married Him in the week of surrender on that day at 11am, and the message is He saves and marries at the 11th hour.

Gilgal also relates to our heavenly passover lamb and this year of redemption. It is about His covering and sealing of our family in Christ. He sends out a call, those that Hear Him will follow, those that He chooses will go right to the end. And we are all coming together, our Kingdom family yay.

May His peace be with you,

Advancing Christ's Kingdom
Mother Serenity Grace
Homeheart Ministeries
His eternal love is in our home and our home is in His eternal love...John 14:20-1

Richard Amiel McGough
11-15-2007, 10:16 AM
I want to dedicate this thread to the discussion of the Feasts of the Lord and how it relates to the biblewheel.

Passover:
Being the 14th day is linked to the 14th (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Nun_Passover.asp) book Hebrews

The first Passover celebrated in the land of Canaan was mentioned in Joshua. Joshua, the name of the leader of Israel is a variation of the name Jesus. The notable thing of that day was that God rolled away the reproaches of Egypt from Israel. The term roll was attributed to the location now called Gilgal.

This pattern is of course prophecy as well. On this occasion did Jesus take away our sins, while he was on the cross.
Excellent thread Gilgal! :thumb:

Thanks for starting it.

The connection between Passover on the 14th Day and Spoke 14 is truly astounding. A similar kind of integration is seen with Pentecost on Spoke 22 aligned with the Song of Songs and Revelation. The Jewish tradition understands Pentecost as a memorial of the Giving of the Ten Commandments, which they regard as the Marriage Certificate (Ketubah). They are usually wonderful works of art like this (http://www.mnemotrix.com/frank/royal.html):

http://www.mnemotrix.com/frank/k58l.jpg

Now the thing that is so wonderful is that we have a threefold integration of structure and meaning:

The Circle of the Bible is consummated on Spoke 22.
God brought forth His Bride, the Church, at Pentecost in Acts on Spoke 22.
God prophetically revealed the union of Christ and His Bride the Church in the Song of Songs on Spoke 22.
God prophetically revealed Christ receiving His Bride the Church in Revelation on Spoke 22.Here is an illuminated "O" from the first word of the Song of Songs in the Latin Vulgate that pretty much sums up the theme of the book. The two figures in close embrace repesent Christ and His Bride, the Church:


http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Tav_Alard.gif

Christ and His Church are ONE! (See Spoke 22: The Union of Christ and His Bride (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Tav_Song.asp))

Amen!

Richard

White
11-15-2007, 04:25 PM
Hey Richard,

I just came across this new thread today and may I humbly add the following thoughts / stories :

The Circle of the Bible is consummated on Spoke 22. (see Biblewheel Medallion)

As you know I have shared much about this magic number 22:
22 Letters in the Hebrew Alphabet, Revelation 22 last book in the Bible
Song of Solomon on the 22 Spoke etc. etc.

God brought forth His Bride, the Church, at Pentecost in Acts on Spoke 22.

It was on Pentecost / actually SHAVUOT that Rabbi Goldberger from Kenesseth Israel Congregation, St. Louis Park, MN walked me personally to the exit of the Synagogue and "showed me the door", without saying a word.
What did I do? I attended their Shavuot Service (the Book of Ruth is read on that day) according to the prompting of the HOLY SPIRIT, but before I entered the Synagogue, I remembered that I was wearing a big Diamond Cross which I quickly hid in my clothing behind the neck, but some angel must haved pushed it out, because here I am standing in the Synagogue all dressed in white (on Shavuot the official color for the Synagogue is WHITE) with a white Kippah but - LORD have MERCY - a Diamond Cross which proclaims JESUS CHRIST AS LORD AND SAVIOR - My now revealed Cross was so offensive that the Rabbi HIMSELF excorted me to the door - The door that was open shall be shut and the door that was shut shall be opened...


God prophetically revealed the union of Christ and His Bride the Church in the Song of Songs on Spoke 22.

Today - 11/15/07 - I was the lay presider at OLL (Our Lady of the Lake Catholic Church) in Mound, MN and the reading was from Wisdom 7:22ff
Now Richard you know about 7/22 - how this in an important number in my walk with the LORD titled THE SPIRIT & THE BRIDE, but this is how today I connected Wisdom 7:22ff and Proverbs 8:22...:

*****

Wisdom 7:22-30 Gospel Luke 17:20-25 Psalm 119:89-91. 130, 135, 175 11/15/07 at 8 am at OLL Mound

"You know, Evangelicals really miss out when they never get to read this wonderful WISDOM chapter – Wisdom is called forth first in Proverbs 8:22 – "The LORD begot me, the firstborn of his ways, from of old I was poured forth… and so on … to verse 35 “FOR HE WHO FINDS ME FINDS LIFE and wins favor from the LORD…" almost identical to this passage today from the book of WISDOM, Chapter 7
Verse 28 : For God loves nothing so much as the man who lives with wisdom.

Wisdom has it all : intelligent, holy, unique, clear, loving the good, keen, steadfast, pure, free from anxiety… she is more beautiful than the sun and evil does not prevail against her.

I would like to look at this woman – WISDOM – as the Church. That is a perfect description of the Holy Church, which is the Bride of Christ and therefore she is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of His goodness.

In Ephesians 5:25 Paul describes the Church in these words: Christ handed himself over for the Church to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the Church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. May we – as the body of Christ and members of His Church – strive for holiness and purity of heart, mind, body and soul.

The Psalms today is from Psalm 119 – the longest Psalm of all Psalms –there are 22 letters in the Hebrew alphabet - and Psalm 119 has 176 verses, 8 x 22 letters equals 176 – which reads : I have wandered like a lost sheep; seek out your servant for I do not forget your command.


I was reflecting on that last night and I thought 8 x 22 letters, such easy numbers, and then it dawned on me, that Proverbs 8:22 is the wisdom chapter in the Jewish, Evangelical and Catholic Bible. Such symmetry in the WORD of GOD who will reconcile all things to Himself in due time.

*****

Seeing this thread today, I just had to jump in - and by the way - in 1998 I attended Seed of Abraham Messianic Jewish Congregation in Minnetonka, Rabbi Ed. A woman came up to me on my very last day at that place of worship (the Lord sent me to Shalom Scripture Studies afterwards) - and on this particular Sabbath I had my first Kosher Feast after receiving the Mikvah at Kenesseth Israel Congregation - again dressed in WHITE - 6/19/98 - and she handed me a beautiful hand written frame which - she told me - the LORD inspired her to give to me :

Monique - Advisor - Woman of Wisdom

"But the wise shall shine brightly like the splendor of the firmament and
Those who lead the many to justice shall be like the stars forever"
Daniel 12:3

To this day I treasure that beautiful Gift from this lady who was obedient to the voice of the LORD. Soon after the LORD took her also out of that Messianic Congregation and sent her to a Synagogue in Wisconsin.

May the LORD call forth HIS BRIDE and may we all be ONE united with the Bridegroom who is JESUS / Y'SHUA, the SON of the LIVING GOD.

Shalom to Jerusalem and the Holy Land
Shalom to all who follow our LORD JESUS / Y'SHUA in word and deed
Monique

Serenity Grace
11-16-2007, 10:32 AM
Hello Monique, Richard, Gilgal and our Family in Christ,


After writing in this section I wanted to withdraw, because I pick up things, that others don't normally, which effects me deeply and it is at this time Lord Jesus Christ also shares this with me. Sensitivity is a beautiful thing, but having heightened and deepened sensitivity can be at times difficult to deal with, especially while living the prophetic. But that withdrawing, always leads me to go in deeper into Lord Jesus Christ and He tells me to pursue and go through the difficulty to breakthrough, breaking through with the Lamb's patience..

Monique I know what it is like to have others to tell you to leave, but also to live with the rejection coming through those that say they Love Lord Jesus Christ and their family in Christ, but don't in Lord Jesus Christ's authenticity. People say they are wanting the bride to come forth, and the giftings and anointings, but we have experienced that a lot of people when faced with the Gospel of Christ are simply not ready to receive this let alone His bride. At times people also don't have Lord Jesus Christ's understanding, because there are times things are lost to the enemy simply because the understanding that is needed contains Lord Jesus Christ's heights and depths. Because of their rejection and non acceptance of Christ along with the Lamb's bride, which also happens to be Zion and the daughter of zion she is blessed with the Gospel of Christ in abundance. The more rejected she experiences the more blessed she becomes.

Wisdom belongs to Lady Virture, which is also Lord Jesus Christ's bride. She is not without understanding and she is a tree of life, proverbs 3 and 4 also relate to this. She has the healing for the healing of the nations and she also comes with the fruits of viture and eternal life. Those that partake of Her are blessed beyond what they can perceive. She also is the woman in Revelation 12 and she has a son, who belongs to the priesthood of Mechelseldek.

The importance of the bride living the feasts of Israel, is because she partakes and shares with what Israel has lived with and also do for the Lord. But those feasts are for a set time to come to a completion, when all the evil is taken away from the days, and the day of the Lord fully comes, which is also His day, His Kingdom comes forth,in all the fulness, perfection and completion....then it is the bringing forth of the Lord's day...Which is Christ along with His Governing body. This Governing Body also goes with Lord Jesus Christ's bride, His Wife.

Throughout the centuries, Lord Jesus Christ blesses His daughters with the Bride and wife of Christ anointing. They help to bring forth the Lamb's wife but also help keep a watch over their children. They birth and bring forth His Kingdom, but also prepare and do as required as part of the remnant flock that help bring forth the Lamb's Wife. The Lamb's wife, His bride has been preparing with Her husband, who adorns her, but truth is a lot of His people are still not ready for her, and she is still being adorned and like her husband has her difficulties to overcome. Along with the rejection of some of her children, who also when they reject her, they reject her husband Lord Jesus Christ and she shares all the sorrow, and anguish that parents go through when their children reject them.

She is also the shulamite in the Songs of Solomon, and she has come out of the wilderness leaning on her beloved. She comes with 60 bridesmaids, who are also queens and blessings in Lord Jesus Christ's garden, as well as 80 concubines along with virgins beyond count.

She is a rare flower and Her husband makes her a treasure to behold. But Zion and those that share in the daughter of Zion also come with an incurable wound. She has not been healed by those that had the means to heal her, so her husband steps in and promises the healing and recovery she needs. She also has been and has had to live as an out cast, but there is a promise for her that came through Jeremiah, a promise of recovery that Her husband fulfills and is fulfilling now...

"Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity;and they that spoil thee, shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee I will give for a prey.

For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the Lord; because they called thee an Outcast, saying this is Zion whom no man seeketh after.

Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents
and have mercy on his dwelling places; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.

And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.

Their Children also shall be as aforetime and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.

And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the Lord.

And ye shall be my people and I will be your God. Jer 30:16-22

Monique the cross you were wearing is the cross of His living stones, the cross of His righteous which He also adorns His bride, His wife and children with. It is also the cross of stumbling also for Israel and belongs to the stone that the builder's rejected was the most important stone of all.

The double 22 u r picking up along with the 44 are both significant numbers not just to the amount of books or their places in this bible wheel, but also relate to the reconciling and restoring of the Lord's Holy Temple, which also relates to His Temple that is not built by Human Hands, but is made up of His people, not just as a whole, but each one of us, Has access to His Holy Temple within us, just like His Kingdom, along with His Wife. It is the fulfilling of Lord Jesus Christ's words within our lives, but also the mainfestation of living the scriptures that they come alive, not just for the few, but for the whole, that His people have access to continually. It is the manifestation of the word of God, along with the alignment, measurement and balance, but it is also the activation of all 66 books of the word of God that fits on the bible wheel, and turns as a wheel and also a whirlwind. Which also happens to be a 12 number, which is the righteous anointed fulfillng of the word of God made manifest in the flesh and is available to all who have partaken and will come and partake.

It is time for Christ and indeed the Spirit and the Bride say Come. Come and drink of the waters of Life, and partake of the fruits of Eternal life, the fruits of Christ and His Bride, His Church, His Body, the body of Christ.

There is also a beyond knowledge, wisdom and understanding and that is Eternal Love, Joy, Peace, Life, Grace through Faith with Mercy and Truth.

May His peace be with you,

Advancing Christ's Kingdom
Homeheart Ministeries
His eternal love is in our home and our home is in His eternal love...John 14:20-1

Richard Amiel McGough
11-16-2007, 11:37 AM
*****

Wisdom 7:22-30 Gospel Luke 17:20-25 Psalm 119:89-91. 130, 135, 175 11/15/07 at 8 am at OLL Mound

"You know, Evangelicals really miss out when they never get to read this wonderful WISDOM chapter – Wisdom is called forth first in Proverbs 8:22 – "The LORD begot me, the firstborn of his ways, from of old I was poured forth… and so on … to verse 35 'FOR HE WHO FINDS ME FINDS LIFE and wins favor from the LORD…" almost identical to this passage today from the book of WISDOM, Chapter 7
Verse 28 : For God loves nothing so much as the man who lives with wisdom.

Wisdom has it all : intelligent, holy, unique, clear, loving the good, keen, steadfast, pure, free from anxiety… she is more beautiful than the sun and evil does not prevail against her.
Hey there my friend,

I wouldn't say that Evangelicals "never get to read this wonderful WISDOM chapter." We are all free to read whatever books we choose. But you are correct that most evangelicals won't bother because that book is probably not in their Bible. And that's as it should be because that book is not inspired of God. It is a Greek composition written in the old dispensation after prophecy ceased. But it certainly is a good book that should be read by Christians, just like we read other important books not found in the Bible.



I would like to look at this woman – WISDOM – as the Church. That is a perfect description of the Holy Church, which is the Bride of Christ and therefore she is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of His goodness.
Well, I certainly would stand with you in prayer that the Bride of Christ be brought into such perfection! But I find it difficult to interpret Wisdom in Proverbs 8 as the Church because "she" is described more like Christ Himself in such verses as "When he prepared the heavens, I was there" etc. - but Proverbs 8 does not really match Christ that well either. It seems more to be talking about the Wisdom of God as an abstract concept using the literary device of personification as a Woman, in which case it would be a mistake to try to identify the Wisdom as a literal figure such as the Church or Christ.



The Psalms today is from Psalm 119 – the longest Psalm of all Psalms –there are 22 letters in the Hebrew alphabet - and Psalm 119 has 176 verses, 8 x 22 letters equals 176 – which reads : I have wandered like a lost sheep; seek out your servant for I do not forget your command.
Yep - that seems profound. Its like we children of Adam have "reached the end of our rope" in Tav, and so Christ went to the ultimate end (death) on His Tav (Cross) to save us.



I was reflecting on that last night and I thought 8 x 22 letters, such easy numbers, and then it dawned on me, that Proverbs 8:22 is the wisdom chapter in the Jewish, Evangelical and Catholic Bible. Such symmetry in the WORD of GOD who will reconcile all things to Himself in due time.


That is a beautiful truth. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we Christians could see God reconciling things? Its strange how so many Christians only see God as bringing on more war, death, and destruction. It seems like a kind of obsessive fever that makes them blind to the true glory of the Gospel of Peace. The judgment of God already was poured out upon our Lord Jesus Christ when He hung on the cross. Thus the word declared in the PAST TENSE what has been done:
Colossians 1:21-22 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:



Seeing this thread today, I just had to jump in
I'm glad you did.

