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Richard Amiel McGough
11-24-2011, 05:56 PM
The fall of 1990 was a time of great change for me. I was on a serious spiritual quest. I quit smoking and began exercising and eating better. I daily practiced Zazen meditation to quiet my mind and expand my consciousness. I also began recording and analyzing my dreams and was intensely interested in synchronicity. I was reading many books about the Kabbalah, Gematria (Hebrew Numerology), Tree of Life, Tarot, and similar esoteric topics. I did not, at that time, consider myself a Christian in any way at all.

Then on the morning of November 24, 1990 I had a dream that changed my life. I found myself floating in a blank space half aware that I was dreaming when a woman with black hair in a red sweater suddenly appeared and said:
Are you looking for Dumbo? 12 x 44.

That was the entire dream. I awoke, wrote it down, and went back to sleep. I still have the journal in which I recorded and analyzed it. The first thing I did was to look up the symbolic meaning of the numbers 12 and 44 in Aleister Crowley’s Gematria book called 777 where I found that 44 was the value of the Hebrew word דם (DM, dawm) meaning blood. I immediately noticed that this correlated with the first two the consonants in DuMbo. This gave me the feeling that I had 'received information' in the dream, since I had only begun to study Hebrew gematria a few weeks earlier and did not know that word or it's numerical value.

I then looked up the product 528 = 12 x 44 and found that it was the sum of all the natural numbers from 1 to 32. Mathematicians call such numbers 'triangular' because they count the number of dots in a triangular array. Kabbalists call them 'Mystic Numbers' because the are supposed to "sum up" the mystical meaning of that number. Having this knowledge, I was astounded to find that the number given in my dream was the Mystic Number of the 32nd Path on the Tree of Life that leads from Malkuth to Yesod, the foundation of spiritual consciousness. Furthermore, the 32nd Path corresponds to the Universe Card of the Major Arcana in the Tarot and the final letter of the Hebrew alphabet Tav. Thus, I interpreted this information given in my dream to be something like the 'Mystic Number of the Universe' or more simply, the 'Key to the Universe' which is what I wrote in my journal though I had no understanding of what that really meant as yet.

As I continued my analysis, I began to notice subtle associations with other dreams I had recorded. The first big night of dreams happened on November 4th when I dreamed that my boss, Sheri, 'had a keyboard with over 400 sounds sampled.' This naturally linked to the numerical value of Tav (400) and the idea of a 'key' board gave me a sense of a the 22 letters as 'keys' to this spiritual reality I was discovering. I also felt there was a connection with a dream that I had on November 16:
I am in a music store. There is a blind woman at the bottom of a one mile long staircase. She’s wearing a white robe. She said it took her over a year to climb out. She said the grace of God saved her. I climbed with her, reiterating her steps. I was then supposed to sit and meditate at the top of the stairs.

I noted that one mile equals 5,280 feet, or ten times my dream number. I had a very strong intuition that these dreams were connected, so I began to pay even closer attention each night. And then on December 1 I had this very lucid dream (verbatim from my dream journal):
A master wants to play me a game of pool. I feel I know nothing. The master was very eager to play and wanted to bet large sums. He said, 'OK, just 2 or 3 bucks.' He showed me a book where a beginner won the Crown in 15 moves.

I spent a lot of time analyzing the elements of these dreams. I would look for puns, homophones, numerical values of the Hebrew words corresponding to the dream elements – anything and everything I could think of to try to make sense of it all. On December 4th I wrote 'In a Kabbalistic universe there is no throw-away information. Nothing is meaningless in a universe which manifests the mind of God.' So I analyzed everything and everything was numinous and the world felt like a vibrantly living semantic cosmos. Everything I encountered was glowing – like a living symbol that would release its secret if I meditated intently upon it. For example, on the morning of the dream, I noticed that it happened on 11/16 and 11 x 16 was half of 528. I was thinking about this the next evening when I went out to dinner at Ezell’s and found an entry form for a chance to win an Isuzu truck inside a flyer with the number 22 in a circle with wings atop a caduceus that seemed very significant. The drawing was on December 22. Here is what I wrote in my journal:
The drawing for the truck will be on Dec 22, i.e. 12/22 and 2 x (12 x 22) = 12 x 44. A rather obvious date – does this mean I’m going to win a car, or is it a reiteration of the date, a cosmic resonance?

I share this to show that I was taking note of every detail. Everything was now in place for the 'Big Event.' On December 22 I went to work as usual at the Gob Shoppe. Here is what I wrote in my journal:
Just had a customer, who bought some stuff that came to $13.52. I said, holding up a red pill box, 'that’s $3.00' and rang it up for a total of $13.52. He said 'Uh, they’re $2.00.' I asked him to double check, since they were $3.00. Someone had changed the price. So I voided the $3.00 and entered $2.00 for a total of $12.44. Then it dawned on me. Today is 12/22 = ½ x (12 x 44) which is the date that I had the Dumbo 12 x 44 dream.

I felt this was an extremely profound synchronicity because it involved a question of two or three dollars over a pill (pool?) box. I was thinking about this later at home and began to wonder what time the transaction happened. Here is what I wrote in my journal the next day:
Got to work, anxious to look at the receipt from yesterday’s synchronicity. What I found BLEW AWAY WHAT EVER WAS LEFT OF DOUBT. The 12 x 44 = 528 transaction happened at 5:28 PM.

The transaction happened at 5:28 PM on 12/22 and came to a total of $12.44 and it naturally connected with the dream about a master who wanted to play a game of pool (pill) for $2.00 or $3.00 dollars. And the sum of the multiplied dates for the Dumbo dream and this transaction was, of course, 11 x 24 + 12 x 22 = 528. Here is a picture of the actual receipt from my journal:

133

I was absolutely flabbergasted that all these elements from my dreams could come together like this. It left an indelible impression on my mind. But one thing was lacking. What does it all mean? It took me about a year to come to my first solid answer to that question.

Armed now with a solid conviction that I could find an answer I spent all my waking hours learning everything I could that might relate. I spent many hours in the bar with a beer, a Bible, and a calculator looking for patterns that might bring the answer to light. It was during this time that I discovered my first Biblical holographs and began to fall in love with the Old Testament. I even wondered if I were being led to convert to be a Jew. I had no real interest in the New Testament at that time. Finally, in July of 1991 I found the first puzzle piece that would give me the answer I was looking for. The Number 528 as the value of the word מפתח (maphte’ach, key) found in the book of the prophet Isaiah:
Isaiah 22:22 And the key (528) of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

I was floored. Absolutely floored. Here I was, after seven months of study, looking at the literal confirmation of my intuition that the number 528 was some sort of "key" to the universe! But still, I didn’t understand how it functioned as a 'key.' And I still did not understand the connection with the numbers 12 and 44. So I continued my search, and found this:
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

The actual Hebrew translated as 'in the blood' is בדם הוא (b'dawm hu). It literally means 'in his blood.' The Bet prefix means 'in' and dawm means blood, and hu means 'he" or "of him' depending on context. And the numerical values? They are hu = 12 and dm = 44. I had found the meaning of the key! It was "His Blood." And look at the Hebrew: b'dawm hu is a simple metathesis of Dumbo! I knew I had found what I was looking for. But there was one more question. Whose blood are we talking about? I don't have time now to detail the process of discovery, so I'll just give you the result. The Number 6 is the Number of the Cosmos (Universe). Here is the name of he who holds its key:

Kυριος Iησους Xριστος (LORD JESUS CHRIST) = 3168 = 6 (Cosmos) x 528 (Key)

Man, this stuff still gives me the goose-bumps!

Now you can see why I became a fundamentalist. I had this knowledge before I discovered the Bible Wheel.

heb13-13
11-24-2011, 06:17 PM
That's awesome, Richard! I've got goosebumps too.
Very personal and intimate. Someone knows how to speak to you.

Who or what do you think the source of those dreams and synchronities are, today?
Thanks for sharing,
Rick

Richard Amiel McGough
11-24-2011, 06:20 PM
That's awesome, Richard! I've got goosebumps too.
Very personal and intimate. Someone knows how to speak to you.

Who or what do you think the source of those dreams and synchronities are, today?
Thanks for sharing,
Rick
That question currently mystifies me.

I have not been "out of the closet" long enough to catch my breath really. Why do you think I never told this story when I was a Christian? They would have crucified me.

heb13-13
11-24-2011, 07:30 PM
That question currently mystifies me.

I have not been "out of the closet" long enough to catch my breath really. Why do you think I never told this story when I was a Christian? They would have crucified me.

Sadly, you are probably right.

I'm thankful God is not constricted by any religion.

That was a cool story.
Rick

RC Christian
11-24-2011, 07:34 PM
Brother-man...you shared it!!! And it is awesome! I love it! I've wondered for so long how many people have these types of 'splendor' happen in their lives. It's easy to hear Chopra and guys like that talk about it, but when it's happening to you...and in a powerful, overwhelming way, it just seems like no one can relate to what you're experiencing.

And...surprise, surprise...I thought I was the only one that wrote all the mystical (and in retrospect, sometimes crazy) stuff down. I still find pieces of paper in books where I've jotted down ideas, numbers, diagrams, etc. I still have the statement that I wrote down after the first one I got on the night that altered the path of my life, about 3 years ago. Long story, but the statement I...was 'given'??? ...was:


"Religion and socialization are the tyrannies of genius"


Man, and then the fun began...

Thanks for posting that and sharing it with everyone. I think it's beautiful and the dream was 'God'-inspired!!!!

You were being used as a channel, dude! :smiley_applause:

heb13-13
11-24-2011, 07:43 PM
Brother-man...you shared it!!! And it is awesome! I love it! I've wondered for so long how many people have these types of 'splendor' happen in their lives. It's easy to hear Chopra and guys like that talk about it, but when it's happening to you...and in a powerful, overwhelming way, it just seems like no one can relate to what you're experiencing.

And...surprise, surprise...I thought I was the only one that wrote all the mystical (and in retrospect, sometimes crazy) stuff down. I still find pieces of paper in books where I've jotted down ideas, numbers, diagrams, etc. I still have the statement that I wrote down after the first one I got on the night that altered the path of my life, about 3 years ago. Long story, but the statement I...was 'given'??? ...was:


"Religion and socialization are the tyrannies of genius"


Man, and then the fun began...

Thanks for posting that and sharing it with everyone. I think it's beautiful and the dream was 'God'-inspired!!!!

You were being used as a channel, dude! :smiley_applause:


"Religion and socialization are the tyrannies of genius"


Man, I sure agree with that! We probably differ on the source of the "genius", though.

But, definitely agree.

RC Christian
11-24-2011, 07:53 PM
"Religion and socialization are the tyrannies of genius"


Man, I sure agree with that! We probably differ on the source of the "genius", though.

But, definitely agree.


Heb13-13,

I knew you would agree with that. It's all the dogma, doctrines, and control that really poisons people's minds who are searching for Truth...and I've read in your post the liberty that you have found vs "religion" :thumb:

The genius, in my view, is the essence of God...creativity...the way we were created to be in the first place. We're creative geniuses created like our Maker...that's how I understand "In His image and in His likeness".

heb13-13
11-24-2011, 08:19 PM
Heb13-13,

I knew you would agree with that. It's all the dogma, doctrines, and control that really poisons people's minds who are searching for Truth...and I've read in your post the liberty that you have found vs "religion" :thumb:

The genius, in my view, is the essence of God...creativity...the way we were created to be in the first place. We're creative geniuses created like our Maker...that's how I understand "In His image and in His likeness".

Oh sorry, I thought you meant a "genius" behind the religion and socialization.

It's genius how man has been brought into so much religious bondage, too.

All the best,
Rick

RC Christian
11-24-2011, 09:18 PM
Oh sorry, I thought you meant a "genius" behind the religion and socialization.

It's genius how man has been brought into so much religious bondage, too.

All the best,
Rick

Amen to that!

Richard Amiel McGough
11-24-2011, 09:24 PM
Brother-man...you shared it!!! And it is awesome! I love it! I've wondered for so long how many people have these types of 'splendor' happen in their lives. It's easy to hear Chopra and guys like that talk about it, but when it's happening to you...and in a powerful, overwhelming way, it just seems like no one can relate to what you're experiencing.

And...surprise, surprise...I thought I was the only one that wrote all the mystical (and in retrospect, sometimes crazy) stuff down. I still find pieces of paper in books where I've jotted down ideas, numbers, diagrams, etc. I still have the statement that I wrote down after the first one I got on the night that altered the path of my life, about 3 years ago. Long story, but the statement I...was 'given'??? ...was:


"Religion and socialization are the tyrannies of genius"


Man, and then the fun began...

Thanks for posting that and sharing it with everyone. I think it's beautiful and the dream was 'God'-inspired!!!!

You were being used as a channel, dude! :smiley_applause:
Thanks for enthusiastic reply brother-man. And yes, I saw a lot of stuff in my old journal that made me think - man, what you thinking? It's a little scary being open and honest about the inner workings of your mind. I feel a little naked ... but then again, we're all born that way, eh? Maybe if more of us took a risk and admitted we didn't have any clothes it would be a little easier to get everyone to admit the emperor don't got no clothes either and so we can finally throw the faker out!

Religion is socialization. And it's very difficult to free yourself, since you think with the same metaphors that couch religion. How do you think yourself out of the box if the box is made of the very words you think with?

Perhaps we need a new kind of thinking. Visual. Holistic. Integrated Left/Right hemisphere with higher consciousness being the arc between them.

If heaven and earth are yin and yang, which is which? If they are left and right brain, which is which? Is the corpus callosum the mediator that joins heaven and earth? Could we see the entire Bible as metaphor of mind?

debz
11-25-2011, 10:54 AM
Richard....I LOVE this story! Thanks for sharing it with us!

More things to ponder: Jesus didn’t come to start the religion of Christianity. I believe that most of what is thought to be Christianity and practiced as Christianity is really far off from what Jesus and the early apostles taught—He wanted to set people free from religious bondage, not bring them into it. Jesus taught primarily about the kingdom (realm of freedom, righteousness, peace and joy found IN the Holy Spirit (the Divine Presence). And, the kingdom doesn’t consist of words, but of power—the supernatural. Jesus didn’t say, it is better that I go away, because then a book can be written about Me to lead you into all truth—He said it was better because then the Holy Spirit could be sent, Who would lead us into all Truth. This doesn’t mean I discount the Bible at all, it’s just that many Christians seem to think the trinity is Father, Son and Holy Bible, and really do not have a relationship with the Holy Spirit—they all believe they do, of course, but much of what they describe as the Holy Spirit leading them is just their conscience—which is still good to follow, but it is not what is meant by being led by the Holy Spirit. What you describe in this story is one aspect of being led by the Holy Spirit—He speaks through dreams, visions, mysteries, etc.

It is the good news of the KINGDOM that Jesus and the early apostles taught—most Christians have reduced that to the gospel of salvation—I believe they are profoundly different (salvation is just one part of it). But it is this gospel of the KINGDOM that is supposed to be a testimony to all the earth before 'the end' can come (Mt 24:14). This is a 'realm' – of righteousness, perfection, and salvation (wholeness, complete health in body, mind and spirit) – this is God’s 'reign' or His 'Kingdom.' This is what Jesus came preaching: 'change your way of thinking, because now this realm is available' (aka, 'repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand’).

It is the realm described 'in the beginning': In the beginning it was 'on earth, as it is in heaven' (why Jesus taught to pray this) – there was a dual-dimension where heaven & earth connected—the spiritual was seen as clearly as the natural. It is the reason, I believe, that we have Gen 1 creation (spiritual) and Gen 2 creation (natural). God’s Presence was with man (Adam/Eve as one), they lived in His Presence (Life). They 'walked with God' in complete freedom: spiritually, emotionally, physically (naked & unashamed). They lived in The LIFE and were supposed to be partaking of the 'Tree of Life.' LIFE was good. This was lost when they disobeyed and ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil—now 'death' entered the world and they were cut off from the Tree of Life. Where once they had protection in their dominion over the earth, in partnership with God, now that control and dominion was transferred to the evil one—the whole world became under the control of the evil one at this point (1 Jn 5:19).

God delegated the dominion/authority over earth to humans while He retained the reign in the heavens:

'The heavens — the heavens [are] Jehovah's, And the earth He hath given to sons of men,' Ps 115:16 YLT

God delegated the reign to humans, but then humans gave the dominion to the evil one. Because of this, He cannot act now without their cooperation—and also because of this, the evil one can give authority to those who belong to him (as he tried to do when tempting Jesus). We see from 'the fall' forward pictures and types of those who seek His Righteousness (e.g. Abel bringing an acceptable offering), vs. those who are still 'religious'—still 'worshipping God,' but doing it in the strength of their flesh (e.g. Cain, who 'worked the soil' and brought an offering from his own 'strength'—Cain 'belonged to the evil one' 1 Jn 3:12). These brothers are the first picture of the age-old battle of those who are 'religious' (still doing the 'right and good things' based on their 'knowledge' of 'good and evil'—still eating from that tree…), and those who seek His Righteousness, His Life, His Presence—the realm of the Kingdom.

Rose
11-25-2011, 11:22 AM
Richard....I LOVE this story! Thanks for sharing it with us!

More things to ponder: Jesus didn’t come to start the religion of Christianity. I believe that most of what is thought to be Christianity and practiced as Christianity is really far off from what Jesus and the early apostles taught—He wanted to set people free from religious bondage, not bring them into it. Jesus taught primarily about the kingdom (realm of freedom, righteousness, peace and joy found IN the Holy Spirit (the Divine Presence). And, the kingdom doesn’t consist of words, but of power—the supernatural. Jesus didn’t say, it is better that I go away, because then a book can be written about Me to lead you into all truth—He said it was better because then the Holy Spirit could be sent, Who would lead us into all Truth.
Hi Debz

I think you are absolutely right! :thumb: The message that Jesus taught was freedom...freedom from the bondage of Old Covenant Law that oppressed its followers and freedom from the inequalities the law imposed upon women and those of other beliefs (Gentiles). It is too bad that the early church fathers who started the Christian faith chose to turn his teachings into a religion of rules, and laws, much like the one they were freed from. :mad:


This doesn’t mean I discount the Bible at all, it’s just that many Christians seem to think the trinity is Father, Son and Holy Bible, and really do not have a relationship with the Holy Spirit—they all believe they do, of course, but much of what they describe as the Holy Spirit leading them is just their conscience—which is still good to follow, but it is not what is meant by being led by the Holy Spirit. What you describe in this story is one aspect of being led by the Holy Spirit—He speaks through dreams, visions, mysteries, etc.




Using myself as an example I would say that ALL of what people call the leading of the Holy Spirit is just their own conscience. Before I became a Christian, and through all the years when I was a Christian believer and was filled with the Holy Spirit, the inner voice I followed remained the same...it was always my conscience and my intuition that guided me...and even now nothing has changed.

All the best,
Rose

Richard Amiel McGough
11-25-2011, 11:41 AM
Richard....I LOVE this story! Thanks for sharing it with us!

Hey there Deb,

Thanks for the encouraging words! We should all "come out" a little more and check the weather ... it might not be as stormy as people think!



More things to ponder: Jesus didn’t come to start the religion of Christianity. I believe that most of what is thought to be Christianity and practiced as Christianity is really far off from what Jesus and the early apostles taught—He wanted to set people free from religious bondage, not bring them into it. Jesus taught primarily about the kingdom (realm of freedom, righteousness, peace and joy found IN the Holy Spirit (the Divine Presence). And, the kingdom doesn’t consist of words, but of power—the supernatural. Jesus didn’t say, it is better that I go away, because then a book can be written about Me to lead you into all truth—He said it was better because then the Holy Spirit could be sent, Who would lead us into all Truth. This doesn’t mean I discount the Bible at all, it’s just that many Christians seem to think the trinity is Father, Son and Holy Bible, and really do not have a relationship with the Holy Spirit—they all believe they do, of course, but much of what they describe as the Holy Spirit leading them is just their conscience—which is still good to follow, but it is not what is meant by being led by the Holy Spirit. What you describe in this story is one aspect of being led by the Holy Spirit—He speaks through dreams, visions, mysteries, etc.

Very well stated! The difference between words and power reminds me of the left (verbal/abstract) and right (visual/intuitive) hemispheres of the brain. We need both to function as humans, but there has been a HUGE imbalance towards the left hemisphere for the last few thousand years, and it is largely due to the introduction of alphabetic reading according to Leonard Shlain in his The Alphabet versus the Goddess. Paul recognized this also when he said that "the letter killeth but the spirit giveth life." The institutions aer defined by the DOGMA they teach. And many Christians believe that the religion is defined by the CREEDS = WORDS that people must agree to regardless of what their hearts might be telling them.

Perhaps the greatest irony is the Doctrine of the Trinity. Ask any common Christian what it really means and you will probably find that they have no idea at all. Yet it is taken as the sin qua non the defines an authentic Christian. Therefore, the fundamental requirement to be a Christian is, for most people, to assert belief in something they don't even understand, let alone beleive! In other words, it looks like the entrance test for institutional Christianity is a willingness to assert absolute blind faith in an incomprehensible doctrine. What does that tell about the kind of "mind" required to be a member of institutional Christianity?



It is the good news of the KINGDOM that Jesus and the early apostles taught—most Christians have reduced that to the gospel of salvation—I believe they are profoundly different (salvation is just one part of it). But it is this gospel of the KINGDOM that is supposed to be a testimony to all the earth before 'the end' can come (Mt 24:14). This is a 'realm' – of righteousness, perfection, and salvation (wholeness, complete health in body, mind and spirit) – this is God’s 'reign' or His 'Kingdom.' This is what Jesus came preaching: 'change your way of thinking, because now this realm is available' (aka, 'repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand’).

I don't experience any "freedom" like that at all when I think of Christianity. On the contrary, it feels much more like being imprisoned in a world of ideas imposed upon me by ghosts of long dead dogamatists. Why should we believe any of it? Yes, there are powerful symbols in Christianity, but we need to use our minds and make our own judgments about what they mean. The poeple with the big buildings who have made a business/cult out of religion have no hold on my soul at all.

BTW - it seems to me that the "end" in Matt 24 happened in 70 AD. Jesus made it as plain as plain can be. He began his discourse by predicting the destruction of the Temple, and said it would all come down upon "this generation" - that is, the first century generation that heard him speak. And this is exactly what happened.



It is the realm described 'in the beginning': In the beginning it was 'on earth, as it is in heaven' (why Jesus taught to pray this) – there was a dual-dimension where heaven & earth connected—the spiritual was seen as clearly as the natural. It is the reason, I believe, that we have Gen 1 creation (spiritual) and Gen 2 creation (natural). God’s Presence was with man (Adam/Eve as one), they lived in His Presence (Life). They 'walked with God' in complete freedom: spiritually, emotionally, physically (naked & unashamed). They lived in The LIFE and were supposed to be partaking of the 'Tree of Life.' LIFE was good. This was lost when they disobeyed and ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil—now 'death' entered the world and they were cut off from the Tree of Life. Where once they had protection in their dominion over the earth, in partnership with God, now that control and dominion was transferred to the evil one—the whole world became under the control of the evil one at this point (1 Jn 5:19).

The gnostics have a saying "as above, so below" that echoes "on earth as it is in heaven."

I'm not so sure there is a real distinction between "spiritual" and "natural." It may just be a difference of perspective.

God set up the garden with the inent for Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit. If it was the divine intent it could not bad - it just looks bad from our current perspective. Just like a child feels the mother is being cruel for denying it her breast when it is time to wean. Could be what this whole experience on planet earth is really all about. We are being "weaned" off God's breast so we can exist individually. Many people note profound links to the psychological process of individuation in the Genesis myth.

In general, I think you are "looking backwards" at an imaginary world that never existed. It's like folks who imagine we have fallen from some "Golden age" in the past. The symbols in the myth of the Garden may well be telling us a profound truth about our origin, but it would be an error in my estimation if we were to literalize it and think there really was an Adam and Eve that really "walked" with God and really "ate" some fruit. If the myth means anything, it must be symbolic. This is confirmed by everything else in Genesis 1-3 that verily screams MYTHOLOGY! Don't get me wrong - myth does not mean false. Jesus taught in parables that were not literally true. Same thing here.



God delegated the dominion/authority over earth to humans while He retained the reign in the heavens:

'The heavens — the heavens [are] Jehovah's, And the earth He hath given to sons of men,' Ps 115:16 YLT

God delegated the reign to humans, but then humans gave the dominion to the evil one. Because of this, He cannot act now without their cooperation—and also because of this, the evil one can give authority to those who belong to him (as he tried to do when tempting Jesus). We see from 'the fall' forward pictures and types of those who seek His Righteousness (e.g. Abel bringing an acceptable offering), vs. those who are still 'religious'—still 'worshipping God,' but doing it in the strength of their flesh (e.g. Cain, who 'worked the soil' and brought an offering from his own 'strength'—Cain 'belonged to the evil one' 1 Jn 3:12). These brothers are the first picture of the age-old battle of those who are 'religious' (still doing the 'right and good things' based on their 'knowledge' of 'good and evil'—still eating from that tree…), and those who seek His Righteousness, His Life, His Presence—the realm of the Kingdom.
Well, I can echo your sentiment between freedom and individuality vs. religion. But I don't think I would express it quite the same way. You ideas seem to be based on the "dominator model" that I see as archaic and worthy of rejection. Why is Christianity so obsessed with "dominion" and hence DOMINATION over others? It seems profoundly sexist to me. Domination over nature is a symbol of domination over women and that is the symbol (and symptom) of the linear, verbal, dogmatic, neophobic left brain dominating over the intuitive, holisticic, open-minded, neophilic right brain. And that is the split that severs the link between heaven and earth (not unlike the corpus callosum).

Well now, there sure is a lot to discuss! Thanks for sharing,

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
11-25-2011, 11:45 AM
Using myself as an example I would say that ALL of what people call the leading of the Holy Spirit is just their own conscience. Before I became a Christian, and through all the years when I was a Christian believer and was filled with the Holy Spirit, the inner voice I followed remained the same...it was always my conscience and my intuition that guided me...and even now nothing has changed.

I must agree. People who believe that they are being led by God's Spirit are, in fact, being led by their own intutition. There is no way to tell the difference. Indeed, even if the "Spirit of God" were leading a person, how is that leadership effected? The answer is obvious - the vast majority of such folks don't actually hear a voice or see a vision. They claim that they get a "conviction" in their spirit that they interpret as the "leading" of God's Spirit.

debz
11-25-2011, 01:19 PM
BTW - it seems to me that the "end" in Matt 24 happened in 70 AD. Jesus made it as plain as plain can be. He began his discourse by predicting the destruction of the Temple, and said it would all come down upon "this generation" - that is, the first century generation that heard him speak. And this is exactly what happened.

IMO, and from the pictures I've seen of the ruins of the temple, there are still some "stones left on others," and He said that everystone would be thrown down. Also, that all these things would happen within one generation, but I don't believe it meant within that generation. I know you have other threads on eschatology, so I won't get into it more here. However, since this is a "synchronicity" thread, if you read the rest of what I wrote on the "555" synchronicity, it could reveal to you more of how I see things. For example, you said it appears as if I am "looking backward," but to me, I am looking forward to a restoration of this realm--a restoration of the heaven & earth connection.

As for the dominion thing: I see what you're saying, and I also do not agree with that dominionism theory as it is understood by many. It is not for men to have dominion over other men--and especially not for men to have dominion over women (see my posts in Male Bias of the Bible). It is being a representative of the kingdom, bringing the kingdom's "rule" and "reign" in order to make things better on earth, not worse.

(I do not know how to quote multiple sentences from your original...that's why only quoted that one phrase...is there a tutorial somewhere? LOL)

Richard Amiel McGough
11-25-2011, 02:41 PM
IMO, and from the pictures I've seen of the ruins of the temple, there are still some "stones left on others," and He said that everystone would be thrown down. Also, that all these things would happen within one generation, but I don't believe it meant within that generation. I know you have other threads on eschatology, so I won't get into it more here. However, since this is a "synchronicity" thread, if you read the rest of what I wrote on the "555" synchronicity, it could reveal to you more of how I see things. For example, you said it appears as if I am "looking backward," but to me, I am looking forward to a restoration of this realm--a restoration of the heaven & earth connection.

As for the dominion thing: I see what you're saying, and I also do not agree with that dominionism theory as it is understood by many. It is not for men to have dominion over other men--and especially not for men to have dominion over women (see my posts in Male Bias of the Bible). It is being a representative of the kingdom, bringing the kingdom's "rule" and "reign" in order to make things better on earth, not worse.

(I do not know how to quote multiple sentences from your original...that's why only quoted that one phrase...is there a tutorial somewhere? LOL)
This is definitely not the thread in which I would want to pursue eschatology. But let me say one thing - if Jesus really meant ALL the stones in the fashion suggest, then the prophecy is very misleading because Jesus began by predicting the destruction of the Temple and we know that happened in 70 AD when all the stones of the Temple were indeed thrown down. You interpretation is a false literalism that obscures the plain and obvious meaning of the text. Jesus was talking about the destruction of the Temple, not the configuration of the stones in the retaining wall! If your interpretation were correct, it would mean that Jesus made a prediction that only "looks like" it was fulfilled, but really wasn't fulfilled at all. That obliterates the meaning of the entire Olivet Discourse which was predicated on his assertion that the Temple would be destroyed during the lifetime of the generation that heard him. And worse, it destroys the historical witness to the fulfillment of his prophecy in 70 AD which many Christians have seen as the greatest single proof of the divine inspiration of the Christian religion. If you want to pursue this, please read this post (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?1433-Preterist-interpretation-of-the-Olivet-Discourse-DOMINATES-Church-History&p=17373#post17373) and reply in that thread.

As for who to work with the quotes, I wrote up something in a thread called How to quote posts in replies (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2599-How-to-quote-posts-in-replies.). Take a look at that and let me know if it helps. And don't be shy! If you have a question, I can assure you that ten others will have the same question, so it will help everyone if you ask.

debz
11-26-2011, 03:39 PM
As I continued my analysis, I began to notice subtle associations with other dreams I had recorded. The first big night of dreams happened on November 4th when I dreamed that my boss, Sheri, 'had a keyboard with over 400 sounds sampled.' This naturally linked to the numerical value of Tav (400) and the idea of a 'key' board gave me a sense of a the 22 letters as 'keys' to this spiritual reality I was discovering. I also felt there was a connection with a dream that I had on November 16:
I am in a music store. There is a blind woman at the bottom of a one mile long staircase. She’s wearing a white robe. She said it took her over a year to climb out. She said the grace of God saved her. I climbed with her, reiterating her steps. I was then supposed to sit and meditate at the top of the stairs.

I noted that one mile equals 5,280 feet, or ten times my dream number. I had a very strong intuition that these dreams were connected, so I began to pay even closer attention each night. And then on December 1 I had this very lucid dream (verbatim from my dream journal):[INDENT]A master wants to play me a game of pool. I feel I know nothing. The master was very eager to play and wanted to bet large sums. He said, 'OK, just 2 or 3 bucks.' He showed me a book where a beginner won the Crown in 15 moves.

Hi Richard...if you can get past my differing eschatological view, and whatever other beliefs I hold that are different from yours, LOL, I think you will find a LOT of insight from my 555 doc related to these two dreams. There is much in there on the number 15 -- which I personally see as directly correlating with the statement "He showed me a book where a beginner wone the Crown in 15 moves" -- and about the stairs...

Richard Amiel McGough
11-26-2011, 05:43 PM
Hi Richard...if you can get past my differing eschatological view, and whatever other beliefs I hold that are different from yours, LOL, I think you will find a LOT of insight from my 555 doc related to these two dreams. There is much in there on the number 15 -- which I personally see as directly correlating with the statement "He showed me a book where a beginner wone the Crown in 15 moves" -- and about the stairs...
I'd love to explore any line of thought you feel is significant. I never really got clear about the number 15 in my analysis of the dream. I can't say I really know what it means like the other numbers 12, 44, 400, 528 that appeared in those dreams.

As for eschatology ~ maybe we'll both have to get past our differences. :winking0071:

debz
11-26-2011, 07:10 PM
I'd love to explore any line of thought you feel is significant. I never really got clear about the number 15 in my analysis of the dream. I can't say I really know what it means like the other numbers 12, 44, 400, 528 that appeared in those dreams.

As for eschatology ~ maybe we'll both have to get past our differences. :winking0071:

LOL...I hear you. What I meant was that I hoped you wouldn't "throw the baby out with the bath water" simply because of the issues we do disagree on. The number 15 is deeply entrenched with the Feast of Tabernacles, which I believe is the only feast that has never yet been completely fulfilled. There were 15 steps in the temple that "connected" the court of women with the court of men (aka Court of Israel). Here's a quote from MSS:

"The fifteen steps hold even more revelation related to the time of Tabernacles. On each of the eight days of the Feast, the Levites stood upon these steps and sang the 15 Psalms of Ascent, Ps. 120-134 (also note: 15 steps x 8 days=120—again, this is not a coincidence!). These 15 Psalms have also been described as 'Pilgrim Songs,' because the Israelites sang them when they 'went up' to Jerusalem to keep the Feast. Others have said they were sung by the returning exiles when they 'went up' to Jerusalem from Babylon. Both of these pilgrimages are symbolic for us—we are journeying out of Babylon, meaning confusion (religious, political, and economical): 'come out of her My people…' (Rev. 18:4), and we are journeying to the 'New Jerusalem' (the 'Most Holy Place' of His Presence). These are Songs for pilgrims not content with status quo religion or being part of a 'system' of mere rules that put limits on the Spirit."

Sacred name of Jah is Yod (10) + Heh (5), masculine + feminine.

Psalms of Ascent are separated into three sections of 5 Psalms each = 5+5+5 (I've been seeing the synchronicity of "555" every day for over 20 years, which is what led me into this to begin with...)

Most all of the measurements of the ark were multiples of 15 ("as it was in the day of Noah...").

Gematria 555: "and Enoch walked," power (dunamis), "free" (as in, "the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother").

This is just a small taste...there is WAY more than the tidbits I am presenting here....and if anyone else wants to read about this, PM me your email address and I will send you a copy.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-26-2011, 11:51 PM
LOL...I hear you. What I meant was that I hoped you wouldn't "throw the baby out with the bath water" simply because of the issues we do disagree on. The number 15 is deeply entrenched with the Feast of Tabernacles, which I believe is the only feast that has never yet been completely fulfilled. There were 15 steps in the temple that "connected" the court of women with the court of men (aka Court of Israel). Here's a quote from MSS:

"The fifteen steps hold even more revelation related to the time of Tabernacles. On each of the eight days of the Feast, the Levites stood upon these steps and sang the 15 Psalms of Ascent, Ps. 120-134 (also note: 15 steps x 8 days=120—again, this is not a coincidence!). These 15 Psalms have also been described as 'Pilgrim Songs,' because the Israelites sang them when they 'went up' to Jerusalem to keep the Feast. Others have said they were sung by the returning exiles when they 'went up' to Jerusalem from Babylon. Both of these pilgrimages are symbolic for us—we are journeying out of Babylon, meaning confusion (religious, political, and economical): 'come out of her My people…' (Rev. 18:4), and we are journeying to the 'New Jerusalem' (the 'Most Holy Place' of His Presence). These are Songs for pilgrims not content with status quo religion or being part of a 'system' of mere rules that put limits on the Spirit."

Sacred name of Jah is Yod (10) + Heh (5), masculine + feminine.

Psalms of Ascent are separated into three sections of 5 Psalms each = 5+5+5 (I've been seeing the synchronicity of "555" every day for over 20 years, which is what led me into this to begin with...)

Most all of the measurements of the ark were multiples of 15 ("as it was in the day of Noah...").

Gematria 555: "and Enoch walked," power (dunamis), "free" (as in, "the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother").

This is just a small taste...there is WAY more than the tidbits I am presenting here....and if anyone else wants to read about this, PM me your email address and I will send you a copy.
Where did you get the information about the 15 steps?

It is interesting that Tri(15) = 120 = SMK (Samek) = Name of 15th letter [where Tri(n) denotes the nth triangular number].

And the 15 Psalms of ascent begin at Psalm 120 = Samek = Tri(15).

There are strong links here.

debz
11-27-2011, 12:19 AM
Where did you get the information about the 15 steps?

It is interesting that Tri(15) = 120 = SMK (Samek) = Name of 15th letter [where Tri(n) denotes the nth triangular number].

And the 15 Psalms of ascent begin at Psalm 120 = Samek = Tri(15).

There are strong links here.

EXACTLY!!!! I only quoted a very brief portion of this...that's why I have been *trying* to pique your interest so you would read it all...whether you agree with the rest of my beliefs or not! If you read it all, it will show how I came to these conclusions...

Richard Amiel McGough
11-27-2011, 01:16 PM
EXACTLY!!!! I only quoted a very brief portion of this...that's why I have been *trying* to pique your interest so you would read it all...whether you agree with the rest of my beliefs or not! If you read it all, it will show how I came to these conclusions...
OK - I'll put it on my "to do" list.

It's great having a To Do list. It's fun to check things off when done, and you have a record of everything you are doing. But the list keeps growing!

lenvande
11-28-2011, 02:08 PM
Richard,

In your Skeptics Column, you say the Bible feels more like historical fiction than historical fact. Having studied literature, I certainly understand this view, especially since tropes throughout a text or even a larger body of work are evidence of authorial design and, therefore, fabrication.

Stephen E. Jones believes that history is a progression of events that are metaphorical and, therefore, designed by the mind of God. This view interprets both the Biblical account and the entire historical record, on the one hand, as factual and, on the other, metaphoric. Therefore, Jones' conclusion is closer to both/and rather than either/or. In fact, your own personal account related above seems to fit Jones' theory. Numbers are symbols and are essentially meaningless if they are not assigned to values. The progressive revelation you received of the meaning behind the given set of symbols in your dream suggests that your own life, as well as the lives of countless others, only has meaning when it is arranged in a series of metaphorical moments throughout your physical existence.

What if the Biblical account is based on both historical fact and metaphorical symbolism? What if most of the events, whether supernatural or mundane, did happen? What if the events themselves mean something else--just like your dream, the numbers on the receipt, and your ultimate revelation that the numeric values and the name DuMBo suggests B'DawM Hu? The dream symbols by themselves were valueless and even nonsensical, but when arranged in a certain sequence and with the addition of other information, they became meaningful. Perhaps, it is this way with the events recounted in all history. We know that what happens to us within the context of time and space is historically factual and, therefore, true. We also have confidence that what happened to others in the same context earlier in the timeline is also historically factual and, therefore, true. However, if these things are likewise metaphoric, perhaps they are signs of something that is not only true, but more meaningful than what we know in this reality.

I'll be the first to admit I don't have a complete answer for you on incidents in the Bible like Numbers 31, though I do think Jones does a pretty good job with the issue because he sees God as not only liable for allowing sin and death to enter the world in the first place, but also fully intent on restoring everyone and everything to a glorified state, a state which will more than compensate for the losses people have suffered throughout history. If this is indeed what happens, it would appear the law is being fulfilled by God on the part of everyone else.

Your story is an incredible example of information outside yourself being given by something that is not limited by what we experience in a reality governed by physical laws. Though these events were supernatural, you, along with all the rest of us on this forum, have every confidence that it did happen and means something more than the information and events by themselves. Your story is both historically factual and metaphorically meaningful.

Len

Richard Amiel McGough
11-28-2011, 05:08 PM
Richard,

In your Skeptics Column, you say the Bible feels more like historical fiction than historical fact. Having studied literature, I certainly understand this view, especially since tropes throughout a text or even a larger body of work are evidence of authorial design and, therefore, fabrication.

Stephen E. Jones believes that history is a progression of events that are metaphorical and, therefore, designed by the mind of God. This view interprets both the Biblical account and the entire historical record, on the one hand, as factual and, on the other, metaphoric. Therefore, Jones' conclusion is closer to both/and rather than either/or. In fact, your own personal account related above seems to fit Jones' theory. Numbers are symbols and are essentially meaningless if they are not assigned to values. The progressive revelation you received of the meaning behind the given set of symbols in your dream suggests that your own life, as well as the lives of countless others, only has meaning when it is arranged in a series of metaphorical moments throughout your physical existence.

What if the Biblical account is based on both historical fact and metaphorical symbolism? What if most of the events, whether supernatural or mundane, did happen? What if the events themselves mean something else--just like your dream, the numbers on the receipt, and your ultimate revelation that the numeric values and the name DuMBo suggests B'DawM Hu? The dream symbols by themselves were valueless and even nonsensical, but when arranged in a certain sequence and with the addition of other information, they became meaningful. Perhaps, it is this way with the events recounted in all history. We know that what happens to us within the context of time and space is historically factual and, therefore, true. We also have confidence that what happened to others in the same context earlier in the timeline is also historically factual and, therefore, true. However, if these things are likewise metaphoric, perhaps they are signs of something that is not only true, but more meaningful than what we know in this reality.

I'll be the first to admit I don't have a complete answer for you on incidents in the Bible like Numbers 31, though I do think Jones does a pretty good job with the issue because he sees God as not only liable for allowing sin and death to enter the world in the first place, but also fully intent on restoring everyone and everything to a glorified state, a state which will more than compensate for the losses people have suffered throughout history. If this is indeed what happens, it would appear the law is being fulfilled by God on the part of everyone else.

Your story is an incredible example of information outside yourself being given by something that is not limited by what we experience in a reality governed by physical laws. Though these events were supernatural, you, along with all the rest of us on this forum, have every confidence that it did happen and means something more than the information and events by themselves. Your story is both historically factual and metaphorically meaningful.

Len
Hey there Len, :yo:

Welcome to our forum!

:welcome:

I'm really glad that you stopped by to share you insights. I have really enjoyed our conversations an Facebook but this is a better format for in-depth discussions.

Your insight that we are simultaneously living a literal and metaphorical existence makes a lot of sense to me. And when we see things in the "metaphorical" context, they are transformed and might make a new kind of sense that would never be possible when viewed only as "literal." So I really appreciate the alternate views you are offering. The only "big" challenge I see is taking the events like Numbers 31 as real in any sense at all. I just don't see how I could believe that the true God really commanded anything like that.

You will note that I am simultaneously posting things that are evidence of some sort of supernatural communication, like the Dumbo Dream, as well as skeptical points of view like Why I Quit Christianity (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2368-Why-I-quit-Christianity) and An Evolutionary Explanation of the Bible Wheel (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2630-An-Evolutionary-Explanation-of-the-Bible-Wheel). I am posting all the evidence both for and against the views I have held for the last couple decades. I invite you to comment on those threads. I find this to be the most exhilarating experience - I'm totally free to speak the truth as I see it. I no longer feel trapped by religious rules or threats of being ostracized by Christians or by God. I have nothing to lose. No religious or intellectual inhibitions. Whether God and Christianity is true or false, this is the only path that would ever prove it to me.

The posting of the Dumbo Dream has freed me from the last "secret" that I was afraid to share with the world. I couldn't share it with Christians because they'd go all apoplectic on me about the occult, and I really didn't want to share it with skeptics since they'd probably think I was nuts. But now I am free. The evidence is the evidence. The strange thing is that it seems to be pointing in two directions at once!

Again, I'm really glad you stopped by to share you wisdom, and I look forward to discussing this more. If I can find a little time I plan on writing an article about how I became a Christian in which I will share a few more "supernatural" stories that I have always thought were examples of God talking to me like in the Dumbo Dream.

All the best,

Richard

lenvande
11-29-2011, 11:42 AM
Richard,

Thanks for your compliments regarding my input. It's nice being able to share with people who are 1) on a similar path, 2) able to negotiate differences, and 3) academically and intellectually curious about spiritual matters.

Sorry if I violated any Bible Wheel forum protocols in my first official post. I understand the need to keep discussion of this level as focused as possible, so I'll make sure to stay within the bounds of the theme this time.

The corresponding numeric and alphabetic sequences given to you in the dream have had me thinking the last 48 hours. It seems the word "Dumbo" can be interpreted also as "DawM BO" (blood + to enter). Put this together with the beginning of the woman's question and you have "Are you looking for blood to enter?" Also, Dahlet-Mem-Bet-Aleph translates numerically to 4-13-2-1. Reduce the 13 to a 4 (this is the way it works in Pythagorean numerology at least), and you come out with the numbers given to you in the dream in reverse order: 1-2-4-4 vs. 4-4-2-1. Though I'm not following what you mean by the evidence seems to be pointing in two different directions at once (the dream? the Wheel?), your view does seem to be corroborated by these reversed number sequences.

Len

Richard Amiel McGough
11-29-2011, 03:21 PM
Richard,

Thanks for your compliments regarding my input. It's nice being able to share with people who are 1) on a similar path, 2) able to negotiate differences, and 3) academically and intellectually curious about spiritual matters.

Sorry if I violated any Bible Wheel forum protocols in my first official post. I understand the need to keep discussion of this level as focused as possible, so I'll make sure to stay within the bounds of the theme this time.

The corresponding numeric and alphabetic sequences given to you in the dream have had me thinking the last 48 hours. It seems the word "Dumbo" can be interpreted also as "DawM BO" (blood + to enter). Put this together with the beginning of the woman's question and you have "Are you looking for blood to enter?" Also, Dahlet-Mem-Bet-Aleph translates numerically to 4-13-2-1. Reduce the 13 to a 4 (this is the way it works in Pythagorean numerology at least), and you come out with the numbers given to you in the dream in reverse order: 1-2-4-4 vs. 4-4-2-1. Though I'm not following what you mean by the evidence seems to be pointing in two different directions at once (the dream? the Wheel?), your view does seem to be corroborated by these reversed number sequences.

Len
Hey there Len,

I really appreciate your input. I haven't ever really "brainstormed" with anyone else about the symbols in the dream, and now you and debz are both offering up insights. I find this very stimulating.

And it's a funny place to be, because the Dumbo Dream played a "key" role as an intellectual anchor in my faith. Sometimes I felt I had an "unfair advantage" because I could dismiss doubts by thinking about the ways God had talked to me in this and other dreams and synchronicities (which I hope to document soon).

And don't ever hold back for fear of "digressing" to some off-topic point. That's one of the best things about these conversations. You never know where they are going to lead. And if it get's too far off topic, we can just split off a new thread. Nothing could be easier.

Now as for you suggestion - the idea of "entrance" in the BO of DawM BO makes perfect sense in terms of the "key" = 528 = Maphte'ach (opener) and the dominance of Dalet and it's corresponding number 4 in 44 since Dalet means "Door!" So there is a lot there, and indeed, there is much more because the first occurrence of of the words door and blood are found in Genesis 4 in conjunction with the first birth the first death. There is always blood with birth and it is common with death - the two universal DOORS by which each person enters and exist this world. I talk about this in detail here (http://www.biblewheel.com/InnerWheels/Genesis/Genesis04.asp).

The blood of Christ is linked to the new birth. He is the Door. The symbology is exceedingly powerful and profound. And it's numinous to me because I received it in a dream that was confirmed by a stunning synchronicity and that led to an amazing body of discoveries that remain as solid and striking as the day I first discovered them.

I searched the Bible for any occurrence of "Dawm Bo" and did not find that exact construction, but I did find this:

Ezekiel 33:3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; 4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. 5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him [DawMU BO]. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.

That's pretty close. And it "rings bells" in my mind. It's on Spoke 4, Dalet. And I have two synchronicities calling out to me and telling me it is significant. First, look at the verse number. Today - Nov 29 - is day number 333. It is the anniversary of my marriage with Rose which is the subject of Rose's thread Our Wedding Synchronicity (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2635-Our-Wedding-Day-Synchronicity) which she posted this morning. And a very similar verse was brought to my attention yesterday to justify her attack on my for not simply accepting the Bible and Christianity:



Why any "Christian" would stay on this forum to just 'shoot the breeze' is totally unscriptural, in and of itself but if one is to witness to a backslider, they'd only use The Word - the only words that Christians base their faith on and in. Pro 3:5-7 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

2Jn 1:9-11 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine/teachings of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine/teachings of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine/teachings, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

If I were not open to the truth, this may have frightened me if I thought that I was deceitfully leading people to damnation by not using the Bible Wheel and Dumbo Dream to "convert them" from their evil ways, so their blood would be on my head. But I know better because if God and the Bible are really true, then that truth will shine of it's own accord, and the best thing I can do is get out of the way so I'm not blocking the light. And so another part of me wonders if this whole adventure of rejecting the faith is really God's mysterious way of getting me out of the picture so people can enter in through the door that opens with the key I was given. If so, I'm very thankful since I got sick and tired of walking around with that heavy revelation on my back all the time.

Now it's in the open, and I think this is the only way it could ever have been really understood because Christians have closed their minds to reality and truth and opted rather for mindless dogmas that they have received from people who received mindless dogmas from people who ... And now they have quit thinking altogether! They have lost their minds and couldn't see the truth of God no matter how it is presented.

The interpretation of anything depends on context. Our friend inquisitive posted that passage to tell Christians that they should just "warn" me and not engage me intellectually, but now I can look at the same verse as powerful confirmation that I am being synchronistically"called" to open up all the more the doors that have been opened for me. Their blood will be on my head if I fail to speak the truth as I see it! Each person is a "prophet of God" because each person emerges from this cosmos and is an expression of its essence as much as any other.

Wow ... it's getting hot in here (synchronistically speaking!) -

So now I am encouraged to open the door a little wider. Here are some of the notes I made on the morning of November 24, 1990 when I had the Dumbo Dream. The spiral was my sign for elements taken from dreams:

156

The fact that Dumbo was an Elephant made me think of the Hierophant card of Crowley's Tarot deck, which was confirmed again by the appearance of the number 16 in 528 = 16 x 33 because the Hierophant corresponds to the 16th path on the Tree of Life, connecting the Second Sephirah Chokmah (Wisdom) to the Fourth Sephirah Chesed (Mercy). Recall that 528 = 12 x 44 is the "Mystic Number" of the 32nd Path conncecting Asiah (Physical Reality) to Yesod (the Spiritual Foundation).

Here is what the wiki says (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierophant) about the hierophant:

A [B]hierophant is a person who brings religious congregants into the presence of that which is deemed holy. The word comes from Ancient Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece), where it was constructed from the combination of ta hiera, "the holy," and phainein, "to show." In Attica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attica) it was the title of the chief priest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest) at the Eleusinian Mysteries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries). A hierophant is an interpreter of sacred mysteries and arcane principles.

The word "hierophant" is from the Greek ieros (holy) and phanos (to show). And here's some more info [source (http://www.netplaces.com/gnostic-gospels/early-christianity-in-conflict/the-practices-of-early-christians.htm)]:

Feminist theologian Susan Haskins has observed that by the end of the second century, the early church father Tertullian, amazed that the women of the Gnostic sects were accorded the right to discuss religion, exorcise, heal, and baptize, wrote in opposition to the practices that (in the orthodox Christian churches) women were forbidden to speak in church, baptize, or offer the communion. In other words, women were not to usurp men's tasks. Eventually only Christian men would serve as priests, bishops, and popes, but in Gnostic churches women, even today, serve as hierophants, the equivalent of bishop in the Roman Catholic Church. In ancient Greece, a hierophant was someone who proclaimed and explained ancient sacred rites of worship or who interpreted sacred mysteries. Some modern Gnostics consider that Jesus was a hierophant, inasmuch as he imparted mysteries.

Imagine my surprise when I started studying Greek gematria a couple years later and found this identity:

Hierophant (Ιεροφάντης) = 10 + 5 + 100 + 70 + 500 + 1 + 50 + 300 + 8 + 200 = 1244

kathryn
11-29-2011, 06:29 PM
Amazing stuff! Richard, thanks for sharing this. Makes the hair on my neck stand on end.

And Len, just wanted to say welcome! I studied Levitical Law under Stephen E. Jones. IMHO , he's the most well-rounded teacher I've ever encountered. Looking forward to conversing with you.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-29-2011, 08:59 PM
Amazing stuff! Richard, thanks for sharing this. Makes the hair on my neck stand on end.

Mine too! And you won't believe what I have to share in my next post! :winking0071:



And Len, just wanted to say welcome! I studied Levitical Law under Stephen E. Jones. IMHO , he's the most well-rounded teacher I've ever encountered. Looking forward to conversing with you.
I was going to introduce you two since you both have studied under Stephen E. Jones.

Kathryn, meet Len. Len, Kathryn. :highfive:

I'm going to have to check into his writings as time permits. He has been brought to my attention more than once.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-29-2011, 10:16 PM
While having my anniversary dinner with Rose at the Red Lobster this evening, I was reflecting on the Dumbo Dream and I had a sudden new realization. A critical piece of information was missing because of the particular version of the Tarot that I was using at the time I had the dream.

160

This is the page of my journal from the morning of November 24, 1990 when began analyzing the Dumbo Dream. I was looking at various ways to write the product 12 x 44 = 528 = 3 x 4 x 4 x 11 = 16 x 33. Look at the fourth line of associations that that begins with 16 x 33 in the page above:

16 x 33 ......16 = Hierophant = Elephant - Dumbo - DM - 44

Here is what I was thinking: I had looked up the meaning of the number 44 and found it was the value of DM (dawm, blood) in Hebrew, and noted that these were the first two consonants in Dumbo. So I felt there was a connection there. I made the association with the Hierophant card of the Tarot for two reasons. First, I had just discovered that 528 was the "Mystic Number" of the 32nd Path of the Tree of Life, so I was looking to see if there were any other correlations along that line and found that the 16th Path corresponds to the Hierophant. I then felt that this was confirmed because the Hierophant in the Crowley deck I was using had two elephants on either side flanking the Hierophant:

161

This is why I made the 16 Path = Hierophant = Elephant - Dumbo association. But there was a crucial piece of information missing from this card, and I never noticed it because this was the only Tarot deck that I studied before I became Christian and burned all my occult books and other materials, including my Tarot deck. And since I "never looked back" over all these years since then, I had no idea what I had missed. I didn't even notice it in my last post when I was writing about the Hierophant card. I only discovered it tonight while having dinner with Rose.

The traditional Hierophant card was much more Christian than anything Crowley could have tolerated because he was deeply scarred by his fundamentalist Christian upbringing. This card was traditionally known as the "Pope" or the "High Priest." This fits perfectly with the fact that it corresponds to Vav, the Sixth Hebrew letter which means "nail" or symbolically "to connect." It is the essence of the name "Levi" which means "to connect to me" and is the name of the archetypal Biblical priest who function was to "connect" the people of Israel to their God, or more generally, Christ as High Priest and mediator between heaven and earth. Here is what the traditional card looks like. Look at what is between his feet:
162
THE KEYS OF KINGDOM OF HEAVEN given to Peter by Christ in Matthew 16, corresponding to the 16th Path on the Tree of Life, the Hierophant card:
Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I only discovered this tonight, yet 21 years ago I had connected all these ideas on the morning I had the Dumbo Dream.

Now look again at where I discovered the Key (Maphte'ach) = 528 in Scripture:

Isaiah 22:22 And the key (528) of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

And recall again the meaning of the Key = 12 x 44 ==> DM (44) x HUA (12) = HIS BLOOD, and this brings us back to the foolishness of the Gospel, so aptly hidden under the name "Dumbo" -
1 Corinthians 1:19-24 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Are you looking for Dumbo?

I didn't know I was, but I have been ever since!

kathryn
11-29-2011, 11:01 PM
WOW! WOW! WOW! :woohoo:
Richard...what made you think to look at the other card?
Amazing! Made my day!
Thank you!

jce
11-29-2011, 11:07 PM
What an amazing account Richard. Simply amazing.

This thread was a fascinating read even though much of the discussion was unfamiliar territory for me, but the fundamental content rang true (Jesus' Blood=Open Door)! I also could relate to Len's view of what appears to be, in the short term, injustice on the part of God, to be in the long term "justifiable".

Long term vision vs short term vision answers perplexing questions about the God of the OT. If God is fully trusted, even in light of apparent biblical contradictions (not to mention our own contradictory behavior patterns), we will not be disappointed. Not every believer is a scholar, otherwise where would that leave the foolish things of God? On the outside looking in?

If every word of the bible is there as a result of Gods design, then there is a purpose for every event. Nothing is wasted and nothing is lost. History is filled with stories of those who were obedient to Christ from the cross forward. Men and women who surrendered personal gain in this world and ultimately their own lives for a promise that something up ahead is better. These martyrs gained confidence via long term vision nurtured by the Word of God. They certainly didn't drink the milkshake titled "Gospel of Prosperity".

Syncronicity eh? Looks like it's underlined in red so I probably even spelled it wrong. What term would you give to the science of rearranging letters of words in the bible to create other meaningful insights?

John

Richard Amiel McGough
11-29-2011, 11:13 PM
WOW! WOW! WOW! :woohoo:
Richard...what made you think to look at the other card?
Amazing! Made my day!
Thank you!
I was looking on the internet for an image of Crowley's Hierophant card and I saw them then, but the fact that the keys were on the card didn't register till I was chatting with Rose over dinner. I looked at her and said "You know what? There are the KEYS to the Kingdom of Heaven on the traditional Hierophant card!" I couldn't believe that I never noticed this before. But like I said, I quit looking at those cards and all that esoterica stuff way back in 1993 when I morphed into a fundamentalist Christian. I am simply stunned at what's unfolding now.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-29-2011, 11:35 PM
What an amazing account Richard. Simply amazing.

This thread was a fascinating read even though much of the discussion was unfamiliar territory for me, but the fundamental content rang true (Jesus' Blood=Open Door)! I also could relate to Len's view of what appears to be, in the short term, injustice on the part of God, to be in the long term "justifiable".

Hey there my friend,

It's great that you can see the value of my story. It's strange how it remains numinous and ever new to my mind and soul. I feel like it contains a depth of meaning I'll never fully fathom.

The connection between "Dumbo" and the foolishness of the Cross has always struck me as very profound. Especially since the Dumbo Dream was a highly intelligent coded message that required years of intense study to even begin to understand.

And there is an irony that the key was hidden in the so-called "occult" sciences of Tarot, Kabbalah, Gematria, etc. Perhaps that should give pause to Christian folks so quick to condemn and ban the study of such things.



Long term vision vs short term vision answers perplexing questions about the God of the OT. If God is fully trusted, even in light of apparent biblical contradictions (not to mention our own contradictory behavior patterns), we will not be disappointed. Not every believer is a scholar, otherwise where would that leave the foolish things of God? On the outside looking in?

Well, it's one thing to trust God, but it's quite another to trust humanly crafted dogmas about the "infallibility" of the Bible. That doctrine seems to me to overstep the bounds. What if the Bible is what it appears to be - namely, fallacious in many ways - yet still exactly as God intended? That puts a whole different twist on things. It makes the "apologists" look like blasphemers for attributing to God things that God never did.

I've always thought the highest view of Scripture was to accept the Bible as God gave it, warts and all.

It often looks like a test - are we willing to admit the Emperor has no clothes?

Do we love truth ( read God) enough to reject the Bible as the inerrant and infallible Word of God without rejecting the Bible as "God's Book?"

Truth is not an easy row to hoe.



If every word of the bible is there as a result of Gods design, then there is a purpose for every event. Nothing is wasted and nothing is lost. History is filled with stories of those who were obedient to Christ from the cross forward. Men and women who surrendered personal gain in this world and ultimately their own lives for a promise that something up ahead is better. These martyrs gained confidence via long term vision nurtured by the Word of God. They certainly didn't drink the milkshake titled "Gospel of Prosperity".

Well ... sure, it may be that every atom in the universe was placed there "by God." Or it may be that the universe is the very body of God, and that we should be using feminine metaphors for Deity. Why should we accept the traditions handed down to us? Why should our ancestors have such authority granted them? Perhaps they were wicked. Corrupt. We know they were quite ignorant. Why is belief contrary to evidence a virtue in Christianity but a vice in every other field?

As for the "Gospel of Prosperity" - I'm with you there brother-man.



Syncronicity eh? Looks like it's underlined in red so I probably even spelled it wrong. What term would you give to the science of rearranging letters of words in the bible to create other meaningful insights?

John
You forgot the h after the c - synchronicity. Just like synchronize only different. Based on chronos = time, chronology, etc.

If it's underlined red, you can right-click and see suggestions for spelling corrections.

Now as for making Bible-length anagrams ... I'd call that the Science of Confusion! Just kidding.

The problem with rearrange things by will (or computer) is that you can make up whatever you want, so what good is it?

Great chatting John!

Richard

debz
11-30-2011, 12:30 AM
WOW! WOW! WOW! :woohoo:
Richard...what made you think to look at the other card?
Amazing! Made my day!
Thank you!

Totally agree...all this just keeps getting better. Richard, you are very close...every piece of the jigsaw puzzle is coming into place to reveal that big picture. :specool:

debz
11-30-2011, 12:41 AM
And there is an irony that the key was hidden in the so-called "occult" sciences of Tarot, Kabbalah, Gematria, etc. Perhaps that should give pause to Christian folks so quick to condemn and ban the study of such things.


