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Craig.Paardekooper
12-01-2011, 04:40 PM
Here is an interesting pattern. I was reviewing a web site - http://www.jesus8880.com/chapters/gematria/jesus-zoe-815.htm

Draw a circle of circumference 8880, then draw a star of David inside it, so that the Star of David fills the whole circle.

The Star of David consists of 12 equilateral triangles (6 around the outside, and 6 in the middle forming a hexagon)

Now, if you draw a circle within each of these triangles, the circumference of each circle is 1480 exactly.


Here is the maths to prove it -

(I take pi as 3.14159)

Diameter of circle of circumference 8880 = 8880 / pi = 2826.594177

Height of each equilateral triangle = Diameter / 4 = 706.6485442

Half base of each triangle = 706.6485442/tan 60 = 407.9837272

Radius of circle within each triangle = 407.9837272 x tan 30 = 235.5495147

Diameter of circle within each triangle = 2 x 235.5495147 = 471.0990295

Circumference of circle within each triangle = 471.0990295 x 3.14159 = 1480 exactly


This is quite odd. A Star of David divides naturally into 12 equal parts. When a Star of David is drawn inside a circle of circumference 8880, each of the 12 parts contains a circle of circumference 1480.

The Star of David represents the 12 tribes of Israel, so it's division into 12 parts makes sense. That each of these parts manifests Christ only when the whole star is centred inside Jesus (8880) is remarkable.

Bob May
12-02-2011, 05:16 AM
Here is an interesting pattern. I was reviewing a web site - http://www.jesus8880.com/chapters/gematria/jesus-zoe-815.htm

Draw a circle of circumference 8880, then draw a star of David inside it, so that the Star of David fills the whole circle.

The Star of David consists of 12 equilateral triangles (6 around the outside, and 6 in the middle forming a hexagon)

Now, if you draw a circle within each of these triangles, the circumference of each circle is 1480 exactly.


Here is the maths to prove it -

(I take pi as 3.14159)

Diameter of circle of circumference 8880 = 8880 / pi = 2826.594177

Height of each equilateral triangle = Diameter / 4 = 706.6485442

Half base of each triangle = 706.6485442/tan 60 = 407.9837272

Radius of circle within each triangle = 407.9837272 x tan 30 = 235.5495147

Diameter of circle within each triangle = 2 x 235.5495147 = 471.0990295

Circumference of circle within each triangle = 471.0990295 x 3.14159 = 1480 exactly


This is quite odd. A Star of David divides naturally into 12 equal parts. When a Star of David is drawn inside a circle of circumference 8880, each of the 12 parts contains a circle of circumference 1480.

The Star of David represents the 12 tribes of Israel, so it's division into 12 parts makes sense. That each of these parts manifests Christ only when the whole star is centred inside Jesus (8880) is remarkable.

Hi Craig,

Χριστος Christos {khris-tos'} from 5548; TDNT - 9:493,1322; adj AV - Christ 569; 569 Christ = VanointedV 1) Christ was the Messiah, the Son of God 2) anointed


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gematria: 1480


It fits!
Bob

Craig.Paardekooper
12-02-2011, 09:33 AM
I just received this email from Steve Coneglan. He shows that the 12 Tribes as listed in the Book of Revelations have a total gematria of 8880. Here is his post -

http://www.craigdemo.co.uk/12tribesrevelation.pdf

Richard Amiel McGough
12-02-2011, 11:15 AM
I just received this email from Steve Coneglan. He shows that the 12 Tribes as listed in the Book of Revelations have a total gematria of 8880. Here is his post -

http://www.craigdemo.co.uk/12tribesrevelation.pdf
I think I confirmed that some years ago after reading it somewhere. Steve did an excellent job in the pdf.

Channard
01-29-2013, 08:57 AM
Here is an interesting pattern. I was reviewing a web site - http://www.jesus8880.com/chapters/gematria/jesus-zoe-815.htm

Draw a circle of circumference 8880, then draw a star of David inside it, so that the Star of David fills the whole circle.