God bless!

Richard

gilgal
11-16-2007, 04:12 PM
I would suggest you to Google Apocrypha to understand ( if you're wondering why ) the protestant bible translators rejected it.

Even eastern Orthodox churches have rejected ( an Armenian Orthodox bishop had answered my question ). I'm confused actually whether they entirely reject it. Some individuals accept and some reject. But the reason is simply that within some of the books of Apocrypha have:

contradictions like the 2 deaths of Antiochus in Maccabees as well as the author's uncertainty of inspiration written at the end of the book;

Daniels' sorcery in Bel and the Dragon;
Judith's seduction and murder of a general.

I had read the apocrypha at the beginning of my faith. But I stand in doubt that we can use it as a guideline. I encourage you to check it out on Google as I've forgotten all that's been said.

Serenity Grace
11-20-2007, 03:30 PM
Hey there my friend,

That is a beautiful truth. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we Christians could see God reconciling things? Its strange how so many Christians only see God as bringing on more war, death, and destruction. It seems like a kind of obsessive fever that makes them blind to the true glory of the Gospel of Peace. The judgment of God already was poured out upon our Lord Jesus Christ when He hung on the cross. Thus the word declared in the PAST TENSE what has been done

Richard

Hello Richard,

people only need to open their eyes to see the Reconciling minsitery of Lord Jesus Christ in action. He does it through His people, which also make up His Bride. As He brought forth Israel through one,He still brings forth through one and that one comes forth through Lord Jesus Christ. He Chooses a Bride and Wife and she is loved, beloved, and we also can not forget the five brides that entered into the wedding of the Lamb because they had enough oil...His Bride and HIs wisdom He gave her, amazing, but there is a beyond that wisdom, which is His salvation....the Joy of Lord Jesus Christ and Him making good on His promise. Well done good and faithful servant, thou hast been faithful over the few things, I will make thee ruler over many things, enter thou into the joy of thy Lord. Matthew 25:23

But people can not receive what they can not see, and what they can not see comes forth because of something or someone they could not accept. And when this happens, they ignore, avoid or have issues about, but truth is when they do this, they do this not for their good. Because this effects the heart, mind and soul. And when they do this, they do this to Lord Jesus Christ and His body and they are one who share in the Heart, Mind and Soul of our Lord Jesus Christ. And that makes me very sad and we then surrender to Him, He then steps in and does the amazing....

Butterflies are a sign of His reconciling ministery and the promise to us, that He not only reconciles all our splits, but brings us into His born again. It is also the sign of our Heavenly Reconciler in action...that all our families in Him will be one.

A house divided against itself will not stand, a house united will stand strong in our Lord Jesus Christ and His One, amen.

Praise Lord Jesus Christ, amen

By the way beautiful pictures

Advancing Christ's Kingdom
Homeheart Ministeries
His eternal love is in our home and our home is in His eternal love...John 14:20-1

gilgal
01-02-2008, 01:08 AM
Do you think the fall feasts:
Feast of Trumpets
Yom Kippur
Feast of Tabernacles

are future fulfillments?

Richard Amiel McGough
01-02-2008, 10:06 AM
Do you think the fall feasts:
Feast of Trumpets
Yom Kippur
Feast of Tabernacles

are future fulfillments?
That's a greeeeeat question!

I don't know .... but as Don pointed out, the perfect fulfillment of the spring feasts in the coming of Christ would indicate a similar significance to the fall feasts, and tabernacles fits well with the idea of "dwelling with the Lord." So it would be "natural" to think they are still future ... unless, of course, we remember that we are the New Jerusalem and that God says we are His Temple and that He is dwelling in us now ....

So obviously, I need to think about it more. I must admit that I have not done a detailed study on the fall feasts, so I don't have a ready answer.

Richard

Rose
01-02-2008, 10:45 AM
Hi Gilgal, great question: it's something I've been thinking about for quite awhile.

Yes, it seems to me all the Feasts of the Lord were fulfilled in the first century, ending in 70 A.D.

1) The Feast of Trumpets, in the seventh month happened in Revelation with the sounding of the seven trumpets by the seven angels. That ended with the seventh angel sounding the seventh trumpet, and God declaring...It is finished!

2) The Day of Atonement "Yom Kippur" is the 10th day of the seventh month. That is when the final destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem happened in 70 A.D.. Never again can the Temple have animal sacrifices...the final Atonement was Jesus Christ.

3) The Feast of Tabernacles, is in the 15th day of the seventh month. That is fulfilled in Rev. 21 with New Jerusalem=the church....that is our new Tabernacle....we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, forever.

My conclusion is that all the Feasts of the Lord were fulfilled in the first century, starting with Jesus the Passover Lamb, His burial on Unleavened Bread, His resurrection on First Fruits, and the Holy Spirit being poured out on Pentecost. In 70 A.D. the seventh month of the last three Feasts...that is when they were fulfilled.

This is just a very brief overview, I'm still working on the details. :pop2:

Rose

kathryn
01-02-2008, 01:28 PM
Hello All....For anyone wishing to really delve into a study of the Feast Days, I would highly recommend Dr. Stephen Jone's book: The Laws of The Second Coming, available on-line at:
http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/SecondComing/Default.htm
Dr. Jones provides what is lacking in many studies on the feast days, which is an in-depth study of God's laws as they apply to the feasts.
For example, he studies the little known "Law of the Manchild" and how it applies to us, Jesus' bretheren, who are called to "raise up seed unto our elder brother." He relates the feast days to "THE pregnancy made manifest", and God's ultimate purpose in bringing forth a Corporate Son in His image. (the real meaning behind His command in Genesis 1:28: "be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it.")
quote: "The feast days are a progressive pattern, a journey from the depths of bondage and sin, to the heights of the glorious liberty of the children of God and the glorified body."
Without a doubt, Jesus fulfilled ALL of the law , but only an in-depth study of the law itself, along with the Feasts, will reveal that which was utterly fulfilled and that which was legally fulfilled at the cross. His "death work" utterly fulfilled the Spring Feasts, which in turn, provided the legal fulfillment for the "living work" to begin, in and through His Corporate Son. Without the completion of this "living work" ,I believe it can be more than adequately demonstrated that the Autumn feasts cannot be utterly fulfilled.

gilgal
01-02-2008, 02:52 PM
The pregnant woman of Revelation 12

I wonder if the if the pregnant woman is the church since Paul in Galatians said Till Christ be formed in you.

Richard Amiel McGough
01-02-2008, 03:48 PM
The pregnant woman of Revelation 12

I wonder if the if the pregnant woman is the church since Paul in Galatians said Till Christ be formed in you.
Yes, Paul did use the pregnancy metaphor (said he was "in labour until Christ be formed in us) but I don't see how that could fit with any large-scale interpretive scheme. Are you interpreting Revelation as a symbolic represenation of the struggle of each soul in their walk with Christ? How would you interpretation of the woman fit with the beast, and the rest of Revelation?

Richard

kathryn
01-02-2008, 04:50 PM
Hi Richard...Hope you don't mind me popping in before Gilgal answers:) I definately think we can look at the book of Revelation as a symbolic representation of our walk with Christ, for with the revelation of Jesus Christ also comes the revelation of ourselves....for when we shall see Him, we shall be like Him. (1 John 3:2)

Trumpet
01-02-2008, 04:53 PM
Hi Gilgal, great question: it's something I've been thinking about for quite awhile.

Yes, it seems to me all the Feasts of the Lord were fulfilled in the first century, ending in 70 A.D.

1) The Feast of Trumpets, in the seventh month happened in Revelation with the sounding of the seven trumpets by the seven angels. That ended with the seventh angel sounding the seventh trumpet, and God declaring...It is finished!

2) The Day of Atonement "Yom Kippur" is the 10th day of the seventh month. That is when the final destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem happened in 70 A.D.. Never again can the Temple have animal sacrifices...the final Atonement was Jesus Christ.

3) The Feast of Tabernacles, is in the 15th day of the seventh month. That is fulfilled in Rev. 21 with New Jerusalem=the church....that is our new Tabernacle....we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, forever.

My conclusion is that all the Feasts of the Lord were fulfilled in the first century, starting with Jesus the Passover Lamb, His burial on Unleavened Bread, His resurrection on First Fruits, and the Holy Spirit being poured out on Pentecost. In 70 A.D. the seventh month of the last three Feasts...that is when they were fulfilled.

This is just a very brief overview, I'm still working on the details. :pop2:

Rose

Hi Rose,

I've got to respectfully urge you to look a little closer at this one. First off, the Temple in AD 70 was destroyed on the 9th of Av. That roughly corresponds to two months before the Day of Atonement. It is interesting, that God allowed this to happen on exactly the same day that Solomon's Temple was destroyed by the Babylonians. It further shows how God keeps to His time sequences exactly, and this whole destruction around the time of AD 70 had to do with the total and complete end of the Jewish system, not something to do with a forward move of God, just as the destruction of Solomon's Temple was an end of a thing.

When Trumpets was instituted, in Numbers 10:1-10, the Hebrews made two silver trumpets. One was sounded to bring the elders into meeting, two were sounded for all to gather. And there were different sounds given, for alarm, war, sacrifice, etc. The Feast of Trumpets is a single trumpet sound, and I don't see any exact correlation with Revelation, just a possibility.

We are the temple of the Holy Spirit, yes, and this was instituted on Pentecost. But Paul says we only received the "earnest of the Spirit", a down payment. The body of Christ has as it's dwelling the New Jerusalem, yes, but look what Paul says in Hebrews 13:13,14; Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. 14) For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. Also let me quote Psalm 132:13-16 : For the Lord hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. 14) This is my rest forever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it. 15) I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread. 16) I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.

Paul received the "earnest of the Spirit" just like the apostles, and just like us, and he was a part of the same kingdom and New Jerusalem that we claim, yet he said he is looking forward to the one to come. I believe that this is because we have only received the partial, and the full New Jerusalem is just as real and physical as our resurrected bodies will be; in fact the New Jerusalem IS made up of our resurrected bodies. This is our final inheritance that has not yet come. And it says in Hebrews 11:16, that the Patriarchs did "desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city." and in Heb. 11:39, 40 it says that they without us should not be made perfect. So this whole resurrection thing is yet future.

I don't agree with the way many try to make the future look like the Book of Revelation "Hollywood Version", and I do agree that the plan that God had for the time period around AD70 has been prophetically fulfilled, but that's just a part of God's plan. If we try to place everything back in that time period, we are stunting our own growth, and short-circuiting any ability to see how God is working on His people right now, and the total fulfillment of all things, which would be the consumation of the ages. If we put everything in the future, we look to be a bunch of hyper thrill seekers. I think the answer lies somewhere in between.

God Bless Don

Trumpet
01-02-2008, 05:13 PM
Hi Guys,

Just a comment on Revelation. This is the "Revelation of Jesus Christ" which God gave unto him, (John). This is the revealing of Jesus to whoever reads it. It's not all about the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, although that is in the book. Just as an example; the seven churches are historical, yet each one can be depicted as problems that we have all encountered, and also a time line of churches throughout the last 2000 years can be established.

This book is about Jesus in His entirety. He's very complex. He deals with every person, every group, every country, in every time period, from Adam, to the end of it all, and if this book reveals Him, it reveals a whole lot more than a direct correlation can establish. The book is written on a two dimensional surface, but it's words contain references to the whole Word of God, some of which Richard has uncovered in the Bible Wheel. I've often wondered about the things that God is about to reveal through His Wheel that we are only scratching the surface on. And the Book of Revelation resides in the very center of that wheel, just waiting to burst forth with things of God that even the ancients desired to see, but were in the wrong time to be a part of. These things are not only revealed on a written level, but when they are joined by the Spirit, the revelation of them has the ability to fill every crack and crevise in the whole universe! We are on the verge of the Knowledge explosion spoken of by Daniel the Prophet. Amazing!!

Rose
01-02-2008, 07:37 PM
Hi Don,

Yes, you are correct. The actual day of the Temple's destruction was on the 9th of AV....but possibly the conclusion of it all, when God said: It is Done....happened on "Yom Kippur". It's hard to imagine any other event that could ever match what happened in 70 A.D., and thus fulfill the Day of Atonement.

I have a strong sense of the Former Feasts "Early Rain", and the Latter Feasts the "Latter Rain" all having a first fulfillment in the first century,separated by 40 years. Normally there is 4 months that separate these Feasts on the yearly calender (Pentecost is in the 3rd month, and Trumpets starts in the 7th month.).


The physical destruction of the earthly Jerusalem in Rev. 18: followed by the resurrection of the heavenly Jerusalem in Rev. 21: is a wonderful picture of the death of our physical earthly bodies, followed by the resurrection of a spiritual, heavenly body.

Rose

gilgal
01-02-2008, 08:31 PM
Yes, Paul did use the pregnancy metaphor (said he was "in labour until Christ be formed in us) but I don't see how that could fit with any large-scale interpretive scheme. Are you interpreting Revelation as a symbolic represenation of the struggle of each soul in their walk with Christ? How would you interpretation of the woman fit with the beast, and the rest of Revelation?

Richard

I don't know. As I read Rev 12 there are a few things not clear to me. At first John sees the sign of the woman in heaven. Then she's given wings to flee in the wilderness ( ??? ) On the other hand the dragon is originating from heaven. But then he's cast down to the ground.

Sarah is considered the new Jerusalem the mother of us all.

The woman's seed is they who keep the commandments of God.

kathryn
01-02-2008, 08:35 PM
Hi Rose...Just a reminder that it was on the Day of Atonement, that the ritual sacrifice of the two goats took place. The first goat was killed, and the second goat was released into the wilderness (to a place uninhabited), carrying the sins of the people. Both goats represent Christ...the first, a death work, the second a "living" work". This strongly suggests a two part fulfillment of the Day of Atonement....The first part, His death on the cross, which fulfilled the legal requirement for His second and complete fulfillment in bringing forth a corporate son, in His image. (as the High Priest comes forth from the temple, on the Day of Atonement)
The New Jerusalem is also referred to as our Mother. How do you see her in this capacity?

Trumpet
01-03-2008, 08:43 AM
Hi Don,


Yes, you are correct. The actual day of the Temple's destruction was on the 9th of AV....but possibly the conclusion of it all, when God said: It is Done....happened on "Yom Kippur". It's hard to imagine any other event that could ever match what happened in 70 A.D., and thus fulfill the Day of Atonement.

The Day of Atonement was the 10th day of the 7th month, 2 months and 1 day after the destruction. This was the day that the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies, offering the blood for atonement for the people. It also was the day of Jubilee on every 49th year, when everyone's debts were cancelled, and all slaves became free.
What I'm trying to bring out is that the destruction of the Temple was a very big thing, yes, but it was the physical symbol of the end of the Jewish religion. It has no relational significance with the true people of God, and the symbolism provided in the Feasts of what God is doing to move His people forward. The temple destruction was about God ending a thing.
Also, on the Day of Atonement, (Yom Kippur), The people were to humble themselves, and confess their sins. Exactly the opposite took place at the destruction of the Temple. Those people would not admit to wrong, and humility was the farthest thing from their minds.