I believe it's not so much that these things were originally "evil" -- I believe these powers, mysteries, etc. were still created by God and meant for the Sons' use (His people), but because of the religiosity, dogmatism, fundamentalism that views everything that they can't control as evil, Christians have abandoned the very powers God intended for them to have all along. I also believe that the powers can be tapped into by anyone -- it's just all a matter of who we're serving and glorifying with them...ourselves, God, the enemy, etc.

lenvande
11-30-2011, 02:05 PM
Richard,

Happy anniversary to you and Rose, and what an interesting set of synchronicities that have resulted from the dream, your nuptial celebrations, these posts, and more.

Thanks for the formal introduction to Kathryn, and yes, when your reading list clears a bit, you should look into Jones. He's already looked into you.

The second installment of your dream story stunned me because I've been thinking about the origins of the English word "elephant" for the past couple of weeks. That's sort of an interesting synchronicity in itself. It struck me that the first two syllables of the word sound like a form of aleph. However, because my classics professor in college always said "Etymology by sound is not always sound etymology," I looked into it a bit more. I've found nothing conclusive really--just a lot of variant forms.

I did notice, however, that one of the Greek forms is elephas, which reminded me of Job's Eliphaz. According to Wikipedia, Eliphaz translates as "My God is strength" while, according to NETBible, an alternate translation is "My God is gold," which can be taken a couple of different ways, especially when you consider Esau's greedy son Eliphaz in the Book of Jasher. Then, I started to think that, even if the first two syllables in "elephant" had no direct relationship to aleph, perhaps the first syllable equated to El or God. Taking your information on hierophant, could it be that "elephant" can be translated as revealer of God? I don't have sufficient background in linguistics to know how close or far off the mark I am on this. Any and all input would be appreciated.

Len

Richard Amiel McGough
11-30-2011, 02:56 PM
Richard,

Happy anniversary to you and Rose, and what an interesting set of synchronicities that have resulted from the dream, your nuptial celebrations, these posts, and more.

Thanks for the formal introduction to Kathryn, and yes, when your reading list clears a bit, you should look into Jones. He's already looked into you.

The second installment of your dream story stunned me because I've been thinking about the origins of the English word "elephant" for the past couple of weeks. That's sort of an interesting synchronicity in itself. It struck me that the first two syllables of the word sound like a form of aleph. However, because my classics professor in college always said "Etymology by sound is not always sound etymology," I looked into it a bit more. I've found nothing conclusive really--just a lot of variant forms.

I did notice, however, that one of the Greek forms is elephas, which reminded me of Job's Eliphaz. According to Wikipedia, Eliphaz translates as "My God is strength" while, according to NETBible, an alternate translation is "My God is gold," which can be taken a couple of different ways, especially when you consider Esau's greedy son Eliphaz in the Book of Jasher. Then, I started to think that, even if the first two syllables in "elephant" had no direct relationship to aleph, perhaps the first syllable equated to El or God. Taking your information on hierophant, could it be that "elephant" can be translated as revealer of God? I don't have sufficient background in linguistics to know how close or far off the mark I am on this. Any and all input would be appreciated.

Len
Hey there Len,

What motivated you to investigate the etymology of elephant? That seems curious given that the only reason I posted the Dumbo Dream now (after 21 years!) was because of a synchronicity with RC Christian in another thread (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2560-Question-for-Richard-about-his-educational-background&p=37274#post37274) eleven days ago (11/19/2011).

I am inclined to think the etymology links to the Semitic root eleph meaning "ox" since the elephant is rather like a large ox. But I'll have to look into it more as time permits. And no matter what the actual etymology, the "sound" is what is important in dreams because dreams are based largely on puns (of which we see many in Scripture too). So the "elephant" as Eli Phantos (God revealer) is perfectly good dream language. And other symbolic elements come into play. For example, from the wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant):

Elephants are a symbol of wisdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom) in Asian cultures and are famed for their memory and intelligence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_cognition), where their intelligence level is thought to be equal to that of dolphins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphins)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#cite_note-ABCScience-11)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#cite_note-12)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#cite_note-DolphinGuide-13)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#cite_note-Friendsoftheelephant-14) and primates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primate).[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#cite_note-Hart-15)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#cite_note-Scott-16) Aristotle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle) once said the elephant was "the beast which passeth all others in wit and mind."[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#cite_note-17) The word "elephant" has its origins in the Greek ἐλέφας (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%90%CE%BB%CE%AD%CF%86%CE%B1%CF%82), meaning "ivory" or "elephant".[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#cite_note-COED-18)

Note the assertion that the etymology is based on Greek. That's very typical amongst scholars - they often over look obvious Semitic cognates. But they could be right in this case, I don't know yet.

It is interesting that elephants have the longest gestation period of any mammal - 22 months (nice to see that number make an appearance). Of course, I have no idea if this is "just a coincidence" but it does fit well with the theme of "birth" - passing through a bloody "door" - since YLD = 44 means "birth" and the first birth is in Genesis 4 where the root YLD first appears in the form TLD which is DLT (Dalet, the name of the fourth letter) spelled backwards.

Thanks for brainstorming with me on this Len. It's really helpful and stimulating.

Richard

Bob May
12-01-2011, 10:14 PM
Hi Richard and all. Great thread,

I printed it out and have been reading it at work the last few nights.
I could speak about it for a long time.
What I think you experienced was the Spiritual experience of Yesod. Vision of the Machinery of the Universe.

The Bible, Qabalah and the Tarot are one system.

I will throw in my 2 cents.
You had an impossible dream. It didn't stop speaking to you when you woke up. A spiritual experience (Daath, Knowledge) is the Foundation (Yesod) of going to the next level of understanding. So you keep getting more out of it as the years go on. This is the thought that led me to stack up the trees in this fashon. Yesod (Foundation) overlapping Daath (Knowledge) on the next Tree up.

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/3baptisms.jpg

But hey, we are ignoring the 2000 pound elephant in the room.
He had an "impossible dream.".. That he could fly. We know that can't happen, but it did.
Just as we know the bible cannot speak directly to us. But it did and through your dreams no less.

This is Don Quixote seeing windmills as giants. No one else saw that. This is also the Fool card.
Didn't McCartney write that song? Oh, and he was into Aliester Crowley too, I have heard. One of the Golden Dawn from England.
"Day after day, alone on a hill.
The man of a thousand voices keeping perfectly still."

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/983c5fac.gif

He sits on the 11th Path and the letter Aleph (or Alephant) is assigned to this card. Air, Spirit.

Also Dawm Bo can easily mean Blood covenant. The Bow in the cloud was a token to Noah that God would not destroy the earth with water ever again.
Daleth Mem. The door and water. Baptism. The flood of symbols that accompanied this Dream is the water Baptism. And it is the Door to another world. Yesod.

One thing you mentioned in this thread, Richard is how can we escape the prison of words using words.
We cannot. And you basically told what you did to bypass the words leading up to this experience.
You were practicing silent meditation.
As don Juan taught Carlos Castaneda stopping the internal dialog leads to "Stopping the World."
So you were experiencing another world. Where numbers and circumstances and Scripture speak directly to us. That is an abyss. Things work differently on one side than the other.

You were seeing, and still are, that the blood which is life which was sprinkled in the Garden has brought the world to life.
Lu 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

This is the Fool on the hill walking off the cliff, paying no heed to this world. This 11th Path is directly above that Abyss.
Below that abyss words keep everything neat and tidy and defined.
Above that abyss, not so much.

Cool dreams. A lot there.

Bob

Bob May
12-02-2011, 04:19 AM
IMO, and from the pictures I've seen of the ruins of the temple, there are still some "stones left on others," and He said that everystone would be thrown down. Also, that all these things would happen within one generation, but I don't believe it meant within that generation. I know you have other threads on eschatology, so I won't get into it more here. However, since this is a "synchronicity" thread, if you read the rest of what I wrote on the "555" synchronicity, it could reveal to you more of how I see things. For example, you said it appears as if I am "looking backward," but to me, I am looking forward to a restoration of this realm--a restoration of the heaven & earth connection.


Hi Deb, Richard and all,

Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The generations of Jesus are our regeneration. Levels of awareness we go through as we are nourished.
This is the woman in revelations who the flood from the dragon almost took away but the Earth helped the woman and swallowed the flood. The babe was caught up to heaven and the woman was nourished in the wilderness for 42 months. The wilderness is where we learn to build the tabernacles in ourselves and where we are nourished with manna (What is it?). Jesus went away so that he could send the Spirit. The babe is caught up to heaven and the woman/Us is nourished.
She has 12 stars in her crown for the twelve tribes.
http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/03.gif

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/3baptisms.jpg


Mt 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
1+4=5, so the three 14's can be looked at as 555. And the generations from Abraham to Christ as the Psalms of ascent.

You will see on the left of the chart the three fourteens = 42. We are nourished in the wilderness.
The three fourteens are three fives. That is fifteen. 42 is the midst of the week (seven means covenant) or Essence of the covenant.
A time, times and half a time.
When we have an experience like Richard's sometimes we have to back off and get our feet back on the ground. That is the earth swallowing the flood. The synchronicities become too much. A flood.


As for the Babylon, confusion thing, I am beginning to see that these things are all one revelation.
We can get lost in the details which we will never be able to find all of the connnections to.
But if we back up every once in a while and see that there is an undeniable elephant in the room we know we are on the right track.

Bob

Richard Amiel McGough
12-02-2011, 01:34 PM
Hi Richard and all. Great thread,

I printed it out and have been reading it at work the last few nights.
I could speak about it for a long time.
What I think you experienced was the Spiritual experience of Yesod. Vision of the Machinery of the Universe.

The Bible, Qabalah and the Tarot are one system.

Hey there Bob,

And I could listen for a long time. During our morning walk yesterday, Rose and I talked for about half an hour about the Tree of Life and how it serves as a categorical system that unites the Bible, Kabbalah, Tarot, and Astrology.

Now I come here and see that you wrote the very thing we spent some time discussing. I just love these synchronicities!




I will throw in my 2 cents.

You had an impossible dream. It didn't stop speaking to you when you woke up. A spiritual experience (Daath, Knowledge) is the Foundation (Yesod) of going to the next level of understanding. So you keep getting more out of it as the years go on. This is the thought that led me to stack up the trees in this fashon. Yesod (Foundation) overlapping Daath (Knowledge) on the next Tree up.

But hey, we are ignoring the 2000 pound elephant in the room.
He had an "impossible dream.".. That he could fly. We know that can't happen, but it did.
Just as we know the bible cannot speak directly to us. But it did and through your dreams no less.

This is Don Quixote seeing windmills as giants. No one else saw that. This is also the Fool card.
Didn't McCartney write that song? Oh, and he was into Aliester Crowley too, I have heard. One of the Golden Dawn from England.
"Day after day, alone on a hill.
The man of a thousand voices keeping perfectly still."

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/983c5fac.gif

He sits on the 11th Path and the letter Aleph (or Alephant) is assigned to this card. Air, Spirit.

Also Dawm Bo can easily mean Blood covenant. The Bow in the cloud was a token to Noah that God would not destroy the earth with water ever again.
Daleth Mem. The door and water. Baptism. The flood of symbols that accompanied this Dream is the water Baptism. And it is the Door to another world. Yesod.

One thing you mentioned in this thread, Richard is how can we escape the prison of words using words.
We cannot. And you basically told what you did to bypass the words leading up to this experience.
You were practicing silent meditation.
As don Juan taught Carlos Castaneda stopping the internal dialog leads to "Stopping the World."
So you were experiencing another world. Where numbers and circumstances and Scripture speak directly to us. That is an abyss. Things work differently on one side than the other.

You were seeing, and still are, that the blood which is life which was sprinkled in the Garden has brought the world to life.
Lu 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

This is the Fool on the hill walking off the cliff, paying no heed to this world. This 11th Path is directly above that Abyss.
Below that abyss words keep everything neat and tidy and defined.
Above that abyss, not so much.

Cool dreams. A lot there.

Bob
Those are some great insights. I watched the Dumbo movie about a year after the Dumbo Dream and felt an uncanny connection with my personal life story.

The movie begins with the theme of birth and individuation. The little Dumbo was born with very big ears. He got teased a lot and his mother got enraged so she was taken away in a cage labelled "Mad Elephant." Dumbo was left alone in the circus, no mother or father. It's odd their was not father in the movie. Anyway, I was separated from my mother when I was an infant and I grew up with my father. He passed away when I was fourteen and I was pretty much on my own from then on.

It was the 70s and the streets were filled with pot and LSD which I consumed with much enthusiasm. I basically "fell into a bucket" of psychedelic drugs. This brings us to the scene when Dumbo falls into a bucket of alcohol and has a vivid hallucinogenic experience - seeing Pink Elephants on Parade. I find it fascinating that that clip has been remixed many times and called an "LSD trip." Indeed, searching YouTube for Dumbo LSD brings up nearly two million pages (http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=dumbo+lsd&pbx=1&oq=dumbo+lsd&aq=f&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=3050277l3052569l2l3052762l9l7l0l0l0l0l798l2 948l5-4.1l5l0&fp=1&biw=1456&bih=836&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&cad=b). I just watched the clip and can attest that it is the most vivid and accurate portrayal of an LSD inspired fantasy trip I have ever seen. Here is where the scene starts, with Dumbo blowing a big bubble after falling in the bucket of "alcohol" -


http://youtu.be/RJv2Mugm2RI

Dumbo learned to fly while tripping on a mind altering substance. But when he woke up from his "dream" and found himself high in a tree he had no idea how he got there. Then the singing "crows" convinced his mouse friend to give him a "magic feather" so he would have sufficient faith to fly. Feather/Faith. This parallels my encounter with the esoteric writings of Crowley without which I may never have understood anything in the Dumbo Dream.

And then the mouse whispers in the ear of the Circus Ringmaster while he was sleeping - Dumbo, Dumbo, DUMBO! And the Ringmaster awakes shouting DUMBO!

There is much more to say, but I'm going to watch the whole movie again first, with new eyes. It is available in multiple parts on YouTube. Here is part 1:


http://youtu.be/poG4n13RK5s

Richard

Bob May
12-02-2011, 01:56 PM
Hi Richard,

Richard>> "There is much more to say, but I'm going to watch the whole movie again first, with new eyes. It is available in multiple parts on YouTube. Here is part 1:"

I'll take a look at it. I had forgotten almost all of the details you mentioned it has been so long since I saw it.
I began watching the Man of La Mancha the other night with my son on Netflix. We are about halfway through. That movie had a similar importance to me that Dumbo had for you.
Great movie!! I actually went and saw the stage play twice.
Cervantes must have had some knowlege of Qabalah.

You should watch it if you can find the time. It is a great romance as well as having some deeper angles to it.

Bob

Richard Amiel McGough
12-02-2011, 02:25 PM
Hi Richard,

Richard>> "There is much more to say, but I'm going to watch the whole movie again first, with new eyes. It is available in multiple parts on YouTube. Here is part 1:"

I'll take a look at it. I had forgotten almost all of the details you mentioned it has been so long since I saw it.
I began watching the Man of La Mancha the other night with my son on Netflix. We are about halfway through. That movie had a similar importance to me that Dumbo had for you.
Great movie!! I actually went and saw the stage play twice.
Cervantes must have had some knowlege of Qabalah.

You should watch it if you can find the time. It is a great romance as well as having some deeper angles to it.

Bob
I've got Netflix - I just added it to my instant queue. I take it you are talking about the film made in 1972 with Peter O'Toole? Rose and I plan on watching it this evening. I'll keep my Qabbalistic eye open. I read Don Quixote many years ago and was not much impressed. Probably didn't have the requisite background knowledge to appreciate it.

lenvande
12-02-2011, 10:23 PM
Hey there Len,

What motivated you to investigate the etymology of elephant? That seems curious given that the only reason I posted the Dumbo Dream now (after 21 years!) was because of a synchronicity with RC Christian in another thread (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2560-Question-for-Richard-about-his-educational-background&p=37274#post37274) eleven days ago (11/19/2011).

I am inclined to think the etymology links to the Semitic root eleph meaning "ox" since the elephant is rather like a large ox. But I'll have to look into it more as time permits. And no matter what the actual etymology, the "sound" is what is important in dreams because dreams are based largely on puns (of which we see many in Scripture too). So the "elephant" as Eli Phantos (God revealer) is perfectly good dream language. And other symbolic elements come into play. For example, from the wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant):

Elephants are a symbol of wisdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom) in Asian cultures and are famed for their memory and intelligence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_cognition), where their intelligence level is thought to be equal to that of dolphins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphins)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#cite_note-ABCScience-11)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#cite_note-12)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#cite_note-DolphinGuide-13)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#cite_note-Friendsoftheelephant-14) and primates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primate).[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#cite_note-Hart-15)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#cite_note-Scott-16) Aristotle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle) once said the elephant was "the beast which passeth all others in wit and mind."[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#cite_note-17) The word "elephant" has its origins in the Greek ἐλέφας (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%90%CE%BB%CE%AD%CF%86%CE%B1%CF%82), meaning "ivory" or "elephant".[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#cite_note-COED-18)

Note the assertion that the etymology is based on Greek. That's very typical amongst scholars - they often over look obvious Semitic cognates. But they could be right in this case, I don't know yet.

It is interesting that elephants have the longest gestation period of any mammal - 22 months (nice to see that number make an appearance). Of course, I have no idea if this is "just a coincidence" but it does fit well with the theme of "birth" - passing through a bloody "door" - since YLD = 44 means "birth" and the first birth is in Genesis 4 where the root YLD first appears in the form TLD which is DLT (Dalet, the name of the fourth letter) spelled backwards.

Thanks for brainstorming with me on this Len. It's really helpful and stimulating.

Richard

Richard,

I haven't been able to write anything for a few days but am still current on the thread. Work, marriage, and children must come first.

This community has really come together to develop some amazing things here. I don't have much more to add but wanted to answer your question about the origin of my interest in the etymology of "elephant." Honestly, I don't know what prompted me to fixate on it. It just seemed to pop into my head a couple weeks ago, and I couldn't let it go.

It really is interesting that the numeric value of YLD (44) corresponds to the value of DM (44). Also, providing that you don't go by a psuedonym, the name Richard Amiel McGough reduces to 4 using Pythagorean numerology. Likewise, if you account for double-number meanings, your name reduces to the number 13. Interestingly, both 4 and 13 make up the simple numeric values of Dalet and Mem. Moreover, reduce all the numeric values of your name by vowels and consonants, and you get the double-numbers 16 and 15. You add these to the total sum of vowels and consonants together at its double-number level, and you get 44.

Essentially, the math, along with its personality descriptions and alphabetic values, looks like this:

Self-Motivation (V): 16
Self-Identity (C): 15
Self-Expression (V+C): 13

Total: 44

Interesting, isn't it?

Len

Richard Amiel McGough
12-02-2011, 10:57 PM
Richard,

I haven't been able to write anything for a few days but am still current on the thread. Work, marriage, and children must come first.

This community has really come together to develop some amazing things here. I don't have much more to add but wanted to answer your question about the origin of my interest in the etymology of "elephant." Honestly, I don't know what prompted me to fixate on it. It just seemed to pop into my head a couple weeks ago, and I couldn't let it go.

Something else that is interesting about the numeric value of YLD (44) is that it corresponds to the value of DM (44), including the sofit value of the final Mem. Also, providing that you don't go by a psuedonym, the name Richard Amiel McGough reduces to 4 using Pythagorean numerology. Likewise, if you account for double-number meanings, your name reduces to the number 13. Both 4 and 13 make up the simple numeric values of Dalet and Mem. Reduce all the numeric values of your name by vowels and consonants, and you get the double-numbers 16 and 15. You add these to the total sum of vowels and consonants together at its double-number level, and you get 44.

Essentially, the math, along with its personality descriptions and alphabetic values, looks like this:

Self-Motivation (V): 16
Self-Identity (C): 15
Self-Expression (V+C): 13

Total: 44

Interesting, isn't it?

Len
Hey there Len,

It just popped into your head and "stuck there" about two weeks ago, just around the time this whole synchronous adventure centering on an "elephant" started getting hot? Yeah, that's pretty curious! I think it's great. :winking0071:

The one thing about my personal name that strikes me a most obvious is that I went by the name "Dick" until about age fifteen when I entered high school and took advantage of the change to also change my name to Richard since "Dick" had become a common insult and I was sick of it. So the initials "DM" were my initials for about the first fifteen years of my life.

Also, my home address throughout my childhood, until I was about 16, was 344, and 1244 ==> (1+2)44 ==> 344. So there were lots of little "echoes" that I picked up from the Dumbo Dream.

As for the final value of Mem - that is 600. Did you mean "ordinal" value? That is 13. And yes, the ordinal values of the Hebrew letters reduce to the values of the corresponding letters on each row of this table. E.g. the 4th row has Dalet, Mem, Tav. They have ordinal values of 4, 13, 22 which each sum to 4. The same thing happens on every row.

http://biblewheel.com/images/FullAlphabetTable.gif

I've never given any attention to Pythagorean Numerology. And I personally do not think there is any meaning in English Gematria. It's been discussed a lot on this forum because there are a lot of enthusiasts out there, but I've never seen any coherence like the Biblical Holographs, so I have no reason to think there is any design in it. That's the real challenge with this kind of study - how do we discern between chance and design?

But there may be patterns there - I don't know since I have not looked. The sum coming to 44 is intriguing, but I don't really have much interest in analyzing my own name. It seems just a little to "self-involved." I'm looking for patterns in the universal mind we all share ... and live within.

The key themes of the Dumbo Dream seems to be birth into a higher awareness - birth into the "Kingdom of God" or perhaps Disney's "Magical Kingdom?" I like that! He was a great man. Take a look at this video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TColKKBSJ1I

And this is interesting. I just found out that Disney released a 70th Anniversary HD digital remastering of Dumbo movie which was made in 1941:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ4-jZ-kgwo

Great chatting Len!

Richard

lenvande
12-03-2011, 09:49 AM
Hey there Len,

It just popped into your head and "stuck there" about two weeks ago, just around the time this whole synchronous adventure centering on an "elephant" started getting hot? Yeah, that's pretty curious! I think it's great. :winking0071:

The one thing about my personal name that strikes me a most obvious is that I went by the name "Dick" until about age fifteen when I entered high school and took advantage of the change to also change my name to Richard since "Dick" had become a common insult and I was sick of it. So the initials "DM" were my initials for about the first fifteen years of my life.

Also, my home address throughout my childhood, until I was about 16, was 344, and 1244 ==> (1+2)44 ==> 344. So there were lots of little "echoes" that I picked up from the Dumbo Dream.

As for the final value of Mem - that is 600. Did you mean "ordinal" value? That is 13. And yes, the ordinal values of the Hebrew letters reduce to the values of the corresponding letters on each row of this table. E.g. the 4th row has Dalet, Mem, Tav. They have ordinal values of 4, 13, 22 which each sum to 4. The same thing happens on every row.

http://biblewheel.com/images/FullAlphabetTable.gif

I've never given any attention to Pythagorean Numerology. And I personally do not think there is any meaning in English Gematria. It's been discussed a lot on this forum because there are a lot of enthusiasts out there, but I've never seen any coherence like the Biblical Holographs, so I have no reason to think there is any design in it. That's the real challenge with this kind of study - how do we discern between chance and design?

But there may be patterns there - I don't know since I have not looked. The sum coming to 44 is intriguing, but I don't really have much interest in analyzing my own name. It seems just a little to "self-involved." I'm looking for patterns in the universal mind we all share ... and live within.

The key themes of the Dumbo Dream seems to be birth into a higher awareness - birth into the "Kingdom of God" or perhaps Disney's "Magical Kingdom?" I like that! He was a great man. Take a look at this video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TColKKBSJ1I

And this is interesting. I just found out that Disney released a 70th Anniversary HD digital remastering of Dumbo movie which was made in 1941:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ4-jZ-kgwo

Great chatting Len!

Richard

Richard,

Thank you for pointing out the error. No, I didn't mean the ordinal value. I confused the numerical value with the sofit. I'm still gaining proficiency with the gematria system. However, interestingly enough, both numerical values add up to 44 (D=4, M=40).

I was into numerology for a few years but then pretty much abandoned the practice despite a lot of anecdotal evidence supporting it. I eventually came to see that the numeric values would change between different alphabetic systems and, therefore, not be consistent. Your name is the first one I've done in the last few years out of curiosity.

Have you considered the implications behind Numbers 31 reducing to two 4's (or 4+3+1=4+4)?

Len

kathryn
12-03-2011, 10:08 AM
Richard:But there may be patterns there - I don't know since I have not looked. The sum coming to 44 is intriguing, but I don't really have much interest in analyzing my own name. It seems just a little to "self-involved." I'm looking for patterns in the universal mind we all share ... and live within.


Good morning All! Haven't had a chance to check in much the past few days....but really exciting parallels with the elephant/Dumbo, etc!
Just wanted to give a quick response to your comment above Richard. If we are all "one" ....then the details concerning your name would just as intimately concern each of us as well. Of course I realize that you would have to come to the conclusion that we are one...but regardless...just wanted to point that out. I personally believe we are One...and each of us part of the hologram. You is me and me is you:-) :p

lenvande
12-03-2011, 11:19 AM
Richard,

Thank you for pointing out the error. No, I didn't mean the ordinal value. I confused the numerical value with the sofit. I'm still gaining proficiency with the gematria system. However, interestingly enough, both numerical values add up to 44 (D=4, M=40).

I was into numerology for a few years but then pretty much abandoned the practice despite a lot of anecdotal evidence supporting it. I eventually came to see that the numeric values would change between different alphabetic systems and, therefore, not be consistent. Your name is the first one I've done in the last few years out of curiosity.

Have you considered the implications behind Numbers 31 reducing to two 4's (or 4+3+1=4+4)?

Len

Also, 4+31 could translate to something like Door of the Offspring or Lamb, right?

Richard Amiel McGough
12-03-2011, 12:35 PM
Richard,

Thank you for pointing out the error. No, I didn't mean the ordinal value. I confused the numerical value with the sofit. I'm still gaining proficiency with the gematria system. However, interestingly enough, both numerical values add up to 44 (D=4, M=40).

I was into numerology for a few years but then pretty much abandoned the practice despite a lot of anecdotal evidence supporting it. I eventually came to see that the numeric values would change between different alphabetic systems and, therefore, not be consistent. Your name is the first one I've done in the last few years out of curiosity.

Have you considered the implications behind Numbers 31 reducing to two 4's (or 4+3+1=4+4)?

Len
Hey there Len,

Yes, the fact that D = and M = 40 is very significant. That struck me the morning of the dream because I didn't know that there was a Hebrew word DM = 44 and so the connection with "DuMbo" and 12 x 44 made it feel like I was getting information from "somewhere else." It is curious that in the Dumbo movie, Timothy Mouse talks into the ear of the Ringmaster while he is sleeping, and says this

"I am the voice of your unconscious mind. Your inspiration! Now concentrate! Remember? A pyramid of elephants is standing in the ring. Waiting for a climax! You are now getting that climax! (How's the reception? Coming through OK? Good!) Suddenly from the sidelines comes your climax. Galloping across the arena, he jumps from a springboard, to a platform at the very pinnacle of your pyramid and waves a flag for a glorious finish! And who is your climax? The little elephant with the big ears. The worlds mightiest midget mastodon. DUMBO!"
Timothy Mouse and the Ringmaster then alternately say "Dumbo" three times, and the Ringmaster wakes up shouting "I got it! I got it!".


The "pyramid of pachyderms" plays off the same theme of impossibility of Dumbo, the flying elephant. It also links directly to the triangular number that was given in the dream:

12 x 44 = 528 = T(32) where T(n) is the nth triangular number.

And just a couple days ago, I finally realized a similar connection with the dream in which a Master wanted to play me a game of pool for 2 or three bucks, and who showed me a book in which a beginner won the crown in 15 moves. Why the number 15? Well, it's the number of balls in a standard game of billiards, and those balls are arranged in a "pyramid" - that is, a triangle:

178

So we have three elements that point to "triangles" - the numbers 528 =T(32) and 15 = T(5) which were given in closely related dreams, and the pyramid of pachyderms in the Dumbo movie. Note also that the master wanted to play for "2 or 3" bucks and 2 + 3 = 5 and 32 = 25. I find all these relations very intriguing.

One anomaly is the form and number of elephants in the pyramid of pachyderms. There were seven total (which is not a triangular number). But the top 6 did form a triangle 6 = T(3) on top of the bottom one which was standing on a ball - Disney was making this as unbelievable as possible!

179


And here is Dumbo with a crown, which was mentioned in my dream:

180

Richard Amiel McGough
12-03-2011, 12:40 PM
Richard:But there may be patterns there - I don't know since I have not looked. The sum coming to 44 is intriguing, but I don't really have much interest in analyzing my own name. It seems just a little to "self-involved." I'm looking for patterns in the universal mind we all share ... and live within.


Good morning All! Haven't had a chance to check in much the past few days....but really exciting parallels with the elephant/Dumbo, etc!
Just wanted to give a quick response to your comment above Richard. If we are all "one" ....then the details concerning your name would just as intimately concern each of us as well. Of course I realize that you would have to come to the conclusion that we are one...but regardless...just wanted to point that out. I personally believe we are One...and each of us part of the hologram. You is me and me is you:-) :p
Wow! I didn't know you knew that!

Each one of "us" is just the universe doing what it's doing in the place where "we" happen to be!

Did you watch the Alan Watts video I posted called The Myth of Myself? (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2642-The-Myth-of-Myself-by-Alan-Watts). He is a master of expressing the unity of all.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-03-2011, 12:44 PM
Have you considered the implications behind Numbers 31 reducing to two 4's (or 4+3+1=4+4)?

No, I don't see any clear connection. What do you see?

Bob May
12-03-2011, 06:27 PM
Hi Richard and all,


Hey there Len,

And just a couple days ago, I finally realized a similar connection with the dream in which a Master wanted to play me a game of pool for 2 or three bucks, and who showed me a book in which a beginner won the crown in 15 moves. Why the number 15? Well, it's the number of balls in a standard game of billiards, and those balls are arranged in a "pyramid" - that is, a triangle:

One anomaly is the form and number of elephants in the pyramid of pachyderms. There were seven total (which is not a triangular number). But the top 6 did form a triangle 6 = T(3) on top of the bottom one which was standing on a ball - Disney was making this as unbelievable as possible!



I don't know if you cosciously made the connection or not. Buit the Master is the Ring Master. It is you, as is the mouse, your subconscious mind speaking to you in a dream.
You are the Ring Master. Because you call all the shots in what you surround yourself. Your ring. (Or pool table.)
We all do that. That is because God, Spirit, speaks to us using our sunconscious mind (the mouse, still small voice) using both our own subconscious symbols or personal symbols and Univesal symbols also.

God/Spirit permeates all levels of Manifestation and communicates to us through each.

Ps 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Ps 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Ps 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

Someone on this thread, I believe was speaking about not knowing whether we were going up or down.
Something along those lines.
This reminds me of something I have experience several times and relates to this whole idea of Symbols Language and Speaking.
On the way down or in or involution, however you understand it we lost our ability to communicate with each other. Tower of Babel.
On the way back, it is the 14 generations from David to captivity of Babylon and then from captivity in Babylon to Christ. It is also the sword of the Word that divides soul from spirit.

There is a point where language breaks down and has no meaning at all. I've experienced it in various ways. A total breakdown when you cannot speak because no words can say what you mean and the voices of people around you are nothing more than animal sounds.
When this first happened to me I noticed that my mind immediately began to rebuilds a language just for me.
We build our Ring, our surrounding world view with symbols and words. We only allow those concepts and ideas symbolised by those words to enter that Ring that we are willing to believe are true.
We are the Ring Masters of our own world. In that respect we are made in the image of the Elohim. We Create because we were created in the image of the Creator. And He used the Word "Let there be... and there was."
Jesus said,
Lu 18:15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
Lu 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Lu 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

It is interesting that the word infant is used here.
The term infant is derived from the Latin word infans, meaning "unable to speak" or "speechless." It is typically applied to children between the ages of 1 month and 12 months;

It is also interesting that the guest at the wedding feast that had no wedding garment, when asked how he got in, It says he was "speechless".
That doesn't mean he didn't answer,... that WAS the answer.... That is how he got in.
Richard was practicing silent meditation and Tarot and Qabalah when he had this dream.

Speaking and silence are keys here to very deep levels of ourselves and Reality. Symbols are just pictoral words. We put clothes on Reality or we strip the clothes off reality. Language, words, letters, numbers and symbols are veils that both conceal and reveal what is going on.

Also, Richard, think prison and escape when watching Man of La Mancha.
Also look at the Stairway into the dungeon and the Great Enchanter, the Battle of the Mirrors and his turning the kitchen maid/whore into Dulcinea.

Bob

Richard Amiel McGough
12-03-2011, 08:22 PM
Hi Richard and all,

I don't know if you cosciously made the connection or not. Buit the Master is the Ring Master. It is you, as is the mouse, your subconscious mind speaking to you in a dream.
You are the Ring Master. Because you call all the shots in what you surround yourself. Your ring. (Or pool table.)
We all do that. That is because God, Spirit, speaks to us using our sunconscious mind (the mouse, still small voice) using both our own subconscious symbols or personal symbols and Univesal symbols also.

God/Spirit permeates all levels of Manifestation and communicates to us through each.

Great insights, my friend. Yes, I've been seeing the psychological (in the full sense of that word) implications of the Dumbo Dream. The "ring" master is particular apropriate in the context of the discovery of the Wheel.

And the pool table with it's six pockets fits well with the "cosmos" (Greek) = 600 = sheysh (six, Hebrew). Six days of creation, six directions, etc.

I just found it quite striking that the Dumbo movie contains a scene where the word Dumbo is revealed in the ear of the dreaming Ring Master.

It's quite a "coincidence."



There is a point where language breaks down and has no meaning at all. I've experienced it in various ways. A total breakdown when you cannot speak because no words can say what you mean and the voices of people around you are nothing more than animal sounds.
When this first happened to me I noticed that my mind immediately began to rebuilds a language just for me.
We build our Ring, our surrounding world view with symbols and words. We only allow those concepts and ideas symbolised by those words to enter that Ring that we are willing to believe are true.
We are the Ring Masters of our own world. In that respect we are made in the image of the Elohim. We Create because we were created in the image of the Creator. And He used the Word "Let there be... and there was."

And that goes back to the Bible Wheel - a ring of letters/symbols organizing the Bibilcal cosmos of books.



Jesus said,
Lu 18:15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
Lu 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Lu 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

It is interesting that the word infant is used here.
The term infant is derived from the Latin word infans, meaning "unable to speak" or "speechless." It is typically applied to children between the ages of 1 month and 12 months;

It is also interesting that the guest at the wedding feast that had no wedding garment, when asked how he got in, It says he was "speechless".
That doesn't mean he didn't answer,... that WAS the answer.... That is how he got in.
Richard was practicing silent meditation and Tarot and Qabalah when he had this dream.

I learned another etymology today! Thanks, I didn't know infant meant "can't speak."

The right brain is most silent. It doesn't have words to express itself. Just images and feelings.



Also, Richard, think prison and escape when watching Man of La Mancha.
Also look at the Stairway into the dungeon and the Great Enchanter, the Battle of the Mirrors and his turning the kitchen maid/whore into Dulcinea.

Bob
I've got the movie on my instant queue. Now I just need to find some time to watch it.

Thanks for brainstorming with me on this. I really appreciate it.

Bob May
12-04-2011, 07:21 AM
Hi Richard and all,

What is is called when your dream is waking me up in the wee hours???

Ok I got some more.
At one level you/we are the ring master. You/we orchestrate all that goes on in the ring. (Your bubble of perception.) Your universe.

At another level, Jesus is the ring master.

Mt 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

So we have a ring master and a master pool player.
The master pool player wants to play you for 2 or 3 "bucks."

So 2:9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: ( a hart is a male deer) behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, showing himself through the lattice.

So you are and have been looking for Dumbo.
I am and have been looking for a young Deer.
Your dream is my experience. Very alike.
(Also at one point I also burned all of my books. Thousands of dollars worth. But that is another story.)

We are talking Camoflage here. That which blends into the surroundings. A male deer is a master at camoflage. Their antlers look like branches. They can be standing very close and you won't even see them.

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/JacobsLadder.jpg

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/OverlappingTrees.jpg

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/Overlappingworlds.jpg

In the Qabalah there are four worlds. Divine, Creative, Formative and Making.
The "Master" invited you to take it as far as you want to go.
2 or three "bucks." Christ showing himself through the lattice.
If there are four worlds, there are three "overlaps" connecting those four worlds.
When your dream world and your physical world (formative and making) overlapped and you began seeing they are interconnected you were living in the first Vesica.
The Universe is speaking to us.

When you realized who it is that is speaking to you through that lattice/Universe, you were living in the second Vesica. Remember the Vesica is a symbol of Birth, the Vagina, the Fish.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

The first Vesica is the baptism of water, the "Flood." And it is living in two worlds at once.

The second Vesica is the baptism of air. Pentecost which came with a rushing, mighty Wind and was accompanied by "Signs in the Heaven and wonders in the Earth". Again the idea of living in two worlds at once. Three now actually, because Christ and Spirit permeates the entire lattice from top to bottom throuout. The entire "shooting match" (or Pool Game), or lattice or "robe of Christ" is all of manifestation. It is the fish coming out of water with the coin in it's mouth.

The third Vesica is the Baptism of Fire which has already been kindled.

Buck=Chist revealing himself=Vesica=overlapping worlds=birth (moving from one environment into another)= starting all over learning to speak (learning to be a Ring Master in your new ring.)
But there is really only one Master (Rabbi) and we are his disciples. And he is also the Baptizer.

Bob

debz
12-04-2011, 11:47 AM
Richard, Bob has a lot of insight there. I agree with his interpretations, for what it's worth. :)

Richard Amiel McGough
12-04-2011, 11:52 AM
Richard, Bob has a lot of insight there. I agree with his interpretations, for what it's worth. :)
That's good to know Deb. I agree.

It's great to toss out a word of agreement once in a while since forum conversations tend to focus on disagreements.

I'm gonna see if I can set up some buttons like "I agree" or "Like" for individual posts. The feedback might be helpful for folks.

debz
12-04-2011, 12:23 PM
That's good to know Deb. I agree.

It's great to toss out a word of agreement once in a while since forum conversations tend to focus on disagreements.

I'm gonna see if I can set up some buttons like "I agree" or "Like" for individual posts. The feedback might be helpful for folks.

That's a REALLY good idea...and time saving, too :)

Richard Amiel McGough
12-04-2011, 02:13 PM
Hi Richard and all,

What is is called when your dream is waking me up in the wee hours???

I call it wonderful!

It's nice to have someone to talk to who can relate.


Ok I got some more.
At one level you/we are the ring master. You/we orchestrate all that goes on in the ring. (Your bubble of perception.) Your universe.

At another level, Jesus is the ring master.

Mt 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

So we have a ring master and a master pool player.
The master pool player wants to play you for 2 or 3 "bucks."

So 2:9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: ( a hart is a male deer) behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, showing himself through the lattice.

So you are and have been looking for Dumbo.
I am and have been looking for a young Deer.
Your dream is my experience. Very alike.
(Also at one point I also burned all of my books. Thousands of dollars worth. But that is another story.)

We are talking Camoflage here. That which blends into the surroundings. A male deer is a master at camoflage. Their antlers look like branches. They can be standing very close and you won't even see them.

I'm still wondering about the Master and Ringmaster symbols because on the one hand, they feel like an "other" and on the other hand they feel like an aspect of myself. I don't identify with the ringmaster in the Dumbo movie at all, but he is the one who was told "Dumbo" in his ear while sleeping. He's the one who imprisoned Dumbo's mom, and his proud pyramid of pachyderms caused his tent to fall down upon his head (with a little help from Dumbo tripping over his ears, of course).

The "master" who wanted to play pool did seem somewhat "exalted" or "in the know." It makes some sense for him to represent my subconscious.

The woman with black hair and the red sweater seems most obviously aligned with my anima. So the three could be aspects of my own soul, like the shadow, the ego, and the anima. Or maybe all mixed up and overlapping - that's the thing about dream images. They overlap a lot.

I've wondered about the "bucks" - if it could be a pun. It hasn't really revealed itself to me yet. But the pool table with it's six pockets echoes whole the cosmos centered on Tipharet (Sixth Sephirah).



http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/Overlappingworlds.jpg

In the Qabalah there are four worlds. Divine, Creative, Formative and Making.
The "Master" invited you to take it as far as you want to go.
2 or three "bucks." Christ showing himself through the lattice.
If there are four worlds, there are three "overlaps" connecting those four worlds.
When your dream world and your physical world (formative and making) overlapped and you began seeing they are interconnected you were living in the first Vesica.
The Universe is speaking to us.

When you realized who it is that is speaking to you through that lattice/Universe, you were living in the second Vesica. Remember the Vesica is a symbol of Birth, the Vagina, the Fish.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

The first Vesica is the baptism of water, the "Flood." And it is living in two worlds at once.

The second Vesica is the baptism of air. Pentecost which came with a rushing, mighty Wind and was accompanied by "Signs in the Heaven and wonders in the Earth". Again the idea of living in two worlds at once. Three now actually, because Christ and Spirit permeates the entire lattice from top to bottom throuout. The entire "shooting match" (or Pool Game), or lattice or "robe of Christ" is all of manifestation. It is the fish coming out of water with the coin in it's mouth.

The third Vesica is the Baptism of Fire which has already been kindled.

Buck=Chist revealing himself=Vesica=overlapping worlds=birth (moving from one environment into another)= starting all over learning to speak (learning to be a Ring Master in your new ring.)
But there is really only one Master (Rabbi) and we are his disciples. And he is also the Baptizer.

Bob
I can see a lot of potential in those insights, but they go beyond my experience and so seem only as abstractions to me right now. But thanks for sharing them. I get the impression that you have had experiences that seem to match these three baptisms. Is that correct?

Thanks for all the insights. I really love brainstorming with you on these themes.

Richard

kathryn
12-05-2011, 12:04 PM
Hello Len! We finally meet face to face:yo: (and eye to eye :))

Great points!!

lenvande
12-05-2011, 12:24 PM
Also, 4+31 could translate to something like Door of the Offspring or Lamb, right?

Richard,

Isn't Numbers 31 full of Alephs? I count 30 instances of the word "thousand/s." Are there any Alephants blending in behind the foregrounded lattice of Numbers 31? You and Bob seem to be best equipped to handle such a question. I don't have sufficient skills with Hebrew or gematria to know for sure if anything is truly there. I'm largely relying on intuition.

Also, just like we were observing that DawMBO reduced to 4-13-2-1 or 4-4-2-1, the reverse of the numbers presented to you in the dream, the fact that Numbers 31 (4-31 or 4-4) seems to follow a similar pattern caused me to be curious. Likewise, the fact that 4-31 could be interpreted as Door of the Offspring or Lamb seems to suggest some correlation to the theme of birth into this life or the next.

Len

kathryn
12-05-2011, 01:15 PM
Kathryn,

Some very good points on what's going on behind the curtain. Many Christians want to keep that dividing veil firmly in place.

One of the points you made about Joseph's encounter with the butler and baker reminded me of a brief interchange I had with Stephen Jones on the subject:



Stephen,



In Genesis 40, there appear to be two types of the church represented by the butler and baker. The butler seems to represent the Tabernacles-church as, in his dream, he presses ripe grapes into Pharaoh's cup and lives to
serve in his lord's house. The baker seems to represent the Pentecostal church as he is identified with baked goods (most certainly leavened wheat), as well as the crucifixion in that he is hung on a tree.

All gematria reveals this "reversal" concept of end threaded into the beginning.


Len

The butler seems to represent the first harvest of believers assigned to help "press/stamp out the vintage" of those that have not believed. As they have not partaken in the blood of their intercessor, the kingdom church will help deliver them to God anyway, albeit pulped, but likewise sweet and a part of God's table.

The baker seems to represent the wheat church, those believers whose place has been assigned with the unbelievers. Their leaven relegates them to the second harvest and prevents them from inheriting the kingdom. Nevertheless, they are justified. They have partaken in Christ's flesh, as the birds partake of the baker's. However, as Jones would say, the anointing of Pentecost is inferior to that of Tabernacles. Believers can only expect to get so much mileage out of justification and the process of sanctification.

Len
Hi All...
I just wanted to add that this "coming through the divide" or division...takes place in 3 stages (or squadrons) as Len has made reference to above. We have "crossed over" (or PASSed over)...Tabernacles is actually threaded through Pentecost and Passover (scarlet thread)...as the process of redemption moves from the 22 (Tav) or "end" through the beginning (1)...23 (life and death. Life overcomes death).
The next stage is the 12 (or 144,000) to go back into the "midst" to pick up the 12 stones and bring them out on their shoulders. (government...dominion restored in the Firstfruits who have been perfected )

kathryn
12-05-2011, 01:23 PM
For some reason the edits aren't working. This should go in the post above.

This concept of the "end" moving back "in and through" the beginning...or reversal...can be seen in all the numerical weights of the numbers expressing the concept in scripture. (gematria)
A wonderful example is the division of the "22" .....and the "3" (completion/perfection of the 3 feasts) moving through the midst of the gematria for "let their be light"....232.

This reversal or threading "back" is seen in other ways in gematria as well...but until I figure out how to include a link...I'll have to put it in later.

debz
12-05-2011, 01:24 PM
Hi All...
I just wanted to add that this "coming through the divide" or division...takes place in 3 stages (or squadrons) as Len has made reference to above. We have "crossed over" (or PASSed over)...Tabernacles is actually threaded through Pentecost and Passover (scarlet thread)...as the process of redemption moves from the 22 (Tav) or "end" through the beginning (1)...23 (life and death. Life overcomes death).
The next stage is the 12 (or 144,000) to go back into the "midst" to pick up the 12 stones and bring them out on their shoulders. (government...dominion restored in the Firstfruits who have been perfected )

YES! :smiley_applause: Agree, agree!!

Richard Amiel McGough
12-05-2011, 01:33 PM
For some reason the edits aren't working. This should go in the post above.

This concept of the "end" moving back "in and through" the beginning...or reversal...can be seen in all the numerical weight of the numbers expressing the concept in scripture. (gematria)
A wonderful example is the division of the "22" .....and the "3" (completion/perfection of the 3 feasts) moving through the midst of the gematria for "let their be light"....232.

This reversal or threading "back" is seen in other ways in gematria as well...but until I figure out how to include a link...I'll have to put it in later.

You can just post the link directly into the edit box, like this:

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2619-Looking-for-Dumbo

Or you can type something like Looking for Dumbo, highlight it, and click on the little globe with the link icon, and paste the link into the popup to get this:

Looking for Dumbo (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2619-Looking-for-Dumbo)

Thanks for mentioning the problem with the edit. I need all the info I can get. The members of this forum are my eyes and ears.

It could be because of an interruption caused by the site host - they were trying to fix a problem and created another in the process. But that was a short interruption.

One thing to always try: If you editor is not working, hit "Preview Post." That will reload the page and it often fixes little glitches. Unfortunately, there are lot's of little glitches in the editor that we use to write our posts. Hopefully they will get it debugged by the next release scheduled for next month.

Finally, if you can't edit using one browser, try a different one. I like FF best, it has spell check integrated. I don't like IE much at all. It seems to have more glitches.

kathryn
12-05-2011, 01:48 PM
This concept of the "end" moving back "in and through" the beginning...or reversal...can be seen in all the numerical weight of the numbers expressing the concept in scripture. (gematria)
A wonderful example is the division of the "22" .....and the "3" (completion/perfection of the 3 feasts) moving through the midst of the gematria for "let their be light"....232.

Just wanted to add that the 7th day of creation, or the Sabbath REST...is also woven (as the scarlet thread) through the 1st day....giving us the 8th or New Beginning.
The 8 ball (in the game of pool) is sunk or hung...(carnal head removed)...but as Richard pointed out in another post...the game is over/won.:) The circumcision (of the heart) has completed...and the "Son" is given his NEW name.

(thanks for the edit info Richard! )

Richard Amiel McGough
12-05-2011, 01:59 PM
Just wanted to add that the 7th day of creation, or the Sabbath REST...is also woven (as the scarlet thread) through the 1st day....giving us the 8th or New Beginning.
The 8 ball (in the game of pool) is sunk or hung...(carnal head removed)...but as Richard pointed out in another post...the game is over/won.:) The circumcision (of the heart) has completed...and the "Son" is given his NEW name.

(thanks for the edit info Richard! )
You're most welcome!

I hope it helps.

One other clue for everyone. When you are quoting another post, the quote appears between two quote tags like this:



Stuff being quoted.
Blah blah blah


Note that the closing quote tag has a backslash in it. That's how you always close tags.

The first quote tag can also have information about the name of the user, like this



Stuff being quoted.
Blah blah blah


And it could also have information about the post number it came from, like this:



Stuff being quoted.
Blah blah blah


Now if you see a quote that shows part of the quote tag, like "
" or perhaps you have a mistake in the closing tag that always must look like this: .

I mention this because I see a lot of posts with broken quote tags.

We now return you to your happy conversations:

:talk040:

Timmy
12-05-2011, 02:24 PM
:hysterical::woohoo::highfive: ...how the Lord has hidden some of this stuff until the "appointed time" to find it! It's like the account of Jesus riding the TWO donkeys
....which was an impossibility....but it's worded that way!

There's a great book...I think it's called The Holy Wild...where the author speaks of the Father hiding revelation like the Easter Bunny hides eggs. He seems to take an almost (almost) perverse pleasure in hiding some of them in the most obscure places....and then gets just as excited as we do, when we finally find them:lol:


Hi k!

...and i thought i was the only one who knew about TWO hee-haws; because everyone around here just looks so shocked if it is mentioned.

"Holy Wild":thumb:AWESOME BOOK!


Uncensoredly Bible Wheel's Wanderer,

Tim Tim Timmy Tim
Tim Timmy Tim Tim
Timmy Tim Tim Tim

Richard Amiel McGough
12-05-2011, 02:28 PM
Richard,

Isn't Numbers 31 full of Alephs? I count 30 instances of the word "thousand/s." Are there any Alephants blending in behind the foregrounded lattice of Numbers 31? You and Bob seem to be best equipped to handle such a question. I don't have sufficient skills with Hebrew or gematria to know for sure if anything is truly there. I'm largely relying on intuition.

Also, just like we were observing that DawMBO reduced to 4-13-2-1 or 4-4-2-1, the reverse of the numbers presented to you in the dream, the fact that Numbers 31 (4-31 or 4-4) seems to follow a similar pattern caused me to be curious. Likewise, the fact that 4-31 could be interpreted as Door of the Offspring or Lamb seems to suggest some correlation to the theme of birth into this life or the next.

Len
Hey there Len,

That's a very interesting way to look at DuMBO ... but why leave out the "u"? If we transliterate the whole word, I would be inclined towards this:

Dalet Vav Mem Bet Vav

I choose Vav for the "Bo" because that would correspond to the Hua ("he" or "his" - second person masculine pronoun). For example, the phrase dawmu bo, which means "his blood be upon him" from Ezekiel 33:5 is spelled:

Dalet-Mem-Vav Bet-Vav

That's also how you would write "His blood is in him" which has good and strong overtones from the Christian point of view because we have Christ's blood in us through communion. And note, it is an anagram of the way I transliterated Dumbo.

And we also have a strong correspondence with the phrase b'dam hua in Leviticus 17:11

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood [lit: b'dam hua = in his blood]: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

If we use an aleph in Bo (Bet Aleph) then it means "enter in" rather than "in him." Maybe it was intended as a double-entendre? Maybe. We don't know what it "really means" yet because we are just exploring all possibilities, but given the coherence with Let 17:11 I tend towards Bet Vav. This also coheres with the two Vavs summing to 12, the value of "hua" and the number given in the dream. By metathesis and gematria (VV = 12 = HUA) we have:

DUMBO = Dalet Vav Mem Bet Vav ==> Bet Dalet Mem Vav Vav ==> B'DM HUA = In his blood

Now if we use this spelling, we arrive at the sequence of ordinal values as 4 - 6 - 13 - 2 - 6. This sums to 31 => 4. I'll have to give it more thought before commenting more.

As for the high frequency of eleph (thousand) in the book of Numbers - your observation is correct. It contains the largest density of the word "eleph" meaning "thousand" in the Bible. Here is a graph of the distribution:

187

The occurrences are found mostly in chapters 1,2,3,4,26 of Numbers because that is where the census counts are given:
Numbers 1:20 And the children of Reuben, Israel's eldest son, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; 21 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Reuben, were forty and six thousand and five hundred. 22 ¶ Of the children of Simeon, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, those that were numbered of them, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; 23 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Simeon, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred. 24 ¶ Of the children of Gad, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war; 25 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Gad, were forty and five thousand six hundred and fifty. ... etc.

Numbers 31 is an exception, where the large number of numbers is because the booty from the destruction of the Midianites was being counted.

It's hard to imagine any "mystical" connection with the elephants or the Dumbo Dream in a case like this. But if you have any insights, please don't hesitate to share them! We are brainstorming here. It's something I've never had an opportunity to do in the last 21 years since I had the dream, so I'm very much loving it. We never know where one random observation may lead.

Thanks for your input!

Richard

kathryn
12-05-2011, 02:34 PM
Hi Timmy Tim Tim (that's got a good beat to it...! Are you the Little Drummer Boy? Timmmmm TimTimTim Timm TimTAHtimtimtim! (oh boy...now that's going to be going through my mind all day! har! Thanks alot!:p...I think that 8 ball has started the 8th octave of the Song of the Lord! )

The TWO donkeys....have you also noticed that they were un-tied at the "place where TWO ways meet"? (carnal and divine). Paul's shipwreck at the "place where two seas meet" (met?)
It's also the end/beginning.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-05-2011, 02:42 PM
Hi Timmy Tim Tim (that's got a good beat to it...! Are you the Little Drummer Boy? Timmmmm TimTimTim Timm Timtatimtimtim! (oh boy...now that's going to be going through my mind all day! har! Thanks alot!:p...I think that 8 ball has started the 8th octave of the Song of the Lord! )

It is the season! I find myself hearing Christmas songs when working alone in my office. I love sharing other people's thoughts. The communion of the saints. We all share the mind of Christ. Of course, I think that's just a way of expressing a universal phenomenon not restricted to Christians ... but still, it is a great truth!




Hi k!

...and i thought i was the only one who knew about TWO hee-haws; because everyone around here just looks so shocked if it is mentioned.

"Holy Wild":thumb:AWESOME BOOK!


Uncensoredly Bible Wheel's Wanderer,

Tim Tim Timmy Tim
Tim Timmy Tim Tim
Timmy Tim Tim Tim
The TWO donkeys....have you also noticed that they were un-tied at the "place where TWO ways meet"? (carnal and divine). Paul's shipwreck at the "place where two seas meet" (met?)
It's also the end/beginning.
Laughter and humor and much delight shakes open the shackles that hid the light!

Synergy is sparking a mutual awakening to lighten the burdensome load and enlighten the slumbering mind.

Timmy
12-05-2011, 03:53 PM
It is the season! I find myself hearing Christmas songs when working alone in my office. I love sharing other people's thoughts. The communion of the saints. We all share the mind of Christ. Of course, I think that's just a way of expressing a universal phenomenon not restricted to Christians ... but still, it is a great truth!


Laughter and humor and much delight shakes open the shackles that hid the light!

Synergy is sparking a mutual awakening to lighten the burdensome load and enlighten the slumbering mind.


Yeah, here we go k and RAM,
dancing in the sunlight of the dark:thumb:

k, (yes, and) 2's are always especially noted here: the Genesis 1 poem and then 2nd the particular accounting of creation, The poem itself beginning with a hint at two creations vv1-3), Eve from Adam, and then many two's between that onto Isaac not Ishmael, Jacob not Esau, Joseph's sons...anyway it's all over the place but thought it all ultimately represent the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, and then Jesus coming as the second Adam, a new heaven and earth and on and on and on. . .and now you gotZ me going on all the two that i can't get out of this mind...but i don't want to anyway.

You two sure know how get that sparky something goin'.
Both of you have triggered infinite circles of snakes eating thier own tails again and again from when first lurking months ago onto now.

Seems like laughter is the cathartic release needful towards walking outside of what or how we confine our selfs.


Big Kahuna,:grass skirted smilie doing luau hula:
Bubba Ram,:flowers:

In 2002 i read a book entitled, " Art and Physics: A Parallel Vision in Space, Time, and Light. There is a second book by the same author noted on your Home page (Alphabet Versus Godess). A bit of it was read on Amazon, but the premise seems a bit flawed. The topic is right up my alley though so i'll probably at least get it and give it a read. Any comments if you have read it?


Cannabis?
It cures asthma but will kill a leukemic.

Happily,
Synergetically,

Timmy Tim Tim Tim

debz
12-05-2011, 03:57 PM
It's hard to imagine any "mystical" connection with the elephants or the Dumbo Dream in a case like this. But if you have any insights, please don't hesitate to share them! We are brainstorming here. It's something I've never had an opportunity to do in the last 21 years since I had the dream, so I'm very much loving it. We never know where one random observation may lead.


IMO, the high occurrence of "eleph" which equals 1000, in the book of "Numbers" = "numbers (gematria, etc.) are revealing the keys to the Kingdom"; "kingdom" is represented by the Most Holy Place -- dimensions of MHP in Tabernacle = 1000 (also number for maturity/what we're all supposed to "grow up into" -- most all of NT teaching is about this); dimensions of MHP in Temple 8000 = # of renewal, resurrection x 1000/mature stature....

heb13-13
12-05-2011, 04:05 PM
But if we are gong to continue this discussion about Satan and Demons, I would like to move it to its own thread since it's way off topic.

Great chatting!

Richard

Hey Richard,

Go ahead and move the discussion. I will be looking for it.

Rick

Richard Amiel McGough
12-05-2011, 05:19 PM
Hey Richard,

Go ahead and move the discussion. I will be looking for it.

Rick
Hey there Rick,

I have moved all the posts focusing on that question to a new thread called Discerning between the voice of God and the voice of Satan (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2659-Discerning-between-the-voice-of-God-and-the-voice-of-Satan).

See ya there! :h1:

I do hope you will continue to offer any insights you might have to the Dumbo Dream.

Bob May
12-06-2011, 09:47 AM
Hi Richard and all,

I wrote a pretty long post yesterday and when I hit the submit reply button I did not have connection to the internet anymore. Scratch, Game over.
Sometimes, I just take that as a sign that I need to rewrite something.


I call it wonderful!

It's nice to have someone to talk to who can relate.


Ex 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

We are talking about Joseph experiences here. He was a dreamer and an interpreter of Dreams. "Brothers" get real pissed when you start talking about these personalspiritual experiences.
But in the blessing of Jacob on his sons there are many hints.

Ge 49:22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
Ge 49:23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
Ge 49:24 But his bow ( bow of promise. Dum-BO) abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)
Ge 49:25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb: (Joseph had dreams and visions and learned to interpret them. But he was well aware that the interpretations came from God. As did the dreams and visions themselves.)

Ge 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph,
(Joseph had reached a level of understanding well past his previous experiences, symbolised by his ancestors. When this happens to us it is very difficult to find someone who we can talk to.

...and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.
(We are beginning to get the effects of the crown chakra opening. And we are separate from our brethren even if we do not leave. I left by popular demand.)
Trying to speak to them is like going back to your old neighborhood. It just doesn't work.

As I showed in the Matthew 17 thread, Joseph is a middle Pillar experience. Joseph was 17 when he recieved the coat of many colors. The Sephirah on the middle pillar add up 17. 1+6+9+10 = 1691 = 17
It relates to the Path from Yesod to Tipareth. It is the Samech letter which looks like this in ancient form.

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/Samechancientforms.jpg

A telephone pole with three horizontals. Just like the tree of life. (Also the Tabernacle blueprint posted by Deb,...Which should be required reading to any believer!!!!!) This is the veil leading into to the Holy Place.
Tipareth. Christ Consciousness,...we are becoming aware of Christ.
Joseph is the consciousness in us that reaches over the "Wall" in our ability to see that Christ is speaking to us all of the time. Through all of our surroundings.

It is also the Temperance Card. An angel living in two worlds at once. One foot on land and one on water with the RAINBOW surrounding his head. With two cups (the cup that Joseph divined from and drank from)\Puoring water from cup to cup in front of his belly. (Last day of tabernacles,..drink from Christ and have fountains of water flowing out of our bellies)

The wall that Joseph's branches reach over is the first Horizontal path on the tree of life. The Tower card.
Our old view of this world must be destroyed and is by the realization that what we are getting is from God (blessings) whether it is "from above or the deep." (Consciousness and subconsciousness.)



I'm still wondering about the Master and Ringmaster symbols because on the one hand, they feel like an "other" and on the other hand they feel like an aspect of myself. I don't identify with the ringmaster in the Dumbo movie at all, but he is the one who was told "Dumbo" in his ear while sleeping. He's the one who imprisoned Dumbo's mom, and his proud pyramid of pachyderms caused his tent to fall down upon his head (with a little help from Dumbo tripping over his ears, of course).


There is no "other". You are tripping over your ears!!!
The ringMaster, the Master pool player, the Master of your 4 ring circus, (ie. You), and You are all ONE With Christ.



The "master" who wanted to play pool did seem somewhat "exalted" or "in the know." It makes some sense for him to represent my subconscious.


