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Timmy
02-03-2012, 01:16 AM
:sBo_reflection2:ARE YOU LISTENING?:Investigate:
ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING??ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28sqs5H5hao&feature=relatedARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?


Timmy

Rose
02-03-2012, 09:47 AM
:sBo_reflection2:ARE YOU LISTENING?:Investigate:
ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING??ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28sqs5H5hao&feature=relatedARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?


Timmy

Hi Timmy,

I AM LISTENING...to all the wonderful sounds of nature, BUT what I also hear are the horrendous sounds of natural disasters that kill hundreds of thousands of people :eek: What is God saying then?

Rose

Richard Amiel McGough
02-03-2012, 12:25 PM
Hey ho, Timmy Oh! :sunny:

I'm listening.

But the wonders of nature don't make me believe in Apollo, Zeus, or Yahweh.

But I do believe there is a "God" in the sense of "Ground of Being" or "Cosmic Consciousness" or something along those lines. But nature is not "designed" in the way that makes me think there is a "top down designer" like the God of the Bible. That leads to all sorts of confusions about why he helps old ladies find their dog "Fluffy" and Tim Tebow win (and then lose) football games while simultaneously letting 200,000 people die in the Haiti earthquake. In other words, if there is a God who oversees the daily affairs of this world, then his priorities seem to be really messed up.

And that song ... it doesn't have much of an "edge" to it, does it? A little too saccharine for my taste. But hey! To each his own.

Rolling on ....

Richard

Timmy
02-04-2012, 12:25 PM
Gestern Rose, dann RAM, freundlicherweise Timmy auf diese weise begrüsst "Hi Timmy.I AM LISTENING.....and then RAM chimed in "Hey ho, Timmy Oh!:sunny:I'm listening."

Hi there Rose and Richard!
Have we got a treat for you two; though not only you, but all the kiddies wandering about this acropolis today.It's a song. Don't be shy, because i want to hear everybody: Rose...and you too Richie, and Debbie. . .and...and Ricky and Eddie and Joey and Johnny and Gilbert and everybody else...and even little me...we can all sing along together...

...because: DO YOU KNOW WHAT TIME IT IS?
It's candy coated, but there's no saccharine.


soooo...WHAT TIME IS IT?
It's Timmy Time!
...and for all of you who think this is silly,
after we all sing-along foreward,
those of you who think you are soooo mature
can sing with me my very own theme song
backwards.

First i'm going to sing it to you
so you can just get a feel for it
and also hear what i sound like singing,
and thennnN
we can sing my very own theme song all together
Ready to hear me singing it?

HERE GOES:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVLC4zpsk_Y&feature=fvsr


OK, is everyone ready???
All together now:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AHvzskE6NQ

And as promised, we can all now sing it in reverse:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RefKlV0vnfA&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL831BB15C74FC6246

How's that?

i hope everybody is happy now.
If you aren't, just turn that frown upside down
because we are just beginning.

Sing it again and again until you learn it really good, then holler for me and we can take it from the top.

i will have my back turned just for a bit to talk rith R&R, so Ricky, don't pull kathy's pony tails
...and Charis'? Please do not spit on the Lotus' feet or Bobby either. Besides, it's not ladylike...
...and none of such doings is proper ettiquette
...AND YUR MUMS AND DADS WILL BE NOTIFIED IF ANY OF YOU ACT OUT!

If you all are really good while having this back turned for just a couple of minutes, i have an even more special treat for all of you!

*Timmy shakes his wool, pats down his seven curly locks with his right fore-side cloven hoof, then turns to face Rose and RAM*

Ok, Richard and Rose? Now that all the rest of us are occupied, can we talk turkey?

Perhaps these things might be different than what you might have heard before and maybe not, but you might just be catching a glimpse of some things that just are not even seriously considered by many. Something about life feeds on life might be appropriate; but there is much much so much more to it than that if one dares enter into a place where human reason, through the mystery of paradox, becomes befuddled, then perplexed, then finally silenced just listening to the mysteries behind the veil of the order of the universe. However we choose to percieve the natural world about us, one begins to more than realize it is sooo much more than what physical eyes percieve.

For the above reasons, your comments will find curt replies to your combined cognitive dissonance, yet it is desired to know why it's chosen choose to say these things in the first place:
1.What is at the root?
2. Where have these notions led others?
3. Where have you come from and where are you going?
4. Of the things you have said, which ones are originally yours alone, never thought or said by another?
5. Have you inspected the end results of others who hold fast to these notions?
6 Are these ideas giving the appearance of liberation only binding one moreso than before they were first adhered to?
7. Who, in your own estimations, are the ones who are more free than others, to experience their environment without becoming tied to only the physical representations of various aspects of it...
8. ...and why?

Answers will be forthcoming, however in the meantime,in lue of the self-serving buffet line being shut down, a veritable smorgasbord of delicious delights are now available just sitting at your table. By just a button-touch with your finger, once engaging The Selectotronu-seeNtaste Tablemaster Serving Guide and Menu Order Dispenser.

You may be thinking that to be able to see and smell various delectables while walking around the buffet tables serving your self held something of a special and even romantic reminiscient value.

It's possible, but have you ever asked your selfs, "Who used those serving utinsils before you to dished all those palatable pleasures onto your plate?

...and who prepared the food you have chosen to eat?

Who wrote the recipes...
...and who 'improved' on them?

There are more questions, but let's talk about the magificent varieties of foods and drinks...and OH, the taste tingling desserts those delicacies right there in front of you considered to be better on the buffet line? Why is perpetuated conversations and a touch of the fingertip for food and drinks worse than the self-service buffet lines?

Just one portion of the above mentioned will be revealed for your consideration. You will now be told about some of the many who have stood around the serving line and reached into the various serving trays before you entered the restaurant...
...and in the meanwhile just think of all the many billions who have both served and eaten here. Kaptain Kosmoe'z Delicatessen and Chain Saw Repair Shop was here long before any of us were even twinkles in mommy's and daddy's eyes.

Well anyway, consider the fact of a long line of mentally challenged handicapped nose-picking diggers from the Helping Hands Special People Daycare Asylum and Camp Special Time have been such wonderful guests here, Yet, we began noting some things that just weren't kosher. The food you have been eating here was finally noted to be unfitting for human consumption after our pre-dinner 'special' guests left this eatery.

If D.U.M.B.(t.m.), the Department Under Mental Behaviours, and their elite specialist had not investigated these going ons, you probably still would be filling your plates with residual salivary treats from the self service buffet line after they had already finished their evening meals here.

Some were noted drooling profusely while others with intermittent conversations slobbered all over everything while dishing up yet another plate. This was then reported to D.U.M.B.(t.m.).

It has since been discovered this exsessive drivel of saliva began when both the special persons day camp and asylum psychoscitzophreneologists would prepare these mentally challenged special people by ringing a Pavlovian bell at the behest of their supervisory commitee when it was time for din din.

We have revealed nothing of where these special people's fingers had been prior to handing serving utensils and sometimes the food on the self-service tables.
(The microbiological labratory specialists at D.U.M.B. would have had a field day, as the Department of Human Helath and Services, had they known the full details of where all those fingers had been.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND ATTENTION,

Timmy


2 B CONTINUED

Ps 27:1
02-04-2012, 06:09 PM
:sBo_reflection2:ARE YOU LISTENING?:Investigate:


Hey Timmy!

You really crack me up!:lol: I did and I am. I learned to appreciate classical music at an early age because of my dad being a musician. I especially like the first minute with its chord progressions and oboe. My first major in college in 1972:eek: was in music. I wanted to be a french horn player but lacked the discipline to make up for my late start. I had played trumpet in high school and the french horn is a bit harder. Anyway, thank you for posting that. It was inspirational and I liked the usage of Psalm 19. (see sig).:thumb:

You really have a gift with words. Are you a writer? Nevermind, I just checked your profile.:doh:

Blessings,
Steve

Ps 27:1
02-04-2012, 07:34 PM
Hey Timmy,

This song really grabbed me when I first heard it around 1992. It's best listened to on a good stereo system or at least with headphones and cranked up a bit. At around 1:51 comes the punch. Youtube doesn't do it justice but it is still good. I haven't heard that song in a long time. I don't know what prompted me to go find it, but it sure brought the tears back. What a powerful singer, song, and music.


http://youtu.be/Pu4zp6xjJAk

Blessings,
Steve

Charisma
02-06-2012, 03:40 AM
What a powerful singer, song, and music.I really enjoyed this, Steve. Thank you.


Timmy, I'll be quite glad when there's something fresh on the menu!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snSeDrczpi8&feature=fvst


Psalm 40:3
He has put a new song in my mouth—
Praise to our God;
Many will see it and fear,
And will trust in the Lord.

Ps 27:1
02-06-2012, 11:06 AM
I really enjoyed this, Steve. Thank you.


Timmy, I'll be quite glad when there's something fresh on the menu!

Psalm 40:3
He has put a new song in my mouth—
Praise to our God;
Many will see it and fear,
And will trust in the Lord.

Wow, Charisma! Thank you for introducing me to a new group and songs.:lol: I really like this from their youtube channel.


http://youtu.be/ParMYPL82Jo

My wife's favorite song from the Larnelle CD is "The Strength of the Lord".


http://youtu.be/mWFpj7S-Tbw

We especially like the chorus:

It's not in trying but in trusting
It's not in running, but in resting
It's not in wondering, but in praying
That we find the Strength of the Lord.

Blessings,
Steve

Timmy
02-16-2013, 03:06 AM
Hi Timmy,

I AM LISTENING...to all the wonderful sounds of nature, BUT what I also hear are the horrendous sounds of natural disasters that kill hundreds of thousands of people :eek: What is God saying then?

RoseHi Rose,

You do not have to accept this, yet this is my answer, and it is not my answer, as this is the answer of my Master,--who has put me in my place a time or two hundred plus--in my own words,--but what about yours--yet these are not my own:
Yeshua Ha'Mashiach Jesus TheChrist told us, transmitted via Yochanan John and now Timmy:

I Am the door.
If anyone enters in by me, he shall be delivered, restored, and preserved;
And will go in and out [The Door of the sheepfold]
And find pasture. (5.34/Ps. 23.2)
The thief only comes to rip-you-off, kill, and destroy.
I have come that they [the sheep] may have life and abundant life at that.
I Am the good shepherd.
The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.