I
have a strong sense of the Former Feasts "Early Rain", and the Latter Feasts the "Latter Rain" all having a first fulfillment in the first century,separated by 40 years. Normally there is 4 months that separate these Feasts on the yearly calender (Pentecost is in the 3rd month, and Trumpets starts in the 7th month.).


The Former and Latter Rain, (I presume spoken in Joel 2:20), is about a people repenting first, ( Joel 2:1-17), and because of this, God sending the gentle rains of the Spirit to water the earth. The Temple people never repented, and they received destruction instead of a building up. 40 years is a time of testing,(like in the wilderness). It's a combination of 5 x 8, which is grace, (5) times (8) renewal, which is what will come at the end of the test if repentance is present. The Jews had the testing, but failed the test because they didn't repent, which would have encompassed accepting Jesus as their Messiah.



The physical destruction of the earthly Jerusalem in Rev. 18: followed by the resurrection of the heavenly Jerusalem in Rev. 21: is a wonderful picture of the death of our physical earthly bodies, followed by the resurrection of a spiritual, heavenly body.

Rose


The destruction in this case could symbolize a form of death, but there's no resurrection here. It was a total end.

God bless Don

gilgal
01-04-2008, 01:12 AM
Hi Gilgal, great question: it's something I've been thinking about for quite awhile.

Yes, it seems to me all the Feasts of the Lord were fulfilled in the first century, ending in 70 A.D.

1) The Feast of Trumpets, in the seventh month happened in Revelation with the sounding of the seven trumpets by the seven angels. That ended with the seventh angel sounding the seventh trumpet, and God declaring...It is finished!

2) The Day of Atonement "Yom Kippur" is the 10th day of the seventh month. That is when the final destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem happened in 70 A.D.. Never again can the Temple have animal sacrifices...the final Atonement was Jesus Christ.

3) The Feast of Tabernacles, is in the 15th day of the seventh month. That is fulfilled in Rev. 21 with New Jerusalem=the church....that is our new Tabernacle....we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, forever.

My conclusion is that all the Feasts of the Lord were fulfilled in the first century, starting with Jesus the Passover Lamb, His burial on Unleavened Bread, His resurrection on First Fruits, and the Holy Spirit being poured out on Pentecost. In 70 A.D. the seventh month of the last three Feasts...that is when they were fulfilled.

This is just a very brief overview, I'm still working on the details. :pop2:

Rose

OK the reason of my posting this in the biblewheel section is because I want your input of how this links in the biblewheel.
For example the most obvious of the feasts is Passover:
The 14th day is of the first month is this celebrated.
Passover is mentioned in the 14th epistle Hebrews.

Rose
01-04-2008, 01:55 PM
Hi Folks, thanks for all the feedback :D



Here's some more points to ponder…were all the 7 Feasts of Israel fulfilled in Christ in the 1st century?

We know Jesus came to fulfill the whole law in Himself, and we know that the first four Feasts were fulfilled by Jesus. We also know that the Jews had to keep all the Feasts as commanded by God to Moses. Now in order for us to keep all the Feasts in Christ, He would have to had fulfilled them all in Himself when He brought in the Kingdom of God.

First: we know that Jesus is the Passover Lamb, in His death, burial, and resurrection, those three Feasts were fulfilled. Death came by sin, so as in the first Passover, the blood of the lamb was put over the doorposts of the house so the angel of death would pass over. Now Jesus has shed His blood as the final Passover Lamb…..winning the victory over death, so death passes over us.

Secondly: Jesus fulfilled the Feast of Pentecost, by pouring out the Holy Spirit upon all who are delivered by the blood of the Passover Lamb, Jesus Christ.

Now there remains three Feasts to have fulfillment in Jesus. Has He fulfilled them yet?
It seems that in order for Jesus to fulfill the whole law (which the Feasts are a part of) He would have to fulfill the last three Feasts in the same manner in which He fulfilled the first four. If He did, when did that occur? We have no problem knowing when the first four were fulfilled because it is recorded for us in the Bible, the last three are not.

The one strong point I see for their complete fulfillment in the first century, is that it seems all the Feasts need to be fulfilled in Christ in order for His work to be finished, and complete, and the Kingdom of God brought in. The pattern, and order of the Feasts was set up by God. Christ coming to fulfill in Himself those Feasts was also ordained by God. If the Kingdom of God has already been ushered in.... which marks the end, then all the Feasts would need to be fulfilled before that time.

Rose

P.S. Gilgal, in answer to your question about the Bible Wheel and the Feasts, I haven't looked into that much yet, at least in the area of the Feasts being fulfilled in the first century.

Trumpet
01-04-2008, 04:07 PM
Hi Gilgal,

I took your advice, and I started looking for relationships to the Bible Wheel. I've only got one so far, but here it is.

The feast Pentecost, is celebrated 49 days counting from the day after the Wave Sheaf Offering, (Lev. 23:15). The 49th book is Ephesians, and in Eph. 1:14, (there's the 1st month, 14th day, marking the 1st feast) we find Pentecost spoken of: 14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

It's also interesting that a pattern is there in that verse. There are 7 feasts. and the main ones are the 1st, Passover; 4th, Pentecost; and 7th, Tabernacles. The first 7 words of this verse break down loosely according to the feasts.

Which = the subject of all; Jesus - Passover

is = Jesus IS the sinless one - unleavened

the = THE Lord is who rose from the dead - Wave Sheaf Offering

earnest = what we receive of the Spirit - Pentecost

of = the trumpet calls those OF His. Feast of Trumpets

the = The humble people in Spirit that we can become through Atonement

inheritance = what we are all waiting for; the rest,(Tabernacles)
or resurrection

God Bless! Don

Trumpet
01-04-2008, 05:32 PM
Hi Rose,

I hate to keep going like this, it almost seems like I'm picking on you, but I'm not. I'm just trying to show you what I've seen. Remember, I was one who belived the pre-trib thing, then, on this forum and others, I came to realize that the 1st century holds many fulfillments that are not recognized by pre-tribbers. But as I learn more, I am finding out that the time of Jesus' life is like an axis period, and He is center stage, but the time before, and after are like the left and right sides of the stage. It's funny too, that starting at Jesus in the center, you read from Jesus to the left, as in Hebrew, taking you through the BC years, and you read from Jesus to the right, as in Greek, taking you through the AD times. So allow me to break down your post a little.


Here's some more points to ponder…were all the 7 Feasts of Israel fulfilled in Christ in the 1st century?
No they weren't: just the first three.



We know Jesus came to fulfill the whole law in Himself, and we know that the first four Feasts were fulfilled by Jesus. We also know that the Jews had to keep all the Feasts as commanded by God to Moses. Now in order for us to keep all the Feasts in Christ, He would have to had fulfilled them all in Himself when He brought in the Kingdom of God.
Jesus came to fulfill the Law. (the Ten Commandments) This he did. He didn't fulfill the feasts, only 3 of them, but He did pave the way for fulfillment of the other 4. We also don't have to keep the Feasts as law. They are a picture of what we need to progress from unbeliever to the fulness that we can obtain. The only thing needed for basic salvation is belief in the fulfillment of the first three; that is that Jesus died for us, was buried, and rose from the dead.


First: we know that Jesus is the Passover Lamb, in His death, burial, and resurrection, those three Feasts were fulfilled. Death came by sin, so as in the first Passover, the blood of the lamb was put over the doorposts of the house so the angel of death would pass over. Now Jesus has shed His blood as the final Passover Lamb…..winning the victory over death, so death passes over us.


I agree totally. This also marks the end of the Passover Age. It began with the instituting of blood sacrifice in the days of Moses, and ends with the final sacrifice Jesus.


Secondly: Jesus fulfilled the Feast of Pentecost, by pouring out the Holy Spirit upon all who are delivered by the blood of the Passover Lamb, Jesus Christ.


Jesus didn't fulfill this one. It was instituted in Moses' time, when God came down on the Mount; but the Jews then told Moses that they didn't want any part of a God that scared them. But God told those people to celebrate the Feast anyway. They could have seen more of God, but they delegated that to Moses, so he was the one receiving revelation from God. After the death and resurrection of Jesus, there was a people of humble heart, trained by Jesus, and ready and willing to receive this thing which God was willing to bestow. So they received what the old Jews refused, and the Church Age began. Once again, I need to state that this was an earnest, or downpayment of the Holy Spirit. Jesus had the fullness of the Holy Spirit while he was alive on earth, but we don't. He and the Father were one. He knew everything that the Father wanted Him to do. He had full communion with the Father through the Holy Spirit. We aren't even close to that. Now, the fulfillment of Passover will come at the end of the present Age; that is, the Church Age.


Now there remains three Feasts to have fulfillment in Jesus. Has He fulfilled them yet?
It seems that in order for Jesus to fulfill the whole law (which the Feasts are a part of) He would have to fulfill the last three Feasts in the same manner in which He fulfilled the first four. If He did, when did that occur? We have no problem knowing when the first four were fulfilled because it is recorded for us in the Bible, the last three are not.


There's 4 to go; actually 3 1/2. The first 3 1/2 were completed just like our little stage presents it. They were started in Moses' day, they are half done at center stage, and the rest is off on stage right. The last 3 1/2 are recorded in the bible, we just have to dig deep for them, and they are not found in the pre-trib/futurist scheme of things. They are divulged in intimacy with the King Himself, and they won't be shown in the open for all to understand, at least not yet.


The one strong point I see for their complete fulfillment in the first century, is that it seems all the Feasts need to be fulfilled in Christ in order for His work to be finished, and complete, and the Kingdom of God brought in. The pattern, and order of the Feasts was set up by God. Christ coming to fulfill in Himself those Feasts was also ordained by God. If the Kingdom of God has already been ushered in.... which marks the end, then all the Feasts would need to be fulfilled before that time.


The Kingdom of God was ushered in by Jesus during His life on earth. It is a Kingdom of the Spirit. And that Kingdom was passed to the 120 in the upper room on Pentecost. This makes the Kingdom available to those that want it, but only through the Spirit. The day is coming, when the earth will be filled with the knowledge and glory of God. This is the next age; the Tabernacle Age.

Let me digress just a bit...The feast of Passover contained unleavened bread. This is a representation of Jesus and His sinlessness. The next feast, Pentecost, had an offering of wheat, and they were commanded to add leaven with it. This feast began the Church Age, and the Church Age is mixed with leaven...sin. It's a picture of the people of God receiving the Word from God directly, and from men; i.e. pastors, teachers, priests, etc. These men take the Word that they receive from God, and digest it, but when they give it out, it isn't pure anymore, it becomes somewhat mixed with man's ideas. So the people of God are capable of receiving some from God, and some from God through men. But since the Holy Spirit has only been given in earnest, we as a people don't receive the complete Word. It's not anything against the church, or it's people, it's just fact. If you try to go and get everything totally from God, you fall short in many respects, because we can't hear from Him with total clearness. When we combine what we hear from teachers, along with what we learn on our own, we still come up short, but at least we can achieve a balance and check each other. The next Age to come is Tabernacles, and it holds the Resurrection.

God Bless Don

Rose
01-04-2008, 07:40 PM
Hi Rose,

I hate to keep going like this, it almost seems like I'm picking on you, but I'm not. I'm just trying to show you what I've seen. Remember, I was one who believed the pre-trib thing, then, on this forum and others, I came to realize that the 1st century holds many fulfillments that are not recognized by pre-tribbers. But as I learn more, I am finding out that the time of Jesus' life is like an axis period, and He is center stage, but the time before, and after are like the left and right sides of the stage. It's funny too, that starting at Jesus in the center, you read from Jesus to the left, as in Hebrew, taking you through the BC years, and you read from Jesus to the right, as in Greek, taking you through the AD times. So allow me to break down your post a little.

Hey Don, no worries ;)

I ask for feedback, and thats what your giving me :pop2:
I'll comment on your thoughts when I have more time.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Rose

wstruse
01-05-2008, 09:42 AM
Hello Trumpets,

In a response to Rose you said:



I've got to respectfully urge you to look a little closer at this one. First off, the Temple in AD 70 was destroyed on the 9th of Av. That roughly corresponds to two months before the Day of Atonement. It is interesting, that God allowed this to happen on exactly the same day that Solomon's Temple was destroyed by the Babylonians. It further shows how God keeps to His time sequences exactly, and this whole destruction around the time of AD 70 had to do with the total and complete end of the Jewish system, not something to do with a forward move of God, just as the destruction of Solomon's Temple was an end of a thing.

I believe you are correct regarding the end of the Jewish system or as it could be called the Times of Israel. It could be argued that 70 AD began the 'times of the Gentiles'. You mentioned that 'God keeps to His sequences exactly'. How true. In 69 AD the last 7th month sacrifices were kept. In other words the last 'Day of Atonement' sacrifices were kept in 69 AD. This date marked the 40th Jubilee from the birth of Isaac. (the promised 'seed') The 'Jewish' system in the sense of the 'covenant of the seed' lasted for exactly 40 Jubilees. Interestingly, today we are living in the 40th Jubilee from the destruction of Jerusalem.

In another related post I believe Rose mentioned the 4 months between the feast days an they might related too the 40 years between 30 AD and the 70 AD. Consider this in 30 AD Yashua (Jesus) rose from the grave. He was seen of men for 40 days. He ascended just before Pentecost. Remember before His crucifixion He warned that 'wicked generation' about the sign of Jonah. Jonahs warned Nineveh to repent or else in 40 days their destruction would come. The Jewish people did not heed Yashua’s warning, they crucified him and then 40 years later according to His warning their City and system of worship were completely destroyed.

Here is what is so amazing about this prophecy. Yashua rose from the grave and was seen for 40 days. 40 years later Jerusalem was destroyed which started the 'times of the Gentiles.' YHWH said He is no respecter of persons. There were 40 Jubilees in the 'times of Israel'. Could the 'times of the Gentiles' be the same length?

40 days > 40 years > 40 Jubilees

You could also look at the life of Moses to see a similar pattern. Moses was 40 years old when he 1st tried to deliver the children of Israel. They rejected him and he went and lived among 'another people' in the wilderness for 40 years. YHWH did not completely forget about His people. He sent Moses back 40 years later and delivered them. They again rebelled and spent 40 years wandering in the wilderness. Again YHWH delivered them only this deliverance was not accomplished under the leadership of Moses (the law). It was under the leadership of Joshua-Yashua-Jesus when the children of Israel 'crossed over' were (baptized) in the Jordan river and finally entered the promised land. To complete the picture Joshua circumsized the people. Just as Yashua (Jesus) figuratively circusised our hearts

Romans 2:29 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Anyway there might well be a picture in the span between the late and early Feast days as Rose mentioned. Only it may well be 40 jubilees. One other note for clarities sake. In the Hebrew the "early" rain fell in the fall during the 7th month feasts. The "later" rain fell in spring. It is backwards from what we would intuitively assume. This may stem from Exodus when YHWH changed the religious year to start in the spring.

