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Rose
11-23-2011, 09:08 PM
A couple videos giving a good overview of the development of morality.


http://youtu.be/T7xt5LtgsxQ


http://youtu.be/hSS-88ShJfo

jce
11-29-2011, 07:32 PM
So Rose... I listened to some of the audio presentation and the fallacious premise asserted by the narrator that man is capable of governing himself by his own standard of morality.

To even contemplate morality, one cannot escape the adoption of a standard, and if a standard, then a standard giver, and if a standard giver, then an accountability to that standard. And what should be done to those who violate the standard? Punishment? If so, to what degree? Commensurate with the crime? If so, what equation should be employed to exact a balance? Worse yet, what if standards are not uniformly agreed upon by all participants? Will they break up into groups of those who align with one another, thereby establishing varying standards of morality among many constituent groups? We're only scratching the surface here, but the long dubious history of man's attempt to govern the world with his personal version of morality is replete with his failed efforts. And this idea about the role education plays in the eradication of immoral behavior? Read your history books to see how that one plays out, obviously the narrator didn't or perhaps he didn't think it was applicable to his theory.

To sum it up in a nutshell... Without God, might will establish right... and you can take that to the bank.

Of course, someone in this forum will bring God to trial and attempt to convict Him of violating His own standards, the only problem with this idea, is that man must bring God into man's venue. How do you accomplish that menial task? Do you send Him a summons in the mail, or serve it to Him in person?

You can also toss this idea that man is basically "good" into the heap of history's rubble. It won't stick and the evidence is overwhelmingly obvious. Do we not possess enough common sense to consider the possibility that just maybe, one of God's planned purposes for man, could be to simply demonstrate, in a convincing manner, that man, apart from God is predestined to failure?

Perhaps you disagree, and rather than follow my banking advice, you are ready to invest your capital in one more lucrative "New Age" man-made scheme, if so, please enlighten me with something new under the sun. But Rose... not with more of this dribble about the virtues of the natural man. He is corrupt and in desperate need of redemption and the evidence is in sufficient supply as witnessed by the innumerable acts of violence committed by both the religious and non-religious.

Your husbands friend,

John

Rose
11-29-2011, 10:13 PM
So Rose... I listened to some of the audio presentation and the fallacious premise asserted by the narrator that man is capable of governing himself by his own standard of morality.

To even contemplate morality, one cannot escape the adoption of a standard, and if a standard, then a standard giver, and if a standard giver, then an accountability to that standard. And what should be done to those who violate the standard? Punishment? If so, to what degree? Commensurate with the crime? If so, what equation should be employed to exact a balance? Worse yet, what if standards are not uniformly agreed upon by all participants? Will they break up into groups of those who align with one another, thereby establishing varying standards of morality among many constituent groups? We're only scratching the surface here, but the long dubious history of man's attempt to govern the world with his personal version of morality is replete with his failed efforts. And this idea about the role education plays in the eradication of immoral behavior? Read your history books to see how that one plays out, obviously the narrator didn't or perhaps he didn't think it was applicable to his theory.

To sum it up in a nutshell... Without God, might will establish right... and you can take that to the bank.

Of course, someone in this forum will bring God to trial and attempt to convict Him of violating His own standards, the only problem with this idea, is that man must bring God into man's venue. How do you accomplish that menial task? Do you send Him a summons in the mail, or serve it to Him in person?

You can also toss this idea that man is basically "good" into the heap of history's rubble. It won't stick and the evidence is overwhelmingly obvious. Do we not possess enough common sense to consider the possibility that just maybe, one of God's planned purposes for man, could be to simply demonstrate, in a convincing manner, that man, apart from God is predestined to failure?

Perhaps you disagree, and rather than follow my banking advice, you are ready to invest your capital in one more lucrative "New Age" man-made scheme, if so, please enlighten me with something new under the sun. But Rose... not with more of this dribble about the virtues of the natural man. He is corrupt and in desperate need of redemption and the evidence is in sufficient supply as witnessed by the innumerable acts of violence committed by both the religious and non-religious.

Your husbands friend,

John

Hi John

So glad you took the time to share your views...:yo:

Ah, yes, a standard...which we all have innately within us, and what is that standard you might ask? Well, it is the age old adage spoken of by Confucius in the 5th century BC "don't do unto others what you don't want done to yourself", and by Christ in the 1st century "Love your neighbor as yourself". Both of these sayings convey the same innate standard of morality that holds true for every human that has ever lived, without the need of a standard giver. It is true that people who know better, go against their own innate morality to gain power over others, but that does not negate the fact that we are all born with a built in standard to know right from wrong.

