PDA

View Full Version : Sarah's Key



Ps 27:1
01-29-2012, 08:24 PM
This may be an ever expanding mathematical riddle. You solve one, we get to move on to the next level.:D

The history of the 3x3 magic square goes way back. Chinese legends concerning the pre-historic Emperor Yu (夏禹) tell of the Lo Shu, often in connection with the Ho Tu (河圖) figure and 8 trigrams. In ancient China there was a huge deluge: the people offered sacrifices to the god of one of the flooding rivers, the Lo river (洛水), to try to calm his anger. A magical turtle emerged from the water with the curious and decidedly unnatural (for a turtle shell) Lo Shu pattern on its shell: circular dots giving unary (base 1) representations of the integers one through nine are arranged in a three-by-three grid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lo_Shu

There is only one unique solution to the 3x3 magic square. Since we have 10 fingers (digita = Latin), wouldn't it be nice to find a home for the 0 digit?:D Tell me where you think is the best place for the 0 in relation to the other nine and why.

Happy sleuthing,
Steve

Richard Amiel McGough
01-29-2012, 08:30 PM
This may be an ever expanding mathematical riddle. You solve one, we get to move on to the next level.:D

How exactly do we know when we've "solved" of riddle that hasn't been stated? It sounds like the riddle has itself become a riddle! Riddles within riddles ... guess we are ensured of eternal fun, anyway. That is, if you like puzzles and all.



The history of the 3x3 magic square goes way back. Chinese legends concerning the pre-historic Emperor Yu (夏禹) tell of the Lo Shu, often in connection with the Ho Tu (河圖) figure and 8 trigrams. In ancient China there was a huge deluge: the people offered sacrifices to the god of one of the flooding rivers, the Lo river (洛水), to try to calm his anger. A magical turtle emerged from the water with the curious and decidedly unnatural (for a turtle shell) Lo Shu pattern on its shell: circular dots giving unary (base 1) representations of the integers one through nine are arranged in a three-by-three grid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lo_Shu

There is only one unique solution to the 3x3 magic square. Since we have 10 fingers (digita = Latin), wouldn't it be nice to find a home for the 0 digit?:D Tell me where you think is the best place for the 0 in relation to the other nine and why.

Happy sleuthing,
Steve
Hummm ... I'm clueless on this one. Why would it be nice to find a place for the zero? I guess we could put it everywhere, in the form of n + 0 for each of the squares. Or we could use n x 0 and have fun with a magic square where all the rows, columns, and diagonals sum to Zero! The Void! How Buddhist of us, eh?

Ps 27:1
01-29-2012, 08:57 PM
How exactly do we know when we've "solved" of riddle that hasn't been stated? It sounds like the riddle has itself become a riddle! Riddles within riddles ... guess we are ensured of eternal fun, anyway. That is, if you like puzzles and all.

Don't rain on the parade just yet.:lol: I like that: "The riddle has itself become a riddle!":hysterical:



Hummm ... I'm clueless on this one. Why would it be nice to find a place for the zero? I guess we could put it everywhere, in the form of n + 0 for each of the squares. Or we could use n x 0 and have fun with a magic square where all the rows, columns, and diagonals sum to Zero! The Void! How Buddhist of us, eh?

Are you doing this already?:sos::lol:

Answers: It's a riddle, no, and no.:D

Steve

Richard Amiel McGough
01-29-2012, 09:12 PM
Don't rain on the parade just yet.:lol: I like that: "The riddle has itself become a riddle!":hysterical:

Yeah ... me said a funny!



Are you doing this already?:sos::lol:

Answers: It's a riddle, no, and no.:D

Steve
I don't know ... maybe. Maybe not. Do I get a clue?

The 3 x 3 magic square is cool. All the even numbers are in the corners, and the five odd numbers make the pattern of a cross like in the Chinese representation of the number 5 in the center of the five odd numbers in their magic square:

279

278

The solid circles are the evens, the unfilled circles are the odds.

All the numbers opposite each other add to ten. The central number is 10/2 = 5.

Ps 27:1
01-29-2012, 09:36 PM
Yeah ... me said a funny!


I don't know ... maybe. Maybe not. Do I get a clue?

The 3 x 3 magic square is cool. All the even numbers are in the corners, and the five odd numbers make the pattern of a cross like in the Chinese representation of the number 5 in the center of the five odd numbers in their magic square:

All the numbers opposite each other add to ten. The central number is 10/2 = 5.