Ummmm..,

Timmy


...and Richard, are you so staunce in your opinion that you are immovable from your apparent Deistic Naturalism, that you need look no further? What about all the things men or their knowledge (aka:sciences) still cannot explain or all the past errors based on what past intellectually reasonable have misconjectured?

Does God have to fit into the way you think He is or how you assume Him to be in order to be God? Ya' know, the scribes and pharisees sought from Jesus a sign, even though there were too many given to recount, says John. Jesus told.those knowledgable religious leaders that no.sign shall be given but what?

...and since you think you might be figuring everything out according to your plans, i'll leave you to your frenetics, a word from the prophet Yeshua is referred to and appeals through the most, and a song or two...for the moment.

"From of old, nobody has heard or even perceived with the ear, nor eye has seen a God besides you, who acts for those who wait for him." (Isaiah 64.4)



Keep Me Running (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwLKCjJTR8E)
OR
King of Hearts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDJOZEN3HUo)

Rose
02-16-2013, 11:12 AM
Hi Rose,

You do not have to accept this, yet this is my answer, and it is not my answer, as this is the answer of my Master,--who has put me in my place a time or two hundred plus--in my own words,--but what about yours--yet these are not my own:
Yeshua Ha'Mashiach Jesus TheChrist told us, transmitted via Yochanan John and now Timmy:

I Am the door.
If anyone enters in by me, he shall be delivered, restored, and preserved;
And will go in and out [The Door of the sheepfold]
And find pasture. (5.34/Ps. 23.2)
The thief only comes to rip-you-off, kill, and destroy.
I have come that they [the sheep] may have life and abundant life at that.
I Am the good shepherd.
The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.


Ummmm..,

Timmy

Hello Timmy,

The answer of your master...found in the pages of Scripture, whose authorship is that of primitive men. It says the thief comes to kill and destroy, yet your master allows this thief to run rampant amongst men. Your master says that he has come to give mankind abundant life, yet at every turn he allows life to be taken away in the most horrendous fashion, when only a word from his mouth would bring forth legions of angels. How can I trust his words?

Is the green pastures which are found through his door enough to comfort those whose loved ones are suffering in eternal torment by his hand, merely because they missed the door? Where is his justice?

Somehow your answer leaves me with a sense of bewilderment...what does it mean to lay down ones life for another? Jesus tells us that his father loved him because he was obedient and laid down his life...would there have been no fatherly love if Jesus had not laid down his life?

Much to think about...



Does God have to fit into the way you think He is or how you assume Him to be in order to be God? Ya' know, the scribes and pharisees sought from Jesus a sign, even though there were too many given to recount, says John. Jesus told.those knowledgable religious leaders that no.sign shall be given but what?

...and since you think you might be figuring everything out according to your plans, i'll leave you to your frenetics, a word from the prophet Yeshua is referred to and appeals through the most, and a song or two...for the moment.

"From of old, nobody has heard or even perceived with the ear, nor eye has seen a God besides you, who acts for those who wait for him." (Isaiah 64.4)



Keep Me Running (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwLKCjJTR8E)
OR
King of Hearts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDJOZEN3HUo)


Do you not realize the perception you have of god is solely derived from the Bible? You have built your conception of the creator of the universe upon the writings of primitive men whose mindset imagined a male warrior god able to protect them and fight their battles. Richard and I are only describing to you the god that is presented to us in Scripture...where else should we find out about his attributes?

Keep pursuing the truth,
Rose

Richard Amiel McGough
02-16-2013, 11:20 AM
soooo...WHAT TIME IS IT?
It's Timmy Time!
...and for all of you who think this is silly,
after we all sing-along foreward,
those of you who think you are soooo mature
can sing with me my very own theme song
backwards.

How's that?

i hope everybody is happy now.
If you aren't, just turn that frown upside down
because we are just beginning.

Hey ho Timmy,

Given your propensity for silliness, you should know that it is highly esteemed in our household. We have both a lamp and a cat called "silly."



*Timmy shakes his wool, pats down his seven curly locks with his right fore-side cloven hoof, then turns to face Rose and RAM*

Ok, Richard and Rose? Now that all the rest of us are occupied, can we talk turkey?

Perhaps these things might be different than what you might have heard before and maybe not, but you might just be catching a glimpse of some things that just are not even seriously considered by many. Something about life feeds on life might be appropriate; but there is much much so much more to it than that if one dares enter into a place where human reason, through the mystery of paradox, becomes befuddled, then perplexed, then finally silenced just listening to the mysteries behind the veil of the order of the universe. However we choose to percieve the natural world about us, one begins to more than realize it is sooo much more than what physical eyes percieve.

For the above reasons, your comments will find curt replies to your combined cognitive dissonance, yet it is desired to know why it's chosen choose to say these things in the first place:
1.What is at the root?
2. Where have these notions led others?
3. Where have you come from and where are you going?
4. Of the things you have said, which ones are originally yours alone, never thought or said by another?
5. Have you inspected the end results of others who hold fast to these notions?
6 Are these ideas giving the appearance of liberation only binding one moreso than before they were first adhered to?
7. Who, in your own estimations, are the ones who are more free than others, to experience their environment without becoming tied to only the physical representations of various aspects of it...
8. ...and why?

Answers will be forthcoming, however in the meantime,in lue of the self-serving buffet line being shut down, a veritable smorgasbord of delicious delights are now available just sitting at your table. By just a button-touch with your finger, once engaging The Selectotronu-seeNtaste Tablemaster Serving Guide and Menu Order Dispenser.

As I trust you know, I am quite aware of the natural world is "sooo much more than what physical eyes percieve." Being a non-theist only means that I reject gods made in the image of man, gods that run about "doing things" like any other bit player in the Cosmic Drama. Gods made in the image of man - the apotheosis of EGO! That's what I reject.

As for the nature of Ultimate Reality - well, it's a bit beyond my ken, thought glimmers I see like a numinous halo suggesting something more. Is consciousness the foundation of reality, or materialism? Those are the two primary species of monism. I am not inclined towards mind/body (spirit/matter) dualism.

So in answer to your questions:

1) The root is Ultimate Reality. It is probably monistic, but could be dualistic. If monistic, I tend towards Idealism ....
2) What notions?
3) Memories fade. Plato said that we knew everything before we were born and then forgot it. Of course, it seems pretty clear that I came from the earth and will be returning there. As for anything else - who knows, who cares? I'll be finding out soon enough. Would it make any difference while I'm living here?
4) We inherit our language so it limits our ability to think freely. But still, our sentences are usually novel improvisations based on ancient (unconscious) themes.
5) Which notions?
6) Please give an example.
7) All the folks who have freed themselves from the shackles of dogmas. This includes political, religious, scientific dogmas of any ideology.
8) Why what?



You may be thinking that to be able to see and smell various delectables while walking around the buffet tables serving your self held something of a special and even romantic reminiscient value.

It's possible, but have you ever asked your selfs, "Who used those serving utinsils before you to dished all those palatable pleasures onto your plate?

...and who prepared the food you have chosen to eat?

Who wrote the recipes...
...and who 'improved' on them?

There are more questions, but let's talk about the magificent varieties of foods and drinks...and OH, the taste tingling desserts those delicacies right there in front of you considered to be better on the buffet line? Why is perpetuated conversations and a touch of the fingertip for food and drinks worse than the self-service buffet lines?

I frequently marvel at my jar of olives imported from Italy. I think to myself: Who made the jar? Who made the label? Who made the paper for the label and the metal lid? Who picked the olives? Who designed the ship that shipped it here. Who fed the thousands who built it? Who taught the engineers? Who bound the books they read? Who cleaned the toilets of the people who made the ink for the books? Who ... it's really amazing when you think about how something as simple as a jar of olives involves the labor of people from all over the planet.



Just one portion of the above mentioned will be revealed for your consideration. You will now be told about some of the many who have stood around the serving line and reached into the various serving trays before you entered the restaurant...
...and in the meanwhile just think of all the many billions who have both served and eaten here. Kaptain Kosmoe'z Delicatessen and Chain Saw Repair Shop was here long before any of us were even twinkles in mommy's and daddy's eyes.

Well anyway, consider the fact of a long line of mentally challenged handicapped nose-picking diggers from the Helping Hands Special People Daycare Asylum and Camp Special Time have been such wonderful guests here, Yet, we began noting some things that just weren't kosher. The food you have been eating here was finally noted to be unfitting for human consumption after our pre-dinner 'special' guests left this eatery.

Do you ever peak into Finnegans Wake?

Here Comes Everyone!





2 B CONTINUED

2 B continued? OK.

3 C

How's that?

Timmy
02-18-2013, 07:21 AM
Hey ho Timmy...


Do you ever peak into Finnegans Wake?

Here Comes Everyone!


2 B continued? OK.

3 C

How's that?:icon_hello:Howya' Big Kahuna an' top o' the mornin' to ya' and the lady bird:yo:Greets Rose,

Me cut ne crk that HCE be Humongus Cranial Explosion, yeah?
YaNah...yah' know?

Bollocks! Lady Bird n you kin' wait but gobshite the babby tots, eh?
Ole buck Tim awakes indeed, so while m' slash in me jacks, here's to yer intermission gaze.

Me hopes ta' be right back...if not,
keep the fires hot
'fore we dance a jig ta' pek
aft' i pull up me socks
and see wat e'er betides the day.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqfQt6nlKus


Cheery ho!

Tim

3C ?
Yeah yeah

Charisma
02-23-2013, 03:15 PM
Hi Rose,

I have been thinking about your answer to Timmy, and can see how far you have moved away from trusting that the written word of God is a secure foundation for understanding things seen and unseen. While you are lining up with the one who first questioned God's word (Hath God said you shall surely die?), you are proving and establishing that you yourself are bound by everything the Bible says about fallen man.