The Star of David consists of 12 equilateral triangles (6 around the outside, and 6 in the middle forming a hexagon)

Now, if you draw a circle within each of these triangles, the circumference of each circle is 1480 exactly.


Here is the maths to prove it -

(I take pi as 3.14159)

Diameter of circle of circumference 8880 = 8880 / pi = 2826.594177

Height of each equilateral triangle = Diameter / 4 = 706.6485442

Half base of each triangle = 706.6485442/tan 60 = 407.9837272

Radius of circle within each triangle = 407.9837272 x tan 30 = 235.5495147

Diameter of circle within each triangle = 2 x 235.5495147 = 471.0990295

Circumference of circle within each triangle = 471.0990295 x 3.14159 = 1480 exactly


This is quite odd. A Star of David divides naturally into 12 equal parts. When a Star of David is drawn inside a circle of circumference 8880, each of the 12 parts contains a circle of circumference 1480.

The Star of David represents the 12 tribes of Israel, so it's division into 12 parts makes sense. That each of these parts manifests Christ only when the whole star is centred inside Jesus (8880) is remarkable.



All of this was done using Greek, yet they reference Hebrew, and more specifically the Jewish Gematria, which is explicitly meant for Hebrew letters, not Greek letters.

The Hebrew Aleph-Bet does not contain the letter 'j'... once again Greek is used, not Hebrew, yet we are using the Jewish Gematria.

The Hebrew Word for Life is pronounced "Chai" and it looks like: חי

The earliest known usage of the Jewish Gematria predates Jesus by 200 years.

A Mishnaic textual source makes clear that the use of Gematria is dated to at least the Tannaic period. Pirkei Avot 3:23:
רבי אלעזר בן חסמא אומר, קנין ופתחי נדה הן הן גופי הלכות. תקופות וגמטריאות פרפראות לחכמה.
Rabbi Eleazar Chisma[7] said: the laws of mixed bird offerings and the key to the calculations of menstruation days—these, these are the body of the halakhah. The calculation of the equinoxes and gematria are the desserts of wisdom.


Decimal Hebrew Glyph
1 Aleph א
2 Bet ב
3 Gimel ג
4 Daled ד
5 He ה
6 Vav ו
7 Zayin ז
8 Heth ח
9 Teth ט
10 Yud י
20 Kaph כ
30 Lamed ל
40 Mem מ
50 Nun נ
60 Samech ס
70 Ayin ע
80 Pe פ
90 Tsade צ
100 Qoph ק
200 Reish ר
300 Shin ש
400 Taw ת
500 Kaph(final) ך
600 Mem(final) ם
700 Nun(final) ן
800 Pe(final) ף
900 Tsade(final) ץ


The Greek variant on this is, unusual, perhaps instead of using Greek for a Hebrew symbol (Seal of Solomon), maybe... use Hebrew instead???

Seal of Solomon = Magen David = Star of David. King Solomon, the Son of David, was the first to build G-d's Temple, which may or may not be the reason for this seal.

LIFE IN HEBREW = 18 חי NOT THE GREEK ζωή 8880

Perhaps someone could start from there, if they felt inclined.

Possible number patterns could be 3, 6, 13, 18, 39 as these are important numbers in Judaism for one reason or another.

Richard Amiel McGough
01-29-2013, 10:21 AM
All of this was done using Greek, yet they reference Hebrew, and more specifically the Jewish Gematria, which is explicitly meant for Hebrew letters, not Greek letters.

The Hebrew Aleph-Bet does not contain the letter 'j'... once again Greek is used, not Hebrew, yet we are using the Jewish Gematria.

The Hebrew Word for Life is pronounced "Chai" and it looks like: חי

The earliest known usage of the Jewish Gematria predates Jesus by 200 years.