I actually already gave you a clue.:D

Usually at the beginning of the semester of my math classes, I would give them some riddles. The one that would always stump them was: pick up a rope in each hand and tie a knot without letting go of either end and have no body parts inside the knot. They would eventually swear that it could not be done. I would often times stand in front of them with my arms crossed, because that is how you solve the riddle.:lol:

Steve

Ps 27:1
01-29-2012, 09:58 PM
Okay, second part to this riddle. PI is one of the most important numbers in mathematics, agreed? Give an algorithm, simple enough for a child to understand, that uses all of the magic square to get 3142. (PI to the nearest thousandth ignoring the decimal.) Kind of like a pin number.:D

Bonus points if you can extend the string, 314159...

Steve

Richard Amiel McGough
01-29-2012, 10:55 PM
I actually already gave you a clue.:D

This is fun! I haven't engaged in a riddle challenge for a long time. Now I'll have to psychoanalyze you so I can guess what kind of answers you are expecting. "Find a home for the 0" ...



Usually at the beginning of the semester of my math classes, I would give them some riddles. The one that would always stump them was: pick up a rope in each hand and tie a knot without letting go of either end and have no body parts inside the knot. They would eventually swear that it could not be done. I would often times stand in front of them with my arms crossed, because that is how you solve the riddle.:lol:

Steve
That crossed arm trick is great! I had never heard of it before.

Now I'll go back and see if I can discern your riddle. Which post was the clue in?

Ps 27:1
01-29-2012, 11:19 PM
Now I'll go back and see if I can discern your riddle. Which post was the clue in?

You're killing me!!:lmbo::hysterical::rofl:

Okay, I'll play nice. Which post did I put it in?:sCo_hmmthink:

I know.:idea: I originally put it in one of them but then I inadvertently put it in all of them!:egad:

:hysterical:

Steve

Richard Amiel McGough
01-29-2012, 11:29 PM
You're killing me!!:lmbo::hysterical::rofl:

Okay, I'll play nice. Which post did I put it in?:sCo_hmmthink:

I know.:idea: I originally put it in one of them but then I inadvertently put it in all of them!:egad:

:hysterical:

Steve
Well, the thing about riddles is that they can be very idiosyncratic.

OH - I think I get it. You would draw a circle around the magic square, right?

Just like this image from the Lo Shu page you linked:

280

Ps 27:1
01-29-2012, 11:53 PM
Well, the thing about riddles is that they can be very idiosyncratic.


In spite of the fact that I have been euphemistically called eccentric and labeled a narcissist:lol:, you might like the answer.


OH - I think I get it. You would draw a circle around the magic square, right?

Just like this image from the Lo Shu page you linked:


You're getting warmer, but, no.:D

Steve

Richard Amiel McGough
01-30-2012, 12:05 AM
In spite of the fact that I have been euphemistically called eccentric and labeled a narcissist:lol:, you might like the answer.

We'll see ... I hope it doesn't make me groan too much ...



You're getting warmer, but, no.:D

Steve
No? Hummm ... warmer ... guess I'll have to sleep on it.

And the "algorithm that uses all the magic square" is ambiguous. Does it mean "uses all 9 digits" or is it referring to using the square itself?

The riddles itself is a riddle!

Ps 27:1
01-30-2012, 11:44 AM
We'll see ... I hope it doesn't make me groan too much ...


I hope so, too. Otherwise, I've just wasted a bunch of your time.:lol:


And the "algorithm that uses all the magic square" is ambiguous. Does it mean "uses all 9 digits" or is it referring to using the square itself?


Aawwh, come on. All good riddles are ambiguous.:D Are you trying to get me to spill the beans?:winking0071:

It least it's not as bad as this:

Jdg 14:12 And Samson said unto them, I will now put forth a riddle unto you: if ye can certainly declare it me within the seven days of the feast, and find it out, then I will give you thirty sheets and thirty change of garments:
Jdg 14:13 But if ye cannot declare it me, then shall ye give me thirty sheets and thirty change of garments. And they said unto him, Put forth thy riddle, that we may hear it.
Jdg 14:14 And he said unto them, Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness. And they could not in three days expound the riddle.

Now that is ambiguous.:lol:


The riddles itself is a riddle!

Okay, don't beat that to death.:sFun_banghead2::D

Looking back, I see that I have unitentionally give away several clues.:doh: :lol:

Steve

Rose
01-30-2012, 02:06 PM
This may be an ever expanding mathematical riddle. You solve one, we get to move on to the next level.:D

The history of the 3x3 magic square goes way back. Chinese legends concerning the pre-historic Emperor Yu (夏禹) tell of the Lo Shu, often in connection with the Ho Tu (河圖) figure and 8 trigrams. In ancient China there was a huge deluge: the people offered sacrifices to the god of one of the flooding rivers, the Lo river (洛水), to try to calm his anger. A magical turtle emerged from the water with the curious and decidedly unnatural (for a turtle shell) Lo Shu pattern on its shell: circular dots giving unary (base 1) representations of the integers one through nine are arranged in a three-by-three grid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lo_Shu

There is only one unique solution to the 3x3 magic square. Since we have 10 fingers (digita = Latin), wouldn't it be nice to find a home for the 0 digit?:D Tell me where you think is the best place for the 0 in relation to the other nine and why.