God has put His attributes in His creation, which if you are willing to let them speak to you, will direct you back to Him. The introduction of mind-games (philosophies, like those to which the serpent introduced Eve and Adam) will only perpetuate your bewilderment. Paul explains the demise of those who choose not to accommodate truth which is staring them in the face from both God and creation, in Romans 1. He declares all those who engage in abominations, and even those whom God gave over to reprobation, as worthy of death. And then he asks the all-time non-rhetorical question:
'Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?'

So we learn that even for those who 'knew God', there is a way back from the brink of destruction. This might be summed up (by me) as the third chance. The first chance, is to acknowledge God and worship Him right from the start. The second chance is to start accommodating truth about Him before He gives you over to the consequences of your rebellion - which can sometimes mean that He leaves you to rot and is impervious to your prayers. The third chance is to test whether repentance is still open to you by repenting with real repentance - which some say is a gift from Him.

One thing might make that more difficult. That is, if you have become implaccable; so that not even God's great and loving kindness in giving you a last chance saloon, will induce you to humble yourself and seek real contrition. What is so sad to watch, as you and Richard risk your souls eternal well-being fo the sake of exploring sin in greater measure than you ever did before you were 'Christians', is that both of you sound less and less as if you actually care about truth anymore, at all. Yet Jesus Christ said, 'I am the Truth', and in Him are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

If reading about the Flood through which Noah was saved, and the death of Christ on the cross is not enough to convince you that God cares for man far more than man is capable of caring for God unless He changes our hearts (old hearts for new hearts), then you have begun to lose the plot, or, you never quite had the plot in the first place - which is entirely possible. Many who think they are Christians have never really grappled with God Himself until they can say like Jacob that they've met Him face-to-face, and live. It's a moot point that Jacob did not 'win' the wrestling, but was overcome by Him who overcomes, thus being given his new name, Israel - God prevails. Unless you become willing to be prevailed over by God (to be blessed by Him), the day will come when you are prevailed over by Him to be condemned.

Hebrews 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.


Truth is an absolute which, when you encounter it, you have to capacity to recognise. From that moment on, you are held accountable. Of course, we are all being held accountable for what we are sowing or building and we will all be tried by fire (death). Just because a person sins delicately, or in a culturally acceptable way, doesn't mean they will escape final testing. God has never been culturally sensitive to man's preferences. On the contrary, the culture He's sensitive about is the one He designed for His creation, which He redeemed with His own blood.

Genesis 11:6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

You can't fault the Lord's desire to have fellowship with mankind, and His general resistance to mankind settling for fellowship with itself. That is a plain evidence of the effect of the fall on Adam's descendants. They wanted to get to God their own way.

Interesting, isn't it, that the serpent told only half the truth to Adam and Eve? He lied about them not dying, viz, he didn't tell them that once they became 'as gods knowing good and evil', God would not permit them to live for ever; and didn't warn that they would be separated from Him.

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Coming to a knowledge of the truth, necessarily means ceasing from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and starting to eat of the tree of life.

You know that 'God our Saviour; 4 ... will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.' 1 Timothy 2.

Psalm 69:19 Thou hast known my reproach, and my shame, and my dishonour:
mine adversaries are all before thee.
20 Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness:
and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none;
and for comforters, but I found none.
21 They gave me also gall for my meat;
and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

22 Let their table become a snare before them:
and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.
23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not;
and make their loins continually to shake.
24 Pour out thine indignation upon them,
and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.
25 Let their habitation be desolate;
and let none dwell in their tents.
26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten;
and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity:
and let them not come into thy righteousness.
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,
and not be written with the righteous.



Despite the fact that resurrection is mentioned unmistakably in scripture many times, many people pretend to themselves it won't happen because they don't want to think about it. That's called self-deception. Self-deception follows after the person has colluded with deception.

Don't be one of those. Think about it. Why waste eternity on ephemeral philosophies?

Be smarter than that, and let God bless you (forever). :)

Rose
02-23-2013, 11:08 PM
Hi Rose,

I have been thinking about your answer to Timmy, and can see how far you have moved away from trusting that the written word of God is a secure foundation for understanding things seen and unseen. While you are lining up with the one who first questioned God's word (Hath God said you shall surely die?), you are proving and establishing that you yourself are bound by everything the Bible says about fallen man.

Hi Charisma,

What makes you think the Bible is the written word of god? Why should I trust in an ancient book written by primitive men who saw nothing wrong with denying women equal rights and treating them like property? Besides that, the god these primitive men created was as biased against women and girls as they were.


God has put His attributes in His creation, which if you are willing to let them speak to you, will direct you back to Him. The introduction of mind-games (philosophies, like those to which the serpent introduced Eve and Adam) will only perpetuate your bewilderment. Paul explains the demise of those who choose not to accommodate truth which is staring them in the face from both God and creation, in Romans 1. He declares all those who engage in abominations, and even those whom God gave over to reprobation, as worthy of death. And then he asks the all-time non-rhetorical question:
'Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?'

Among the attributes of god described in the Bible are vengeance, jealousy, retribution and judgment. These qualities are manifest in very negative ways in humans and have led men to do horrendous things in the name of god.

In my opinion Paul is not trustworthy. He is a typical man of his time period who blamed the mythological figure Eve for causing mankind to fall into sin, thus justifying his belief that women should be in subjugation to men.


So we learn that even for those who 'knew God', there is a way back from the brink of destruction. This might be summed up (by me) as the third chance. The first chance, is to acknowledge God and worship Him right from the start. The second chance is to start accommodating truth about Him before He gives you over to the consequences of your rebellion - which can sometimes mean that He leaves you to rot and is impervious to your prayers. The third chance is to test whether repentance is still open to you by repenting with real repentance - which some say is a gift from Him.

If there is a creator god it certainly is not the god of the Bible. The god described in the pages of Scripture is a gender biased, misogynistic tyrant who demands worship and praise at the expense of the well being of humans. Why should I put myself in bondage to the ideas of primitive Bronze Age men, who thought that women were inferior to them?


One thing might make that more difficult. That is, if you have become implaccable; so that not even God's great and loving kindness in giving you a last chance saloon, will induce you to humble yourself and seek real contrition. What is so sad to watch, as you and Richard risk your souls eternal well-being fo the sake of exploring sin in greater measure than you ever did before you were 'Christians', is that both of you sound less and less as if you actually care about truth anymore, at all. Yet Jesus Christ said, 'I am the Truth', and in Him are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

I fail to see the loving kindness in the actions of a god who would decree that women be treated in such an immoral and abusive manner. There can be no love in a god who orders the slaughter of innocent women and children while commanding that NO MERCY be shown to them.

It is because Richard and I care so much about truth that we could no longer believe the lie that the Bible is the word of god. The minute we opened our eyes to the truth it became clear that the Bible is no more than the ideas of primitive men who posited a god to account for what they couldn't understand.


If reading about the Flood through which Noah was saved, and the death of Christ on the cross is not enough to convince you that God cares for man far more than man is capable of caring for God unless He changes our hearts (old hearts for new hearts), then you have begun to lose the plot, or, you never quite had the plot in the first place - which is entirely possible. Many who think they are Christians have never really grappled with God Himself until they can say like Jacob that they've met Him face-to-face, and live. It's a moot point that Jacob did not 'win' the wrestling, but was overcome by Him who overcomes, thus being given his new name, Israel - God prevails. Unless you become willing to be prevailed over by God (to be blessed by Him), the day will come when you are prevailed over by Him to be condemned.

The Flood story does no more then tell me that the biblical god is a genocidal maniac who thinks the solution to every problem is bloodshed, including the human sacrifice of his own son. Doesn't sound very loving or long suffering to me.



Interesting, isn't it, that the serpent told only half the truth to Adam and Eve? He lied about them not dying, viz, he didn't tell them that once they became 'as gods knowing good and evil', God would not permit them to live for ever; and didn't warn that they would be separated from Him.

What I think is interesting is that you don't realize the whole Garden story of Adam, Eve and the serpent is just an ancient mythological tale.

Take care,
Rose

Richard Amiel McGough
02-24-2013, 11:48 AM
Hi Rose,

I have been thinking about your answer to Timmy, and can see how far you have moved away from trusting that the written word of God is a secure foundation for understanding things seen and unseen. While you are lining up with the one who first questioned God's word (Hath God said you shall surely die?), you are proving and establishing that you yourself are bound by everything the Bible says about fallen man.

Hey there Charisma,

I'm really glad you feel free to speak you mind. I will respond in kind. Your idea that the Bible is "a secure foundation for understanding" is demonstrably false. Just look at the endless debates between Christians about what it really means. Equally devout believers come do diametrically opposed conclusions. Why is that? Because the Bible is a very ambiguous book filled with contradictions so every interpreter must rely on their own judgment to determine what it "really" means. So the Bible is not any kind of "foundation" at all. You are relying on your own interpretation which is based on many baseless assumptions, the most obvious being your idea that the "Bible" is the "word of God." The Bible doesn't even define itself. Is the Catholic Bible with the apocrypha the "word of God"? If not, why not? Others think it is. By what authority do you contradict them?

Your suggestion that Rose and I are "lining up with the one who first questioned God's word" is a very nasty way of implying that we are Satanic merely because we have spoken truth. In biblical terms, this is like blaspheming the "spirit of truth" - the Holy Spirit. If we have written anything that is not true, your duty is to expose our errors, not insinuate that we are like the Devil.

Now since you brought it up, let's look at who spoke truth in the Garden and who did not. God said that Adam and Eve would "surely die" the DAY they ate. Did they? Nope. The serpent said that there eyes would be opened and they would be like God. Is that what happened? Yes. Thus, it was the serpent who spoke truth and God who lied. And worse, God did not tell them anything about what would REALLY happen, namely, that he would kick them out of the garden and cause their children to suffer for millennia! The story of the fall shows God to be deceptive and cruel. He did not speak truth to his own children and he deliberately cursed all humanity to suffer for ages with no good reason at all.



God has put His attributes in His creation, which if you are willing to let them speak to you, will direct you back to Him. The introduction of mind-games (philosophies, like those to which the serpent introduced Eve and Adam) will only perpetuate your bewilderment. Paul explains the demise of those who choose not to accommodate truth which is staring them in the face from both God and creation, in Romans 1. He declares all those who engage in abominations, and even those whom God gave over to reprobation, as worthy of death. And then he asks the all-time non-rhetorical question:
'Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?'