4456 later "rain" = malqowsh {mal-koshe'}
Meaning: 1) latter rain, spring rain 1a) the March and April rains which mature the crops of Palestine


Regards,

William Struse

Rose
01-05-2008, 12:11 PM
Hi William, :welcome: nice to have you here.

Your post is very timely. I was just trying to find out if the last "Day of Atonement" that was kept before the Temple's destruction was a Year of Jubilee.


I believe you are correct regarding the end of the Jewish system or as it could be called the Times of Israel. It could be argued that 70 AD began the 'times of the Gentiles'. You mentioned that 'God keeps to His sequences exactly'. How true. In 69 AD the last 7th month sacrifices were kept. In other words the last 'Day of Atonement' sacrifices were kept in 69 AD. This date marked the 40th Jubilee from the birth of Isaac. (the promised 'seed') The 'Jewish' system in the sense of the 'covenant of the seed' lasted for exactly 40 Jubilees. Interestingly, today we are living in the 40th Jubilee from the destruction of Jerusalem.

If it was, what a wonderfully fitting time for it to occur. The last Jubilee when the Old Jerusalem is wiped away, and the New Jerusalem is brought in. The "Time of Israel" ended (as you phrased it), and the Church age began.

Now if the 69th year was when "Jubilee" occurred, would not the New Year have begun just before on the "Day of Trumpets" the first day of the seventh month, which is "Rosh Hashannah"? And if so then when the Temple was destroyed on the 9th of AV, that would be in the same year as Jubilee because it followed after in the month of AV, and happened in the year 70 A.D.?

That would also be another reason to think that the last three Feasts were fulfilled in the seventh month that began the year 70 A.D.. Completing all the Feasts in Christ.... which ended the Old, and began the New, where all is Fulfilled in Christ.

Rose

Trumpet
01-05-2008, 01:06 PM
Hi Rose,

We've got an oops here. 40 Jubilees after Isaacs birth is AD 114, but Isaac was not born on a Jubilee year. Jubilees are every 49 years. Some count them as 50, but the year of Jubilee is also the first year of the next set of sevens. Christian theologians often wind up placing an extra year as the year of rest in between the sets of 49 years. Just like Pentecost. It's the 50th day after the resurrection counting that Sunday, but is counted from the day AFTER the Wave Offering, which is the day AFTER Sunday. The Jubilee fell in AD 75. Before that was AD 26.

Now the other thing is, the sacrifices of the Temple, that were performed after April of AD 33, when Jesus died were of no effect. Everyone knows that the church age began at Pentecost, which was in AD 33. 40 years later was the antithesis of this, when the Jews came to a final end at Masada. It's the beginning of one thing versus God's trial period of 40 years, culminating in the final end of another thing. You keep trying, it looks to me, to make the events around AD 70 a positive thing. It wasn't. According to Josephus, the war of that time began in 66AD. The Temple came down in 70AD, and the end of the war came in AD73 at Masada. 66AD is 40 years from AD 26, which was the 80th Jubilee after Adam was created. 70AD was 40 years after Jesus began His ministry, in 30AD, and 73AD was 40 years after the Resurrection and the beginning of the Church Age. This is Positive -----Negative; Positive--------Negative; Positive-----------Negative.

If you try to force the beginning of the Church Age as being 70AD, you violate the true Pentecost beginning of the Church.You don't have a big enough crow bar to make that fit.

God Bless Don

wstruse
01-05-2008, 01:46 PM
Hello Rose,

Thank you for the warm welcome. You make a good point. It is worth noting though that the Spring Feast were fulfilled exactly, not in general and they were centered around the promised of hope and reconciliation of YHWH fulfilled through Yashua the Messiah. The feast although given to Israel to 'legally keep' were given to all mankind as 'shadows' or pictures of the Messiah to remind us of YHWH reconciliation for all mankind. While the 40 years that intervened between the Spring and Fall feasts may have a level of fulfillment in the Jewish people, the Feast were not given just for the edification of benefit of the Jews. Even the passage 'shadows of things to come' is from Paul’s epistle to Christian Gentiles not Jews. (Col. 2:17) The Feasts were given as a reminder of the promises and hope of all mankind through Yashua. Both Israel and Gentiles became one in Yashua. 70 AD did indeed end the Jewish 'legal' system of and begin the 'times of the Gentiles' based on the Spirit. The 'shadows' though are not complete until Yashua literally returns and fulfills all the promises made to 'the fathers' as well as made to the new gentile believers.

A final thought concerning the feasts and their fulfillment. The Feast of Tabernacles is so important a picture the prophet Zachariah states it will be observed by all the nations that came up and fought against Jerusalem. This passage clearly shows that the Feast of Tabernacles will be kept by all nations who rebel against the authority of YHWH.

For chronological reference Zechariah prophesied during the 2nd year of the reign of Darius son of Hystaspes in 520 BC. From that point until today this prophecy has not as yet been fulfilled either literally or by any spiritualized symbolism.

Zechariah 14:16-21 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, YHWH of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, YHWH of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith YHWH will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO YHWH; and the pots in YHWH'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto YHWH of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of YHWH of hosts.

I look forward to continuing this conversation.

Regards,

Your fellow servant in Yashua,

Wstruse

Trumpet
01-05-2008, 02:21 PM
Hi Wstruse,

I see we may have a small difference in chronology, but BC 520 being the 2nd year of Darius is on my timetable too.

God Bless Don

Richard Amiel McGough
01-05-2008, 02:29 PM
Hi Don,

This is getting interesting, so I decided to jump in here. Don't mistake my answers for those of Rose - half the reason we are happily married is probably because we don't agree on everything (just the important things :D).




Here's some more points to ponder…were all the 7 Feasts of Israel fulfilled in Christ in the 1st century?
No they weren't: just the first three.

We know Jesus came to fulfill the whole law in Himself, and we know that the first four Feasts were fulfilled by Jesus. We also know that the Jews had to keep all the Feasts as commanded by God to Moses. Now in order for us to keep all the Feasts in Christ, He would have to had fulfilled them all in Himself when He brought in the Kingdom of God.
Jesus came to fulfill the Law. (the Ten Commandments) This he did. He didn't fulfill the feasts, only 3 of them, but He did pave the way for fulfillment of the other 4. We also don't have to keep the Feasts as law. They are a picture of what we need to progress from unbeliever to the fulness that we can obtain. The only thing needed for basic salvation is belief in the fulfillment of the first three; that is that Jesus died for us, was buried, and rose from the dead.

Why do you limit the fulfillment to the Ten Commandments? Jesus fulfilled the Passover law, and He is our Sabbath, and He is our sin atonement commanded in Leviticus. I would say that He fulfilled everything commanded in the entire Torah. That seems to include the all feasts since they were all part of the Law.

But on the other hand, it seems like it would be possible that the latter feasts could still be prophetic of something He will fulfill in the future. But if so, the statement that "He fulfilled the Law" would need to be modified (something like what you suggested).



First: we know that Jesus is the Passover Lamb, in His death, burial, and resurrection, those three Feasts were fulfilled. Death came by sin, so as in the first Passover, the blood of the lamb was put over the doorposts of the house so the angel of death would pass over. Now Jesus has shed His blood as the final Passover Lamb…..winning the victory over death, so death passes over us.
I agree totally. This also marks the end of the Passover Age. It began with the instituting of blood sacrifice in the days of Moses, and ends with the final sacrifice Jesus.

And I agree totally with both of you ... but I never thought of that time period as the "Passover age" because there were lots of other laws that ruled. Indeed, the idea of the "Age of the Law" seems more apt.



Secondly: Jesus fulfilled the Feast of Pentecost, by pouring out the Holy Spirit upon all who are delivered by the blood of the Passover Lamb, Jesus Christ.
Jesus didn't fulfill this one. It was instituted in Moses' time, when God came down on the Mount; but the Jews then told Moses that they didn't want any part of a God that scared them. But God told those people to celebrate the Feast anyway. They could have seen more of God, but they delegated that to Moses, so he was the one receiving revelation from God. After the death and resurrection of Jesus, there was a people of humble heart, trained by Jesus, and ready and willing to receive this thing which God was willing to bestow. So they received what the old Jews refused, and the Church Age began.

The church age began not because of what people did or did not receive, but because of what God did. God never offered to "pour our His Spirit" on the Jews at Sinai like He did on Pentecost. They were very different events. But more to the point, it still seems that Pentecost was totally fulfilled by Christ pouring out His Spirit.


Once again, I need to state that this was an earnest, or downpayment of the Holy Spirit. Jesus had the fullness of the Holy Spirit while he was alive on earth, but we don't. He and the Father were one.

That sounds like a confusion to me. The Spirit is Himself "the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." So now you seem to be saying that we have only an earnest of the Spirit which seems to mean that we have "an earnest of the earnest of our inheritance."


He knew everything that the Father wanted Him to do. He had full communion with the Father through the Holy Spirit. We aren't even close to that. Now, the fulfillment of Passover will come at the end of the present Age; that is, the Church Age.

I agree that our relationship to God is not "even close" to that enjoyed by Christ in the days of His flesh, but on the other hand, there are many Scritpures that speak of being "filled" with the Holy Spirit, and since we are SEALED with the Spriit there is a strong sense of "completeness" and fulness associated.

But more importantly, I see nothing to suggest that Christ did not fully fulfill the meaning of Pentecost in the first century.



Now there remains three Feasts to have fulfillment in Jesus. Has He fulfilled them yet?
It seems that in order for Jesus to fulfill the whole law (which the Feasts are a part of) He would have to fulfill the last three Feasts in the same manner in which He fulfilled the first four. If He did, when did that occur? We have no problem knowing when the first four were fulfilled because it is recorded for us in the Bible, the last three are not.
There's 4 to go; actually 3 1/2. The first 3 1/2 were completed just like our little stage presents it. They were started in Moses' day, they are half done at center stage, and the rest is off on stage right. The last 3 1/2 are recorded in the bible, we just have to dig deep for them, and they are not found in the pre-trib/futurist scheme of things. They are divulged in intimacy with the King Himself, and they won't be shown in the open for all to understand, at least not yet.

Are you saying they are something that can not actaully be proven true or false from the Bible?


The Kingdom of God was ushered in by Jesus during His life on earth. It is a Kingdom of the Spirit. And that Kingdom was passed to the 120 in the upper room on Pentecost. This makes the Kingdom available to those that want it, but only through the Spirit. The day is coming, when the earth will be filled with the knowledge and glory of God. This is the next age; the Tabernacle Age.

Ahh .. now that's very interesting. I'd like to learn more of what you believe on this. Is the "Tabernacle Age" linked with the Millennium?


Let me digress just a bit...The feast of Passover contained unleavened bread. This is a representation of Jesus and His sinlessness. The next feast, Pentecost, had an offering of wheat, and they were commanded to add leaven with it. This feast began the Church Age, and the Church Age is mixed with leaven...sin.

That all makes perfect sense, and I agree completely, except for the idea that leaven necessarily represents sin in every instance. In this case, it looks to me that leaven represents Gentiles rather than sin.


It's a picture of the people of God receiving the Word from God directly, and from men; i.e. pastors, teachers, priests, etc. These men take the Word that they receive from God, and digest it, but when they give it out, it isn't pure anymore, it becomes somewhat mixed with man's ideas. So the people of God are capable of receiving some from God, and some from God through men. But since the Holy Spirit has only been given in earnest, we as a people don't receive the complete Word. It's not anything against the church, or it's people, it's just fact. If you try to go and get everything totally from God, you fall short in many respects, because we can't hear from Him with total clearness. When we combine what we hear from teachers, along with what we learn on our own, we still come up short, but at least we can achieve a balance and check each other. The next Age to come is Tabernacles, and it holds the Resurrection.

God Bless Don
I see what you are getting at ... and I pretty much agree but will have to see how it plays out more.

Good post Don, with many interesting ideas. :thumb:

Thanks!

Richard

wstruse
01-05-2008, 02:50 PM
Hello Don,

You are absolutely correct about the Jubilees being counted every 49 years. Not only does the Scripture indicate this, but all the available historical references indicate this as well. The Jubilee and the Sabbath (year) cycles were synchronized. My Jubilee cycle calculations are based on the year of the creation of Adam (Y.C.). In the next post I will provide the dates in both Y.C. and BC/AD for your review. Also provided are the biblical references and the important calculations. Not only are my Jubilee calculations based on the 0 date from the creation of Adam. They are synchronized with several Sabbath cycles given in the Scripture as well. They are also closely synchronized with Rabbinic and Maccabaen tradition.

A few additional thoughts on the birth of Isaac. In Gen. 18:13-14 YHWH tells Abraham that at the “set time” he would return and Sarah would have a son. Abraham was 99 years old when he received this promise. (his 2nd Jubilee) The phrase “appointed time” is Mow’ed. The same word used to describe the Feasts of YHWH. Right on schedule Isaac was born on the Mow’ed. This date marked the end of the 43rd and beginning of the 44th Jubilee from the Creation of Adam. (Y.C.) Also worth noting is that Abraham was born during the 41st Jubilee, Yashua was born during the 82nd Jubilee (41x2) and the 123rd Jubilee (41x3) ends in 2029 AD. This date is also the 40th Jubilee from the Destruction of Jerusalem. As well as end of the 2000 years from Yashua’s ministry. We are living in the 123rd Jubilee right now. For what it is worth the 144th Jubilee begins on the 7008th year from the creation of Adam. Which is the 1001st Sabbath cycle from the same. This would be our modern year of 3008.75 AD.


Genesis 18:13-14 13 And YHWH said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? 14 Is any thing too hard for YHWH? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.


Regards,

Wstruse

wstruse
01-05-2008, 02:54 PM
http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/Chronology1.gif

wstruse
01-05-2008, 03:39 PM
Don,


Hi Wstruse,

I see we may have a small difference in chronology, but BC 520 being the 2nd year of Darius is on my timetable too.

God Bless Don

You might find this interesting. According to the chronology calculations posted above 520 BC was the end of the 71st Jubilee and the start of the 72nd Jubilee from creation. Both Haggai and Zechariah prophecied the word of YHWH giving the Divine command to "restore and build" the temple and Jerusalem on this date.

Also interesting was that the 70 "weeks" of Daniel were proceeded by 70 year of Divine anger, which were proceeded by 70 Jubilee from Adam.

70 Jubilees>70 Years > 70 "weeks" = Messiah = 40 days > 40 Years > 40 Jubilees.

Richard Amiel McGough
01-05-2008, 04:21 PM
I'm confused by the following pair of quotes:



We've got an oops here. 40 Jubilees after Isaacs birth is AD 114, but Isaac was not born on a Jubilee year. Jubilees are every 49 years. Some count them as 50, but the year of Jubilee is also the first year of the next set of sevens. Christian theologians often wind up placing an extra year as the year of rest in between the sets of 49 years. Just like Pentecost. It's the 50th day after the resurrection counting that Sunday, but is counted from the day AFTER the Wave Offering, which is the day AFTER Sunday. The Jubilee fell in AD 75. Before that was AD 26.


Hello Don,

You are absolutely correct about the Jubilees being counted every 49 years. Not only does the Scripture indicate this, but all the available historical references indicate this as well.