Happy sleuthing,
Steve

I would say the best place for the 0 is in the middle, because then all the numbers add up to 10 instead of 15 and we still have a magic square. :D

Rose

Richard Amiel McGough
01-30-2012, 02:41 PM
I hope so, too. Otherwise, I've just wasted a bunch of your time.:lol:

Aawwh, come on. All good riddles are ambiguous.:D Are you trying to get me to spill the beans?:winking0071:

Looking back, I see that I have unitentionally give away several clues.:doh: :lol:

Well, you might think you have given clues, but that's not so clear to me. Here is how you stated your riddle:

There is only one unique solution to the 3x3 magic square. Since we have 10 fingers (digita = Latin), wouldn't it be nice to find a home for the 0 digit? Tell me where you think is the best place for the 0 in relation to the other nine and why.

And then when I asked for a clue, you said you had already given one, meaning of course, the original riddle.

The association between fingers and digits is well known. So maybe you are playing around and suggesting that I need to make a zero with my thumb and forefinger?

281

But then you added the "clue" about giving the zero a "home." I reversed that and made the zero the home for the square, but you nixed that.

So if you don't want to give any clues, then you might as well "spill the beans." You say that you have given other clues, but I find that very hard to believe looking over your posts. So please state the "several clues" that you have given.

Thanks!

Ps 27:1
01-30-2012, 06:49 PM
I would say the best place for the 0 is in the middle, because then all the numbers add up to 10 instead of 15 and we still have a magic square. :D

Rose

Hi Rose!:icon_hello: In a true magic square, all the columns, rows, and 2 diagonals must sum the same. But you're not too far off.:D

Steve

Ps 27:1
01-30-2012, 07:18 PM
Well, you might think you have given clues, but that's not so clear to me. Here is how you stated your riddle:

There is only one unique solution to the 3x3 magic square. Since we have 10 fingers (digita = Latin), wouldn't it be nice to find a home for the 0 digit? Tell me where you think is the best place for the 0 in relation to the other nine and why.

And then when I asked for a clue, you said you had already given one, meaning of course, the original riddle.

The association between fingers and digits is well known. So maybe you are playing around and suggesting that I need to make a zero with my thumb and forefinger?

281


:hysterical: Good one! I hadn't thought about that, but, no.


So if you don't want to give any clues, then you might as well "spill the beans." You say that you have given other clues, but I find that very hard to believe looking over your posts. So please state the "several clues" that you have given.

Where's the smiley for having your arm twisted?:D Partypooper:p:lol:

Alrighty then.

Clue #1 from post #60 in my original thread.


One of things I was working on last year was the 3x3 magic square. 505 was the key for me to see deeper riddles in the magic square and the 3x3x3 cube. More about that in another thread. Sarah = 505 (Hebrew).

Clue #2 My avatar.

Clue #3 "Wouldn't it be nice to find a home for the 0 digit?


Thanks!

You're welcome.

with sore arm,
Steve

Richard Amiel McGough
01-30-2012, 09:18 PM
Where's the smiley for having your arm twisted?:D Partypooper:p:lol:

Alrighty then.

Clue #1 from post #60 in my original thread.

One of things I was working on last year was the 3x3 magic square. 505 was the key for me to see deeper riddles in the magic square and the 3x3x3 cube. More about that in another thread. Sarah = 505 (Hebrew).
Clue #2 My avatar.

Clue #3 "Wouldn't it be nice to find a home for the 0 digit?

You have a curious concept of "clues" if you expected me to go rummaging through old posts in a different thread! :p

And you clue #2 is just a reference to clue #1 which was hidden in a different thread, so I wouldn't say it "counts" either.

But now that I have your set of clues, I will make another couple guesses. Your emphasis on 505 made me wonder if you are thinking of taking a 5 x 5 square of zeros and putting the 3 x 3 magic square inside it so that there would be a square of zeros as a border. It wouldn't be part of the magic square, of course, since the outer rows and columns would add to zero.

Or maybe you think we should draw zero around the 5 in the center. You might think that is "hinted at" somehow in the number 505.

Getting any closer? :D

Ps 27:1
01-30-2012, 10:16 PM
You have a curious concept of "clues" if you expected me to go rummaging through old posts in a different thread! :p

And you clue #2 is just a reference to clue #1 which was hidden in a different thread, so I wouldn't say it "counts" either.

But now that I have your set of clues, I will make another couple guesses. Your emphasis on 505 made me wonder if you are thinking of taking a 5 x 5 square of zeros and putting the 3 x 3 magic square inside it so that there would be a square of zeros as a border. It wouldn't be part of the magic square, of course, since the outer rows and columns would add to zero.