Or Christ.
Also the ringmaster who, it seems is a type of bad guy who imprisoned Dumbo's (blood covenant) Mom.
Didn't God let the brother's sell Joseph into slavery? And didn't Joseph later say that though the brothers meant it for evil, God meant it for good that a great salvation would take place because of it?
And the tent falling down is the tower card. Lightning, God's doing!!!



The woman with black hair and the red sweater seems most obviously aligned with my anima. So the three could be aspects of my own soul, like the shadow, the ego, and the anima. Or maybe all mixed up and overlapping - that's the thing about dream images. They overlap a lot.


Blessing of heaven above and of the great deep beneath. Sounds like overlap to me.




I've wondered about the "bucks" - if it could be a pun. It hasn't really revealed itself to me yet. But the pool table with it's six pockets echoes whole the cosmos centered on Tipharet (Sixth Sephirah).


Yes, which is what Joseph's branch reaches. Christ Consciousness is beginning here and it is the awareness that we are following him. When he said follow me it was not a request. It was more like let there be light and there was light. We have no choice in the matter.
Spiritual progression is coming to an awareness of who we already are in Christ. Waking up. Smelling the coffee.



I can see a lot of potential in those insights, but they go beyond my experience and so seem only as abstractions to me right now. But thanks for sharing them. I get the impression that you have had experiences that seem to match these three baptisms. Is that correct?


They do not go beyond you experience in the respect that you are still looking at a 20 year old dream.
Joseph's bones were brought into the promised land with the children of Israel.
Bones are the patterns that we look at to see what things mean. The appearance is the flesh.
Bones are what we compare. The structure behind the stories that lead us to the inescapable conclusion that Christ is in us.




Thanks for all the insights. I really love brainstorming with you on these themes.

Richard

Well, you are very welcome, Richard. But I really have no choice. When I see something I have to say something. I'm sure you can relate to that.
In the last few years in discussing things on this forum I have learned more than I have in the last 20.
It is as if things are coming together.
Joseph had two sons Manasseh and Ephraim. These are Wisdom and Understanding.

Wisdom as my teacher understood and taught it was "knowing without having known."
These are little insights that we get in reading the scripture and just in life itself from whatever direction.

Understanding is watching the pieces fall together and forming a whole picture. Ephraim got the greater blessing and was second born.

Again I would like to stress looking at Deb's Tabernacle Blueprint.
http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2634-Tabernacle-Blueprint-and-the-Gospel
I read it last night at work and I can't recommend it enough.
It is a structure we need to keep in the back of our minds like the bones of Joseph.

PS Also, this just occurred to me,.. the two or three witnesses can be related to the two or three bucks.
Jesus manifests to us in different ways. The third way is that we realize he is in us and we are living the life he did. We are following him because he is in us.

Bob

debz
12-06-2011, 07:24 PM
Hi Richard and all,

I wrote a pretty long post yesterday and when I hit the submit reply button I did not have connection to the internet anymore. Scratch, Game over.
Sometimes, I just take that as a sign that I need to rewrite something.



Ex 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

We are talking about Joseph experiences here. He was a dreamer and an interpreter of Dreams. "Brothers" get real pissed when you start talking about these personalspiritual experiences.
But in the blessing of Jacob on his sons there are many hints.

Ge 49:22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
Ge 49:23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
Ge 49:24 But his bow ( bow of promise. Dum-BO) abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)
Ge 49:25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb: (Joseph had dreams and visions and learned to interpret them. But he was well aware that the interpretations came from God. As did the dreams and visions themselves.)

Ge 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph,
(Joseph had reached a level of understanding well past his previous experiences, symbolised by his ancestors. When this happens to us it is very difficult to find someone who we can talk to.

...and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.
(We are beginning to get the effects of the crown chakra opening. And we are separate from our brethren even if we do not leave. I left by popular demand.)
Trying to speak to them is like going back to your old neighborhood. It just doesn't work.

As I showed in the Matthew 17 thread, Joseph is a middle Pillar experience. Joseph was 17 when he recieved the coat of many colors. The Sephirah on the middle pillar add up 17. 1+6+9+10 = 1691 = 17
It relates to the Path from Yesod to Tipareth. It is the Samech letter which looks like this in ancient form.

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/Samechancientforms.jpg

A telephone pole with three horizontals. Just like the tree of life. (Also the Tabernacle blueprint posted by Deb,...Which should be required reading to any believer!!!!!) This is the veil leading into to the Holy Place.
Tipareth. Christ Consciousness,...we are becoming aware of Christ.
Joseph is the consciousness in us that reaches over the "Wall" in our ability to see that Christ is speaking to us all of the time. Through all of our surroundings.

It is also the Temperance Card. An angel living in two worlds at once. One foot on land and one on water with the RAINBOW surrounding his head. With two cups (the cup that Joseph divined from and drank from)\Puoring water from cup to cup in front of his belly. (Last day of tabernacles,..drink from Christ and have fountains of water flowing out of our bellies)

The wall that Joseph's branches reach over is the first Horizontal path on the tree of life. The Tower card.
Our old view of this world must be destroyed and is by the realization that what we are getting is from God (blessings) whether it is "from above or the deep." (Consciousness and subconsciousness.)



There is no "other". You are tripping over your ears!!!
The ringMaster, the Master pool player, the Master of your 4 ring circus, (ie. You), and You are all ONE With Christ.



Or Christ.
Also the ringmaster who, it seems is a type of bad guy who imprisoned Dumbo's (blood covenant) Mom.
Didn't God let the brother's sell Joseph into slavery? And didn't Joseph later say that though the brothers meant it for evil, God meant it for good that a great salvation would take place because of it?
And the tent falling down is the tower card. Lightning, God's doing!!!



Blessing of heaven above and of the great deep beneath. Sounds like overlap to me.




Yes, which is what Joseph's branch reaches. Christ Consciousness is beginning here and it is the awareness that we are following him. When he said follow me it was not a request. It was more like let there be light and there was light. We have no choice in the matter.
Spiritual progression is coming to an awareness of who we already are in Christ. Waking up. Smelling the coffee.



They do not go beyond you experience in the respect that you are still looking at a 20 year old dream.
Joseph's bones were brought into the promised land with the children of Israel.
Bones are the patterns that we look at to see what things mean. The appearance is the flesh.
Bones are what we compare. The structure behind the stories that lead us to the inescapable conclusion that Christ is in us.




Well, you are very welcome, Richard. But I really have no choice. When I see something I have to say something. I'm sure you can relate to that.
In the last few years in discussing things on this forum I have learned more than I have in the last 20.
It is as if things are coming together.
Joseph had two sons Manasseh and Ephraim. These are Wisdom and Understanding.

Wisdom as my teacher understood and taught it was "knowing without having known."
These are little insights that we get in reading the scripture and just in life itself from whatever direction.

Understanding is watching the pieces fall together and forming a whole picture. Ephraim got the greater blessing and was second born.

Again I would like to stress looking at Deb's Tabernacle Blueprint.
http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2634-Tabernacle-Blueprint-and-the-Gospel
I read it last night at work and I can't recommend it enough.
It is a structure we need to keep in the back of our minds like the bones of Joseph.

PS Also, this just occurred to me,.. the two or three witnesses can be related to the two or three bucks.
Jesus manifests to us in different ways. The third way is that we realize he is in us and we are living the life he did. We are following him because he is in us.

Bob

:applause: EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT POST, Bob! :thumb: You have a lot of insight, and I think you are right on target with assisting with that interpretation. And thanks for the compliment on my "Tabernacles Blueprint" -- I also see that as like the "bones" -- the basis around which all revelation on the "big plan" revolve.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-06-2011, 10:49 PM
Hi Richard and all,

I wrote a pretty long post yesterday and when I hit the submit reply button I did not have connection to the internet anymore. Scratch, Game over.
Sometimes, I just take that as a sign that I need to rewrite something.

Hey there Bob,

Sorry to hear about your loss. That can be frustrating. If it happens again, you can just go back to the thread you were working on, click "Reply to Thread" and you should see a link that says Restore Auto-Saved Content in the lower left corner of your edit box:

194

Click that, and everything you thought was lost should be restored. This is a great new feature with vBulletin 4 that I have used more than once.



Ex 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

We are talking about Joseph experiences here. He was a dreamer and an interpreter of Dreams. "Brothers" get real pissed when you start talking about these personalspiritual experiences.

Good point! I think that is what unites us as a community - we all have seen things and had experiences that have taken us beyond the "ordinary" church experience. And a lot of believers find this very disturbing because they are at a stage of growth that sees "differences" as potential "heresies" and "threats."



But in the blessing of Jacob on his sons there are many hints.

Ge 49:22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
Ge 49:23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
Ge 49:24 But his bow ( bow of promise. Dum-BO) abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)
Ge 49:25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb: (Joseph had dreams and visions and learned to interpret them. But he was well aware that the interpretations came from God. As did the dreams and visions themselves.)

Ge 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph,
(Joseph had reached a level of understanding well past his previous experiences, symbolised by his ancestors. When this happens to us it is very difficult to find someone who we can talk to.

...and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.
(We are beginning to get the effects of the crown chakra opening. And we are separate from our brethren even if we do not leave. I left by popular demand.)
Trying to speak to them is like going back to your old neighborhood. It just doesn't work.


Yes, the name Joseph is from yasaph which means "to add" or "to expand, to increase."

Genesis 30:24 And she called his name Joseph; and said, The LORD shall add (yasaph) to me another son.

The puns used in the naming verses give a lot of insight into the meaning of the name, and hence the role of that person in the Biblical story.

I hadn't thought of any connection between the "bo" in Dumbo and the "bow" of promise. But now that you mention it, I see an obvious connection. Immediately before the promise of the bow (rainbow) we read:
Genesis 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. 2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. 3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. 4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. 5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. 6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood (dam ha-adam ba-adam damu) be shed: for in the image of God made he man. 7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein. 8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, 9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; 10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. 11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. 12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.


The text is very much full of echoing sounds - dam ha-adam ba-adam damo - all wrapped up in Dumbo. And this passage is the "prototype" of Leviticus 17:11 where I found b'dam hua:
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood [b'dam hua]: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

So the "promise" is somehow wrapped up with the idea of "blood" which is linked to "life" in some important way.




As I showed in the Matthew 17 thread, Joseph is a middle Pillar experience. Joseph was 17 when he recieved the coat of many colors. The Sephirah on the middle pillar add up 17. 1+6+9+10 = 1691 = 17

It relates to the Path from Yesod to Tipareth. It is the Samech letter which looks like this in ancient form.

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/Samechancientforms.jpg

A telephone pole with three horizontals. Just like the tree of life. (Also the Tabernacle blueprint posted by Deb,...Which should be required reading to any believer!!!!!) This is the veil leading into to the Holy Place.
Tipareth. Christ Consciousness,...we are becoming aware of Christ.
Joseph is the consciousness in us that reaches over the "Wall" in our ability to see that Christ is speaking to us all of the time. Through all of our surroundings.

It is also the Temperance Card. An angel living in two worlds at once. One foot on land and one on water with the RAINBOW surrounding his head. With two cups (the cup that Joseph divined from and drank from)\Puoring water from cup to cup in front of his belly. (Last day of tabernacles,..drink from Christ and have fountains of water flowing out of our bellies)

The wall that Joseph's branches reach over is the first Horizontal path on the tree of life. The Tower card.
Our old view of this world must be destroyed and is by the realization that what we are getting is from God (blessings) whether it is "from above or the deep." (Consciousness and subconsciousness.)

The sum of the central sephiroth 1 + 6 + 9 + 10 = 26 = YHVH which I always felt was very significant. But if we reduce it we get 1 + 6 + 9 + 1 = 17 which is the age Joseph had his dream.

Of course, Yoseph is spelt Yod Vav Samek Peh.

On the morning I had my Dumbo Dream I noted that 528 = 3 x 11 x 16 and this corresonds to the three horizontal beams on the tree of life:

3 = III = Empress Card (Dalet)
11 = XI = Strength (Tet)
16 = XVI = Tower Card (Pey)

In the diagram I drew that morning I called the 11th card "Lust" because that was the name of the Strength Card in Crowley's deck which I was using at that time:

196


So it seems you are picking up on the same archetypal structure that I tapped into the morning of that dream.



There is no "other". You are tripping over your ears!!!
The ringMaster, the Master pool player, the Master of your 4 ring circus, (ie. You), and You are all ONE With Christ.

:lmbo:

Tripping over my own ears! I love it!



Or Christ.
Also the ringmaster who, it seems is a type of bad guy who imprisoned Dumbo's (blood covenant) Mom.
Didn't God let the brother's sell Joseph into slavery? And didn't Joseph later say that though the brothers meant it for evil, God meant it for good that a great salvation would take place because of it?
And the tent falling down is the tower card. Lightning, God's doing!!!

Dumbo's mom was imprisoned in a cage with a sign that said "Mad Elephant" - note the MD.

And yes, the central pole upholding the tent was snapped as the elephants fell from their pyramid (tower). Dumbo was the "lighting bolt" that knocked down the whole tower of elephants.



They do not go beyond you experience in the respect that you are still looking at a 20 year old dream.
Joseph's bones were brought into the promised land with the children of Israel.
Bones are the patterns that we look at to see what things mean. The appearance is the flesh.
Bones are what we compare. The structure behind the stories that lead us to the inescapable conclusion that Christ is in us.

That makes sense - the "bones" are like the underlying archetypes and the "flesh" is the way each individual clothes those archetypes.



Well, you are very welcome, Richard. But I really have no choice. When I see something I have to say something. I'm sure you can relate to that.
In the last few years in discussing things on this forum I have learned more than I have in the last 20.
It is as if things are coming together.
Joseph had two sons Manasseh and Ephraim. These are Wisdom and Understanding.

Wisdom as my teacher understood and taught it was "knowing without having known."
These are little insights that we get in reading the scripture and just in life itself from whatever direction.

Understanding is watching the pieces fall together and forming a whole picture. Ephraim got the greater blessing and was second born.

Again I would like to stress looking at Deb's Tabernacle Blueprint.
http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2634-Tabernacle-Blueprint-and-the-Gospel
I read it last night at work and I can't recommend it enough.
It is a structure we need to keep in the back of our minds like the bones of Joseph.

PS Also, this just occurred to me,.. the two or three witnesses can be related to the two or three bucks.
Jesus manifests to us in different ways. The third way is that we realize he is in us and we are living the life he did. We are following him because he is in us.

Bob
Good stuff Bob. I will revisit Deb's Tabernacle blueprint.

Great chatting!

Richard

Bob May
12-07-2011, 02:12 PM
Hey there Bob,

Sorry to hear about your loss. That can be frustrating. If it happens again, you can just go back to the thread you were working on, click "Reply to Thread" and you should see a link that says Restore Auto-Saved Content in the lower left corner of your edit box:


Very cool Richard, thanks. I'm sure it will happen again so that will be a real time saver.

Originally Posted by Bob May
Ex 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

We are talking about Joseph experiences here. He was a dreamer and an interpreter of Dreams. "Brothers" get real pissed when you start talking about these personalspiritual experiences.





Good point! I think that is what unites us as a community - we all have seen things and had experiences that have taken us beyond the "ordinary" church experience. And a lot of believers find this very disturbing because they are at a stage of growth that sees "differences" as potential "heresies" and "threats."

Yes, the name Joseph is from yasaph which means "to add" or "to expand, to increase."

Genesis 30:24 And she called his name Joseph; and said, The LORD shall add (yasaph) to me another son.


Yes, a threat not only to their religious views. Joseph is a turning point. Your dreams are no longer just relating subconscious elements within your own mind here. "Blessings of the deep"
They are relating happenings in outer world circumstances and waking consciousness and eternal principles to your dreams.
That is scary!!! Most people will absolutely not cross that line. And you will see them get completely irrational defending that line.
All the while this is happening they are unknowingly by their actions and words CONFIRMING what you are saying.
When both Pilate and Caiaphas asked Jesus if he was the king of the Jews or son of God, he said "Thou sayest it." He was watching them play out the old testament prophecies before his eyes. Playing their part to the letter. They were confirming that he was the Son of God.
Same thing happens to us as happened to him. We are surrounded by people that are telling us we are sons of God.



I hadn't thought of any connection between the "bo" in Dumbo and the "bow" of promise. But now that you mention it, I see an obvious connection.


That is why I mentioned it again. I didn't think you had caught it. Blood Covenant. Dum Bo!!!
I am glad you added the God blessed Noah verses below. I had forgotten it was so long. There is a lot there.



Immediately before the promise of the bow (rainbow) we read:
Genesis 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.



Re-evaluating the sybolism with the idea in mind that we are now experiencing the fulfillment of those promises to us. And that God is speaking through those symbols.




2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. 3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.


Jesus said that he had meat to eat that his disciples "knew not of."
And "everything that liveth" is everything!!! Because it has had the sprinkling that speaketh better things than that of Abel.




4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. 5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. 6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood (dam ha-adam ba-adam damu) be shed: for in the image of God made he man.


We are to cease and desist interpreting our surroundings according to the outward appearances. (Flesh)
And keep interpreting them according to the Promise. Christ in you, the hope of Glory.
Noah went through the flood (Baptism) and landed on a mountain top. A higher state of consciousness that he previously did not know existed.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.






7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein. 8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, 9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; 10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. 11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.


The text is very much full of echoing sounds - dam ha-adam ba-adam damo - all wrapped up in Dumbo. And this passage is the "prototype" of Leviticus 17:11 where I found b'dam hua:
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood [b'dam hua]: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

So the "promise" is somehow wrapped up with the idea of "blood" which is linked to "life" in some important way.


Yes, the world is speaking directly to us. It has had the blood of Jesus sprinkled upon it. God made a covenant not only with us but "Every Living Creature that is with us in the Ark." Which is IN CHRIST!!
And that is EVERYTHING. Everything is crying out Dumbo,...Blood Covenant!!!
The blood makes an At One Ment for the soul.
The Spiritual experience of Tipareth is Vision of the Harmony of Things. Christ Consciousness!!! We become aware that we are in him and he is in us and permeates everything.
And we begin to hear his voice in all things even a dream about Dumbo.

This is how we are to interpret all of Reality from then on. We have a Joseph experience and everything changes.
Incidentally, I just found out that one of the symbols for Tipareth is the Lamen. A lamen is the sybol worn upon the breast of a magician to show that the magician symbolizes that particular force when working ceremonial magic. The angel on the Temperance card is wearing an orange triangle upon his/her breast.
This is fire. It is also Shin the symbol of the three supernals.
So the beginning of the baptism of air (Pentecost, Joseph, God speaking through dreams, visions etc.)
Contains the Baptism of Fire within it.
We recieve the influences (Grace) of the Godhead through the sephirah of Tipareth. Whether water, Air or fire, Baptism, which is one, contains the Fire which Jesus said he came to start and which he said was already kindled.



it shall be for a token [/COLOR]of a covenant between me and the earth.
[/INDENT]
the text is very much full of echoing sounds - dam ha-adam ba-adam damo - all wrapped up in Dumbo


Very cool. And I see the earth is "in on it" with God.



The sum of the central sephiroth 1 + 6 + 9 + 10 = 26 = YHVH which I always felt was very significant. But if we reduce it we get 1 + 6 + 9 + 1 = 17 which is the age Joseph had his dream.


Which I take as the realization of sonship. Realizing that we are fellow heirs with Christ. It took me a while to come to this conclusion, but I believe we will find that to be the case if we follow the 17 throughout scripture. Bow, Circle, fish, overcome, Garment are some listed in your database.



Of course, Yoseph is spelt Yod Vav Samek Peh.
On the morning I had my Dumbo Dream I noted that 528 = 3 x 11 x 16 and this corresonds to the three horizontal beams on the tree of life:

3 = III = Empress Card (Dalet)
11 = XI = Strength (Tet)
16 = XVI = Tower Card (Pey)

In the diagram I drew that morning I called the 11th card "Lust" because that was the name of the Strength Card in Crowley's deck which I was using at that time:

196


So it seems you are picking up on the same archetypal structure that I tapped into the morning of that dream.


Very good find with the cross paths numbers matching up with the dates.

Another application of speaking in other tongues. Another language and replenishing the earth.
Very cool stuff here. This is the way it is supposed to work. This would also relat to the three doors/veils in the Tabernacle.
I believe what were seeing here is the door to the Holy Place.
The Baptism of air.





:lmbo:

Tripping over my own ears! I love it!


Dumbo's mom was imprisoned in a cage with a sign that said "Mad Elephant" - note the MD.

And yes, the central pole upholding the tent was snapped as the elephants fell from their pyramid (tower). Dumbo was the "lighting bolt" that knocked down the whole tower of elephants.


That makes sense - the "bones" are like the underlying archetypes and the "flesh" is the way each individual clothes those archetypes.


Good stuff Bob. I will revisit Deb's Tabernacle blueprint.

Great chatting!

Richard

Yes, very good stuff, Richard. It is amazing that when you get into "Classic Literature" how much of the symbolism adds up. Poets and writers tap into this and may or may not know what they are doing.
But it all seems to work out.

All the best,
Bob

lenvande
12-08-2011, 10:48 PM
According to Wiki, "The first historically recorded elephant in northern Europe was the animal brought by emperor Claudius, during the Roman invasion of Britain in AD 43, to the British capital of Colchester" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_elephants_in_Europe). Rome Latinized Britain, so it isn't surprising that the English word "elephant" is said to have been derived from the Latin elephantus. At the time, the common languages in Britain were Brythonic and Gaelic. Today, different dialects of Gaelic pronounce the word more or less similarly (Irish-eilifint, Manx-elefant, and Scottish-ailbhean. Pronunciations in French, German, and the Scandinavian languages are also similar.

When the Latin pronunciation became standardized within what would become English, as well as other native languages spoken in Europe at the time, isn't exactly clear, but I can just imagine that, when elephants started to be used by the Romans as part of their military machine in Europe, the Latin name for such an animal must have become pretty much universal: "What the hell is that?!!" "Beats me, but our Roman oppressors call it an elephantus!" I doubt there was a committee formed for the purpose of discussing whether or not the loanword should be allowed to contaminate the languages spoken by Britons at that time, so the term must have been absorbed almost instantly.

Interestingly, the Hebrew word for "elephant"--PYL (or peel)--doesn't include an Aleph at all. Rather, it paints an obvious word picture: Pey for mouth, Yod for grasping hand, and Lamed for staff. Put them all together, and you have a picture of an animal with what looks like a prehensile staff grasping food and feeding itself. As would be expected, similar pronunciations exist in other Middle-Eastern languages like Farsi (feel) and Arabic (fel). However, I have to say I was surprised by the Icelandic pronunciation (fill). Is anyone aware of a linguistic link to Hebrew? Also, I suppose if you treat the Hebrew spelling PYL as an anagram, you could come out with Y-L-F, which could be pronounced yeleph.

kathryn
12-09-2011, 12:40 AM
Facinating posts, Richard, Bob and Len....Bob..your point about the bow earlier this morning on the Matt.17:27 thread, also fits with Neith (Asenath). Bow also means "come" as in Shiloh (Joseph/Ephraim)...or as Asenath, the female personification of Joseph.(together who form the double annointing/fruitfulness as Brother Sun and Sister Moon when consummated)

L

Bob May
12-09-2011, 04:00 PM
According to Wiki, "The first historically recorded elephant in northern Europe was the animal brought by emperor Claudius, during the Roman invasion of Britain in AD 43, to the British capital of Colchester" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_elephants_in_Europe). Rome Latinized Britain, so it isn't surprising that the English word "elephant" is said to have been derived from the Latin elephantus. At the time, the common languages in Britain were Brythonic and Gaelic. Today, different dialects of Gaelic pronounce the word more or less similarly (Irish-eilifint, Manx-elefant, and Scottish-ailbhean. Pronunciations in French, German, and the Scandinavian languages are also similar.

When the Latin pronunciation became standardized within what would become English, as well as other native languages spoken in Europe at the time, isn't exactly clear, but I can just imagine that, when elephants started to be used by the Romans as part of their military machine in Europe, the Latin name for such an animal must have become pretty much universal: "What the hell is that?!!" "Beats me, but our Roman oppressors call it an elephantus!" I doubt there was a committee formed for the purpose of discussing whether or not the loanword should be allowed to contaminate the languages spoken by Britons at that time, so the term must have been absorbed almost instantly.

Interestingly, the Hebrew word for "elephant"--PYL (or peel)--doesn't include an Aleph at all. Rather, it paints an obvious word picture: Pey for mouth, Yod for grasping hand, and Lamed for staff. Put them all together, and you have a picture of an animal with what looks like a prehensile staff grasping food and feeding itself. As would be expected, similar pronunciations exist in other Middle-Eastern languages like Farsi (feel) and Arabic (fel). However, I have to say I was surprised by the Icelandic pronunciation (fill). Is anyone aware of a linguistic link to Hebrew? Also, I suppose if you treat the Hebrew spelling PYL as an anagram, you could come out with Y-L-F, which could be pronounced yeleph.

Also the Lamed also means Ox goad. A tool used for directing the animal. Also used when training and directing elephants.
Also the nuns in Catholic grammar school used a similar device when dealing with children. I think they called it a pointer!!!
Bob

Bob May
12-09-2011, 04:41 PM
Facinating posts, Richard, Bob and Len....Bob..your point about the bow earlier this morning on the Matt.17:27 thread, also fits with Neith (Asenath). Bow also means "come" as in Shiloh (Joseph/Ephraim)...or as Asenath, the female personification of Joseph.(together who form the double annointing/fruitfulness as Brother Sun and Sister Moon when consummated)

L

The Middle pillar is also known as the Path of the Arrow, Joseph's bow abode in strength. On meant Sun.
Ge 41:50 And unto Joseph were born two sons before the years of famine came, which Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On bare unto him
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

און 'Own {one} or (shortened) אן 'On {one} of Egyptian derivation;; n pr loc AV - On 3; 3 On = "strength or vigour" 1) city in lower Egypt, bordering land of Goshen, centre of sun-worship, residence of Potipherah (priest of On and father-in-law of Joseph)

Aleph Vav Nun = On = strength or vigor
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

אונן 'Ownan {o-nawn'} a variation of 0207;; n pr m AV - Onan 8; 8 Onan = "strong" 1) second son of Judah, slain by God for not fulfilling the levitical requirement to beget a child with the wife of a dead, childless brother

Aleph Vav Nun Nun = Onan = Strength--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ge 38:3 And she conceived, and bare a son; and he called his name Er.
Ge 38:4 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and she called his name Onan.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ער `Er {ayr} from 05782;; n pr m AV - Er 10; 10 Er = "awake" 1) the eldest son of Judah 2) son of Shelah and grandson of Judah


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ge 38:8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
Ge 38:9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

The curse of Onan was to NOT raise up seed. To his brother Er awakening.

It ended up that Judah did by Tamar's deception.
Ge 38:15 When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face.
Ge 38:16 And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me?
Ge 38:17 And he said, I will send thee a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give me a pledge, till thou send it?
Ge 38:18 And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that is in thine hand. And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him.

The seed (Sex energy) must be sublimated for awakening to happen. It can be a conscious effort by certain meditation practices or an automatic process that comes from Praise or worship.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

יהודה Yehuwdah {yeh-hoo-daw'} from 03034; TWOT - 850c; n pr m AV - Judah 809, Bethlehemjudah + 01035 10; 819 Judah = "praised" 1) the son of Jacob by Leah 2) the tribe descended from Judah the son of Jacob
Onan refused to Raise Up Seed. Sublimate sex energy.

I was discussing this with my wife on the way to our balloon sculpture Job in downtown Chicago this morning. (It's Christams season already.)
She turned to me and said, "We are doing this job and tomorrow's job through Tamar Productions."

Bob

kathryn
12-09-2011, 05:46 PM
Wonderful post Bob...We are always on the same theme, on the same day! Please check out the "Male Bias" thread for more on this.:winking0071:

Bob May
12-11-2011, 02:17 AM
Wonderful post Bob...We are always on the same theme, on the same day! Please check out the "Male Bias" thread for more on this.:winking0071:

Yesterday was the second day in a row of doing our yearly Christmas party for "Tamar" entertainment.
It is a corporate party for employees at Mc Donalds University in Oak Brook IL, a suburb of Chicago.
We make animal balloons and paint faces there every year around this date.
Later after I got home I had a half hour to change clothes and then bring my son to work. I was thinking about the things I have been posting here and a car passed me on the I-80 expressway.
The license plate read: "PHAREZ 5."

Ge 38:28 And it came to pass, when she travailed, that the one put out his hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first.
Ge 38:29 And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? this breach be upon thee: therefore his name was called PHAREZ.
Ge 38:30 And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah.

Breach:
(brēch)
n.
1.
a.An opening, a tear, or a rupture.
b.A gap or rift, especially in or as if in a solid structure such as a dike or fortification.
2.A violation or infraction, as of a law, a legal obligation, or a promise.
3.A breaking up or disruption of friendly relations; an estrangement.
4.A leap of a whale from the water.5.The breaking of waves or surf.

What are the odds?

Bob

Bob May
12-11-2011, 02:23 AM
While I was making balloons for the children Ronald just happened to be walking by me talking with the children.
He made some comment about a flock of reindeer and then thought again and looked at me and said "Is it flock or herd?"
I told him it was "bevy."
God, I can be a smart ass sometimes.

Bob

kathryn
12-11-2011, 08:16 AM
Yesterday was the second day in a row of doing our yearly Christmas party for "Tamar" entertainment.
It is a corporate party for employees at Mc Donalds University in Oak Brook IL, a suburb of Chicago.
We make animal balloons and paint faces there every year around this date.
Later after I got home I had a half hour to change clothes and then bring my son to work. I was thinking about the things I have been posting here and a car passed me on the I-80 expressway.
The license plate read: "PHAREZ 5."

Ge 38:28 And it came to pass, when she travailed, that the one put out his hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first.
Ge 38:29 And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? this breach be upon thee: therefore his name was called PHAREZ.
Ge 38:30 And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah.

Breach:
(brēch)
n.
1.
a.An opening, a tear, or a rupture.
b.A gap or rift, especially in or as if in a solid structure such as a dike or fortification.
2.A violation or infraction, as of a law, a legal obligation, or a promise.
3.A breaking up or disruption of friendly relations; an estrangement.
4.A leap of a whale from the water.5.The breaking of waves or surf.

What are the odds?OH MY!!!! Ain't it GRAND!!!?

Bob

kathryn
12-11-2011, 08:17 AM
While I was making balloons for the children Ronald just happened to be walking by me talking with the children.
He made some comment about a flock of reindeer and then thought again and looked at me and said "Is it flock or herd?"
I told him it was "bevy."
God, I can be a smart ass sometimes.

Bob It's that Wascally Wabbit IN (and through) you! har!

kathryn
12-11-2011, 08:32 AM
Oh my! Rrrrrrrr-onald MacDonald!!! A fine Scottish name for a Laddie! D' ye think his outfit might be prophesying a wee somethin' as well? The red , ruddy hair, the big red lips...the stripes on his arms...and those exceptionally large ruby slippers..er ...shoes! Is it possible he's from EDENburg too...?:hysterical:

kathryn
12-11-2011, 08:39 AM
:hysterical::sos:whew...my gut hurts from laughing! So now we have elephants who are hippos and sea horses...assholes who are dumb until they're deliverd by the Stork!..and...That Wascally Wabbit is singing again !: lalalalalalYou've got your TWO alligators and longed-neck geese, some humpy backed Lamas and some Chimpanzees...some cats and rats and elephants and sure as your born...the lovliest of all was the UNI-corn lalalalalalalalalalala:lol: (did you notice what the little guy waving the ensign (flag) is called....you ready? The SOS! (as in "song of S":-)))

kathryn
12-11-2011, 08:50 AM
Oh my! Rrrrrrrr-onald MacDonald!!! A fine Scottish name for a Laddie! D' ye think his outfit might be prophesying a wee somethin' as well? The red , ruddy hair, the big red lips...the stripes on his arms...and those exceptionally large ruby slippers..er ...shoes! Is it possible he's from EDENburg too...?:hysterical:

And that quarter ed pounder! Could be the Tree that was drawn and quartered...? The et Kol of all of Creation that was spread over the 4 corners of the earth ?...until the BIG MAC comes through? Ah....those foolish foolish little things that confound the wise! lalalalalaI've been a FOOL for YOUlalalalalal:confused2::hug::hysterical:

kathryn
12-11-2011, 04:33 PM
Bob...it just dawned on me....those balloons are a festive trapping of AIR within various colors (Joseph's many colored coat). They are rather like big breasts...and isn't rubber made with silcone? Me thinks the "prince of the power of the AIR" has lost some of his wind. :lol: What were you putting together with them?

PS...did you notice that the "feast" of Pharaoh takes place on his birthday?(have to check that...but I know it was either Pharoah...or maybe it says the King)

kathryn
12-11-2011, 04:58 PM
Yup! Here it is! :

Gen 40:20 And it came to pass the third day, which was Pharaoh's birthday, that he made a feast unto all his servants: and he lifted up the head of the chief butler and of the chief baker among his servants.

Looks those were a few "birthday balloons/breasts/heads" !

kathryn
12-11-2011, 05:01 PM
And...I've never noticed this before with the "birthday" theme! Look at the NT type...the "head" of J the B...or the "Elijah" type that must be be-headed in order to move into the double anointing of the Elisha (twins):

Mat 14:6 But when Herod's birthday was kept, the daughter of Herodias danced before them, and pleased Herod.

kathryn
12-11-2011, 05:13 PM
Oh my! You must look at the numerical weight for "birthday" ! (the early Greeks used the word to describe the funeral of a "departed friend" (chop chop chop! ):lol:

It is 274...the DOUBLE WITNESS OF 137!

http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_137.asp

Here's the link to the verse :
http://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_Database.asp?bnum=40&cnum=14&vnum=6

note the meaning of "danced"!

kathryn
12-11-2011, 05:19 PM
In particular...note:

Isaiah 65.16

The prime Number 137 is the sum of the elements of the Holographic Generating Set (27, 37, 73). It appears as a structural prime in both the Divine Prologue and the Logos Holograph. It is profoundly integrated with the Fine Structure Constant that governs the interaction between Light and Matter.

Bob May
12-11-2011, 06:24 PM
Bob...it just dawned on me....those balloons are a festive trapping of AIR within various colors (Joseph's many colored coat). They are rather like big breasts...and isn't rubber made with silcone? Me thinks the "prince of the power of the AIR" has lost some of his wind. :lol: What were you putting together with them?

PS...did you notice that the "feast" of Pharaoh takes place on his birthday?(have to check that...but I know it was either Pharoah...or maybe it says the King)

We make balloon sculptures hats, animals, swords, even a bow and arrow once this weekend.

Bob May
12-11-2011, 06:33 PM
Oh my! You must look at the numerical weight for "birthday" ! (the early Greeks used the word to describe the funeral of a "departed friend" (chop chop chop! ):lol:

It is 274...the DOUBLE WITNESS OF 137!

http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_137.asp

Here's the link to the verse :
http://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_Database.asp?bnum=40&cnum=14&vnum=6

note the meaning of "danced"!

Yes, the whole beheading thing is important. Daath the abyss. The fish (whale jumping out of water.)
It is the passing from one way of percieving reality to a completely different way of percieving reality. like jumping across or off of an abyss.
John the Baptist, Paul and James all died by the sword,...Beheading.
Also in Revelations it seems to say that those people are the only ones to "make it" to be included in the first resurrection.

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

We are the body of Christ. We only have One Head between us all. We are but members in his body.
To come to believe and take his doctrine as our own is to only have one head,...And it is not ours!!!

Ours is gone!!

Bob

debz
12-11-2011, 09:12 PM
Hey all...I just started a new thread that is also highly related to this thread:

"Tim Tebow Prophetic"

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2685-Tim-Tebow-Prophetic

:)

Bob May
12-12-2011, 07:38 AM
Oh my! You must look at the numerical weight for "birthday" ! (the early Greeks used the word to describe the funeral of a "departed friend" (chop chop chop! ):lol:

It is 274...the DOUBLE WITNESS OF 137!

http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_137.asp

Here's the link to the verse :
http://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_Database.asp?bnum=40&cnum=14&vnum=6

note the meaning of "danced"!

And the 3 splits the 17th birthday of Joseph.
This is the beginning of something. A new birth into the knidom of heaven. The realization of our sonship=inheritance,

Mt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Mt 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Mt 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Leaven = Doctrine.

Why hide leaven 3 between the 1 and 7 or in the midst of the 17??
Because the leaven of the kingdom of heaven is hid inside of us until the WHOLE is Leavened.
The kingdom of heaven is the doctrine of Christ which is not the doctrine that we hold until the whole is leavened. And that leveaning comes in three stages over time.
Joseph was not revealed as "King" over Egypt until 13 years later. Unity, One, at the reunion of the brothers and Jacob.
The Kingdom of Heaven grows inside of us in obscurity. Like leaven...Doctrine, the doctrine of Christ becomes our Doctrine.

The Pharisees did not go into the kingdom nor let anyone going in to go in.
The Saducees the same because they did not believe in the Resurrection.
Both apply to this life while still in the body. The flesh.

"Better the day of your death than the day of your birth."
It is our doctrine, our world view that keeps us from seeing the Kingdom of heaven all around us IN This Life.

debz
12-12-2011, 09:22 AM
And the 3 splits the 17th birthday of Joseph.
This is the beginning of something. A new birth into the knidom of heaven. The realization of our sonship=inheritance,

Mt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Mt 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Mt 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Leaven = Doctrine.

Why hide leaven 3 between the 1 and 7 or in the midst of the 17??
Because the leaven of the kingdom of heaven is hid inside of us until the WHOLE is Leavened.
The kingdom of heaven is the doctrine of Christ which is not the doctrine that we hold until the whole is leavened. And that leveaning comes in three stages over time.
Joseph was not revealed as "King" over Egypt until 13 years later. Unity, One, at the reunion of the brothers and Jacob.
The Kingdom of Heaven grows inside of us in obscurity. Like leaven...Doctrine, the doctrine of Christ becomes our Doctrine.

The Pharisees did not go into the kingdom nor let anyone going in to go in.
The Saducees the same because they did not believe in the Resurrection.
Both apply to this life while still in the body. The flesh.

"Better the day of your death than the day of your birth."
It is our doctrine, our world view that keeps us from seeing the Kingdom of heaven all around us IN This Life.

:congrats: Another good word, Bob! It is all through the Bible, in so many ways...and yes, applies to THIS LIFE, while still in the body~!

Bob May
12-12-2011, 10:14 AM
Doctrine is Female.

It is the enfolding of all of the elements making up the whole of our beliefs.
It is the Leaven that changes the entire lump.

Look at some of the words that add up to 137 and look at the stories related there.

Onan is there again.
Ge 38:8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.

Ge 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice 137; (Qowl) for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Qowl is another key (Qoph) word here. "Back of the head" where the third view 3-D is interpreted.
Where our view of reality is interpreted.

Both Sarah and Tamar are instrumental in keeping us on the path that leads us to Jesus' viewpoint, his doctrine and his interpretation of Reality. The scarlet thread. Jesus came from the tribe of Judah (Praise) who did raise up seed to our brother Jesus or (Er awakening.)


Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

Mt 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. But we get side tracked with the commandments of men. Another doctrine.
The leaven of the Pharisees and Saducees.


Another 137 word is flood.

Ex 15:8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
The congealing in the midst of the sea, is another demonstration of the female principle. The taking of what we know and turning it into a whole thing. Understanding rather than Wisdom.

Rose
12-12-2011, 10:20 AM
It is our doctrine, our world view that keeps us from seeing the Kingdom of heaven all around us IN This Life.

You are so right...:thumb: Until we can bust out of the "doctrinal box" through which we perceive the world, our lives will remain in a state of stagnation. As the old adage goes...Free your mind and your ass will follow. :lol:

All the best,
Rose

Bob May
12-12-2011, 10:26 AM
Joseph dissappears from the scene.
He reappears and Jacob's name changes to Israel again.

Ge 45:27 And they told him all the words of Joseph, which he had said unto them: and when he saw the wagons which Joseph had sent to carry him, the spirit of Jacob their father revived:
Ge 45:28 And Israel said, It is enough; Joseph my son is yet alive: I will go and see him before I die

We have been having "wagon loads" of things happening here (synchronicities). And the words that Jesus is saying tell us that Joseph/Jesus is still alive but In Us.

Joseph dissappears from the Bible after Genesis and appears again as Jesus Foster Father. Then Jesus appears on the scene.

Joseph dissappears from the Bible again and re appears in the book of Revelations as an integral piece/part of the new Jerusalem.

Why does he dissappear?
That is the Leaven of the Kingdom of Heaven working it's way through the entire lump.
Till the whole was leavened,...Then it is the Kingdom of Heaven we are living in.

Mr 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
Mr 4:27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.

Bob

Bob May
12-12-2011, 10:32 AM
You are so right...:thumb: Until we can bust out of the "doctrinal box" through which we perceive the world, our lives will remain in a state of stagnation. As the old adage goes...Free your mind and your ass will follow. :lol:

All the best,
Rose

Hi Rose,
Good to see you joined this discussion.
And if your ass won't be redeemed break his neck!!
Again the idea of crossing an abyss.
I wondered if you and Richard have watched the Man of La Mancha yet.
My son, wife and I finished watching it last night.
What a great play. I am going to have to get a copy of Don Quixote and read it again. I seem to have lost it and haven't read it in years.

Bob

kathryn
12-12-2011, 10:38 AM
You are so right...:thumb: Until we can bust out of the "doctrinal box" through which we perceive the world, our lives will remain in a state of stagnation. As the old adage goes...Free your mind and your ass will follow. :lol:

All the best,
Rose

:hysterical: which is why, of course...we are the ASShole and the DUMB "o" before we bust out! (and more on that "BUSTing" Out(as in Dolly- PART on's magnificent silcone " knockers") on the Duet. 29:29 thread!)http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2680-Deuteronomy-29-29&p=39123#post39123:sunny:

debz
12-12-2011, 12:38 PM
You are so right...:thumb: Until we can bust out of the "doctrinal box" through which we perceive the world, our lives will remain in a state of stagnation. As the old adage goes...Free your mind and your ass will follow. :lol:

All the best,
Rose

Rose,

Yes! It is the process of moving out of the "Outer Court" (only knowing God from principles/doctrines of men) and into the Holy Place ("seeing," but still "through a glass darkly"), and eventually into the "Most Holy Place." When we can "see" that we are to be in the "Most Holy Place" ultimately, then we know where we're going...our "face" is there...now all we have to do is get our butt where our face is!

Deb

kathryn
12-12-2011, 12:46 PM
Rose,

Yes! It is the process of moving out of the "Outer Court" (only knowing God from principles/doctrines of men) and into the Holy Place ("seeing," but still "through a glass darkly"), and eventually into the "Most Holy Place." When we can "see" that we are to be in the "Most Holy Place" ultimately, then we know where we're going...our "face" is there...now all we have to do is get our butt where our face is!

Deb

This concept was wonderfully and succinctly illustrated in the "Lil Red Riding Hood" song/video on the Deuteronomy 29:29 thread. The porcupine waves his lil butt at the Adam type..and throws out his quills. In the end..the big BAAAd wolf has his "head" entrapped in Little Red's undies...and gets "hung up" on the clothes line. (heh..the thread of redemption...the scarlet thread):hysterical::lmbo::lmbo::lmbo:

Of course...she then uncovers his disguise as Grandma! (IN Grandma's "bed"...the dry bed of the Jordan crossing...and the "bed" on which the "son" is raised by Elisha in 2nd Kings)

Rose
12-12-2011, 05:11 PM
Hi Rose,
Good to see you joined this discussion.
And if your ass won't be redeemed break his neck!!
Again the idea of crossing an abyss.
I wondered if you and Richard have watched the Man of La Mancha yet.
My son, wife and I finished watching it last night.
What a great play. I am going to have to get a copy of Don Quixote and read it again. I seem to have lost it and haven't read it in years.

Bob
Hi Bob,

We didn't get a chance to watch Man of La Mancha before Richard left on his "trip" (double entendre intended :winking0071:), but we plan on watching it when he gets back.

Rose

Richard Amiel McGough
12-14-2011, 11:12 AM
Hey there Bob (and the rest or our friends exploring this topic)! :yo:

It's been a week since I've even looked at this thread, cuz I've been busy doing what we're talking about! :winking0071:



Ex 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

We are talking about Joseph experiences here. He was a dreamer and an interpreter of Dreams. "Brothers" get real pissed when you start talking about these personal spiritual experiences.

Yes, and even here amongst friends with so much in common, we sometimes get lost in similiar squabbles. We all need to do our best to hear each other and give lot's of space and grace. And yet, it is really important to me that we don't obscure the significance of the dreams and visions with too much extraneous "noise" of "random" associations. It's a pretty big challenge. We need to clear away the "clutter" to expose the coherent vision.



Yes, a threat not only to their religious views. Joseph is a turning point. Your dreams are no longer just relating subconscious elements within your own mind here. "Blessings of the deep"
They are relating happenings in outer world circumstances and waking consciousness and eternal principles to your dreams.
That is scary!!! Most people will absolutely not cross that line. And you will see them get completely irrational defending that line.
All the while this is happening they are unknowingly by their actions and words CONFIRMING what you are saying.
When both Pilate and Caiaphas asked Jesus if he was the king of the Jews or son of God, he said "Thou sayest it." He was watching them play out the old testament prophecies before his eyes. Playing their part to the letter. They were confirming that he was the Son of God.
Same thing happens to us as happened to him. We are surrounded by people that are telling us we are sons of God.

Beautifully stated my friend.

Yes, it is "scary" - it rocks the soul down to its root. You know you are sane, but you have good reason to wonder. I think that's one of the reasons I'm so insistent on discerning between "private" vs. "objective" spiritual insights. I don't want to get lost in my own private fantasy world, and we are treading on the edges of that.

And yes - we are all "children of God - truly eternal Divine Beings of unspeakable glory hidden under the veil of flesh. When I look at and through another's eyes I percevie the wonderous Diamond Soul that is a pure expression of God.




I hadn't thought of any connection between the "bo" in Dumbo and the "bow" of promise. But now that you mention it, I see an obvious connection.
That is why I mentioned it again. I didn't think you had caught it. Blood Covenant. Dum Bo!!!
I am glad you added the God blessed Noah verses below. I had forgotten it was so long. There is a lot there.

Re-evaluating the sybolism with the idea in mind that we are now experiencing the fulfillment of those promises to us. And that God is speaking through those symbols.


Yep! The image of blood needs to be transfigured so we can see it as the Divine Life Source.



Jesus said that he had meat to eat that his disciples "knew not of."
And "everything that liveth" is everything!!! Because it has had the sprinkling that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Everything that liveth is the entire Liviing Universe! I know, because have seen it.

Before I had this sight, I didn't understand when people seemed to replace "God" with the "Universe" because I thought the Universe was nothing but dead matter (atoms, stars, planets, galaxies). Now I have seen the Living Mind that manifests the entire Universe and understand that "matter" is just a cold aspect of the blazing conflagration that is as the heart of Reality.



We are to cease and desist interpreting our surroundings according to the outward appearances. (Flesh)
And keep interpreting them according to the Promise. Christ in you, the hope of Glory.
Noah went through the flood (Baptism) and landed on a mountain top. A higher state of consciousness that he previously did not know existed.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Preach it brother! :prophet:

Scripture is transfigured like Christ on the mount when we view it with eyes with faith to see the Living Universe. And why faith? Because faith does not mean "belief" in concepts, but rather intent of heart to be true to the continuous revelation of Ultimate Reality in every moment.



Yes, the world is speaking directly to us. It has had the blood of Jesus sprinkled upon it. God made a covenant not only with us but "Every Living Creature that is with us in the Ark." Which is IN CHRIST!!
And that is EVERYTHING. Everything is crying out Dumbo,...Blood Covenant!!!
The blood makes an At One Ment for the soul.
The Spiritual experience of Tipareth is Vision of the Harmony of Things. Christ Consciousness!!! We become aware that we are in him and he is in us and permeates everything.
And we begin to hear his voice in all things even a dream about Dumbo.

This is how we are to interpret all of Reality from then on. We have a Joseph experience and everything changes.
Incidentally, I just found out that one of the symbols for Tipareth is the Lamen. A lamen is the sybol worn upon the breast of a magician to show that the magician symbolizes that particular force when working ceremonial magic. The angel on the Temperance card is wearing an orange triangle upon his/her breast.
This is fire. It is also Shin the symbol of the three supernals.
So the beginning of the baptism of air (Pentecost, Joseph, God speaking through dreams, visions etc.)
Contains the Baptism of Fire within it.
We recieve the influences (Grace) of the Godhead through the sephirah of Tipareth. Whether water, Air or fire, Baptism, which is one, contains the Fire which Jesus said he came to start and which he said was already kindled.

Wow - this is actively blowing my mind right now as I type! I am answering your post line by line in the comment editor. I did not read it before I began answering. And look at the words I wrote above - I said exactly what you wrote before I read it!




it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
the text is very much full of echoing sounds - dam ha-adam ba-adam damo - all wrapped up in Dumbo
Very cool. And I see the earth is "in on it" with God.

I had not really meditated on that yet. DUMBO <=> BADAMAH (In the earth) <=> BADAM (In Adam) and the first man Adam was "of the earth."



Which I take as the realization of sonship. Realizing that we are fellow heirs with Christ. It took me a while to come to this conclusion, but I believe we will find that to be the case if we follow the 17 throughout scripture. Bow, Circle, fish, overcome, Garment are some listed in your database.

I had a dream that revealed a lot about the meaning of the Number 17. I came to a door with the Number 17 on it. I went in, there was a book. I opened it and there was a picture of a goat standing on the side of a mountain. Then my penis became erect and extended along the entire spine of the book. When I woke up, I looked up "goat" in Hebrew (which was my practice at that time. I was just learning Hebrew) and found goat = GDY = 17, and that GYD (translated as the "sinew" that shrank in Gen 32:32) also can mean "penis." I had many dreams like this between 1990-1993 or so. The goat was pretty much like the one in this pic, only more of a side view. When I get home I'll review the dream - I think I forgot a few details

227





Of course, Yoseph is spelt Yod Vav Samek Peh.
On the morning I had my Dumbo Dream I noted that 528 = 3 x 11 x 16 and this corresonds to the three horizontal beams on the tree of life:

3 = III = Empress Card (Dalet)
11 = XI = Strength (Tet)
16 = XVI = Tower Card (Pey)

In the diagram I drew that morning I called the 11th card "Lust" because that was the name of the Strength Card in Crowley's deck which I was using at that time:

So it seems you are picking up on the same archetypal structure that I tapped into the morning of that dream.
Very good find with the cross paths numbers matching up with the dates.

Another application of speaking in other tongues. Another language and replenishing the earth.
Very cool stuff here. This is the way it is supposed to work. This would also relat to the three doors/veils in the Tabernacle.
I believe what were seeing here is the door to the Holy Place.
The Baptism of air.

It wasn't the dates, it was the grouped prime factors of 12 x 44 = 528 = 3 x 11 x 16. But then again, the dates connect because 11/24 & 12/22 => 11 x 24 + 12 x 22 = 528.

Bob May
12-14-2011, 11:08 PM
Hey there Bob (and the rest or our friends exploring this topic)! :yo:

It's been a week since I've even looked at this thread, cuz I've been busy doing what we're talking about! :winking0071:


Good to have you back Richard.



Yes, and even here amongst friends with so much in common, we sometimes get lost in similiar squabbles. We all need to do our best to hear each other and give lot's of space and grace. And yet, it is really important to me that we don't obscure the significance of the dreams and visions with too much extraneous "noise" of "random" associations. It's a pretty big challenge. We need to clear away the "clutter" to expose the coherent vision.


Much of what we are talking about here can have personal significance because God speaks to each of us.
I am more trying to look at the patterns in order to see a sequence and order to all of this.
There may not be a sequence, exactly, because things seem to happen all at once.
What I take to be the coherent vision in this the illumination of Yesod from above rather than below.
The astral light can be a deceptive thing. But when measured against promises in scripture we begin to see a pattern develop.

Originally Posted by Bob May
Yes, a threat not only to their religious views. Joseph is a turning point. Your dreams are no longer just relating subconscious elements within your own mind here. "Blessings of the deep"
They are relating happenings in outer world circumstances and waking consciousness and eternal principles to your dreams.
That is scary!!! Most people will absolutely not cross that line. And you will see them get completely irrational defending that line.
All the while this is happening they are unknowingly by their actions and words CONFIRMING what you are saying.
When both Pilate and Caiaphas asked Jesus if he was the king of the Jews or son of God, he said "Thou sayest it." He was watching them play out the old testament prophecies before his eyes. Playing their part to the letter. They were confirming that he was the Son of God.
Same thing happens to us as happened to him. We are surrounded by people that are telling us we are sons of God.



Yes, it is "scary" - it rocks the soul down to its root. You know you are sane, but you have good reason to wonder. I think that's one of the reasons I'm so insistent on discerning between "private" vs. "objective" spiritual insights. I don't want to get lost in my own private fantasy world, and we are treading on the edges of that.


Oh, we are way past the edge here!!!:lol:
But that is the point, isn't it? Skirting the edge of insanity. But which side of the line do you think the sane are on?
Livng to eat and drink and make babies and die.... That's what they were doing when the flood came.
I'd rather be dipping my toe in the water now to see how cold it is.





Everything that liveth is the entire Liviing Universe! I know, because have seen it.

Before I had this sight, I didn't understand when people seemed to replace "God" with the "Universe" because I thought the Universe was nothing but dead matter (atoms, stars, planets, galaxies). Now I have seen the Living Mind that manifests the entire Universe and understand that "matter" is just a cold aspect of the blazing conflagration that is as the heart of Reality.


Just don't forget the Samaritan woman.

Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.





Wow - this is actively blowing my mind right now as I type! I am answering your post line by line in the comment editor. I did not read it before I began answering. And look at the words I wrote above - I said exactly what you wrote before I read it!


Welcome back to the flood!






I had a dream that revealed a lot about the meaning of the Number 17. I came to a door with the Number 17 on it. I went in, there was a book. I opened it and there was a picture of a goat standing on the side of a mountain. Then my penis became erect and extended along the entire spine of the book. When I woke up....


Don't you hate it when you wake up just when you get to the good part?:lol:
Seriously though, an erection extended the length of the spine?? You didn't catch that?
You have to catch up on the Matthew 17 thread and the interpretation of Reality thread.




When I woke up, I looked up "goat" in Hebrew (which was my practice at that time. I was just learning Hebrew) and found goat = GDY = 17, and that GYD (translated as the "sinew" that shrank in Gen 32:32) also can mean "penis." I had many dreams like this between 1990-1993 or so. The goat was pretty much like the one in this pic, only more of a side view. When I get home I'll review the dream - I think I forgot a few details


The sinew that shrank is the first time I found myself in scripture. I explained that a while back, but basically it was the line that said Jacob halted on his thigh. There is a major nerve running down the hollow (inside of the thigh) that would not relax when I sat down to meditate. It actually felt like it was too short.
It was a very aggravating feeling and I (halted) stopped meditating for a few years because of it.
That fits because what Jacob saw, Joseph wore on his 17th birthday.
The goat thing is very interesting also. I will keep it in mind.

227





It wasn't the dates, it was the grouped prime factors of 12 x 44 = 528 = 3 x 11 x 16. But then again, the dates connect because 11/24 & 12/22 => 11 x 24 + 12 x 22 = 528.

[/QUOTE]
Sorry, overwhelmed with details. But it is still very significant.

My teacher used the analogy of a wiring diagram to the tree of life. It shows relationships. But it doesn't really look like that. If you look at the wiring diagram in a radio for instance and then look inside the radio it does not match the picture.
But we could cross all three of those paths in an instant if we didn't hold on to things so desparately, I think. We all lean on way or another and tend to operate in one triangle or another.
Staying balanced is the trick. The middle pillar.

When we hit a cross path 3, 11, 16....
Wait a minute. 11 is not a cross path, 8 is Strength. 11 is Justice.
My mistake. Like I said overwhelmed with details lately.

Have a great night,
Bob

Richard Amiel McGough
12-15-2011, 12:50 AM
Good to have you back Richard.

It's good to be back! And tomorrow, I'll be back in Yakima so I can hug my wife again and look into her eyes. :woohoo:



Much of what we are talking about here can have personal significance because God speaks to each of us.
I am more trying to look at the patterns in order to see a sequence and order to all of this.
There may not be a sequence, exactly, because things seem to happen all at once.
What I take to be the coherent vision in this the illumination of Yesod from above rather than below.
The astral light can be a deceptive thing. But when measured against promises in scripture we begin to see a pattern develop.

Hummm ... I've never thought about the direction of the illumination of the Sephiroth. But then again, I haven't seriously thought about the Tree of Life for nearly two decades. (Man! How time flies when you're sleeping!) I glanced at your reference to the "spine" in the other threads and remember talk about the light circulutating in the Tree like in the chakras. Are you thinking of it coming from the Crown down to Malkuth and back up so Yesod gets lit from both directions?

What kind of "deception" to you associate with the "astral light?"



Oh, we are way past the edge here!!!:lol:
But that is the point, isn't it? Skirting the edge of insanity. But which side of the line do you think the sane are on?
Livng to eat and drink and make babies and die.... That's what they were doing when the flood came.
I'd rather be dipping my toe in the water now to see how cold it is.

Sanity is not well defined, so if you try to adhere to it you will surely go insane. :p

The sane are described well by this Dilbert strip:

228

As for testing the water - I prefer to just dive in.



Just don't forget the Samaritan woman.

Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

What precisely should I not forget? That she was not condemned for having five men? Or that Christ promised a fountain of living water? Or ... ?



Welcome back to the flood!

It's good to be wet again.



Seriously though, an erection extended the length of the spine?? You didn't catch that?
You have to catch up on the Matthew 17 thread and the interpretation of Reality thread.

I haven't been following those two threads for most of the last week. I wasn't even following this one!

So I searched for "spine" in recent posts and found your mention of the kundalini. Very cool! I hadn't made that connection. Now it's totally obvious, especially with the sexaul energy connection. Thanks!

Now I'll have to go see what else you folks have been up to over there .... I know you've been busy ...



My teacher used the analogy of a wiring diagram to the tree of life. It shows relationships. But it doesn't really look like that. If you look at the wiring diagram in a radio for instance and then look inside the radio it does not match the picture.
But we could cross all three of those paths in an instant if we didn't hold on to things so desparately, I think. We all lean on way or another and tend to operate in one triangle or another.
Staying balanced is the trick. The middle pillar.

Totally agree. Balance is THE key. Any deviation from the center of the Yin/Yang and you go flying off into dualistic thinking with ten thousand things moving in every direction. Very confusing.



When we hit a cross path 3, 11, 16....
Wait a minute. 11 is not a cross path, 8 is Strength. 11 is Justice.
My mistake. Like I said overwhelmed with details lately.

No mistake - Crowley interchanged the numbers on cards IX and XI, following a different tradition than the Rider Waite deck. If I had been using that deck I would not have seen the connection with the three cross bars. And neither would I have seen the connection with the Hierophant card since only Crowley's deck had the elephants on it. So it's very wierd, but Crowley's deck seems to have been particularly well-designed to fit with my Dumbo Dream - or vice-versa.



Have a great night,
Bob
That's what I'm doing!

Great chatting,

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
12-15-2011, 01:35 AM
I spent the day wandering through the streets of San Francisco looking for Dumbo. I went to visit some in-laws today, and I wanted a stuffed animal to give to their six month old baby Nirvaan. I couldn't find Dumbo in any of the toy stores. I even went to the Disney Store and they were all sold out of Dumbos. But along the way I encountered some street venders who wind and weave names with thread on bracelets, and I asked if they could make one for me. I finally found Dumbo! I'm me.

229

Oh, and on April 17, 2008, the jazz group The Sound of Splendor produced a song called Looking for Dumbo (http://www.myspace.com/thesplendorthesplendor/music/songs/looking-for-dumbo-34007577).

kathryn
12-15-2011, 07:11 AM
When the tongue is tamed, the whole Body follows.

When the Serpent swallows its tail...the "integrated circuit"..(the "o" )..has completed...the High Priest, as the tongue, emerges from the PEY...the 17 mouth.

The High Priest in typology is symbolized by the erect penis. (he had to remain standing or erect in the Holy of Holies...virgin subconscious mind. ) He had to be circumcised and have his penis and stones (testes...TESTIMONY) examined before entering "her". An erect penis is fully engorged/infused with blood. It is a picture of the UPRIGHT in heart.

It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man...but what comes out of the mouth, proceeding from the heart(the UNcircumcised penis or "high priest"/old man...that defiles us. The circumcised Heart is the High Priest who enters the Virgin Bride. When they have consummated...they become the signet ring of God...the two bracelets of Gold, given to Rebekah at her betrothal. The signet ring and bracelets are the integrated "0" or circuit...through which God places His Hand.