How does this cohere with the Biblical definition of the Jubile as the "fiftieth year?"
Leviticus 25:10-12 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family. 11 A jubile shall that fiftieth year be unto you: ye shall not sow, neither reap that which groweth of itself in it, nor gather the grapes in it of thy vine undressed. 12 For it is the jubile; it shall be holy unto you: ye shall eat the increase thereof out of the field.
Thanks guys.

Richard

wstruse
01-05-2008, 05:43 PM
Ram,

Here is Leviticus 25. Especially notice verse 20 and on. It clarifies a possible concern of what is to be eaten in the 8th year and shows that the blessing was to last until the 9th. I have included a table showing how it works. During the Jubilee year they were not allowed to sow or reap that which "grows of itself". (that years harvest) It seems they may have been allowed to sow in the 8th year but from the "old store". If the Jubilee and Sabbath years were not synchronized then you would have some years were the Jubilee would fall during some of the other years of the Sabbath cycle which would cause a violation of the Sabbath cycle. Also note if the Jubilee and the Sabbath cycle were not synchronized there would have been no need to mention a 8th and 9th year in Lev. 25. If you would like more evidence I can show you both Scriptural and historical examples of the Sabbath year cycle that show it was continuous.

Regards,

Wstruse


Leviticus 25:9 - 26:1 9 Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land. 10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family. 11 A jubile shall that fiftieth year be unto you: ye shall not sow, neither reap that which groweth of itself in it, nor gather the grapes in it of thy vine undressed. 12 For it is the jubile; it shall be holy unto you: ye shall eat the increase thereof out of the field. 13 In the year of this jubile ye shall return every man unto his possession. 14 And if thou sell ought unto thy neighbour, or buyest ought of thy neighbour's hand, ye shall not oppress one another: 15 According to the number of years after the jubile thou shalt buy of thy neighbour, and according unto the number of years of the fruits he shall sell unto thee: 16 …………………………….20 And if ye shall say, What shall we eat the seventh year? behold, we shall not sow, nor gather in our increase: 21 Then I will command my blessing upon you in the sixth year, and it shall bring forth fruit for three years. 22 And ye shall sow the eighth year, and eat yet of old fruit until the ninth year; until her fruits come in ye shall eat of the old store.

wstruse
01-05-2008, 05:44 PM
http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/jubilee&sabbath.gif

gilgal
01-05-2008, 06:15 PM
Isaac seems to be the 21st generation from Adam.
Adam to Noah are 10 generations ( Genesis 5 ).
Shem to Abram are 10 generations.

Isaac means laughter. Doesn't spoke 21 involve laughter?

Richard Amiel McGough
01-05-2008, 08:11 PM
Ram,

Here is Leviticus 25. Especially notice verse 20 and on. It clarifies a possible concern of what is to be eaten in the 8th year and shows that the blessing was to last until the 9th. I have included a table showing how it works. During the Jubilee year they were not allowed to sow or reap that which "grows of itself". (that years harvest) It seems they may have been allowed to sow in the 8th year but from the "old store". If the Jubilee and Sabbath years were not synchronized then you would have some years were the Jubilee would fall during some of the other years of the Sabbath cycle which would cause a violation of the Sabbath cycle. Also note if the Jubilee and the Sabbath cycle were not synchronized there would have been no need to mention a 8th and 9th year in Lev. 25. If you would like more evidence I can show you both Scriptural and historical examples of the Sabbath year cycle that show it was continuous.

Regards,

Wstruse


Leviticus 25:9 - 26:1 9 Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land. 10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family. 11 A jubile shall that fiftieth year be unto you: ye shall not sow, neither reap that which groweth of itself in it, nor gather the grapes in it of thy vine undressed. 12 For it is the jubile; it shall be holy unto you: ye shall eat the increase thereof out of the field. 13 In the year of this jubile ye shall return every man unto his possession. 14 And if thou sell ought unto thy neighbour, or buyest ought of thy neighbour's hand, ye shall not oppress one another: 15 According to the number of years after the jubile thou shalt buy of thy neighbour, and according unto the number of years of the fruits he shall sell unto thee: 16 …………………………….20 And if ye shall say, What shall we eat the seventh year? behold, we shall not sow, nor gather in our increase: 21 Then I will command my blessing upon you in the sixth year, and it shall bring forth fruit for three years. 22 And ye shall sow the eighth year, and eat yet of old fruit until the ninth year; until her fruits come in ye shall eat of the old store.
Thanks Wstruse,

Thanks for the excellent graphic. I was guessing that you were identifying the 50th year with the first year of the next Jubile cycle. But this seems to lead to a direct contradiction since 50th year (when sowing was forbidden) then coincides with the 8th year of the sabbath cycle (when sowing was commanded).

How do you understand this?

Blessings!

Richard

wstruse
01-06-2008, 12:38 AM
Ram,

Let me apologize up front here for what may be a lengthy post. I will try to be as brief as possible and still make some sense.

1st I will start with the Sabbath cycle. According to Lev. 25 there is no indication that it is interrupted. After 6 years of sowing and reaping the land there is one year of rest. Since this law came 1st it would seem to take precedence. Next on top of the Sabbath cycle a Jubilee cycle is laid. Notice the language of verse 8 they were to number 7 Sabbaths of years or in other words 7 Sabbath cycles equaling 49 years. After this came the 50th year. Granted it does not say the 50th year fell in the 1st year of the new Sabbath cycle but the only other choice is for the Jubilee to interrupt the Sabbath cycle. This would mean that after every 7 Sabbath cycles there was one extra year (50th) after which a new 7 year cycle started. A legitimate question should be asked here. Did YHWH make a continuous 7 day cycle of 6 days labor followed by one day of rest. If the daily cycle is uninterrupted then it would be reasonably congruent for the 7 year cycle to be the same. (On a secondary line of thought I can prove form the Scripture that in fact the 7 year cycle is continuous and uninterrupted)

This brings us back to your question. If the Jubilee is in fact synchronized with the Sabbath cycle then why does there seem to be a contradiction? I believe the answer may lie in fact that it states in verse 11 that ' ye shall not sow, neither reap that which groweth of itself in it,' The prohibition of sowing and reaping in the 50th year is specific to 'that which growth of itself.'

Setting that argument aside notice in verse 6&7 that it states the 'increase' of the land was to be meat during the Sabbath year. This word 'increase' is the Hebrew word tebuw'ah it means produce or revenue. They were to eat the tebuw’ah during the Sabbath year.

Now look at the verse 12. Speaking concerning the Jubilee it sates the tebuw’ah was what they were to eat during the Jubilee year as well. Okay so were exactly does this tebuw’ah come from. This is clarified in verse 21&22. YHWH commanded His blessing on the land in the 6th year and it would produce food for 3 years. It specifically states that this blessing is the 'old fruit'. Unfortunately the translators did not translate the word 'fruit' as they did in the other verses. The word 'fruit' here is the same tebuw’ah of the Sabbath in verses 6&7 and the same tebuw’ah of the Jubilee in verse 12. So it was the 'increase' or tebuw’ah blessing in the 6th year that was to be saved and eaten for 3 years.

Leviticus 25:20-22 20 And if ye shall say, What shall we eat the seventh year? behold, we shall not sow, nor gather in our increase: 21 Then I will command my blessing upon you in the sixth year, and it shall bring forth fruit for three years. 22 And ye shall sow the eighth year, and eat yet of old fruit until the ninth year; until her fruits come in ye shall eat of the old store.

It is interesting to note that if they were obedient YHWH would have blessed them for 3 years every Sabbath cycle even if the Jubilee only came every 7th cycle. I would also grant you here that sowing in the 8th year mentioned may in fact be overridden by Jubilee prohibition against sowing. But I believe it is more likely that they were allowed to sow in the later part of the eight year, not from the produce of the 50th year, but from the tebuw’ah or 'increase' of the 6th year or as it is called in verse 22 the 'old store'.

wstruse
01-06-2008, 01:04 AM
As I am sure you have seen in the Scripture the 1st usage of a word sometimes has added weight. In this case it is most amazing to note the first usage of the word Jubilee or the Hebrew Yowbel. In Exodus 9:13 we find the first usage of the word yowbel or Jubilee. YHWH commanded the children of Israel to be ready against the 3rd day 'when the trumpet (yowbel) soundeth long'. This 3rd day is when YHWH shouted out the 10 commandments. This was before Moses was given these laws on tables of stone.

Exodus 19:13 13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.

Now it is curious that the 1st usage of the word yowbel is found here at the giving of the law at Sinai. Curious or not it was no accident. For further clarification we have to back up to Exodus 16 and the 15th day of the 2nd month. This day Israel murmured because they didn’t have much food. YHWH told them that they would have manna the next morning and that they could gather it for 6 days but not on the Sabbath. This then allows us to synchronized the monthly calendar with the Sabbath cycle. I will provide a table to explain it fully but in short it shows that when YHWH gave the law at Sinai when the yowbel or Jubilee trumpet sounded it was the 50th day from the Sabbath following the Exodus. The 1st Jubilee then was a Jubilee of days synchronized to the Sabbath cycle of days. How appropriate the Jubilee (of days) gave us the law. Then a about 1500 years later a Jubilee (of days) gave us the Spirit where the law was written on 'fleshy tables of the heart.' It makes one wonder about the ultimate fulfillment of the Jubilee of years.

Regards,

Wstruse

wstruse
01-06-2008, 01:20 AM
http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/1st_Jubilee.gif

gilgal
01-06-2008, 02:31 AM
Does Genesis 14 have anything to do with the coming feasts of the LORD? Genesis 14 happens before passover is introduced in the bible.

But the names like Chedorlaomer, hand full of sheaves make me wonder.

Richard Amiel McGough
01-06-2008, 09:53 AM
As I am sure you have seen in the Scripture the 1st usage of a word sometimes has added weight. In this case it is most amazing to note the first usage of the word Jubilee or the Hebrew Yowbel. In Exodus 9:13 we find the first usage of the word yowbel or Jubilee. YHWH commanded the children of Israel to be ready against the 3rd day 'when the trumpet (yowbel) soundeth long'. This 3rd day is when YHWH shouted out the 10 commandments. This was before Moses was given these laws on tables of stone.

Exodus 19:13 13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.

Now it is curious that the 1st usage of the word yowbel is found here at the giving of the law at Sinai. Curious or not it was no accident. For further clarification we have to back up to Exodus 16 and the 15th day of the 2nd month. This day Israel murmured because they didn’t have much food. YHWH told them that they would have manna the next morning and that they could gather it for 6 days but not on the Sabbath. This then allows us to synchronized the monthly calendar with the Sabbath cycle. I will provide a table to explain it fully but in short it shows that when YHWH gave the law at Sinai when the yowbel or Jubilee trumpet sounded it was the 50th day from the Sabbath following the Exodus. The 1st Jubilee then was a Jubilee of days synchronized to the Sabbath cycle of days. How appropriate the Jubilee (of days) gave us the law. Then a about 1500 years later a Jubilee (of days) gave us the Spirit where the law was written on 'fleshy tables of the heart.' It makes one wonder about the ultimate fulfillment of the Jubilee of years.

Regards,

Wstruse
Yes, I am convinced the the "Principle of First Occurrence" is generally valid. You might find my table (http://www.biblewheel.com/Topics/FirstOcc_IsaGen.asp) of coordinated first occurrences in Genesis and Isaiah of interest. The example you give is very powerful because it connects the first occurrence of Yovel with the 50th Day (Pentecost in Greek) with the 50th year of Jubile. This also confirms the Jewish traditional date for the Giving of the Law. Excellent insight. Thanks! :thumb:

Now as for the other issue - I am not satisfied with our understanding of that contradiction. I've read some of the "egghead" commentaries and the only thing they prove is that everyone is confused about the exact details of Jubile beyond the first. The written law that we have received in the Bible seems insufficient to settle this issue, so I feel its very shaky ground to build anything upon.

So my question now is this - are you using the Jubile count to come to any important conclusions? I very much appreciate the symbolic meaning of the 50th year (Liberty) and 50th day (Pentecost), but I don't feel that we have sufficient information to make any precise statements about when the Jubiles actually happened in history. For example, as I was researching this I found a mention of Josephus who had documented the Sabbatical years over a period of 126 years, but made no mention of the Jubile. It seems like this whole topic is pretty well shrouded in mist right now.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
01-06-2008, 10:49 AM
While discussing the problem of the 50th year being the 8th year in the Sabbatical cycle, I realized that we will have a contradiction no matter what system of counting is adopted. This is because the alternative system which begins counting the new Jubile cycle in the 51st year would cause the Jubile to coincide with the 8th year once evey seven Jubilee cycles. Thus, it seems most likely that the Jubile law would override the 8th year sabbatical law.

Richard

wstruse
01-06-2008, 01:33 PM
Richard,

You make a valid point in your last post. No matter which system you use to count the Jubilee you will have an apparent contradiction regarding the 8th day. I will try to post more on the Scriptural evidence or lack thereof for the Jubilee in a little while.


Regards,

Wstruse

Richard Amiel McGough
01-06-2008, 03:28 PM
Richard,

You make a valid point in your last post. No matter which system you use to count the Jubilee you will have an apparent contradiction regarding the 8th day. I will try to post more on the Scriptural evidence or lack thereof for the Jubilee in a little while.


Regards,

Wstruse
Great, I look forward to learning more. I am particularly curious about how much solid evidence there is for the actual dates when the Jubile was celebrated.

Richard

wstruse
01-06-2008, 04:51 PM
Richard,

I will be right up front about the Jubilee and state there is absolutely no statement in the Scripture which shows a Jubilee was celebrated in the ____ year. There are only two place that I know of where scholars speculate there might have been a Jubilee. Not very encouraging is it? Before I get to the Jubilee we should establish the Sabbath cycles. If we can establish the Sabbath cycles then we can eliminate 42 of the 50 other dates for the Jubilee. (since they are synchronized)

I tried to post my master chronology table in a gif. It is so detailed that it will not post well. So I have to give you a PDF file link. You can view the PDF here: www.countdowntothemessiah.com/2nd_Temple_Era_Chronology.pdf A couple of notes about the chronological table. You will find that this table has the A.U.C., Olympiad, Historic, Modern and Y.C. years. All ancient Babylonian and Persian years began in the the spring at the same time as the Hebrew years. (i.e. Nisan) The Y.C. year (year of Adams creation) is relative to the Fall or the month Tishri. The Sabbath and Jubilee cycles are all Y.C. basis.

First the Sabbath cycles.

One of the most definite Sabbaths cycles mentioned in the Scripture is when Zedekiah agreed to let the Hebrew slaves go free. This was done according to the law in the Sabbath year. According Jeremiah 34 Zedekiah had agreed to let the Hebrew slaves go free in the Sabbath year but then he had broken his promised. In short the 7th year was the 10th year of Zedekiah.