A Mishnaic textual source makes clear that the use of Gematria is dated to at least the Tannaic period. Pirkei Avot 3:23:
רבי אלעזר בן חסמא אומר, קנין ופתחי נדה הן הן גופי הלכות. תקופות וגמטריאות פרפראות לחכמה.
Rabbi Eleazar Chisma[7] said: the laws of mixed bird offerings and the key to the calculations of menstruation days—these, these are the body of the halakhah. The calculation of the equinoxes and gematria are the desserts of wisdom.


Hey there Channard,

I agree that gematria probably began with Hebrew, but doesn't mean it can't have significance in Greek too. I began studying Hebrew gematria in 1990. I studied it for a couple years and became convinced that there were truly significant patterns before noting that it integrated with Greek gematria. I call the most impressive patterns "holographs." They have a self-reflective self-similarity that is self-validating. For example, here is the Unity Holograph (http://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_Unity.php) which represents the alphanumeric structure of the Shema (Deut 6:4) which Christ said was the "first and greatest commandment:"

http://www.biblewheel.com/images/UnityHolograph.gif

Nested multiples of the prime number 13, which also is the second Hexagonal Star Number (Star of David), recur four times in that passage:

13 x 1 = Echad (One)
13 x 2 = YHVH (The Lord)
13 x 3 = YHVH Echad (The Lord is One)
13 x 86 = Hear Oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Sum of Shema)

It is particularly significant that the number 86 is the value of "Elohim" so the sum of the Shema reiterates its central claim 1118 = 13 (One) x 86 (God)

Furthermore, there are three numbers derived from the prime factors of the Sum of the Shema (2, 13, 43):



Divine Name
Value
Prime Factors


The Father
559
-
13
43


God (Elohim)
86
2
-
43


The LORD (YHVH)
26
2
13
-



The two names Elohim and YHVH are the primary names of God used throughout the OT. What about the "Divine Name" that sums to 559? It is the Greek Ho Pater which is the primary NT name of God. There is no Hebrew name that sums to that value. Thus, the Greek is necessary to complete the holograph.

We see a similar integration of Greek and Hebrew gematria in the Creation Holograph which shows a profoundly integrated alphanumeric structure (http://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_Creation_Hyper.php) of Genesis 1:1-5 and John 1:1-5:

http://www.biblewheel.com/images/Creation_DDa.gif

So it seems we have very good reason to think that Greek and Hebrew gematria go well together.

All the best,

Richard

Channard
01-29-2013, 01:07 PM
Sum of the word Sh'ma in Hebrew: 410 שְׁמַע
Shin 300, Mem 40 (not Final Mem) and Ayin 70

Sum of the entire Sh'ma
שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יְהוָה אֶחָד

שְׁמַע = Shin 300, Mem 40 (not Final Mem) and Ayin 70 : 410
יִשְׂרָאֵל = Yud 10 , Sin 300 (not Shin), Reish 200, Aleph 1, Lamed 30 : 541
יְהוָה = Yud 10, Hey 5, Vav 6, *ey 5 (Last pronunciation left out by me on purpose) : 26
אֱלֹהֵינוּ = Aleph 1, Lamed 30, Yud 10, Hey 5, Nun 50 , and the Shuruk ending Nun (Normally Not Counted), or counted Shuruk 10 on Nun : 96 or 106
יְהוָה = Yud 10, Hey 5, Vav 6, *ey 5 (Last pronunciation left out by me on purpose) : 26
אֶחָד = Aleph 1, Chet 8, Dalet 4 : 13

If I have not made any mistakes for counting these too quicky, I believe they amount to : 1108 or 1118, but 1118 is unlikely as the Shuruk is normally never counted.

Can we imagine using Greek for that.... ;)


אלהים = Aleph 1, Lamed 30, Hey 5, Yud 10, Final Mem 600 : 646 for ELOHIM -- This is the problem with using English or Greek in place of Hebrew. The 86 value is derived because the count does not use the decimal value correctly for the Final Mem, which has a value of 600, or else if it was a regular mem מַ it would equal 86. But it is not a regular Mem, it is a Final Mem ם, its a huge difference. That one little thing that is not translated over...