Or maybe you think we should draw zero around the 5 in the center. You might think that is "hinted at" somehow in the number 505.

Getting any closer? :D

Answers: First one, no. Second one, you're in the proximity. So close and yet so far.:lol:

Everything you need to know is in clues 2 and 3. I thought clue 1 would just give it away. Apparently not.:D. Remember the rope trick and how the students were stumped because they made a false assumption? I chose my words very carefully. Read them again.


There is only one unique solution to the 3x3 magic square. Since we have 10 fingers (digita = Latin), wouldn't it be nice to find a home for the 0 digit? Tell me where you think is the best place for the 0 in relation to the other nine and why.

Clue #4 What would the cat in the hat do to catch the fox?:lol:

Steve

Richard Amiel McGough
01-30-2012, 11:52 PM
Answers: First one, no. Second one, you're in the proximity. So close and yet so far.:lol:

Everything you need to know is in clues 2 and 3. I thought clue 1 would just give it away. Apparently not.:D. Remember the rope trick and how the students were stumped because they made a false assumption? I chose my words very carefully. Read them again.

Clue #4 What would the cat in the hat do to catch the fox?:lol:

Steve
Well, I don't remember any of the specifics of the Cat in the Hat, so if I had to guess I would say that he caught the fox with his magic hat.

And your clues #2 and #3? Sarah, 505, a home (place) for the zero? Well, "place" in this context might mean "place value" which is how decimal notation works, so maybe you are thinking of prepending a zero to each of the numbers in the magic square. 01, 02, 03 etc. But that seems kinda lame. Or maybe you think we should multiply everything by 10 to make a magic square that sums to 150. That way we get a "place" for zero in every square. But this seems pretty lame too.

So I don't feel any closer to understanding your riddle.

But you do have me curious!

Ps 27:1
01-31-2012, 11:27 PM
Well, I don't remember any of the specifics of the Cat in the Hat, so if I had to guess I would say that he caught the fox with his magic hat.


:hysterical: You just have to think poetically:winking0071:


And your clues #2 and #3? Sarah, 505, a home (place) for the zero? Well, "place" in this context might mean "place value" which is how decimal notation works, so maybe you are thinking of prepending a zero to each of the numbers in the magic square. 01, 02, 03 etc. But that seems kinda lame. Or maybe you think we should multiply everything by 10 to make a magic square that sums to 150. That way we get a "place" for zero in every square. But this seems pretty lame too.

Lame is correct on both accounts. 01 Not = 0, 10 not = 0 :p


So I don't feel any closer to understanding your riddle.

Maybe you're looking at it from the wrong angle or angel.:peep: :D

Steve

Richard Amiel McGough
01-31-2012, 11:52 PM
:hysterical: You just have to think poetically:winking0071:



Lame is correct on both accounts. 01 Not = 0, 10 not = 0 :p



Maybe you're looking at it from the wrong angle or angel.:peep: :D

Steve
Or maybe you haven't given good clues.

Time to spill your beans mate.

283

David M
02-01-2012, 06:47 AM
Hi Steve and Richard

I thought this might have been solved by now. I have been waiting for Richard to come up with the answer. I am not sure I have the answer and I do not have an alternative magic square. Should I be looking for one?

Steve said he gave us a clue at the beginning and the only thing that is buzzing in my brain at the moment is that 0 (zero) is not a digit.
a home for the 0 digit? Steve has said it; the 0 (zero) or no digit . We do not have a 'zero' finger (digit). Zero is the absence of digits. When you remove all the digits from the magic square, you have an abscene of digits; hence zero.

In the hexadecimal system (1 to 16) the digit 10 is represented by the letter A

Can this be the answer to the puzzle or getting to the truth of the puzzle?

David

Silence
02-01-2012, 09:03 AM
Riddles have to be purposely vague in order for there to be anything to "figure out". When it was said "wouldn't it be nice to find a home for the zero" the first inclination is to be limited by the appearance of the "magic square" and thinking that the "home" for the zero had to fit in the grid of the square somehow. The riddle doesn't say that this is required. The statement about how the cat in the hat would catch a fox made me wonder if the cat in the hat would like to catch a fox in a box? Maybe the zero is behind each of the numbers in a dimension of depth? Thus turning the square into a box? Or maybe it is just just behind the center number, 5? A turtle shell is curved and that is how this "square" supposedly got started. 5 + 0 = 5 is the same as 505?

Or ...... Maybe the square is actually cut along all the lines radiating out from the center square and you fold the other squares back (or forward) 90 degrees and form a box with an open back (or front)? That way you have "nothing" or "zero" in the box.

Ps 27:1
02-01-2012, 12:29 PM
Riddles have to be purposely vague in order for there to be anything to "figure out".


Yes!