Man is a self-aware being, and as such is able to reason that if we like, or dislike something done to us the same will hold true for others, hence comes the idea of treating other as you wish to be treated...even a child can understand that. Adding "God" into the picture only complicates things because it takes peoples innate knowing of right and wrong, and introduces an arbitrary "rule maker", who depending on the culture that has created him imposes degrees of punishment that far exceeds the so called crimes. Take for instance the idea of sin...it's just a made up idea imposed upon people by a made up "God"...no matter how good a life someone lives if they don't accept a certain "God" they will be sent to eternal punishment :eek: It seems like in "God's" eyes everyone is born a failure...how much sense does that make :confused:

All the best,
Rose

jce
11-29-2011, 11:15 PM
You are a gentle spirit Rose and I can't imagine you hating or hurting anyone.

Happy Anniversary!

John

Richard Amiel McGough
12-03-2011, 12:39 AM
Here's a video I just bumped into on this topic, presenting the same idea of "Moral law demands a law given" in very simple terms.


http://youtu.be/riruj9r9na0

Personally, I think it is obvious that morality can not be dependent upon a law giver because that is not the source of our moral intuitions. We all agree that things are good or bad because of the way things are, not because of some arbitrary rule by a rule giver. I have a lot more to say but no time right now.

jce
12-09-2011, 08:57 AM
Here's a video I just bumped into on this topic, presenting the same idea of "Moral law demands a law given" in very simple terms.


http://youtu.be/riruj9r9na0.

Seriously whimsical. Give me Ravi on any topic over this illustration presented in a silly way.

Morality... Where did it originate? Even this is a matter of faith and where one places that faith demonstrates their world view. In my opinion, morality for humans begins with the Creator, otherwise, it's time, plus matter, plus chance... period. Adding law seems to imply a lawgiver, and we can't go there now can we.

John

heb13-13
12-09-2011, 09:45 AM
Hi Everyone,

The greatest revelation and law given to man by the Creator came through Jesus Christ and no other. It is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

"No other law on earth can set one free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

In man's desperate attempt to shake himself free from the law of God, he has created his own law(s) and self-assuredley presents it as more superior to "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus".

All who oppose the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (God's true law) oppose the only wise God and are coming together as ONE.

Reminds me of the old saying, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

This is the only law that has eternal value and that God endorses. All other laws will pass away along with all of man's other ideas to replace the knowledge of God which has been manifested in the person of Jesus Christ.

No matter what you invent or how you try to reframe things in this life you will always have to deal with Jesus Christ. He will always be the irritating "pebble in the shoe".

I constantly hear of people that have rejected the Bible or left Christianity but never hear anything about the great victories and deliverances and answers to prayer that the Spirit of God did in their lives while they were "Christians". I wonder if they just had a head knowledge relationship with the Bible and never a real encounter with the Living God?

Have a great weekend, everyone.

Rick

heb13-13
12-09-2011, 10:33 AM
God's revelation has nothing to do with morality. "Christians" have done a great job at confusing the masses.

Here is an example of confusing false Christianity with "Life in Christ".
http://gospelway.com/christianlife/change_yourself.php

When I was born-again different Christians like the Navigators and other groups thought I was some big "trophy" for God because of what I got saved out of and how excited and bold about the Lord, I was. Everyone wanted me to be on "their team". I never could get into their "mechanical" programs of Bible study and memorization and rules for being a "Christian". And God's plan for my life was different than their plan for me. God wanted to me to decrease so that Jesus could increase. Later on in life I realized that the Spirit of Life in Christ that was in me was actually drawing me away from those things and towards Him, continually. I am glad that I went with His voice otherwise I would have given up on "Christianity" just like so many others. But to know Life in Christ, is to be His forever. You don't walk away from LIFE IN CHRIST. No matter the hardships, the difficulties, the rejections, the lack of understanding or the pain in this life, there is none like Jesus.

Back to man's morality (which cannot give LIFE).

Man's created and defined morals implicitly originate with him.

Man's morals are defined as acceptable behaviour based on the particular social group that they are in.

Jesus did not come to give various and different social groups a standardized moral code in which they should all conform. If you think that is what Jesus Christ is all about, you have missed the mark completely.

Christianity is not a religion that imposes morality. That is a false Christianity. (run fast away from it).

We do not live my rules and regulations, we live by the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

He came to give us LIFE, His life and we are to live by His Life.