For instance, on the biblewheel, the Gematria count is wrong: http://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_Database.php?bnum=16&cnum=10&vnum=36, it is not 86, but 646. They aren't using the Final Mem value.
אלהים = 646

Have you ever looked into Kabbalah, this is very close to this... it is fascinating.

Richard Amiel McGough
01-29-2013, 03:58 PM
Sum of the word Sh'ma in Hebrew: 410 שְׁמַע
Shin 300, Mem 40 (not Final Mem) and Ayin 70

Sum of the entire Sh'ma
שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יְהוָה אֶחָד

שְׁמַע = Shin 300, Mem 40 (not Final Mem) and Ayin 70 : 410
יִשְׂרָאֵל = Yud 10 , Sin 300 (not Shin), Reish 200, Aleph 1, Lamed 30 : 541
יְהוָה = Yud 10, Hey 5, Vav 6, *ey 5 (Last pronunciation left out by me on purpose) : 26
אֱלֹהֵינוּ = Aleph 1, Lamed 30, Yud 10, Hey 5, Nun 50 , and the Shuruk ending Nun (Normally Not Counted), or counted Shuruk 10 on Nun : 96 or 106
יְהוָה = Yud 10, Hey 5, Vav 6, *ey 5 (Last pronunciation left out by me on purpose) : 26
אֶחָד = Aleph 1, Chet 8, Dalet 4 : 13

If I have not made any mistakes for counting these too quicky, I believe they amount to : 1108 or 1118, but 1118 is unlikely as the Shuruk is normally never counted.

Can we imagine using Greek for that.... ;)


אלהים = Aleph 1, Lamed 30, Hey 5, Yud 10, Final Mem 600 : 646 for ELOHIM -- This is the problem with using English or Greek in place of Hebrew. The 86 value is derived because the count does not use the decimal value correctly for the Final Mem, which has a value of 600, or else if it was a regular mem מַ it would equal 86. But it is not a regular Mem, it is a Final Mem ם, its a huge difference. That one little thing that is not translated over...

For instance, on the biblewheel, the Gematria count is wrong: http://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_Database.php?bnum=16&cnum=10&vnum=36, it is not 86, but 646. They aren't using the Final Mem value.
אלהים = 646

Have you ever looked into Kabbalah, this is very close to this... it is fascinating.
Have I ever looked into Kabbalah? I own the Zohar (five volumes), most of the books by Aryeh Kaplan, The Alef-Beit by Yitzchak Ginsburgh, Rabbi Munk's Wisdom of the Hebrew Alphabet, The Likutei Amarim - Tanya (Bi-Lingual Edition), and about a hundred other texts, many of which are in Hebrew/Aramaic.

This is why I am mystified by your failure to see the significance of the alphanumeric structure of the Shema. It is based on the common calculations found throughout the Jewish literature - both ancient and modern - which usually use the standard values for sofit letters. Sometimes they will explore possible connections based on the sofit values (Mispar Gadol), but that is relatively rare. The value of 86 for Elohim is universally recognized. For example, here is what Rabbi Nosson Scherman says in his introduction to Avie Gold's book Purim - Its Observance and Significance (http://www.amazon.com/Purim-Observance-Significance-Artscroll-Mesorah/dp/0899066070) (Artscroll Mesorah Series) which is subtitled "A presentation based on Talmudic and Traditional Sources" -
Can a logical person see the hand of God and deny its existence? Certainly. God wears a glove called Nature. The Divine Name אלהים [Elohim] which signifies God's mastery over the universe, has the numerical value of 86, the same as that of הטבע, the laws of nature. Nature truly exists; it is God's way of exercising control over creation. Can one find natural causes for events? Yes' almost always there are good causes for every effect. When God dispatches angels to do his bidding, they take the form of fires, winning lottery tickets, business upturns, winds that push balls over goal posts, aggressors - the entire panoply of causes and effects that make headlines and history books. So we are always challenged to see the Hand inside the glove.
This is the value cited by Gutman G. Locks in his book The Spice of the Torah: Gematria where in the introduction he notes that the 15th, 26th, and 86th letters of the Torah are Aleph which represents God and these occurrences correspond to the names Yah (15), YHVH (26), and Elohim (86). His book lists every occurrence of every numerical value of every word in the Torah, and he lists Elohim under the number 86, and though he lists many words under 646, he does not include Elohim.