When it was said "wouldn't it be nice to find a home for the zero" the first inclination is to be limited by the appearance of the "magic square" and thinking that the "home" for the zero had to fit in the grid of the square somehow.

Yes!


The riddle doesn't say that this is required.

Yes!:congrats:



The statement about how the cat in the hat would catch a fox made me wonder if the cat in the hat would like to catch a fox in a box?

You would have made Dr. Seuss proud.:D I thought that clue was a dead give away.


Maybe the zero is behind each of the numbers in a dimension of depth? Thus turning the square into a box?

Now you're cookin'.:lol:


Or maybe it is just just behind the center number, 5?

Define behind, because couldn't it also be in front of the 5?:winking0071: Maybe "enclosed" would be better.


A turtle shell is curved and that is how this "square" supposedly got started.

Maybe, who knows.



5 + 0 = 5 is the same as 505?

Careful now. Look at my avatar. There are two images of the same Sarah separated by time and space. If not familiar with the movie go here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah's_Key

Not only that, but Julia, played by Kristin Scott-Thomas, is pregnant with a girl who she names Sarah. We use zero as 3 main functions: To indicate there being none of a certain item. To assist in place value. To show location in a coordinate system.

Sarah's name = 505. She laughed because she knew her time of fertility was up.

Gen 18:11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
Gen 18:12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

She was "dried up" so to speak inside, just like all of us are before we are born again. We are the zero inside that box.:D
Instead of thinking outside the box, maybe we need to be in the box.:D
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=four+walls+images&hl=en&sa=X&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS415US415&biw=1280&bih=662&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=sJr0u2PKqdmPMM:&imgrefurl=http://publicvr.org/ut/CUT4Install4.html&docid=5LDnyuv8R0yuyM&imgurl=http://publicvr.org/ut/CaveUT_Images/FourWallsUT.jpg&w=703&h=311&ei=CYEpT7nyCOOA2wWEnZXiAg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=143&vpy=222&dur=103&hovh=149&hovw=338&tx=193&ty=92&sig=117334314479418822660&page=10&tbnh=83&tbnw=188&start=209&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:209

I thought this :peep: was definitely going to give it away. :D

How serendipitous that silence solved the first part of the riddle. Good job! :congrats:

For those who may object on the use of 4 magic squares, remember, I said there was only one unique solution, the others are reflections or rotations.

Round 2 :D

Steve

Richard Amiel McGough
02-01-2012, 12:38 PM
Yes!



Yes!



Yes!:congrats:



You would have made Dr. Seuss proud.:D I thought that clue was a dead give away.



Now you're cookin'.:lol:



Define behind, because couldn't it also be in front of the 5?:winking0071: Maybe "enclosed" would be better.



Maybe, who knows.



Careful now. Look at my avatar. There are two images of the same Sarah separated by time and space. If not familiar with the movie go here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah's_Key (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah%27s_Key)

Not only that, but Julia, played by Kristin Scott-Thomas, is pregnant with a girl who she names Sarah. We use zero as 3 main functions: To indicate there being none of a certain item. To assist in place value. To show location in a coordinate system.

Sarah's name = 505. She laughed because she knew her time of fertility was up.

Gen 18:11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
Gen 18:12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

She was "dried up" so to speak inside, just like all of us are before we are born again. We are the zero inside that box.:D
Instead of thinking outside the box, maybe we need to be in the box.:D
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=four+walls+images&hl=en&sa=X&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS415US415&biw=1280&bih=662&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=sJr0u2PKqdmPMM:&imgrefurl=http://publicvr.org/ut/CUT4Install4.html&docid=5LDnyuv8R0yuyM&imgurl=http://publicvr.org/ut/CaveUT_Images/FourWallsUT.jpg&w=703&h=311&ei=CYEpT7nyCOOA2wWEnZXiAg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=143&vpy=222&dur=103&hovh=149&hovw=338&tx=193&ty=92&sig=117334314479418822660&page=10&tbnh=83&tbnw=188&start=209&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:209

I thought this :peep: was definitely going to give it away. :D

How serendipitous that silence solved the first part of the riddle. Good job! :congrats:

For those who may object on the use of 4 magic squares, remember, I said there was only one unique solution, the others are reflections or rotations.

Round 2 :D

Steve
So the answer to the riddle is to put myself in the middle, boxed in by four 3 x 3 magic squares?

Great. That was very enlightening .... NOT.

Excuse me if I don't pursue your riddles anymore. They are too idiosyncratic and don't generate any "aha" moment even when the answer is plainly stated.

I would be happy to engage you in normal discourse where folks say what they mean if you are so inclined.

All the best,

Richard

Silence
02-01-2012, 12:44 PM
Looks like I was typing my "Edit" with the guess about folding the square up into a box while you were posting your response. I hadn't even thought about having 4 squares to work with. I have to go to work now, so I won't have time to look up the story behind Sarah's key til tomorrow.