And only His Life and no other, can form the divine character of God in us and be expressed through our behaviour.

The mystery of godliness is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Rom 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Col 3:4

When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Grace abounds my friends.

Like Larry Norman said, "Why don't you look into Jesus?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TliWDSLrYb8
Rick

heb13-13
12-09-2011, 11:16 AM
204


If the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed!! (John 8:36)

Rose
12-09-2011, 11:17 AM
Morality... Where did it originate? Even this is a matter of faith and where one places that faith demonstrates their world view. In my opinion, morality for humans begins with the Creator, otherwise, it's time, plus matter, plus chance... period. Adding law seems to imply a lawgiver, and we can't go there now can we.

John

Hi John,

I think the problem with talking about morality is that many people begin with the premise of their being a creator/law giver, and without that creator/law giver there can be no morality. I think what needs to be done, is to start with the premise that there is NO creator/law giver, and see if one can explain morality in strictly humanistic terms.

I myself find it is very easy and simple to explain the existence of morality without the existence of a creator/law giver by examining what it means to be a self-aware creature. The more one understands their own self-consciousness, the more empathy one has for others, because they realize that how they want to be treated is the same as others want to be treated. Now, that is not saying that people always follow their conscience, because they don't, but that falls into the category of the human free-will.

All the best,
Rose

heb13-13
12-09-2011, 12:52 PM
Hi John,

I think the problem with talking about morality is that many people begin with the premise of their being a creator/law giver, and without that creator/law giver there can be no morality. I think what needs to be done, is to start with the premise that there is NO creator/law giver, and see if one can explain morality in strictly humanistic terms.

I myself find it is very easy and simple to explain the existence of morality without the existence of a creator/law giver by examining what it means to be a self-aware creature. The more one understands their own self-consciousness, the more empathy one has for others, because they realize that how they want to be treated is the same as others want to be treated. Now, that is not saying that people always follow their conscience, because they don't, but that falls into the category of the human free-will.

All the best,
Rose

Morality is what any specific social group deems is good and right for their social group. Every social group that ever existed "created" a morality for themselves apart from any other social group. So for instance, the natives in Papua New Guinea believe it is a crime punishable by death if you leave your tribe. However, if you have more than one wife it is a very good thing.

The "tribe" in America thinks it is very good if you leave your "tribe" and strike out on your own and "make your mark" and they may or may not think an extra wife is good or not. Some are having a problem with just one of them. :bawl: The tribe in America doesn't seem to like to stay either with their tribe or their wives. :sEm_oops:


Come on, I know ya all got a sense of humor.

Man has proven over and over that morals defined for one social group are not the same as may be defined for another. Good luck in getting them all to be "ONE".

On the other hand, I have met Believers in Jesus Christ from all over the world (many kindreds, and nations and races) that have unity of spirit and love for all, chiefly because of God's Spirit (not morality or rules and regulations).

Shalom, Shalom,
Rick

Rose
12-09-2011, 02:26 PM
Morality is what any specific social group deems is good and right for their social group. Every social group that ever existed "created" a morality for themselves apart from any other social group. So for instance, the natives in Papua New Guinea believe it is a crime punishable by death if you leave your tribe. However, if you have more than one wife it is a very good thing.

The "tribe" in America thinks it is very good if you leave your "tribe" and strike out on your own and "make your mark" and they may or may not think an extra wife is good or not. Some are having a problem with just one of them. :bawl: The tribe in America doesn't seem to like to stay either with their tribe or their wives. :sEm_oops:


Come on, I know ya all got a sense of humor.

Man has proven over and over that morals defined for one social group are not the same as may be defined for another. Good luck in getting them all to be "ONE".

On the other hand, I have met Believers in Jesus Christ from all over the world (many kindreds, and nations and races) that have unity of spirit and love for all, chiefly because of God's Spirit (not morality or rules and regulations).

Shalom, Shalom,
Rick

Hi Rick,

What it seems like your speaking of is not true morality (treat others as you want to be treated), but rather laws and rules made up by different cultures and their gods. Take for instance the example you gave regarding the natives in Papua New Guinea, you can be sure if one of the tribal leaders wanted to leave the tribe and start a new one he would implement a new rule (or say that his god told him) that would say he could. Another good example of laws versus morality is what we find in the Old Testament...like keeping the Sabbath holy, which would be considered a law and not a moral truth.

To be a moral truth it must apply to every human on the planet equally, because we all share the same sense of right and wrong based on how we want to be treated, not just arbitrary rules made up by people, or gods in control.