Another Sabbath year was when the Law was read by Ezra to the people in the 21st year of 'Artaxerxes' . This was when Nehemiah’s governorship started. According to the law of Moses the law was to be read in the 7th month in the Sabbath year. (Deu. 31)
Now this is quite a bit more difficult to prove because most people erroneously believe that this 'Artaxerxes' is Aartaxerxes Longimanus in 464 BC. The details to prove this 'Artaxerxes' was not Artaxerxes Longimanus are more than I can place hear. If you would like to see the proof for this you can access the PDF file here:
http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/70WeeksCountdown/Countdown_to_the_Messiah__Daniel's_Seventy_Weeks__ Chronology_of_a_Captive_People.pdf


On the above mentioned chronological table you find list all of the Rabbinic claims for the Sabbath and Jubilee cycles. There is some debate among the Rabbis as to what was meant by the Hebrew phrase 'closing of the Sabbath year'. Anyway there is about a 1 year disagreement among them as to it calculation. Anyway as you will see most every one of there dated Sabbath or Jubilees falls within 1 year of a Jubilee or Sabbath dated relative to the Scriptural record. By the way the Rabbinic sources are given in italic red on the table.


Now to the Jubilee.

The most popular dating of the Jubilee is based on Isaiah 37:30 and the 14th year of Hezekiah. I do not believe Isaiah 37:30 is speaking about a Jubilee. This is because it contracts the Jubilee instructions of Lev. 25. As a additional check the 14th year of Hezekiah does not seem to fit the Sabbath cycles based on the dates as shown in the table above.

Isaiah 37:30 30 And this shall be a sign unto thee, Ye shall eat this year such as groweth of itself; and the second year that which springeth of the same: and in the third year sow ye, and reap, and plant vineyards, and eat the fruit thereof.

There is one additional possibility concerning the Jubilee in the scripture. It is given in Ezekiel 1:1-2. Here Ezekiel gives the 30th year of some undefined period of time. We know from both the Scriptural and Historical record that no Babylonian, Perisan or Hebrew Kings had 30 year reigns anywhere close to this time frame. Some claim this might be the 30th year of Ezekiel. This does not seem likely either because birthdays where considered pagan practices at that time. The only other likely period of time could be the 30 year of the Jubilee cycle. Not conclusive but possible. To see if it is possible we must overlay it on the Sabbath cycle. In the table above you will find the 30th year relative to the 5th year of Jehoiachin’s captivity. As you will see it makes a perfect match with the Sabbath cycle. When I 1st found this information I was investigating the chronology of the 2nd temple era. I decided to extrapolate this Jubilee and Sabbath cycles backwards and I found to my surprise that it gave a 0 date at the creation of Adam.

Ezekiel 1:1-2 KJV Ezekiel 1:1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God. 2 In the fifth day of the month, which was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity,


I have more but I think with this basic introduction and the Table above you can come to your own conclusions. If you are interested in the sources showed on the Table above I can e-mail you my original Excel file. I have copied all the sources so that when you hold your mouse over the reference the entire quote will pop up. If you have any additional question or criticism, I look forward to continuing this discussion.


Regards,

Your fellow servant in Yashua,

Wstruse

Brother Les
01-08-2008, 11:21 AM
#1 11-15-2007, 01:03 AM
gilgal
Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 253

The feasts of the Lord and the biblewheel

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I want to dedicate this thread to the discussion of the Feasts of the Lord and how it relates to the biblewheel.

Passover:
Being the 14th day is linked to the 14th book Hebrews

The first Passover celebrated in the land of Canaan was mentioned in Joshua. Joshua, the name of the leader of Israel is a variation of the name Jesus. The notable thing of that day was that God rolled away the reproaches of Egypt from Israel. The term roll was attributed to the location now called Gilgal.

This pattern is of course prophecy as well. On this occasion did Jesus take away our sins, while he was on the cross.


Jos 5:7 And their children, [whom] he raised up in their stead, them Joshua circumcised: for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them by the way.


Jos 5:8 And it came to pass, when they had done circumcising all the people, that they abode in their places in the camp, till they were whole.


Jos 5:9 And the LORD said unto Joshua, This day have I rolled away the reproach of Egypt from off you. Wherefore the name of the place is called Gilgal unto this day.


Jos 5:10 ¶ And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.


Jos 5:11 And they did eat of the old corn of the land on the morrow after the passover, unleavened cakes, and parched [corn] in the selfsame day.


Jos 5:12 And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year.


The term roll was attributed to the location now called Gilgal.


'To 'Roll' the Reproach of Egypt off you', is not refering to 'a' place (Gilgal) It is refering to 'a' 'system', 'culture', 'life', 'wants'....The Egyptian 'passed' is finally gone.....'The People' 'cried' for 'their' 'love' of Egypt all the time they were in the wilderness. 'Those People' 'died' and their children recieved, 'The Promise of a new 'cutlure', 'life','GOD', ect...


Brother Les

Brother Les
01-08-2008, 11:39 AM
Leviticus 23



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We are studying the "Feasts of the Lord" found in Leviticus 23. The study of the feasts is a study in typology. Typological hermeneutics involves explicating signs in the Old Testament as foreshadowing events and people in the New. These seven feasts represent and typify the sequence, timing, and significance of the major events of the Lord's redemptive history. They commence at Calvary, where Jesus voluntarily gave Himself for the sins of the world (Passover), and climax at the consummation of the Messianic Kingdom at the Lord's second coming (Tabernacles). These seven feasts depict the entire redemptive career of the Messiah.
We have studied the four spring feasts to this point - Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits and Pentecost. These four feasts were a prophetic foreshadowing of the first coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. They spoke of His death, burial, perfect sinless life, resurrection, and the advent of the New Covenant.

The remaining three feasts we will study will be the fall feasts, which were a prophetic foreshadowing of the second coming of Christ. The Feast of Trumpets, the Day of Atonement, and the Feast of Tabernacles started about 4 months after the end of the spring festivals. All three of these feasts took place in Tishri, or September. These three feasts speak of the resurrection, the consummation of redemption after the outpouring of God's wrath, and the New Heaven and Earth, which is typified by the Feast of Tabernacles.

To show you how important the whole concept of the feasts are, look at the words Jesus uses on his way to the cross. He is talking in language that sounds like agricultural Jewish language:

Luke 23:31 (NKJV) "For if they do these things in the green wood, what will be done in the dry?"
The dry tree is the very end of Old Covenant Israel. All the harvest is in, and the trees are dry; it is the end of the age.

Between Pentecost and Tabernacles there was an interval of time of about 4 months. These months in between were historically the driest months of the year for Israel. There were no holy convocations - when the nation gathered before the Lord and His sanctuary.

This gap can be seen as being as prophetic in a negative way, just as the rest of the feasts are positively prophetic. The newly redeemed nation of Israel experienced Passover through Pentecost - from leaving Egypt, their place of bondage, up to receiving the covenant from God at Sinai. However, through unbelief and stubbornness (except for Joshua and Caleb), they wandered in the wilderness for forty years, and it was a different generation that entered the Promised Land and celebrated Tabernacles. Thus this four month gap can be seen to be a reminder of this forty years.

This is written by David Curtis from his sermons on 'The Feasts of The Lord'.

Brother Les
01-08-2008, 11:41 AM
---------posted by Kathryn----

Hi Rose...Just a reminder that it was on the Day of Atonement, that the ritual sacrifice of the two goats took place. The first goat was killed, and the second goat was released into the wilderness (to a place uninhabited), carrying the sins of the people. Both goats represent Christ...the first, a death work, the second a "living" work". This strongly suggests a two part fulfillment of the Day of Atonement....The first part, His death on the cross, which fulfilled the legal requirement for His second and complete fulfillment in bringing forth a corporate son, in His image. (as the High Priest comes forth from the temple, on the Day of Atonement)
The New Jerusalem is also referred to as our Mother. How do you see her in this capacity?

Pilate, at the choosing of The High Priest, had two men standing with him. Jesus:
Jesus = "Jehovah is salvation"
(stongs2424)
1) Jesus, the Son of God, the Saviour of mankind, God incarnate

2) Jesus Barabbas was the captive robber whom the Jews begged Pilate to release instead of Christ

NOTE: You should note that Jesus and "Jesus Bar-Abbas" are under the same Strongs number!!! Types and Anti-typesand Barabbas
(strongs 912)
Barabbas = "son of a father or master"

Do you 'see' that Jesus Christ ....Joshua Messiah
and Bar-Abbas.....Son of The Master

ARE THE TWO GOATS....



and at the 'end of The Age' it is 'Israel' that are the two goats...

Israel of The Flesh (Worldly)
Israel of The Promise (Spiritual)


ALL of The Feasts have been Fulfilled....it is just our lack of 'understanding'


Brother Les

kathryn
01-08-2008, 02:25 PM
Hi Les....Israel of the flesh could never be represented as a "type" of sacrifice, as all sacrifices to God had to be without spot or blemish. ALL the sacrifices represent THE sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and depict the various aspects of what His sacrifice accomplished at the Cross.
The first goat was sacrificed, as a sin offering, as Christ became the sin of 'Israel of the flesh' and was sacrificed. (just as our carnal man is crucified with Him, but in no way does the death of the carnal Israel/man provide atonement) The sacrifice of the first goat provided the legal requirement for the sins and iniquities of the people to be placed on the second goat, and taken to the wilderness. (a place uninhabited)
The second goat, also represents Christ in HIs living work, in His corporate Son,led by the Holy Spirit.
note: Jesus was LED into the wilderness, by the Holy Spirit
the second goat is LED into the wilderness by a man fit for the task.
Both goats represent Christ, one His "death" work which fullfulled the legal requirement for His "living" work to begin in His people.
I have no dispute with you that the feasts have all been fulfilled. However, you must delve more into the Law, to discover which ones were utterly fulfilled and which ones were legally fullfilled.
While the comparisons of the numbers in Strongs can provide some interesting clues, it certainly can't be used as a valid witness in determining truth. I've found countless errors in Strongs, as I'm sure you have as well. (Not saying what you found was one of them)

Brother Les
01-08-2008, 03:37 PM
kathryn
Hi Les....Israel of the flesh could never be used as a sacrifice, as all sacrifices to God had to be without spot or blemish. ALL the sacrifices represent THE sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and depict the various aspects of what His sacrifice accomplished at the Cross.
The first goat was sacrificed, as a sin offering, as Christ became the sin of 'Israel of the flesh' and was sacrificed. (just as our carnal man is crucified with Him, but in no way does the death of the carnal Israel/man provide atonement)
The second goat, also represents Christ in HIs living work, in His corporate Son,led by the Holy Spirit.
note: Jesus was LED into the wilderness, by the Holy Spirit
the second goat is LED into the wilderness by a man fit for the task.
I have no dispute with you that the feasts have all been fulfilled. However, you must delve more into the Law, to discover which ones were utterly fulfilled and which ones were legally fullfilled.
While the comparisons of the numbers in Strongs can provide some interesting clues, it certainly can't be used as a valid witness in determining truth. I've found countless errors in Strongs, as I'm sure you have as well. (Not saying what you found was one of them)
Today 02:41 PM

Kathryn,
If you think about it....there is no such thing as 'an' animal with 'no spot or blimish'...all fail 'the test'....Micah rails against 'the priests' for bringing every decrepied animal to the alter and keeping the best for themselves. 'You are stealing from the Lord....is what he said. Scripture says that 'The End' will come when 'the sins of The Holy People were full'...

What was at work is Grace....nothing was (or is) perfect, but the blood of Christ and Grace, covers and there by Passesover all sins.

The 'numbers' in Strongs' is not the point. It is the names and people involved that is the point. Bar-Abbas (Son of the Father) deserved to die. But was set free (by the Grace of God) Jesus ( Son of God) had no sin and deserved no harm, died, for all....as the final sacrifice.

Jesus 'ended' Gods, husband 'type' at The Cross, with The Sinai Covenant. He could not 'break' (any) the Covenant. But (as by Law) with God/Jesus died "to that" covenant, his 'wives' (plural) were 'freed' from their husband...But....the terms of the Covenant (Marriage Contract) had to be carried out. Even wih 'the Husband dead'.The Sinai Contract had Blessings and it had Curses. God held His arms out wide for His Harlot wives (plural) to return to Him...They did not....The 'Judgement' was the final carrying out of the Sinai Marriage Contract. Yes, these wives (goats) 'were' the Apple of Gods eyes. They 'were' perfect in every way (by Grace)....But when the Temple and city and Nation were given 'to' Judgement. There had to have 'a' Sacrifice....The Perfect sacrifice.....and that was Apostate 'Israel'...



Brother Les

kathryn
01-08-2008, 06:53 PM
Who are the "they" who had to have the "perfect" sacrifice of Apostate Israel, Les? I need to clarify a few things before I respond.

kathryn
01-08-2008, 10:51 PM
And could you point me to a place in scripture where God has used humans as sacrifices, with the exception of Christ?

Brother Les
01-09-2008, 08:07 AM
kathryn posted
Who are the "they" who had to have the "perfect" sacrifice of Apostate Israel, Les? I need to clarify a few things before I respond.

the word should have been 'there' as in 'there had to be...



kathryn posted
And could you point me to a place in scripture where God has used humans as sacrifices, with the exception of Christ?

There are many examples of God killing people to further His Glory. I think that what you are impling and want to 'see' is a 'Priest' putting 'a' man on an 'alter'. Scripture says that 'no Prophet' is killed outside of Jerusalem. This means that the Prophets of God are killed (sacrificed) by Jeusalem and her Apostate ways......FOR the Glory of God. Apostate 'Israel' thought that they were killing the Prophets for Apostate Israels 'glory'....but no, this was part of Gods plan of Redemption. Repent and listen to the Prophets and you will be Saved, do not listen and 'you' will die as a city, nation, covenant.

Hbr 10:26 ¶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


Hbr 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:


Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Hbr 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Hbr 10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Brother Les

kathryn
01-09-2008, 10:55 PM
I will not deny that people have been killed by the will of God, Les...but these were never blood sacrifices demanded by God, and offered to Him, to cover the sins of the people.
A "type" is a figure, emblem or symbol; a symbol of something to come. It is a literal representation of a spiritual fact.
All of the blood sacrifices commanded by God, were all types of Christ, symbolizing the various aspects of His Sacrifice on the Cross. The two goats were both types of Christ, and only Christ. The first goat symbolized His death work, which accomplished the legal removal of the penalty of our sin.(not the removal of sin itself) The second goat, symbolized the complete removal of sin, as it was taken to the wilderness,(to a place uninhabited) Again, this second goat symbolizes Christ and only Christ, in His living work,in and through His corporate son, by His Holy Spirit. It was the Holy Spirit who LED Jesus into the wilderness. It was by the hand of a fit man, who LED the second goat into the wilderness. I know I am repeating myself, but I'm not sure how you can ignore the evidence.
As for your comment regarding God's requirement that they (goats) be without blemish, in stating that there is 'no such thing as an animal without spot or blemish'..this of course would mean no sores, sickness, or deformities. Just as outward circumcision was a type and shadow of the circumcision of the heart, the requirement that the animal be without spot or blemish, was a type and shadow of the sinless Christ. The ritual sacrifice of the two goats was also only done on one day of the year...the Day of Atonement and only by the High Priest. Another fact to be taken into consideration, when examining the "types" of the goats, in the context of which they must be established.