Richard Amiel McGough
02-01-2012, 01:10 PM
How serendipitous that silence solved the first part of the riddle. Good job! :congrats:

For those who may object on the use of 4 magic squares, remember, I said there was only one unique solution, the others are reflections or rotations.

Round 2 :D

Steve
Could you please quote the exact words that silence wrote that "solved" your riddle? I read his post and your response, and didn't see anywhere that silence actually stated it.

And why doesn't your "home" for the observer (which you call the "zero") not have a floor and a roof? Why didn't you use six magic squares rather than four?

And why do you identify the observer with the number zero?

And what does this have to do with Sarah = 505?

I don't see how your "clues" pointed to the solution you are offering.

Ps 27:1
02-01-2012, 08:55 PM
Could you please quote the exact words that silence wrote that "solved" your riddle? I read his post and your response, and didn't see anywhere that silence actually stated it.

"Technically, you're correct. But he was close enough. The idea was to look beyond 2 dimensions.


And why doesn't your "home" for the observer (which you call the "zero") not have a floor and a roof? Why didn't you use six magic squares rather than four?

Think of a Rubik's cube 8 feet tall with one side flat on the ground. Four people approach it, each to a different vertical face. They each see the 3x3 magic square. Two of them are reflections of the other two which are identical but facing in opposite directions. There are 4 squares, but only one unique or parent square. You could put a roof and floor on my riddle but then we would have at least two problems: The symmetry would be messed up. (There is no perfect 3x3x3 magic cube) And we would have a conundrum.

Nothing could get out and since 0 is nothing, we have a dilemma. Of course, by not having a roof, something could get out, but that wouldn't be nothing, now would it? :dizzy::lol:




And why do you identify the observer with the number zero?
That was a tangent. Sorry.:sEm_blush8:


And what does this have to do with Sarah = 505? I don't see how your "clues" pointed to the solution you are offering.

5's on opposite faces with some space between. The idea was to hint at 3-D and I did mention the 3x3x3 cube. There are some interesting "coincidences" with this cube arrangement.

Home --> house. 505 ---> 0 between the 5's meaning more than one 5. My avatar ---> space, time, reflection, 2 Sarahs to go along with the 2 5's.
Cat in hat ----> fox in box (even the o is in the middle:D)

Remember, this is just a fun riddle, not some grand mathematical theorem.:lol:

The second part about finding the PI string does not involve any "trickery", I think.:D

Steve

Richard Amiel McGough
02-01-2012, 09:51 PM
"Technically, you're correct. But he was close enough. The idea was to look beyond 2 dimensions.

Yeah, I can see that. His "fox in the box" hit the bullseye.



Think of a Rubik's cube 8 feet tall with one side flat on the ground. Four people approach it, each to a different vertical face. They each see the 3x3 magic square. Two of them are reflections of the other two which are identical but facing in opposite directions. There are 4 squares, but only one unique or parent square. You could put a roof and floor on my riddle but then we would have at least two problems: The symmetry would be messed up. (There is no perfect 3x3x3 magic cube) And we would have a conundrum.

Nothing could get out and since 0 is nothing, we have a dilemma. Of course, by not having a roof, something could get out, but that wouldn't be nothing, now would it? :dizzy::lol:

Well, I still don't see what's so "nice" about that "home" for the zero. What does it really add to our understanding?



That was a tangent. Sorry.:sEm_blush8:

No worries! :thumb:



5's on opposite faces with some space between. The idea was to hint at 3-D and I did mention the 3x3x3 cube. There are some interesting "coincidences" with this cube arrangement.

Home --> house. 505 ---> 0 between the 5's meaning more than one 5. My avatar ---> space, time, reflection, 2 Sarahs to go along with the 2 5's.
Cat in hat ----> fox in box (even the o is in the middle:D)

Remember, this is just a fun riddle, not some grand mathematical theorem.:lol:

The second part about finding the PI string does not involve any "trickery", I think.:D

Steve
Thanks for the answers. I can see your thought process, though there is no clue in the name "Sarah" per se since it was only the numeric value that you were using.

The form of 505 matches you solution, but only in hindsight. My solution of a 5 x 5 square of zeros with the 3 x 3 magic square centered to give a wall of 16 zeros surrounding fits with that number too.

But "fox in a box" was pretty good!

As for an "algrithm" to list out the number 3142 from the square, the simplest is probably "list out the numbers 3142 from the square." That's probabily the smallest string that would satisfy you demands, and if so it would technically be the answer to your riddle. It will be interesting to see if your algorythm can be expressed in a shorter string.

Have a great day.