Jesus was our High Priest. When He walked on the water of the Circuit (Galilee)....He was the Ark (tongue) on the waters, between the divided firmament. (roof and floor of the waters of the mouth)
He was the Word made Flesh....coming through the division of the waters. He was the HEAD as High Priest...entering the circuit...the "o" or mouth from the INSIDE...or the Heart of the Bride. It pictured the Word made Flesh coming forth from the divide (upper waters from lower waters). The circumcised High Priest/Penis, when consummated with the Virgin Bride ....bring the TESTIMONY of the consummation....the Law consummated with Grace....the TWIN TESTES/TABLETS OF STONE MADE FLESH (on the tablets of the Heart). This is the perfected double witness or integrated circuit that has RETURNED to the source of Power.

Bob..you spoke of the erection as moving between the 33 verebrae of the spine. This is another picture of the High Priest moving from the base of the spine, up and through the mouth. What was the "tail" is now the tongue....the Lamed.

We are mute(dumb)..unable to "speak" Life until this circuit "0" has been integrated(consummated) between the circumcised heart and subconcious.


We must eat/consume, the "hidden" manna first. (the white seed that comes from Heaven..from the TESTES..the TESTIMONY ) before we can bring forth the Fruit of the Tree of Life which grows on BOTH sides of the River, from the MIDST of the consummated circuit..."0" or Galilee.

The circuit becomes the "8" when it is twisted or TURNED in the midst, where the disciples were translated from the midway point of the Galilee. The Ark or "tongue" stood in the midst of the Jordan. The 12 , after crossing over,TURNED and went BACK into the midst, to pick up and bring out the 12 stones...or the tamed LAMED(12)...the Tongue...as the Word made Flesh in the midst of the "waters".
The "0" of the sea or circuit...is TURNED in the middle to become the "8"...or NEW beginning. (Rebekah's doubled gold bracelet)

Bob May
12-15-2011, 07:23 AM
It's good to be back! And tomorrow, I'll be back in Yakima so I can hug my wife again and look into her eyes. :woohoo:

Hummm ... I've never thought about the direction of the illumination of the Sephiroth. But then again, I haven't seriously thought about the Tree of Life for nearly two decades. (Man! How time flies when you're sleeping!) I glanced at your reference to the "spine" in the other threads and remember talk about the light circulutating in the Tree like in the chakras. Are you thinking of it coming from the Crown down to Malkuth and back up so Yesod gets lit from both directions?


Joseph is a dreamer and an interpreter of dreams. 17 is a key number in this whole dreaming thing.
Joseph's statements, that the "Interpretations belong to God" and "It is not in me, God will interpret the dream..", reveal his interpretation of Reality.
His marriage to the daughter of the priest of the sun, (moon?) Asenath, Neith, Net
Bolsters this idea of Tipareth illuminating Yesod.
But we don't need that.
Moses blessing says the same things.
De 33:13 And of Joseph he said, Blessed of the LORD be his land, for the precious things of heaven, for the dew, and for the deep that coucheth beneath,
De 33:14 And for the precious fruits brought forth by the sun, and for the precious things put forth by the moon,
The interpretation of the storehouse of images of Yesod when not illuminated by the sun (Tipareth) can be chaotic.



What kind of "deception" to you associate with the "astral light?"


You already partially answered your own question below.



Totally agree. Balance is THE key. Any deviation from the center of the Yin/Yang and you go flying off into dualistic thinking with ten thousand things moving in every direction. Very confusing.


So, you could look at the "center of Yin.Yang as the Joseph awareness. The center of the Tree of Life, Tipareth.
For me the vision/experience of the Coat of Many Colors was the beginning of the Realisation that I am a son of God, just like the bible tells me. But whether dream or vision or stopping the world, it is Joseph's realm of activity, so he is a good place to look for answers in this.
But, Joseph went through some crap to get to the reunion of the brothers so we look at his life and see ours. And if we are to arrive at that unity, at least we know what to expect and not be suprized when some of the same stuff happens to us.




As for testing the water - I prefer to just dive in.


I was joking about the dipping of the toe. I have dived in many times. First time was in 1975.
I have spent the time since diving in and then reassessing each time. I have chosen the Bible, Tarot and Qabalah (In a word Jesus) to guide me through the maze. He is the Ark that gets us through to higher ground. He is the balance and the center of the Yin/Yang.



What precisely should I not forget? That she was not condemned for having five men? Or that Christ promised a fountain of living water? Or ... ?


What was most important to me when I stopped the world and was living for months in that confusion was where are the constant messages coming from.
So, one day the line,.."I that speak to you am he," spoke directly to me.
It might not mean as much to you, but there are many promises that say, basically the same thing.




It's good to be wet again.


For me, it is better every time. But I wouldn't change even the negative experiences I've had. It's all good.
It's all part of the journey.



I haven't been following those two threads for most of the last week. I wasn't even following this one!

So I searched for "spine" in recent posts and found your mention of the kundalini. Very cool! I hadn't made that connection. Now it's totally obvious, especially with the sexaul energy connection. Thanks!


Yes, sexual energy is probably the most potent force in our physical body. And it has everything to do with the Middle Pillar. Which is our spine in the body.
God asked Moses what was in his hand (under his control) sometimes it was a snake and sometimes a rod.
And many victories were performed because of this snake/rod. And many signs and wonders.



No mistake - Crowley interchanged the numbers on cards IX and XI, following a different tradition than the Rider Waite deck. If I had been using that deck I would not have seen the connection with the three cross bars. And neither would I have seen the connection with the Hierophant card since only Crowley's deck had the elephants on it. So it's very wierd, but Crowley's deck seems to have been particularly well-designed to fit with my Dumbo Dream - or vice-versa.


I use the Waite deck and the layout of the cards on the tree of the Golden Dawn.
http://alleeshadowtradition.com/pdf/mystical_qabala.pdf

But god can use whatever language we can understand at the time he wants to speak to us.

Happy reunion to you and Rose!

Bob

kathryn
12-15-2011, 08:52 AM
When the tongue is tamed, the whole Body follows.

When the Serpent swallows its tail...the "integrated circuit"..(the "o" )..has completed...the High Priest, as the tongue, emerges from the PEY...the 17 mouth.

The High Priest in typology is symbolized by the erect penis. (he had to remain standing or erect in the Holy of Holies...virgin subconscious mind. ) He had to be circumcised and have his penis and stones (testes...TESTIMONY) examined before entering "her". An erect penis is fully engorged/infused with blood. It is a picture of the UPRIGHT in heart.

It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man...but what comes out of the mouth, proceeding from the heart(the UNcircumcised penis or "high priest"/old man...that defiles us. The circumcised Heart is the High Priest who enters the Virgin Bride. When they have consummated...they become the signet ring of God...the two bracelets of Gold, given to Rebekah at her betrothal. The signet ring and bracelets are the integrated "0" or circuit...through which God places His Hand.

Jesus was our High Priest. When He walked on the water of the Circuit (Galilee)....He was the Ark (tongue) on the waters, between the divided firmament. (roof and floor of the waters of the mouth)
He was the Word made Flesh....coming through the division of the waters. He was the HEAD as High Priest...entering the circuit...the "o" or mouth from the INSIDE...or the Heart of the Bride. It pictured the Word made Flesh coming forth from the divide (upper waters from lower waters). The circumcised High Priest/Penis, when consummated with the Virgin Bride ....bring the TESTIMONY of the consummation....the Law consummated with Grace....the TWIN TESTES/TABLETS OF STONE MADE FLESH (on the tablets of the Heart). This is the perfected double witness or integrated circuit that has RETURNED to the source of Power.

Bob..you spoke of the erection as moving between the 33 verebrae of the spine. This is another picture of the High Priest moving from the base of the spine, up and through the mouth. What was the "tail" is now the tongue....the Lamed.

We are mute(dumb)..unable to "speak" Life until this circuit "0" has been integrated(consummated) between the circumcised heart and subconcious.


We must eat/consume, the "hidden" manna first. (the white seed that comes from Heaven..from the TESTES..the TESTIMONY ) before we can bring forth the Fruit of the Tree of Life which grows on BOTH sides of the River, from the MIDST of the consummated circuit..."0" or Galilee.

The circuit becomes the "8" when it is twisted or TURNED in the midst, where the disciples were translated from the midway point of the Galilee. The Ark or "tongue" stood in the midst of the Jordan. The 12 , after crossing over,TURNED and went BACK into the midst, to pick up and bring out the 12 stones...or the tamed LAMED(12)...the Tongue...as the Word made Flesh in the midst of the "waters".
The "0" of the sea or circuit...is TURNED in the middle to become the "8"...or NEW beginning. (Rebekah's doubled gold bracelet)


2 Cor 3:14-18


Deb gave this in another thread: Take a look at Jonathan Mitchell’s Translation of this verse (best N.T. translation I’ve found; Koine Greek expert…):

'Yet whenever the time should be reached when it [= the heart] will twist and turn upon, so as to face toward, [the] Lord [= Christ], 'the head covering (veil) is by habit progressively taken from around [it]' (Note: a quote of Ex 34:34). Now the Lord [= Christ or Yahweh] continuously exists being the Spirit (or: Yet the Breath-effect is the Lord), so where [the] Lord’s Breath-effect (Spirit; Attitude) [blows there is] freedom (or: and so in the place in which the Breath-effect – the Spirit – which is [the] Lord [Christ or Yahweh] [blows], liberty [comes].

Now...with this "twisting" and "turning" concept..."face toward"...have another look at the description of the birth of the baby Elephant in Oz:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/taronga-zoos-baby-elephant-born-alive-despite-expert-predictions-he-died-in-the-womb/story-e6frf7l6-1225839031581

Bob May
12-15-2011, 10:10 AM
Hi Kathryn,


When the tongue is tamed, the whole Body follows.

When the Serpent swallows its tail...the "integrated circuit"..(the "o" )..has completed...the High Priest, as the tongue, emerges from the PEY...the 17 mouth.


I am not getting all of this, but there are some connections here that we can explore.
Peh is the mouth of God and a tongue which is a flame.

Jas 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!

Lu 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Lu 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
Lu 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

The baptism of fire comes down from above and turns and rises. It is the Serpent fire. That is in our bodies.
The bracelet is a "Token". Tokens are things that happen in the Physical plane to show us what is going on in the Spirit. Like the Rainbow.
This fire has already been kindled in the earth by Jesus words. It brings division because we come to see that some people will Bump there heads on the cross paths. And some will choose to go through. And we also see that at the feast of Tabernacles, this division.

Joh 7:40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
Joh 7:41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
Joh 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
Joh 7:43 So there was a division among the people because of him.
Joh 7:53 And every man went unto his own house.

Each man's house is his Doctrine. That which he surrounds himself with.
That which is illumined when the light/fire comes into the house. Beth.

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/01.gif

The Magician card is associated with Beth, House. Around his waist is a serpent biting his tail. On the table, ours "worldview" are the symbols that represent the 4 worlds. Sword, Coin, Staff and Cup. air earth fire and water.
In his hand is an upright wand with a letter Yod (Seed, Hand, Flame) on the top and bottom. This signifying the sublimation of sex energy.




The High Priest in typology is symbolized by the erect penis. (he had to remain standing or erect in the Holy of Holies...virgin subconscious mind. ) He had to be circumcised and have his penis and stones (testes...TESTIMONY) examined before entering "her". An erect penis is fully engorged/infused with blood. It is a picture of the UPRIGHT in heart.

It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man...but what comes out of the mouth, proceeding from the heart(the UNcircumcised penis or "high priest"/old man...that defiles us. The circumcised Heart is the High Priest who enters the Virgin Bride. When they have consummated...they become the signet ring of God...the two bracelets of Gold, given to Rebekah at her betrothal. The signet ring and bracelets are the integrated "0" or circuit...through which God places His Hand.


Ge 38:16 And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me?
Ge 38:17 And he said, I will send thee a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give me a pledge, till thou send it?
Ge 38:18 And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that is in thine hand. And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him.
This situation between Tamar (palm tree) and Judah (Praise) because onan refused to "raise seed to his brother."
Well, Judah ended up raising this seed and Tamar gave birth to Zera who had the Scarlet thread around his wrist.

One way or another God will "have his way" with us.
We either raise the seed up to our brother Er (aweakening)/(Christ) or God will. When we praise God. This is Joseph 's realization the interpretation is form God and belongs to God.
Being that Christ is our "Brother", again brings us to the conclusion that we are fellow heirs!!!



Jesus was our High Priest. When He walked on the water of the Circuit (Galilee)....He was the Ark (tongue) on the waters, between the divided firmament. (roof and floor of the waters of the mouth)
He was the Word made Flesh....coming through the division of the waters. He was the HEAD as High Priest...entering the circuit...the "o" or mouth from the INSIDE...or the Heart of the Bride. It pictured the Word made Flesh coming forth from the divide (upper waters from lower waters). The circumcised High Priest/Penis, when consummated with the Virgin Bride ....bring the TESTIMONY of the consummation....the Law consummated with Grace....the TWIN TESTES/TABLETS OF STONE MADE FLESH (on the tablets of the Heart). This is the perfected double witness or integrated circuit that has RETURNED to the source of Power.


A lot there. But weren't the tablets written on the front and on the backside?
Wouldn't that point to two uses for the testes and two viewpoints of Reality?
One thing that occured to me recently was that David, a man after God's own heart, and his men ate of the shewbread and were blameless. Even though it was reserved for Priests. That is the Holy Place. We are Priests so we partake.
But being that the veil is down and we are fellow heirs with Christ, all we have to do is look in the right direction and see the Ark. It is now in the Same Room as we are!!!



Bob..you spoke of the erection as moving between the 33 verebrae of the spine. This is another picture of the High Priest moving from the base of the spine, up and through the mouth. What was the "tail" is now the tongue....the Lamed.


It is the energy that is pulled up. The feeling. During meditations such as this It seems to be that the Heart center is the "Engine" so to speak, that is used to do the pulling while keeping the consciousness at the place of the skull or just above it in line with the spinal collumn.
It is all starting again because of these conversations.
At times I get orgasms in the heart or head, but during waking consciousness, not just during meditations.

I don't want to be crude here, but it gets to the point sometimes that I feel like I am hooked up to a milking machine. Like my spine is drinking what my testicles are producing. When it seems to have taken all I have to give it stops for a time and then starts up again, kind of like the thermostat telling the furnace to kick on and off.
Once this went on for about 3 days solid.
This also may have something to do with keeping the lights burning in the Holy place.



We are mute(dumb)..unable to "speak" Life until this circuit "0" has been integrated(consummated) between the circumcised heart and subconcious.


And deaf, I would add. Because the Peh is the mouth of God.



We must eat/consume, the "hidden" manna first. (the white seed that comes from Heaven..from the TESTES..the TESTIMONY ) before we can bring forth the Fruit of the Tree of Life which grows on BOTH sides of the River, from the MIDST of the consummated circuit..."0" or Galilee.

The circuit becomes the "8" when it is twisted or TURNED in the midst, where the disciples were translated from the midway point of the Galilee. The Ark or "tongue" stood in the midst of the Jordan. The 12 , after crossing over,TURNED and went BACK into the midst, to pick up and bring out the 12 stones...or the tamed LAMED(12)...the Tongue...as the Word made Flesh in the midst of the "waters".
The "0" of the sea or circuit...is TURNED in the middle to become the "8"...or NEW beginning. (Rebekah's doubled gold bracelet)

I don't see the ark as the tongue yet. Maybe you could back up and show me how you got there?
But the hidden manna might very well be the seed or sex energy.
It was called "what is it?"

By the way, we are supposed to offer sacrifices of Praise (Judah, the tribe from which Jesus, Christ Consciousness came) and thanksgiving. This also would be completing the circuit.
Worship becomes Adoration. All consumming.

Bob

Bob May
12-15-2011, 11:18 AM
Hi Kathryn,

A lot there. But weren't the tablets written on the front and on the backside?
Wouldn't that point to two uses for the testes and two viewpoints of Reality?
One thing that occured to me recently was that David, a man after God's own heart, and his men ate of the shewbread and were blameless. Even though it was reserved for Priests. That is the Holy Place. We are Priests so we partake.
But being that the veil is down and we are fellow heirs with Christ, all we have to do is look in the right direction and see the Ark. It is now in the Same Room as we are!!!

Bob

I just sat down and meditated and something occured to me.

Re 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
Re 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
Re 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
Re 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
Re 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Re 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. Re 10:8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.
Re 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. Re
10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

When we begin to see that the bible is all one revelation. All of it is telling us the same thing. We are children of God and Fellow heirs with Jesus Christ, It becomes a very little book indeed.
It is bitter to our belly because we cannot communicate what seems so obvious to those we love.
Yet it is sweet in our mouth because we are seeing it all happen and the entire universe speaking it to us.
So, Yes!, all we have to do is look in the right direction if we have truely entrered the Holy Place.
We are in the same room as the Holy of Holies.

Re 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

And if that name is Jesus then no man knoweth it but him that recieves it.

Something to ponder,
Bob

kathryn
12-15-2011, 02:44 PM
Bob: I don't see the ark as the tongue yet. Maybe you could back up and show me how you got there?
But the hidden manna might very well be the seed or sex energy.
It was called "what is it?"


Hi Bob....I just have a minute here and I'll have to come back with some references from you...but will just send a couple of things quickly. (to get the ball rolling:-)
The Hebrew word for voice (of God)... is the qowl (Kole) . The Hebrew word for all...everything in Creation, is the et Kol. The ONLY connecting letter between the two is the tongue or Lamed. The et Kol...has to be divided before the Voice of God can come through the "midst" of Creation. The Kole comes forth from the et Kol. (will be back with more on this to show you how the ark is the "tongue" )

Yes..the Twin tablets..as well as the flying scroll, were ingraved on both sides. This again is the two sides of the Jordan ...the two part process of the Christ (plural)...the ONE man who is TWO. (the two who become One) The CROSSing of the Jordan is the sanctification/purification process during which we have the Law fully written on our heart. (This is why it is so important that we see Christ revealed in the Law. It was the first thing Jesus did, after the resurrection...opened the eyes of the disciples to reveal Himself in the Law , the Prophets and the Psalms.

Be back shortly. (PS..the hidden manna is what we're partaking of right now) It doesn't become the "fruit" until the condition of iniquity has been removed (or the translation/transfiguration(Light filled)...when we've returned with the "12" stones on our shoulders.) The Head crowns or births first, followed by the shoulders. (government...restored authority of God's perfect will on earth)

kathryn
12-15-2011, 06:22 PM
Hi Bob...About the Ark or "Thebah"...means the "word" as well as the Ark. (it is a picture of our High Priest/Christ, the Word made Flesh).
Within the ark were the rod(penis) the stones of Testimony/witness..(the testes) and the seed ..manna (like coriander) and it sat in the womb or Holy of Holies (virgin subconscious mind.) It pictures the consummation of the Double witness of the circumcised heart and the virgin Bride. The theme of the formation of the double witness is seen in the pairing of all of the animals, male/female, before entering the Ark)

If you take the dimensions of the Ark: 30(height) , 300(length), 50 (width)...it is the gematria of Lamed, Shin, Nun...which spells Lashan or Tongue.

If you think of the mouth, the Lamed is the Rod/Staff (penis) between the "twinned" teeth(shin..the eternal fire of God's Glory..Spirit). The nun is the 14th letter and relates to our High Priest, Jesus Christ...as well as son/offspring, progeny, inheritance, river, Passover.

In Prov. 18:21 it says that the tongue has the power of life and death, and those who eat it will eat its fruit.

By the same token, Is.9:15 says that a prophet that teaches lies is the tail. The "false prophet" is satan.. father of lies.

We are to consume the Word made Flesh. (His blood and flesh). As we do this, the "false prophet"..or the Uncircumcised high priest as the tail, is being consumed....as the Light dispels the darkness.

When the Serpent (Wisdom) has consumed its tail...the circuit is complete (returned to the source of Power) and what was the tail is now the HEAD...or High Priest..the Christ (plural) coming forth in the double, consummated witness (Voice of the TESTimony) of the circumcised heart and virgin subconscious mind. (Bridegroom and Bride). The tongue now brings forth the power of Life.

Here is the description of the tongue in the Song of Solomon:

Sol 4:11 Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of Lebanon.

Bob May
12-15-2011, 11:55 PM
Hi Bob...About the Ark or "Thebah"...means the "word" as well as the Ark. (it is a picture of our High Priest/Christ, the Word made Flesh).
Within the ark were the rod(penis) the stones of Testimony/witness..(the testes) and the seed ..manna (like coriander) and it sat in the womb or Holy of Holies (virgin subconscious mind.) It pictures the consummation of the Double witness of the circumcised heart and the virgin Bride. The theme of the formation of the double witness is seen in the pairing of all of the animals, male/female, before entering the Ark)

If you take the dimensions of the Ark: 30(height) , 300(length), 50 (width)...it is the gematria of Lamed, Shin, Nun...which spells Lashan or Tongue.

Ok, that is what I was looking for. you are taking the measurement of Noah's Ark which is Tebah and spelling lashan tongue.

This fits with the dividing of mankind by tongues and the coming together at Pentecost. I found something very interesting on that tonight. We are speaking here about how God speaks to us and part of the process is learning how to understand that speech.
We are, in a sense learning the language of God. Learning how to hear from God. But hearing that language is recieved by the Spirit.

Ge 10:1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.

Ge 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Ge 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

Ge 10:20 These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their countries, and in their nations.

Ge 10:31 These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations.

So, we were divided from understanding each other and God by tongues, Lands and nations.

Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Ac 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Ac 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Ac 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 1.
Ac 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Ac 2:9 Parthians2., and Medes,3. and Elamites4., and the dwellers in Mesopotamia5., and in Judaea,6. and Cappadocia, in Pontus7., and Asia,8.
Ac 2:10 Phrygia9, and Pamphylia10., in Egypt11, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene,12 and strangers of Rome13., Jews and proselytes14.,
Ac 2:11 Cretes15 and Arabians16, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God

(The realm of Pontus included not only Pontic Cappadocia but also the seaboard from the Bithynian frontier to Colchis, part of inland Paphlagonia, and Lesser Armenia..)

The number 17 keeps cropping up in this theme. There are only 16 nations/tongues listed above at Pentecost. Where is the 17th?
We are the 17th.

I found this same theme in the 14 generations from abraham to David, David to the captivity in Babylon and Babylon to Christ.

Mt 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Mt 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

Mt 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

Mt 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

Mt 1:12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;

Mt 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Mt 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; (Yes, 14 generations listed)
and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; (Yes again, 14 generations listed)

and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations. (Uh Oh!! only 13 Generations listed!!!)
Why is that? Because WE are the fourteenth generation.
Jesus begat US!!! These are the generations of our coming to Christ Consciousness.
We were birthed from the hole in his side from which blood and water gushed forth.
Same place that EVE was birthed from the first Adam. God opened his side to get the rib to make his bride.

And Joseph had to be included in that Geneology,.. that list of awakenings, because the Joseph experience is what leads to the Christ consciousness.
Joseph----> Jesus----> US




If you think of the mouth, the Lamed is the Rod/Staff (penis) between the "twinned" teeth(shin..the eternal fire of God's Glory..Spirit). The nun is the 14th letter and relates to our High Priest, Jesus Christ...as well as son/offspring, progeny, inheritance, river, Passover.

In Prov. 18:21 it says that the tongue has the power of life and death, and those who eat it will eat its fruit.

By the same token, Is.9:15 says that a prophet that teaches lies is the tail. The "false prophet" is satan.. father of lies.

Isa 9:15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.
Isa 9:16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed

We are to consume the Word made Flesh. (His blood and flesh). As we do this, the "false prophet"..or the Uncircumcised high priest as the tail, is being consumed....as the Light dispels the darkness.

When the Serpent (Wisdom) has consumed its tail...the circuit is complete (returned to the source of Power) and what was the tail is now the HEAD...or High Priest..the Christ (plural) coming forth in the double, consummated witness (Voice of the TESTimony) of the circumcised heart and virgin subconscious mind. (Bridegroom and Bride). The tongue now brings forth the power of Life.

Here is the description of the tongue in the Song of Solomon:

Sol 4:11 Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of Lebanon.

So the false prophet (tail) is consumed by Christ the (Head)
We are consumated with Christ.
And living waters flow from our bellies. Tabernacles.
Got it.

I'm tired tonight, it took me a while to catch what you were saying. By the way, both milk and honey have already been digested once before we consume them.

Have a great day/night,

Bob

kathryn
12-16-2011, 12:40 AM
Ok, that is what I was looking for. you are taking the measurement of Noah's Ark which is Tebah and spelling lashan tongue.
Yes...but equally as important, if not more so...is that the Lamed/tongue is the ONLY connector between All of Creation (et Kol) and His Voice (Kole/qowl).

As we were discussing earlier, all of Creation had to be divided ( drawn and quartered) in order for the Voice of God to come from the "midst" of Heaven and consummate with Earth. When that Voice/tongue is perfected (or tamed) the whole Body follows as ONE. This is why the penis and testes (testimony) of the High Priest had to be so carefully scrutinized. No uncircumcised man ...or any man with the slightest imperfection in his genitals, could enter the Holy of Holies. (virgin subconscious mind). Not ONE small imperfection or doctrines(UNCLEAN food..a MIXTURE, that go contrary to the Character and purposes of God.
The "tamed" tongue is the perfected double Witness and brings forth Life Everlasting.


This fits with the dividing of mankind by tongues and the coming together at Pentecost. I found something very interesting on that tonight. We are speaking here about how God speaks to us and part of the process is learning how to understand that speech.
We are, in a sense learning the language of God. Learning how to hear from God. But hearing that language is recieved by the Spirit.

Ge 10:1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.

Ge 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Ge 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

Ge 10:20 These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their countries, and in their nations.

Ge 10:31 These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations.

So, we were divided from understanding each other and God by tongues, Lands and nations.Yes! Even our thoughts have been divided! The "Light" must pass through the pieces, it is part of Covenant.

Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Ac 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Ac 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Ac 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 1.
Ac 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Ac 2:9 Parthians2., and Medes,3. and Elamites4., and the dwellers in Mesopotamia5., and in Judaea,6. and Cappadocia, in Pontus7., and Asia,8.
Ac 2:10 Phrygia9, and Pamphylia10., in Egypt11, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene,12 and strangers of Rome13., Jews and proselytes14.,
Ac 2:11 Cretes15 and Arabians16, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God

(The realm of Pontus included not only Pontic Cappadocia but also the seaboard from the Bithynian frontier to Colchis, part of inland Paphlagonia, and Lesser Armenia..)

The number 17 keeps cropping up in this theme. There are only 16 nations/tongues listed above at Pentecost. Where is the 17th?
We are the 17th.Wow..yes! I'd seen this concept in the 42nd...but not here!

I found this same theme in the 14 generations from abraham to David, David to the captivity in Babylon and Babylon to Christ.

Mt 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Mt 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

Mt 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

Mt 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

Mt 1:12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;

Mt 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Mt 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; (Yes, 14 generations listed)
and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; (Yes again, 14 generations listed)

and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations. (Uh Oh!! only 13 Generations listed!!!)
Why is that? Because WE are the fourteenth generation.Yes! And this fits in with the silicon witnesses. silicon is the 14th element. It is formed into GLASS...(becomes transparent) As Corporate "Son"...we become the "living sacrifice" which is also part of the Passover. (14) We Passover in the CROSSing.
Jesus begat US!!! These are the generations of our coming to Christ Consciousness.
We were birthed from the hole in his side from which blood and water gushed forth.
Same place that EVE was birthed from the first Adam. God opened his side to get the rib to make his bride.

And Joseph had to be included in that Geneology,.. that list of awakenings, because the Joseph experience is what leads to the Christ consciousness.
Joseph----> Jesus----> US




So the false prophet (tail) is consumed by Christ the (Head)
We are consumated with Christ.
And living waters flow from our bellies. Tabernacles.
Got it.

I'm tired tonight, it took me a while to catch what you were saying. By the way, both milk and honey have already been digested once before we consume them.oh my!! I hadn't thought of that!! THAT'S WONDERFUL! Sleep well dear Brother.

Have a great day/night,

Bob

kathryn
12-16-2011, 01:48 AM
I went to bed after my last read through the forum tonight....and a whole passage of scripture that has always puzzled me, finally clicked into place. I was thinking about the gifts I had bought today for my family...and I thought of those verses that speak of the Two Witnesses who are put to death and then everyone is so glad they arent torturing them anymore, they give each other gifts!


Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 14213
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 15138
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 19778
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 16072
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 16783
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


It is speaking of the consummation of the circumcised heart and the virgin subconscious mind...our birth in the Core or "Midst"! The Death into Birth that we go through...the River of Life that kills us before it brings us Life! We are tortured by the "thorn" in our side buffeting the carnal mind.
When the process is complete....we are the "integrated circuit"...ONE in Unity...TRUE Unity, which is also utter diversity! When I give YOU a gift, I am gifting myself. They are giving gifts to each other!

It is when they have finished (perfected) their TESTIMONY...that they are "killed". Who are "they"? The false prophet(s) that speak lies ...our tail! BUT they are also the Law and Prophets...of whom not one jot or tittle would pass away until ALL is fulfilled...OUR THORN!!! (that "FIRMLY LAID" Bridegroom/Bride will be utterly fulfilled! ) "The Sceptre will not leave Judah, nor a law giver between his feet UNTIL SHILOH COME! THE SPIRIT AND THE BRIDE SAY : COME! COME! COME! DRINK OF THE LIVING WATER!

Who is the city? The Old Mother...Hagar the Bondwoman and her son (we who have been made captive to our vain imaginations..as Adam)
Who is the Beast from the bottomless PIT? JOSEPH! The Christ in His Joseph/Asenath company...who rise up and become the HEAD/BODY!

Bob May
12-16-2011, 10:02 AM
Hi Kathryn,


I went to bed after my last read through the forum tonight....and a whole passage of scripture that has always puzzled me, finally clicked into place. I was thinking about the gifts I had bought today for my family...and I thought of those verses that speak of the Two Witnesses who are put to death and then everyone is so glad they arent torturing them anymore, they give each other gifts!


We are tortured by the law if we are honest with ourselves about keeping it. We can't. That is the inevitable conclusion we must come to.
This brings us to an awareness of Grace. Our sins are not held against us. the law leads us to Christ.
At this point we reject the law not knowing there are deeper, "hidden" things there.
david said, "Open mine eyes that I may behold wonderous things out of thy Law."



It is speaking of the consummation of the circumcised heart and the virgin subconscious mind...our birth in the Core or "Midst"! The Death into Birth that we go through...the River of Life that kills us before it brings us Life! We are tortured by the "thorn" in our side buffeting the carnal mind.
When the process is complete....we are the "integrated circuit"...ONE in Unity...TRUE Unity, which is also utter diversity! When I give YOU a gift, I am gifting myself. They are giving gifts to each other!


Knowing that we are under grace is a very freeing thing for someone who has been in that prison.
Sadly, that prison of the letter of the law is taught unknowingly in so called "Christian" churches.



It is when they have finished (perfected) their TESTIMONY...that they are "killed". Who are "they"? The false prophet(s) that speak lies ...our tail! BUT they are also the Law and Prophets...of whom not one jot or tittle would pass away until ALL is fulfilled...OUR THORN!!! (that "FIRMLY LAID" Bridegroom/Bride will be utterly fulfilled! ) "The Sceptre will not leave Judah, nor a law giver between his feet UNTIL SHILOH COME! THE SPIRIT AND THE BRIDE SAY : COME! COME! COME! DRINK OF THE LIVING WATER!


It is when we begin to see (after 3 1/2 days=essence, or midst of Covenant/7) those things hidden in the law and the prophets that the two witnesses come back to life. The law speaks of Jesus and our new relationship with him. The prophecies not only speak of his coming, as everyone can see, but his coming in us which everyone cannot see.



Who is the city? The Old Mother...Hagar the Bondwoman and her son (we who have been made captive to our vain imaginations..as Adam)
Who is the Beast from the bottomless PIT? JOSEPH! The Christ in His Joseph/Asenath company...who rise up and become the HEAD/BODY!


OK, I see where you are going. Joseph who was thrown into a pit by his brothers kills the old way of looking at the law and prophets. But also brings the new way of looking at them. What the law and prophets spoke about Jesus they now speak about us also.

From the old perspective of law and prophets;, in the time it was written, it was speaking about things to come. And from our time period, a looking back at things that were fulfilled.
But from the new perspective of the law and prophets; it is speaking about things happening to us now.
So Joseph rising from the pit is our changing perspective.
But it is below the surface until the reunion of the brothers and Jacob/Israel. When Joseph reveals himself.

The same angel that tells us to eat the "little book" is the one that declares in chapter 10 that "time should be no more." This concept of time "includes us out" of understanding our inheritance!!!!

Prophecy from OT times perspective is saying what will come to pass.
Prophecy from the perspective of after the cross is right interpretation of Scripture.


Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 14213
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 15138
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 19778
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 16072
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 16783
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.[/QUOTE]

I was reading the part in Deut. where Moses is shown the promised land before he dies.

Deuteronomy 34
De 34:1 And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto the mountain of Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho. And the LORD showed him all the land of Gilead, unto Dan,
De 34:2 And all Naphtali, and the land of Ephraim, and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah, unto the utmost sea, De 34:3 And the south, and the plain of the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, unto Zoar.

He is describing the extent of the Promised Land.
http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/Tree_of_life_wk_03.jpg

This Utmost Sea is Binah, Understanding on the tree of life, as opposed to the sea of images in Yesod or the Bride/Kingdom of Malkuth. It is across the abyss, hence heaven, or the Holy of Holies. Binah is the upper water that was divided from the lower water in Genesis.
This is the woman with her feet on Yesod, moon and Kether as a Crown.

Each Sephirah is a container, vessel or receptical for the one above it. In other words a female to the one above's male. Qabalah means to Recieve.
So, Tipareth recieves from above the Abyss, Heaven, and pours into Yesod, which in turn pours into Malkuth, the Bride (Kingdom and Earth) and receptical of all of the blessings.

I tried to find a glyph of this IHVH one atop another.
I
H
V
H

The Yod is Chokmah ( the very tip being Kether)
The first Heh is Binah, the upper waters. The waters that the Spirit moved across in Genesis.

Then the neck or abyss of Daath.

The Vav is the next 6 sephiroth.
The second Heh is the bride. Malkuth

So it is not the marriage until the Bride/Kingdom is connected with the rest of the Tree.
God speaks from heaven. The first two letters Yod and Heh are heaven.
So from the joining of Joseph (Sun, Tipareth) and Asenath (moon, Yesod) are produced Manasah (wisdom) and Ephraim (understanding) which are manifestations of the upper letters of Yod and Heh. In Earth.

Judah (praise) raises the seed (That Onan refused to raise to his brother.)
This closes the circuit and the line (scarlet thread) passes on to Zerah.

So God speaketh from heaven and we hear because we acknowledge and understand that the flow, interpretation, and Grace (influence from God) are not in us. It belongs to God.
The Vav

So we have the two witnesses caught up to heaven, the child caught up to heaven in Revelations, and Paul saying see that we do not refuse him that speaketh from heaven.

Bob

kathryn
12-16-2011, 10:07 AM
Now that's putting some FLESH on dem dar BONES , Bob! Yes...to it all! They become the "integrated circuit" that has returned to the Source of Power...and are finally able to send GIFTS...LIFE to the "ONE" who has been waiting to be re-mem-ber-ed in AT-ONE-MENT.

kathryn
12-16-2011, 10:14 AM
In the 3rd day....the Law is not the obvious thorn it was in the 2nd day. The doctrines of Demons are much more hidden now. The Doctrine of Hell, the Doctrine of a chosen few, the Doctrines that divide people into saints and abominations are hiding behind the GOOD fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The fruit that causes us to believe God is so Holy...He must send someone to Hell if they don't believe/obey Him etc. It is in these areas, where we must see how God fulfilled His perfect Law...binding Himself to saving ALL Mankind utterly and completely. There is NO BAD NEWS..from the fruit of the Tree of Life.

debz
12-16-2011, 10:44 AM
Hi Kathryn,



We are tortured by the law if we are honest with ourselves about keeping it. We can't. That is the inevitable conclusion we must come to.
This brings us to an awareness of Grace. Our sins are not held against us. the law leads us to Christ.
At this point we reject the law not knowing there are deeper, "hidden" things there.
david said, "Open mine eyes that I may behold wonderous things out of thy Law."



Knowing that we are under grace is a very freeing thing for someone who has been in that prison.
Sadly, that prison of the letter of the law is taught unknowingly in so called "Christian" churches.



It is when we begin to see (after 3 1/2 days=essence, or midst of Covenant/7) those things hidden in the law and the prophets that the two witnesses come back to life. The law speaks of Jesus and our new relationship with him. The prophecies not only speak of his coming, as everyone can see, but his coming in us which everyone cannot see.



OK, I see where you are going. Joseph who was thrown into a pit by his brothers kills the old way of looking at the law and prophets. But also brings the new way of looking at them. What the law and prophets spoke about Jesus they now speak about us also.

From the old perspective of law and prophets;, in the time it was written, it was speaking about things to come. And from our time period, a looking back at things that were fulfilled.
But from the new perspective of the law and prophets; it is speaking about things happening to us now.
So Joseph rising from the pit is our changing perspective.
But it is below the surface until the reunion of the brothers and Jacob/Israel. When Joseph reveals himself.

The same angel that tells us to eat the "little book" is the one that declares in chapter 10 that "time should be no more." This concept of time "includes us out" of understanding our inheritance!!!!

Prophecy from OT times perspective is saying what will come to pass.
Prophecy from the perspective of after the cross is right interpretation of Scripture.


Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 14213
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 15138
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 19778
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 16072
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 16783
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

I was reading the part in Deut. where Moses is shown the promised land before he dies.

Deuteronomy 34
De 34:1 And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto the mountain of Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho. And the LORD showed him all the land of Gilead, unto Dan,
De 34:2 And all Naphtali, and the land of Ephraim, and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah, unto the utmost sea, De 34:3 And the south, and the plain of the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, unto Zoar.

He is describing the extent of the Promised Land.
http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/Tree_of_life_wk_03.jpg

This Utmost Sea is Binah, Understanding on the tree of life, as opposed to the sea of images in Yesod or the Bride/Kingdom of Malkuth. It is across the abyss, hence heaven, or the Holy of Holies. Binah is the upper water that was divided from the lower water in Genesis.
This is the woman with her feet on Yesod, moon and Kether as a Crown.

Each Sephirah is a container, vessel or receptical for the one above it. In other words a female to the one above's male. Qabalah means to Recieve.
So, Tipareth recieves from above the Abyss, Heaven, and pours into Yesod, which in turn pours into Malkuth, the Bride (Kingdom and Earth) and receptical of all of the blessings.

I tried to find a glyph of this IHVH one atop another.
I
H
V
H

The Yod is Chokmah ( the very tip being Kether)
The first Heh is Binah, the upper waters. The waters that the Spirit moved across in Genesis.

Then the neck or abyss of Daath.

The Vav is the next 6 sephiroth.
The second Heh is the bride. Malkuth

So it is not the marriage until the Bride/Kingdom is connected with the rest of the Tree.
God speaks from heaven. The first two letters Yod and Heh are heaven.
So from the joining of Joseph (Sun, Tipareth) and Asenath (moon, Yesod) are produced Manasah (wisdom) and Ephraim (understanding) which are manifestations of the upper letters of Yod and Heh. In Earth.

Judah (praise) raises the seed (That Onan refused to raise to his brother.)
This closes the circuit and the line (scarlet thread) passes on to Zerah.

So God speaketh from heaven and we hear because we acknowledge and understand that the flow, interpretation, and Grace (influence from God) are not in us. It belongs to God.
The Vav

So we have the two witnesses caught up to heaven, the child caught up to heaven in Revelations, and Paul saying see that we do not refuse him that speaketh from heaven.

Bob

:congrats: Bob: You are very good at pulling it all together and explaining in a way people can understand!!! :anim_32:

(Richard...Yod + Heh....same thing...#15...your dream...etc., etc., etc. :winking0071:)

kathryn
12-16-2011, 11:21 AM
Bob...
The same angel that tells us to eat the "little book" is the one that declares in chapter 10 that "time should be no more." This concept of time "includes us out" of understanding our inheritance!!!!


Yes...exactly Bob! Time is eternity divided. Like everything else. Once the circuit arks back to the source of Power from which it "departed"...time is swallowed up, just like the irritant in the oyster...and the insect petrified in the Amber.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-16-2011, 12:24 PM
I tried to find a glyph of this IHVH one atop another.
I
H
V
H

The Yod is Chokmah ( the very tip being Kether)
The first Heh is Binah, the upper waters. The waters that the Spirit moved across in Genesis.

Then the neck or abyss of Daath.

The Vav is the next 6 sephiroth.
The second Heh is the bride. Malkuth

So it is not the marriage until the Bride/Kingdom is connected with the rest of the Tree.
God speaks from heaven. The first two letters Yod and Heh are heaven.
So from the joining of Joseph (Sun, Tipareth) and Asenath (moon, Yesod) are produced Manasah (wisdom) and Ephraim (understanding) which are manifestations of the upper letters of Yod and Heh. In Earth.

Judah (praise) raises the seed (That Onan refused to raise to his brother.)
This closes the circuit and the line (scarlet thread) passes on to Zerah.

So God speaketh from heaven and we hear because we acknowledge and understand that the flow, interpretation, and Grace (influence from God) are not in us. It belongs to God.
The Vav

So we have the two witnesses caught up to heaven, the child caught up to heaven in Revelations, and Paul saying see that we do not refuse him that speaketh from heaven.

Bob
Here are some connections between the human body, the Tetragrammaton, and the Bible Wheel that I posted in this thread (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2346-Pattern-in-the-Bones&p=33315#post33315) last July:

I believe there are some serious points to be made by studying the structure of bones. I first got curious about this when I noticed the identity etzmo (his bones, Eze 37:7) = 206 = the number of bones in the human body. And there is the ancient Jewish tradition that a vertical presentation of the Tetragrammaton gives a rough outline of the human form:

http://biblewheel.com/images/skeleton_YHWH.jpg

And later, I became quite intrigued by the 22 bones of the skull ( = golgoluth in Hebrew), and it's connection with the Bible Wheel (= galgal in Hebrew = 66 = 3 x 22) and the correspondence with the Canon Wheel, the Tri-radiant halo behind the head of Christ, and the geometry and function of the brain in the skull:

http://biblewheel.com/images/coronalbrain.jpg

I was intrigued by the alignment of the three main folds in the brain with the divisions of the Canon Wheel, and the fact that the functions seemed to correspond quite directly on Cycle 1, namely, the Logical left hemisphere corresponds to the Law, and the Intuitive right hemisphere to Wisdom, and the temporal lobes correspond to the large "OT Historical" section on the bottom. And this unified brain/wheel pattern is implied in the traditional icons of Christ with the tri-radiant halo, of course:


http://www.biblewheel.com/Art/PantoWheel_1_500.gif

Bob May
12-16-2011, 04:43 PM
Hi Richard Kathryn and Deb and all,


Here are some connections between the human body, the Tetragrammaton, and the Bible Wheel that I posted in this thread (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2346-Pattern-in-the-Bones&p=33315#post33315) last July:

I believe there are some serious points to be made by studying the structure of bones. I first got curious about this when I noticed the identity etzmo (his bones, Eze 37:7) = 206 = the number of bones in the human body. And there is the ancient Jewish tradition that a vertical presentation of the Tetragrammaton gives a rough outline of the human form:

http://biblewheel.com/images/skeleton_YHWH.jpg

And later, I became quite intrigued by the 22 bones of the skull ( = golgoluth in Hebrew), and it's connection with the Bible Wheel (= galgal in Hebrew = 66 = 3 x 22) and the correspondence with the Canon Wheel, the Tri-radiant halo behind the head of Christ, and the geometry and function of the brain in the skull:

http://biblewheel.com/images/coronalbrain.jpg

I was intrigued by the alignment of the three main folds in the brain with the divisions of the Canon Wheel, and the fact that the functions seemed to correspond quite directly on Cycle 1, namely, the Logical left hemisphere corresponds to the Law, and the Intuitive right hemisphere to Wisdom, and the temporal lobes correspond to the large "OT Historical" section on the bottom. And this unified brain/wheel pattern is implied in the traditional icons of Christ with the tri-radiant halo, of course:


http://www.biblewheel.com/Art/PantoWheel_1_500.gif

Hi Richard,
Also, the books of Ester and Job showing on the right side deal with that which is hidden. Ester and Job books in which God seems to hide. Peh the mouth of God or Vice of God and tzaddi the fish hook pulling something hid in the deep subconscious.
The name Sethur also means hidden and calculates to 666 which is the number of man and which is Revealed in the midst of the week (covenant.)
666 has also been related to Kundalini as the Serpent fire.

But the middle pillar which is the spine in the human body and to which are attatched all of the chakras is the real key.
By concentration on the Crown chakra energy comes down and turns and rises bringing the sex energy with it. As it rises it lights up the chakras one by one and the subtle senses are awakened, thus illuminating that which was hidden.
These are the seven spirits of God and the lamp in the Holy Place which is to be kept burning. The senses which by reason of use are exercised in order to discern both good and evil.

Ps 46:2 Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;
Ps 46:3 Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof. Selah.
Ps 46:4 There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High. Ps 46:5 God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her, and that right early.
Ps 46:6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.
Ps 46:7 The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.
Ps 46:8 Come, behold the works of the LORD, what desolations he hath made in the earth.
Ps 46:9 He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire.
Ps 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth

Ps 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
Ps 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
Ps 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
Ps 24:6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
Ps 24:7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
Ps 24:8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
Ps 24:9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
Ps 24:10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.



One of the "bones" of icon making which I noticed in the Bible wheel book is the recurring aspect of Jesus stepping out of the picture.
This is what we are speaking of here, I believe. Sometimes he is stepping outside of a vesica (Cosmic Vagina) and sometimes he is actually stepping outside of the frame.
This, I think is pointing to the Kingdom (Malkuth) of Heaven (Influence from across the abyss= Grace)

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/thumbnailCAPZQ3AI.jpg

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/thumbnail.jpg

So, the idea of Jesus stepping out of his world into ours is implied. Hence, all of creation speaks "Peh" with the voice of God. Peh is attributed to the Tower card and the cross over of the vertical path Samek wih the angel with one foot on land and one on water. Again, the angel that keeps relating back to this awareness of God speaking through symbols and letters and the physical world around us.
"I that speaketh with you am he."

Here is one version of the vertical Tetragramaton. I had a hard time finding one that would let me copy it.
http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/yahweh_edited.jpg

Bob

lenvande
12-16-2011, 05:31 PM
Wow! Sex as sublimated and sacred!

I’m afraid my return to the elephant theme might seem a trifle anticlimactic. (Initially, no pun intended, but still observed in retrospect.)

The elephant pyramid in Dumbo reminded me of Salvador Dali’s recurring elephant theme in the 1940’s. Dali’s elephants had long, multi-jointed legs that vaulted them heavenward, and they invariably supported heavy burdens on their backs, most commonly obelisks:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KTNVrrzJq10/TeJEnMVCvyI/AAAAAAAAEl8/0VLLOXUPIng/s1600/Dali-Elephants.jpg

http://www.arts-galleria.com/Dali/Dali-Elephants3.JPG

The elephant pyramid in Dumbo is anything but proportionate. Defying the foreshortening rules of linear perspective, the image that Richard initially posted shows one apparently monstrous elephant supporting a more or less obelisk-shaped tower of elephants reaching toward the apex of the big top:

http://dumbofan1.webs.com/photos/Dumbo-Screencaps/dumbo%20pyramid.png

Here is an image from the 1941 movie poster, which is an even clearer representation of the elephant-obelisk:

http://www.moviegoods.com/Assets/product_images/1010/198113.1010.A.jpg

Of course, it is obvious that the obelisk represents a phallus, but what about the supporting elephant at the base? The Hebrew word for elephant—PYL—has the same numeric weight as SMK (120). According to Michael Munk, the samekh not only symbolizes support, but is also feminine. (So much of this seems to fit in well with the conversation Kathryn and Bob have been having on the subject of sexual union as a metaphor for the union between Christ and the corporate bride, which brings forth the corporate Manchild, the sons of God.) The fact that the elephant at the base is fulfilling a supporting SMK role and the seven elephants on top are performing the role of an oblelisk/phallus seems to represent a union that is a practical impossibility according to the flesh. Dumbo’s unsuccessful attempt to crown the top as the eighth elephant on the obelisk/phallus punctuates the physical absurdity of such an act. Likewise, we can see this as a symbol of fleshly circumcision, a physical rite that does absolutely nothing for the spiritual.

What is most striking about Dali’s elephants is their long spindly legs, which seem to move effortlessly, despite being laden down by often immense loads. In fact, their legs look very similar to Dali’s crutches:

http://www.pedalplenty.com/diary/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/sleep.JPG

The relationship between the crutches and the SMK is obvious in that both support. However, the crutches seem so frail and incapable of bearing such a load, just as the elephants’ legs appear like they would be powerless under similar burdens.

Dali was an ardent Walt Disney-phile and considered him to be one of America’s three great surrealists, in addition to Hitchcock and the Marx Bros. His elephant theme began in 1944, three years after the release of Dumbo. The pink elephant scene has drawn the most speculation about whether Dali had an influence on Dumbo, but this is something most commentary discredits. Still, the fact that the two artists seemed to be tapping into similar expressions of the same archetypes seems likely.

Bob May
12-16-2011, 05:39 PM
Here are some connections between the human body, the Tetragrammaton, and the Bible Wheel that I posted in this thread (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2346-Pattern-in-the-Bones&p=33315#post33315) last July:

I believe there are some serious points to be made by studying the structure of bones. I first got curious about this when I noticed the identity etzmo (his bones, Eze 37:7) = 206 = the number of bones in the human body. And there is the ancient Jewish tradition that a vertical presentation of the Tetragrammaton gives a rough outline of the human form:

And later, I became quite intrigued by the 22 bones of the skull ( = golgoluth in Hebrew), and it's connection with the Bible Wheel (= galgal in Hebrew = 66 = 3 x 22) and the correspondence with the Canon Wheel, the Tri-radiant halo behind the head of Christ, and the geometry and function of the brain in the skull:


Some interesting connections with the number 206

The Number 206 Word [S# 1697]

The Great House [1Tim 2.20]

And God spoke all these words (Ord) [Ex 20.1]

And thy teachers [Is 43.27]
Isa 43:27 Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me.

His Bone [Job 2.5]

Strong, Mighty [S# 6099]



Even moreso when we double it. Quite a few things we have been speaking about.



The Number 412

Beyt, House [S# 1005]

The Ark [Gen 9.10]

The Sign [Is 38.7]

And God divided the light [Gen 1.4]

Break of Day [S# 827]
Ge 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Ge 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.


Desire [S# 8378]

Favor from the LORD [Pro 8.35]
Pr 8:34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
Pr 8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

I will make (for) him [Gen 2.18]

In His Holiness [Ps 60.6]

Sit, Dwell [S# 3488]

Seeks
utmost bound [S# 8379]


Looking for Dumbo is like a cosmic "Where's Waldo."

Bob

Richard Amiel McGough
12-16-2011, 06:57 PM
Wow! Sex as sublimated and sacred!

I’m afraid my return to the elephant theme might seem a trifle anticlimactic. (Initially, no pun intended, but still observed in retrospect.)

The elephant pyramid in Dumbo reminded me of Salvador Dali’s recurring elephant theme in the 1940’s. Dali’s elephants had long, multi-jointed legs that vaulted them heavenward, and they invariably supported heavy burdens on their backs, most commonly obelisks:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KTNVrrzJq10/TeJEnMVCvyI/AAAAAAAAEl8/0VLLOXUPIng/s1600/Dali-Elephants.jpg

http://www.arts-galleria.com/Dali/Dali-Elephants3.JPG

The elephant pyramid in Dumbo is anything but proportionate. Defying the foreshortening rules of linear perspective, the image that Richard initially posted shows one apparently monstrous elephant supporting a more or less obelisk-shaped tower of elephants reaching toward the apex of the big top:

http://dumbofan1.webs.com/photos/Dumbo-Screencaps/dumbo%20pyramid.png

Here is an image from the 1941 movie poster, which is an even clearer representation of the elephant-obelisk:

http://wdfanimation.tripod.com/FeatureFilms/Dumbo/dumboposter.jpg

Of course, it is obvious that the obelisk represents a phallus, but what about the supporting elephant at the base? The Hebrew word for elephant—PYL—has the same numeric weight as SMK (120). According to Michael Munk, the samekh not only symbolizes support, but is also feminine. (So much of this seems to fit in well with the conversation Kathryn and Bob have been having on the subject of sexual union as a metaphor for the union between Christ and the corporate bride, which brings forth the corporate Manchild, the sons of God.) The fact that the elephant at the base is fulfilling a supporting SMK role and the seven elephants on top are performing the role of an oblelisk/phallus seems to represent a union that is a practical impossibility according to the flesh. Dumbo’s unsuccessful attempt to crown the top as the eighth elephant on the obelisk/phallus punctuates the physical absurdity of such an act. Likewise, we can see this as a symbol of fleshly circumcision, a physical rite that does absolutely nothing for the spiritual.

What is most striking about Dali’s elephants is their long spindly legs, which seem to move effortlessly, despite being laden down by often immense loads. In fact, their legs look very similar to Dali’s crutches:

http://www.pedalplenty.com/diary/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/sleep.JPG

The relationship between the crutches and the SMK is obvious in that both support. However, the crutches seem so frail and incapable of bearing such a load, just as the elephants’ legs appear like they would be powerless under similar burdens.

Dali was an ardent Walt Disney-phile and considered him to be one of America’s three great surrealists, in addition to Hitchcock and the Marx Bros. His elephant theme began in 1944, three years after the release of Dumbo. The pink elephant scene has drawn the most speculation about whether Dali had an influence on Dumbo, but this is something most commentary discredits. Still, the fact that the two artists seemed to be tapping into similar expressions of the same archetypes seems likely.
Hey there Len, :yo:

Thanks for your sharing your insights! Very interesting indeed. I did not know about Dali, Elephants, Obelisks, and Samek. I love this quote from his wiki article:
"I am painting pictures which make me die for joy, I am creating with an absolute naturalness, without the slightest aesthetic concern, I am making things that inspire me with a profound emotion and I am trying to paint them honestly." —Salvador Dal*, in Dawn Ades, Dal* and Surrealism.

It is the freedom of his artistic spirit that caught my attention. I was going to write about this yesterday but didn't find time, and then I found this quote while researching your post. I was thinking about how gays exhibit freedom of expression and connected it with the ultimate nature of the soul/mind which is what we call "Freedom of Choice." And that's how we become creators - what we do really, actually, and truly changes the nature of reality. It is an awesome power - so awesome that some fear to face the fact that we possess it. And so awesome that some souls may try to convince you that you don't have it so you will not compete with them and they can use such powers to dominate others. Freedom is the essence of creation. Be free! Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law? Who is the thou? What is the wilt? Find those and you will have found all freedom.


Here's a cool Dali pic called Swans Reflecting Elephants (maybe that's a clue to the meaning? Spirit/Bird vs. Matter/Elephant?. Note three bird trinity.

234


This echos the central message of the Dumbo Movie ~ you can do the impossible if only you have faith. And the object of your faith doesn't matter. In the movie, Dumbo believed he could fly because of a "magic feather" that had no power other than to evoke a certain state in his mind - the mind state required to fly. And fly he did. As unbelievable and improbable as a pyramid of pachyderms, or Dali's stilts. The theme of "Support/Samek" runs throughout.

And the theme of birth (YLD = 44), so fundamental to the Dumbo Dream, is also central to Dali's art: "The egg is another common Dal*esque image. He connects the egg to the prenatal and intrauterine, thus using it to symbolize hope and love." [wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Dal%C3%AD)]

kathryn
12-16-2011, 07:08 PM
Hi All...another amazing sign in the Heavenlies confirming our word on the TAIL being swallowed! Have a look:



COMET LOVEJOY SURVIVES:
Incredibly, sungrazing Comet Lovejoy appears to have survived its close encounter with the sun. Lovejoy flew only 140,000 km over the stellar surface during the early hours of Dec. 16th. NASA's Solar Dynamics Observatory caught the comet emerging from perihelion (closest approach).


Comet Lovejoy began the week as a chunk of dusty, rocky ice some 200 meters in diameter. No one can say how much of the comet's core remains intact or how long it will hang together after the searing heat of perihelion. Another movie from SDO hints at the rough treatment this comet has endured.


New images from the Solar and Heliospheric Observatory confirm that Comet Lovejoy survived perihelion and is now receding from the sun:


Curiously , the comet seems to have lost its tail in transit through the sun's atmosphere. A decapitated remnant tail can still be seen tracing Comet Lovejoy's path into the sun, but the exiting comet has no obvious trail of dust behind it. Stay tuned for more discussion of this point.


Discovered on Dec. 2nd by amateur astronomer Terry Lovejoy of Australia, the comet is an unusually large member of the Kreutz family. Kreutz sungrazers are fragments of a single giant comet (probably the Great Comet of 1106) that broke apart back in the 12th century. SOHO sees one plunging into the sun every few days, but most are small, no more than 10 meters wide. Comet Lovejoy is at least ten times larger than usual.
[End article]

Richard Amiel McGough
12-18-2011, 11:01 AM
Here's a cool Dali pic called Swans Reflecting Elephants (maybe that's a clue to the meaning? Spirit/Bird vs. Matter/Elephant?. Note three bird trinity.

234


This echos the central message of the Dumbo Movie ~ you can do the impossible if only you have faith. And the object of your faith doesn't matter. In the movie, Dumbo believed he could fly because of a "magic feather" that had no power other than to evoke a certain state in his mind - the mind state required to fly. And fly he did. As unbelievable and improbable as a pyramid of pachyderms, or Dali's stilts. The theme of "Support/Samek" runs throughout.

And the theme of birth (YLD = 44), so fundamental to the Dumbo Dream, is also central to Dali's art: "The egg is another common Dal*esque image. He connects the egg to the prenatal and intrauterine, thus using it to symbolize hope and love." [wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Dal%C3%AD)]
It just occurred to me that Dali's painting shows the swans' wings reflected onto the elephants' ears. This echos the theme of the Dumbo Movie - that Dumbo could fly with his ears. Here's a snippet from an article (http://www.tate.org.uk/tateetc/issue10/dali_unclewalt.htm) written by Walt's nephew Roy Disney:
Both Dal* and Disney were fascinated with the idea of transformation. Certainly, it is a radical aspect of Disney and a common theme that runs through a lot of the films. Think of The Skeleton Dance from Silly Symphonies (1929) and, later, sections in Fantasia (1940). It is also a prominent feature of the Pink Elephants on Parade in Dumbo (1941), which I know Dal* had seen. ... I believe they influenced one another. Disney films can be seen as being incredibly surreal, and I imagine that is why Dal* was attracted to them. But also I think they worked well together because, above all, they were both incredible optimists. Dal*'s paintings can make you feel optimistic, and so do the Disney films.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-18-2011, 12:34 PM
It just occurred to me that Dali's painting shows the swans' wings reflected onto the elephants' ears. This echos the theme of the Dumbo Movie - that Dumbo could fly with his ears. Here's a snippet from an article (http://www.tate.org.uk/tateetc/issue10/dali_unclewalt.htm) written by Walt's nephew Roy Disney:
Both Dal* and Disney were fascinated with the idea of transformation. Certainly, it is a radical aspect of Disney and a common theme that runs through a lot of the films. Think of The Skeleton Dance from Silly Symphonies (1929) and, later, sections in Fantasia (1940). It is also a prominent feature of the Pink Elephants on Parade in Dumbo (1941), which I know Dal* had seen. ... I believe they influenced one another. Disney films can be seen as being incredibly surreal, and I imagine that is why Dal* was attracted to them. But also I think they worked well together because, above all, they were both incredible optimists. Dal*'s paintings can make you feel optimistic, and so do the Disney films.


Here's the movie Destino that Dali and Disney collaborated on:


http://youtu.be/1dIznsAdTOE

Basically, Disney made an animated Dali painting! Fascinating stuff ...

kathryn
12-18-2011, 12:55 PM
Here's the movie Destino that Dali and Disney collaborated on:


http://youtu.be/1dIznsAdTOE

Basically, Disney made an animated Dali painting! Fascinating stuff ...

It really is fascinating! I've always been intrigued with Dali as a person. He had a room built in his house he called the WOMB ROOM where he received much of his inspiration. He must have also contemplated the concept of time, with all of his melting clocks dripping over window sills etc.

lenvande
12-18-2011, 05:25 PM
Great observation on the Swans painting, Richard. I hadn’t noticed the ears/wings transformation before. Clearly, Dali and Disney were channeling the same archetypes.