So we learn that even for those who 'knew God', there is a way back from the brink of destruction. This might be summed up (by me) as the third chance. The first chance, is to acknowledge God and worship Him right from the start. The second chance is to start accommodating truth about Him before He gives you over to the consequences of your rebellion - which can sometimes mean that He leaves you to rot and is impervious to your prayers. The third chance is to test whether repentance is still open to you by repenting with real repentance - which some say is a gift from Him.

Using our intelligence to understand the truth is not a "mind-game." It is what the Bible tells every person to do.

There is great irony in your comment because there is no greater "mind-game" than the one to which you have subjected yourself. Your religion is nothing but a huge "mind-game" spanning thousands of years. You begin with assumptions that have no basis in fact and then ignore all facts that contradict them. Just look at the kinds of excuses you are willing to make up to justify your beliefs.

Your appeal to prayer makes no sense. It is a demonstrable fact that God does not, as a general rule, answer any prayers. This shows how Christians have lost their minds. They constantly assert that God is "trustworthy" when in fact they know with perfect certainty that God cannot actually be TRUSTED to do anything at all for anyone in this life. Your words therefore have no meaning. When you say that you "trust" God all you really mean is that no matter what happens, it's for the best because God allowed it. The concept therefore is ABSOLUTELY INDISTINGUISHABLE from a universe in which God does not exist. You would get exactly the same results if you prayed to a milk jug.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI]

Please watch that video and explain why it is not true.

The foundation of your belief is fallacious. It is built on the idea of the MALE EGO-GOD that demands, Demands, DEMANDS! obedience and worship and will inflict eternal suffering upon those who do not submit. Such a god is obviously the product of primitive brutal ignorant males.



One thing might make that more difficult. That is, if you have become implaccable; so that not even God's great and loving kindness in giving you a last chance saloon, will induce you to humble yourself and seek real contrition. What is so sad to watch, as you and Richard risk your souls eternal well-being fo the sake of exploring sin in greater measure than you ever did before you were 'Christians', is that both of you sound less and less as if you actually care about truth anymore, at all. Yet Jesus Christ said, 'I am the Truth', and in Him are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Your idea that we want to "explore sin" is as ridiculous as it is rude, disgusting, and slanderous. We are seeking nothing but the TRUTH that you reject so vehemently because it is fatal to your fantasies. The great irony of Christianity is that it claims to worship the TRUTH in the person of Jesus Christ and then proceeds to trample it under foot in service of religious dogmas.



If reading about the Flood through which Noah was saved, and the death of Christ on the cross is not enough to convince you that God cares for man far more than man is capable of caring for God unless He changes our hearts (old hearts for new hearts), then you have begun to lose the plot, or, you never quite had the plot in the first place - which is entirely possible. Many who think they are Christians have never really grappled with God Himself until they can say like Jacob that they've met Him face-to-face, and live. It's a moot point that Jacob did not 'win' the wrestling, but was overcome by Him who overcomes, thus being given his new name, Israel - God prevails. Unless you become willing to be prevailed over by God (to be blessed by Him), the day will come when you are prevailed over by Him to be condemned.

Reading about the Flood does not lead to belief because that story proves the Bible is false. The proof is total and complete. DNA and the fossil record proves that there was no global extinction of land animals in the last 10,000 years. And there are many other problems with that story that is so obviously mythological. Your appeal to it as something that should convince a rational person to believe shows how far removed you are from common reality shared by most citizens of the 21st century. It's the LAST thing that should be mentioned since it is a HUGE problem for all informed believers. Don't you know about the thousands of hours sincere believers have wasted trying to reconcile the flood story with reality? Essentially all scientifically trained believers have abandoned the effort. They have quit because they know it is impossible. The flood simply did not happen.

And the death of Christ - why would anyone think that was necessary to forgive sin? I forgive people every day without demanding a bloody sacrifice. Why can I do what God cannot? And you can't kill the innocent in the place of the guilty! How would that be justice?

If God is truly omnipotent, he will "prevail" without my permission. Your suggestion that mere humans must "let" God do what he wants to do contradicts your idea that he is sovereign. This is one of the deepest incoherent doctrines of Christianity. The Calvinists got it right. According to the Bible, no one can resist God's will, and there is NOTHING that anyone can do to "get saved." God alone saves those whom he chooses, and he damns the rest. This is what was taught by the Reformers - those who gave you your Protestant religion and Bible. So you follow their tradition when it suits you, and you reject it when it doesn't. You are just doing what is right in your own eyes. You are the final judge and jury of what the Bible "really" means. Forgive me if I do not bow to you as the Ultimate Authority on spiritual truth. You cloak your personal interpretations under bold proclamations that the Bible is "God's word" but then you just make up whatever you want to believe. Consider our friend David M. He does exactly the same thing and comes to diametrically opposed conclusions. He declares absolutely that the Bible teaches that JESUS IS NOT GOD! So who am I to believe? The answer doesn't matter, of course, since whatever conclusion I choose will be due to my own fallible reasoning. How than can the Bible be trusted as a "secure foundation" if believers can't even agree about what it means?



Truth is an absolute which, when you encounter it, you have to capacity to recognise. From that moment on, you are held accountable. Of course, we are all being held accountable for what we are sowing or building and we will all be tried by fire (death). Just because a person sins delicately, or in a culturally acceptable way, doesn't mean they will escape final testing. God has never been culturally sensitive to man's preferences. On the contrary, the culture He's sensitive about is the one He designed for His creation, which He redeemed with His own blood.

I agree! I have encountered the TRUTH that the Bible, as you and all most Christians understand it, is FALSE. There. That was easy! :p



Genesis 11:6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

You can't fault the Lord's desire to have fellowship with mankind, and His general resistance to mankind settling for fellowship with itself. That is a plain evidence of the effect of the fall on Adam's descendants. They wanted to get to God their own way.


So you really believe that all the different languages resulted from God "confounding" the one language a few thousand years ago? If so, then again you are displaying a gross and inexcusable ignorance since we have lots of evidence of how languages evolved independently all over the planet. The Tower of Babel is obviously a MYTH.

The idea that God wants "fellowship" strikes me as utterly absurd, since if he exists, he has done everything in his power to hide from everyone! Especially those who most fervently believe in him. We know that he hides from believers because they constantly assert that "God said this" while another says "NO! God said that!" and a third says "You are both wrong! God distinctly stated this other thing!" It's madness, pure madness. How could you invite anyone to join you in such a House of Babel?



Interesting, isn't it, that the serpent told only half the truth to Adam and Eve? He lied about them not dying, viz, he didn't tell them that once they became 'as gods knowing good and evil', God would not permit them to live for ever; and didn't warn that they would be separated from Him.

So you fault the devil for not warning them about the consequence of their actions? Great! Then you are faulting GOD HIMSELF because God never warned them about the real consequences of disobedience. He said they would merely die, but what did God really intend? He knew that he would CURSE THEM AND THEIR CHILDREN AND THE EARTH ITSELF and so cause all the suffering in the history of the world. That's what your "God" did! Where is his honesty? Why would you trust him to tell you the truth when he deceived your first parents and caused all the suffering that ever happened on this planet? And what about all the people he plans to torment for eternity? Don't you care about those people?



Despite the fact that resurrection is mentioned unmistakably in scripture many times, many people pretend to themselves it won't happen because they don't want to think about it. That's called self-deception. Self-deception follows after the person has colluded with deception.

Don't be one of those. Think about it. Why waste eternity on ephemeral philosophies?

Be smarter than that, and let God bless you (forever). :)
Self-deception? That's how your beliefs look to me. So how do you know if you are deceived or not? That's what you need to answer. I hope you can be sufficiently smart to answer.

All the best,

Richard

duxrow
02-24-2013, 12:05 PM
Not both of them--just Adam..
Gen2:15: And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
2:16: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat :thumb:

David M
02-28-2013, 02:53 AM
Hello Richard, Rose, Charisma and all who are contributing to this thread.

Consider our friend David M. He does exactly the same thing and comes to diametrically opposed conclusions. He declares absolutely that the Bible teaches that JESUS IS NOT GOD! So who am I to believe? The answer doesn't matter, of course, since whatever conclusion I choose will be due to my own fallible reasoning. How than can the Bible be trusted as a "secure foundation" if believers can't even agree about what it means?

Since Richard has made reference to me, I will perhaps add to the thread I started “Jesus is not God” having some more to say on the subject which I will not go into here. As I read this thread, it appears to be the same old “same old” being spoken by Richard and Rose which invoked in me a sigh of despair. Nevertheless, I must keep plugging away in the hope that some of my comments sink in and that Richard and Rose might yet see the error of their thinking.

I have been less active on this forum recently than 12 months ago when there was lots I wanted to say, but having covered most everything I wanted to, there comes a point where it is a matter of going over the same ground. During the last several weeks, after I stumbled across a video on Youtube by Michael Rood in which he shows the ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah (which stand as a witness to the events that took place), I have been watching all his videos in order to see on what points of doctrine he and I might differ. Up to now, I have not come across anything fundamental on which to disagree with him. In his Shabbat Night Live shows in which he teaches and talks to guests, you might be amazed at the things that have happened to him and his guests who witness to the power of prayer. The synchronicities which have happened to Michael Rood and his guests are remarkable.

I have started a thread on the subject of ‘A Rood Awakening’ and would be happy to discuss some of the points that come out of his understanding and teaching on the truth of scripture. In connection with the relation between Jesus and God, Rood gives his understanding of Psalm 110 where David writes; The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
This has to be understood in connection the question Jesus asked; (Matt 22: 42) Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

Just to cite one comment from Rose’s reply;

In my opinion Paul is not trustworthy. He is a typical man of his time period who blamed the mythological figure Eve for causing mankind to fall into sin, thus justifying his belief that women should be in subjugation to men.

I fail to see the loving kindness.....
Rose uses the words; “In my opinion” and “I fail to see” and is the exact reason why we appear as “idiots” in the scriptural sense of the word when we do not have a proper understanding of the message God is telling us and in the history of God’s chosen people He has left on record for our learning. Understanding the basic instructions from God should leave no room for opinion; after all, Jesus was not giving us his opinion of God’s word, he was speaking as he heard from his Heavenly Father.