Richard

David M
02-04-2012, 11:20 AM
Steve


There is only one unique solution to the 3x3 magic square. Since we have 10 fingers (digita = Latin), wouldn't it be nice to find a home for the 0 digit? Tell me where you think is the best place for the 0 in relation to the other nine and why.


I have read and waited to the end for the solution and I am as confused with your solution as I was at the beginning with the problem. Sorry if I am thick in understanding the solution to your problem, that is assuming a sloution exists. There does not have to be a connection with the 9 unary system which is a subset of the decimal system conforming to the number of our fingers (digits). As you know our tenth digit is a single object but in the decimal system is representd by two symbols; 1 and 0 where 0 is a symbol and not a digit. I expect there is a convention for for numbering the fingers on the hand replacing left hand with one set of digit numbers and right hand with another set of digit numbers and replacing the index finger or thumb identification etc. for a number.

Your solution to me looks like fitting a square peg into a round hole, except this time, you fitted a round peg/shaft into a square hole. I cannot help myself recalling an expression which the more crude would use to say what has been done.

If I am truly missing something here, I can only ask for my eyes to be opened. Like the man whose child was healed by Jesus. 'Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief'.
The man saw and believed what he saw, but he did not understand how the healing had been done.

Our desire for more and more depth of understanding gives rise to our unbelief i.e. our lack of understanding. I know this is true for me as there are so many things that I do not have the answer to. Yet I can settle for the obvious truths which God has revealed to us plainly and by which the wise manage to confound themselves. As Jesus said; I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

And as the Apostle Paul says; But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;


I look forward to more enlightenment.


David

Ps 27:1
02-04-2012, 12:43 PM
Steve




I have read and waited to the end for the solution and I am as confused with your solution as I was at the beginning with the problem. Sorry if I am thick in understanding the solution to your problem, that is assuming a sloution exists. There does not have to be a connection with the 9 unary system which is a subset of the decimal system conforming to the number of our fingers (digits). As you know our tenth digit is a single object but in the decimal system is representd by two symbols; 1 and 0 where 0 is a symbol and not a digit. I expect there is a convention for for numbering the fingers on the hand replacing left hand with one set of digit numbers and right hand with another set of digit numbers and replacing the index finger or thumb identification etc. for a number.

Your solution to me looks like fitting a square peg into a round hole, except this time, you fitted a round peg/shaft into a square hole. I cannot help myself recalling an expression which the more crude would use to say what has been done.

I look forward to more enlightenment.


David

Hi David,

Zero (0) is a symbol(numeral) and a digit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_digit and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero

A round shaft in a cube would be a good description of the solution. If you knock the cube over, you will see the hole (0) in the middle.

Remember, this is a riddle (fun ? puzzle), not a mathematical theorem (provable fact).

Steve

Ps 27:1
02-04-2012, 01:17 PM
Yeah, I can see that. His "fox in the box" hit the bullseye.


Was the pun intended?:lol:


Well, I still don't see what's so "nice" about that "home" for the zero. What does it really add to our understanding?

Seriously?:lol: I get that all the time concerning gematria, so it seems a bit strange coming from you. I thought we were just having fun, man. It's not like we're solving the universe here. :Date_Setting: :hysterical:


The form of 505 matches you solution, but only in hindsight. My solution of a 5 x 5 square of zeros with the 3 x 3 magic square centered to give a wall of 16 zeros surrounding fits with that number too.

Well, you know what "they" say about hindsight? (20,20:lol:) Wouldn't your solution go with 050? If you believe it, then it will be.:D


But "fox in a box" was pretty good!

You do know that fox in English gematria = 6+60+600= 666?:lmbo: Have you ever seen a silver fox in the wild? I have once and the circumstances surrounding that day and night became indelible in my mind. But that is for another thread.


As for an "algrithm" to list out the number 3142 from the square, the simplest is probably "list out the numbers 3142 from the square." That's probabily the smallest string that would satisfy you demands, and if so it would technically be the answer to your riddle. It will be interesting to see if your algorythm can be expressed in a shorter string.

Have a great day.

Richard

One of my original stipulations was that you had to use all 9 digits. My original instructions were also vague. So let me try again. Come up with 3142 using simple arithmetic and all of the magic square. You can +, -, x, /. No exponents, etc. The simpler, the better. If no one wants to try this, I will post my solution promptly.

Thanks and the same to you,
Steve

David M
02-04-2012, 03:33 PM
Solution to obtaining 3142 from using all the digits 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 is as follows:


Maybe I struck on this by the luck of choosing certain numbers early on.

I knew that 9 x 8 x7 x 6 = 3024 and adding this to 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 = 120 gets you to 3144 and taking one off got to 3143 which is close but not good enough.



I tried a few more combinations to come up with 9 x 6 x 5 x 4 x 3 = 3240 which gets you within 98 of the required target.

Can you get 98 from 8, 7, 2, 1 that remain?