It's one thing to share the same unity of spirit because you share the same faith, but the point I am trying to make is that the whole human race shares the same sense of morality based on our self-awareness of how we want to be treated.

All the best,
Rose

jce
12-09-2011, 02:26 PM
Hi John,

I think the problem with talking about morality is that many people begin with the premise of their being a creator/law giver, and without that creator/law giver there can be no morality. I think what needs to be done, is to start with the premise that there is NO creator/law giver, and see if one can explain morality in strictly humanistic terms.

I myself find it is very easy and simple to explain the existence of morality without the existence of a creator/law giver by examining what it means to be a self-aware creature. The more one understands their own self-consciousness, the more empathy one has for others, because they realize that how they want to be treated is the same as others want to be treated. Now, that is not saying that people always follow their conscience, because they don't, but that falls into the category of the human free-will.

All the best,
Rose

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". Either this statement is true... or it is false. No middle ground here folks.

If false, then no explanations and no answers. Who will explain? Who will answer? Without the Creator you have "Ex nihilo". No rules for a debate, no judge to enforce the rules. Rules must be "made up" and enforced by someone. But who? No Creator... No Answers. It is that simple given the context below.

In the Garden a law was given... and disobeyed with consequences. Before Cain slew Abel, he was advised that if he did well, he would be accepted. By being held accountable there was an implied instruction. Once again, a standard was given, a standard was broken, a price was paid.

How can anyone claim to possess a morality superior to that of another. Can Confucious or Jesus? How about you or me? If so, by what standard? Conscience alone? Is radical Islam devoid of conscience? What about Stalin's version of Communism? He had many followers just as Allah does.

Fact is, we are all living by someone else's morality, whether right or wrong, and it is as the scriptures so accurately once stated "Every man did that which was right in his own eyes". In our world today, the inescapable conclusion is... Might will Rule whether Right or Wrong. And to whom will anyone complain, if that "Right" proves "Wrong"?

How would you react, if your homeland was conquered by another nation, establishing a contrary moral standard, a standard which defines you as "an infidel. Now, under the new standard, all that you have earned will be confiscated and you will be coerced to convert under threat of torture or death. Will you submit? Will you complain? Will you demand justice? If so, to Whom will you state your case? Humanity? It is that same humanity that convicts you.

Rose, you seem like a very pleasant soul, have you always been that way? If not... where, when and what generated the transition to your revised standard of morality? Please don't feel compelled to answer that question.

I really do wish you God's best.

John

heb13-13
12-09-2011, 04:31 PM
Hi Rick,

What it seems like your speaking of is not true morality (treat others as you want to be treated), but rather laws and rules made up by different cultures and their gods. Take for instance the example you gave regarding the natives in Papua New Guinea, you can be sure if one of the tribal leaders wanted to leave the tribe and start a new one he would implement a new rule (or say that his god told him) that would say he could. Another good example of laws versus morality is what we find in the Old Testament...like keeping the Sabbath holy, which would be considered a law and not a moral truth.

Actually, their "laws" came from their morality. Just like your morality will create laws like "treat others as you want to be treated". That is in effect a law to those who want people to be nice to them but see no reason to be nice to others.

I have a question for you because it seems that the word "treated" can be opened to interpretations and rationalizing. Is there something behind that word "treated" that we should all know about? Why don't you say love? For instance, I don't know how you like to be treated. But let's not talk about you, let's talk about someone in a position of power and influence over people. What if he has the same philosophy as you and he has power over a particular population of people. Couldn't he say, "Those poor, deprived, people. If I was in their shoes I would want to be TREATED humanely and put out of my misery". Well, that's very situational, don't you think? And though he says that is the way he would like to be TREATED, is it really true. I think not. What about those that are of retirement age and to some, no longer useful citizens anymore? They may be useful and loved by their grandchildren but not others. You see Rose, there are people on earth that really believe that once you are no longer a useful, productive part of society that you should be exterminated. And they say that is how they want to be treated. Sorry, but I don't want them to treat me the way they want to be treated.

So, it seems to me that it won't work. That is, "treat others as you want to be treated", because the other half of the equation is missing. The half that involves God.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and, and, and, and, your neighor as yourself.

You see, we need God's viewpoint of what really loving our neighbor as ourselves is all about. God's view of loving our neighbor as ourselves is so much higher than our innate "morality" as you like to refer to it. And his view applies universally.