The apostle Paul knew what King David meant and how to answer Jesus’ question. The comment by Rose are to me (and to quote Richard) “are absurd”. Paul knew the scriptures and including the law (the Torah) extremely well. Paul was raised as a Pharisee under the tutorship of Gamaliel and Paul would have been able to recite the whole of the Torah from memory. Paul was not an “idiot” when it came to understanding and interpreting scripture. It is the “hard things” spoken about by Paul, which unlearned people do not understand and so they take the same scriptures and ”wrest to their own destruction”. Paul is totally a trustworthy man of whom we can say is like Richard and Rose whose zeal was/is misplaced. Paul was confronted by Jesus on the Road to Damascus (soon now to become a “ruinous heap” according to the prophecy of Isaiah) and Paul saw the error of his understanding and had to accept what he knew was fundamentally the truth. In the same way that Michael Rood was once a paid Baptist minister who was teaching the lies promugalted by the church. He knew in his heart that some things he was teaching were not correct. There were things that did not make sense and were in contradiction to what the Bible says. For forty years he has studied the gospels and has produced his book enttiled; 'The Chronological Gospels' (of which I would like to purchase a copy when available) and in which he has put all of the events of the ministry of Jesus in chronological order and about which he concludes that the ministry of Jesus lasted 70 weeks. Once his book is published and becomes available to the public, it will be worth reading through it to see where we agree or disagree with him. For the moment, we have many videos posted on Youtube and I highly recommend them for anyone who belongs to a mainstream Christian church. A revival in these last days might be happening and as Michael Rood is doing, he is going out into all the world to spread the gospel and the truth of God’s word.

To round off; I am very sceptical of those who teach for truth the doctrines of men, doctrines which have no foundation supported by scripture and for which Jesus accused the Pharisees for adding to the Torah. It was these non-Torah commands which Jesus broke which upset the Pharisees.

All the best,

David

Charisma
03-05-2013, 06:00 PM
Hello Rose,

Thank you for your reply to my post to you.


Hi Charisma,

What makes you think the Bible is the written word of god?

I know the Author. I recognise His voice, and I recognise the consistency of His revelation of His own value system, which is the only one which counts.


Why should I trust in an ancient book

No reason at all. But you should trust in the God who inspired its writing, because that would be beneficial to your longterm spiritual health.


Among the attributes of god described in the Bible are vengeance, jealousy, retribution and judgment. These qualities are manifest in very negative ways in humans and have led men to do horrendous things in the name of god.

Are you suggesting that God should change, because you don't like Him, and you don't like the men who are made in His image? Might that be because the first man made a fatal mistake which we all recognise every time someone we know, dies, and when we see the frailty of 'good and evil' in the world, we know that we are not as like God as originally He designed?

Perhaps man would never have discovered the 'vengeance, jealousy, retribution and judgment' of God, if he had obeyed Him from the start?


In my opinion Paul is not trustworthy.

Um... Why should anyone care what you think about Paul? You are displaying the very reason God sent His Son to die for us... We are irrevocably contrary to His thinking and desiring, unless we undergo a complete change of heart and mind, and get some fresh insight into His perspective.


He is a typical man of his time period who blamed the mythological figure Eve for causing mankind to fall into sin, thus justifying his belief that women should be in subjugation to men.

You have a rather important misunderstanding of Paul's teaching, there. At no time did either Paul or God hold Eve responsible for Adam falling into sin.

God's desire is that men should, now, take their place leading their families, starting with their taking responsibility for their woman.


If there is a creator god it certainly is not the god of the Bible.

You might think you know the God of the Bible well enough to make such a pronouncement, but you aren't describing Him very well at all. Your selective amnesia for all the good things He does, betrays your bias against Him. You've never really looked at the Bible with an open mind.


The god described in the pages of Scripture is a gender biased, misogynistic tyrant who demands worship and praise at the expense of the well being of humans.

Again you misunderstand Him. Worshipping God is a source of health and well-being to humans. Humans who do not worship Him are getting far less out of life than is available to those who worship Him in Spirit and truth as He requires. And being God He IS allowed to require whatever pleases Him. :D


Why should I put myself in bondage to the ideas of primitive Bronze Age men, who thought that women were inferior to them?

No reason at all. But there is every reason to entrust your soul to the only God who can save it from destruction.


I fail to see the loving kindness in the actions of a god who would decree that women be treated in such an immoral and abusive manner. There can be no love in a god who orders the slaughter of innocent women and children while commanding that NO MERCY be shown to them.

I don't think you're giving the humans who lived at that time, quite enough credit for the similarity to yours of the choices they made to not co-operate with God in their day. I mean, you're making a good attempt to emulate them. What reason is there that God should spare you in your rebellion?


It is because Richard and I care so much about truth that we could no longer believe the lie that the Bible is the word of god.

I could be wrong, but I think what you mean is that you got tired of pretending you believed scripture was the word of God, and you stopped pretending. That was an honest and brave decision - to stop deceiving yourselves that you were in a relationship with God that you were not. However, you won't find truth in the world. Jesus Christ is still the Truth.


The minute we opened our eyes to the truth it became clear that the Bible is no more than the ideas of primitive men who posited a god to account for what they couldn't understand.

Let me rearrange that statement, too, please. What you mean is that the moment you realised it was true that you don't believe the Bible, you looked for a human way to explain what you thought you then understood. You haven't actually set out to understand God at all, yet. But you could always give it a go while you have time. I'm sure you've enjoyed dissing His name and dissing His ways, never for a moment thinking you're only proving how right He always is.


The Flood story does no more then tell me that the biblical god is a genocidal maniac who thinks the solution to every problem is bloodshed, including the human sacrifice of his own son. Doesn't sound very loving or long suffering to me.

You're not getting it, are you? He's right! What other solution is there? Just give up on people altogether and let them do what they want? Isn't there enough misery and violence in the world because of what humans do independently of God? If God can't stop them, how are you going to?


What I think is interesting is that you don't realize the whole Garden story of Adam, Eve and the serpent is just an ancient mythological tale.

Well, I'm glad you're entertained. :D I think it's interesting that you are willing to spend your time eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, when you can see what that has done to the human race down the centuries, rather than trying to find out where the tree of life (truth) is now located, and beating a path to its.... um.... fruit. I mean, clearly the tree of life still exists, because the tree of 'knowledge' still exists. Maybe it will dawn on you one day that unless you find it, you are going to be yet another needless casualty at the hand of God's perfect justice.


Keep searching, sister. The truth is out there! :yo:

Funky1096
03-05-2013, 07:08 PM
"The answer of your master...found in the pages of Scripture, whose authorship is that of primitive men. It says the thief comes to kill and destroy, yet your master allows this thief to run rampant amongst men. Your master says that he has come to give mankind abundant life, yet at every turn he allows life to be taken away in the most horrendous fashion, when only a word from his mouth would bring forth legions of angels. How can I trust his words?"

Whew I almost burst out laughing at that statement.
(Hint hint) spiritual life vs spiritual death or physical life vs physical death. Hmm Jesus gave us the ability to repent through him for our SPIRIT bodies no not physical ones but our SPIRIT ones. So the life he abundantly gives is SPIRITUAL redemption from the second death.

Funky1096
03-05-2013, 07:20 PM
"i will have my back turned just for a bit to talk rith R&R, so Ricky, don't pull kathy's pony tails
...and Charis'? Please do not spit on the Lotus' feet or Bobby either. Besides, it's not ladylike...
...and none of such doings is proper ettiquette
...AND YUR MUMS AND DADS WILL BE NOTIFIED IF ANY OF YOU ACT OUT!"

When did Timmy become possessed? Or is he just communicating in a tounge?

Rose
03-05-2013, 08:20 PM
Hello Rose,

Thank you for your reply to my post to you.

I know the Author. I recognise His voice, and I recognise the consistency of His revelation of His own value system, which is the only one which counts.

No reason at all. But you should trust in the God who inspired its writing, because that would be beneficial to your longterm spiritual health.

Hi Charisma,

I totally understand your conception of "knowing" god, I too knew god long before I became a Christian. When I found Jesus and became a Christian I automatically mapped the god I knew since childhood onto the god presented in the Bible. Now the question I ask you is why should I trust that the god you know, or the god I knew as a child is the god who inspired the Bible? I'm not debating the existence of a creator deity, rather my main point is that the god presented in the Bible is a male bias masculine deity created in the minds of men and patterned after their male egos.



Are you suggesting that God should change, because you don't like Him, and you don't like the men who are made in His image? Might that be because the first man made a fatal mistake which we all recognise every time someone we know, dies, and when we see the frailty of 'good and evil' in the world, we know that we are not as like God as originally He designed?

Perhaps man would never have discovered the 'vengeance, jealousy, retribution and judgment' of God, if he had obeyed Him from the start?

If as you say man is created in the image of god, does it not stand to reason that mans image should reflect the qualities of god such as vengeance, jealousy, and retribution also. As far as god changing, the Bible portrays him as a continually changing deity just like the whims of men change with the seasons.



Um... Why should anyone care what you think about Paul? You are displaying the very reason God sent His Son to die for us... We are irrevocably contrary to His thinking and desiring, unless we undergo a complete change of heart and mind, and get some fresh insight into His perspective.


You have a rather important misunderstanding of Paul's teaching, there. At no time did either Paul or God hold Eve responsible for Adam falling into sin.

God's desire is that men should, now, take their place leading their families, starting with their taking responsibility for their woman.

Paul said that because the woman was deceived and thus in the transgression, she was to learn in silence and subjection to men not being allowed to teach a man.
1Tim.2:11-13 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


Why do you suppose that god decided to only speak to men about all the rules, and laws that women were to obey instead of directly speaking to women? Sounds pretty convenient for men to me...all the natural inclinations that men have to dominate and control women are granted them by their god.



You might think you know the God of the Bible well enough to make such a pronouncement, but you aren't describing Him very well at all. Your selective amnesia for all the good things He does, betrays your bias against Him. You've never really looked at the Bible with an open mind.

Quite the contrary...because my mind is totally open to all things the Bible says I can see the good and the bad quite clearly.