Some other interesting points on Dali’s paintings of elephants bearing obelisks. He began this theme with 'Dream Caused by the Flight of a Bee Around a Pomegranate a Second Before Awakening':

http://www.bluesuntree.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/5/0/503_108_632x632.jpg

In the dream, a nude woman is on the verge of being pierced by a bayonet emerging from a tiger, which emerges from another tiger, which emerges from a fish, which emerges from a giant pomegranate. In reality, the woman is about to be stung by a bee which has been buzzing around a pomegranate lying next to her. Dali’s first stilt-legged elephant is in the background bearing an obelisk. Wiki provides some interesting information regarding the symbols used in the painting:

In this 'hand-painted dream photograph' — as Dal* generally called his paintings — we find a seascape of distant horizons and calm waters, perhaps Port Lligat, amidst which Gala [Dali’s wife] is the subject of the scene. Next to the naked body of the sleeping woman, which levitates above a flat rock that floats above the sea, Dal* depicts two suspended droplets of water and a pomegranate, a Christian symbol of fertility and resurrection.[2] Above the pomegranate flies a bee, an insect that traditionally symbolizes the Virgin.[3]

In the upper left of the painting a fish bursts out of the pomegranate, and in turn spews out a tiger who then spews out another tiger and a bayonet. A second later the bayonet will sting Gala in the arm.

Interestingly, this painting was released in 1944, which echoes the 44 in your dream. Also, it was the first such Dali painting incorporating a stilt-legged elephant bearing an obelisk. The Hebrew words we’ve mostly focused on which have a numeric weight of 44 have been DM and YLD, both of which I believe continue to bear much relevance here when considering the Virgin Birth and Christ’s death and resurrection. However, what if we broke down the numeric weights into their most basic elements (MD or garment). On the one hand, the fact that the woman is nude, a transitional condition between removing clothing and ultimately putting it on again, speaks of her connection to physical reality while yet on the threshold of another world. Through Christ, Christians hope to shed their earthly garment and don a heavenly one. Ezekiel 44 shows us a type of this in the ministering function of the Levitical priesthood:

Eze 44:15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
[16] They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge. [17] And it shall come to pass, [that] when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within. [18] They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird [themselves] with any thing that causeth sweat. [19] And when they go forth into the utter court, [even] into the utter court to the people, they shall put off their garments wherein they ministered, and lay them in the holy chambers, and they shall put on other garments; and they shall not sanctify the people with their garments.

Granted, Ezekiel uses the word BGD in lieu of MD. However, the fact that his 44th chapter deals directly with the subject of exchanging garments to move from one world (the sanctuary and inner court) to another (the outer court) is highly synchronized with Dali’s 1944 painting and the numeric weight of MD.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-18-2011, 05:53 PM
Great observation on the Swans painting, Richard. I hadn’t noticed the ears/wings transformation before. Clearly, Dali and Disney were channeling the same archetypes.

Some other interesting points on Dali’s paintings of elephants bearing obelisks. He began this theme with 'Dream Caused by the Flight of a Bee Around a Pomegranate a Second Before Awakening':

...

In the dream, a nude woman is on the verge of being pierced by a bayonet emerging from a tiger, which emerges from another tiger, which emerges from a fish, which emerges from a giant pomegranate. In reality, the woman is about to be stung by a bee which has been buzzing around a pomegranate lying next to her. Dali’s first stilt-legged elephant is in the background bearing an obelisk. Wiki provides some interesting information regarding the symbols used in the painting:

In this 'hand-painted dream photograph' — as Dal* generally called his paintings — we find a seascape of distant horizons and calm waters, perhaps Port Lligat, amidst which Gala [Dali’s wife] is the subject of the scene. Next to the naked body of the sleeping woman, which levitates above a flat rock that floats above the sea, Dal* depicts two suspended droplets of water and a pomegranate, a Christian symbol of fertility and resurrection.[2] Above the pomegranate flies a bee, an insect that traditionally symbolizes the Virgin.[3]

In the upper left of the painting a fish bursts out of the pomegranate, and in turn spews out a tiger who then spews out another tiger and a bayonet. A second later the bayonet will sting Gala in the arm.

Interestingly, this painting was released in 1944, which echoes the 44 in your dream. Also, it was the first such Dali painting incorporating a stilt-legged elephant bearing an obelisk. The Hebrew words we’ve mostly focused on which have a numeric weight of 44 have been DM and YLD, both of which I believe continue to bear much relevance here when considering the Virgin Birth and Christ’s death and resurrection. However, what if we broke down the numeric weights into their most basic elements (MD or garment). On the one hand, the fact that the woman is nude, a transitional condition between removing clothing and ultimately putting it on again, speaks of her connection to physical reality while yet on the threshold of another world. Through Christ, Christians hope to shed their earthly garment and don a heavenly one. Ezekiel 44 shows us a type of this in the ministering function of the Levitical priesthood:

Eze 44:15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
[16] They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge. [17] And it shall come to pass, [that] when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within. [18] They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird [themselves] with any thing that causeth sweat. [19] And when they go forth into the utter court, [even] into the utter court to the people, they shall put off their garments wherein they ministered, and lay them in the holy chambers, and they shall put on other garments; and they shall not sanctify the people with their garments.

Granted, Ezekiel uses the word BGD in lieu of MD. However, the fact that his 44th chapter deals directly with the subject of exchanging garments to move from one world (the sanctuary and inner court) to another (the outer court) is highly synchronized with Dali’s 1944 painting and the numeric weight of MD.
Fascinating painting.

Just noticed that Dali could be spelled DLY in Hebrew, which is YLD spelled backwards and so has the value 44.

I once had a surrealistic dream about a rocking horse, and found that it was known as a dada in French. This seemed significant because of the D-D (4-4) in dada. It's all very "idiosyncratic" - the meaning depends very much upon my own personal history, but there are aspects that seem to reflect more objective or universal aspects of the One Mind.

The "MD" you picked up on is in the movie in the title on the cage where Dumbo's mom was imprisoned. It said "MaD Elephant."

And here's a pic of someone who recognized the Dali-Disney connection. They inserted Dumbo and his crow friends into Dali's famous Women at a Window painting.

240

kathryn
12-18-2011, 06:42 PM
Great observation on the Swans painting, Richard. I hadn’t noticed the ears/wings transformation before. Clearly, Dali and Disney were channeling the same archetypes.

Some other interesting points on Dali’s paintings of elephants bearing obelisks. He began this theme with 'Dream Caused by the Flight of a Bee Around a Pomegranate a Second Before Awakening':

http://www.bluesuntree.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/5/0/503_108_632x632.jpg

In the dream, a nude woman is on the verge of being pierced by a bayonet emerging from a tiger, which emerges from another tiger, which emerges from a fish, which emerges from a giant pomegranate. In reality, the woman is about to be stung by a bee which has been buzzing around a pomegranate lying next to her. Dali’s first stilt-legged elephant is in the background bearing an obelisk. Wiki provides some interesting information regarding the symbols used in the painting:

In this 'hand-painted dream photograph' — as Dal* generally called his paintings — we find a seascape of distant horizons and calm waters, perhaps Port Lligat, amidst which Gala [Dali’s wife] is the subject of the scene. Next to the naked body of the sleeping woman, which levitates above a flat rock that floats above the sea, Dal* depicts two suspended droplets of water and a pomegranate, a Christian symbol of fertility and resurrection.[2] Above the pomegranate flies a bee, an insect that traditionally symbolizes the Virgin.[3]

In the upper left of the painting a fish bursts out of the pomegranate, and in turn spews out a tiger who then spews out another tiger and a bayonet. A second later the bayonet will sting Gala in the arm.

Interestingly, this painting was released in 1944, which echoes the 44 in your dream. Also, it was the first such Dali painting incorporating a stilt-legged elephant bearing an obelisk. The Hebrew words we’ve mostly focused on which have a numeric weight of 44 have been DM and YLD, both of which I believe continue to bear much relevance here when considering the Virgin Birth and Christ’s death and resurrection. However, what if we broke down the numeric weights into their most basic elements (MD or garment). On the one hand, the fact that the woman is nude, a transitional condition between removing clothing and ultimately putting it on again, speaks of her connection to physical reality while yet on the threshold of another world. Through Christ, Christians hope to shed their earthly garment and don a heavenly one. Ezekiel 44 shows us a type of this in the ministering function of the Levitical priesthood:

Eze 44:15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
[16] They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge. [17] And it shall come to pass, [that] when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within. [18] They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird [themselves] with any thing that causeth sweat. [19] And when they go forth into the utter court, [even] into the utter court to the people, they shall put off their garments wherein they ministered, and lay them in the holy chambers, and they shall put on other garments; and they shall not sanctify the people with their garments.

Granted, Ezekiel uses the word BGD in lieu of MD. However, the fact that his 44th chapter deals directly with the subject of exchanging garments to move from one world (the sanctuary and inner court) to another (the outer court) is highly synchronized with Dali’s 1944 painting and the numeric weight of MD.

This fascinating Len! The symbolism also fits the theme of the beast coming up out of the bottomless pit...which is the pomegranate in disguise. It first "kills" us (the Old Man) and then becomes the Joseph/Christ coming from the pit (the tail) who turns into the Head/Pomegranate. The bee is also a type of Deborah. As Bob mentioned, honey is pre-digested food the woman, in the transitional stage suspended between the two realms, would be fed to be clothed in her wedding atire.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-18-2011, 06:54 PM
This fascinating Len! The symbolism also fits the theme of the beast coming up out of the bottomless pit...which is the pomegranate in disguise. It first "kills" us (the Old Man) and then becomes the Joseph/Christ coming from the pit (the tail) who turns into the Head/Pomegranate. The bee is also a type of Deborah. As Bob mentioned, honey is pre-digested food the woman, in the transitional stage suspended between the two realms, would be fed to be clothed in her wedding atire.
The "beast from the deep" is Leviathan. The subconscious self that threatens to swallow up the conscious self (ego) and drag it down to the depths. The conscious self (ego) is like a person floating on a vast ocean full of strange creatures in a dinghy at night with nothing but a small lantern ...

kathryn
12-18-2011, 06:56 PM
Richard:
I once had a surrealistic dream about a rocking horse, and found that it was known as a dada in French. This seemed significant because of the D-D (4-4) in dada. It's all very "idiosyncratic" - the meaning depends very much upon my own personal history, but there are aspects that seem to reflect more objective or universal aspects of the One Mind.


Again Richard...because we are One, your personal story...as your personal statistics....are all telling part of One Story. We've all been given as a unique perspective on this one story...and it is in these details of others, we learn more of ourselves and destiny.

We're so used to being divided from one another in our imaginations, and this brings a reluctance to share these things, as it seems prideful, lacking in humility. This has kept us from understanding so much. When I truly realized that Christ is in and through all things, it was as though I had been stone deaf and seeing through just a fraction of my facilities for sensing the Word made Flesh all around me......to suddenly having all of them open up and merge into this one beautiful, multidimensional Entity that was speaking in a continual flow, day and night. This was how we were always meant to know God...through His Creation. I'm not pressing you for details:winking0071: . I just wanted to mention this, because we've gained so much understanding through sharing our dreams and visions lately...and I'm hoping it will continue to expand.

kathryn
12-18-2011, 07:04 PM
The "beast from the deep" is Leviathan. The subconscious self that threatens to swallow up the conscious self (ego) and drag it down to the depths. The conscious self (ego) is like a person floating on a vast ocean full of strange creatures in a dinghy at night with nothing but a small lantern ...

Yes...and that dingy was Paul's shipwreck that happened at the place where "two seas met" (divine/carnal head/tail). And after the wreck, he swam to Melita (of HONEY; escaping).
This was where the serpent lept out of the heat of the fire and bit his hand...and he flung it away, amazing the Islanders that he didn't die from the bite. He was given great favor on the Island.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-18-2011, 07:14 PM
Richard:
I once had a surrealistic dream about a rocking horse, and found that it was known as a dada in French. This seemed significant because of the D-D (4-4) in dada. It's all very "idiosyncratic" - the meaning depends very much upon my own personal history, but there are aspects that seem to reflect more objective or universal aspects of the One Mind.


Again Richard...because we are One, your personal story...as your personal statistics....are all telling part of One Story. We've all been given as a unique perspective on this one story...and it is in these details of others, we learn more of ourselves and destiny.

We're so used to being divided from one another in our imaginations, and this brings a reluctance to share these things, as it seems prideful, lacking in humility. This has kept us from understanding so much. When I truly realized that Christ is in and through all things, it was as though I had been stone deaf and seeing through just a fraction of my facilities for sensing the Word made Flesh all around me......to suddenly having all of them open up and merge into this one beautiful, multidimensional Entity that was speaking in a continual flow, day and night. This was how we were always meant to know God...through His Creation. I'm not pressing you for details:winking0071: . I just wanted to mention this, because we've gained so much understanding through sharing our dreams and visions lately...and I'm hoping it will continue to expand.
I'm really glad you mentioned that. I'm just waking up again to the reality of our unity. I am reading The Psychedelic Explorer's Guide and there are brief statements by a number of the pioneers. Last night was was quite stricken by this simple statement by Alexander Shulgin that "I understood that our entire universe is contained in the mind and spirit." I've always known that but I've never really let myself believe it. When we realize the full implications of that statement, our world is transformed.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-18-2011, 07:23 PM
Yes...and that dingy was Paul's shipwreck that happened at the place where "two seas met" (divine/carnal head/tail). And after the wreck, he swam to Melita (of HONEY; escaping).
This was where the serpent lept out of the heat of the fire and bit his hand...and he flung it away, amazing the Islanders that he didn't die from the bite. He was given great favor on the Island.
Perhaps you could fill in the details a little. How does the story of shipwreck relate to the conscious and unconscious and unconscious minds?

kathryn
12-18-2011, 07:23 PM
I'm really glad you mentioned that. I'm just waking up again to the reality of our unity. I am reading The Psychedelic Explorer's Guide and there are brief statements by a number of the pioneers. Last night was was quite stricken by this simple statement by Alexander Shulgin that "I understood that our entire universe is contained in the mind and spirit." I've always known that but I've never really let myself believe it. When we realize the full implications of that statement, our world is transformed.

That is THE statement, isn't it? Wonderful!
Now...I have to ask you, are you open enough to see that Comet LoveJoy has been, everyday, witnessing to the themes on the posts ? I have to ask...because no one has said a word...not even Bob...and I've been bouncing off the ceiling since last night with excitement. It's lonely being excited by yourself!:bawl:

kathryn
12-18-2011, 07:30 PM
Perhaps you could fill in the details a little. How does the story of shipwreck relate to the conscious and unconscious and unconscious minds?
The subconscious mind in scripture, is the Holy of Holies. We have been in the refining or renewing stage which takes place in the realm of the soul/conscious mind..or the Holy Place (between the two realms...or between the waters (as the ship) .

When the two are integrated or consummated, the "old" ship that carried us across the waters, is wrecked. (the Holy Place and Outer Court are no longer....and only the Holy of Holies remains (Paul/US). (as in the Tabernacle of David which had fallen....and then is raised up. It only had a Holy of Holies, no curtain, no sacrificies etc.)

Richard Amiel McGough
12-18-2011, 08:14 PM
That is THE statement, isn't it? Wonderful!
Now...I have to ask you, are you open enough to see that Comet LoveJoy has been, everyday, witnessing to the themes on the posts ? I have to ask...because no one has said a word...not even Bob...and I've been bouncing off the ceiling since last night with excitement. It's lonely being excited by yourself!:bawl:
Well, first, it probably would be better not to ask if I am "open enough" to agree with what you see since that carries the unintended (I hope) implication that it's my fault if I don't agree with you.

Now as for the comet LoveJoy - I haven't been following your comments. So much of what you say strikes me as very idiosyncratic and hard to follow. And when I do try to enter into it, we quickly end up with very tangled posts going back and forth nowhere fast until we just drop them in frustration.

Here's the big thing. You seem to think there is something "prophetic" in all these things like the Tim Tebow stuff. I don't believe in anything like that. I don't think there are any "prophecies" about future events. There's nothing like "On April 23, 2012 there will be an earthquake" or whatever. So there are no prophecies as far as I can tell. So what does it all mean? I don't know, but I'd be happy to listen. Like I said, I haven't been following the Tim Tebow or the Lovejoy stuff because it's not a "vibe" that ran any bells. But I'm happy to listen if you want to share.

kathryn
12-18-2011, 09:30 PM
Well, first, it probably would be better not to ask if I am "open enough" to agree with what you see since that carries the unintended (I hope) implication that it's my fault if I don't agree with you.

Now as for the comet LoveJoy - I haven't been following your comments. So much of what you say strikes me as very idiosyncratic and hard to follow. And when I do try to enter into it, we quickly end up with very tangled posts going back and forth nowhere fast until we just drop them in frustration.

Here's the big thing. You seem to think there is something "prophetic" in all these things like the Tim Tebow stuff. I don't believe in anything like that. I don't think there are any "prophecies" about future events. There's nothing like "On April 23, 2012 there will be an earthquake" or whatever. So there are no prophecies as far as I can tell. So what does it all mean? I don't know, but I'd be happy to listen. Like I said, I haven't been following the Tim Tebow or the Lovejoy stuff because it's not a "vibe" that ran any bells. But I'm happy to listen if you want to share.

Ok...fair enough:winking0071: And no...this has nothing to do with fault, believe me.
Let's leave the word "prophetic" out of it...because it has a host of mindsets behind it in christendom...and if we've been in the church at any point it triggers judgements that block the flow.
You said you were waking to the understanding of true Unity. I was curious then, if you could extend this to the universe...and the visible universe. Scripture does speak much about the events in the heavenlies, that we can see with our eyes.
I'm not the least bit interested in traditional biblical prophecy as I think we have both been subjected to. All I am referring to is the witness of the Word made Flesh in creation, including each other.

kathryn
12-18-2011, 09:39 PM
Richard...I just wanted to say that I'm not being purposely idiosyncratic or obscure. I honestly don't know how else to put things.

debz
12-18-2011, 09:41 PM
That is THE statement, isn't it? Wonderful!
Now...I have to ask you, are you open enough to see that Comet LoveJoy has been, everyday, witnessing to the themes on the posts ? I have to ask...because no one has said a word...not even Bob...and I've been bouncing off the ceiling since last night with excitement. It's lonely being excited by yourself!:bawl:

Kathryn--SORRY!!! I do see Comet Lovejoy witnessing in the "heavens" ... I've just been too busy to post any lengthy comments...but you are not alone!!! :hug:

Deb

Richard Amiel McGough
12-18-2011, 09:52 PM
Ok...fair enough:winking0071: And no...this has nothing to do with fault, believe me.
Let's leave the word "prophetic" out of it...because it has a host of mindsets behind it in christendom...and if we've been in the church at any point it triggers judgements that block the flow.
You said you were waking to the understanding of true Unity. I was curious then, if you could extend this to the universe...and the visible universe. Scripture does speak much about the events in the heavenlies, that we can see with our eyes.
I'm not the least bit interested in traditional biblical prophecy as I think we have both been subjected to. All I am referring to is the witness of the Word made Flesh in creation, including each other.
Of course I am speaking of the entire Living Universe when I speak of the unity of all. The thing about the Universe is that I used to think it was just made up of "dead matter" like atoms, planets, stars and galaxies. Now I see it as a manifestation of Living Mind and Consciousness.

But when you speak of events in the heavenlies relating to things that you happen to be talking about I see that as a very idiosyncratic phenomenon because you could be talking about anyone of the quadrillions of quadrillions of possible things and look in the newspaper and see things that confirm whatever it is you are thinking about. So how is that "prophetic?" On the other hand, synchronicities are amazing meaningful coincidences that we all experience when we begin to "tune in" to the Living Cosmos so it's all good, it's just that what strikes you as "prophetic" might not be particularly meaningful to anyone else. So it's the sifting through the ten thousand things to find that which is more broadly meaningful that I find interesting. Too much idiosyncratic stuff, or things that fit superficially with something tends to feel like it occludes the light more than focuses it.

So .. with all that ... what is it that you think is significant about all these things you've been talking about (Tim Tebow, Lovejoy comet, etc.)?

heb13-13
12-18-2011, 09:53 PM
The subconscious mind in scripture, is the Holy of Holies. We have been in the refining or renewing stage which takes place in the realm of the soul/conscious mind..or the Holy Place (between the two realms...or between the waters (as the ship) .

When the two are integrated or consummated, the "old" ship that carried us across the waters, is wrecked. (the Holy Place and Outer Court are no longer....and only the Holy of Holies remains (Paul/US). (as in the Tabernacle of David which had fallen....and then is raised up. It only had a Holy of Holies, no curtain, no sacrificies etc.)

Gosh, I'm just trying to figure out where in the Scriptures that the subconscious mind is the Holy of Holies? :dontknow:

How come everyone seems to understand this stuff except me? If you do, I really feel stupid. According to Kat, I am supposed to study the Law and then it will all come clear. I mean cervix, vagina, penis, poop, Satan is divided, we are divided, we are between two realms or waters, Satan is wisdom divided, Lil' Red Riding Hood, goodies under the skirt!! Lord Jesus, how have I missed all this stuff????


Somebody throw me a Life Preserver or give me a copy of the Bible you are reading!!!:eek:

242

debz
12-18-2011, 09:59 PM
Well, first, it probably would be better not to ask if I am "open enough" to agree with what you see since that carries the unintended (I hope) implication that it's my fault if I don't agree with you.

Now as for the comet LoveJoy - I haven't been following your comments. So much of what you say strikes me as very idiosyncratic and hard to follow. And when I do try to enter into it, we quickly end up with very tangled posts going back and forth nowhere fast until we just drop them in frustration.

Here's the big thing. You seem to think there is something "prophetic" in all these things like the Tim Tebow stuff. I don't believe in anything like that. I don't think there are any "prophecies" about future events. There's nothing like "On April 23, 2012 there will be an earthquake" or whatever. So there are no prophecies as far as I can tell. So what does it all mean? I don't know, but I'd be happy to listen. Like I said, I haven't been following the Tim Tebow or the Lovejoy stuff because it's not a "vibe" that ran any bells. But I'm happy to listen if you want to share.

Hi Richard...

"prophetic" is interpreted differently by people, so it's hard to know what your understanding of the word is. However, when I post the things on Tim Tebow, what I mean by "prophetic" is that he is just a representative symbol or type of the "remnant" company in our day. I know this doesn't make any sense to you yet, but I would think that the fact that what I have shown on the #15, and how Denver is the "mile high city" (5280 ft), and that his name reflects T-BOW (Tav-Bow), would at least pique your interest in light of your dreams, etc. "Prophetic" means there is a mystery behind it...it seems you are interested in unravelling mysteries...am I missing something??

There is another aspect to "prophetic" as well....and yes, it does include some predictive aspects. Did you read my post Post #134 in the Male Bias thread? Link:

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2303-The-Male-Bias-of-the-Bible&p=39362#post39362

"prophetic" is mostly just understanding mysteries, and able to "SEE" things in symbolic form....things that God is speaking in very many ways...

I have many, many stories of "prophetic" things. Another example is a good friend being shown a vision of a woman's face, seeing exactly what she looked like, and being told audibly where she was at the moment, and a simple message that God wanted to convey to her. I went along with my friend, found her in a downtown bar (where we were told she would be...), gave her the message, to which she responded by breaking down in tears because she was seeking that specific answer at that moment... Many, many stories along these lines. It's all for good. But most don't "walk" in that, so they have never seen or experienced those things, therefore since THEY haven't experienced it first-hand, they "discount" it as invalid.

~Deb

kathryn
12-18-2011, 09:59 PM
Gosh, I'm just trying to figure out where in the Scriptures that the subconscious mind is the Holy of Holies? :dontknow:

How come everyone seems to understand this stuff except me? If you do, I really feel stupid. According to Kat, I am supposed to study the Law and then it will all come clear. I mean cervix, vagina, penis, poop, Satan is divided, we are divided, we are between two realms or waters, Satan is wisdom divided, Lil' Red Riding Hood, goodies under the skirt!! Lord Jesus, how have I missed all this stuff????


Somebody throw me a Life Preserver or give me a copy of the Bible you are reading!!!:eek:Rick...what witnesses does the bible give to describe the Mystery of Christ's relationship with His church? Physical intercourse! As I asked weeks ago.....have you ever heard a teaching on this? An IN DEPTH ONE...? WHY? You'd think that anyone wanting to understand the mystery would get the most information of this physical act of Love...to unravel the mystery. It takes a penis and vagina for intercourse. Christ is our High Priest. Where is our vagina? Look at temple typology! The word for "sides" in the Holy of Holies is THIGHS. THE PRIEST ENTERED HER THROUGH HER THIGHS. And...when she is consummated...SHE gives BIRTH. When a woman gives birth....the HEAD puts a tremendous pressure on the BOWEL. (these are all the comely and UNcomely parts we're to HONOR in 1st Corinthians. CHRIST IS IN AND THROUGH ALL THINGS in creation. THIS is the MEAT of the word...the understanding of the BIRDS AND BEES that youngsters can't digest until they come into man/womanhood.

242

Richard Amiel McGough
12-18-2011, 10:06 PM
Richard...I just wanted to say that I'm not being purposely idiosyncratic or obscure. I honestly don't know how else to put things.
I didn't think it was something you were deliberately doing. I'm just trying to help you understand what might help others to understand what you are saying. You are mixing together Christian metaphors with all sorts of metaphors that strike me at very odd angles, and when I try to pursue what they might mean, we usually end up in confusion and a failure to understand.

Do you take time to consider what your words might sound like to someone who is not immediately aware of specific things going on in your head? (That's the rest of us, you know! :winking0071: )

kathryn
12-18-2011, 10:09 PM
Of course I am speaking of the entire Living Universe when I speak of the unity of all. The thing about the Universe is that I used to think it was just made up of "dead matter" like atoms, planets, stars and galaxies. Now I see it as a manifestation of Living Mind and Consciousness.

But when you speak of events in the heavenlies relating to things that you happen to be talking about I see that as a very idiosyncratic phenomenon because you could be talking about anyone of the quadrillions of quadrillions of possible things and look in the newspaper and see things that confirm whatever it is you are thinking about. So how is that "prophetic?" On the other hand, synchronicities are amazing meaningful coincidences that we all experience when we begin to "tune in" to the Living Cosmos so it's all good, it's just that what strikes you as "prophetic" might not be particularly meaningful to anyone else. So it's the sifting through the ten thousand things to find that which is more broadly meaningful that I find interesting. Too much idiosyncratic stuff, or things that fit superficially with something tends to feel like it occludes the light more than focuses it. Ok...we'll call it synchronicity, but the fact is....we have been stressing the LOVE/JOY of God, which was followed by an understanding of the TAIL being decapitated and becoming the Head/tongue. That very day, the comet lost its tail....decaptiated. The following day, we spoke of the TWO tails which Samson placed face to face and passed the firebrand between them. THAT very day, the site showed the comet with TWO tails. Today, I woke up with a dream of stick figures dancing or weaving around each other, which I posted. This was followed by the site this morning, saying the comets tail was moving in magnetic harmony with the sun...or dancing, if you will. I have seen this happen so many times now, that I don't question it. So...whether or not it is meaningful to anyone else means nothing...It's just much more exciting when you are sharing it with someone who is seeing the same thing. (and thanks for the encouragement Deb! )

So .. with all that ... what is it that you think is significant about all these things you've been talking about (Tim Tebow, Lovejoy comet, etc.)?

kathryn
12-18-2011, 10:13 PM
oops...forgot the best one! The comet's tail dancing in harmony with the sun, was followed by a song (this always flows with me) from the KING and I....that showed, at the beginning, Deborah Ker weaving around Yul Brenner before they begin the dance. If you look back on one of the threads from two weeks ago...you'll see where we had the 123 (dancing steps) in another insight, which drew it all into the one concept. :winking0071: I hadn't heard or seen The King and I in years. It was just sitting in my mind, waiting to be released at the right time.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-18-2011, 10:20 PM
Hi Richard...

"prophetic" is interpreted differently by people, so it's hard to know what your understanding of the word is. However, when I post the things on Tim Tebow, what I mean by "prophetic" is that he is just a representative symbol or type of the "remnant" company in our day. I know this doesn't make any sense to you yet, but I would think that the fact that what I have shown on the #15, and how Denver is the "mile high city" (5280 ft), and that his name reflects T-BOW (Tav-Bow), would at least pique your interest in light of your dreams, etc. "Prophetic" means there is a mystery behind it...it seems you are interested in unravelling mysteries...am I missing something??

I understand how you made those connections and that meaning of "prophetic" and that's what I thought you meant. But I don't agree with your foundational premise that there is a "remnant company in our day." And that shows why those kinds of connections are not very helpful - they only "confirm" what you already believe. And since similar connections can be found by anyone to confirm anything, there is something fundamentally uninteresting about them to me.



There is another aspect to "prophetic" as well....and yes, it does include some predictive aspects. Did you read my post Post #134 in the Male Bias thread? Link:

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2303-The-Male-Bias-of-the-Bible&p=39362#post39362

"prophetic" is mostly just understanding mysteries, and able to "SEE" things in symbolic form....things that God is speaking in very many ways...

Yes, and that's a perfect example of the point I am trying to make. You have a mountain of "end times assumptions" about some sort of "second coming" and some sort of "remnant" and that it's all supposed to be coming down in "our generation" meaning sometime soon (roughly 2000 years after the first coming), etc., etc,. etc.! It is that entire system of thought that I believe is wrong. It won't come to anything and it is not being "confirmed" by any "prophetic signs" involving Tim Tebow and things like that.

Now I know what it is like to see the world through magic eyes - that's where I was when I first discovered gematria and the Bible Wheel. It was very heady stuff. But one thing I never fell into was the idea that the "end times" were happening now or that I was seeing anything "prophetic" in that sense. I always felt the "connections" I saw were about underlying patterns in the cosmic mind, or Mind of God as I used to call it. I stayed away from the idea that our particular generation was the special object of prophecy because I noticed that as the most common error in this kind of study, and I also knew that I had no solid reason to believe it. So I just clung to those things that I could establish with good, solid reasons. And that has provided me with an unshakeable foundation.



I have many, many stories of "prophetic" things. Another example is a good friend being shown a vision of a woman's face, seeing exactly what she looked like, and being told audibly where she was at the moment, and a simple message that God wanted to convey to her. I went along with my friend, found her in a downtown bar (where we were told she would be...), gave her the message, to which she responded by breaking down in tears because she was seeking that specific answer at that moment... Many, many stories along these lines. It's all for good. But most don't "walk" in that, so they have never seen or experienced those things, therefore since THEY haven't experienced it first-hand, they "discount" it as invalid.

~Deb
I have absolutely no reason to doubt you have experienced things like that. But they are not something you can very well share with others, and it is a HUGE mistake to use such stories to validate you personal eschatological views or interpretations of Scripture.

Great chatting! I think we are making some progress on coming to a mutual understanding.

Richard

kathryn
12-18-2011, 10:28 PM
I didn't think it was something you were deliberately doing. I'm just trying to help you understand what might help others to understand what you are saying. You are mixing together Christian metaphors with all sorts of metaphors that strike me at very odd angles, and when I try to pursue what they might mean, we usually end up in confusion and a failure to understand.

Do you take time to consider what your words might sound like to someone who is not immediately aware of specific things going on in your head? (That's the rest of us, you know! :winking0071: )

Yes...I know that it comes across as very strange at first...but there are a few that do understand immediately...and so maybe we're all nuts:hysterical: But hey...weez havin a blast! :lol:This is how I learned scripture and of course it was already integrated with my physical life, because it was through my body, the functions of my body...bugs, plants etc. that I understood. I had to learn from the witness in creation and only then, was I able to unravel the written Logos. Not by choice...and believe me...it was hell when i was in church, because I would stand up with the derndest things and they were all much too kind (or dumbfounded) to tell me.

These "christian metphors" are the metaphor of typology..and typology all is based on the physical creation and in particular, our body/temple...so while it sounds like a mixture at first, it's only because we haven't seen how they are integrated...and we still have those "christian-eeze" mindsets that keep us from the "plain", in your face examples of the Word made Flesh.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-18-2011, 10:30 PM
Of course I am speaking of the entire Living Universe when I speak of the unity of all. The thing about the Universe is that I used to think it was just made up of "dead matter" like atoms, planets, stars and galaxies. Now I see it as a manifestation of Living Mind and Consciousness.

But when you speak of events in the heavenlies relating to things that you happen to be talking about I see that as a very idiosyncratic phenomenon because you could be talking about anyone of the quadrillions of quadrillions of possible things and look in the newspaper and see things that confirm whatever it is you are thinking about. So how is that "prophetic?" On the other hand, synchronicities are amazing meaningful coincidences that we all experience when we begin to "tune in" to the Living Cosmos so it's all good, it's just that what strikes you as "prophetic" might not be particularly meaningful to anyone else. So it's the sifting through the ten thousand things to find that which is more broadly meaningful that I find interesting. Too much idiosyncratic stuff, or things that fit superficially with something tends to feel like it occludes the light more than focuses it. Ok...we'll call it synchronicity, but the fact is....we have been stressing the LOVE/JOY of God, which was followed by an understanding of the TAIL being decapitated and becoming the Head/tongue. That very day, the comet lost its tail....decaptiated. The following day, we spoke of the TWO tails which Samson placed face to face and passed the firebrand between them. THAT very day, the site showed the comet with TWO tails. Today, I woke up with a dream of stick figures dancing or weaving around each other, which I posted. This was followed by the site this morning, saying the comets tail was moving in magnetic harmony with the sun...or dancing, if you will. I have seen this happen so many times now, that I don't question it. So...whether or not it is meaningful to anyone else means nothing...It's just much more exciting when you are sharing it with someone who is seeing the same thing. (and thanks for the encouragement Deb! )

So .. with all that ... what is it that you think is significant about all these things you've been talking about (Tim Tebow, Lovejoy comet, etc.)?

Yes, synchronicity is a great word for such things. That's the funny thing about synchronicity - we often recognize it but don't really know "what it means." Now I totally understand why these synchronicities would be meaningful to you. If I saw similar things they would be meaningful to me. But I never saw the significance of Samson and the fox tails or what that really had to do with anything, so the comet didn't seem significant either. It all looks like random associations based on assumptions I don't share. For example, you entire interpretation of the "two works of Christ" is not something that I see in Scripture. You assert things like "Christ is plural" in Revelation but that's not what the text actually states. It's just something that you have "constructed" and then built a mountain of associated ideas around. But other people would start with different assumptions and they would build a different mountain of associations that they would believe "proved" their interpretation. So after a while, we see a whole mountain range of different peaks built upon different sets of assumptions. Why should I believe one is right over another? And I can't follow the logic of your synchronicities because they are based upon you assumptions which I don't necessarily share. That's why I said we need to establish a foundation of agreement before we could come to a mutual understanding about anything.

debz
12-18-2011, 10:31 PM
I understand how you made those connections and that meaning of "prophetic" and that's what I thought you meant. But I don't agree with your foundational premise that there is a "remnant company in our day." And that shows why those kinds of connections are not very helpful - they only "confirm" what you already believe. And since similar connections can be found by anyone to confirm anything, there is something fundamentally uninteresting about them to me.


Yes, and that's a perfect example of the point I am trying to make. You have a mountain of "end times assumptions" about some sort of "second coming" and some sort of "remnant" and that it's all supposed to be coming down in "our generation" meaning sometime soon (roughly 2000 years after the first coming), etc., etc,. etc.! It is that entire system of thought that I believe is wrong. It won't come to anything and it is not being "confirmed" by any "prophetic signs" involving Tim Tebow and things like that.

Now I know what it is like to see the world through magic eyes - that's where I was when I first discovered gematria and the Bible Wheel. It was very heady stuff. But one thing I never fell into was the idea that the "end times" were happening now or that I was seeing anything "prophetic" in that sense. I always felt the "connections" I saw were about underlying patterns in the cosmic mind, or Mind of God as I used to call it. I stayed away from the idea that our particular generation was the special object of prophecy because I noticed that as the most common error in this kind of study, and I also knew that I had no solid reason to believe it. So I just clung to those things that I could establish with good, solid reasons. And that has provided me with an unshakeable foundation.


I have absolutely no reason to doubt you have experienced things like that. But they are not something you can very well share with others, and it is a HUGE mistake to use such stories to validate you personal eschatological views or interpretations of Scripture.

Great chatting! I think we are making some progress on coming to a mutual understanding.

Richard

Hi Richard...

Yes, I think we are making a little progress. Let me reiterate a couple things that I am not sure if you ever "heard" from me. For one, I am not a "futurist" in the sense that most are described. I do not believe in "end times" in the sense that most describe. I just want to see if you caught that understanding from me, because if you didn't, it would cloud your view of "what" I am trying to say...


There was one response you made to me that you seemed interested in knowing more about...I said something about not being in agreement with how the "fulfillment" of things would be ... and you said that would be interesting.... wish I could remember where that was :dontknow:

Also...when I speak of a "remnant" -- I do NOT believe they are "better than" others, or elitist in any way....they are just those who will give their all to discover the "PLAN" and be part of that PLAN... the PLAN we are trying to show you (which I fully believe is the interpretation of your dreams....")

It is available to ALL to understand...but not everyone will understand right away...there are many scriptures I can pull out to validate that....and I have, in various posts, but I feel like I'm walking a thin line between sounding "know-it-all" and condescending, and trying to encourage ALL to reach this same understanding themselves.....


I really want ALL to "SEE" this!!!!

Deb

Richard Amiel McGough
12-18-2011, 10:43 PM
Gosh, I'm just trying to figure out where in the Scriptures that the subconscious mind is the Holy of Holies? :dontknow:

How come everyone seems to understand this stuff except me? If you do, I really feel stupid. According to Kat, I am supposed to study the Law and then it will all come clear. I mean cervix, vagina, penis, poop, Satan is divided, we are divided, we are between two realms or waters, Satan is wisdom divided, Lil' Red Riding Hood, goodies under the skirt!! Lord Jesus, how have I missed all this stuff????


Somebody throw me a Life Preserver or give me a copy of the Bible you are reading!!!:eek:

242
Whatchya talking about? You knows I aint been understanding nuttin any betteran youz!

But I am understanding a little better the more Kathryn and I talk. The thing is, I am understanding that very little of her stuff comes "from" the Bible. I think she is using the Bible like a Rorschach inkblot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_test). (No offense Kathryn! Just telling like I see it.) That's the thing about the Bible - it really is sufficiently inperspicuous as to allow for any interpretation anyone might desire.

Here's a great one. I see a screaming face, lot's of penises everywhere, a vagina, a couple tits with large nipples, poop, spitting cartoon faces to the left and right, a little cross. What do you see?

243

kathryn
12-18-2011, 10:45 PM
Yes, synchronicity is a great word for such things. That's the funny thing about synchronicity - we often recognize it but don't really know "what it means." Now I totally understand why these synchronicities would be meaningful to you. If I saw similar things they would be meaningful to me. But I never saw the significance of Samson and the fox tails or what that really had to do with anything, so the comet didn't seem significant either.You didn't read it? or you didn't see it? Do you remember the concept of the turning and reversal of the baby elephant at birth...the turning or reversal of the mind(repentance) , the turning or reversal of the circuit as it moves back to its source of power? The tails "face to face" through which Samson passed the firebrand, were like Elisha lying face to face on the Son. This is the expressing the consummation or integration...or the LOVEJOY. It all looks like random associations based on assumptions I don't share. For example, you entire interpretation of the "two works of Christ" is not something that I see in Scripture. You assert things like "Christ is plural" in Revelation but that's not what the text actually states.the name Christ is plural It's just something that you have "constructed" and then built a mountain of associated ideas around.That's an opinion. It would be much nicer if you said "it seems".:)..but even then, it isn't satisfactory, because I have yet to be unable to provide at least 3 other witnesses in scripture , tracing them through the 3 phases of redemption...which meets the biblical criteria for determining Truth/rightly dividing the Word. So...that's a pretty amazing feat for random assumptions, wouldn't you think? I might be able to carry on with a few good connections for a short period of time, but this not only confirms itself, it grows, expands and others are growing and expanding with it which in turn, grows and expands my understanding. Random associations don't produce Life. Nor are they self confirming and consistently so. And neither do they have a comet witnessing to the concepts...and I also have given two witnesses of this. (Comet Holmes/eye of Satan/al Gol) But other people would start with different assumptions and they would build a different mountain of associations that they would believe "proved" their interpretation. So after a while, we see a whole mountain range of different peaks built upon different sets of assumptions. Why should I believe one is right over another? And I can't follow the logic of your synchronicities because they are based upon you assumptions which I don't necessarily share. That's why I said we need to establish a foundation of agreement before we could come to a mutual understanding about anything.and i agreed.

kathryn
12-18-2011, 10:56 PM
Just have some patience with me Richard. If I am speaking Truth , it will be witnessed to in both the written logos and the Word made Flesh in Creation, confirming one another. The minute...the very second...you find I can't do this, I'll eat my socks...and maybe yours.:lol: You can mail them to me...and I'll do it over skype so you can watch every hideous bite. :p Maybe LoveJoy's Dance today, was the finale. Maybe not...but I will bet you, that we're going to see a further witness in the heavenlies, that will confirm what we've been speaking of. If LoveJoy was dancing today...I would think it will express the consummation to follow, in some manner. Perhaps a magnefication of light...as Comet Holmes astonished scientists with. (and they still cant explain).

heb13-13
12-18-2011, 10:59 PM
Sure Kathryn,

I see those things and have read Song of Solomon. But, people don't talk this way. Why didn't the Apostles talk this way to us in their letters? Not one letter in the New Testament talks this way. They don't talk the way you talk and they don't talk in numbers. If we are going to communicate shouldn't we communicate along the lines of how they did in the Bible?

Is it possible that you are over-typing (as in typology), these things?

Also, because you say "God is in all creation" (and I still don't know what you mean by that) it is almost as if it gives you license to MIX all kinds of things with scripture. Mixture is not always good, you know.

You seem to be able to do just about anything with numbers and signs and football players. So, let me tell you some significance I found in Sonny Jurgensen and tell me if it resonates with you.

Did you know that Sonny Jurgensen was the best quarterback to ever wear the number 9? 9 = 3 x 3

Vince Lombardi once stated of Sonny Jurgensen: "Jurgensen is a great quarterback. He hangs in there under adverse conditions. He may be the best the league has ever seen. He is the best I have ever seen."*

Sonny played seven years with the Philadelphia Eagles and eleven years with the Washington Redskins. (NFL career spanned the years 1957 to 1974.) He was a five time Pro Bowl selection, once while an Eagle and four times while a Redskin (1961, 1964, 1966, 1967, 1969.)

He was inducted into the Professional Football Hall of Fame in 1983, after amassing 255 career touchdown passes, 32,224 career passing yards, and a QB rating of 82.6, while winning the NFL passing title three times (once as a 40 year old.)

Did you know......Jurgensen was coached by Vince Lombardi as a member of the 1969 Redskins (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_ff3=9&pub=5574720091&toolid=10001&campid=5336044875&customid=1969+Redskins&icep_uq=1969+Redskins&icep_sellerId=&icep_ex_kw=&icep_sortBy=12&icep_catId=&icep_minPrice=&icep_maxPrice=&ipn=psmain&icep_vectorid=229466&kwid=902099&mtid=824&kw=lg)http://rover.ebay.com/roverimp/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?ff3=9&pub=5574720091&toolid=10001&campid=5336044875&customid=1969+Redskins&uq=1969+Redskins&mpt=[CACHEBUSTER]?


Ok, so we have some significant numbers here and the fact that his name begins with SON-ny. Do you see what I am seeing? H

Now his last name means "Mean, evil, rough" and this is simply the SON-ny overcoming the Flesh (Mean, evil, rough) and securing salvation to all who trust in Him.

SON-ny holds the NFL passing title 3 times. That reminds me of the 3 main titles of Jesus Christ (Our Passover Lamb, Head of the Church and Captain of our Salvation) and one of them has to do with Passing. Rather "passing over" all of those who are covered in the blood. Did you know the Washington Redskins jersey is blood red? The 2nd title that Jesus holds is that he is the head of the Church and a quarterback is the head of the 11 players on the field. I am counting 11 players as in 11 Apostles because Paul came later. Paul is actually the place kicker who comes into the game later to score extra points and Paul indeed did come in to the "game" later. So Jesus has 3 main titles just like Sonny. He holds the Passing title, the Head or Quarterback of the Church (team) who calls the signals and Sonny was the Captain of the team. Jesus is also our Captain.

He is number 9 correlates with spoke 9, Tet and the Goodness of God and believe me Redskins fans were always thanking God for SON-ny.

11 years he was with the Redskins which syncs with 2 Thessalonians 1:11, which is on spoke 9.

Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thess 1:11

There are other significant numbers that I bolded and I will rely on you to tell me about them.

I don't know if this scored a touchdown or not with you, but I would be interested to know if I even get a field goal out of it.

Hopefully you understand what I am trying to communicate to you.

All the best, sweet Kat.
Rick

debz
12-18-2011, 11:04 PM
.... I can't follow the logic of your synchronicities because they are based upon you assumptions which I don't necessarily share. That's why I said we need to establish a foundation of agreement before we could come to a mutual understanding about anything.

Richard, Kathryn....I think we've been at this place several times in the past few weeks, no??

Kathryn...he is not seeing what you are trying to show him! Sorry!!!

Richard, you were starting to see a bit of the Tabernacle typology, no???

Why don't we focus on that? That is clear, and it is something Richard recognizes and we can build on! (and not the priest with his penis in the thighs....sorry...!!....let's stick with the basics of the realms for now because nobody is understanding you, to say the least...I don't even agree that it's ALL about "the mind" ... there is much more to it...but we have to reach some points of agreement and understanding to build on, and we've said that quite a few times recently, but keep coming back to these discussions that nobody understands, and everyone is getting weirded-out about! Again, SORRY!!!)

For what it's worth, and I'm not trying to be condescending in any way, but there really is truth to the words that you can't give people meat when they are still on a diet of milk...this will be regurgitated by them, and that is exactly what is happening. Let's move from milk, to veggies, and then eventually meat, when they are ready for it....they cannot "see" what you "see" -- nor may they ever -- because some are the "eyes" in the body...but even the eyes need to learn how to communicate clearly/sound a clear trumpet blast, or nobody will respond. I think Kathryn and I need to work on communicating more clearly in that aspect.

Deb

Richard Amiel McGough
12-18-2011, 11:10 PM
Yes, synchronicity is a great word for such things. That's the funny thing about synchronicity - we often recognize it but don't really know "what it means." Now I totally understand why these synchronicities would be meaningful to you. If I saw similar things they would be meaningful to me. But I never saw the significance of Samson and the fox tails or what that really had to do with anything, so the comet didn't seem significant either.You didn't read it? or you didn't see it? Do you remember the concept of the turning and reversal of the baby elephant at birth...the turning or reversal of the mind(repentance) , the turning or reversal of the circuit as it moves back to its source of power? The tails "face to face" through which Samson passed the firebrand, were like Elisha lying face to face on the Son. This is the expressing the consummation or integration...or the LOVEJOY. It all looks like random associations based on assumptions I don't share.

I looked at the baby elephant in Oz, but again, it doesn't ring any bells. This is what happens if too many "random" associations are made. There's no way to discern between the "signal" and the "noise." Here is what you had written about Samson and the foxes:
We see it(satan) in the irritant that forms the pearl in the oyster....and the fly or insect that has been petrified in the midst of amber. ( hardened tree sap). When the curse is lifted from the Serpent..(wisdom)..., it eats its tail, forming the Wall (Chet..8) of Fire around the Mother/Bride. It is a DOUBLE "wall...when the "8" is "folded" or laid one over the other. (As Elisha laid "hand(kaf) to hand" eye to eye, mouth to mouth, on the son, raising him from the dead, by the power of the double witness. (True Unity in One) It is also the TWO gold bracelets, given to Rebekah at her betrothal

We see this concept in the story of Samson. He takes the TAILS of the foxes (vain (futile/impotent) imaginations that spoil the "vineyard"), ties them together and sets them on fire. :

Jdg 15:4 And Samson went and caught three hundred foxes, and took firebrands, and TURNED (repentance..TURN(change the mind) tail to tail, and put a firebrand in the midst between TWO tails. 300 is the numerical weight of the Holy Spirit


I don't "see Satan in the irritant that forms the pearl in the oyster." That's a HUGE imposition of a very personal and idiosyncratic understanding that you just throw out there like it's something everyone would know. And then you say it's the same thing as an insect trapped in amber, when that's a TOTALLY different concept! So now I've got smoke coming out my ears with random associations that are not coherent, and I'm only two sentences in. So then you make an assertion about when the "curse is lifted" and Satan will now eat his tail to make a wall of fire? And the circle is folded to make a figure 8 ... etc. And then you assert that the tails of the foxes that Samson tied are supposed to by symbols of vain imaginations? Where did that come from? Why can't you see that other people would make different connections? And every occurrence of "turn" does not imply repentance! What about turning away from God? And what about just "turning" without any reference to God at all, as in the case of turning them tail to tail so he could tie them together?

Personally, I think you find this activity to be very satisfying because it gives you the feeling of "seeing" into the Divine Mind. But for what? For all these "connections" what have you really learned? In a word - what does it all mean?



For example, you entire interpretation of the "two works of Christ" is not something that I see in Scripture. You assert things like "Christ is plural" in Revelation but that's not what the text actually states.the name Christ is plural

Why do you say that? The word Christ is singular.



It's just something that you have "constructed" and then built a mountain of associated ideas around.That's an opinion. It would be much nicer if you said "it seems".:)

I have said "It seems" a million times in my posts to you. That should go without saying now.



..but even then, it isn't satisfactory, because I have yet to be unable to provide at least 3 other witnesses in scripture , tracing them through the 3 phases of redemption...which meets the biblical criteria for determining Truth/rightly dividing the Word. So...that's a pretty amazing feat for random assumptions, wouldn't you think? I might be able to carry on with a few good connections for a short period of time, but this not only confirms itself, it grows, expands and others are growing and expanding with it which in turn, grows and expands my understanding. Random associations don't produce Life. Nor are they self confirming and consistently so. And neither do they have a comet witnessing to the concepts...and I also have given two witnesses of this. (Comet Holmes/eye of Satan/al Gol)

I have no idea what you think you have proven with "3 witnesses." If it made sense to me, I'd be the first to tell you! So rather than continuous repeating that you have given all the evidence necessary, maybe you should ask yourself why it doesn't make sense to other folks like Rick, Rose, and Richard. Hummm ... maybe it just doesn't make sense to people whose name starts with an R! That might be it! :p



But other people would start with different assumptions and they would build a different mountain of associations that they would believe "proved" their interpretation. So after a while, we see a whole mountain range of different peaks built upon different sets of assumptions. Why should I believe one is right over another? And I can't follow the logic of your synchronicities because they are based upon you assumptions which I don't necessarily share. That's why I said we need to establish a foundation of agreement before we could come to a mutual understanding about anything.and i agreed.
Then let's do it. Find the foundation of agreement.

kathryn
12-18-2011, 11:11 PM
Sure Kathryn,

I see those things and have read Song of Solomon. But, people don't talk this way. Why didn't the Apostles talk this way to us in their letters? Not one letter in the New Testament talks this way. They don't talk the way you talk and they don't talk in numbers. If we are going to communicate shouldn't we communicate along the lines of how they did in the Bible? No..because there were many things Jesus said they could "not bear" to hear at that time. They were at the very beginning of the refining process, and still seeing through a glass darkly. Jesus didn't go back into the written Logos to explain Himself...he used examples in nature...and parables. Why do you think He used parables...and didn't just come out and say...I represent the High Priest as the circumcised heart/penis? Because of where they were in their understanding...still drinking the milk of the word. Paul, I believe it was Paul, tried to get them away from the foundational milk...but most were unwilling or unable to hear it.

Is it possible that you are over-typing (as in typology), these things? well Rick...if you think I am, it's high time you took something I've related, and show me the biblical witnesses that disprove it. (and at least one in Creation)

Also, because you say "God is in all creation" (and I still don't know what you mean by that) it is almost as if it gives you license to MIX all kinds of things with scripture. Mixture is not always good, you know.no...mixture is deadly. If you read romans chapter one....it states that God's first and intended witness to His character and purposes, was His Creation. Scripture says that Christ is IN AND THROUGH ALL THINGS. ALL things. What is left out of that equation?

You seem to be able to do just about anything with numbers and signs and football players. So, let me tell you some significance I found in Sonny Jurgensen and tell me if it resonates with you.

Did you know that Sonny Jurgensen was the best quarterback to ever wear the number 9? 9 = 3 x 3

Vince Lombardi once stated of Sonny Jurgensen: "Jurgensen is a great quarterback. He hangs in there under adverse conditions. He may be the best the league has ever seen. He is the best I have ever seen."*

Sonny played seven years with the Philadelphia Eagles and eleven years with the Washington Redskins. (NFL career spanned the years 1957 to 1974.) He was a five time Pro Bowl selection, once while an Eagle and four times while a Redskin (1961, 1964, 1966, 1967, 1969.)

He was inducted into the Professional Football Hall of Fame in 1983, after amassing 255 career touchdown passes, 32,224 career passing yards, and a QB rating of 82.6, while winning the NFL passing title three times (once as a 40 year old.)

Did you know......Jurgensen was coached by Vince Lombardi as a member of the 1969 Redskins (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_ff3=9&pub=5574720091&toolid=10001&campid=5336044875&customid=1969+Redskins&icep_uq=1969+Redskins&icep_sellerId=&icep_ex_kw=&icep_sortBy=12&icep_catId=&icep_minPrice=&icep_maxPrice=&ipn=psmain&icep_vectorid=229466&kwid=902099&mtid=824&kw=lg)http://rover.ebay.com/roverimp/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?ff3=9&pub=5574720091&toolid=10001&campid=5336044875&customid=1969+Redskins&uq=1969+Redskins&mpt=[CACHEBUSTER]?


Ok, so we have some significant numbers here and the fact that his name begins with SON-ny. Do you see what I am seeing? H

Now his last name means "Mean, evil, rough" and this is simply the SON-ny overcoming the Flesh (Mean, evil, rough) and securing salvation to all who trust in Him.

SON-ny holds the NFL passing title 3 times. That reminds me of the 3 main titles of Jesus Christ (Our Passover Lamb, Head of the Church and Captain of our Salvation) and one of them has to do with Passing. Rather "passing over" all of those who are covered in the blood. Did you know the Washington Redskins jersey is blood red? The 2nd title that Jesus holds is that he is the head of the Church and a quarterback is the head of the 11 players on the field. I am counting 11 players as in 11 Apostles because Paul came later. Paul is actually the place kicker who comes into the game later to score extra points and Paul indeed did come in to the "game" later. So Jesus has 3 main titles just like Sonny. He holds the Passing title, the Head or Quarterback of the Church (team) who calls the signals and Sonny was the Captain of the team. Jesus is also our Captain.

He is number 9 correlates with spoke 9, Tet and the Goodness of God and believe me Redskins fans were always thanking God for SON-ny.

11 years he was with the Redskins which syncs with 2 Thessalonians 1:11, which is on spoke 9.

Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thess 1:11

There are other significant numbers that I bolded and I will rely on you to tell me about them.

I don't know if this scored a touchdown or not with you, but I would be interested to know if I even get a field goal out of it.Of course you get a field goal!!:lol: ALL of us are One...we are all given as unique expression of the ONE. Our names and statistics will express the whole process of redemption...the rough parts and the redemptive ones...the carnal and divine.

Hopefully you understand what I am trying to communicate to you.

All the best, sweet Kat.
Rick

debz
12-18-2011, 11:21 PM
Everyone's responding at the same time... Richard, all, see my Post #165...

Richard Amiel McGough
12-18-2011, 11:21 PM
Richard, Kathryn....I think we've been at this place several times in the past few weeks, no??

Kathryn...he is not seeing what you are trying to show him! Sorry!!!

Richard, you were starting to see a bit of the Tabernacle typology, no???

Why don't we focus on that? That is clear, and it is something Richard recognizes and we can build on! (and not the priest with his penis in the thighs....sorry...!!....let's stick with the basics of the realms for now because nobody is understanding you, to say the least...I don't even agree that it's ALL about "the mind" ... there is much more to it...but we have to reach some points of agreement and understanding to build on, and we've said that quite a few times recently, but keep coming back to these discussions that nobody understands, and everyone is getting weirded-out about! Again, SORRY!!!)

For what it's worth, and I'm not trying to be condescending in any way, but there really is truth to the words that you can't give people meat when they are still on a diet of milk...this will be regurgitated by them, and that is exactly what is happening. Let's move from milk, to veggies, and then eventually meat, when they are ready for it....they cannot "see" what you "see" -- nor may they ever -- because some are the "eyes" in the body...but even the eyes need to learn how to communicate clearly/sound a clear trumpet blast, or nobody will respond. I think Kathryn and I need to work on communicating more clearly in that aspect.

Deb
Hey there Deb,

I really think we should avoid judging others as failing to understand because they are "babies" who can only drink milk. That would not be helpful even if it were true, which it most definitely is not.

I agree that it would help a lot if you and Kathryn focused more on how to communicate your insights.

As it is, there is too much "noise" for me to follow the conversations. A host of strange assumptions and discordant concepts are tossed out in every post. And when I try to make sense of them, the conversation quickly degrades into a back and forth blah-blah with less and less understanding in each exchange.

I'll take a look at the Tabernacle typology thread to see how things look over there.

All the best,

Richard

kathryn
12-18-2011, 11:21 PM
I looked at the baby elephant in Oz, but again, it doesn't ring any bells. This is what happens if too many "random" associations are made. There's no way to discern between the "signal" and the "noise." Here is what you had written about Samson and the foxes:
We see it(satan) in the irritant that forms the pearl in the oyster....and the fly or insect that has been petrified in the midst of amber. ( hardened tree sap). When the curse is lifted from the Serpent..(wisdom)..., it eats its tail, forming the Wall (Chet..8) of Fire around the Mother/Bride. It is a DOUBLE "wall...when the "8" is "folded" or laid one over the other. (As Elisha laid "hand(kaf) to hand" eye to eye, mouth to mouth, on the son, raising him from the dead, by the power of the double witness. (True Unity in One) It is also the TWO gold bracelets, given to Rebekah at her betrothal

We see this concept in the story of Samson. He takes the TAILS of the foxes (vain (futile/impotent) imaginations that spoil the "vineyard"), ties them together and sets them on fire. :

Jdg 15:4 And Samson went and caught three hundred foxes, and took firebrands, and TURNED (repentance..TURN(change the mind) tail to tail, and put a firebrand in the midst between TWO tails. 300 is the numerical weight of the Holy Spirit


I don't "see Satan in the irritant that forms the pearl in the oyster." That's a HUGE imposition of a very personal and idiosyncratic understanding that you just throw out there like it's something everyone would know. Actually Richard, I think Bob, Deb and Len can assure you that this was enlarged on in former posts. This is why it's so important to stop someone and ask what they mean. We miss alot when we do this...because we can make judgements that keep us from hearing some pretty amazing stuff. I can tell you that my ego is completely gone in this. If I sound arrogant in making these claims, I can't help it. This is how I was demonstrated these things...and I've seen them proved and confirmed over and over. The only attachment I have to it...is excitement. And then you say it's the same thing as an insect trapped in amber, when that's a TOTALLY different concept!How is that? They are both semi-precious stones with a irritant in the center. The gates of the NJ are pearl, the Amber is around the throne (mind/heart) where beelzebub the fly, once accused the brethern. Both the irritant and the fly were tools to renew our mind. So now I've got smoke coming out my ears with random associations that are not coherent, and I'm only two sentences in. So then you make an assertion about when the "curse is lifted" and Satan will now eat his tail to make a wall of fire? And the circle is folded to make a figure 8 ... etc. And then you assert that the tails of the foxes that Samson tied are supposed to by symbols of vain imaginations? Where did that come from? Why can't you see that other people would make different connections? And every occurrence of "turn" does not imply repentance! What about turning away from God? And what about just "turning" without any reference to God at all, as in the case of turning them tail to tail so he could tie them together? the turning is expressed in that two sided coin...AND the circuit. We move away from the source of power, before we return to it. I know this is alot. Sorry.

Personally, I think you find this activity to be very satisfying because it gives you the feeling of "seeing" into the Divine Mind. oh YEAH!!! For sure!! The more I see, the more I love Him (and myself and others. The more I see Him, the more I see the Unity of mankind. But for what?PURE, UNADULTERATED BLISS! IT IS RAVISHING!!! For all these "connections" what have you really learned? In a word - what does it all mean? The same as you've learned....that the foundation of the Universe IS LOVE AND JOY EVERLASTING, UNCONDITIONAL LOVE, UNITY


Why do you say that? The word Christ is singular. where are you taking that from?