To be a moral truth it must apply to every human on the planet equally, because we all share the same sense of right and wrong based on how we want to be treated, not just arbitrary rules made up by people, or gods in control.

I do agree if it cannot be applied universally then it won't work. This will come as a big shock to you I am sure, but not every human being shares the same sense of right and wrong based on how they want to be treated.


It's one thing to share the same unity of spirit because you share the same faith, but the point I am trying to make is that the whole human race shares the same sense of morality based on our self-awareness of how we want to be treated.

It sounds good and it is a nice thought, but the whole human race does not share the same sense of morality. If we need something that works across all boundaries and races and peoples then it won't be found inside man and the history of man proves this.

That is why we need the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. It will show man how to love one another as He loved us.

Man's morality cannot be depended on to be never changing and always there for us.


All the best,
Rose

Thanks for all of your ideas but I don't think they can really work as I have never seen it, heard it or read about it.

What do you do with those that have animosity towards your ideas? How do you treat them? Probably very nice, knowing you. A lot of people want to be treated nice but won't treat others nice so how do you change their heart? How do you change their basic character and personality from within without forcing them to "act nice" or legislating your morality?

That is the age old question. How do you change the heart of man?

Grace and peace to you,
Rick

Charisma
12-09-2011, 04:54 PM
Hello to Rose and all readers,


true morality (treat others as you want to be treated), Where did Jesus say this? (Sorry, I can't find it, but I think it's in one of the gospels.)

Also, Jesus carried it right on to the cross, when He said, 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do'.

Lastly, Paul translated it for believers: Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Paul's use of this particular Greek word for 'affection' is to do with mood and response to outside influences, and, is different from other Greek words he chose in other epistles, which have been translated 'affection' in the KJV.


Unless you embrace the cross on the terms which Paul embraced it, neither you (nor I, nor anyone) will be able to treat others they way we would like to be treated.

You see, it has to be reversible. It's not just about you doing nice things so that others do nice things to you. It's about doing nice things when people do terrible things to you.

It's only then, that your 'morality' has been properly tested and found truly embedded in your heart and mind.
That's when you (anyone) has become truly 'moral' in the terms you have chosen.

I would contend that only Jesus Christ accomplished morality of this calibre and more, because truly, He actually did not fail in the attempt.

Furthermore, I would contend that unless we accept the working of the cross of Christ in our lives as a spiritual truth which makes a spiritual impact, we are incapable of accomplishing the morality Christ taught, and that Christ demonstrated when He prayed: 'Father forgive them, they know not what they do'.

Rose
12-09-2011, 06:08 PM
"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". Either this statement is true... or it is false. No middle ground here folks.

If false, then no explanations and no answers. Who will explain? Who will answer? Without the Creator you have "Ex nihilo". No rules for a debate, no judge to enforce the rules. Rules must be "made up" and enforced by someone. But who? No Creator... No Answers. It is that simple given the context below.

In the Garden a law was given... and disobeyed with consequences. Before Cain slew Abel, he was advised that if he did well, he would be accepted. By being held accountable there was an implied instruction. Once again, a standard was given, a standard was broken, a price was paid.

How can anyone claim to possess a morality superior to that of another. Can Confucious or Jesus? How about you or me? If so, by what standard? Conscience alone? Is radical Islam devoid of conscience? What about Stalin's version of Communism? He had many followers just as Allah does.

Fact is, we are all living by someone else's morality, whether right or wrong, and it is as the scriptures so accurately once stated "Every man did that which was right in his own eyes". In our world today, the inescapable conclusion is... Might will Rule whether Right or Wrong. And to whom will anyone complain, if that "Right" proves "Wrong"?

How would you react, if your homeland was conquered by another nation, establishing a contrary moral standard, a standard which defines you as "an infidel. Now, under the new standard, all that you have earned will be confiscated and you will be coerced to convert under threat of torture or death. Will you submit? Will you complain? Will you demand justice? If so, to Whom will you state your case? Humanity? It is that same humanity that convicts you.

Hi John,

The intention of my last post was to present the idea of people stepping away from the concept of morality being given by a law-giver and try to imagine morality arising from self-awareness. In this manner no one is living by someone else's morality, if everyone lives by the innate morality that we all share...and that is treating others as you want to be treated. It is only when those who have the power impose on others things that they would not want done to themselves and call it morality that problems arise.

I don't see how the example you gave of a conquering nation establishing a contrary moral standard applies, because true morality isn't something that can be just made up to fit an individuals ideas. True morality applies to every human equally when it is judged by the standard of treating others as you want to be treated.