Let me give you an example of what I mean: suppose a man cares for and loves his family, then one day he takes a gun a kills them all...would you say he was a good person? Of course not! That is sort of the way I view the god of the Bible, no matter how much good god supposedly does the immorality that is attributed to him classifies him as an evil, immoral god.



Again you misunderstand Him. Worshipping God is a source of health and well-being to humans. Humans who do not worship Him are getting far less out of life than is available to those who worship Him in Spirit and truth as He requires. And being God He IS allowed to require whatever pleases Him. :D

Not for the humans of the Bible who were killed because they didn't worship Yahweh. And what about all the multitudes of people who were tortured or lost their lives because Bible believers inflicted harm upon them because they didn't believe in or worship Yahweh properly? Christianity has been responsible for a tremendous loss of well-being amongst humans, especially women.




I fail to see the loving kindness in the actions of a god who would decree that women be treated in such an immoral and abusive manner. There can be no love in a god who orders the slaughter of innocent women and children while commanding that NO MERCY be shown to them.I don't think you're giving the humans who lived at that time, quite enough credit for the similarity to yours of the choices they made to not co-operate with God in their day. I mean, you're making a good attempt to emulate them. What reason is there that God should spare you in your rebellion?

Are you excusing god or the authors of the Bible for their horrendous, abusive, and immoral actions recorded in Scripture? I'm sure not!



I could be wrong, but I think what you mean is that you got tired of pretending you believed scripture was the word of God, and you stopped pretending. That was an honest and brave decision - to stop deceiving yourselves that you were in a relationship with God that you were not. However, you won't find truth in the world. Jesus Christ is still the Truth.


Let me rearrange that statement, too, please. What you mean is that the moment you realised it was true that you don't believe the Bible, you looked for a human way to explain what you thought you then understood. You haven't actually set out to understand God at all, yet. But you could always give it a go while you have time. I'm sure you've enjoyed dissing His name and dissing His ways, never for a moment thinking you're only proving how right He always is.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong! I absolutely believed the Bible was authored under the inspiration of god and it never was my intention to leave the faith...in fact it was totally unexpected.

Truth is found whenever one is open to receive unbiased evidence without a motive. My search began with a sincere desire to find answers, never in my wildest dreams would I have ever thought my faith was hanging in the balance ready to depart.




You're not getting it, are you? He's right! What other solution is there? Just give up on people altogether and let them do what they want? Isn't there enough misery and violence in the world because of what humans do independently of God? If God can't stop them, how are you going to?

Are you saying god is unable to stop human misery and violence, when according to the Bible he is the cause of much of it?


Well, I'm glad you're entertained. :D I think it's interesting that you are willing to spend your time eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, when you can see what that has done to the human race down the centuries, rather than trying to find out where the tree of life (truth) is now located, and beating a path to its.... um.... fruit. I mean, clearly the tree of life still exists, because the tree of 'knowledge' still exists. Maybe it will dawn on you one day that unless you find it, you are going to be yet another needless casualty at the hand of God's perfect justice.


Keep searching, sister. The truth is out there! :yo:

I certainly will keep searching :D So far my search has been bountifully rewarding...everywhere I look with an open mind I find truth in abundance. My soul feels free and full of life...I can love all humans equally no matter what god they do or do not believe in.

Thank you for taking time to chat,
Rose

Rose
03-05-2013, 08:40 PM
The answer of your master...found in the pages of Scripture, whose authorship is that of primitive men. It says the thief comes to kill and destroy, yet your master allows this thief to run rampant amongst men. Your master says that he has come to give mankind abundant life, yet at every turn he allows life to be taken away in the most horrendous fashion, when only a word from his mouth would bring forth legions of angels. How can I trust his words?

Whew I almost burst out laughing at that statement.
(Hint hint) spiritual life vs spiritual death or physical life vs physical death. Hmm Jesus gave us the ability to repent through him for our SPIRIT bodies no not physical ones but our SPIRIT ones. So the life he abundantly gives is SPIRITUAL redemption from the second death.

I guess it is pretty hilarious that people actually believe the god of the Bible is trustworthy...:lol:

Funky1096
03-05-2013, 08:43 PM
"If as you say man is created in the image of god, does it not stand to reason that mans image should reflect the qualities of god such as vengeance, jealousy, and retribution also. As far as god changing, the Bible portrays him as a continually changing deity just like the whims of men change with the seasons."

Blaw blaw blaw go read post 5 here http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?3617-Complexity


And ofcourse u forget to mention the feminine side of God grace, mercy, chance for forgiveness, love, etc.


"Paul said that because the woman was deceived and thus in the transgression, she was to learn in silence and subjection to men not being allowed to teach a man.
1Tim.2:11-13 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

You get that one spot on.

Eve sinned Adam followed.
1 Timothy 2:11-15 KJV
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. "

So Paul essentially established church order. Spiritual application here(hint hint).


"Are you excusing god or the authors of the Bible for their horrendous, abusive, and immoral actions recorded in Scripture? I'm sure not!"

Well since your "morals" are not even of faith then XD to you.

God did not say "do not kill, enslave, steal from, or rape, dogs(unsaved heathen who can't be saved wont be saved and will not live forever) actually he said quite the opposite.

He LET and ORDERED the Israelites do so numerous occasions.

But in today's government there is laws against all of that so we obey them like if God himself said so since the higher powers are ordained.

Ofcourse you refuse to accept all of http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?3623-Salvation-spirit-flesh-AND-soul

Or for that matter challenge it so stfu.

Richard Amiel McGough
03-05-2013, 08:51 PM
Hey there Charisma, :yo:



I know the Author. I recognise His voice, and I recognise the consistency of His revelation of His own value system, which is the only one which counts.

How do you discern between your own thoughts and imaginations and "his voice"? Other people think they hear "his voice" but they contradict things you say. So how do you protect yourself from falling into a similar delusion as those you can tell are deluded?



No reason at all. But you should trust in the God who inspired its writing, because that would be beneficial to your longterm spiritual health.

And that's what the Muslims say. And the Hindus. And the Jews. So it doesn't seem to be a good answer to the question.



You have a rather important misunderstanding of Paul's teaching, there. At no time did either Paul or God hold Eve responsible for Adam falling into sin.

That's not correct. Paul explicitly blames Eve:

1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Note thet he uses the "fact" that Eve was deceived as a reason women should not teach.



What reason is there that God should spare you in your rebellion?

Why is God so hung up on demanding OBEDIENCE???? If any human acted that way we'd think they were psychologically disturbed.



I could be wrong, but I think what you mean is that you got tired of pretending you believed scripture was the word of God, and you stopped pretending. That was an honest and brave decision - to stop deceiving yourselves that you were in a relationship with God that you were not. However, you won't find truth in the world. Jesus Christ is still the Truth.

That's a HUGE error. Rose and I were every bit as much "Christian" as anyone who has ever professed the faith. Here is how I spoke of my faith during the decade I was working on the Bible Wheel. I identified myself as a “Bible-believing Christian” in no uncertain terms. For example, here is how I described myself in my old FAQ (http://www.biblewheel.com/FAQ/FAQ.php) (which remains on the old version of my site for historical purposes):
Are you a Christian? Protestant? Catholic?
Praise God, I am a man saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesian 2:8). I am a non-denominational blood-bought Bible-believing Trinitarian Christian. I believe that the true “faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3) is well stated in the early creeds of the church that Christ founded.
Likewise, here is my testimony about the purpose of my website on the old homepage (http://www.biblewheel.com/original.php):
To this end I labour, to glorify the Triune God; to glorify the Father Almighty, Creator of all, to glorify His Son Jesus Christ my Saviour and Hope, and to glorify the Giver of all divine gifts, my Comforter, Guide, Teacher and Friend, God the Holy Spirit. To You be the glory, thrice holy blessed God of Eternity! To You be the glory, now and forevermore. Amen. Amen. Amen.
And here are the thanks I gave to Christ on my old About (http://www.biblewheel.com/About/Intro.php) page:
I remain eternally grateful to my Lord Jesus Christ, the King of the Universe, for shedding His Light upon me and guiding my path – usually without my knowledge – and giving me both the burning desire and the ability to proclaim the neverending wonders of His Holy Word. Oh! The wonders of His Grace! Had He left me to myself, doubtless I’d be dead or wandering aimless and lost through this dark world. Thank you, my Lord!
To suggest that either Rose or I were not real Christians or that we did not "really" believe the Bible is demonstrably false.

All the best,

Richard

Funky1096
03-05-2013, 08:53 PM
Edited

Wait a second
"That's a HUGE error. Rose and I were every bit as much "Christian" as anyone who has ever professed the faith. Here is how I spoke of my faith during the decade I was working on the Bible Wheel"

Me and whomever charisma is have a genuine concern for your repentance.


Galations 2:4 KJV
"And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage"



"How do you discern between your own thoughts and imaginations and "his voice"? Other people think they hear "his voice" but they contradict things you say. So how do you protect yourself from falling into a similar delusion as those you can tell are deluded?"

Ah great question.

1 John 4:1-5 KJV
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them"


Why do you think I kept asking for confessions?

Charisma
03-12-2013, 09:25 AM
Hi Richard,


I'm really glad you feel free to speak you mind. I will respond in kind.

Great! :)


Just look at the endless debates between Christians about what it really means.

Depending on your definition of 'Christian', it does look like this. Indeed, many of those arguing have no idea what it means!


Equally devout believers come do diametrically opposed conclusions. Why is that?

I think 'diametrically opposed' is a bit of an exaggeration. If you think about such extreme differences in the light of what the apostles say the gospel is about, then there will be a point of separation away from the written word which helps to determine whether the emphasis of the argument is on God's thoughts or man's. We already know God and man are not on the same wavelength, so this distinction helps define what is being 'devout'ly 'believe'd in.


Because the Bible is a very ambiguous book

Yes. God has His message - principles and themes - embedded in His word at many levels, and directed at men of differing levels and of differing opinions about themselves. The reader may become aware of both agreements and conflicts in both the natural layers and the spiritual layers. By this means, God can reach all men with something which is good for them, and they can grow to greater stature and insight as they partake of His truth.


filled with contradictions

Now you're exaggerating! There are apparent contradictions, but there is also a great flow and much repetition. How thick do men have to be to miss the whole message completely? Actually, there are two sides to this point. There are men who see with their intellect what the gospel is, and reject it, and men who don't see it clearly at all, but they know they're on to something; and God leads them deeper and deeper and deeper, until finally they can look the intellectual in the eye and say, 'I see Him; He has revealed Himself to me.' That outcome is open to all men and women and children.


so every interpreter must rely on their own judgment to determine what it "really" means.