Brother Les
01-11-2008, 07:08 AM
Let's look at the sixth feast of the Lord, which is the Day of Atonement.

Leviticus 23:27 (NKJV) "Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the LORD.

Leviticus 16:30-31 (NKJV) "For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the LORD. 31 "It is a Sabbath of solemn rest for you, and you shall afflict your souls. It is a statute forever.

The Day of Atonement was Israel's sixth instituted holy day and occurs in the autumn of the year. On the Hebrew calendar, it falls on the tenth day of Tishri, the seventh Hebrew month, which roughly corresponds to September or October.

"The Day of Atonement" is the English equivalent for Yom Kippur. For many, however, the word atonement is vague and sheds no light on the meaning of the holiday. Kippur is from the Hebrew word kaphar, meaning: "to cover." Therefore, the word atonement simply means a covering. It was on Yom Kippur that an atonement (covering) was made for the previous year's sins. The atonement or covering consisted of blood sacrifice of an innocent animal.

The Type

Yom Kippur was the most solemn day of the year for the people of Israel. It was often simply referred to as "The Day." It was a day that atonement was made for the priest and his family, the community, the Most Holy Place, the tent of meeting, and the altar. It was a solemn day. The Day of Atonement also was known as the "Great Fast" or "The Day of the Fast". Yom Kippur was designated by the Lord as a day in which "you shall afflict your souls." By definition, this was understood to mean fasting.

Yom Kippur was not the only fast within Judaism, but was the only fast mandated by scripture. The Israelite who failed to devote himself to fasting and repenting on Yom Kippur was to be "cut off from his people" (Lev. 23:29) Yom Kippur was also a day with prohibitions against all forms of work. Those who likewise chose to ignore this regulation would suffer the death penalty (Lev. 23:30).

Yom Kippur was also a very solemn day for the priesthood of Israel. Only on that singular day of the year was the high priest permitted to enter the Holy of Holies in the Temple and stand before the presence of God's glory. In doing so, the high priest was required to wear holy garments woven from white linen instead of his normal colorful garments overlaid with the golden breastplate. His linen garments were worn only on that day and never again.

It was absolutely critical to the nation that their high priest not become ritualistically unclean and, thereby, disqualify himself from performing his Yom Kippur duties. To safeguard against this possibility, the priest was required to leave his home one week before Yom Kippur to stay in the priest's headquarters in the Temple area. During the week, the high priest was twice sprinkled with the ashes of a red heifer to circumvent the possibility that he had become unclean through touching a dead body. Such was the normal cleansing process for ceremonial defilement (Numbers 19:1-10).

A substitute was also appointed for the high priest in the event he should die, or despite all precautions, become unclean. This substitute was usually next in line for the high priest's office, and, as such, the most powerful individual in the Temple after the High Priest. He was the captain of the Temple and exercised direct command of the officers of the Temple guard (Levites patrolled the Temple facilities, enforcing Mosaic law). It was the captains of the temple who gave Peter and John quite a fit in the book of Acts:

Acts 4:1 (NKJV) Now as they spoke to the people, the priests, the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees came upon them,

The high priest did not perform the Temple services on a regular basis, but during the week leading up to Yom Kippur, he alone conducted the sacrifices. All aspects of his duties for the coming holy day were faithfully practiced, whether it was sprinkling blood with his thumb and forefinger, burning incense, lighting the lamp stand, or rehearsing his movements throughout the Temple. There could be no mistakes, or the result would be a monumental catastrophe and humiliation for the nation - Israel's sacrifices would be disqualified, leaving the sins of the people uncovered.

Although the Jewish day began at sunset, the Temple service for Yom Kippur did not begin until dawn the next morning. The ashes on the altar were cleared away, and four fires, instead of the normal three, were lit to set the day apart as distinct. On any other day, the high priest would merely wash his hands and feet with water from the priestly laver before performing his service. On Yom Kippur, he was required to totally immerse himself in a special golden bath near the Court of the Priests. This was carried out behind a large linen curtain, which revealed the shadow of his movements to the public view. This assured that no changes were made to the required procedures. The high priest put on his golden garments with great care. His majestic purple robe was hemmed with tiny golden bells so the people could hear him work as he represented them. Over the top of his robe, he wore a golden breastplate which was studded with 12 precious stones - a constant reminder that he was the representative of the 12 tribes of Israel before the true and living God.

After dressing, the high priest washed his hands and feet to perform the regular daily service. Following the morning service, the high priest returned to his bath chamber to change into his white linen garments for Yom Kippur. Five times during the day, he changed clothing, and five times he followed the same cleansing procedure. Each time, he washed his hands and feet, removed his garments, totally immersed his body, put on his change of clothing, and washed his hands and feet a second time.

The afternoon Temple service was the main focus of the Yom Kippur observance. Through the sacrifices of this service, atonement was made for the sins of the priesthood and people of Israel for the preceding year.

The high priest began the afternoon service by moving to the Court of the Priests, where a young bull awaited him between the altar and the Temple porch. Since this bull was the sin offering for the high priest and the priesthood, the ceremony took place near the Temple where the priests ministered. The high priest would press his two hands against the head of the young bull, as a sign of identification with it as his substitute, and make a confession of his sin. Three times during his confession, he would pronounce the covenant name of the Lord (YAHWEH). Under Jewish oral law, this holy name was forbidden to be spoken on any other occasion lest it be taken in vain (Exodus 20:7) by mispronouncing it or misusing it. Each time the name was uttered by the high priest, the people of the priests would fall on their faces in worship and repeat, "Blessed be His name whose glorious kingdom is forever and ever!"

The high priest was next escorted by two priests to the eastern side of the altar. On his right was the deputy high priest (the priest appointed to take his place in case he became unable to fulfill his duties). On his left, he was escorted by the chief priest of the division of priests chosen to minister that week. In all, the priesthood was divided into 24 courses of priests, with each course serving one week on a rotating 24-week schedule (1 Chr. 24:19).

Two goats stood there, side by side, awaiting the high priest. They were identical in size, color, and value. They faced the Temple and gazed at the high priest and his entourage as they approached.

Two golden lots were placed inside a golden vessel sitting on the stone pavement nearby. One was inscribed with "FOR YAHWEH", and the other with "FOR AZAZEL." The high priest shook the vessel and randomly took one lot in each hand. As he held the lots to the foreheads of the goats and determined the outcome, he declared them "a sin offering to the Lord." The two goats together were viewed as one singular offering.

The goat, upon which the lot "For Azazel" fell, was immediately identified by a crimson strip of wool tied to one of its horns. It was then turned around to face the people, whose sin would later be placed on its head. Some debate exists as to the exact meaning of Azazel. Some believe it was a reference to Satan; for in Jewish tradition, Azazel was the name of a fallen angel. Others believe it just means "escape." This line of thinking led to the thought of calling this goat the "scapegoat", since it escaped death and was driven into the wilderness. The goat determined FOR YAHWEH was left to face the large stone altar; the place where it was shortly to be offered as a sin offering.

In the days of the second temple, the scapegoat was actually killed so that it (carrying Israel's sins) could not wander into an inhabited place at a later time. To prevent such a tragedy, the scapegoat was led to the edge of a rocky crag and pushed off backwards by the priest.

The best interpretation of the Azazel is understood by Alfred Edersheim in his book, The Temple, Its Ministry, and Services. Edersheim says that the later Jewish practice of pushing the goat over a rocky precipice was undoubtedly an innovation, in no wise sanctioned by the law of Moses, and not even introduced at the time the Septuagint translation was made, as its rendering of Leviticus 16:26 shows. The law simply ordained that the goat, once arrived in "the land not inhabited," was to be "let go" free, and the Jewish ordinance of having it pushed over the rocks is signally characteristic of the Rabbinical perversion of its spiritual type. The word "azazel", which only occurs in Leviticus 16, is by universal consent, derived from a root which means: "wholly to put aside," or "wholly to go away" (page 258). My position is one that sees the Messiah represented as both the goat who was slaughtered and its blood taken into the Most Holy of Holies, and as the goat who bore our transgressions upon Himself and was lead into the wilderness. The idea of releasing the goat into the wilderness shows the removal of our sins; that God removed our sins by placing them on Messiah.

The high priest returned to the young bull a second time and pressed his hands on its head. This time he confessed the sins of the priesthood, where as before he had confessed his own sin upon its head. The bull was then slaughtered by the high priest, and its blood collected in a golden bowl. A nearby attending priest was handed the bowl and given the task of stirring the blood so that it would not congeal.

Next, the high priest took a golden fire pan or censer and walked up the ramp to the altar. He carefully filled the fire pan with live coals from the fires burning on top of the altar. Then he took two handfuls of incense and placed them in a golden ladle. With the fire pan in his right hand, and the incense in his left, he ascended to the Temple and passed through the Holy Place where the lamp stand, the table of showbread, and altar of incense were located. At the rear of the Holy Place, he paused to make his way through the veil (the thick curtain which separated the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies). Once inside the Holy of Holies, he stood in quiet solitude. Only the soft orange glow of the coals lit the room.

The high priest poured the incense onto the coals and waited a few moments for a fragrant cloud of smoke to fill the room before making his way back through the thick curtain.

In Solomon's Temple, the Ark of the Covenant resided in the Holy of Holies, and the Shekinah Glory of the Lord rested above it. After the Babylonian Captivity, the ark was never recovered. The Holy of Holies remained an empty room with only a singular stone (called the "foundation stone") projecting three fingers in height (2 1/4 inches) up from the pavement. The high priest then took the golden bowl filled with the bull's blood and returned to the Holy of Holies. He carefully sprinkled the blood before the Ark of the Covenant. He sprinkled it once upwards and then seven times downwards, as though he were cracking a whip. All the while he counted aloud to prevent any errors. He then exited the Holy of Holies and placed the bowl in a golden stand. The high priest continued outside to the court of the Priests to slaughter the goat set aside for the Lord. He collected its blood in a golden bowl and entered the Holy of Holies a third time, sprinkling the blood of the goat in the same manner as that of a bull.

Afterwards, he sprinkled the outside of the veil with the blood of the bull. Then he repeated the procedure with the blood of the goat. Finally, he poured the two bowls together and sprinkled the horns (protruding points on each corner) of the altar in the courtyard.

Attention was then drawn to the remaining goat. The high priest proceeded to lay his hands on its head and confessed the sins of the people upon it. The scapegoat was then led by a priest through the Eastern Gate more than 10 miles into the wilderness never to be seen again.

While the scapegoat was being led into the wilderness and the people awaited word that it had been accomplished, the afternoon service continued. The high priest finished sacrificing the bull and the goat on the altar, and their remaining parts were taken outside the city to be burned (Hebrews 13:11-13). Then the high priest addressed the people. He read the Yom Kippur passages from Leviticus and quoted the Numbers passage by heart to verify that all commandments had been duly accomplished. Finally, the remaining offerings for Yom Kippur were offered; these were the burnt offerings, as opposed to the sin offerings.

The high priest entered the Holy of Holies a final time to remove the fire pan and incense ladle. He then bathed, for the fifth time during the day, and changed into his golden garments. As the cool autumn night quickly approached, he performed the regular evening Temple service, and drew Yom Kippur to a close.

The modern observance of Yom Kippur bears little resemblance to its Biblical observance. Modern observance is based more on traditions of men than commandments of God.

The Day of Atonement speaks of blood sacrifice. Blood sacrifice is centrally tied to the sin issue. The substitutionary death of an innocent one was required, since an atonement (covering) for sin was to be made only through the blood:

Leviticus 17:11 (NKJV) 'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.'

Hebrews 9:22 (NKJV) And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

Even the Jewish rabbinic tradition states, "There is no atonement but by blood."

The penalty for breaking God's law is death (the shedding of blood). His justice demands it, but in His mercy, He made a provision for a substitute. Since "There is none who does good, No, not one" (Psalm 14:3), God commanded the sacrificing of lambs, bulls, and goats under the Mosaic Covenant.

The Old Covenant was just a forerunner of something greater, a temporary measure until the fullness of time when God would institute the New Covenant. Hebrews says the "law made nothing perfect," "it was only a shadow," and it had many faults. It only covered sin, it didn't take sin away!Now we shall look at the Anti-type

Brother Les
01-11-2008, 07:14 AM
The Anti-type

Who is the anti-type of the High Priest? Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 4:14 (NKJV) Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

Jesus fulfilled the anti-type of the High Priest and the sacrifice!

The New Covenant is far superior to the Old Covenant in that it affords true forgiveness and cleansing from sin. There is no atonement (covering) for sin under the New Covenant. There is no need for one. The sin question was settled at Calvary. The Messiah was not our atonement - He did away with our atonement. To say we have an atonement, is really inaccurate and is never taught in the New Covenant. The only time the word "atonement" is used in the New Testament, is in Romans 5:11, and the Greek word for that is "reconciliation". Jesus has reconciled us to God. He no longer covers our sins, He takes them away.

The Old Covenant was a shadow of things to come. The New Covenant is the substance. Under the Old Covenant, the payment for sin was anticipated, under the New Covenant, it is realized! Under the Old Covenant, the sacrifices were provisional and recurring. Under the New Covenant, the sacrifice of Jesus is eternal and totally sufficient. Under the Old Covenant, men's lambs could only cover sin, but under the New Covenant, the lamb of god takes away sin!

Year after year, the sound of the ram's horn calls Israel to repentance, but there is no atonement in Judaism today. There is no blood sacrifice, no temple, no priesthood, and no adherence to the Levitical regulations. Within every Jewish breast, there yearns a need for true forgiveness before God. It will never be found in the traditions of men, such as doing mitzvoth, or good deeds, or transferring one's guilt to a substitute fowl. It can only come through accepting the infinite sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb of God.

Christ has been offered as a sacrifice for sin. His is the only sacrifice for sin today. If His sacrifice is rejected, only one tragic alternative remains: men and women will suffer the penalty for their own sin. This penalty is death and eternal separation from God. But to those who have put their trust is Him, he says, "Their sin, I will remember no more!"

Yom Kapor and the Second Coming

If you examine the Scriptures concerning the second coming of Christ, you will find that it uses Yom Kippur terminology. Here are a few examples:

Isaiah 52:13-14 (NKJV) Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently; He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high (The New Covenant references to this include Acts 2:32-35; 5:30-31; and Philippians 2:9-11). 14 Just as many were astonished at you, So His visage was marred more than any man, And His form more than the sons of men;

This description of Jesus depicts a lamb going to the slaughter (Isaiah 53:7). Isaiah 52:14 depicts a man so marred that He did not resemble a man. Furthermore, Isaiah 50:6 says that His beard was ripped out. Psalm 22:14,17 says His bones were out of joint, and that He was naked before the peering eyes of men. They even bit him (Psalm 22:13).

Recognizing that Isaiah 52:13-14 is speaking about Jesus during His first coming to earth, notice verse 15 speaking about His second coming:

Isaiah 52:15 (NKJV) So shall He sprinkle many nations. Kings shall shut their mouths at Him; For what had not been told them they shall see, And what they had not heard they shall consider.