I have said "It seems" a million times in my posts to you. That should go without saying now. remember those buttons Mr. On? A lady likes you to continually reassure her and speak gently.:) (the second knob from the right) :hysterical:


I have no idea what you think you have proven with "3 witnesses." If it made sense to me, I'd be the first to tell you! So rather than continuous repeating that you have given all the evidence necessary, maybe you should ask yourself why it doesn't make sense to other folks like Rick, Rose, and Richard. Hummm ... maybe it just doesn't make sense to people whose name starts with an R! That might be it!No...I wouldnt ask myself that because it would be redundant as I have no other way of doing it and...because it makes sense to me as its been proven...and I know I can release it to at least 3 others without worrying about the only way I know how to communicate it. And...as far as the 3 witnesses...whenever I have explained typology to someone who has given me a chance to get past point A....I have provided at least 3 confirming witnesses in typology as well as the confirming concept/context within scripture. If you haven't seen them, it hasnt because I haven't provided them...but because you haven't been keeping up with the conversation....or you haven't understood the Law in how it reveals the Christ and what exactly was fulfilled at the Cross. As I stated right at the beginning of the Matt. 17:27 thread....we would be heading into hidden territory...looking for buried treasure...not obvious , on the surface stuff. You agreed. :p


Then let's do it. Find the foundation of agreement.where would you like to start. You didn't seem to care much about dem goats and boids:-) They the KEY to unravelling all of the process of redemption and atonement...so we're stuck there.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-18-2011, 11:21 PM
Everyone's responding at the same time... Richard, all, see my Post #165...
Just answered it. See my post 169.

debz
12-18-2011, 11:25 PM
Hey there Deb,

I really think we should avoid judging others as failing to understand because they are "babies" who can only drink milk. That would not be helpful even if it were true, which it most definitely is not.

I agree that it would help a lot if you and Kathryn focused more on how to communicate your insights.

As it is, there is too much "noise" for me to follow the conversations. A host of strange assumptions and discordant concepts are tossed out in every post. And when I try to make sense of them, the conversation quickly degrades into a back and forth blah-blah with less and less understanding in each exchange.

I'll take a look at the Tabernacle typology thread to see how things look over there.

All the best,

Richard

Richard,

I have always hesitated to use those words for that reason. I am sorry. However, we do all realize that nothing is being communicated clearly, nor understood--right? So let's start there and, as you have said, find points of agreement to build on.

Deb

Richard Amiel McGough
12-18-2011, 11:31 PM
Richard,

I have always hesitated to use those words for that reason. I am sorry. However, we do all realize that nothing is being communicated clearly, nor understood--right? So let's start there and, as you have said, find points of agreement to build on.

Deb
Sounds good Deb.

The big problem is the assumptions that folks bring to the Bible. After years of "interpreting" that book, folks forget how many assumptions they have made. The whole "end times" stuff is just totally wrong in my estimation. People have been making false prophecies about the end times for TWO FREAKING THOUSAND YEARS! 2, :eek: :eek: :eek: YEARS! Why do people keep doing it, making the same false assumptions year after year after year???? And when all their false prophecies are proven false, what do they do? They just pick themselves up and start all over again! It just doesn't make any sense. It is the most pathetic pathology I have ever seen.

So where do you think we will find the foundation of agreement? Let's focus on that and see what we'll see.

debz
12-18-2011, 11:45 PM
Sounds good Deb.

The big problem is the assumptions that folks bring to the Bible. After years of "interpreting" that book, folks forget how many assumptions they have made. The whole "end times" stuff is just totally wrong in my estimation. People have been making false prophecies about the end times for TWO FREAKING THOUSAND YEARS! 2, :eek: :eek: :eek: YEARS! Why do people keep doing it, making the same false assumptions year after year after year???? And when all their false prophecies are proven false, what do they do? They just pick themselves up and start all over again! It just doesn't make any sense. It is the most pathetic pathology I have ever seen.

So where do you think we will find the foundation of agreement? Let's focus on that and see what we'll see.

OK, try to disregard the fact that I am associating this with Tebow, and just look at the following facts and see if we agree on anything here.... This is last post I made on Tebow Thread:

"I re-visited Spoke 22 and this is even more confirming to me. Also, I should probably point out that I believe Tebow is a "TYPE" or a "SIGN," it's not like I believe a bunch of people are going to become "like Tebow" -- I believe he is pointing to and confirming what is starting to unfold in our midst...and representative of the Bridal Company...like what Bob May, Kathryn, and I have been talking about on other threads, and the interpretation to the Dumbow dreams, particularly the one about "winning the Crown (of LIFE) in 15 steps ...

'T' in the Hebrew alphabet is represented by the Letter 'Tav.' It is the 22nd and final letter. The books Song of Songs, Acts, and Revelations are aligned with the 22nd letter and see the most frequency of use with this letter and associated words. Keywords associated with Tav are follows:

Tav: Mark, Sign, Cross
Tahm: Perfect, Complete, Whole, Undefiled
Tom: Perfection, Integrity, Completion, Moral Purity
Tamam: Accomplished, Completed, Finished, Done
Tamim: Perfect, Whole, Complete, Flawless
Tiklah: Perfection, Completion
Talah: To Hang, Crucify

In other words, the most highly associated key words predominantly speak of that place of 'Perfection,' the 'Most Holy Place' realm related to the time of 'Tabernacles' that we are crossing into now.

Spoke 22 (Tav) themes are:

'Sealed: the sign of the cross.' ('144,000 sealed' Rev 7:4)

'Consummation of God’s plan of the ages'

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. Rev 21:1-3

The Marriage Song: Union of Christ and His Bride

'Make haste, my beloved' e.g. Rev 22:6:

And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done (others say 'soon take place'). This has been one of the proof texts for supporting the Preterist view. I’ve always understood it to mean 'when it happens, it will happen quickly.' The Koine Greek expert translation supports that:

'And he said to me, ‘these words are faithful ones and true ones, and the Lord [= Yahweh] , the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent (or sends) His agent with a commission (as an envoy) to show (point out; exhibit) to his slaves things which of necessity must (it is binding to) come into being (be birthed; happen, occur) in speed (swiftness , quickness).' JMT

Coming in the Clouds -- Bob May unpacked this one nicely on this thread: (Post #292)

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2499-The-meaning-of-Matt-17-27-(Coin-from-the-mouth-of-a-fish)/page30&highlight=coming+clouds

Restitution of All Things – another KEY point.

"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. Acts 3:19-22

'All things' have not been restored yet. NOW is this period! Passover/Pentecost have been fulfilled, but Tabernacles never was—when Tabernacles is fulfilled, ALL things will be restored—to the conditions we had 'in the beginning.'

Again, I love this JMT Translation of Acts 3:19-22:
'Therefore, at once change your way of thinking (your frame of mind and point of view) and turn around toward [the situation for] your failures [errors; times of missing the target; sins) to be anointed out and wiped forth from your midst, so that seasons of cooling again, as well as fitting situations and fertile moments of refreshing would com from [the] face of the Lord [= Yahweh], and that He would send forth in (or: to, for, with) you folks the One having been handpicked beforehand to be ready and at hand, Christ Jesus, whom indeed it continues necessary and binding for heaven to welcome, accept and embrace (or: for [the] atmosphere to grant access, admit, receive and take to itself) until times of a movement away from all things that have been firmly put down, set and established and until the periods of successive events which occur in passing moments, moving all mankind away from having been placed and positioned down as well as from the state or condition of all things that had been determined from an indefinite period of time (or: from a [particular] age) – of which things God spoke (or: speaks) through [the] mouth of His set-apart prophets (those who speak light ahead of time).'

I have written extensively on how Paul wrote predominantly on these subjects--wanting "his children" to come into this "perfection" ... how he himself hadn't attained to it yet, but that is what he was "pressing on" towards, etc., etc., etc. There is a generation that is supposed to attain to this...there are many biblical prophecies (yet unfulfilled) related to this...prophecies about "tabernacles" etc. They are not understood correctly by "futurists" -- which is why it looks like all the "prophecies" have never been fulfilled (or were fulfilled 70 a.d. ...)_

Deb

Richard Amiel McGough
12-18-2011, 11:56 PM
OK, try to disregard the fact that I am associating this with Tebow, and just look at the following facts and see if we agree on anything here.... This is last post I made on Tebow Thread:

"I re-visited Spoke 22 and this is even more confirming to me. Also, I should probably point out that I believe Tebow is a "TYPE" or a "SIGN," it's not like I believe a bunch of people are going to become "like Tebow" -- I believe he is pointing to and confirming what is starting to unfold in our midst...and representative of the Bridal Company...like what Bob May, Kathryn, and I have been talking about on other threads, and the interpretation to the Dumbow dreams, particularly the one about "winning the Crown (of LIFE) in 15 steps ...

<snip>

I have written extensively on how Paul wrote predominantly on these subjects--wanting "his children" to come into this "perfection" ... how he himself hadn't attained to it yet, but that is what he was "pressing on" towards, etc., etc., etc. There is a generation that is supposed to attain to this...there are many biblical prophecies (yet unfulfilled) related to this...prophecies about "tabernacles" etc. They are not understood correctly by "futurists" -- which is why it looks like all the "prophecies" have never been fulfilled (or were fulfilled 70 a.d. ...)_


Hey Deb,

Everything you quoted about Tav is accurate. But where did you get the idea that there is a "Bridal Company" that is going to "unfold in our midst?" Why now and not a thousand years ago, or a thousand years in the future, or never at all? Where is the foundation of your interpretation? I know Paul talked about Christ being formed in individuals, but that does not mean it is going to be some big external event, or if it is, that it's going to be any kind of "Christian" event. Perhaps Paul just had an intuition about the global awakening that might be coming down the pike, sparked in part by the global brain-network aka internet and a few other things ...

The point of all this is that you have a HUGE set of assumptions built into your biblical interpretations. Maybe there's something else altogether different going on? That's why we need to strip things down to the bare bones so we know what we are assuming and what we have established on objective fact.

Richard

debz
12-19-2011, 12:12 AM
Hey Deb,

Everything you quoted about Tav is accurate. But where did you get the idea that there is a "Bridal Company" that is going to "unfold in our midst?" Why now and not a thousand years ago, or a thousand years in the future, or never at all? Where is the foundation of your interpretation? I know Paul talked about Christ being formed in individuals, but that does not mean it is going to be some big external event, or if it is, that it's going to be any kind of "Christian" event. Perhaps Paul just had an intuition about the global awakening that might be coming down the pike, sparked in part by the global brain-network aka internet and a few other things ...

The point of all this is that you have a HUGE set of assumptions built into your biblical interpretations. Maybe there's something else altogether different going on? That's why we need to strip things down to the bare bones so we know what we are assuming and what we have established on objective fact.

Richard

OK, this is good. Actually, "where" I got all this is written in that whole document I sent (the one on your "to-do" list, LOL)...but since you aren't reading it, I may have to re-write/copy-paste the whole thing onto the forum, THEN you might read it! :lol:

Part of the "why now" and "why not a thousand years ago" is represented in the Tabernacle/Temple blueprints that we discussed a bit before. The "Holy Place" represents the time of the Pentecost/church age, with dimensions of 2000 (2000 years since birth of church); the "Most Holy Place" represents Tabernacles/Kingdom age, with dimensions of 1000 (in Temple, dimensions 8000; still speaks to this, as 8 [renewal/resurrection] x 1000 [maturity]). Other measurement typology that speaks to this is the 7th "day" of 1000 years, and the 3rd "Day" since Jesus Christ....all brought out on other threads, and in more depth in my MS, but I think you've had this presented before, no?

The problem is that most people have an interpretation of what they believe is supposed to happen at this time, then they make predictions (Harold Camping, etc), and they don't come to pass...but I believe they may be close to understanding the timing, but just not the fulfillment....in other words, people had an expectation when Jesus came 2000 years ago of how things were going to be, how He would come, etc., but MOST were wrong~!

What did you think of that Koine Greek expert interpretation of what it means to "come quickly" -- ?? I've seen some of your eschatology posts saying that meant "He is coming SOON..." But I've always understood that to mean, when He "comes" it will be done quickly, as the JMT version supports.

Well, let's start with those couple of things--interpretation of "coming soon" vs. "will be swiftly" and the tabernacle/temples dimensions, 7th 1000-year day, 3rd "day" of Christ generation (42nd generation we've talked about in other posts...)

Deb

kathryn
12-19-2011, 12:25 AM
OK, this is good. Actually, "where" I got all this is written in that whole document I sent (the one on your "to-do" list, LOL)...but since you aren't reading it, I may have to re-write/copy-paste the whole thing onto the forum, THEN you might read it! :lol:

Part of the "why now" and "why not a thousand years ago" is represented in the Tabernacle/Temple blueprints that we discussed a bit before. The "Holy Place" represents the time of the Pentecost/church age, with dimensions of 2000 (2000 years since birth of church); the "Most Holy Place" represents Tabernacles/Kingdom age, with dimensions of 1000 (in Temple, dimensions 8000; still speaks to this, as 8 [renewal/resurrection] x 1000 [maturity]). Other measurement typology that speaks to this is the 7th "day" of 1000 years, and the 3rd "Day" since Jesus Christ....all brought out on other threads, and in more depth in my MS, but I think you've had this presented before, no?

The problem is that most people have an interpretation of what they believe is supposed to happen at this time, then they make predictions (Harold Camping, etc), and they don't come to pass...but I believe they may be close to understanding the timing, but just not the fulfillment....in other words, people had an expectation when Jesus came 2000 years ago of how things were going to be, how He would come, etc., but MOST were wrong~!

What did you think of that Koine Greek expert interpretation of what it means to "come quickly" -- ?? I've seen some of your eschatology posts saying that meant "He is coming SOON..." But I've always understood that to mean, when He "comes" it will be done quickly, as the JMT version supports.

Well, let's start with those couple of things--interpretation of "coming soon" vs. "will be swiftly" and the tabernacle/temples dimensions, 7th 1000-year day, 3rd "day" of Christ generation (42nd generation we've talked about in other posts...)

Deb

I promise to stay out of this...except to add a witness or two (as plainly as possible) and Deb, if you want me to just recede , just say so.:winking0071: I just wanted to add the 2000 cubits the ekklesia had to stay behind the ark. That is 50 (pentecost/Jubilee) x 40...(wilderness testing). The 2000 swine leaping off the cliff...are also a picture of the age of "mixture"..or the divided witness (cloven hooves) ending. (and the fullness or ripening of time)

debz
12-19-2011, 12:31 AM
I promise to stay out of this...except to add a witness or two (as plainly as possible) and Deb, if you want me to just recede , just say so.:winking0071: I just wanted to add the 2000 cubits the ekklesia had to stay behind the ark. That is 50 (pentecost/Jubilee) x 40...(wilderness testing). The 2000 swine leaping off the cliff...are also a picture of the age of "mixture"..or the divided witness (cloven hooves) ending. (and the fullness or ripening of time)

Yeh--that's good, Kathryn! There are other things, as well...but the more witnesses, the better!!

And you're right about the time of "mixture" -- it is speaking of that time when we "see in part, and know in part" ...but when the PERFECT comes (Most Holy Place time, Tabernacles time, etc., etc.), THEN we shall KNOW FULLY....

<3 Deb

P.S. ....swine jumping off the cliff = first instance of "deviled ham" :hysterical:

kathryn
12-19-2011, 12:39 AM
Yeh--that's good, Kathryn! There are other things, as well...but the more witnesses, the better!!

And you're right about the time of "mixture" -- it is speaking of that time when we "see in part, and know in part" ...but when the PERFECT comes (Most Holy Place time, Tabernacles time, etc., etc.), THEN we shall KNOW FULLY....

<3 Deb

P.S. ....swine jumping off the cliff = first instance of "deviled ham" :hysterical: HAR! yes! And....the "S" serpent...that becomes the WINE (when it's consumed its tail):lol:..the S WINE!

kathryn
12-19-2011, 09:59 AM
Spaceweather hasn't posted this morning's sightings of Comet LoveJoy yet. This is the earliest report I could find from an amateur astronomer. So far, it appears that LoveJoy is as bright, if not brighter after its "Baptism of Fire" . Stay tuned:-)

http://astrobob.areavoices.com/

Richard Amiel McGough
12-19-2011, 11:06 AM
OK, this is good. Actually, "where" I got all this is written in that whole document I sent (the one on your "to-do" list, LOL)...but since you aren't reading it, I may have to re-write/copy-paste the whole thing onto the forum, THEN you might read it! :lol:

Good morning Deb,

I don't think that would help since I'm pretty sure that your document will contain the same assumptions that I see in your posts. It's those assumptions that I don't accept.



Part of the "why now" and "why not a thousand years ago" is represented in the Tabernacle/Temple blueprints that we discussed a bit before. The "Holy Place" represents the time of the Pentecost/church age, with dimensions of 2000 (2000 years since birth of church); the "Most Holy Place" represents Tabernacles/Kingdom age, with dimensions of 1000 (in Temple, dimensions 8000; still speaks to this, as 8 [renewal/resurrection] x 1000 [maturity]). Other measurement typology that speaks to this is the 7th "day" of 1000 years, and the 3rd "Day" since Jesus Christ....all brought out on other threads, and in more depth in my MS, but I think you've had this presented before, no?

Where did you get the idea that the dimensions of the Holy Place are supposed to represent time? Do you have any way of confirming that assumption? It looks like you choose the 2000 because it happens to fit the time we are living. If it were the year 8000 you would obvious choose those dimensions to represent the time.

I'm sorry, but I cannot see any difference between your style of analysis and that of any other date setter such as Harold Camping. The same parallels are drawn. Any occurrence of a number around 2000 is taken as "proof" that Christ would return around 2000 years after his first coming. I've been watching these kinds of predictions come and go for years. They are always wrong, 100% of the time. It is a path of pure folly.



The problem is that most people have an interpretation of what they believe is supposed to happen at this time, then they make predictions (Harold Camping, etc), and they don't come to pass...but I believe they may be close to understanding the timing, but just not the fulfillment....in other words, people had an expectation when Jesus came 2000 years ago of how things were going to be, how He would come, etc., but MOST were wrong~!

What is different now than at any time in the past? Don't you know about the failed predictions? It began with the first apostles who predicted Christ would return in their own generation, and it has been going on like that ever since! The list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events) goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on ...!



What did you think of that Koine Greek expert interpretation of what it means to "come quickly" -- ?? I've seen some of your eschatology posts saying that meant "He is coming SOON..." But I've always understood that to mean, when He "comes" it will be done quickly, as the JMT version supports.

Well, let's start with those couple of things--interpretation of "coming soon" vs. "will be swiftly" and the tabernacle/temples dimensions, 7th 1000-year day, 3rd "day" of Christ generation (42nd generation we've talked about in other posts...)

Deb
We can't prove anything by appealing to different "Koine Greek experts" since we can always find some other expert who will disagree. And I wouldn't think you would want to go this route anyway since the experts are about 100 to 1 against your interpretation. And besides, your interpretation is logically incoherent because the text confirms its own interpretation by stating that the revelation was about events that must "shortly come to pass" because "the time is at hand." The idea that the prophecy was for the distant future is directly contradicted by the statement that the "time" was "at hand" in the first century. Furthermore, any intelligent author would know that putting these two time-indicators together in the same passage would strongly convey the idea that the events would happen "soon" for the "time was at hand." They are mutually confirming, and the only reason anyone would ever suggest otherwise is because they feel that the prophecies did not come to pass as predicted. No one would ever get such an idea from the text itself.

Furthermore, your suggestion that the Jesus was warning about events that would happen "really really fast" when they finally start sometime in the distant future also contradicts the fact that the events predicted in Revelation take three and half years to unfold. Indeed, they go so slowly that it requires the "patience of the saints" to persevere through them.

And besides all this, the identity of the "Great City" as apostate Jerusalem is stated plainly in Rev 11:8, and confirmed again in Rev 17-18 where she is described using terms that apply only to the Levitical Priesthood (scarlet, purple, find linen). And the prophecy against apostate Jerusalem from Jeremiah 25:10 is repeated and applied to the Great Harlot, and to top it all off, Christ's prophecy against apostate Jerusalem given just before the Olivet Discourse is fulfilled in Mystery Babylon:


Matthew 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias ...
Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

The case is exceedingly clear and compelling. The only way to avoid the obvious conclusion is to quibble over details. The Big Picture is as plain as day. The Olivet Discourse was a miniature version of the Book of Revelation. That's why scholars call it the "little Apocalypse." And we know it was fulfilled in the first century because Jesus predicated the fulfillment upon the destruction of the Temple which happened in 70 AD. These facts are far and away the greatest proof of the truth of Christianity. I've laid out all three versions in an article called The Synoptic Apocalypse (http://www.biblewheel.com/Theology/Olivet_Discourse.asp). You might find it of interest.

So ... this is where I'm coming from, and these are just a few of the reasons I reject absolutely any new date-setting predictions about the "end times."

All the best,

Richard

debz
12-19-2011, 12:50 PM
Good morning Deb,

I don't think that would help since I'm pretty sure that your document will contain the same assumptions that I see in your posts. It's those assumptions that I don't accept.

Hi Richard!

I think you’re making assumptions about my assumptions. You believe I adhere to common Futurist teaching, which I don’t. You believe I think there will be a 'rapture' that will physically remove Christians, but I don’t. You believe I think there will be an Antichrist world leader, he will force us to have '666' stamped on our hand or forehead, blah, blah, blah…. When I use the phrase 'end times,' it is only to associate with what most Christians believe. A better term, and what I use more often, is 'end of the age' – we are at ANOTHER 'End of Age' time (70 AD was one, this is another…).




Where did you get the idea that the dimensions of the Holy Place are supposed to represent time? Do you have any way of confirming that assumption? It looks like you choose the 2000 because it happens to fit the time we are living. If it were the year 8000 you would obvious choose those dimensions to represent the time.

It's not JUST the dimensions, it is the 7th day of a 1000 years; the 3rd day of the church, etc., etc. If you read my Tabernacle Blueprint, it shows many more relatoinships to how the "Holy Place" speaks of the time of "Pentecost"/church age....but you won't read it because, in your words, you can't get past my "assumptions" (which really aren't what YOU think they are!!)


I'm sorry, but I cannot see any difference between your style of analysis and that of any other date setter such as Harold Camping. The same parallels are drawn. Any occurrence of a number around 2000 is taken as "proof" that Christ would return around 2000 years after his first coming. I've been watching these kinds of predictions come and go for years. They are always wrong, 100% of the time. It is a path of pure folly.


What is different now than at any time in the past? Don't you know about the failed predictions? It began with the first apostles who predicted Christ would return in their own generation, and it has been going on like that ever since! The list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events) goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on ...!

I TOTALLY understand that, and I am in agreement with you, actually! You have not really been listening to what I am saying, because you are tuning me out based on my "assumptions" that you think I have...



We can't prove anything by appealing to different "Koine Greek experts" since we can always find some other expert who will disagree. And I wouldn't think you would want to go this route anyway since the experts are about 100 to 1 against your interpretation.

I don't have the time right now to go into this...but this translation that I am referring to simply expands all the ways the words can be expressed, based on tenses, etc., etc...




And besides, your interpretation is logically incoherent because the text confirms its own interpretation by stating that the revelation was about events that must "shortly come to pass" because "the time is at hand." The idea that the prophecy was for the distant future is directly contradicted by the statement that the "time" was "at hand" in the first century. Furthermore, any intelligent author would know that putting these two time-indicators together in the same passage would strongly convey the idea that the events would happen "soon" for the "time was at hand." They are mutually confirming, and the only reason anyone would ever suggest otherwise is because they feel that the prophecies did not come to pass as predicted. No one would ever get such an idea from the text itself.

Furthermore, your suggestion that the Jesus was warning about events that would happen "really really fast" when they finally start sometime in the distant future also contradicts the fact that the events predicted in Revelation take three and half years to unfold. Indeed, they go so slowly that it requires the "patience of the saints" to persevere through them.

And besides all this, the identity of the "Great City" as apostate Jerusalem is stated plainly in Rev 11:8, and confirmed again in Rev 17-18 where she is described using terms that apply only to the Levitical Priesthood (scarlet, purple, find linen). And the prophecy against apostate Jerusalem from Jeremiah 25:10 is repeated and applied to the Great Harlot, and to top it all off, Christ's prophecy against apostate Jerusalem given just before the Olivet Discourse is fulfilled in Mystery Babylon:


Matthew 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias ...
Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

The case is exceedingly clear and compelling. The only way to avoid the obvious conclusion is to quibble over details. The Big Picture is as plain as day. The Olivet Discourse was a miniature version of the Book of Revelation. That's why scholars call it the "little Apocalypse." And we know it was fulfilled in the first century because Jesus predicated the fulfillment upon the destruction of the Temple which happened in 70 AD. These facts are far and away the greatest proof of the truth of Christianity. I've laid out all three versions in an article called The Synoptic Apocalypse (http://www.biblewheel.com/Theology/Olivet_Discourse.asp). You might find it of interest.

So ... this is where I'm coming from, and these are just a few of the reasons I reject absolutely any new date-setting predictions about the "end times."

All the best,

Richard

I read your stuff, but disagree with the totally literal analysis. Revelations cannot be undertsood that way. However, I have no problem agreeing that early AD was the 'end of the AGE' (not end of the world, but end of the AGE. And we could pinpoint 70 a.d. for that matter, as you have pointed out). That was also the beginning of HIS COMING (parousia). That is also what is spoken of in Revelation as being 'at hand' or 'available now' if Revelation (an unveiling) takes place in anyone who can receive it. You are not HEARING what we are trying to explain about this.

'The Harvest' is also referred to as happening at the end of the Age. This hasn’t occurred yet. There are many things prophesied that have not occurred yet!! Jesus spoke this about the Harvest at the 'End of the Age'—Mt 13:39 says 'the harvest is the end of the age.' Here is JMT rendering of this passage, starting in v 37:

37 'So He, setting forth a reply giving discernment, said, 'The person habitually sowing the fine, ideal seed is the Son of the man (or: mankind’s son; = the son of Adam; = the human). 38 'Now the field is the organized System (the ordered arrangement; the world; the world of religion as well as of economy, culture, and government in the secular; = the realm of society). As for the fine, ideal seed, these are the sons of the reign (= the produce and resulting situation which have the kingdom as their source and origin; the offspring who are the reign; = those things having the character and quality of the kingdom and are associated with its reign). Yet the weeds are the sons of the worthless person or the disadvantageous circumstance (or: the sons whose source and origin is the one who brings pain and misery through hard labor; the produce whose character and quality are malevolent and wicked; the sons of the evil one; or: offspring of the difficult and wearisome situation [the predicament of mankind?]; the bad environment; may = the result of the work of a worthless person [perhaps: the words of a religious person]).
39. 'And now the enemy (the hostile person) – the person sowing them – is the adversary (the person who will thrust something through you; or: the 'devil'). And then [the] harvest is [the] bringing of the parts together to one destined end (or: a combined final act; a purposed consummation; a putting together of the final product; a joining of all aspects into the fruition of the goal) of an age, but the harvesters (reapers) are agents (messengers; folks with the message).
40. 'Therefore, just as the weeds (darnel) are periodically collected together and are normally burned down (or: up) in a fire, thus will it be within the conclusion (the combined final act; the joining of all parts and aspects to one end and goal) of the age [other MSS: this age].
41. 'The Son of the Man will send off His agents (messengers; folks with the message) as emissaries, and they will gather together out of His kingdom (collect and cull out of His reign) all the snares and things which entrap, as well as the folks habitually producing (or: doing; constructing; practicing; creating) the lawlessness.
42. 'Next they will throw them into the furnace (oven; kiln) of The Fire [note: a figure of being dealt with in, and by, God]: ‘the weeping (crying and lamentation) and the grinding of teeth’ will be in that situation (or: place).
43. 'At that time, the fair and equitable folks – who live in the pointed-out Way of right relationships, rightwised behavior and justice – will be giving out light, as from lamps (or: will shine forth from out of the midst), in the same way as the sun, inunion with the reign, and within the kingdom, of their Father. Let the person having ears to hear continue listening and be constantly hearing!'

This also correlates with many of the UNFULFILLED prophecies referring to the time of the fulfillment of TABERNACLES....

Deb

Richard Amiel McGough
12-19-2011, 01:25 PM
Hi Richard!

I think you’re making assumptions about my assumptions. You believe I adhere to common Futurist teaching, which I don’t. You believe I think there will be a 'rapture' that will physically remove Christians, but I don’t. You believe I think there will be an Antichrist world leader, he will force us to have '666' stamped on our hand or forehead, blah, blah, blah…. When I use the phrase 'end times,' it is only to associate with what most Christians believe. A better term, and what I use more often, is 'end of the age' – we are at ANOTHER 'End of Age' time (70 AD was one, this is another…).


Hey there my friend! :yo:

Actually, I think you are making assumptions about my assumptions about your assumptions. You will note that I never said a word about the rapture, antichrist, or 666 as having anything to do with your assumptions. And why not? Because you have never mentioned those things, so I had no reason to assume they were part of your interpretation.

Things will go a lot more quickly if we just assume only what the other person has stated.

For example, I'm glad you explicitly stated your assumption that there is "ANOTHER" end of the age. Unfortunately, I think that is a false assumption.



It's not JUST the dimensions, it is the 7th day of a 1000 years; the 3rd day of the church, etc., etc. If you read my Tabernacle Blueprint, it shows many more relatoinships to how the "Holy Place" speaks of the time of "Pentecost"/church age....but you won't read it because, in your words, you can't get past my "assumptions" (which really aren't what YOU think they are!!)

Yes, that's all good. But what happens to all those patterns when your prediction fails to come to pass?



I TOTALLY understand that, and I am in agreement with you, actually! You have not really been listening to what I am saying, because you are tuning me out based on my "assumptions" that you think I have...

Now you are making assumptions again. How do you know that I've "not been listening?" I think the opposite is the case. I think you have not been listening to me! :p I've been trying to explain why your entire system appears to have flaws built into the foundation. The flaws are the assumption about timelines that can be predicted by patterns. Is there any way to confirm the truth of such a scheme? Thousands of people have developed similar schemes over the centuries and they have always been wrong. THAT'S why I've rejected the whole thing. Not because of specific errors in your particular date-setting scheme, but because I reject all date-setting schemes as a matter of principle.




We can't prove anything by appealing to different "Koine Greek experts" since we can always find some other expert who will disagree. And I wouldn't think you would want to go this route anyway since the experts are about 100 to 1 against your interpretation.
I don't have the time right now to go into this...but this translation that I am referring to simply expands all the ways the words can be expressed, based on tenses, etc., etc...

I understand all that. I can read Greek you know. And the idea that you are pushing is simply false. The JMT "translation" is not even a "translation." It's a clumsy list of possible meanings of the Greek words but they are not put into a readable English sentence.

And gave many reasons your interpretation is wrong. It is not merely because of a "mistranslation" as you seem to be trying to say. There is not even any way to write your translation in proper English because it conveys an idea that doesn't make sense. It makes no sense to tell first century Christians that THEY would be blessed by reading this prophecy about events that were going to happen "really really fast" when they finally begin to happen in the distant future, because the "time" was "at hand" back then in the first century. It is an entirely incoherent point of view.



I read your stuff, but disagree with the totally literal analysis. Revelations cannot be undertsood that way. However, I have no problem agreeing that early AD was the 'end of the AGE' (not end of the world, but end of the AGE. And we could pinpoint 70 a.d. for that matter, as you have pointed out). That was also the beginning of HIS COMING (parousia). That is also what is spoken of in Revelation as being 'at hand' or 'available now' if Revelation (an unveiling) takes place in anyone who can receive it. You are not HEARING what we are trying to explain about this.

Merely asserting that I am "not hearing" if both false and rude. I hear you very well my friend! I have been discussing this topic on this forum for years. Your assertion that "Revelation cannot be interpreted that way" is empty - it not only can be interpreted that way, but that interpretation is confirmed a thousand times more strongly than any other interpretation. It's not perfect - no interpretation is - but its by far the best and certainly the only other than the idealist that says it's all symbolic about archetypal forces.



'The Harvest' is also referred to as happening at the end of the Age. This hasn’t occurred yet. There are many things prophesied that have not occurred yet!! Jesus spoke this about the Harvest at the 'End of the Age'—Mt 13:39 says 'the harvest is the end of the age.' Here is JMT rendering of this passage, starting in v 37:

37 'So He, setting forth a reply giving discernment, said, 'The person habitually sowing the fine, ideal seed is the Son of the man (or: mankind’s son; = the son of Adam; = the human). 38 'Now the field is the organized System (the ordered arrangement; the world; the world of religion as well as of economy, culture, and government in the secular; = the realm of society). As for the fine, ideal seed, these are the sons of the reign (= the produce and resulting situation which have the kingdom as their source and origin; the offspring who are the reign; = those things having the character and quality of the kingdom and are associated with its reign). Yet the weeds are the sons of the worthless person or the disadvantageous circumstance (or: the sons whose source and origin is the one who brings pain and misery through hard labor; the produce whose character and quality are malevolent and wicked; the sons of the evil one; or: offspring of the difficult and wearisome situation [the predicament of mankind?]; the bad environment; may = the result of the work of a worthless person [perhaps: the words of a religious person]).
39. 'And now the enemy (the hostile person) – the person sowing them – is the adversary (the person who will thrust something through you; or: the 'devil'). And then [the] harvest is [the] bringing of the parts together to one destined end (or: a combined final act; a purposed consummation; a putting together of the final product; a joining of all aspects into the fruition of the goal) of an age, but the harvesters (reapers) are agents (messengers; folks with the message).
40. 'Therefore, just as the weeds (darnel) are periodically collected together and are normally burned down (or: up) in a fire, thus will it be within the conclusion (the combined final act; the joining of all parts and aspects to one end and goal) of the age [other MSS: this age].
41. 'The Son of the Man will send off His agents (messengers; folks with the message) as emissaries, and they will gather together out of His kingdom (collect and cull out of His reign) all the snares and things which entrap, as well as the folks habitually producing (or: doing; constructing; practicing; creating) the lawlessness.
42. 'Next they will throw them into the furnace (oven; kiln) of The Fire [note: a figure of being dealt with in, and by, God]: ‘the weeping (crying and lamentation) and the grinding of teeth’ will be in that situation (or: place).
43. 'At that time, the fair and equitable folks – who live in the pointed-out Way of right relationships, rightwised behavior and justice – will be giving out light, as from lamps (or: will shine forth from out of the midst), in the same way as the sun, inunion with the reign, and within the kingdom, of their Father. Let the person having ears to hear continue listening and be constantly hearing!'

This also correlates with many of the UNFULFILLED prophecies referring to the time of the fulfillment of TABERNACLES....

Deb
It's fine if you want to insist that the prophecies are unfulfilled. If you are correct, it only confirms that the biblical eschatology is incoherent since the Bible plainly states that all things would be fulfilled "soon" relative to the first century. And that confirms that it's a waste of time to set more dates and invent more interpretations that are contrary to all the other failed dates and false interpretations that litter the eschatological wilderness. And how could you ever know you were right anyway? So what does any of this matter? That's why I utterly reject all date setting and eschatological interpretations based upon obscure statements in a 2000 year old book written in Greek and Hebrew.

Great chatting!

Richard

debz
12-19-2011, 08:52 PM
Hey there my friend! :yo:

Actually, I think you are making assumptions about my assumptions about your assumptions. You will note that I never said a word about the rapture, antichrist, or 666 as having anything to do with your assumptions. And why not? Because you have never mentioned those things, so I had no reason to assume they were part of your interpretation.

Things will go a lot more quickly if we just assume only what the other person has stated.

For example, I'm glad you explicitly stated your assumption that there is "ANOTHER" end of the age. Unfortunately, I think that is a false assumption.

Hello, Richard!

OK, you're right...I was making assumptions about your assumptions about my assumptions... :dizzy:
Agreed. Will try not to do that again... :sos:



Yes, that's all good. But what happens to all those patterns when your prediction fails to come to pass?

...guess that will only be confirmed in time, eh?



Now you are making assumptions again. How do you know that I've "not been listening?" I think the opposite is the case. I think you have not been listening to me! :p I've been trying to explain why your entire system appears to have flaws built into the foundation. The flaws are the assumption about timelines that can be predicted by patterns. Is there any way to confirm the truth of such a scheme? Thousands of people have developed similar schemes over the centuries and they have always been wrong. THAT'S why I've rejected the whole thing. Not because of specific errors in your particular date-setting scheme, but because I reject all date-setting schemes as a matter of principle.

Let's try a different "timeline" approach then.

(And now I’m going to open up another can of worms…): The signs of the Zodiak actually declare the gospel message. It is another one of those 'things' that people have turned to as a source of power, because it is, but which was originally intended for 'the Sons.' It is what was taught in the mystic 'schools of the prophets,' as only priests and certain leaders were allowed to learn it. It was lost and even declared 'occultic' in order to suppress our access to it (much like even reading the Bible for ourselves was at one time lost).

"The heavens declare (records, tell, foretell, set forth in numbers) the glory of God, and the firmament shows his handiworks (operations). Day unto day utters (gushes, pours forth abundantly) speech, and night unto night shows knowledge. In every nation and language their voice is heard." Psalms 19:1-3

"And I will show signs in the heavens." Joel 2:30

Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him." Matt 2:1-3

('Magi' are described in NASU footnotes as: 'A caste of wise men specializing in astronomy, astrology, and natural science.')

In Job, we’re told: "Can you bind the chains [influences] of the Pleiades (7 stars on Taurus/Bull shoulder), Or loose the cords of Orion (sub-constellation of Taurus: 3 bright stars)? Can you bring out Mazzaroth (Zodiac) in its season and guide the Bear (Virgo) with its cubs? Do you know the ordinances of the heavens? Can you fix their dominion over the earth? Job 38:31-33

When Jesus arrived over 2000 years ago, the Earth was pointing toward the Zodiac house of Pisces (the Fishes), thus, announcing a "new age' (and thus an end of an old age…) and it is why He came at that time with a new message ('the Kingdom of Heaven (Ouranos) is at hand.' Jesus worked many miracles involving fish. He called fishermen to be His apostles. He knew what the heavens were declaring, and was announcing it on earth ('on earth, as it is in heaven'). Interestingly, since then the Fish has been the symbol for Christianity (most don’t realize their bumper stickers originated in the Zodiak!).

The heavens, stars, etc., have had enormous activity lately, announcing the coming of another 'New Age,' one that comes approximately every 2000 years (actually around 2160…and yes, the 'New Agers' beat most of the 'Christians' to it…). Every 'new age' is accompanied by enormous activity in the heavens confirming this: comets, meteor showers, increased eclipses, etc.

The Earth is now tilting and pointing toward Aquarius (the Water-bearer/pourer). This is the Age of the Outpouring of the Holy Spirit (the total fulfillment of Joel 2, which has not been totally fulfilled yet; also the fulfillment of 'Tabernacles,' as one of the two main ceremonies of that Feast was the 'water pouring' ceremony). The message the true modern day prophets declare must match what the heavens are also declaring.

Again, the message of John the Baptist and Jesus was: 'change your paradigm, because the kingdom of heaven (ouranos) is ‘at hand’.' The Piscean Age is also known as the 'church age' (yet another ‘type’ of the Holy Place/Pentecost age from the Tabernacle typology…). Jesus talked mostly about the 'coming Age' – 'the Age to come' – we have mostly interpreted this as 'going to heaven, one day…' That is not what He was saying… The next 'Age' is the 'Age of Aquarius' (surely most of us are old enough to remember that popular song when we were kids: ‘This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius…’). Aquarius is 'ruled' by Uranus.

In January 1996 the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Earth, Mars, Uranus, and Neptune all aligned on the cusp of Capricorn. For the first time in 77 years, Uranus entered Aquarius and six other planets also entered, for a total seven. Uranus (heaven/ouranos) is the 7th planet from the Sun. In January of 1997, the planets formed a Grand Sextile (6 planets - 60 degrees apart) on the cusp of Aquarius—this was announcing the "dawning of the Age of Aquarius.' These two events in January of ’96 and ‘97 were a 'double witness' that the heavens were declaring (prophesying).

In January, 1997, I would have said that anyone who thought astrology could also be 'from God' had to be absolutely deceived and needed deliverance! However, on January 15th, 1997, I had a profound spiritual experience that started to reveal the meaning of all the '555' signs I had been seeing every day for years (and the #15). This all ties together. It wasn’t until the past year or so that I 'saw' the 'complete' picture and how this relates to the 'New Age'/time of 'Tabernacles' that we are transitioning into.

The Kingdom of Heaven (Ouranus/Uranus) is here now. Uranus = Awakening, R-Evolution, and Independence. It is why so many have been 'frustrated' with 'institutional/organized religion' and are 'coming out of it' – it is actually the Holy Spirit’s leading! It is also why there is increasing 'shaking' in the world’s economies, disasters, unrest, fighting against injustices (greed, materialism, etc.) etc….

On 3/11/11, Uranus moved into Aries. Do you remember what happened on that date? THREE volcanoes in various parts of the world, but mostly The Japan Earthquake and Tsunami. 'Aries' is the first sign of the Zodiak and represents 'New Beginnings' Aries is also the warrior constellation – Uranus (heaven) entering Aries signifies a time of a big fight to establish 'heaven on earth' as we move into this. According to mythology, Uranus was the father of the giant 'Cyclops’' (those with One-Eye—their 'eye' is 'singular' -- there is no longer DI-vision!). This is sometimes known as the "third eye" and represents prophetic insight and visions. The heavens also prophesied about this when the Helix Nebula was discovered-- the "Eye of God" -- located in the Aquarius constellation!

This all speaks of the same things I was shown through the '555' revelation… This is what Moses (and all the prophets) prophesied about: Days of Heaven on earth; the pouring out of the Spirit on ALL FLESH. The knowledge of the GLORY of the LORD covering the earth as the waters cover the seas. (Hab 2:14; Joel 2:28).



And gave many reasons your interpretation is wrong. It is not merely because of a "mistranslation" as you seem to be trying to say. There is not even any way to write your translation in proper English because it conveys an idea that doesn't make sense. It makes no sense to tell first century Christians that THEY would be blessed by reading this prophecy about events that were going to happen "really really fast" when they finally begin to happen in the distant future, because the "time" was "at hand" back then in the first century. It is an entirely incoherent point of view.

Well, that's not exactly what I said. I didn't say it was all mis-translation (however, I did say that on the Male Bias, thread). The first-century Christians WOULD be blessed from reading the prophecies--and particularly blessed if they understood them (as the unveiling of the Christ that they are), and applied them to their own lives--becoming "overcomers" in their day. It was available to all from that time forward (much like we see some of the O.T. characters having the Holy Spirit empowering them BEFORE the Holy Spirit was first poured out on Pentecost...there are always forerunners who become "types" themselves as examples...).


Merely asserting that I am "not hearing" if both false and rude. I hear you very well my friend! I have been discussing this topic on this forum for years. Your assertion that "Revelation cannot be interpreted that way" is empty - it not only can be interpreted that way, but that interpretation is confirmed a thousand times more strongly than any other interpretation. It's not perfect - no interpretation is - but its by far the best and certainly the only other than the idealist that says it's all symbolic about archetypal forces.

:sEm_ImSorry: I can understand your objections to this. However, as with all of Jesus' prophecies and parables, it was stressed over and over that only those with "eyes to see and ears to hear" would really "GET" the message. It wasn't "plain as day." There was a specific time in my life that I can point to where I once just read everything from the Bible as "plain as day" and looked at the most obvious meanings and tried to deduce and reason from that. But then there was a time that I would describe as "the eyes of my heart being enlightened" (like Paul prayed for the Ephesians) -- it "opened up" the Word in a whole new way. People I know who have likewise experienced this also "see" things the same way -- not total agreement, mind you, but much more than when they didn't have this. It is called transitioning from the "Outer Court" (where we just see things from the plain view/intellectual reasoning), to the Holy Place Realm (we have some illumination of the scriptures by the Holy Spirit baptism that illumines the mind, will and emotions -- vs. the deposit of the Spirit when we're first saved/still in Outer Court). We won't see "fully" until we enter the Most Holy Place realm....having been baptized by fire--purging all the dross, false beliefs, false concepts, etc...)



It's fine if you want to insist that the prophecies are unfulfilled. If you are correct, it only confirms that the biblical eschatology is incoherent since the Bible plainly states that all things would be fulfilled "soon" relative to the first century. And that confirms that it's a waste of time to set more dates and invent more interpretations that are contrary to all the other failed dates and false interpretations that litter the eschatological wilderness. And how could you ever know you were right anyway? So what does any of this matter? That's why I utterly reject all date setting and eschatological interpretations based upon obscure statements in a 2000 year old book written in Greek and Hebrew.

Let me get back to this part....kids are pulling on me.... :)

Great chatting!

Richard[/QUOTE]

Richard Amiel McGough
12-19-2011, 09:51 PM
Hello, Richard!

OK, you're right...I was making assumptions about your assumptions about my assumptions... :dizzy:
Agreed. Will try not to do that again... :sos:

Hey Ho Deb Oh! :yo:

All is good. I'm glad we are at truce about making assumptions about each others assumptions about each other ... :lmbo:



...guess that will only be confirmed in time, eh?

Yes, and if history is any indicator ...



Let's try a different "timeline" approach then.

(And now I’m going to open up another can of worms…): The signs of the Zodiak actually declare the gospel message. It is another one of those 'things' that people have turned to as a source of power, because it is, but which was originally intended for 'the Sons.' It is what was taught in the mystic 'schools of the prophets,' as only priests and certain leaders were allowed to learn it. It was lost and even declared 'occultic' in order to suppress our access to it (much like even reading the Bible for ourselves was at one time lost).

"The heavens declare (records, tell, foretell, set forth in numbers) the glory of God, and the firmament shows his handiworks (operations). Day unto day utters (gushes, pours forth abundantly) speech, and night unto night shows knowledge. In every nation and language their voice is heard." Psalms 19:1-3

"And I will show signs in the heavens." Joel 2:30

Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him." Matt 2:1-3

('Magi' are described in NASU footnotes as: 'A caste of wise men specializing in astronomy, astrology, and natural science.')

In Job, we’re told: "Can you bind the chains [influences] of the Pleiades (7 stars on Taurus/Bull shoulder), Or loose the cords of Orion (sub-constellation of Taurus: 3 bright stars)? Can you bring out Mazzaroth (Zodiac) in its season and guide the Bear (Virgo) with its cubs? Do you know the ordinances of the heavens? Can you fix their dominion over the earth? Job 38:31-33

When Jesus arrived over 2000 years ago, the Earth was pointing toward the Zodiac house of Pisces (the Fishes), thus, announcing a "new age' (and thus an end of an old age…) and it is why He came at that time with a new message ('the Kingdom of Heaven (Ouranos) is at hand.' Jesus worked many miracles involving fish. He called fishermen to be His apostles. He knew what the heavens were declaring, and was announcing it on earth ('on earth, as it is in heaven'). Interestingly, since then the Fish has been the symbol for Christianity (most don’t realize their bumper stickers originated in the Zodiak!).

The heavens, stars, etc., have had enormous activity lately, announcing the coming of another 'New Age,' one that comes approximately every 2000 years (actually around 2160…and yes, the 'New Agers' beat most of the 'Christians' to it…). Every 'new age' is accompanied by enormous activity in the heavens confirming this: comets, meteor showers, increased eclipses, etc.

The Earth is now tilting and pointing toward Aquarius (the Water-bearer/pourer). This is the Age of the Outpouring of the Holy Spirit (the total fulfillment of Joel 2, which has not been totally fulfilled yet; also the fulfillment of 'Tabernacles,' as one of the two main ceremonies of that Feast was the 'water pouring' ceremony). The message the true modern day prophets declare must match what the heavens are also declaring.

Again, the message of John the Baptist and Jesus was: 'change your paradigm, because the kingdom of heaven (ouranos) is ‘at hand’.' The Piscean Age is also known as the 'church age' (yet another ‘type’ of the Holy Place/Pentecost age from the Tabernacle typology…). Jesus talked mostly about the 'coming Age' – 'the Age to come' – we have mostly interpreted this as 'going to heaven, one day…' That is not what He was saying… The next 'Age' is the 'Age of Aquarius' (surely most of us are old enough to remember that popular song when we were kids: ‘This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius…’). Aquarius is 'ruled' by Uranus.

In January 1996 the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Earth, Mars, Uranus, and Neptune all aligned on the cusp of Capricorn. For the first time in 77 years, Uranus entered Aquarius and six other planets also entered, for a total seven. Uranus (heaven/ouranos) is the 7th planet from the Sun. In January of 1997, the planets formed a Grand Sextile (6 planets - 60 degrees apart) on the cusp of Aquarius—this was announcing the "dawning of the Age of Aquarius.' These two events in January of ’96 and ‘97 were a 'double witness' that the heavens were declaring (prophesying).

In January, 1997, I would have said that anyone who thought astrology could also be 'from God' had to be absolutely deceived and needed deliverance! However, on January 15th, 1997, I had a profound spiritual experience that started to reveal the meaning of all the '555' signs I had been seeing every day for years (and the #15). This all ties together. It wasn’t until the past year or so that I 'saw' the 'complete' picture and how this relates to the 'New Age'/time of 'Tabernacles' that we are transitioning into.

The Kingdom of Heaven (Ouranus/Uranus) is here now. Uranus = Awakening, R-Evolution, and Independence. It is why so many have been 'frustrated' with 'institutional/organized religion' and are 'coming out of it' – it is actually the Holy Spirit’s leading! It is also why there is increasing 'shaking' in the world’s economies, disasters, unrest, fighting against injustices (greed, materialism, etc.) etc….

On 3/11/11, Uranus moved into Aries. Do you remember what happened on that date? THREE volcanoes in various parts of the world, but mostly The Japan Earthquake and Tsunami. 'Aries' is the first sign of the Zodiak and represents 'New Beginnings' Aries is also the warrior constellation – Uranus (heaven) entering Aries signifies a time of a big fight to establish 'heaven on earth' as we move into this. According to mythology, Uranus was the father of the giant 'Cyclops’' (those with One-Eye—their 'eye' is 'singular' -- there is no longer DI-vision!). This is sometimes known as the "third eye" and represents prophetic insight and visions. The heavens also prophesied about this when the Helix Nebula was discovered-- the "Eye of God" -- located in the Aquarius constellation!

This all speaks of the same things I was shown through the '555' revelation… This is what Moses (and all the prophets) prophesied about: Days of Heaven on earth; the pouring out of the Spirit on ALL FLESH. The knowledge of the GLORY of the LORD covering the earth as the waters cover the seas. (Hab 2:14; Joel 2:28).

Ah ... this is a very interesting approach. I am familiar with it, of course, since it has been popular for over a century. I don't have any strong opinions about it because it's hard to get any solid information. The precession of the equinoxes are not know with great precision. It's hard to get exact numbers. As for things happening on specific days ... well there's no way for me to evaluate things like that because I would have to compare the few points you shared with the ten trillion events that the you didn't mention. I'll do that and get back to you (please be patient, it might take a few decades!). :p

In general, astrology is a rich symbolic system with no limit to it's applications. Get a hundred professional astrologers in a room and ask them what they think of your interpretation and we'd probably get more disparate points of view than if they we held an eschatology convention! Astrology is like the Bible - infinitely rich and open to an infinity of interpretations.



Well, that's not exactly what I said. I didn't say it was all mis-translation (however, I did say that on the Male Bias, thread). The first-century Christians WOULD be blessed from reading the prophecies--and particularly blessed if they understood them (as the unveiling of the Christ that they are), and applied them to their own lives--becoming "overcomers" in their day. It was available to all from that time forward (much like we see some of the O.T. characters having the Holy Spirit empowering them BEFORE the Holy Spirit was first poured out on Pentecost...there are always forerunners who become "types" themselves as examples...).

OK - so no matter how we cut it, you are not reading the text the way a first century Christian would have read it. And that's OK I guess, but it also means that you interpretation is probably unique to you. But that's OK too if it is giving light to your path.




:sEm_ImSorry: I can understand your objections to this. However, as with all of Jesus' prophecies and parables, it was stressed over and over that only those with "eyes to see and ears to hear" would really "GET" the message. It wasn't "plain as day." There was a specific time in my life that I can point to where I once just read everything from the Bible as "plain as day" and looked at the most obvious meanings and tried to deduce and reason from that. But then there was a time that I would describe as "the eyes of my heart being enlightened" (like Paul prayed for the Ephesians) -- it "opened up" the Word in a whole new way. People I know who have likewise experienced this also "see" things the same way -- not total agreement, mind you, but much more than when they didn't have this. It is called transitioning from the "Outer Court" (where we just see things from the plain view/intellectual reasoning), to the Holy Place Realm (we have some illumination of the scriptures by the Holy Spirit baptism that illumines the mind, will and emotions -- vs. the deposit of the Spirit when we're first saved/still in Outer Court). We won't see "fully" until we enter the Most Holy Place realm....having been baptized by fire--purging all the dross, false beliefs, false concepts, etc...)

That's cool. And my eyes are now "twice opened" - (A double witness! :hysterical: ) There was a time when the Bible was meaningless, then my eyes were opened and it was filled with living light and everything was "plain as day" and then my eyes were opened again and I see it is a mystical book that speaks to each individual in their own language and it's a meaningless and incoherent book if interpreted literally .... I wonder what I'll see the next time my eyes get opened?




It's fine if you want to insist that the prophecies are unfulfilled. If you are correct, it only confirms that the biblical eschatology is incoherent since the Bible plainly states that all things would be fulfilled "soon" relative to the first century. And that confirms that it's a waste of time to set more dates and invent more interpretations that are contrary to all the other failed dates and false interpretations that litter the eschatological wilderness. And how could you ever know you were right anyway? So what does any of this matter? That's why I utterly reject all date setting and eschatological interpretations based upon obscure statements in a 2000 year old book written in Greek and Hebrew.
Let me get back to this part....kids are pulling on me.... :)

Great chatting!

Richard
Sounds good!

And yes, it is good to be digging into this with you. Your plain speech makes it easy and enjoyable.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
12-19-2011, 10:53 PM
I go looking for "Dumbo hierophant" on the internet and find this:


The Psychedelic [in] Society: A Brief Cultural History of Tripping
(http://www.psychedelicadventures.com/BriefHistory.htm)
Psychedelics are notorious today because of the rude splash they made in the Sixties and Seventies, when the tidal wave of altered consciousness they unleashed billowed across the social landscape, upsetting many an apple cart, Newtonian and otherwise, along the way. During the course of this insurrectional drive to expand the human mind, millions of students, artists, and other seekers were ushered by chemical agents toward – and, hopefully, through -- the Doors of Perception, a term borrowed from William Blake by Aldous Huxley to describe, in his 1954 book of the same title, the expansive universe to which drugs such as LSD can open up the mortal brain -- a realm in which everything appears, in Blake's words, "as it is, infinite."

<snip>

The pivotal scene in Dumbo (1941), for instance, is the transformation of consciousness and augmentation of capacity -- in this case, the big-eared elephant’s motor skills -- via a hallucinatory delirium brought on when the dejected pachyderm drinks a barrel full of water into which, unbeknownst to him, a bottle of spirits had been accidentally spilled. To the foreboding lyrics and serpentine melody of 'Pink Elephants on Parade,' Dumbo begins seeing things 'you know that ain’t' (a succession of fractals and geometrical patterns, forms morphing into new ones, and scenes of Oriental mystery and erotica), then passes into oblivion, from which he wakes up in the highest branches of a tree. Thus Dumbo earns his wings not through an act of obeisance to the Ten Commandments but in the throes of a psychotropic-induced visionary state.

It's not like synchronicity is associated with LSD or anything ... or that I just got back from an exceedingly profound trip down to Oakland for the Cartographie Psychedelica Conference celebrating the 25th Anniversary of MAPS - the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. Go figure! It's almost like the psychedelic revelation that we are Divine Beings living in One Unified Divine Mind might actually be true or something ...

Richard Amiel McGough
12-19-2011, 11:13 PM
Surfing around, I found the original story of Dumbo (http://jimhillmedia.com/alumni1/b/wade_sampson/archive/2004/12/28/1237.aspx) as written by Helen Aberson and Harold Pearl. Disney made a lot of changes, for the better it seems to me ...

The Disney feature film, "Dumbo" originated with a story by Helen Aberson and Harold Pearl, and was adapted for the screen by the great story team of Joe Grant and *** Huemer. It appeared as a Roll-A-Book. A Roll-A-Book was a distinctive format. It featured about a dozen illustrations which appeared on a short scroll that was built into a box and the reader would twist a small wheel at the top of the box to get to the next panel illustration. Apparently no known copies of this original Roll-A-Book survive today and Helen's family had never heard about the Roll-A-Book version of the story. Shortly after the Roll-A-Book version, the story and illustrations were reprinted in a regular book edition of no more than one thousand copies.

While visiting Disney historian Jim Korkis during Mousefest, my eyes popped out and my mouth dropped to the ground when he pulled out from his private collection a copy of that book edition. He told me that it had taken him over two decades to locate a copy and discovered it by accident at a flea market in Central Florida.

It is only 36 pages long (counting covers) and the bright yellow cover declares: "Dumbo the Flying Elephant by Helen Aberson and Harold Pearl" with no mention of Disney at all. The cover features Dumbo with a red, white and blue color and a yellow clown hat with a red ball on it. Dumbo is waving a flag with red and white stripes (no blue square with white stars).

The book was published by Whitman Publishing Company and there are two copyrights: 1939 by The Roll-A-Book Publisher, Inc. and 1941 by Walt Disney Productions. It is roughly 8 by 11 inches.
In the illustrations, Dumbo looks very much the way he does in the feature film, although how many variations are there when it comes to drawing a baby elephant with huge ears? The artwork is very rough almost like quick black pencil sketches or charcoal. There is very little detail. Some pictures of humans are little more than stick figures with a dot for an eye.

The design of the book includes eight full page pictures (leaving barely twenty-four pages of text mixed with drawings that often take up half a page). There doesn't seem to have been a model sheet for Dumbo or his mother as their appearance and proportions seem to fluctuate from drawing to drawing. Not to mention that some of Dumbo's expressions are odd in the sense that they don't communicate the innocence of his better known cinematic incarnation.

"Spring seems to be the season for circus babies. Anyway, this particular Spring was. There was a new baby lion, a new baby zebra, a baby bear, a baby hippopotamus, a baby camel, a bay giraffe and a new baby elephant. Everyone made a great fuss over the baby elephant because he was the cutest of all. His Mother Ella was very proud of him. She caressed him with her trunk while she listened to the other elephants praise him.

'You can tell by his ears that he's going to be a big fellow,' said one elephant.

'Why, he'll probably be a regular Jumbo,' remarked another.

And right then and there Mother Ella named him JUMBO."

The circus is in its Winter quarters in Florida and is preparing to visit hundreds of cities and will be transported by a proudly puffing train. As they went from city to city, all the circus babies grew except for Little Jumbo who even though he ate his bale of hay each day only his ears grew and he often tripped over them.

While both Mother Ella and Little Jumbo were unhappy that everyone made fun of him because of his ears, they were happy when Jack, the elephant trainer decided to give the little elephant a part in the new elephant act. So Mother Ella scrubbed Little Jumbo extra clean, sprayed him with water from her trunk and hung him out on the line to dry. (The title page has a picture of this with two clothespins on each ear holding him to a clothesline while he looks at them with an annoyed glance.)

When the big day came, it was a balancing elephant act with the first one balanced on a large red wooden ball and five other elephants climbed on top of the first elephant. The illustration shows a plank on the back of the first elephant for the others to stand on.

Little Jumbo was "to climb up to the very tip-top of the highest elephant and stand up bravely, waving a little American flag. Mother Ella kissed him for good luck. Holding his little flag in his trunk, Jumbo started to climb up on the big elephant. He was so happy that he looked back to smile at Mother Ella."

At that moment, he tripped over one of his big ears and fell while the crowd shrieked with laughter. He rolled over and over and hit the wooden ball and all the elephants tumbled and they "landed with such terrific bumps that the high-diver's tank bounced into the air, the trapezes danced about crazily, the people fell out of their seats, and the tent began to topple!! Animals and people alike ran for safety! And when the tent collapsed completely, who should come crawling out but little Jumbo smiling and waving his American flag!"

"That night, the circus train carried two very sad elephants. One was Mother Ella. The other, little Jumbo. They had put him in the donkey car. And on his water pail, they had crossed out the 'J' in Jumbo and painted a big 'D'. And from that moment on, little Jumbo was known as DUMBO."

As further punishment, Jack and the ringmaster turned Dumbo over to the clowns. They painted a big clown grin and silly looking eyebrows on Dumbo and put a dunce cap on his head. Then twice each day, Dumbo had to perform the "fireman trick" where the clowns chased him up a ladder to the window of a toy house. The flames forced Dumbo to jump into the paper net the clowns were holding and Dumbo would fall through the net into a tub of mud while the audience laughed.

Dumbo was heartbroken and would cry himself to sleep. One day, after the performance and dripping with mud, instead of returning to his mother, he walked right out of the circus grounds. He just wanted to get far, far away.

Before he got very far, he heard a cheerful little voice say, "What's the matter, little fellow? Did someone throw mud at you?"

That cheerful little voice belonged to a little robin in a red vest and a pearl-gray derby. The robin's name was "Red".

When Dumbo told Red his sad story, the robin decided the problem was that Dumbo had a complex about his ears and so he decided to take Dumbo to a friend of his, Professor Hoot Owl, M.D., Ph.D., M.A., L.L.D. Psychiatrist and Notary Public, who lived in a large tree.

Doctor Hoot Howl tapped Dumbo with little hammers, tickled him with feathers and shot guns off under his chair and finally questioned him about his dreams. Shyly, Dumbo admitted that he dreams about flying.