No doubt the natural man approaches scripture with this idea in his imagination, but it's clear from the places where the law had been re-discovered and re-instituted, and from psalms, that there are men who understand it simply as God opens their ears and eyes upon hearing it. These men do use their own 'judgment' to respond to God, and they understand that God's word has immense power.

Hebrews 1:3 Who [Christ] being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


So the Bible is not any kind of "foundation" at all.

Stop right here. There is nothing wrong with the Bible. The problems lie in the hearts and minds of the people reading it. Either they are willing to accept what God says about them, or they resist His word. These reactions are equally valid, but naturally lead to opposite outcomes in the reader.

Acts 7:48 - 54 is a good example of an observable outcome of resisting, while Acts 9:6, of accepting.


You are relying on your own interpretation

No, I'm not. I'm relying on the cohesiveness of what God reveals to me (with the help of His Spirit), in me and through me, of His word in action.


which is based on many baseless assumptions,

This is your opinion. God's opinion of people who seek Him to know Him, is that 'all these things' (necessities of life) 'will be added' as required.


the most obvious being your idea that the "Bible" is the "word of God."

Well, I'm hardly the first person on earth to make that claim for scripture, am I? I make it, though, because I also find their testimony to be true. I'm not parroting an opinion! I have tested my opinions against God's numerous times, and find God's word stronger than mine every time!


The Bible doesn't even define itself.

Really, does that matter? Have you ever heard a cup stating 'I'm a cup'? I hope not! (But if you're in doubt about its effectiveness, you can put a drink in there and see if it delivers it to your mouth (with a little help from one of your arms and hands), and you can decide whether someone else had a good idea or not. If the drink spills everywhere and soaks what you're wearing, you might think it was a failure, because it didn't preserve the drink.)


Is the Catholic Bible with the apocrypha the "word of God"? If not, why not? Others think it is. By what authority do you contradict them?

This question is a digression. Let's just stick to... that I believe the Bible is the word of God. Any authority I have, comes from my relationship with Him.


Your idea that the Bible is "a secure foundation for understanding" is demonstrably false.

You might conclude that the machinery people call 'a car' is useless, if you simply look at it and don't attempt to operate it correctly, but you could not be accused of thinking straight, if you had not filled it with fuel, fired it up and driven it according to the governing principles of road safety and driving. The way you talk about the Bible these days is a great disappointment, because there you have a powerful vehicle for transporting you into the presence of God and revealing to you His mind and desires, which you refuse to engage in a manner which will make it work as designed.

That said, I am heartily glad that you continue to make the Bible Wheel book and website available, as they have the potential to bless many seekers.


Your suggestion that Rose and I are "lining up with the one who first questioned God's word" is a very nasty way of implying that we are Satanic merely because we have spoken truth.

Richard, there is a not-so-subtle difference between referring to your own opinion as 'truth', and accepting God's word as 'truth'.

What happened in the garden when Adam accepted Satan's offer to 'become as gods' in terms of 'knowing good and evil', is, at this present time, the mindset which you are operating under, bound as you are for a final and permanent death - just as long as you keep agreeing with Satan's premise that 'knowing good and evil' and dying permanently is a desirable outcome for a being who has the potential to experience the effect of the blessing God commanded: LIFE FOR EVERMORE. Now you know that Jesus Christ spoke against Satan's desired outcome, and not only did He prophesy that they would not 'come into condemnation', nor 'see death' but they would 'pass' 'into life' through believing on Him whom the Father had sent.

Satan is sick of this message. If there is one piece of truth which he hates, it is that Jesus Christ took the keys of death and hell from him for ever and for good, with the sole intention of restoring to fellowship with God those people who wholeheartedly espouse His values again.


In biblical terms, this is like blaspheming the "spirit of truth" - the Holy Spirit.

Hardly! The Holy Spirit is brooding over your life, no doubt, but He is not the Author of your anti-God statements. You have to take responsibility for them.


If we have written anything that is not true, your duty is to expose our errors, not insinuate that we are like the Devil.

It's not clear why you think I should take responsibility for your errors, although I read what you say. If you don't want to be associated with the Devil, then it's up to you to distance yourself from his thinking, his rhetoric, his attitude to God and His word, and to stop sounding like one of his children.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.


If you're really searching for 'the Truth', Richard, finding it has the potential to remove from you everything of worldly esteem. The two are mutually exclusive and there is great peace in letting all natural striving come to an end in Christ's death for you. Then you can really begin to LIVE!


This is all I have time to reply right now. Hopefully, I'll address more of your points in the coming days.

heb13-13
03-12-2013, 12:49 PM
That was an outstanding post, Charisma. The analogy of the "cup" and "car" works very well.


It's not clear why you think I should take responsibility for your errors, although I read what you say. If you don't want to be associated with the Devil, then it's up to you to distance yourself from his thinking, his rhetoric, his attitude to God and His word, and to stop sounding like one of his children.

Yes, when man fell, he became a blameshifter (after the character of his new father).

Wisdom in your post for all us.

I am really edified by the way you think, you "irrational, lunatic", you!! :winking0071:

Rick

Richard Amiel McGough
03-12-2013, 02:43 PM
Just look at the endless debates between Christians about what it really means.
Depending on your definition of 'Christian', it does look like this. Indeed, many of those arguing have no idea what it means!

That's exactly correct. And since the members all all the wildly contradictory Christianities (Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, JW, SDA, Calvinist, Arminian, The Way Int'l, Christadelphian, etc., etc., etc. ...) define themselves as the "true Christians" and there is no objective authority to define which definition is correct, the term is rendered meaningless.

Many of the more serous Christians don't call themselves by that name because there is so much confusion about what it means.




Equally devout believers come do diametrically opposed conclusions. Why is that?
I think 'diametrically opposed' is a bit of an exaggeration. If you think about such extreme differences in the light of what the apostles say the gospel is about, then there will be a point of separation away from the written word which helps to determine whether the emphasis of the argument is on God's thoughts or man's. We already know God and man are not on the same wavelength, so this distinction helps define what is being 'devout'ly 'believe'd in.

When one group (Protestants) say that the other group (Catholics) is ANTICHRIST, I think "diametrically opposed" perfectly accurate.

Your distinction between "God thoughts or man's" is literally meaningless because you have no objective way to discern between the two. The only thing you have to go on is your own fallible human opinion.




filled with contradictions
Now you're exaggerating! There are apparent contradictions, but there is also a great flow and much repetition. How thick do men have to be to miss the whole message completely? Actually, there are two sides to this point. There are men who see with their intellect what the gospel is, and reject it, and men who don't see it clearly at all, but they know they're on to something; and God leads them deeper and deeper and deeper, until finally they can look the intellectual in the eye and say, 'I see Him; He has revealed Himself to me.' That outcome is open to all men and women and children.

I agree that there is a "great flow" to the Bible. This is one of the things that has always impressed me, especially since the flow manifests clearly on the Bible Wheel. But that flow does not contradict the fact that the book is also filled with contradictions. It's no "exaggeration." The Bible is literally filled with contradictions from beginning to end. Yes, there are many "apparent" contradictions that can be explained but it's impossible to solve them all. For example, the four accounts of the passion week are absolutely impossible to reconcile. Likewise, the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke are totally contradictory and irreconcilable. Likewise, the two creation stories are irreconcilable. Etc.

It is odd that Christians feel that they must deny the Bible has contradictions. Why not just admit what the book really says. I mean, if you REALLY believe it is from God, then why do you not accept it as given by God? Why did God put so many "apparent" contradictions in his book if he didn't want it to look like it has contradictions? I think the HIGHEST view of Scripture is to accept it as given, warts, contradictions, and all. If you can't do that, then you contradict your claim to believe it is God's word.




so every interpreter must rely on their own judgment to determine what it "really" means.
No doubt the natural man approaches scripture with this idea in his imagination, but it's clear from the places where the law had been re-discovered and re-instituted, and from psalms, that there are men who understand it simply as God opens their ears and eyes upon hearing it. These men do use their own 'judgment' to respond to God, and they understand that God's word has immense power.

Hebrews 1:3 Who [Christ] being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

I understand your point, but how does that help? My point remains: Every interpreter must rely on their own judgment. That's what you are doing when you approve of an interpretation as "from God." You are using your own fallible human judgment to declare what the Bible means. It doesn't help if you have a subjective sense that your interpretation is really "God's interpretation" because that's what every cult leader has done for the last 2000 years.




So the Bible is not any kind of "foundation" at all.
Stop right here. There is nothing wrong with the Bible. The problems lie in the hearts and minds of the people reading it. Either they are willing to accept what God says about them, or they resist His word. These reactions are equally valid, but naturally lead to opposite outcomes in the reader.

Acts 7:48 - 54 is a good example of an observable outcome of resisting, while Acts 9:6, of accepting.

Are you saying that anyone who disagrees with your personal interpretation of the Bible is "resisting" God's Word? If not, then maybe you are the one "resisting" when you reject the Mormons or the JWs? How do you know which is the correct interpretation?

Why do you say there is nothing wrong with the Bible? How do you know that? How do you even know what books are supposed to be in the Bible? And what about all the textual variations? What about the words that have been added? What about the whole sections that have been added like the various long endings of Mark?




You are relying on your own interpretation
No, I'm not. I'm relying on the cohesiveness of what God reveals to me (with the help of His Spirit), in me and through me, of His word in action.

And who is judge of that "cohesiveness" if not you?