The phrase, "So shall He sprinkle many nations", is a reference to the sprinkling of the blood on the mercy seat of God by the high priest during Yom Kippur (Leviticus 16:14). This is also referred to in Leviticus 1:5,11; 3:2,8,13; 4:6,17; 7:2.

When it says that Jesus would sprinkle the nations, it refers to what the high priest did on Yom Kippur on the mercy seat of God, so God would forgive the sins of the people. Jesus came as a prophet in His first coming; now He is the High Priest and came back as a King:

Isaiah 63:1-3 (NKJV) Who is this who comes from Edom, With dyed garments from Bozrah, This One who is glorious in His apparel, Traveling in the greatness of His strength?; "I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save." 2 Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress? 3 "I have trodden the winepress alone, And from the peoples no one was with Me. For I have trodden them in My anger, And trampled them in My fury; Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, And I have stained all My robes.
This passage describes the second coming of Christ, and verse 3 talks about His garments being sprinkled with blood. Once again this describes Jesus, the High Priest, coming back to earth on Yom Kippur.

Joel 2:15-16 (NKJV) Blow the trumpet in Zion [the trumpet (shofar) spoken of here refers to the trumpet ushering in the Messianic Kingdom, the last trump that is blown on Rosh HaShanah], Consecrate a fast [this speaks of the fast associated with Yom Kippur], Call a sacred assembly; 16 Gather the people, Sanctify the congregation, Assemble the elders, Gather the children and nursing babes; Let the bridegroom go out from his chamber, And the bride from her dressing room.

In this passage in Joel, we can see that the seven years of the tribulation, known as the birthpangs of the Messiah, are over, and the Messiah is coming back with His followers to go to the marriage supper of the Lamb:

Joel 2:17 (NKJV) Let the priests, who minister to the LORD, Weep between the porch and the altar [this speaks of an event that took place annually, the priest ministering in the Holy of Holies]; Let them say, "Spare Your people, O LORD, And do not give Your heritage to reproach, That the nations should rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples, 'Where is their God?'"

What is being communicated here by the phrase, "spare Your people"? For the answer we must turn to Zechariah 12 and 14:1-9. In these passages, we can see Jesus coming back after the birthpangs of the Messiah (tribulation), and Jerusalem about to be under siege. His feet are placed on the Mount of Olives. There is a great earthquake, and the Kingdom comes in full power.

Jesus spoke of this same event in Matthew 24:27-31. In Matthew 24:31, the trumpet that is being blown is called by Jesus, "The great trumpet". This is the trumpet that is blown on Yom Kippur. This trumpet will usher the return of Jesus. Because the great trump is only blown on Yom Kippur, and because Jesus said that He would return with the sound of a great trump, Jesus was stating very clearly that He would return on a Yom Kippur

The types make it clear that Christ was to return on the Day of Atonement. The question is: Do we look for this as a future event or has it already happened? I believe that the Bible is clear that it already happened:

Hebrews 9:6-8 (NKJV) Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. 7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people's sins committed in ignorance; 8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.

The background of Hebrews 9 is the Day of Atonement. Verse 7 here talks about the High Priest going into the Holy of Holies to make atonement. Now notice, carefully, verse 8. In other words, it is the Holy Spirit who is responsible for the record given to us of the old covenant. And the significance of the outer tabernacle being divided and separated from the inner tabernacle was that the way into the presence of God had not yet been given. The Jews were continually reminded, by the physical presence of the tabernacle, that they were not allowed to enter into the presence of God.

The words, "while the first tabernacle was still standing" might better be translated, "while the first tabernacle still has any standing" - while the Old Covenant was still in force. As long as the Old Covenant was still in effect, men did not have access to the presence of God. Prior to Jesus' second coming, at which he destroyed the temple and the Old Covenant, no one went to Heaven. Prior to Jesus' second coming in A.D. 70, all who died went to a holding place of the dead and waited for the atoning work of Christ and the resurrection from the dead. Until Christ's second coming, man could not go into God's presence.

1 Peter 1:5 (NKJV) who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


Salvation was ready to be revealed, when? In the last time, which would happen at the return of Christ:

Hebrews 9:28 (GWT) Likewise, Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of humanity, and after that he will appear a second time. This time he will not deal with sin, but he will save those who eagerly wait for him.

This is the only place in the New Testament where the return of Christ is called a second coming. In Young's Literal Translation, it says, "A second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear"

Please notice carefully that at the second coming of Christ, he was to "save those who were eagerly waiting for him." Who was it that was eagerly waiting for Christ to return? Again, we must remember the hermeneutical principle of audience relevance. It was the first century Christians who eagerly awaited His return. When he returned in A.D. 70, He destroyed the temple signifying that salvation was complete, and man had access to the presence of God.

Our text says, "He will appear a second time. This time He will not deal with sin, but He will save those who eagerly wait for him." At his second coming, He was to "save"those who eagerly waited for Him. What does the text mean by "save"? "Save" is the Greek word soteria, which we know has a broad range of meanings. The context dealing with the Day of Atonement would tell us that He uses it here of redemption. Full and complete redemption came at the second coming:

Luke 21:27-28 (NKJV) "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

The "these things" in the context of this verse is the destruction of Jerusalem. Redemption was complete when the Lord returned, destroying Jerusalem and ending the Old Covenant.

Exodus typology: The Passover deliverance was not consummated until they entered the promised land. The Passover began with the sacrificing of the Passover lamb introduced in Exodus 12, while Israel is still in bondage. They ate the first Passover while they were still in Egyptian bondage. In Numbers 9:5, they ate of it again, while they are wondering in the wilderness. And then in Joshua, they entered the land:

Joshua 5:9-10 (NKJV) Then the LORD said to Joshua, "This day I have rolled away the reproach of Egypt from you." Therefore the name of the place is called Gilgal to this day. 10 Now the children of Israel camped in Gilgal, and kept the Passover on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight on the plains of Jericho.

Throughout the history of Israel, the Passover recalled not only the sparing of the houses marked with the blood of the Passover lamb, but also Israel's subsequent deliverance out of slavery in Egypt; a deliverance that was consummated forty years later in the crossing of the Jordan River. Once their redemption was consummated by their being in the promised land, only then were they truly redeemed from Egyptian bondage. This is true of the second exodus generation. Their redemption was not consummated until the Lord returned for His bride. Because on the Day of Atonement the priest could be in God's presence (Leviticus 16:20), another term for the Day of Atonement is "face to face". Face to face is an idiom for the Day of Atonement. It was on the Day of Atonement that the high priest had to go behind the veil of the temple. At that moment, the nation had to hold its breath, because the nation's fate depended upon God's accepting the sacrifice. At that point, the high priest was "face to face with the mercy seat of God". "Face to face" terminology was used in:

1 Corinthians 13:9-12 (NKJV) For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

As we have seen in a previous study, "The Perfect Has Come", this is a reference to the second coming of Christ.

Jubilee year ( release of captives) started on Yom Kippur (Leviticus 25:9-11). The ultimate fulfillment of the year of Jubilee took place at the second coming of the Lord. Complete restoration of man's lost inheritance took place. So, the year of Jubilee and the Day of Atonement speak of the fullness of the redemptive plan of God for man. A.D. 70 was a Jubilee year!

God divinely placed the Day of Atonement before the Feast of Tabernacles, which is called "The Season of Our Joy." The children of Israel and all believers in the Lord Jesus could only rejoice once they were redeemed and their sins forgiven.




This message preached by David B. Curtis on September 7, 2003. Tape #278a.


Are 'we' 'redeemed and our sins forgiven? Must God forgive 'our 'sins', over and over and over, rolling then forward? 'We have Atonement for and from 'sin' and are already redeemed...

Brother Les

kathryn
01-11-2008, 05:22 PM
Hi Les,
Let me clarify what I didn't say:
I didn't say our sins had not been atoned for.
I didn't say we have not been forgiven of our sins, past, present and future.
I didn't say that Christ did not fullfill all of the sacrifices.

Curtis, while providing a great description from scripture, on the sacrificial laws given for Atonement, doesn't go very deep in his analogy of the types, particularily the second goat, with the exception that it signified the removal of sins. It would have been helpful if he had offered his conclusions on why it was a "living" offering, unique to only two in Levitical law. Or why it had to have a scarlet thread tied to its horn(a study of the scarlet thread in scripture will provide great insight into this requirement)...or why it paralleled the Holy Spirit leading Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted of satan. Jesus didn't accomplish the removal of sins in the wilderness. It qualified and equipped Him to begin His ministry. He repeats the same procedure in and through us.
You realize Les, that when it speaks in scripture of our sins being removed..the word "removed" means "removal of the penalty"? Christ's death work removed the penalty of sin. This is how He was legally able to be conceived in us, to complete His living work in His Corporate Son. That goat is still walking in the wilderness. Don't make the mistake the Israelites made, and push him off the cliff.

Trumpet
01-11-2008, 10:45 PM
Hi Les,

It was good to read about the typologies in your last 2 posts, but I did see some inconsistencies.


Next, the high priest took a golden fire pan or censer and walked up the ramp to the altar. He carefully filled the fire pan with live coals from the fires burning on top of the altar. Then he took two handfuls of incense and placed them in a golden ladle. With the fire pan in his right hand, and the incense in his left, he ascended to the Temple and passed through the Holy Place where the lamp stand, the table of showbread, and altar of incense were located. At the rear of the Holy Place, he paused to make his way through the veil (the thick curtain which separated the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies). Once inside the Holy of Holies, he stood in quiet solitude. Only the soft orange glow of the coals lit the room.

The high priest poured the incense onto the coals and waited a few moments for a fragrant cloud of smoke to fill the room before making his way back through the thick curtain.


Here it says that the high priest went into the Holy of Holies with the coals and the incense. After he got inside the curtain, it says he put the incense on the coals. The incense pertains to the spices "chief spices" in Song of Sol. These are made by crushing, and represent the fruits of the Spirit of a life totally dedicated to the Lord, and prayer. In this case it is the pure life of Jesus represented, and if the High priest were to enter the Holy of Holies without first holding the burning incense before him, he would have been killed. And the bells that were on his clothes were also there so that those outside would know if he were still alive. The High Priest also had a rope tied to himself, so that if the bells stopped ringing, those outside would have a way to remove the dead body.


The high priest then took the golden bowl filled with the bull's blood and returned to the Holy of Holies. He carefully sprinkled the blood before the Ark of the Covenant.

The high priest sprinkled the Ark itself, on the Mercy Seat, not the area in front of it. The Ark contained the items of judgement in the form of the law that would condemn. The Ark was symbolically sprinkled on top so that God would symbolically see the blood, and not the judgment.

I wish the author would have gone into depth with a few more things, like the linen garments representing resurrected bodies, the only kind of body that can see God, and the washing and incense representing the sanctification process that we need to go through to get the most out of our salvation.

Allow me to say a few things about your latest post.


Hebrews 9:6-8 (NKJV) Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. 7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people's sins committed in ignorance; 8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.

The background of Hebrews 9 is the Day of Atonement. Verse 7 here talks about the High Priest going into the Holy of Holies to make atonement. Now notice, carefully, verse 8. In other words, it is the Holy Spirit who is responsible for the record given to us of the old covenant. And the significance of the outer tabernacle being divided and separated from the inner tabernacle was that the way into the presence of God had not yet been given. The Jews were continually reminded, by the physical presence of the tabernacle, that they were not allowed to enter into the presence of God.

The words, "while the first tabernacle was still standing" might better be translated, "while the first tabernacle still has any standing" - while the Old Covenant was still in force. As long as the Old Covenant was still in effect, men did not have access to the presence of God. Prior to Jesus' second coming, at which he destroyed the temple and the Old Covenant, no one went to Heaven. Prior to Jesus' second coming in A.D. 70, all who died went to a holding place of the dead and waited for the atoning work of Christ and the resurrection from the dead. Until Christ's second coming, man could not go into God's presence.

He says in verse 8 that the going into the Holiest could not be made manifest until the old temple was gone. But…… the Old Temple, with the Ark and everything including the correct sacrifices were gone about 500 years prior to Jesus' death and resurrection, so when Paul wrote this, (before AD70), the Old tabernacle had been gone for 500 years, and Jesus manifested His sacrifice to the Father on Resurrection day in AD33, 37 years before the Temple was destroyed.
Paul said that the way into the Holy of Holies was not able to be manifest as long as the old tabernacle was standing. But the Tabernacle Paul was speaking of was Solomon's Temple, the only one to have the Ark. Zerrubabel's and Herod's Temples only had an empty room, and the whole typology that Paul was describing didn't exist in those 2 temples.

Two paragraphs later, the author of this article says that it means "while the first Tabernacle has any standing". Well, that's also misleading, because when Jesus died, the curtain was rent, symbolizing that the old covenant was finished, and anyone accepting Jesus no longer had a barrier to salvation. Jesus presented himself as the sacrifice for all of mankind to the Father on Resurrection Sunday, between the time Jesus told Mary not to touch Him, and when He appeared to the disciples and allowed Thomas to touch Him.

10 lines after this, he says that the temple in AD 70 was destroyed signifying that salvation was complete. This is untrue, because what the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple signified, was judgment that came as the result of the Jewish religious system's refusal to accept Jesus, and God was showing that it was worthless. It was the Anti-type of Jesus' baptism in the Holy Spirit, and then 40 years later, (a time of trial) the refusal of the Jewish system to accept the Holy Spirit. Man had access to the presence of God right after the Resurrection, and most especially after Pentecost.

By trying to make these events around AD70 to be the Second Coming takes away from the manifold purpose of God, and the manifold meaning contained in these prophecies. It's true that this was the end times for the Jewish religious system, but that's not the only system or the only end times. We're going to come to an end times also. His-story is in the Bible. The revealing of Jesus is contained in the Book. Jesus is alive,well, and working in the world today, and it is written in the scriptures. You just have to learn how to let the Holy Spirit show you where it is......It is the Glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings is to search out a matter. Pr. 25:2

God Bless Don

Rose
01-12-2008, 09:57 AM
Hi all, :yo:

Just an interesting fact to note in our study of the number 40, representing periods of trial.

Immediately after Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit, He began His 40 days of Temptation in the wilderness.

After the baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, the church began its 40 years of trials, leading up to the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.

Rose

wstruse
01-12-2008, 10:40 AM
Today we are living in the 40th Jubilee cycle from 70 AD.

Wstruse

kathryn
01-12-2008, 01:05 PM
A passing out of the pentecostal/refining generation/genea/age of the church...and into Tabernacle age, perhaps?

Trumpet
01-12-2008, 01:39 PM
Hi all,

I'd like to make a correction to my own mistake.

I said:

The high priest sprinkled the Ark itself, on the Mercy Seat, not the area in front of it. The Ark contained the items of judgement in the form of the law that would condemn. The Ark was symbolically sprinkled on top so that God would symbolically see the blood, and not the judgment.


In Les' post, the article that he copied said that the High priest sprinkled the blood up once and down seven times. After doing some more study, I've found that the blood not only had to be sprinkled on the Mercy Seat, but it also HAD to be sprinkled on the ground.

I'll be back with more on this as soon as I can gather it together in a readable format.