I could give thousands of examples of how Jewish tradition commonly uses the standard values for the sofit letters. I don't understand why you would challenge anyone on this point.

I have a similar confusion about your challenging of the value of אֱלֹהֵינוּ (eloheinu) = 102. That is the totally standard value and it is listed in Locks' book as the value of eloheinu. Where did you get the idea that the vav at the end is "Normally Not Counted"? What tradition are you following? Can you cite any Rabbinic authorities to support your rules?

Also, the choice of whether or not to use the Mispar Gadol for the sofit values has nothing to do with translations since the calculations are always performed on the actual Hebrew word.

Look again at the identities that are built into the Shema:

13 x 1 = 13 = Echad (One)
13 x 2 = 26 = YHVH (The Lord)
13 x 3 = 39 = YHVH Echad (The Lord is One)
13 x 86 = 1118 = Hear Oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Sum of Shema = 13 (One) x 86 (God)

If you have any appreciation of Hebrew gematria, how can you fail to see the significance of these nested identities, especially the last one where the sum of the Shema reiterates its central message as 1118 = 13 (One) x 86 (God)?

Great chatting,

:sunny:

Channard
01-29-2013, 05:17 PM
Wow, I didn't mean to provoke you. Sorry very, very much. .... And yes, I understand what is in the Sh'ma, I say it whenever I'm in Synagogue just after Lecha Dodi on Shabbat, etc, etc...

As far as interpreting the Hebrew Gematria, there are many methods to do this, and not all will have the same value. So there isn't 'one way'.
Standard (What this site seems to be using)
Mispar Katan
Mispar HadKami
Mispar HaPerati
Mispar Misafi
Mispar Kidmi... among many, many others.

So Mem would have the value of-
40 in Standard Method (which is what is being used in the site)
145 in Mispar HadKami
4 in Mispar Katan
1600 in Mispar HaPerati
80 in Mispar Shemi for both Mem and Final Mem

In many others, this would be 646. Notice how the 'Standard Method' sounds English.... that's because it is... =-)

Perhaps if you used some of the other methods you may strike more Gold, or even find Platinum, who knows...

Oddly, the Standard Method does not count the Shuruk, yet it is included in the totals that are posted... A Shuruk is basically an apostrophe, so it really shouldn't get a value since it is not a letter. Like I said, I could have miscounted or missed a Yud, but the previous number I counted was 1108 and the Shuruk was excluded on that count, included it was 1118.

Also, the ArtScroll series is good in many ways... but perhaps other sources could be useful as well? I personally find the ArtScroll products to be of good quality, I do have some concerns about them... they are listed here for the most part: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArtScroll#Criticism
In fact, ArtScroll is facing challenges from the Orthodox about their content.... why? Because they can be inaccurate, but many people have many gripes with many things, its all a matter of perspective.

Also, you have told me I have failed... I am unsure why sharing is called failure....

Thank you very much for a very detailed website, it is intriguing and unique and it is very successful in illustrating complex concepts.

Richard Amiel McGough
01-29-2013, 06:31 PM
Wow, I didn't mean to provoke you. Sorry very, very much. .... And yes, I understand what is in the Sh'ma, I say it whenever I'm in Synagogue just after Lecha Dodi on Shabbat, etc, etc...