"What's stopping you?" the Dcotor shouted at Dumbo. "If you want to fly, go ahead and fly! Ten dollars, please."

Red told the owl to charge it to his account and when he asked the doctor how Dumbo should begin flying, the doctor boomed, "That information will cost you ten dollars more---and this time it will be cash!" So Red decided he would figure out a way for Dumbo to fly.

Red's plan was to have Dumbo repeat "I CAN FLY" a hundred times and then he took Dumbo to the top of a high cliff and had him jump off. Dumbo fell towards the ground with his legs, ears and trunk all flapping.

Red flew alongside and shouted, "Spread your ears! Soar! Pull yourself out of it before you crash!"
Suddenly, Dumbo wasn't falling but flying. Every day, Dumbo practiced with Red flying alongside, giving him instructions. "And soon, he learned to loop the loop, spiral, glide, dip and soar just like a bird."

"We're going back to the circus, little fellow. But you mustn't say a word about all this to anyone. I have a plan that'll make us rich and famous, but we must wait until the time is ripe," counseled Red.

Mother Ella was very thankful to see her son again and pleased to meet his new friend, Red. Dumbo was able to tolerate the hateful "fireman trick" because Red was there to encourage him and because of the wonderful secret.

After a few weeks, the circus came to Madison Square Garden, the most important stop on the circus schedule. The clowns even made the platform for Dumbo much higher, hoping the people would laugh harder. However, on the opening day performance as Dumbo was about to jump, Red flew up and whispered to him, "Now's the time, Ace! Let 'em have it!"

Dumbo was frightened and when he jumped he couldn't remember how to fly so he closed his eyes and kept falling. Red shouted instructions at him until he was almost in tears. Suddenly, Dumbo straightened his ears, dipped low and flew.

The audience and circus performers gasped. Dumbo flew in and out of the trapezes. "He looped the loop, dipped, circled, and soared. Then he swooped down low, scooped up a trunkful of water from the high-diver's tank and shot it at the clowns. And he spanked the ringmaster with his trunk! Then he soared right through the door out into the street. Outside he caused a general panic. Women screamed! Men hid in doorways! Policemen blew whistles! Automobiles jumped curbs! Dumbo, scared at what he had done, flew back to the Garden. He was greeted with wild cheering and applause. He came to a graceful landing and bowed to all the people" and then ran over to Mother Ella and kissed her.

Dumbo became the star of the circus and all the posters advertised "Dumbo the flying elephant" and the ringmaster introduced him to audiences as "the eighth wonder of the world! The only flying elephant in captivity!" He had his own private car in the circus train and his name was painted on it in gold letters. In addition, he had servants to wait on him and his mother and Red.
"And the last we heard, they were on their way to Hollywood. For Dumbo is going to act in the movies!"

And the final picture is Red in his derby holding papers that say "contract".

Once again, I would like to thank Jim Korkis whose love of the film "Dumbo" even exceeds my own for allowing me to share with the readers this lost piece of Disney history.

debz
12-19-2011, 11:33 PM
Hey Ho Deb Oh! :yo:

All is good. I'm glad we are at truce about making assumptions about each others assumptions about each other ... :lmbo:

Right on! :hippie:



Yes, and if history is any indicator ...

:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:



Ah ... this is a very interesting approach. I am familiar with it, of course, since it has been popular for over a century. I don't have any strong opinions about it because it's hard to get any solid information. The precession of the equinoxes are not know with great precision. It's hard to get exact numbers. As for things happening on specific days ... well there's no way for me to evaluate things like that because I would have to compare the few points you shared with the ten trillion events that the you didn't mention. I'll do that and get back to you (please be patient, it might take a few decades!). :p

There are no specific dates....that's the folly of those who try to pinpoint "Jesus' return" to specific dates. It is a transition into an "aeon" that does not happen at a specific time...I am not trying to pinpoint specific days...just a general time frame. However, the Mayans, as you know, place the end of this age at precisely 12/21/12 ... others think it happens a bit sooner, like even as soon as "now." And, if I haven't made it abundantly clear, "end of age" does not equal "end of world."


In general, astrology is a rich symbolic system with no limit to it's applications. Get a hundred professional astrologers in a room and ask them what they think of your interpretation and we'd probably get more disparate points of view than if they we held an eschatology convention! Astrology is like the Bible - infinitely rich and open to an infinity of interpretations.

Sure, but I am talking BIG, OBVIOUS things...not all the zillion little nuances that all those astrologers can come up with. I personally don't even follow astrology except for those BIG, OBVIOUS things that speak clearly with things that line up with scripture, as I believe the "water-pourer" Aquarius Age is synonymous with the time of Tabernacles, and there are many correlations with both TIMELINES and SYMBOLISM between the two.



OK - so no matter how we cut it, you are not reading the text the way a first century Christian would have read it. And that's OK I guess, but it also means that you interpretation is probably unique to you. But that's OK too if it is giving light to your path.

Well, I'm not sure if that's all true. If a first century Christian were enlightened, I believe they would be reading "The Unveiling of Jesus" in much the same way I do. This was not available until the CROSS. But it all speaks to the "Forming of Christ IN US" ("Christ in you, the hope of Glory..."), which is everything Paul taught on--it's all about "attaining to" that place, that goal of "Perfection." It shows what is necessary to be an overcomer--yes, the messages to the churches in the early chapters of Revelations were specific to that day, but they also hold a metaphorical meaning, as does the rest of the Bible, and that is what I am speaking of here. Each church is also representative of a "progression" in how one achieves different levels of accessing the "Most Holy Place" (Kingdom), beginning with the "right" to eat from the Tree of Life, and culminating in the highest place of overcoming--attaining complete Union--as the Bride who also "sits on His thrown" with Him. This is one who becomes completely dual-dimensional: as much a part of heaven as they are of earth...just like Adam was...just like Adam lost. This is what is to be restored as the "restoration of all things."



That's cool. And my eyes are now "twice opened" - (A double witness! :hysterical: ) There was a time when the Bible was meaningless, then my eyes were opened and it was filled with living light and everything was "plain as day" and then my eyes were opened again and I see it is a mystical book that speaks to each individual in their own language and it's a meaningless and incoherent book if interpreted literally .... I wonder what I'll see the next time my eyes get opened?

Yes! It is all that--the Bible will "mirror" to you things extremely personal and mystical--only known to you--in order to aid you on your path (that is represented in the washing in the laver, as the laver was made of mirrors...to reflect back to you personal things, intimate things that wouldn't mean anything to others...). And next time your eyes get opened, well, I guess we will all hear about it on this forum :winking0071: It's all about removing the layers of veils until we see "fully," know "fully," and I don't know anyone who is there yet. We're all still pursuing it :)


As for the Kingdom of Heaven (ouranos/Uranus) being "at hand" -- let's look at that again, because it is similar to the phrases "which will SOON occur" or "will happen shortly..." Jesus preached that this "Age" was "at hand" (at the time He was preaching). So...if I am saying we are transitioning into that "Age" now...how can that be? Because it is not an either/or....it is a Both/And. Entering that realm absolutely WAS available at that time...there were some who were overcomers in their day and attained to a lot of it (maybe not all, but quite a lot....same as what I was talking about re the 'overcomers' in the book of Revelation/messages to churches...). We see the apostles in the book of Acts walking in a lot of this--accessing the powers of the Kingdom and bringing them to be manifested in the earth. It was available then, and some forerunners tapped into it (who were to model to us the way it is supposed to be--living supernaturally on earth, bringing heaven to be displayed in the earth...). However, it is a "both/and" ...meaning there is an age where there will be many "Sons brought to glory" ... it is what the earth has been waiting/groaning for...the Mature Sons to be "manifested" (have Christ completely formed in them so as to be pure vessels able to touch the earth with heaven and His Presence through them). It is what Jesus prophesied about when He went to the Feast of Tabernacles. It is the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles, where the "great light" shines through and the "living water" flows from His Body (Corporate Body) ....


Deb

Bob May
12-21-2011, 09:27 AM
Hi you two,

I'm glad you are working out the bugs here.
This seems to be the biggest hudle to overcome for some reason.
This end tiome stuff.
This is the same angel we have been talking about from Rev 10-12. The seventh angel announcing that "Time should be no more."It should not enter into our interpretation or world veiw/Reality view at all.

The cross is where everytyhing changed. There were forerunners in the OT, Those that recieved "Favor or Grace" from God. But they were not able to reach what is available to us.

This is Rachel who was Beautiful and "Well Favored." This is the woman at Jacob's well who shows a fulfillment of the story of Rachel who met Jacob at the same well.
This is us reaching Tipareth.
It is a Consciousness that we had to get to.

And fortunate and well favored we are in that we are able to meet here with people who are beginning to see the same things that we are beginning to see.

I have had very few people over the last 20-25 years that I could even talk to about these things. I could count them on three fingers of one hand.

You all have a nice day,
Bob

Richard Amiel McGough
12-21-2011, 10:11 AM
Hi you two,

I'm glad you are working out the bugs here.
This seems to be the biggest hudle to overcome for some reason.
This end tiome stuff.
This is the same angel we have been talking about from Rev 10-12. The seventh angel announcing that "Time should be no more."It should not enter into our interpretation or world veiw/Reality view at all.

Well, that's just a bad translation. It really means "There shall be no more delay." It not saying anything about the concept of "time" not being a part of our interpretation or worldview.

The solution to the "end time stuff" is not so easy. Most of the evidence points to the Preterist solution. But no interpretation is perfect, so I have concluded that the Bible is logically incoherent on this point.

But it can't just be ignored because it plays such a central role in the story, which is probably why it has deluded so many people over the course of history. This then shows either that the Bible corrupts the minds of those who take it seriously or reveals the corruption that was already there. In either case, it makes things worse rather than better. Has any nutcase date-setter ever been healed by the Bible? I doubt it. It seems to greatly aggravate the condition of "end times madness."


The cross is where everytyhing changed. There were forerunners in the OT, Those that recieved "Favor or Grace" from God. But they were not able to reach what is available to us.

Yes, that's exactly how I saw things when I was writing the Bible Wheel book. For example, here is a quote I used in Chapter 3 (http://www.biblewheel.com/book/Chapters/Chapt03.asp) that expressed my perception quite well:

In this mighty movement from God to God the Cross of Christ is the center of all history. Not indeed as to time, but spiritually and really, and therefore as to the history of salvation, it is the center of all world events. The Cross is the one, incomparable, central event in universal history, surpassing all else in significance. Therefore in the Chart it stands not only as the middle point of the long extended section which represents the course of history, but in size and height it surpasses in the drawing all other representations of events in the whole plan of salvation.

This is why the Bible is so rich - it contains transcendent archetypal symbols. It does let a lot of light shine through. But on the other hand, it's got a lot of crap in it that seems better to reject than to try to "explain" or fit into some system.


This is Rachel who was Beautiful and "Well Favored." This is the woman at Jacob's well who shows a fulfillment of the story of Rachel who met Jacob at the same well.
This is us reaching Tipareth.
It is a Consciousness that we had to get to.

Why should we make those associations with Rachel? What do we really learn from her character in the story? Is the mere fact that she was "yapheh" (root of Tipharet = Beauty) sufficient to build Qabbalistic doctrines?



And fortunate and well favored we are in that we are able to meet here with people who are beginning to see the same things that we are beginning to see.

I have had very few people over the last 20-25 years that I could even talk to about these things. I could count them on three fingers of one hand.

You all have a nice day,
Bob
Yes, it is wonderful to be able to discuss these things. There is much meaning here. I trust you don't mind that I throw in a little astringent to clear our nasal passages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astringent) once in a while!

Great chatting my good friend!

Richard

PS: Rose and I watch Man of La Mancha last night. Fantastic movie! :thumb: :thumb: I had no idea what I was in for.

Bob May
12-21-2011, 12:18 PM
Why should we make those associations with Rachel? What do we really learn from her character in the story? Is the mere fact that she was "yapheh" (root of Tipharet = Beauty) sufficient to build Qabbalistic doctrines?


Thanks, I didn't know that one.
No, she has been a mystery to me for a few years now. Why was she not at the reunion of the Brothers and Joseph???
That is what brought me to her. Aslo the Samamritan woman at the well. Jesus pointed out that it was he that spoke to her (Messiah)
Once a few things "fit together" you can expect much much more. I do!


Don't have time right now. Gotta get to work.
But this is the place on the site where we talk about synchronicities isn't it??
Everything is Synchronizing just fine. Mysteries (like Rachel) being revealed by your dream and football players and all kinds of stuff.
This is the Machinery of the Universe, the spiritual experience of Yesod. Enlightened by the Spiritual experience of Tipareth. All the Gears are meshing. You need a Synchro in a transmission of your car or you can change gears. etc, etc.,
Bye for now,
Bob

Yes, it is wonderful to be able to discuss these things. There is much meaning here. I trust you don't mind that I throw in a little astringent to clear our nasal passages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astringent) once in a while!

Great chatting my good friend!

Richard

PS: Rose and I watch Man of La Mancha last night. Fantastic movie! :thumb: :thumb: I had no idea what I was in for.[/QUOTE]

kathryn
12-22-2011, 08:08 AM
Bob: You need a Synchro in a transmission of your car or you can change gears. etc, etc.,

Hi Bob....just wanted to add to this; you need to remove the "resister" out of the circuit, for the flow to increase. The word for "to resist him" is "satan".

There are only two things we need to know: Christ is in and through ALL things therefore all things will express His character and purposes, His Heart of Love.(what "things" are left out of that equation?)
Either we trust in that Love and let go....or we continue to be double minded, straining to apprehend it(arrest..take captive) .

The Mystery of Christ and His relationship with His Body...is given in type, as the physical relationship between a man and wife. We don't analyse during intercourse, or strain to apprehend our Lover... we release ourselves into Love. (once we KNOW the Heart of our Lover)

kathryn
12-22-2011, 08:32 AM
And I might add, that our Lover is just as passionate, if not more so, to communicate Love than we are at first, to apprehend it. When we finally realize this and open to this divine communication of Love in and through all things, our Lover comes "suddenly" to the temple.

Bob May
12-22-2011, 09:33 AM
Well, that's just a bad translation. It really means "There shall be no more delay." It not saying anything about the concept of "time" not being a part of our interpretation or worldview.


Time shall be no more, or there shall be no more delay. what's the difference?
Either would have Reaffirmed what I was already seeing.
The woman at the well believed that the messiah would come. She was receptive to the whole concept.
When he did come she asked him water to drink. When he told her all things whatsoever she did she belived immediately. She became a conduit to truth and those of her town also belived.
Her conception of time (As referring to the first coming) was changed.
He is here, NOW!!! We have waited for thousands of years and he is here, NOW!!!!

The same change in our concept of time (as referring to the Second Coming) must also change!!!
He is HERE, NOW!!!

That is my point. And it didn't just get here because of a few lines concerning the Samaritan woman or Rachel.
They just added to what was already forming in my mind. And already being synchronised in my surroundings and conversations etc. He is telling me all things ever I did!!!
Rachel is the receptive part of us as is the Samaritan woman. But that state of awareness is "Hidden".
This is the overlap of Tipareth (Beauty) with Kether (Concealed of the Concealed.)

The angel in the card Temperance is the angel in the book of revelations with one foot on land and one on water. We realated all of this to the Tipareth experience in the Matthew 17 thread. It fit with the 11th chapter of the book of Revelation.
I just backed up one chapter and found the Time shall be no more line.

I had already come to this conclusion mostly because of the hard headedness of the Preterist and Futurist arguments on the forum.
One looking back and the other looking forward and no one willing to drop their interpretations long enough to consider that IT IS Happening Now.



The solution to the "end time stuff" is not so easy. Most of the evidence points to the Preterist solution. But no interpretation is perfect, so I have concluded that the Bible is logically incoherent on this point.


Of course it is logically incoherent. It is not a book on logic. You want logic, read Aristotle.
And then you can blame him for the preponderance of left brain thinking that pervades the entire civilization.
If we want enlightenment we need to take that Center Perception.

Re 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Re 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

When we realize that he IS it shortly comes to pass. When we only look at things which were or things which will be and will not consider the IS it will never come to pass for us.
That is my point concerning the conception of time.
When I was a new semi-truck driver I spent two weeks with a trainer. Even though I had gone through school, it is standard to ride with a trainer when you start with a new company.
Standard Truck transmissions do not have Synchros. To get the gears to line up so that the teeth are "Coincident" with each other you hve to "Double Clutch". You push in the clutch to get it out of gear.
Then you must let the clutch pedal come completely up. This lines up the gears and allows them to s"Synchronize." Only then can you push in the clutch pedal again to move up to the next gear.
Manual transmissions in cars do not require this procedure because they have "Synchros" in the transmission.
The first week I had trouble getting from one gear to another without grinding gears, until my trainer noticed
that I was not letting the clutch pedal come all the way up every time I shifted.
Once we discovered my mistake there were no more grinding of gears.

The Samaritan woman was able to shift gears and believe because she saw the synchronicites in the appearance of the Messaiah. "He told me all things whatsoever I did."

Joh 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

Joh 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
Joh 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.




But it can't just be ignored because it plays such a central role in the story, which is probably why it has deluded so many people over the course of history. This then shows either that the Bible corrupts the minds of those who take it seriously or reveals the corruption that was already there. In either case, it makes things worse rather than better. Has any nutcase date-setter ever been healed by the Bible? I doubt it. It seems to greatly aggravate the condition of "end times madness."


The nut case date setter will not throw his transmission into neutral long enough to see the synchronicities or to let the clutch all the way up so that he can get into the next gear.
He is so busy putting together a structure for the future that he is missing what is going on all around him.




Yes, that's exactly how I saw things when I was writing the Bible Wheel book. For example, here is a quote I used in Chapter 3 (http://www.biblewheel.com/book/Chapters/Chapt03.asp) that expressed my perception quite well:

In this mighty movement from God to God the Cross of Christ is the center of all history. Not indeed as to time, but spiritually and really, and therefore as to the history of salvation, it is the center of all world events. The Cross is the one, incomparable, central event in universal history, surpassing all else in significance. Therefore in the Chart it stands not only as the middle point of the long extended section which represents the course of history, but in size and height it surpasses in the drawing all other representations of events in the whole plan of salvation.



The Cross, Resurrection and Pentecost (and you might throw 70 AD in for good measure) was a turning point in history in that something was available to everyone that was not previous to those event playing out in Earth. The shadow play was complete.



This is why the Bible is so rich - it contains transcendent archetypal symbols. It does let a lot of light shine through. But on the other hand, it's got a lot of crap in it that seems better to reject than to try to "explain" or fit into some system.


I reject nothing. If I do not understand it it is because I do not yet see it in the correct light.



Why should we make those associations with Rachel? What do we really learn from her character in the story? Is the mere fact that she was "yapheh" (root of Tipharet = Beauty) sufficient to build Qabbalistic doctrines?


Why not? If I am wrong it will be made plain, but if I am right I will be open to more revelation as time goes on concerning Rachel. I can always toss it as wrong anytime I like.
Her not being at the reunion is a great mystery. She was there as the moon in Joseph's dream. Yet she was already buried in Bethlehem at the time of the fulfillment of the dream.
If it does not make sense, look deeper.

Bob



Yes, it is wonderful to be able to discuss these things. There is much meaning here. I trust you don't mind that I throw in a little astringent to clear our nasal passages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astringent) once in a while!

Great chatting my good friend!

Richard

PS: Rose and I watch Man of La Mancha last night. Fantastic movie! :thumb: :thumb: I had no idea what I was in for.[/QUOTE]

Richard Amiel McGough
12-22-2011, 10:18 AM
Time shall be no more, or there shall be no more delay. what's the difference?
Either would have Reaffirmed what I was already seeing.
The woman at the well believed that the messiah would come. She was receptive to the whole concept.
When he did come she asked him water to drink. When he told her all things whatsoever she did she belived immediately. She became a conduit to truth and those of her town also belived.
Her conception of time (As referring to the first coming) was changed.
He is here, NOW!!! We have waited for thousands of years and he is here, NOW!!!!

The same change in our concept of time (as referring to the Second Coming) must also change!!!
He is HERE, NOW!!!

That is my point. And it didn't just get here because of a few lines concerning the Samaritan woman or Rachel.
They just added to what was already forming in my mind. And already being synchronised in my surroundings and conversations etc. He is telling me all things ever I did!!!
Rachel is the receptive part of us as is the Samaritan woman. But that state of awareness is "Hidden".
This is the overlap of Tipareth (Beauty) with Kether (Concealed of the Concealed.)

The angel in the card Temperance is the angel in the book of revelations with one foot on land and one on water. We realated all of this to the Tipareth experience in the Matthew 17 thread. It fit with the 11th chapter of the book of Revelation.
I just backed up one chapter and found the Time shall be no more line.

I had already come to this conclusion mostly because of the hard headedness of the Preterist and Futurist arguments on the forum.
One looking back and the other looking forward and no one willing to drop their interpretations long enough to consider that IT IS Happening Now.

Well, I would not say her "conception of time was changed" - she was merely told what time it was! The time had come for messiah to appear. I see no change in "conception of time."

Much of what you say makes sense but I see no reason for your special decontextualized application of the phrase "time shall be no more." That phrase was part of a narrative of the book of Revelation. I don't see any reason to snatch it out of context and apply it to current events.

I don't understand what you mean when you say that "no one willing to drop their interpretations long enough to consider that IT IS Happening Now" because that's what most Futurists believe. I think you must be talking about a different kind of "happening" - meaning, Revelation is symbolic of the psycho-spiritual dynamics of each person's life at the moment of their awakening? Is that how you interpret it? Has it always been happening "now?"




The solution to the "end time stuff" is not so easy. Most of the evidence points to the Preterist solution. But no interpretation is perfect, so I have concluded that the Bible is logically incoherent on this point.
Of course it is logically incoherent. It is not a book on logic. You want logic, read Aristotle.
And then you can blame him for the preponderance of left brain thinking that pervades the entire civilization.
If we want enlightenment we need to take that Center Perception.

Ha! :lmbo: That is well put. But it doesn't actually solve the issue. Right-brain wholeness is not "logically incoherent" - it's beyond logic. It can't be comprehended by logic, but that does not mean it is logically incoherent. The problem with the Biblical eschatology is that it appears to be logically incoherent - or we simply don't know how to interpret some of the statements. But any attempt to make it logically coherent ends up being very unconvincing to me, so I just dropped the topic.



Re 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Re 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

When we realize that he IS it shortly comes to pass. When we only look at things which were or things which will be and will not consider the IS it will never come to pass for us.
That is my point concerning the conception of time.
When I was a new semi-truck driver I spent two weeks with a trainer. Even though I had gone through school, it is standard to ride with a trainer when you start with a new company.
Standard Truck transmissions do not have Synchros. To get the gears to line up so that the teeth are "Coincident" with each other you hve to "Double Clutch". You push in the clutch to get it out of gear.
Then you must let the clutch pedal come completely up. This lines up the gears and allows them to s"Synchronize." Only then can you push in the clutch pedal again to move up to the next gear.
Manual transmissions in cars do not require this procedure because they have "Synchros" in the transmission.
The first week I had trouble getting from one gear to another without grinding gears, until my trainer noticed
that I was not letting the clutch pedal come all the way up every time I shifted.
Once we discovered my mistake there were no more grinding of gears.

The Samaritan woman was able to shift gears and believe because she saw the synchronicites in the appearance of the Messaiah. "He told me all things whatsoever I did."

Joh 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

Joh 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
Joh 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

So it looks like you have completely decontextualized the words. The Samaritan woman would not have "seen Christ" if he hadn't been there. It was not "synchronicities" that alerted her to his identity. It was his prophetic speech, followed by his explicit statement. Nothing like that is going on with us here and now. Sure, there are plenty of synchronicities happening, and we are trying to interpret them. But I see no justification to take time statements that were true 2000 years ago, and apply them to our current situation as if they were true now. That would be like saying that it's always the "sixth hour" because that was the time that Jesus met the Samaritan woman.

I'm still not clear on your interpretation. Are you saying that it is ALWAYS NOW in the sense that the Messiah is always here now talking to us? Or is it NOW in a special sense indicated by the appearance of synchronicities?




Yes, that's exactly how I saw things when I was writing the Bible Wheel book. For example, here is a quote I used in Chapter 3 (http://www.biblewheel.com/book/Chapters/Chapt03.asp) that expressed my perception quite well:In this mighty movement from God to God the Cross of Christ is the center of all history. Not indeed as to time, but spiritually and really, and therefore as to the history of salvation, it is the center of all world events. The Cross is the one, incomparable, central event in universal history, surpassing all else in significance. Therefore in the Chart it stands not only as the middle point of the long extended section which represents the course of history, but in size and height it surpasses in the drawing all other representations of events in the whole plan of salvation.
The Cross, Resurrection and Pentecost (and you might throw 70 AD in for good measure) was a turning point in history in that something was available to everyone that was not previous to those event playing out in Earth. The shadow play was complete.

Those events were just "shadow play?"




This is why the Bible is so rich - it contains transcendent archetypal symbols. It does let a lot of light shine through. But on the other hand, it's got a lot of crap in it that seems better to reject than to try to "explain" or fit into some system.
I reject nothing. If I do not understand it it is because I do not yet see it in the correct light.

Right - and that's what destroys such a system in my estimation. If I must contort the Bible until it fits my system it has no real value and gives no real insight. It doesn't actually inform me about anything because I am the one "forming" what the Bible says. I might as well start with the Sunday comics and contort them to fit my system.




Why should we make those associations with Rachel? What do we really learn from her character in the story? Is the mere fact that she was "yapheh" (root of Tipharet = Beauty) sufficient to build Qabbalistic doctrines?
Why not? If I am wrong it will be made plain, but if I am right I will be open to more revelation as time goes on concerning Rachel. I can always toss it as wrong anytime I like.
Her not being at the reunion is a great mystery. She was there as the moon in Joseph's dream. Yet she was already buried in Bethlehem at the time of the fulfillment of the dream.
If it does not make sense, look deeper.

Why not associate them with the price of tea in China too? And last Sunday's comics? You had made some statements of fact as if you had knowledge that "This is Rachel who was Beautiful and 'Well Favored.' This is the woman at Jacob's well who shows a fulfillment of the story of Rachel who met Jacob at the same well. This is us reaching Tipareth." I was merely asking if there was a reason for your assertions. There's no need to get defensive. I was just asking ...

All the best,

Richard

Bob May
12-22-2011, 11:25 AM
Well, I would not say her "conception of time was changed" - she was merely told what time it was! The time had come for messiah to appear. I see no change in "conception of time."


Time as concerning the coming. We are waiting for something that we see as not being here yet. When, in fact, it is. Just as she did.



Much of what you say makes sense but I see no reason for your special decontextualized application of the phrase "time shall be no more." That phrase was part of a narrative of the book of Revelation. I don't see any reason to snatch it out of context and apply it to current events.


In context has it's benefit and we should watch that when studying the Bible.
But, conversely, it is important to allow things that are "out of context" to come into our minds because we don't see the entire context. The big picture. Jesus and Paul took one liners out of the OT (out of context) to illustrate things that were happening at the time. This is because they saw the big picture.



I don't understand what you mean when you say that "no one willing to drop their interpretations long enough to consider that IT IS Happening Now" because that's what most Futurists believe. I think you must be talking about a different kind of "happening" - meaning, Revelation is symbolic of the psycho-spiritual dynamics of each person's life at the moment of their awakening? Is that how you interpret it? Has it always been happening "now?"


Most futurists are looking to the future at the supposed outward happenings that everyone will witness. That is different Jesus said not to look at the appearance of things.
The book of Revelation is John relating what he was going through in the process of being awakened.
We are to have our own revelation which will also be Christ's revelation which he is showing us.
We begin to see through his eyes. "How will you manifest yourself to us and not to the world", Judas asked him
His answer was that he and the Father would come and make their abode in us/them.



Ha! :lmbo: That is well put. But it doesn't actually solve the issue. Right-brain wholeness is not "logically incoherent" - it's beyond logic. It can't be comprehended by logic, but that does not mean it is logically incoherent. The problem with the Biblical eschatology is that it appears to be logically incoherent - or we simply don't know how to interpret some of the statements. But any attempt to make it logically coherent ends up being very unconvincing to me, so I just dropped the topic.


Right Brain is not the answer. Just as left brain is not the answer. You are more of the logical type than I am. You might look at us as two extremities of the poles. But we both have to approach the Middle Pillar to be whole.
Parable and allegory are good to help us approach this by presenting an unsolveable puzzle.
But allegory is only the third level of interpretation.
The fourth level is Mtystical and it is not interpretation at all. It is direct knowing.



So it looks like you have completely decontextualized the words. The Samaritan woman would not have "seen Christ" if he hadn't been there. It was not "synchronicities" that alerted her to his identity. It was his prophetic speech, followed by his explicit statement. Nothing like that is going on with us here and now. Sure, there are plenty of synchronicities happening, and we are trying to interpret them. But I see no justification to take time statements that were true 2000 years ago, and apply them to our current situation as if they were true now. That would be like saying that it's always the "sixth hour" because that was the time that Jesus met the Samaritan woman.


His prophetic speech was synchronicity to her. It applied directly to her. And it was the witness of all three that agree on the earth. Blood, Spirit and water.
I hadn't saw the 6th hour thing but that is probably true. It is the 6th (Tipareth) hour for those who recognise it, like the woman did.



I'm still not clear on your interpretation. Are you saying that it is ALWAYS NOW in the sense that the Messiah is always here now talking to us? Or is it NOW in a special sense indicated by the appearance of synchronicities?


I would think that, yes, he is always talking to us.



Those events were just "shadow play?"


They really happened in fulfilling the old Testament for those who were there at the time. So it is history.
But Jesus said follow him, so those events in the New Testament were also a guide for us. A guide we do not even realize we are following many times until after the fact. After our eyes begin to open.
I am beginning to look at life as a shadow play in a way. It seems that at times it's all symbols speaking to us as dreams do.



Right - and that's what destroys such a system in my estimation. If I must contort the Bible until it fits my system it has no real value and gives no real insight. It doesn't actually inform me about anything because I am the one "forming" what the Bible says. I might as well start with the Sunday comics and contort them to fit my system.

Why not associate them with the price of tea in China too? And last Sunday's comics? You had made some statements of fact as if you had knowledge that "This is Rachel who was Beautiful and 'Well Favored.' This is the woman at Jacob's well who shows a fulfillment of the story of Rachel who met Jacob at the same well. This is us reaching Tipareth." I was merely asking if there was a reason for your assertions. There's no need to get defensive. I was just asking ...


I am sorry if I came off as defensive. Because of my schedule I am usually rushed as I am posting. As I am today. Again, my apologies.
As far as Rachel goes, I will keep my eyes open for more connections. Like I said it has a lot to do with the Matthew 17 thread and some numbers that I will have to find again.
In the mean time you keep your eyes open also and we may find out that I am on to something.

All the best,
Bob

All the best,

Richard[/QUOTE]

Richard Amiel McGough
12-22-2011, 01:34 PM
Time as concerning the coming. We are waiting for something that we see as not being here yet. When, in fact, it is. Just as she did.

OK - but you are talking about the coming of "Christ Consciousness," right? I'm not sure that's what the book of Revelation is talking about. I'm sure I could impose those ideas atop the text and come up with a reasonable story (for the most part), but I doubt I would then have much confidence my story reflected anything but my own imagination. But then again, I haven't really tried, so maybe I'm speaking out of turn.



In context has it's benefit and we should watch that when studying the Bible.
But, conversely, it is important to allow things that are "out of context" to come into our minds because we don't see the entire context. The big picture. Jesus and Paul took one liners out of the OT (out of context) to illustrate things that were happening at the time. This is because they saw the big picture.

Yes, the NT certainly does take things "out of context" - and that's one of the primary reasons Jews don't accept the NT or the idea that Jesus really fulfilled the prophecies. And if we follow suit, then we can make up anything we want and the idea of "authoritative Scripture" becomes meaningless. But that's OK with me, since I don't believe in "authoritative Scripture" anyway.



Most futurists are looking to the future at the supposed outward happenings that everyone will witness. That is different Jesus said not to look at the appearance of things.
The book of Revelation is John relating what he was going through in the process of being awakened.
We are to have our own revelation which will also be Christ's revelation which he is showing us.
We begin to see through his eyes. "How will you manifest yourself to us and not to the world", Judas asked him
His answer was that he and the Father would come and make their abode in us/them.

I like those ideas, and they may be true. Time will tell, I guess.

But I wouldn't build too much off that one passage when Jesus said not to look at the "appearance of things." He also said "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies" and "when you see all these things" etc. He was clearly talking about external events.



Right Brain is not the answer. Just as left brain is not the answer. You are more of the logical type than I am. You might look at us as two extremities of the poles. But we both have to approach the Middle Pillar to be whole.
Parable and allegory are good to help us approach this by presenting an unsolveable puzzle.
But allegory is only the third level of interpretation.
The fourth level is Mtystical and it is not interpretation at all. It is direct knowing.

The middle pillar may be the balance between the Left and Right brains. Or it could be a third point.

As for gnosis - direct knowing - that is the goal as well as the path.



His prophetic speech was synchronicity to her. It applied directly to her. And it was the witness of all three that agree on the earth. Blood, Spirit and water.
I hadn't saw the 6th hour thing but that is probably true. It is the 6th (Tipareth) hour for those who recognise it, like the woman did.

OK - that makes sense within your interpretational scheme.

But I doubt it is what John intended when he wrote it. Of course, that's OK because he might not have known the higher meaning of the text he was being used to create.



They really happened in fulfilling the old Testament for those who were there at the time. So it is history.
But Jesus said follow him, so those events in the New Testament were also a guide for us. A guide we do not even realize we are following many times until after the fact. After our eyes begin to open.
I am beginning to look at life as a shadow play in a way. It seems that at times it's all symbols speaking to us as dreams do.

Yeah, the "shadow play" idea goes all the way back to Plato's cave. It is a good metaphor.



I am sorry if I came off as defensive. Because of my schedule I am usually rushed as I am posting. As I am today. Again, my apologies.
As far as Rachel goes, I will keep my eyes open for more connections. Like I said it has a lot to do with the Matthew 17 thread and some numbers that I will have to find again.
In the mean time you keep your eyes open also and we may find out that I am on to something.

No worries. It's all good!

Richard

lenvande
12-22-2011, 05:25 PM
The Wiki article on Dali’s Dream Caused by the Flight of a Bee Around a Pomegranate a Second Before Awakening says the following:

The smaller pomegranate floating between two droplets of water may symbolize Venus, especially because of the heart-shaped shadow it casts.[6] It may also be used as a Christian symbol of fertility and resurrection.[7] This female symbolism may contrast with the phallic symbolism of the threatening creatures.[6]

I hope not to offend anyone on this forum. As my training is in literary and artistic interpretation and criticism and because I see clear links between Dali’s subject matter, the Dumbo movie, and Richard’s dream, I have to return to the sexual symbols observed by many commentators in Dali’s painting.

The nude woman reclines, slightly suspended above a rock at the edge of a large body of water:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-vtuDQ3nm_GI/TrFlrvRXwQI/AAAAAAAANS0/RSjeoqo4fJ0/s640/salvador-dali-dream-caused-by-the-flight-of-a-bee.jpg

Dali’s 1937 painting Sleep depicts a similar theme in which a heavy head is suspended by supporting crutches while it sleeps:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lq9gifnJ4S1qmusrao1_500.jpg

Beyond the sleeping head is a crutch that extends heavenward. Its position, shape, and angle parallel one of the front legs of the elephant in the Dream painting. Clearly, the theme of support is common to both works.

The SMK connection is established in both paintings, and the SMK/PYL connection is established in the Dream painting.

However, Dali is obviously exploring sexual themes in the Dream painting, which also correspond to SMK. Michael Munk says that the SMK is not only something which supports, but is also feminine, associating it with the creation of Eve and resulting sexual temptation.

If we take the numeric weight of 44=MD or DM and look strictly at the letters and what they symbolize, we have 'water door.' The woman in the Dream painting (completed in 1944) is on the threshold of an expanse of water, and she herself is a symbol of fertility and ultimately child-bearing and birth, the process in which water literally exits the female body through the threshold of the genitalia. In the womb, this water supports a newly begotten creation.

If you factor in Ezekiel 44 with the clothing requirements given to the remnant Levites for entering and exiting the Most Holy Place and the Holy Place and for ministering to those in the Outer Court, you have a picture of the priests’ primary function as foretold by Leah in Gen. 29:34:

Now this time will my husband be joined (LVH) unto me, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi.

The Levitical priests became the vav that joined Israel in the Outer Court to God in the Most Holy Place. Whether we see this in sexual terms really doesn’t matter. The physical union of a man and woman is simply a symbol of the kind of relationship God wants with us. Through Jesus, we have a better high priest and thus a better vav than the Levitical priesthood could be for Israel or Levi could be for his mother.

How many times have we heard conservative Christian men talk like giddy school girls about having a relationship with Christ, being in love with him, being part of his Bride, and part of his body? Though the sexual relationship between a man and woman isn’t necessarily sufficient for describing the nature of the church’s relationship with Christ, it is helpful if one can get past what may feel like taboos. Likewise, there is more to all this than what we experience here in the physical plane as human beings divided from one another by sex, as well as so many other things. We are ultimately talking about a spiritual process whereby individuals begin to merge with Christ so they might eventually merge with one another so they might corporately merge again with Christ. How can we abide in him as he abides in us and as he abides in the Father and the Father in him? We should realize sexual imagery is not sufficient for seeing the full picture. However, it does help for getting some perspective on how Christ lives in and through us and on how the church is to be joined to him.

Bob May
12-23-2011, 09:37 AM
OK - but you are talking about the coming of "Christ Consciousness," right? I'm not sure that's what the book of Revelation is talking about. I'm sure I could impose those ideas atop the text and come up with a reasonable story (for the most part), but I doubt I would then have much confidence my story reflected anything but my own imagination. But then again, I haven't really tried, so maybe I'm speaking out of turn.


I look for matching patterns. Take away the symbology and what are you left with? A pattern. See that you build it after the pattern showed thee on the mount.
John starts out the book saying that it is the revelation of Jesus Christ. His revelation which he gave to John. (Seeing through his eyes.) and John has been given this revelation to give to us.

Re 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Jesus said that everything he was speaking did not come from him. It came from the Father. We are supposed to come to that same realization.



Yes, the NT certainly does take things "out of context" - and that's one of the primary reasons Jews don't accept the NT or the idea that Jesus really fulfilled the prophecies. And if we follow suit, then we can make up anything we want and the idea of "authoritative Scripture" becomes meaningless. But that's OK with me, since I don't believe in "authoritative Scripture" anyway.


We cannot make up anything we want if our prerequisite for accepting elements into our doctrine/interpretation require the patterns to match.
We keep things in mind and not reject them outright.
Ge 37:5 And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more.
Ge 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
Ge 37:11 And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.

Joseph's brothers (aspects of ourselves) hated him right off.
Jacob's first inclination was to rebuke him but then, maybe because he had had some pretty weird dreams himself, he obsreved the saying.



I like those ideas, and they may be true. Time will tell, I guess.

But I wouldn't build too much off that one passage when Jesus said not to look at the "appearance of things." He also said "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies" and "when you see all these things" etc. He was clearly talking about external events.


Yes, and external events will show the same patterns. There is a tree in every world. There are four worlds.
Paul said the invisible thing from the creation of the world are clearly seen by the things that are manifest.
But if we do not recognise the patterns, we will not recognise those invisible things that are being shown.




The middle pillar may be the balance between the Left and Right brains. Or it could be a third point.

As for gnosis - direct knowing - that is the goal as well as the path.


The Mystic path is the Middle Pillar, as opposed to the Way of the Magician which is to access each Path and Sephirah one at a time going up the tree. (Hence the 33 degrees of Masonry and similar schools of thought.)The problem with that method is imbalance. (Mental and emotional.)
If you reach a place of enlightenment on the middle pillar the knowledge of the side pillars and lower Sephiroth are also gained.
This is Jesus' "I am the way." And this is the reason the sephirah, Tipareth has connecting paths to all the Sephiroth directly.




Originally Posted by Bob May
His prophetic speech was synchronicity to her. It applied directly to her. And it was the witness of all three that agree on the earth. Blood, Spirit and water.
I hadn't saw the 6th hour thing but that is probably true. It is the 6th (Tipareth) hour for those who recognise it, like the woman did.

OK - that makes sense within your interpretational scheme.

But I doubt it is what John intended when he wrote it. Of course, that's OK because he might not have known the higher meaning of the text he was being used to create.


It doesn't matter what John intended, you are right. That thought you just spoke is a big part of this Christ Consciousness. It is the geat day, the last day of the feast of Tabernacles. Where water flows out of our bellys.
Jesus was tempted by Satan and Satan said if you be the son of God turn the stones into bread. This is turning stones into bread. Seeing the Scripture as something that we feed on spiritually. House of Bread, where Rachel was buried and cries out from the ground that no other spiritual thought (male children of Israel) are left. Only Jesus survived.
Caiaphas said that it was better for one man to die and that a whole people be saved. His intentions were not honorable but the words were correct. He was prophecying.
Joseph at the reunion of the Brothers said they meant it for evil but God meant it for good. He was seeing the big picture which we also are supposed to see.
Satan's head only reaches to Tipareth, because he has served his purpose once we have begun to see these things.




Yeah, the "shadow play" idea goes all the way back to Plato's cave. It is a good metaphor.


All the world is a stage and we are but players.

All the best,
Bob

Bob May
12-23-2011, 09:59 AM
The Wiki article on Dali’s Dream Caused by the Flight of a Bee Around a Pomegranate a Second Before Awakening says the following:

The smaller pomegranate floating between two droplets of water may symbolize Venus, especially because of the heart-shaped shadow it casts.[6] It may also be used as a Christian symbol of fertility and resurrection.[7] This female symbolism may contrast with the phallic symbolism of the threatening creatures.[6]


The pomegranete symbol is used in the Qabala and Tarot also.

A Garden of Pomegranates is a 160 page book, written by Israel Regardie in 1931. The first edition was published in 1932. The book was printed four times, with a second edition being published in 1970 by Llewellyn Publications. The title pays homage to Moses ben Jacob Cordovero's "Pardes Rimonim," or "Pomegranate Orchard."

A third edition was printed in 1999, by Llewellyn Publications This edition includes two introductions by Regardie, and one from Chic and Sandra Tabatha Cicero. The third edition is also furnished with a series of annotations done by the Ciceros, and an additional 320 page qabalistic textbook, titled Skrying On The Tree of Life.

Regardie dedicates the book to Aleister Crowley and identifies the text as theoretical introduction to the foundation of the magical work of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/02.gif

The High Priestess card which is on the 13th Path (unity) from Tipareth to Kether has as a veil behind the woman a tree of life with Pomegranetes as Sephiroth.




The SMK connection is established in both paintings, and the SMK/PYL connection is established in the Dream painting.

However, Dali is obviously exploring sexual themes in the Dream painting, which also correspond to SMK. Michael Munk says that the SMK is not only something which supports, but is also feminine, associating it with the creation of Eve and resulting sexual temptation.

If we take the numeric weight of 44=MD or DM and look strictly at the letters and what they symbolize, we have 'water door.' The woman in the Dream painting (completed in 1944) is on the threshold of an expanse of water, and she herself is a symbol of fertility and ultimately child-bearing and birth, the process in which water literally exits the female body through the threshold of the genitalia. In the womb, this water supports a newly begotten creation.

If you factor in Ezekiel 44 with the clothing requirements given to the remnant Levites for entering and exiting the Most Holy Place and the Holy Place and for ministering to those in the Outer Court, you have a picture of the priests’ primary function as foretold by Leah in Gen. 29:34:

Now this time will my husband be joined (LVH) unto me, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi.

The Levitical priests became the vav that joined Israel in the Outer Court to God in the Most Holy Place. Whether we see this in sexual terms really doesn’t matter. The physical union of a man and woman is simply a symbol of the kind of relationship God wants with us. Through Jesus, we have a better high priest and thus a better vav than the Levitical priesthood could be for Israel or Levi could be for his mother.

How many times have we heard conservative Christian men talk like giddy school girls about having a relationship with Christ, being in love with him, being part of his Bride, and part of his body? Though the sexual relationship between a man and woman isn’t necessarily sufficient for describing the nature of the church’s relationship with Christ, it is helpful if one can get past what may feel like taboos. Likewise, there is more to all this than what we experience here in the physical plane as human beings divided from one another by sex, as well as so many other things. We are ultimately talking about a spiritual process whereby individuals begin to merge with Christ so they might eventually merge with one another so they might corporately merge again with Christ. How can we abide in him as he abides in us and as he abides in the Father and the Father in him? We should realize sexual imagery is not sufficient for seeing the full picture. However, it does help for getting some perspective on how Christ lives in and through us and on how the church is to be joined to him.

The letter Samech is also on the middle pillar on the path from Yesod to Tipareth. Yesod is associated with the sexual organs. And the Samech is the Serpent biting it's own tail relating to a higher use of sexual energy.

One thing that I hadn't noticed until last night. The 9 of Yesod turns upside down to form the 6 of Tipareth.
The 9 could be looked at as the male genitals "at ease" and the 6 could be looked at as if "at attention", so to speak. (Or as being used for either lower passions or higher aspirations.)
Our energies are directed by our thoughts and emotions. That which connects us Vav, (nail) Levi, (Joining, Love) can connect us to whatever it is we want to be joined to.
The sex energy can help us join to the highest of heights or lowest of lows.
It is just energy, like Nuclear energy. We can power our houses with it or destroy cities with it.

Bob

Richard Amiel McGough
12-23-2011, 12:48 PM
The Wiki article on Dali’s Dream Caused by the Flight of a Bee Around a Pomegranate a Second Before Awakening says the following:

The smaller pomegranate floating between two droplets of water may symbolize Venus, especially because of the heart-shaped shadow it casts.[6] It may also be used as a Christian symbol of fertility and resurrection.[7] This female symbolism may contrast with the phallic symbolism of the threatening creatures.[6]

I hope not to offend anyone on this forum. As my training is in literary and artistic interpretation and criticism and because I see clear links between Dali’s subject matter, the Dumbo movie, and Richard’s dream, I have to return to the sexual symbols observed by many commentators in Dali’s painting.

The nude woman reclines, slightly suspended above a rock at the edge of a large body of water:

<snip>

Dali’s 1937 painting Sleep depicts a similar theme in which a heavy head is suspended by supporting crutches while it sleeps:

<snip>

Beyond the sleeping head is a crutch that extends heavenward. Its position, shape, and angle parallel one of the front legs of the elephant in the Dream painting. Clearly, the theme of support is common to both works.

The SMK connection is established in both paintings, and the SMK/PYL connection is established in the Dream painting.

However, Dali is obviously exploring sexual themes in the Dream painting, which also correspond to SMK. Michael Munk says that the SMK is not only something which supports, but is also feminine, associating it with the creation of Eve and resulting sexual temptation.

If we take the numeric weight of 44=MD or DM and look strictly at the letters and what they symbolize, we have 'water door.' The woman in the Dream painting (completed in 1944) is on the threshold of an expanse of water, and she herself is a symbol of fertility and ultimately child-bearing and birth, the process in which water literally exits the female body through the threshold of the genitalia. In the womb, this water supports a newly begotten creation.

If you factor in Ezekiel 44 with the clothing requirements given to the remnant Levites for entering and exiting the Most Holy Place and the Holy Place and for ministering to those in the Outer Court, you have a picture of the priests’ primary function as foretold by Leah in Gen. 29:34:

Now this time will my husband be joined (LVH) unto me, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi.

The Levitical priests became the vav that joined Israel in the Outer Court to God in the Most Holy Place. Whether we see this in sexual terms really doesn’t matter. The physical union of a man and woman is simply a symbol of the kind of relationship God wants with us. Through Jesus, we have a better high priest and thus a better vav than the Levitical priesthood could be for Israel or Levi could be for his mother.

How many times have we heard conservative Christian men talk like giddy school girls about having a relationship with Christ, being in love with him, being part of his Bride, and part of his body? Though the sexual relationship between a man and woman isn’t necessarily sufficient for describing the nature of the church’s relationship with Christ, it is helpful if one can get past what may feel like taboos. Likewise, there is more to all this than what we experience here in the physical plane as human beings divided from one another by sex, as well as so many other things. We are ultimately talking about a spiritual process whereby individuals begin to merge with Christ so they might eventually merge with one another so they might corporately merge again with Christ. How can we abide in him as he abides in us and as he abides in the Father and the Father in him? We should realize sexual imagery is not sufficient for seeing the full picture. However, it does help for getting some perspective on how Christ lives in and through us and on how the church is to be joined to him.
Hey there Len,

Fascinating insights, my friend! Don't worry about any "delicate sensibilities" regarding the symbolism in the art. We're all adults here. We can discuss things openly. The only problem would be if someone were trying to use such things to evoke lewd and lascivious passions or something like that. As it is, we can look at the workings of our own bodies and minds without shame, as it was in the beginning (Gen 2:25). And as you will now see, there is no getting away from the "erotic" aspect of the subconscious mind.

I was reading an article about Dali and found the source of his elephant carrying the obelisk. The image originated in a book called Hypnerotomachia by Poliphili. The name if from the Greek words hypnos, ‘sleep’, eros, ‘love’, and mache, ‘fight’ so it means something like "The Strife of Love in a Dream." It was written in 1499 AD in Latin. An old English translation is available in PDF format here (http://www.archive.org/details/hypnerot00colluoft) where also we find this descriptions of the book:
This is a 1592 partial translation of an extraordinary early printed book published anonymously at the press of Aldus Manutius in Venice, 1499. It was written in a highly idiosyncratic language composed of Latin, Italian and Greek neologisms. The first vernacular translation of it was made in French in 1546, and this is the second translation in English.
The renown of the original is both for the typography and for the woodcuts, not all of which appear in the English translation.
A young man, Poliphilo, tells the story of a dream in which he searches for his lost beloved, Polia (his name means Lover-of-Polia) in an enchanted world of classical antiquity. This is primarily a spiritual quest, which the dream presents in enigmas. The woodcuts and descriptions of glorious architecture and garden settings were highly influential throughout Europe and the British Isles.
For any English reader who is interested in the Hypnerotomachia, while it takes a little practice to read the f's as s's, and see words like 'iuie' as 'ivy' and 'dyfhe' as 'dish', this Renaissance translation will be greatly rewarding as it conveys the flavour and mystery of the original allegory in the narrator's rich descriptions.
There is a constant play on the page between text, image, and hieroglyphic. See for example p. 81 for invented hieroglyphics, and p. 164, where early examples of Arabic and Hebrew type are set into the illustration alongside Latin and Greek.


The book contained an image of an elephant carrying an obelisk:

249


In the book, the author describes how the obelisk passes through the belly of the elephant.

This image was then used as the inspiration for a statue to support an Egyptian obelisk that was discovered in Rome in 1665. Pope Alexander VII wanted to raise the obelisk and needed a base, so he commissioned Bernini who suggested Poliphili's elephant. The Pope agreed, saying that he wanted the obelisk to be a sign of "Holy Knowledge." Thus on the side of the plynth is engraved the saying "a strong mind is needed to support solid knowledge." How curious is that? Here we encounter the main themes discussed earlier in this thread - the connection between SMK (support) and PYL (elephant) as well as the idea of the "Holy Knowledge" revealed by the Hierophant/Pope/Levi/Vav card in the Tarot. And the original inspiration for the elephant with an obelisk comes from medieval book about a "Dream of Love." This all feels pretty significant to me. I'm very curious to read Poliphili's book.

Here's how the obelisk looks today:

250

Now the root MD does mean "garment" but can also mean "measure." And it is in this second sense that seems most significant in this context. The number 12 is a "number of measurement" in both time (12 months, 12 signs fo the zodiac, 12 x 2 hours in a day, etc) and in space (12 inches to a foot, 12 x 30 degrees in a circle, etc). And the 12th letter LMD can be read as "L" (to) "MD" (measure). This is a line of thought that only occurred to me this morning, so I don't know where it will lead as yet.

Richard

lenvande
12-23-2011, 01:51 PM
Thanks for helping develop this picture, Bob and Richard. It really is amazing how so many of these things are harmonized.

According to Munk, the Samekh and Vav are related. Vav’s numerical value is 6, while Samekh’s is 60. Vav’s revealed initial (V) is 6, and its hidden remainder (V) is 6. Samekh’s revealed initial (S) is 60, and its hidden remainder (MK) is 60. Fully spelled, VaV = 12, and SMK = 120. Also, both represent completeness.

Richard’s most recent post already reveals the chain of influences for Dali’s work, so I will review it only briefly here and then add some extra points that are quite interesting in light of all this.

Dali’s 1944 painting was influenced by Baroque sculptor Gian Lorenzo Berninini’s elephant and obelisk sculpture, titled Pulcino della Minerva:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Pulcino_della_Minerva_%28Leverich%29.jpg

Located in the Piazza di Minerva in Rome, this work was completed in 1667. You take the double numbers in this year (66), and you get the numerical value SMK-VV, which relates directly to the connection Munk makes.

Go back to 1499, and you find Bernini’s influence, a woodcut of an elephant and obelisk from Francesco Colonna’s novel Hypnerotomachia Poliphili:

http://www.buildingcontent.highercontent.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Hypnerotomachia-Poliphili-elephant.jpg

The double numbers in this year (99) have the numerical value ZDY-TT.

Reduce all of these double numbers to their most basic symbols, and you have the following:

99 = ZDY-TT = Righteous Serpent
66 = SMK-VV = Support/Join
44 = MM-DLT = Water Door

Of course, a number of meanings might emerge from these symbols, but sexual intercourse and birth seem to be among the most obvious. Add to all this that we are discovering these synchronicities in 2011, the double numbers of which can be distilled into YD-ALF, or First Hand, and we have to wonder if we are seeing the hand of Zerah (the Seed) emerging from the Water Door.

Does anyone have some scarlet thread ready?

Richard Amiel McGough
12-23-2011, 01:52 PM
I was reading my notes form November 11, 1992 and found this:
Lord Jesus Christ = 3168 = 6 x 528

Thus we have arrived. The Key to the Universe MPhTCh = 528 = T(32)

This is the new birth YLD = 44, in full = Yod Lamed Dalet = 20 + 74 + 434 = 528

which again is Salvation (yeshuah) written in full Yod Shin Vav Ayin Hey = 528

These were identities I have not thought about for many years. They were very convincing to me at the time when I was discovering I was Christian. Both the standard and the full values of the word YLD (yeled, birth) relate directly to the numbers given in the dream (full spelling is indicated by colons between the letters):

YLD = 44
Y:L:D: = 528 = 12 x 44

And the Hebrew name of Jesus is a simple anagram of the word for salvation - Yehoshua <=> Yeshuah and so both sum to 528 when spelled in full:

Y:H:Sh:V:Ayin: = 20 + 6 + 360 + 12 + 130 = 528

And this links back to the value of the full title of the Lord Jesus Christ in Greek:

Lord Jesus Christ = 3168 = 6 x 528 (Yehoshua in full)

I found all these relations to be very convincing to me personally since I had received the literal "key" to it all in my Dumbo Dream before I knew a lick of Hebrew.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-23-2011, 02:09 PM
Thanks for helping develop this picture, Bob and Richard. It really is amazing how so many of these things are harmonized.

According to Munk, the Samekh and Vav are related. Vav’s numerical value is 6, while Samekh’s is 60. Vav’s revealed initial (V) is 6, and its hidden remainder (V) is 6. Samekh’s revealed initial (S) is 60, and its hidden remainder (MK) is 60. Fully spelled, VaV = 12, and SMK = 120. Also, both represent completeness.

Richard’s most recent post already reveals the chain of influences for Dali’s work, so I will review it only briefly here and then add some extra points that are quite interesting in light of all this.

Dali’s 1944 painting was influenced by Baroque sculptor Gian Lorenzo Berninini’s elephant and obelisk sculpture, titled Pulcino della Minerva:



Located in the Piazza di Minerva in Rome, this work was completed in 1667. You take the double numbers in this year (66), and you get the numerical value SMK-VV, which relates directly to the connection Munk makes.

Go back to 1499, and you find Bernini’s influence, a woodcut of an elephant and obelisk from Francesco Colonna’s novel Hypnerotomachia Poliphili:



The double numbers in this year (99) have the numerical value ZDY-TT.

Reduce all of these double numbers to their most basic symbols, and you have the following:

99 = ZDY-TT = Righteous Serpent
66 = SMK-VV = Support/Join
44 = MM-DLT = Water Door

Of course, a number of meanings might emerge from these symbols, but sexual intercourse and birth seem to be among the most obvious. Add to all this that we are discovering these synchronicities in 2011, the double numbers of which can be distilled into YD-ALF, or First Hand, and we have to wonder if we are seeing the hand of Zerah (the Seed) emerging from the Water Door.

Does anyone have some scarlet thread ready?
Fascinating connections Len! I hadn't noticed the Sakek/Vav double connection. It seems pretty strong.

S = 60
SMK = 120

V = 6
VV = 12

Very cool! And while thinking of "support" let us not forget that Pillar (ammud) = 120.

The double numbers are also very interesting. The appear in all aspects of the dream, including the dates of the dream (11/24) and the synchronicity (12/22).

I find it intriguing that I am waking up to this just prior to the 22nd anniversary which will happen on 12/22/12 (one day after the big 12/21/12 thing everyone seems so interested in).

Also, it is very curious that you happened to mention the "hidden remainder" since I was just thinking about that this morning, for the first time in 20 years! That's why I mentioned the fact that the name of "the 12th letter LMD can be read as 'L' (to) 'MD' (measure)." The "MD" is the "hidden remainder" of LMD. This idea plays a big role in the book by Haralick called "The Inner Meaning of the Hebrew Letters" which I took off the shelf and read this morning before you wrote your post talking about the "hidden remainder!" I find these kinds of synchronicities very encouraging. It feels like we are all caught up in a similar flow - sharing the same mind. Very cool!

Bob May
12-23-2011, 11:57 PM
Pomegranate is 296
Here are some interesting connections.

The Number 296
The Earth
HaAretz

The Mountain of God

Har HaElohim

Rock, Stone

Tsur

Coverings of Tapestry [Pro 31.22]

Marbadim

For a light of the Gentiles

L'Aur Goyim

Factors: 296 = 8 x 37

Multiples: 3 x 296 = 888, 5 x 296 = 1480

The curious girdle and robe of Aaron and the breastplate with twelve stones of the tribes seems to have to do with this.
There are pomegranetes on the robe. As the hanging veil behind the High Priestess.

Exodus 39
Ex 39:1 And of the blue, and purple, and scarlet, they made cloths of service, to do service in the holy place, and made the holy garments for Aaron; as the LORD commanded Moses.
Ex 39:2 And he made the ephod of gold, blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.
Ex 39:3 And they did beat the gold into thin plates, and cut it into wires, to work it in the blue, and in the purple, and in the scarlet, and in the fine linen, with cunning work.
Ex 39:4 They made shoulderpieces for it, to couple it together: by the two edges was it coupled together.
Ex 39:5 And the curious girdle of his ephod, that was upon it, was of the same, according to the work thereof; of gold, blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen; as the LORD commanded Moses.
Ex 39:6 And they wrought onyx stones enclosed in ouches of gold, graven, as signets are graven, with the names of the children of Israel.
Ex 39:7 And he put them on the shoulders of the ephod, that they should be stones for a memorial to the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses.
Ex 39:8 And he made the breastplate of cunning work, like the work of the ephod; of gold, blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.
Ex 39:9 It was foursquare; they made the breastplate double: a span was the length thereof, and a span the breadth thereof, being doubled.
Ex 39:10 And they set in it four rows of stones: the first row was a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this was the first row.
Ex 39:11 And the second row, an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
Ex 39:12 And the third row, a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
Ex 39:13 And the fourth row, a beryl, an onyx, and a jasper: they were enclosed in ouches of gold in their enclosings.
Ex 39:14 And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet, every one with his name, according to the twelve tribes.
Ex 39:15 And they made upon the breastplate chains at the ends, of wreathen work of pure gold.
Ex 39:16 And they made two ouches of gold, and two gold rings; and put the two rings in the two ends of the breastplate.
Ex 39:17 And they put the two wreathen chains of gold in the two rings on the ends of the breastplate.
Ex 39:18 And the two ends of the two wreathen chains they fastened in the two ouches, and put them on the shoulderpieces of the ephod, before it.
Ex 39:19 And they made two rings of gold, and put them on the two ends of the breastplate, upon the border of it, which was on the side of the ephod inward.
Ex 39:20 And they made two other golden rings, and put them on the two sides of the ephod underneath, toward the forepart of it, over against the other coupling thereof, above the curious girdle of the ephod.
Ex 39:21 And they did bind the breastplate by his rings unto the rings of the ephod with a lace of blue, that it might be above the curious girdle of the ephod, and that the breastplate might not be loosed from the ephod; as the LORD commanded Moses.
Ex 39:22 And he made the robe of the ephod of woven work, all of blue.
Ex 39:23 And there was an hole in the midst of the robe, as the hole of an habergeon, with a band round about the hole, that it should not rend.
Ex 39:24 And they made upon the hems of the robe pomegranates of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and twined linen.
Ex 39:25 And they made bells of pure gold, and put the bells between the pomegranates upon the hem of the robe, round about between the pomegranates;
Ex 39:26 A bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate, round about the hem of the robe to minister in; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Hag 2:19 Is the seed yet in the barn? yea, as yet the vine, and the fig tree, and the pomegranate, and the olive tree, hath not brought forth: from this day will I bless you.