The idea that the correct interpretation can be determined by "cohesiveness" (or more commonly "harmony") leads to deep delusion. I'm sorry to use that word, but it is very important in this case. Harold Camping said that he taught nothing but "The Bible alone, and in its entirety." He said that everyone could his interpretations were correct because they were the only way to HARMONIZE the text. Of course, his "harmonies" were the most ludicrous exercises in word twisting I've ever seen. He often would twist the text to say the exact opposite of what it really said. But that didn't stop millions of people from believing his ravings were God's Own Truth. They gave him $80 MILLION DOLLARS in just five years from 2005-2009. He said that the Bible declared that the Rapture would happen on May 21, 2011, and the only way he could be wrong was if the Bible was wrong. That's where "harmonizing" the Bible gets you.

The real problem with "harmonizing" the Bible is that it is very subjective. One man's harmony is another man's bedlam. What objective standards do we use to discern between true vs. false harmonies?

My statement stands: You are relying on your own interpretation.




the most obvious being your idea that the "Bible" is the "word of God."
Well, I'm hardly the first person on earth to make that claim for scripture, am I? I make it, though, because I also find their testimony to be true. I'm not parroting an opinion! I have tested my opinions against God's numerous times, and find God's word stronger than mine every time!

I doubt you've ever really "tested your opinions against God's." I get the impression that you begin with the assumption that the Bible is God's Word and then filter everything through a very strong confirmation bias that eliminates anything that contradicts your assumption.




The Bible doesn't even define itself.
Really, does that matter? Have you ever heard a cup stating 'I'm a cup'? I hope not! (But if you're in doubt about its effectiveness, you can put a drink in there and see if it delivers it to your mouth (with a little help from one of your arms and hands), and you can decide whether someone else had a good idea or not. If the drink spills everywhere and soaks what you're wearing, you might think it was a failure, because it didn't preserve the drink.)

So do you accept the Catholic Bible with the apocrypha as the Word of God? If not, why not? How about the Book of Mormon? They say they believe the Bible, and the Book of Mormon is another testimony of Christ. Why reject it?

The real issue is why do you begin with the assumption that the Bible is the word of God in the first place? Who told you that you should believe that? You obviously didn't read it in the Bible because the Bible neither defines itself nor refers to itself as a whole. (You can interpret Rev 22:19 that way if you want, but that doesn't solve the problem because the Catholic Bible also has that verse).

All I'm trying to help you see is that your beliefs are not actually based on the Bible. You have received traditions about the Bible itself that are not contained in the Bible. Why do you believe those traditions? Do you know who started them? Are those men trustworthy? Should you stake your SOUL on those men who made up the religion you follow?




Is the Catholic Bible with the apocrypha the "word of God"? If not, why not? Others think it is. By what authority do you contradict them?
This question is a digression. Let's just stick to... that I believe the Bible is the word of God. Any authority I have, comes from my relationship with Him.

How can you say that questions about the identity of the BIBLE is a "digression"? If you faith is based on the Bible then this question seems to be of the essence.




Your idea that the Bible is "a secure foundation for understanding" is demonstrably false.
You might conclude that the machinery people call 'a car' is useless, if you simply look at it and don't attempt to operate it correctly, but you could not be accused of thinking straight, if you had not filled it with fuel, fired it up and driven it according to the governing principles of road safety and driving. The way you talk about the Bible these days is a great disappointment, because there you have a powerful vehicle for transporting you into the presence of God and revealing to you His mind and desires, which you refuse to engage in a manner which will make it work as designed.

That said, I am heartily glad that you continue to make the Bible Wheel book and website available, as they have the potential to bless many seekers.

The car analogy is not accurate because we can tell when a person is properly driving a car, whereas there is no way to tell if someone is properly "driving" (using/interpreting) the Bible.

If you want your analogy to work, you will have to state how we can objectively discern between truth and falsehood in Bible interpretation.



This is all I have time to reply right now. Hopefully, I'll address more of your points in the coming days.
I hope so! I am enjoying the conversation and I appreciate your effort.

All the best,

Richard

Charisma
03-12-2013, 03:06 PM
Hi Richard,

This is a kind of PS to my earlier post. I've been thinking about your distaste for the way I 'hear' your stance against scripture, and it set me thinking about the kind of differences I would like to hear if you want to be perceived as one who is still genuinely seeking God, rather than constructing a god in the image of the education system under which you've grown up. (I know you are not the only person to have done this, so you're not alone.)

There are two kinds of people (broadly speaking). Those who know and pursue the greater knowledge of God, who say:

Psalm 27:8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face;
my heart said unto thee, Thy face, Lord, will I seek.

Psalm 63:1 O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee:
my soul thirsteth for thee,
my flesh longeth for thee
in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is;

and those who don't. Thankfully there is usually time to draw back from this situation, as Paul states in Romans 2:4

Psalm 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity:
there is none that doeth good.
2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge?
who eat up my people as they eat bread:
they have not called upon God.

Richard Amiel McGough
03-12-2013, 03:22 PM
Hi Richard,

This is a kind of PS to my earlier post. I've been thinking about your distaste for the way I 'hear' your stance against scripture, and it set me thinking about the kind of differences I would like to hear if you want to be perceived as one who is still genuinely seeking God, rather than constructing a god in the image of the education system under which you've grown up. (I know you are not the only person to have done this, so you're not alone.)

There are two kinds of people (broadly speaking). Those who know and pursue the greater knowledge of God, who say:

Psalm 27:8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face;
my heart said unto thee, Thy face, Lord, will I seek.

Psalm 63:1 O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee:
my soul thirsteth for thee,
my flesh longeth for thee
in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is;

and those who don't. Thankfully there is usually time to draw back from this situation, as Paul states in Romans 2:4

Psalm 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity:
there is none that doeth good.
2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge?
who eat up my people as they eat bread:
they have not called upon God.
Hey there Charisma,

Do you think I am a fool for not believing in Allah? Apollo? Zeus?

Why then do you think I'm a fool for not believing in Yahweh? He looks every bit as irrational and mythological as those other gods made in the image of the MALE EGO by the primitive tribes of those ancient times.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
03-12-2013, 05:13 PM
Psalm 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity:
there is none that doeth good.
2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge?
who eat up my people as they eat bread:
they have not called upon God.
Hey there Charisma,

Your application of that passage to "unbelievers" reveals a profound failure to understand the Gospel. Paul applied that passage to ALL HUMANS:
Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 ¶ But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Do you see what you have done? You have taken a passage that Paul used to show that ALL HAVE SINNED and you applied it only to people you think are your enemies. You have set yourself up as the righteous judge over people who (for very good reasons) don't think that your religion is true. That is fundamentally unrighteous. Paul was speaking specifically to YOU when he said, in effect, "Are you better than Richard and Rose?"

This is what religion does to people. It makes them think that they are RIGHTEOUS while anyone who disagrees with them is of the devil.

L67
03-12-2013, 05:36 PM
Hi Richard,

This is a kind of PS to my earlier post. I've been thinking about your distaste for the way I 'hear' your stance against scripture, and it set me thinking about the kind of differences I would like to hear if you want to be perceived as one who is still genuinely seeking God, rather than constructing a god in the image of the education system under which you've grown up. (I know you are not the only person to have done this, so you're not alone.)

There are two kinds of people (broadly speaking). Those who know and pursue the greater knowledge of God, who say:


and those who don't. Thankfully there is usually time to draw back from this situation, as Paul states in Romans 2:4



I know this was to Richard but I wanted to ask you a few questions.

You say you "know". How do you know you haven't been deceived? I want to show you what some of the earliest church fathers had to say. These are the men by which you get your traditions you believe in today.



"I will only mention the Apostle Paul. ... He, then, if anyone, ought to be calumniated; we should speak thus to him: ‘The proofs which you have used against the Jews and against other heretics bear a different meaning in their own contexts to that which they bear in your Epistles.

We see passages taken captive by your pen and pressed into service to win you a victory, which in volumes from which they are taken have no controversial bearing at all ... the line so often adopted by strong men in controversy – of justifying the means by the result."

– St. Jerome, Epistle to Pammachus (xlviii, 13; N&PNF. vi, 72-73)

How about Eusebius in the 32nd Chapter of his 12th Book of Evangelical Preparation:



"How it may be Lawful and Fitting to use Falsehood as a Medicine, and for the Benefit of those who Want to be Deceived."



Here is more from Eusebius:

"We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."

– Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2.



Clement of Alexandria- one of the earliest church fathers: :

"Not all true things are the truth, nor should that truth which merely seems true according to human opinions be preferred to the true truth, that according to the faith."

– Clement (quoted by M. Smith, Clement of Alexandria, p446)


John Chrysostom: "Do you see the advantage of deceit? ...

For great is the value of deceit, provided it be not introduced with a mischievous intention. In fact action of this kind ought not to be called deceit, but rather a kind of good management, cleverness and skill, capable of finding out ways where resources fail, and making up for the defects of the mind ...

And often it is necessary to deceive, and to do the greatest benefits by means of this device, whereas he who has gone by a straight course has done great mischief to the person whom he has not deceived."

– Chrysostom, Treatise On The Priesthood, Book 1.



Faustus- Manichean bishop: "Many things have been inserted by our ancestors in the speeches of our Lord which, though put forth under his name, agree not with his faith; especially since – as already it has been often proved – these things were written not by Christ, nor [by] his apostles, but a long while after their assumption, by I know not what sort of half Jews, not even agreeing with themselves, who made up their tale out of reports and opinions merely, and yet, fathering the whole upon the names of the apostles of the Lord or on those who were supposed to follow the apostles, they maliciously pretended that they had written their lies and conceits according to them."




Ignatius Loyola -founder of the Society of Jesus[Jesuits]: "We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."



Saint Jerome: 'To confute the opposer ... one argues as one pleases, saying one thing while one means another ... Origen, Eusebius [et al] write at great length ... Sometimes it is true, they are compelled to say not what they think but what is useful.'

– St Jerome, c. 380.



– Celsus (On The True Doctrine, c178 AD): 'Clearly the Christians have used ... myths ... in fabricating the story of Jesus' birth ... It is clear to me that the writings of the Christians are a lie and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction.'

His work was so damaging to Christians that they destroyed every copy he ever wrote.




So how do you "know" anything, when it is clear the church lied to suit their purpose? These men and men like them are where your traditions come from. They are not credible and neither is the Bible.

Sorry you are not dealing with any "word of God". You are dealing with fiction fabricated by the church for ultimate control over the people. http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/lying.htm