Hey there Channard,

Sorry I gave you the impression I was "provoked." I didn't feel that way at all. I was just confused by your response because the gematria of the Shema is entirely standard.



As far as interpreting the Hebrew Gematria, there are many methods to do this, and not all will have the same value. So there isn't 'one way'.
Standard (What this site seems to be using)
Mispar Katan
Mispar HadKami
Mispar HaPerati
Mispar Misafi
Mispar Kidmi... among many, many others.

So Mem would have the value of-
40 in Standard Method (which is what is being used in the site)
145 in Mispar HadKami
4 in Mispar Katan
1600 in Mispar HaPerati
80 in Mispar Shemi for both Mem and Final Mem

In many others, this would be 646. Notice how the 'Standard Method' sounds English.... that's because it is... =-)

Perhaps if you used some of the other methods you may strike more Gold, or even find Platinum, who knows...

Yes, I know all about the wide variety of methods of calculating values of words. There is no end to it - which is why I restricted myself to the "standard" method for the base calculations. The problem with gematria is that there usually is no way to separate cherry picked results from significant coincidences. So I set a standard based on the most standard values out there. The others are interesting and I discuss them here and there in my writings, but the holographs are based on the standard values.



Oddly, the Standard Method does not count the Shuruk, yet it is included in the totals that are posted... A Shuruk is basically an apostrophe, so it really shouldn't get a value since it is not a letter. Like I said, I could have miscounted or missed a Yud, but the previous number I counted was 1108 and the Shuruk was excluded on that count, included it was 1118.

I don't understand why you say that the shuruk is not a letter. It exists in the unpointed texts and it MUST be included because ELOHEIN is not even a Hebrew word (though it is an Aramaic word). The correct word is ELOHEINU and its value is 102. I've never seen anyone omit the final vav. Where have you seen this? Can you give me any example of someone saying different?



Also, the ArtScroll series is good in many ways... but perhaps other sources could be useful as well? I personally find the ArtScroll products to be of good quality, I do have some concerns about them... they are listed here for the most part: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArtScroll#Criticism
In fact, ArtScroll is facing challenges from the Orthodox about their content.... why? Because they can be inaccurate, but many people have many gripes with many things, its all a matter of perspective.

Criticism of the Artscroll series is totally irrelevant. Do you know of any criticism of the relation between Elohim = 86 = Hatava? I just grabbed the Artscroll book as a quick example so I could show you that counting Elohim as 86 is common and is understood by all informed students of gematria as far as I know. I could have grabbed a hundred different examples. Do you have any example of anyone saying that Elohim does not equal 86 or that eloheinu should not be counted as 102?



Also, you have told me I have failed... I am unsure why sharing is called failure....

When I said you "failed" I was speaking only of your failure to see the significance of the alphanumeric structure of the Shema. I didn't mean that you failed in general - I don't even know you, so I couldn't make a judgment like that. And it certainly had nothing to do with the fact that you were sharing. I'm very glad you did that.



Thank you very much for a very detailed website, it is intriguing and unique and it is very successful in illustrating complex concepts.
And thank you for taking time to share your insights. I hope you don't feel intimidated by my "blunt" responses. I've been talking on the internet for well over a decade and have learned never to take offense unless the person is explicitly trying to insult me. We don't have body language or tone of voice to help us understand what the other meant, so misunderstandings happen all the time. You read my post with a certain "voice" in your head that probably had tones that I never intended.

I hope you will continue to share your insights.

All the very best,

Richard

Channard
01-29-2013, 07:07 PM
Why I may think the shuruk is not a letter.... =)

When I say the Aleph-Bet, or my daughters or wife recites the Aleph-Bet, there is no Shuruk. My wife taught at an Ulpan, I asked her and she says the same... although modern Hebrew may have changed things? I don't know about it. I don't believe I have ever heard anyone recite a Shuruk, not even at the weirdest Bar Mitzvah I have ever been to...