Bob.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-24-2011, 01:44 AM
Pomegranate is 296
Here are some interesting connections.

The Number 296
The Earth
HaAretz

The Mountain of God

Har HaElohim

Rock, Stone

Tsur

Coverings of Tapestry [Pro 31.22]

Marbadim

For a light of the Gentiles

L'Aur Goyim

Factors: 296 = 8 x 37

Multiples: 3 x 296 = 888, 5 x 296 = 1480

The curious girdle and robe of Aaron and the breastplate with twelve stones of the tribes seems to have to do with this.
There are pomegranetes on the robe. As the hanging veil behind the High Priestess.


Those are some nice identities. The word for pomegranate is ramon = 296. It is based on the root ramam meaning "high" or "exalted." It fits well with the obelisk high and lifted up on the back of the elephant.

Bob May
12-24-2011, 06:36 AM
Those are some nice identities. The word for pomegranate is ramon = 296. It is based on the root ramam meaning "high" or "exalted." It fits well with the obelisk high and lifted up on the back of the elephant.

This is very appropo and interesting.
Deut, 5th book,.. 8th chapter,.. starting at the second verse,.. 582.

De 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
De 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

It is about God speaking to us. "And that He might make us KNOW IT." Revelation. This chapter lays out the reasons for the 40 years in the wilderness.
That what we get from the "voice of God" is not our doing.
It is all about God speaking to us and us becoming Established (40) in that Truth. This would be the elephant which is a solid base for the "mountain of God"/obilisk,.. and who never forgets.
It starts out small as manna, (what is it?) but leads to greater awareness of that "Voice of God."

De 8:7 For the LORD thy God bringeth thee into a good land, a land of brooks of water, of fountains and depths that spring out of valleys and hills; (Dreams and flashes of greater awareness)
De 8:8 A land of wheat, and barley, and vines, and fig trees, and pomegranates; (Rimmown 296) a land of oil olive, and honey;

De 8:11 Beware that thou forget not the LORD thy God, in not keeping his commandments, and his judgments, and his statutes, which I command thee this day:

De 8:14 Then thine heart be lifted up, and thou forget the LORD thy God, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage;
De 8:15 Who led thee through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water; who brought thee forth water out of the rock of flint;
De 8:16 Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that he might humble thee, and that he might prove thee, to do thee good at thy latter end; De 8:17 And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.

De 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: (elephant)for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
De 8:19 And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. (fall back into the state of not hearing the voice of God)
De 8:20 As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

Breaking the rules a little here, the same voice of the Lord can be seen with the woman at Jacob's well "I that speak to you am he.."
And Rachel.
rachel {raw-kale'} from an unused root meaning to journey; TWOT - 2145a; n f AV - ewe 2, sheep 2; 4 1) ewe
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

Mr 6:34 And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and was moved with compassion toward them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd: and he began to teach them many things.


Jer. 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.

God speaking from the ground through the blood (life) that was spilled.
Words are slightly different, Resh, Mem, Heh, (245)for the voice heard in Ramah,...
And Resh, Mem, Vav, Nun (296) for Rimmown,..
But we are possibly seeing the female principle in the Heh ending and Rimmown sounds like a male name to me.
Though the pronunciation might be similar.

But it all seems to fit with the idea of realizing God is speaking to us after coming out of wilderness testing, where we are not sure thast it is God speaking, we just know something is happening,, But "What is it???"

Coming out of the wilderness into the promised land is being Established in that knowing.
This is why Jesus when coming out of his Wilderness experience went immediately to the synagog and "Found Himself" in Scripture and also showed those around him (And US) what he had found.

This is the same pattern that manifests itself in our lives. We go through a period that we don't know what it is 40. Once we know what it is we are to stay in it. 40. Years for the Israelites, days and nights for Jesus.
Once we are established in this understanding we come out of this wilderness.
It is not for God's benefit that this testing/extablishing occurs, it is for ours. Because if we stay in it we recieve more.
It is not attainment, it is receptivity and belief in what is happening. Disbelief shuts off the receptors and we "die to" these higher things, the voice of God.

The elephant is obviously hearing as proves the large ears. But it is hearing much higher things as it is standing on stilt legs.
Also the phallus nose which can be used for many things just a sex enegy when used for higher things than obvious, can bring us to greater sensory awareness. This is the candlestick with seven lights.

Bob

Bob May
12-24-2011, 10:31 AM
I was in the hobby Lobby yesterday afternoon and these verses were on a plaque.

Pr 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pr 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

This seemed to sum up all of these conversations and I bought it and another for my brother-in-law.
Completing the circle and returning to God.

Bob

Richard Amiel McGough
12-24-2011, 10:56 AM
I was in the hobby Lobby yesterday afternoon and these verses were on a plaque.

Pr 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pr 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

This seemed to sum up all of these conversations and I bought it and another for my brother-in-law.
Completing the circle and returning to God.

Bob
That always was, of course, one of my favorite verses. But now I don't think it really has much meaning since it all hinges upon how I interpret "the LORD" ~ the primary options being either the basically Hindu concept that "Thou art that" (i.e. there is only one Self and each of us is it) or the traditional Theistic concept that there is a God "out there" utterly distinct from us. Now the beauty is that the Bible actually teaches the Hindu concept when it says that we are one with God. So I'll go with that. Then everything in the Bible is redeemed.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

We are "one with God" in exactly the same way as Christ! We are part of the Godhead ~ eternal as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We are divine, as declared by Peter:

2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 ¶ According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
We are partakers of the Divine Nature, one with God in exactly the same way as Christ himself.

How's that for a Christmas gift?

Merry Christmas one and all! (Or shall we say One and One or "I and I" as would our Rastafarian brothers and sisters?)

Richard

lenvande
12-26-2011, 12:07 AM
Of course, a number of meanings might emerge from these symbols, but sexual intercourse and birth seem to be among the most obvious. Add to all this that we are discovering these synchronicities in 2011, the double numbers of which can be distilled into YD-ALF, or First Hand, and we have to wonder if we are seeing the hand of Zerah (the Seed) emerging from the Water Door.

Does anyone have some scarlet thread ready?[/QUOTE]


This is one of those embarrassing etymology-by-sound moments that my classics professor warned me about. Of course, Zerah is not Zayin-Resh-Ayin, but rather Zayin-Resh-Chet. Hence, the name means 'rising' rather than 'seed.' Thank you for taking the 90% that was worthwhile in the post, and letting the translation oversight slip by.

Still, there is something to be gained by revisiting the name Zerah. Of course, Zerah is the twin brother of Pharez, who is the primogenitor of the Davidic and Messianic lines. However, some interesting synchronicities involving Zerah’s name are hidden underneath all the heavy furniture of Pharez’s power household. What struck me most regarding the Biblical usage of the name was this passage from the Blue Letter Bible Lexicon:

5) the Ethiopian or Cushite, invader of Judah in the reign of Asa who defeated the invaders; probably the same as the Egyptian king Usarken I, second king of the Egyptian 22nd dynasty or perhaps more probably Usarken II, his 2nd successor

After reading this, I was stunned that this otherwise forgotten king (Usarken or U-Sarak-en), recorded in an obscure chapter of 2nd Chronicles, was a member of the 22nd dynasty of Egypt.

I pushed this a little further by doing some of the gematria on Zerah’s name through the database but didn’t find much. However, when I combined the name with Pharez, his brother, I found the following:

Zerah (ZRCh) = 215
Pharez (PhRTs) = 370
Total 585

There was nothing particularly obvious about the weight or identities listed, but at the bottom appeared two verses that summed to 585. One was Psalm 54:6, which didn’t strike me as significant, but the other was Ezra 7:4:

The son of Zerahiah, the son of Uzzi, the son of Bukki

Here is a variation of the name Zerah in Ezra’s geneaology in a verse that sums to the same weight as Zerah’s and Pharez’s names summed together.

lenvande
12-30-2011, 12:20 AM
Richard and Bob,

I find the gymnastics you do with gematria to be inspiring. The insights you’ve both had regarding the 12 X 44 = 528 equation are truly incredible. Though my own skills with gematria are still developing, I believe I’m seeing some other synchronicities and would like to introduce them into the conversation.

First, all the double numbers in the chain of artistic influence from Colonna to Dali taken together, plus the 11 in the year in which it is all being discovered, total to 220: 99 + 66 + 44 + 11 = 220.

Written in Hebrew (220 = RK), you have a picture of a head and a giving hand. Munk says that the Kaf both gives and measures out what it is giving. Hence, just as MD means 'measure,' KR means 'measure,' too.

The Rosh likely stands for the head of a household, tribe, nation, etc. This seems probable for a couple of reasons. First, the numerical weight of the word for 'chosen/elect' (BChYR) equals 220. Also, when you compare 220 = RK or KR with 22 = KB, you get the following:

220 = Giving Hand + Head

Vs.

22 = Giving Hand + House

Therefore, what the house receives is valued at 22, while the head’s is valued at 220.

While MD is more of a generic measure, KR is a dry measure of 60 gallons (or 220 liters). The unit for 22 liters is an ephah, so the 'hand' measuring out 220 liters to the head is giving 10 times what it is giving to the rest of the household.

If you also consider that both 220 and 22 are divisible by the numerical weight of DM (44), you see the same ratio:

220/44 = 5

Vs.

22/44 = .5

.5 X 10 = 5

All this seems to fit the kingdom view pretty well. God’s house is full of servants. However, only the heads, those he appoints to participate in the Kingdom Age, will receive the greater portion:

Mat 24:45 `Who, then, is the servant, faithful and wise, whom his lord did set over his household, to give them the nourishment in season?
46 Happy that servant, whom his lord, having come, shall find doing so;
47 verily I say to you, that over all his substance he will set him.
48 `And, if that evil servant may say in his heart, My Lord doth delay to come,
49 and may begin to beat the fellow-servants, and to eat and to drink with the drunken,
50 the lord of that servant will arrive in a day when he doth not expect, and in an hour of which he doth not know,
51 and will cut him off, and his portion with the hypocrites will appoint; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-30-2011, 05:38 PM
Richard and Bob,

I find the gymnastics you do with gematria to be inspiring. The insights you’ve both had regarding the 12 X 44 = 528 equation are truly incredible. Though my own skills with gematria are still developing, I believe I’m seeing some other synchronicities and would like to introduce them into the conversation.

First, all the double numbers in the chain of artistic influence from Colonna to Dali taken together, plus the 11 in the year in which it is all being discovered, total to 220: 99 + 66 + 44 + 11 = 220.

Written in Hebrew (220 = RK), you have a picture of a head and a giving hand. Munk says that the Kaf both gives and measures out what it is giving. Hence, just as MD means 'measure,' KR means 'measure,' too.

The Rosh likely stands for the head of a household, tribe, nation, etc. This seems probable for a couple of reasons. First, the numerical weight of the word for 'chosen/elect' (BChYR) equals 220. Also, when you compare 220 = RK or KR with 22 = KB, you get the following:

220 = Giving Hand + Head

Vs.

22 = Giving Hand + House

Therefore, what the house receives is valued at 22, while the head’s is valued at 220.

While MD is more of a generic measure, KR is a dry measure of 60 gallons (or 220 liters). The unit for 22 liters is an ephah, so the 'hand' measuring out 220 liters to the head is giving 10 times what it is giving to the rest of the household.

If you also consider that both 220 and 22 are divisible by the numerical weight of DM (44), you see the same ratio:

220/44 = 5

Vs.

22/44 = .5

.5 X 10 = 5

All this seems to fit the kingdom view pretty well. God’s house is full of servants. However, only the heads, those he appoints to participate in the Kingdom Age, will receive the greater portion:

Mat 24:45 `Who, then, is the servant, faithful and wise, whom his lord did set over his household, to give them the nourishment in season?
46 Happy that servant, whom his lord, having come, shall find doing so;
47 verily I say to you, that over all his substance he will set him.
48 `And, if that evil servant may say in his heart, My Lord doth delay to come,
49 and may begin to beat the fellow-servants, and to eat and to drink with the drunken,
50 the lord of that servant will arrive in a day when he doth not expect, and in an hour of which he doth not know,
51 and will cut him off, and his portion with the hypocrites will appoint; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.

Hey there Len,

As I'm sure you know, the whole alphabet can be divided up into nine groups that have the same digital root:

Aleph (1) Yod (10) Quph (100)

Bet (2) Kaph (20) Resh (200)

etc.

Bet (House) and Resh (Head) go together very well. Indeed, the phrase Rosh Bet (Head of the House) is an anagram of the first word Bereshit (In the beginning).

And what is the "head" if not the "house" for the brain?

But adding the "double numbers" from the dates associated with the chain of art seems to be a pretty big stretch to me. That's the hardest part of gematria, separating the wheat from the chaff. :winking0071:

But don't let that discourage you. Gematria is an art, and profound insights can come from any direction. I was just letting you know how I see things.

Great chatting!

Richard

lenvande
12-30-2011, 10:00 PM
But adding the "double numbers" from the dates associated with the chain of art seems to be a pretty big stretch to me. That's the hardest part of gematria, separating the wheat from the chaff. :winking0071:

But don't let that discourage you. Gematria is an art, and profound insights can come from any direction. I was just letting you know how I see things.

Great chatting!

Richard

Richard,

If anything, I welcome your feedback, constructively critical or not. It does not discourage me and only helps sharpen our clarity on what qualifies as a synchronicity and what doesn't.

I respect your level of experience with this kind of thing, so I'd like to know your view a little more fully. Do you feel the double numbers adding to 220 is only a coincidence?

Len

lenvande
12-30-2011, 10:46 PM
Bet (House) and Resh (Head) go together very well. Indeed, the phrase Rosh Bet (Head of the House) is an anagram of the first word Bereshit (In the beginning).

And what is the "head" if not the "house" for the brain?



Richard,

Interesting you should say the "head" is the "house" of the brain. Earlier today, I checked out the copy of Colonna's Hypnerotomachia that you provided a link to on the 23rd. In the elephant section, the narrator says that the Latin phrase Cerebrum est in capite appears on the "poiterelle" (or the breastplate) worn by the elephant. My Latin isn't what it should be, but a direct translation would be something like "[The] brain is in [the] head."

Also, I just discovered that the edition you linked to has 220 pages total, and the above Latin phrase appears on page 44. Based on this and previous synchronicities, I'm pretty convinced that the double numbers summing to 220 is more than just coincidence.

Len

Richard Amiel McGough
12-30-2011, 11:37 PM
Richard,

If anything, I welcome your feedback, constructively critical or not. It does not discourage me and only helps sharpen our clarity on what qualifies as a synchronicity and what doesn't.

I respect your level of experience with this kind of thing, so I'd like to know your view a little more fully. Do you feel the double numbers adding to 220 is only a coincidence?

Len
Hi Len,

I'm glad you are not defensive about criticism. That's the only path to personal growth. :thumb:

As for the double digits, yes, it seems like it's probably just a "coincidence" but maybe I missed something so let me review how you arrived at them:

66 from 1667, The year the statue of the elephant with the obelisk was completed
99 from 1499, the year Hypnerotomachia Poliphili (which inspired the elephant and obelisk) was published
44 from the Dumbo Dream and/or the year the Dali painting of the "Dream Caused by the Flight of a Bee Around a Pomegranate"
11 from 2011, the current year in which we are holding this discussion.

Looking for meaning in the sum of these numbers seems arbitrary for a number of reasons. First, there could be many other relevant numbers and dates we could have included in the sum. Second, the repeated digits came from different parts of the year numbers (1499 vs. 1667). Third, there doesn't seem to be any "rule" or "logic" that would suggest adding them up would yield insight. It may be that there is meaning to be found in these kind of calculations, but the fundamental problem is that there seems to be too many possibilities and no way to discern between chance and design. And the fact that you began by selecting only multiples of eleven forced the sum to be a multiple of 11 too. So I just don't feel confident that this is anything but chance.

The path from the Dumbo Dream to Dali (who may have contributed to the psychedelic sequence "Pink Elephants on Parade") and the elephants with the obelisk is all very interesting, and I think it may well lead to some significant insight, but I don't feel confident that the sum of those numbers contains any meaning. It feels coincidental to me, but I could be wrong. And I very much appreciate your contributions.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
12-30-2011, 11:44 PM
Richard,

Interesting you should say the "head" is the "house" of the brain. Earlier today, I checked out the copy of Colonna's Hypnerotomachia that you provided a link to on the 23rd. In the elephant section, the narrator says that the Latin phrase Cerebrum est in capite appears on the "poiterelle" (or the breastplate) worn by the elephant. My Latin isn't what it should be, but a direct translation would be something like "[The] brain is in [the] head."

Also, I just discovered that the edition you linked to has 220 pages total, and the above Latin phrase appears on page 44. Based on this and previous synchronicities, I'm pretty convinced that the double numbers summing to 220 is more than just coincidence.

Len
Yes, I noticed that too when I read the elephant section. I thought it was pretty cool, but didn't see how it might lead to any more insight. I wasn't thinking about it when I mentioned Rosh Bet - that was stimulated by your comment about those two letters. So that's an interesting synchronicity.

And the 220 page count and appearance on page 44 are both intriguing. Once one begins noticing such things, they start to appear everywhere! On the morning of the Dumbo Dream, I discovered that 44 = DM (blood) on page 44 of Crowley's book 777 and noted that synchronicity in my notebook. So don't be discouraged if I seem to skeptical - it's been a lot of years since I thought "synchronistically."

Given the 220 page count and the page number 44, I can see why you would feel this confirms the sum of the double digits you derived. But the sum still does not strike me as strongly because it was not derived so directly. I'm always suspicious if there is too much manipulation of the numbers because the moment we start selecting and and calculating, the statistics go through the roof (combinatorics are factorial) and it becomes very hard to discern between chance and design.

Great chatting!

Richard

lenvande
12-31-2011, 01:24 AM
Richard,

Interesting you should say the "head" is the "house" of the brain. Earlier today, I checked out the copy of Colonna's Hypnerotomachia that you provided a link to on the 23rd. In the elephant section, the narrator says that the Latin phrase Cerebrum est in capite appears on the "poiterelle" (or the breastplate) worn by the elephant. My Latin isn't what it should be, but a direct translation would be something like "[The] brain is in [the] head."

Also, I just discovered that the edition you linked to has 220 pages total, and the above Latin phrase appears on page 44. Based on this and previous synchronicities, I'm pretty convinced that the double numbers summing to 220 is more than just coincidence.

Len

The above also dovetails with what I wrote last night about the "heads" receiving a great deal more than what the "house" receives. In capite can mean something like "in chief." According to Webster's Online, the expression was applied legally in feudal England:

Tenant in capite: [L. in in + capite, abl. of caput head, chief.], or Tenant in chief, by the laws of England, one who holds immediately of the king. According to the feudal system, all lands in England are considered as held immediately or mediately of the king, who is styled lord paramount. Such tenants, however, are considered as having the fee of the lands and permanent possession. --Blackstone.

This application of the expression to chief or "head" tenants whose lord has given them special rights of possessing and managing property parallels what Christ says of those who will be the "heads" in the Kingdom Age.

Likewise, the legal definition of in capite goes as follows:

By the head. Distribution or succession per capita, is said to take place when every one of the kindred in equal degree, and not jure representationis, receive an equal part of an estate.

While it does not involve sharing out parts of an estate, Matthew 20:1-16 (KJV) is somewhat of a parallel to what Christ says about laborers receiving the same wages:

1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man [that is] an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, [that] shall ye receive.
8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them [their] hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9 And when they came that [were hired] about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11 And when they had received [it], they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12 Saying, These last have wrought one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14 Take [that] thine [is], and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Again, the legal definition only applies indirectly as these laborers are clearly not the lord's kindred.

If we don't account for the steward, what Christ says about these hired laborers may seem to contrast with what he says in Matthew 19:29 (YLT):

and every one who left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or fields, for my name's sake, [B]an hundredfold shall receive, and life age-during shall inherit;

The steward is managing his lord's bookkeeping and is a member of his house. The laborers, however, are hired to work the vineyard. We do not know just how much of the lord's house the steward manages, so we can't tell if he is in control of a greater or smaller portion. Nevertheless, outside the lord's house, the laborers are entitled only to receive wages. They have no authority to control any of his property.

Toward the end of Matthew 20 (KJV), Jesus says:

26 but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

In light of the above definitions for in capite, perhaps receiving a hundred times what others do has nothing to do with "ownership" and everything to do with utilizing it in the service of others, those in the Outer Court, those who have no "head" to "house" the things of God.

lenvande
12-31-2011, 01:49 AM
Yes, I noticed that too when I read the elephant section. I thought it was pretty cool, but didn't see how it might lead to any more insight. I wasn't thinking about it when I mentioned Rosh Bet - that was stimulated by your comment about those two letters. So that's an interesting synchronicity.

And the 220 page count and appearance on page 44 are both intriguing. Once one begins noticing such things, they start to appear everywhere! On the morning of the Dumbo Dream, I discovered that 44 = DM (blood) on page 44 of Crowley's book 777 and noted that synchronicity in my notebook. So don't be discouraged if I seem to skeptical - it's been a lot of years since I thought "synchronistically."

Given the 220 page count and the page number 44, I can see why you would feel this confirms the sum of the double digits you derived. But the sum still does not strike me as strongly because it was not derived so directly. I'm always suspicious if there is too much manipulation of the numbers because the moment we start selecting and and calculating, the statistics go through the roof (combinatorics are factorial) and it becomes very hard to discern between chance and design.

Great chatting!

Richard

That is certainly fair, and I can appreciate where you're coming from mathematically-speaking. I decided to add the double numbers based strictly on intuition. I didn't consider statistical deviations or anything else of the sort.

Still, the number 22 keeps popping up, and 220 has popped up twice now. We'll see what else may surface in the future.

Thanks for a good discussion. I've really been enjoying participating. My wife and daughter are visiting a friend out of state right now, so I've had more opportunity to post my ideas.

Len

Bob May
12-31-2011, 04:58 AM
Richard and Bob,

I find the gymnastics you do with gematria to be inspiring. The insights you’ve both had regarding the 12 X 44 = 528 equation are truly incredible. Though my own skills with gematria are still developing, I believe I’m seeing some other synchronicities and would like to introduce them into the conversation.

First, all the double numbers in the chain of artistic influence from Colonna to Dali taken together, plus the 11 in the year in which it is all being discovered, total to 220: 99 + 66 + 44 + 11 = 220.

Written in Hebrew (220 = RK), you have a picture of a head and a giving hand. Munk says that the Kaf both gives and measures out what it is giving. Hence, just as MD means 'measure,' KR means 'measure,' too.

The Rosh likely stands for the head of a household, tribe, nation, etc. This seems probable for a couple of reasons. First, the numerical weight of the word for 'chosen/elect' (BChYR) equals 220. Also, when you compare 220 = RK or KR with 22 = KB, you get the following:

220 = Giving Hand + Head

Vs.

22 = Giving Hand + House

Therefore, what the house receives is valued at 22, while the head’s is valued at 220.

While MD is more of a generic measure, KR is a dry measure of 60 gallons (or 220 liters). The unit for 22 liters is an ephah, so the 'hand' measuring out 220 liters to the head is giving 10 times what it is giving to the rest of the household.

If you also consider that both 220 and 22 are divisible by the numerical weight of DM (44), you see the same ratio:

220/44 = 5

Vs.

22/44 = .5

.5 X 10 = 5

All this seems to fit the kingdom view pretty well. God’s house is full of servants. However, only the heads, those he appoints to participate in the Kingdom Age, will receive the greater portion:

Mat 24:45 `Who, then, is the servant, faithful and wise, whom his lord did set over his household, to give them the nourishment in season?
46 Happy that servant, whom his lord, having come, shall find doing so;
47 verily I say to you, that over all his substance he will set him.
48 `And, if that evil servant may say in his heart, My Lord doth delay to come,
49 and may begin to beat the fellow-servants, and to eat and to drink with the drunken,
50 the lord of that servant will arrive in a day when he doth not expect, and in an hour of which he doth not know,
51 and will cut him off, and his portion with the hypocrites will appoint; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.

Hi Len and Richard,
Some interesting insights here.
I think the important thing is to realize there is something going on, rather than how much mathmatical sense synchronicities have. That is what I mean when I say that there is a 2000 pound elephant in the room.
We beling half blind may mistake him for very like a fan or a great wall or a rope or a great serpent depending upon which direction we approach him from.
We can all agree that the elephant is there.
This is like the city in the book of Revelation. Twelve gates by which we can enter. Four directions by which can approach the city.

Len pointed out this:

220 = Giving Hand + Head
Vs.
22 = Giving Hand + House

Let's look at it linearly, instead of "Vs."

So the giving hand is The Father, Kaph: 20,..Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

The Head is Christ, Resh: 200,..Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

The giving hand of the Father through the son, Kaph: 20,..Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

The house of God, Us Beth: 2,..Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

So, what the Father gives to Jesus, Jesus gives to us and we as members of his body (House) share with each other.

Kaph, Resh, Kaph, Beth.,..242 karkob {kar-kobe'} expanded from the same as 03522; TWOT - 1038a; n m AV - compass 2; 2 1) edge, rim
Gematria: 242
Exo 27:5 And thou shalt put it under the compass of the altar beneath, that the net may be even to the midst of the altar. Bk
Chpt
Vs

Verse # = 2278 | Words = 11 | Letters = 44
Data from Strong's Concordance
KJV Hebrew Strong's # Value
And thou shalt put נתן H5414 nathan 500
it under the compass כרכב H3749 karkob 242 of the altar מזבח H4196 mizbeach 57
beneath, מטה H4295 mattah 54
that the net רשת H7568 resheth 900
may be even to עד H5704 `ad 74
the midst חצי H2677 chetsiy 108
of the altar. מזבח H4196 mizbeach 57

Ex 27:3 And thou shalt make his pans to receive his ashes, and his shovels, and his basins, and his fleshhooks, and his firepans: all the vessels thereof thou shalt make of brass.
Ex 27:4 And thou shalt make for it a grate of network of brass; and upon the net shalt thou make four brazen rings in the four corners thereof.
Ex 27:5 And thou shalt put it under the compass 242of the altar beneath, that the net may be even to the midst of the altar.

So, we have the idea of a net made of brass,..a filter that removes the large parts of bones and such from burnt offerings.
Applying this to ourselves we also have a filter which I just described above.
Is what we are learning from the reaffirmations and such coming fromthe Father through the son to us?
That is the Grate or filter we are reaching for.
And when we see that it is happening we will know that it is happening.

Isa 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Joh 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

I just read the book "Water for Elephants" that just happened to be in a Kindle that my wife just happened to find on a plane. Good book. We watched the movie tonight, also good, but not near as good as the book.
What the movie missed was that the story was about a guy in an old peoples home. He was 90 or 93, he could not remember which. Being so old, he had a tendancy to fall asleep a lot. When he did, he kept flashing back into dreams about his life as part of a train circus during the time of the Great Depression.

My life seems a bit like this at times. Not that I fall asleep in the normal sense of the word. I do not have narcolepsy.
But I get into these states where the Lord speaks to me for a time and then back to normal state again.
Which is the dream? Which is real?
That is the brass grate that compasses the altar. The Filter. That is the choice we make and we are the burnt offering,...or not.

I think if we make the choice to filter out all that is not of the same mindset or doctrine of Jesus, it will all lead us and point the way back home.

Bob

kathryn
12-31-2011, 07:26 AM
Hi Richard, Len and Bob....Bob...you mentioned the 12 gates; the "220" is also the numerical weight for the doorkeeper...so in that sense, it describes a "threshold" from one realm into another.

If you recall the synchronicity surrounding my father's death in the room I was birthed in (340) on his 34034 day...he died just after sundown on the 2/20 (or the threshold of the next day)
On this same "threshold" date and time...I had two other events years apart, that pointed to the same theme. The deed for our old house, was passed to new owners...and three years later, the deed to a new house passed to us.

What was particularly interesting, was the the old house was at the foot of Mt. Tabor (in Prince George..not Israel) in the south (Tabor comes the root meaning to break or crush)...the new house, several hundred feet above Mt. Tabor facing the mountain from the north. This death/birth theme carried through in many other details surrounding that "220" and the threshold of the next or new day.

(regarding the "34"..I don't know if I mentioned it before, but the year of the move to the new house, both my eldest daughter and I received an inheritance from our fathers, of 34,000. The gematria for inheritance, 93... factored into the time from death to the burial of the ashes of both fathers so there is that "filtering" theme of the ashes you mentioned, with the burnt offerings.)

This will seem terribly subjective to some, but as you say, it's all in how you view the elephant in the room:-)

kathryn
12-31-2011, 08:55 AM
I don't want to take this off topic...but wanted to mention that today is both the tail of the old year and head of the New Year. It is 12/31. Have a look at what the numerical weight of 1231 describes:

http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_1231.asp Interesting that it is both "to put to death/ execution"(tail) and the "crown"(head).

Note that the "23" theme of death and life, the alef tav, is coming through the two pillars or "11": 1 23 1.

I know the date is now placed at the beginning...but I've found that the old way of placing the day in the middle has applied in all of the "synchronicity" I've experienced and is also confirmed in gematria as it describes the "to day" concept in the realm of spirit, or the "midst. (as do names).

Richard's dumbo dream was on the 11/24...or the lamed/ox goad/tongue coming through the "14" or Nun, High Priest: 1 12 4. (14 is also the gematria for "aha" :winking0071:)

kathryn
12-31-2011, 09:55 AM
I don't want to take this off topic...but wanted to mention that today is both the tail of the old year and head of the New Year. It is 12/31. Have a look at what the numerical weight of 1231 describes:

http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_1231.asp Interesting that it is both "to put to death/ execution"(tail) and the "crown"(head).

Note that the "23" theme of death and life, the alef tav, is coming through the two pillars or "11": 1 23 1.

I know the date is now placed at the beginning...but I've found that the old way of placing the day in the middle has applied in all of the "synchronicity" I've experienced and is also confirmed in gematria as it describes the "to day" concept in the realm of spirit, or the "midst. (as do names).

Richard's dumbo dream was on the 11/24...or the lamed/ox goad/tongue coming through the "14" or Nun, High Priest: 1 12 4. (14 is also the gematria for "aha" :winking0071:)

1124 is 4 (dalet/door) x 281...both beauty and ashes: http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_281.asp

lenvande
12-31-2011, 10:18 AM
Hi Richard, Len and Bob....Bob...you mentioned the 12 gates; the "220" is also the numerical weight for the doorkeeper...so in that sense, it describes a "threshold" from one realm into another.

If you recall the synchronicity surrounding my father's death in the room I was birthed in (340) on his 34034 day...he died just after sundown on the 2/20 (or the threshold of the next day)
On this same "threshold" date and time...I had two other events years apart, that pointed to the same theme. The deed for our old house, was passed to new owners...and three years later, the deed to a new house passed to us.

What was particularly interesting, was the the old house was at the foot of Mt. Tabor (in Prince George..not Israel) in the south (Tabor comes the root meaning to break or crush)...the new house, several hundred feet above Mt. Tabor facing the mountain from the north. This death/birth theme carried through in many other details surrounding that "220" and the threshold of the next or new day.

(regarding the "34"..I don't know if I mentioned it before, but the year of the move to the new house, both my eldest daughter and I received an inheritance from our fathers, of 34,000. The gematria for inheritance, 93... factored into the time from death to the burial of the ashes of both fathers so there is that "filtering" theme of the ashes you mentioned, with the burnt offerings.)

This will seem terribly subjective to some, but as you say, it's all in how you view the elephant in the room:-)

Interesting that the 220th post comes at the end of the 22nd page of this thread.

lenvande
12-31-2011, 10:51 AM
Interesting that the 220th post comes at the end of the 22nd page of this thread.

Ah! I just realized the pages are organized by 10 posts each. Therefore, the 220th would naturally come at the end of the 22nd page. My mistake.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-31-2011, 11:30 AM
Hi Richard, Len and Bob....Bob...you mentioned the 12 gates; the "220" is also the numerical weight for the doorkeeper...so in that sense, it describes a "threshold" from one realm into another.

If you recall the synchronicity surrounding my father's death in the room I was birthed in (340) on his 34034 day...he died just after sundown on the 2/20 (or the threshold of the next day)
On this same "threshold" date and time...I had two other events years apart, that pointed to the same theme. The deed for our old house, was passed to new owners...and three years later, the deed to a new house passed to us.

What was particularly interesting, was the the old house was at the foot of Mt. Tabor (in Prince George..not Israel) in the south (Tabor comes the root meaning to break or crush)...the new house, several hundred feet above Mt. Tabor facing the mountain from the north. This death/birth theme carried through in many other details surrounding that "220" and the threshold of the next or new day.

(regarding the "34"..I don't know if I mentioned it before, but the year of the move to the new house, both my eldest daughter and I received an inheritance from our fathers, of 34,000. The gematria for inheritance, 93... factored into the time from death to the burial of the ashes of both fathers so there is that "filtering" theme of the ashes you mentioned, with the burnt offerings.)

This will seem terribly subjective to some, but as you say, it's all in how you view the elephant in the room:-)
Hey there Kathryn,

I'm seeing some very intriguing stuff here. The word translated as "doorkeeper" is actually a denominative verb meaning "to stand at the threshold." Thus, there is a big difference in the numerical value of the triliteral root SPP = 220 and the way it is written in the text, namely:

Doorkeeper (הסתופף , histopheph) = 631

The Number 631 is prime. It is the value of a number of closely related ideas, most notably this identity from Psalm 118:20:

The Gate of the Lord ( השער ליהוה , HaSha'ar L'YHVH) = 631

And to top it off, the ultimate "gate" to God is death which, along with birth, is one of the two universal doors (Dalet) of which you spoke:

Death ( θανατος , Thanatos) = 631

The numbers 34 and 34034 both resonate strongly with Dalet = 434.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-31-2011, 11:40 AM
Ah! I just realized the pages are organized by 10 posts each. Therefore, the 220th would naturally come at the end of the 22nd page. My mistake.
Yeah, the number of posts per page is defaulted to 10. I could change it to anything I want. That's why I tend to refrain from reporting those kinds of coincidences - I don't want to clog up the airwaves with too much potential "noise" since that would block the "message." But on the other hand, we don't want to have the "noise filter" set so high that it blocks the message either! So it's a kind of "semantic yoga" where we seek to find the optimal signal to noise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal-to-noise_ratio) ratio.

lenvande
12-31-2011, 12:42 PM
So the giving hand is The Father, Kaph: 20,..Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.



You're making so many excellent points, Bob, that I'm going to break up my responses to those that especially stood out to me.

Father of light/s = 13 + 207 = 220

Also, some other interesting comparisons between 22 and 220 identities:

22

GDYH - Female goat
ChTH - Wheat

220

KR - Lamb
MTsTs - To be unleavened

The Feast of Unleavened Bread celebrated the barley harvest while the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost celebrated the wheat harvest. The bread of the first was baked without leaven while the bread of the second was leavened. These feasts represent the first and second resurrections. The barley harvest as represented by MTsTs = 220 will receive its reward first and in abundance. The second general resurrection will result in the separation of wheat (ChTCh = 22) and chaff.

Likewise, regarding the second resurrection, Christ says in Matthew 25:31-46 (YLT),

31 `And whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory;

32 and gathered together before him shall be all the nations, and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats,

33 and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left.

34 `Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

35 for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me;

36 naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me.

37 `Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink?

38 and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around?

39 and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?

40 `And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did [it].

41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

42 for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;

43 a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me.

44 `Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee?

45 `Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of these, the least, ye did [it] not to me.

46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

In the beginning of the same chapter of Matthew, Jesus says that the wise virgins who were ready with their lamp oil were admitted to the wedding feast and the wise servants who doubled their master's original investment with them were admitted into the joy of their lord. These inherit the Kingdom Age and thus the greater portion.

The sheep at the second resurrection inherit next but not in as great proportion as the wise virgins and servants. The goats are resurrected but go to age-during fire. More on this in my next post.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-31-2011, 01:59 PM
You're making so many excellent points, Bob, that I'm going to break up my responses to those that especially stood out to me.

Father of light/s = 13 + 207 = 220

That's a beautiful identity. Avi Aur = 220.

All this talk of 220 made me go back and look at the identities I had listed (http://biblewheel.com/gr/gr_220.asp) under that number. The "sure foundation" (musad mussad) looks particularly interesting because musad is spelled MVSD which is a VS (Vav Samek) = 66 sandwiched between a MD = 44. The value of wheel (galgal) = 66 and that's the number of books in the Bible.

And both are factors in the Key = 528 = 8 x 66 = 12 x 44.

Bob May
12-31-2011, 06:29 PM
You're making so many excellent points, Bob, that I'm going to break up my responses to those that especially stood out to me.

Father of light/s = 13 + 207 = 220

Also, some other interesting comparisons between 22 and 220 identities:

22

GDYH - Female goat
ChTH - Wheat

220

KR - Lamb
MTsTs - To be unleavened

The Feast of Unleavened Bread celebrated the barley harvest while the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost celebrated the wheat harvest. The bread of the first was baked without leaven while the bread of the second was leavened. These feasts represent the first and second resurrections. The barley harvest as represented by MTsTs = 220 will receive its reward first and in abundance. The second general resurrection will result in the separation of wheat (ChTCh = 22) and chaff.

Likewise, regarding the second resurrection, Christ says in Matthew 25:31-46 (YLT),


In the beginning of the same chapter of Matthew, Jesus says that the wise virgins who were ready with their lamp oil were admitted to the wedding feast and the wise servants who doubled their master's original investment with them were admitted into the joy of their lord. These inherit the Kingdom Age and thus the greater portion.

The sheep at the second resurrection inherit next but not in as great proportion as the wise virgins and servants. The goats are resurrected but go to age-during fire. More on this in my next post.


Hi Len, Richard, Kathryn and all,

I didn't know that about the leavened and unleavened/wheat and barley. But it makes perfect sense.

Jesus makes a case for Leaven in the parable of the leavened dough.
Mt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Bk
Chpt
Vs

Isaiah 28:16
Verse # = 18181 | Words = 18 | Letters = 64
Data from Strong's Concordance
KJV Hebrew Strong's # Value
Therefore thus saith אמר H0559 'amar 241
the Lord אדני H0136 'Adonay 65
GOD, יהוה H3069 Yehovih 26
Behold, I lay יסד H3245 yacad 74
in Zion ציון H6726 Tsiyown 156
for a foundation a stone, אבן H0068 'eben 53 a tried בחן H0976 bochan 60
stone, אבן H0068 'eben 53
a precious יקר H3368 yaqar 310
corner פנה H6438 pinnah 135
stone, a sure יסד H3245 yacad 74
foundation: מוסד H4143 muwcad 110 he that believeth אמן H0539 'aman 91
shall not make haste. חוש H2363 chuwsh 314

Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.


Isaiah 52:12
Verse # = 18709 | Words = 14 | Letters = 59
Data from Strong's Concordance
KJV Hebrew Strong's # Value
For ye shall not go out יצא H3318 yatsa' 101
with haste, חפזון H2649 chippazown 151
nor go ילך H3212 yalak 60
by flight: מנוסה H4499 menuwcah 161
for the LORD יהוה H3068 Yehovah 26
will go הלך H1980 halak 55
before פנים H6440 paniym 180
you; and the God אלהים H0430 'elohiym 86
of Israel ישראל H3478 Yisra'el 541
will be your rereward. אסף H0622 'acaph 141

Isa 52:12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

The foundation is Eben,..stone,.. Aleph, Beth, Nun.
It is also Father, AB and Son, Ben. Which is exactly what I showed in my last post.
The giving hand of the Father through the giving hand of the Son,..That is the foundation.

But the not making haste is the thing I was trying to point out.
The reason for there not being leaven in the first Passover out of Egypt was that there was no time for the leaven to rise.
The old "leaven"= "doctrines" must be got rid of by fire.
Mt 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Leaven is Doctrine,..Good, Bad or Ugly!!!

To realize we are in the Kingdom of Heaven now we must get rid of our doctrine and cleave to the Doctrine of Jesus which is the doctrine of the Father.
Mr 4:2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,
Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

It takes a while to replace our unbelieving doctrine with His. After all Jesus does not come to people now days and speak to them, right???
Not if they are unwilling to listen.
And running throughout this Doctrine of the Father through the son, Jesus is Grace,... 5.
Almost every number we have come up with, as shown by Deb, can be divide by 5.

The children of Israel left Egypt in haste, but it took 40 years to get through the wilderness and enter the Promised land. And in the process a whole generation of Israelites were replaced by a new generation. ("Till the whole was leavened")
That is our world view changing. It has to be completely replaced by the new foundation based on Grace and the foundation that the promises that were made will be and are being kept.

Isa 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
Isa 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good,(= Grace..) that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! (= the Kingdom of Heaven.)

So, when is that day???

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

Bob

Bob May
01-01-2012, 09:57 AM
Hi all,

I'll be going to Texas very early tomorrow morning and will be there until Friday.
I don't know if I will have access to a computer or not so I might not be able to respond to threads.
I do have a Kindle that my son got me for Christmas so I will try to keep up with the conversations as much as possible.
But my postings may be short.
I hope you all have a great start to the New Year!

Bob

kathryn
01-01-2012, 10:07 AM
Happy New Year All! That's a good post about doctrine Bob. I was thinking of the "rereward" the other day, when we were talking about the integrated circuit (and the "head" swallowing the "tail").
In the march around Jericho, the ark or "head" began the circuit, the rereward followed in the rear. They did 13 (love/unity) completed circuits before the wall of Jericho fell.
Jericho is a type of the carnal mind (and doctrines) of man...which are destroyed when the power in the circuit returns to its source...or the "head/ark" and "rereward" are re-mem-ber-ed in love/unity. The word "rereward" has the meaning of both gathering and removing.

Richard...thanks for the info on the "631" and the doorkeeper. I didn't realize this!

lenvande
01-01-2012, 01:40 PM
Unfortunately, like Bob a couple weeks ago, I spent a great deal of time and effort on a post last night but lost it during the preview. I believe this was due to the fact that I’d left it for a few hours to spend time with my son. When I came back, I spent a while longer researching and writing, then tried to go to the preview page, and Voila! the post was gone. I tried the auto-restore feature, but it only returned one sentence. Therefore, even though I managed to gain some insight for myself concerning what happens to the goats at the second resurrection, I believe now that discussing it at length here may be a bit off-topic, so I’m going to abandon that particular theme in favor of another.

Having said that, I was reading through the elephant section in Colonna’s Hypnerotomachia and came across more information that seems to articulate the nature of the elephant’s relationship to the obelisk. As Richard said in an earlier post, the text describes the obelisk as passing through the elephant. As you can see in the picture below, this seems to be exactly the case:

254

The narrator goes on to give more information about the obelisk passing through the elephant, saying he was able to ascend a number of steps and enter into the base by a cavern. Inside, he was able to verify that the obelisk did indeed pass through the elephant. Likewise, he was able to see two sepulchers, one with the statue of a nude king holding a shield and pointing a scepter, and the other with the statue of a nude queen pointing 'to that part behind her shoulders' with the 'foremost finger' of her right hand and holding a tablet in her left. Upon the tablet was written an epigram in three languages, one of which is Hebrew. Here are pictures of the scene, along with the epigram, that Colonna provides:

255

256

As others on this forum have better skill with Hebrew grammar than I do and because the letters are smudged here and there, I thought I would introduce the epigram into the discussion to see if anyone else can translate. (Here is a link to the online copy I've been reading: http://www.archive.org/stream/hypnerot00colluoft#page/n47/mode/2up)

It seems to me that the two statues are playing Vav and Samek roles, mirroring the elephant and obelisk. The man is pointing with his scepter upright (like the obelisk) and the woman is pointing to her back (that part of the elephant that apparently supports the obelisk). Likewise, there is clearly a reference to sexual intercourse. The elephant/samek is being penetrated by the obelisk/vav.

lenvande
01-01-2012, 11:39 PM
I’m revisiting the sum of the double numbers that appear in the chain of artistic influences (from Colonna to Dali) and the year our discussion of it originated (2011). There are a few other things that are peculiar about these numbers and how they are positioned. Chronologically, the double numbers are arranged in descending order. I’ve looked at the identities and see some interesting connections here and there but not enough to discuss them at length here.

What I’ve noted most is that, if we use the heuristic provided on the Wheel and World History forum, the century numbers correspond to the following Hebrew letters:

Cen. Letter
15th Samek
17th Pey
20th Resh
21st Shin

What is interesting about how the letters are arranged is that you can make out direct spellings of different words without the use of anagrams. Though there are a few, the two that stand out most to me are the following:

SPR = To write or scribe

PRSh = To separate (the root of Pharisee)

The two letters that both words share are PR (280). When I researched this number, I came up with some interesting identities from Bill Heidrick’s website on Hebrew Gematria. (Here is a link to the page I consulted for a full view of what he’s listed there: (http://billheidrick.com/works/hgm2/hg0280.htm#280):

HORH – to make naked, to uncover or expose
HPK LMOLH – to turn right over
HRYSH – a tearing down, a ruin
YRO – to tremble, to shake
MMR – bitterness or sorrow
SKR – to shut up; also, to hire
OYR – a city; heat; anger; suckling, a young ass, a foal or colt
ORVD – a wild ass

Not everything listed under the numeric weight of 280 is bad or undesirable. However, much, if not most, of what is given echoes the fall of Jerusalem.

Also interesting are the two references to young and wild asses. Of course, Jesus came to Jerusalem riding an ass and colt. Many rabbis believe that there are either two Messiahs or two possible ways he might come alluded to in the TNK. If Jews are worthy, he will come on a horse. If not, he will come on a donkey.

Stephen E. Jones of God’s Kingdom Ministries compares donkeys to the wheat harvest and oxen to the barley harvest. Oxen are much hardier draft animals than donkeys just like barley is much hardier than wheat. Oxen can easily outwork donkeys, and unlike wheat, which is highly dependent on the rainy seasons, barley can grow even in drought. According to Jones, oxen and barley, which is used for the Feast of Unleavened Bread, represent those who are resurrected first and given the greater reward. Donkeys and wheat, which is used for the Feast of Weeks and leavened, represent those who are resurrected second and given a lesser or even no reward.

The point is that, according to the NT, Jerusalem was destined to fall because of the wild-ass and leavened dispositions of the Pharisees and scribes. Therefore, I find it very interesting that the roots of these titles are near anagrams of each other, the only difference being the Samek in SPR and the Shin in PRSh, and that the identities of the numerical weight they share mirror so much of what Jesus said about them and what would ultimately happen to Jerusalem if they did not accept him as Messiah:

Matt 21:42 (KJV) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

Those religious leaders in Jerusalem who believed in resurrection expected to be resurrected first and reign during the Kingdom Age. It is understandable, then, that they would be indignant to hear that they would be at the second general resurrection and that another nation would inherit the first. In other words, Gentiles would become the heads in the Kingdom and be given the greater portion.

Richard Amiel McGough
01-02-2012, 11:54 AM
Unfortunately, like Bob a couple weeks ago, I spent a great deal of time and effort on a post last night but lost it during the preview. I believe this was due to the fact that I’d left it for a few hours to spend time with my son. When I came back, I spent a while longer researching and writing, then tried to go to the preview page, and Voila! the post was gone. I tried the auto-restore feature, but it only returned one sentence. Therefore, even though I managed to gain some insight for myself concerning what happens to the goats at the second resurrection, I believe now that discussing it at length here may be a bit off-topic, so I’m going to abandon that particular theme in favor of another.

Having said that, I was reading through the elephant section in Colonna’s Hypnerotomachia and came across more information that seems to articulate the nature of the elephant’s relationship to the obelisk. As Richard said in an earlier post, the text describes the obelisk as passing through the elephant. As you can see in the picture below, this seems to be exactly the case:



The narrator goes on to give more information about the obelisk passing through the elephant, saying he was able to ascend a number of steps and enter into the base by a cavern. Inside, he was able to verify that the obelisk did indeed pass through the elephant. Likewise, he was able to see two sepulchers, one with the statue of a nude king holding a shield and pointing a scepter, and the other with the statue of a nude queen pointing 'to that part behind her shoulders' with the 'foremost finger' of her right hand and holding a tablet in her left. Upon the tablet was written an epigram in three languages, one of which is Hebrew. Here are pictures of the scene, along with the epigram, that Colonna provides:

255

256

As others on this forum have better skill with Hebrew grammar than I do and because the letters are smudged here and there, I thought I would introduce the epigram into the discussion to see if anyone else can translate. (Here is a link to the online copy I've been reading: http://www.archive.org/stream/hypnerot00colluoft#page/n47/mode/2up)

It seems to me that the two statues are playing Vav and Samek roles, mirroring the elephant and obelisk. The man is pointing with his scepter upright (like the obelisk) and the woman is pointing to her back (that part of the elephant that apparently supports the obelisk). Likewise, there is clearly a reference to sexual intercourse. The elephant/samek is being penetrated by the obelisk/vav.
Hey there Len,

There certainly is not end to where this rabbit trail will lead! It would take some time to read and understand the whole book. It's really curious though that it is all about a dream vision, and that we were led here from the Dumbo Dream.

The inscriptions are difficult for two reasons. One, they are hard to read, and two, they may contain made up words! (Poliphori is known for that).

I'll see if I can figure them out as time permits.

All the best,

Richard

kathryn
01-03-2012, 07:44 AM
Hi Richard....a little synchronicity to add to the list :-) We sat down last night to watch a movie for the first time in months..."Unknown" with Liam Neeson. He's in a car accident and is unconscious for four days. When he wakes up, the medical staff tell him it's November 24th. :)

lenvande
01-03-2012, 07:50 AM
Hey there Len,

There certainly is not end to where this rabbit trail will lead! It would take some time to read and understand the whole book. It's really curious though that it is all about a dream vision, and that we were led here from the Dumbo Dream.

The inscriptions are difficult for two reasons. One, they are hard to read, and two, they may contain made up words! (Poliphori is known for that).

I'll see if I can figure them out as time permits.

All the best,

Richard

Okay, Richard. Thanks for taking a look. I appreciate it.

I half-thought Colonna might have just written some Hebrew gibberish. Regardless, what confused me most was the way he wrote what looked like either sameks or final mems (inappropriately placed) and either heys, chets, or tavs.

Thanks again, Richard, and all the best to you and yours.

Len

Richard Amiel McGough
01-03-2012, 11:09 AM
Okay, Richard. Thanks for taking a look. I appreciate it.

I half-thought Colonna might have just written some Hebrew gibberish. Regardless, what confused me most was the way he wrote what looked like either sameks or final mems (inappropriately placed) and either heys, chets, or tavs.

Thanks again, Richard, and all the best to you and yours.

Len
Hey there Len,

I don't think it's gibberish - scholars say he made up words (neologisms) and I'm thinking he might be like a medieval James Joyce, who also played an important role in my awakening during the Dumbo Dream time. Specifically, Joyce's Finnegans Wake is a "dream book" of puns and neologisms from beginning to end, and many dream-like overlapping images. It's really an amazing book but it can be very difficult to understand. It is very popular amongst a few of the "trippers" who explore higher consciousness, dreams, and other altered states. I had a dream where I picked up Joyce's personal sigla he devised for HCE - it was years before I discovered what it meant. Here is the entry from my dream journal from 12/1/1990:
Swimming in a blue pool, lots under water, full of kids playing. I talked to them in bubbles. Health tests came back. Everything OK except a few cases of spinach stomach. One kid's test came back too late for him to participate.
Saw a thin copy of Finnegans Wake Guide Boo with FW interlaced as some pair of Hebrew letters on the cover - hologrammic - refracts light to get different letters.

Here's a pic of from my dream journal so you can see the form of the interlocking letters on the cover (note that it was the same morning that I had the dream about the Master who wanted to play a game of "pool" for "2 or 3 bucks." See the pun? In the next dream I was swimming in a "pool."

257

The images at the bottom are very rough representations. In the dream, they were like holographs that would change to different interlocking letters depending on the angle of view. The first is an F interlocking with a W and the second is two horizontal letters E. It was a couple years later that I discovered this was Joyce's own private sigla for his central character HCE = Humphrey Chimden Earwicker. Here's a page from the book The Sigla of Finnegans Wake (http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/JoyceColl/JoyceColl-idx?type=turn&entity=JoyceColl.McHughSigla.p0016&id=JoyceColl.McHughSigla&isize=M&pview=hide) where the symbols are defined:

258
The other main character was ALP (Anna Livia Plurabilities) = Aleph = 111. She was represented by a triangle. Joyce had a lot of Kabbalism in his book ... indeed, he attempted to represent the entire universe in it!

Given that Finnegans Wake invaded my dreams, I felt inclined to see what was on page 528 (http://www.lycaeum.org/mv/Finnegan/viewpage.cgi?page=528&like=Emporer%7CIreland) of Finnegans Wake. Imagine my surprise when I found a reference to Jumbo followed by the words Ding Dong! (Dalet Dalet ==> 44), as well as the concept of knocking and opening a door:
Eusapia! Fais-le, tout-tait! Languishing hysteria? The clou
historique? How is this at all? Is dads the thing in such or are
tits the that? Hear we here her first poseproem of suora unto
suora? Alicious, twinstreams twinestraines, through alluring
glass or alas in jumboland? Ding dong! Where's your pal in
silks alustre? Think of a maiden, Presentacion. Double her,
Annupciacion. Take your first thoughts away from her,
Immacolacion. Knock and it shall appall unto you! Who shone yet
shimmers will be e'er scheining. Cluse her, voil her, hild her hindly.
After liryc and themodius soft aglo iris of the vals. This young
barlady, what, euphemiasly? Is she having an ambidual act
herself in apparition with herself as Consuelas to Sonias may?

Dang! And tether, a loguy O !

Dis and dat and dese and dose ! Your crackling out of your
turn, my Moonster firefly, like always. And 2 R.N. and
Longhorns Connacht, stay off my air! You've grabbed the capital and
you've had the lion's shire since 1542 but there's all the difference
in Ireland between your borderation, my chatty cove, and me. The
leinstrel boy to the wall is gone and there's moreen astoreen for
Monn and Conn. With the tyke's named moke. Doggymens'
nimmer win! You last led the first when we last but we'll first
trump your last with a lasting. Jump the railchairs or take them,
as you please, but and, sir, my queskins first, foxyjack! Ye've as
much skullabogue cheek on you now as would boil a caldron of kalebrose.


Much of the symbolism is very meaningful to me personally, but I can't explain it all right now.

The point of all this is to show that Poliphori seems a lot like a medieval version of Joyce, and that both are "dream books" and contain images closely linked to the Dumbo Dream. Also, given your interest in tracing these things out, I thought it important for you to know about Finnegans Wake.

Oh, and here is one persons take on the whole structure of Finnegans Wake. Note the siglas on top for HCE, ALP, etc. And the "four cycles" are intriguing, of course!

259



Great chatting!

Richard

lenvande
01-03-2012, 08:46 PM
Hey there Len,

I don't think it's gibberish - scholars say he made up words (neologisms) and I'm thinking he might be like a medieval James Joyce, who also played an important role in my awakening during the Dumbo Dream time. Specifically, Joyce's Finnegans Wake is a "dream book" of puns and neologisms from beginning to end, and many dream-like overlapping images. It's really an amazing book but it can be very difficult to understand. It is very popular amongst a few of the "trippers" who explore higher consciousness, dreams, and other altered states. I had a dream where I picked up Joyce's personal sigla he devised for HCE - it was years before I discovered what it meant. Here is the entry from my dream journal from 12/1/1990:
Swimming in a blue pool, lots under water, full of kids playing. I talked to them in bubbles. Health tests came back. Everything OK except a few cases of spinach stomach. One kid's test came back too late for him to participate.
Saw a thin copy of Finnegans Wake Guide Boo with FW interlaced as some pair of Hebrew letters on the cover - hologrammic - refracts light to get different letters.

Here's a pic of from my dream journal so you can see the form of the interlocking letters on the cover (note that it was the same morning that I had the dream about the Master who wanted to play a game of "pool" for "2 or 3 bucks." See the pun? In the next dream I was swimming in a "pool."

257

The images at the bottom are very rough representations. In the dream, they were like holographs that would change to different interlocking letters depending on the angle of view. The first is an F interlocking with a W and the second is two horizontal letters E. It was a couple years later that I discovered this was Joyce's own private sigla for his central character HCE = Humphrey Chimden Earwicker. Here's a page from the book The Sigla of Finnegans Wake (http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/JoyceColl/JoyceColl-idx?type=turn&entity=JoyceColl.McHughSigla.p0016&id=JoyceColl.McHughSigla&isize=M&pview=hide) where the symbols are defined:

258
The other main character was ALP (Anna Livia Plurabilities) = Aleph = 111. She was represented by a triangle. Joyce had a lot of Kabbalism in his book ... indeed, he attempted to represent the entire universe in it!

Given that Finnegans Wake invaded my dreams, I felt inclined to see what was on page 528 (http://www.lycaeum.org/mv/Finnegan/viewpage.cgi?page=528&like=Emporer%7CIreland) of Finnegans Wake. Imagine my surprise when I found a reference to Jumbo followed by the words Ding Dong! (Dalet Dalet ==> 44), as well as the concept of knocking and opening a door:
Eusapia! Fais-le, tout-tait! Languishing hysteria? The clou
historique? How is this at all? Is dads the thing in such or are
tits the that? Hear we here her first poseproem of suora unto
suora? Alicious, twinstreams twinestraines, through alluring
glass or alas in jumboland? Ding dong! Where's your pal in
silks alustre? Think of a maiden, Presentacion. Double her,
Annupciacion. Take your first thoughts away from her,
Immacolacion. Knock and it shall appall unto you! Who shone yet
shimmers will be e'er scheining. Cluse her, voil her, hild her hindly.
After liryc and themodius soft aglo iris of the vals. This young
barlady, what, euphemiasly? Is she having an ambidual act
herself in apparition with herself as Consuelas to Sonias may?

Dang! And tether, a loguy O !

Dis and dat and dese and dose ! Your crackling out of your
turn, my Moonster firefly, like always. And 2 R.N. and
Longhorns Connacht, stay off my air! You've grabbed the capital and
you've had the lion's shire since 1542 but there's all the difference
in Ireland between your borderation, my chatty cove, and me. The
leinstrel boy to the wall is gone and there's moreen astoreen for
Monn and Conn. With the tyke's named moke. Doggymens'
nimmer win! You last led the first when we last but we'll first
trump your last with a lasting. Jump the railchairs or take them,
as you please, but and, sir, my queskins first, foxyjack! Ye've as
much skullabogue cheek on you now as would boil a caldron of kalebrose.


Much of the symbolism is very meaningful to me personally, but I can't explain it all right now.

The point of all this is to show that Poliphori seems a lot like a medieval version of Joyce, and that both are "dream books" and contain images closely linked to the Dumbo Dream. Also, given your interest in tracing these things out, I thought it important for you to know about Finnegans Wake.

Oh, and here is one persons take on the whole structure of Finnegans Wake. Note the siglas on top for HCE, ALP, etc. And the "four cycles" are intriguing, of course!

259



Great chatting!

Richard

Truly amazing stuff, Richard. It makes me look at my college days studying literature in a whole new light. I was never a big follower of the Modernists. I was more interested in the Elizabethans and 19th c. British and American literature. However, I have read the Dead and Araby out of Joyce's more accessible Dubliners.

I've considered reading Finnegan's Wake and Ulysses but haven't done so yet. One of my old lit professors would always say there were three greats: Homer, Big Bill (aka Shakespeare), and Joyce.

Thanks for sharing. I've been learning a lot from this forum.

Len

Richard Amiel McGough
01-07-2012, 10:30 AM
Truly amazing stuff, Richard. It makes me look at my college days studying literature in a whole new light. I was never a big follower of the Modernists. I was more interested in the Elizabethans and 19th c. British and American literature. However, I have read the Dead and Araby out of Joyce's more accessible Dubliners.

I've considered reading Finnegan's Wake and Ulysses but haven't done so yet. One of my old lit professors would always say there were three greats: Homer, Big Bill (aka Shakespeare), and Joyce.

Thanks for sharing. I've been learning a lot from this forum.

Len
Hey there Len,

I tried to read Ulysses like a novel many times. Each time it makes more "sense" and I get further into it before I hit the "Leviticus moment" when it seems like the most tedious book ever written. And Finnegans Wake is a thousand times more challenging. It's really only good for an in depth study or a mystic looking for synchronistic insight like what we get with the I Ching.

I'm glad you are learning a lot here. I hope this will continue in the New Year - the Year of Lamed (12 = Learning)!

And speaking of Lamed - the 12th letter - can be interpreted as L (to) MD (44), so it seems to contain a connection with the 12 x 44 dream numbers. I feel like there is something significant here that I can't quite see yet.

Great chatting!

Richard