The solution to this came as ((8 -1 = 7) x 7 = 49) x 2 = 98 so I guess I had done it.


The final solution is therefore:

(9 x 6 x5 x 4 x 3) - ((8-1) x 7) x 2 = 3142



David

Richard Amiel McGough
02-04-2012, 03:46 PM
Solution to obtaining 3142 from using all the digits 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 is as follows:


Maybe I struck on this by the luck of choosing certain numbers early on.

I knew that 9 x 8 x7 x 6 = 3024 and adding this to 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 = 120 gets you to 3144 and taking one off got to 3143 which is close but not good enough.



I tried a few more combinations to come up with 9 x 6 x 5 x 4 x 3 = 3240 which gets you within 98 of the required target.

Can you get 98 from 8, 7, 2, 1 that remain?


The solution to this came as ((8 -1 = 7) x 7 = 49) x 2 = 98 so I guess I had done it.


The final solution is therefore:

(9 x 6 x5 x 4 x 3) - ((8-1) x 7) x 2 = 3142



David

Good work David! I was going to try something along the same lines, but I don't think it can be correct because Steve said that it has to be "an algorithm, simple enough for a child to understand." Here's the conditions:


Okay, second part to this riddle. PI is one of the most important numbers in mathematics, agreed? Give an algorithm, simple enough for a child to understand, that uses all of the magic square to get 3142. (PI to the nearest thousandth ignoring the decimal.) Kind of like a pin number.:D

Bonus points if you can extend the string, 314159...

Steve
I think you gave a formula, not an algorithm.

David M
02-04-2012, 05:38 PM
Richard

I had forgotten about that first challenge and was concentrating on the last post which said;


One of my original stipulations was that you had to use all 9 digits. My original instructions were also vague. So let me try again. Come up with 3142 using simple arithmetic and all of the magic square. You can +, -, x, /. No exponents, etc. The simpler, the better. If no one wants to try this, I will post my solution promptly.


Maybe the first challenge should continue. I am not sure where to start with algorithms for calculating pi. It is the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle and therefore will involve higher mathematics that I have long forgotten how to use.

David

Ps 27:1
02-04-2012, 06:32 PM
The solution to this came as ((8 -1 = 7) x 7 = 49) x 2 = 98 so I guess I had done it.


The final solution is therefore:

(9 x 6 x5 x 4 x 3) - ((8-1) x 7) x 2 = 3142



Hi David,

That is the approach most of us would probably take, myself included. That is why I said ,"simple enough for a child to understand." I had students in high school that had a hard time with order of operations.:eek: I was just playing around when I "accidentally" discovered my solution.

Blessings,
Steve

Ps 27:1
02-04-2012, 06:36 PM
Good work David! I was going to try something along the same lines, but I don't think it can be correct because Steve said that it has to be "an algorithm, simple enough for a child to understand." Here's the conditions:


I think you gave a formula, not an algorithm.


Now I'll have to psychoanalyze you so I can guess what kind of answers you are expecting.

I think you're starting to have me all figured out.:eek::rofl:

Steve

Ps 27:1
02-04-2012, 06:47 PM
Richard

I had forgotten about that first challenge and was concentrating on the last post which said;




Maybe the first challenge should continue. I am not sure where to start with algorithms for calculating pi. It is the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle and therefore will involve higher mathematics that I have long forgotten how to use.

David

Whoaa!:eek: :stop: Stop right there.:D Forget all that for now. Just think of a simple way to get to 3142 using all of the square. I'll give some hints if you're stumped. I don't want to send you on a wild goose chase and then have you mad at me.:smash::banghead::D

Peace brother,
Steve

Ps 27:1
02-11-2012, 11:56 PM
Not that anybody cares, :lol: here is my solution:

Those who have played with a compass, probably know that the radius of a circle can be used to divide the circle into 6 congruent arcs. Thus you can construct 6 circles around one. Also, 6 congruent coins will perfectly surround a seventh.

300

I would sometimes ask my students why we have 7 days in a week. Of course, the most common reply is the creation story. I would say that was a possibility (I had to remain objective, because it was a geometry class in a public school :lol:) and then I would tell them that the 6 around 1 is a prominent feature in nature and then we would construct the above image.

When I was playing around with the 3x3 magic square, I wondered what would happen if I summed the "7 days". This is what I did:

159
258
357
456
555
654
753
-----
3192

I saw that the sum was exactly 50 more than 3142 and that 555 was really inconsistent with the other strings. All the other strings are made by lines passing through the center, but 555 was not. It seemed serendipitous that the previous riddle provided the solution for the 505 string to now be linear and making the sum fit PI.

As you can see, it should not be hard to give a kid instructions on how to come up with the list of strings. I'll leave that up to you.:lol:

Cheers,
Steve