Anyways, to me and a few people I know, Shuruk is a vowel sound, like an apostrophe would be for it's, but also like a vowel sound, such as E like street, is ee its own letter?... This for us is the way we use it.

Have a good night, I hope to be back in a few weeks or month to post some things I am doing with Vertices of the 'Two Triangles'. I am using this site as a basis for going forward on a few theories...

Until next time.

Richard Amiel McGough
01-29-2013, 07:49 PM
Why I may think the shuruk is not a letter.... =)

When I say the Aleph-Bet, or my daughters or wife recites the Aleph-Bet, there is no Shuruk. My wife taught at an Ulpan, I asked her and she says the same... although modern Hebrew may have changed things? I don't know about it. I don't believe I have ever heard anyone recite a Shuruk, not even at the weirdest Bar Mitzvah I have ever been to...

Anyways, to me and a few people I know, Shuruk is a vowel sound, like an apostrophe would be for it's, but also like a vowel sound, such as E like street, is ee its own letter?... This for us is the way we use it.

Have a good night, I hope to be back in a few weeks or month to post some things I am doing with Vertices of the 'Two Triangles'. I am using this site as a basis for going forward on a few theories...

Until next time.
I don't understand. When you say "shuruk" you are talking about the vav at the end of eloheinu, right? You are saying that letter should not be there? That it is not pronounced? I've always heard it pronounced. You can listen to it here (http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Scripture/Torah/The_Shema/the_shema.html) where it is spoken and here (http://www.learnhebrewprayers.com/special/shema.html) where it is sung. Are you saying you've never head it that way before? Here's another example (http://dailyzohar.com/shema-israel/). Everyone I've ever heard pronounces the "o" or "u" and the end of eloheinu.

Channard
01-30-2013, 07:17 AM
I don't understand. When you say "shuruk" you are talking about the vav at the end of eloheinu, right? You are saying that letter should not be there? That it is not pronounced? I've always heard it pronounced. You can listen to it here (http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Scripture/Torah/The_Shema/the_shema.html) where it is spoken and here (http://www.learnhebrewprayers.com/special/shema.html) where it is sung. Are you saying you've never head it that way before? Here's another example (http://dailyzohar.com/shema-israel/). Everyone I've ever heard pronounces the "o" or "u" and the end of eloheinu.


אֱלֹהֵינוּ = Aleph 1, Lamed 30, Yud 10, Hey 5, Nun 50, Vav 6, and the Shuruk 10: 112
אֱלֹהֵינוּ = Aleph 1, Lamed 30, Yud 10, Hey 5, Nun 50, Vav 6, and no Shuruk: 102

Yes, I left off the Vav in my count (My first post - no Vav), I didn't include it at all, so this misunderstanding is all my fault on the Vav and the Shuruk. 102 is the 100% correct value i believe. The Shuruk in your version is not counted as it shouldn't be... I apologize to you for the confusion I made and to the Vav for leaving him out.

Richard Amiel McGough
01-30-2013, 09:38 AM
אֱלֹהֵינוּ = Aleph 1, Lamed 30, Yud 10, Hey 5, Nun 50, Vav 6, and the Shuruk 10: 112
אֱלֹהֵינוּ = Aleph 1, Lamed 30, Yud 10, Hey 5, Nun 50, Vav 6, and no Shuruk: 102

Yes, I left off the Vav in my count (My first post - no Vav), I didn't include it at all, so this misunderstanding is all my fault on the Vav and the Shuruk. 102 is the 100% correct value i believe. The Shuruk in your version is not counted as it shouldn't be... I apologize to you for the confusion I made and to the Vav for leaving him out.
Hey there Channard,

Thanks for clearing that up! :thumb:

I have never explored the gematria of vowel points. As I said in a previous post, there are just too many possibilities to sort out so I started with what seemed to be the most fundamental so I would have a solid basis from which to work.