Rose, you seem like a very pleasant soul, have you always been that way? If not... where, when and what generated the transition to your revised standard of morality? Please don't feel compelled to answer that question.

I really do wish you God's best.

John

My standard for morality hasn't changed. Before I became a Christian I held the same view of treating others as I wanted to be treated as I do now. After I became I Christian I blindly excepted the fact that our morality was imbued by God, now I can see that morality is something that every self-aware person has innately within them. All that needs to be realized is that every human has the same desire to be treated well, and if I know I wish to be treated well...I automatically know that you wish to be treated well.

All the best,
Rose

heb13-13
12-09-2011, 07:11 PM
Hi Rick,

It's one thing to share the same unity of spirit because you share the same faith, but the point I am trying to make is that the whole human race shares the same sense of morality based on our self-awareness of how we want to be treated.

All the best,
Rose

Hi Rose,

I also meant to respond to your last sentence and and missed it: That it's not just the same faith that we share but the same life. And this is very important. Through our same faith we share and experience the One Lord. The life of Christ is the life that we share which lifts us up above the best morality that man can achieve on his own and conforms one to the image of Christ.

Have a great weekend,
Rick

Rose
12-09-2011, 07:29 PM
Actually, their "laws" came from their morality. Just like your morality will create laws like "treat others as you want to be treated". That is in effect a law to those who want people to be nice to them but see no reason to be nice to others.

I have a question for you because it seems that the word "treated" can be opened to interpretations and rationalizing. Is there something behind that word "treated" that we should all know about? Why don't you say love? For instance, I don't know how you like to be treated. But let's not talk about you, let's talk about someone in a position of power and influence over people. What if he has the same philosophy as you and he has power over a particular population of people. Couldn't he say, "Those poor, deprived, people. If I was in their shoes I would want to be TREATED humanely and put out of my misery". Well, that's very situational, don't you think? And though he says that is the way he would like to be TREATED, is it really true. I think not. What about those that are of retirement age and to some, no longer useful citizens anymore? They may be useful and loved by their grandchildren but not others. You see Rose, there are people on earth that really believe that once you are no longer a useful, productive part of society that you should be exterminated. And they say that is how they want to be treated. Sorry, but I don't want them to treat me the way they want to be treated.

So, it seems to me that it won't work. That is, "treat others as you want to be treated", because the other half of the equation is missing. The half that involves God.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and, and, and, and, your neighor as yourself.

You see, we need God's viewpoint of what really loving our neighbor as ourselves is all about. God's view of loving our neighbor as ourselves is so much higher than our innate "morality" as you like to refer to it. And his view applies universally.



I do agree if it cannot be applied universally then it won't work. This will come as a big shock to you I am sure, but not every human being shares the same sense of right and wrong based on how they want to be treated.



It sounds good and it is a nice thought, but the whole human race does not share the same sense of morality. If we need something that works across all boundaries and races and peoples then it won't be found inside man and the history of man proves this.

That is why we need the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. It will show man how to love one another as He loved us.

Man's morality cannot be depended on to be never changing and always there for us.

Hi Rick, :yo:

The reason I use the word "treated" is because it has a much broader application than the word "love". All humans share the same sense of being treated well, and with equality. The example you used "Those poor, deprived, people. If I was in their shoes I would want to be TREATED humanely and put out of my misery" does not seem to apply, because being TREATED humanely DOES NOT mean putting someone out of their misery...it means helping the poor deprived people as you would want to be helped instead of mistreating them.

I don't see why I need "God" to help me love my neighbor? I perfectly well know that my neighbor is going to want to be treated well just like I do. He is not going to want me stealing from him, or yelling at him, or throwing garbage on his property ect. I don't need "God" to show me things that I innately know by relating my feelings of well-being to others, and besides that I have enormous problems with much of what's presented as God's morality in the Bible.

The very problem you mentioned about man's morality not being dependable because it changes, is exactly the problem I have with God's morality given us in the Bible...it runs the whole gamete from the slaughter of pagan women and children with the rape of their virgins, to turning the other cheek. :dizzy:


Thanks for all of your ideas but I don't think they can really work as I have never seen it, heard it or read about it.

What do you do with those that have animosity towards your ideas? How do you treat them? Probably very nice, knowing you. A lot of people want to be treated nice but won't treat others nice so how do you change their heart? How do you change their basic character and personality from within without forcing them to "act nice" or legislating your morality?

That is the age old question. How do you change the heart of man?

Grace and peace to you,
Rick

That is indeed an age old question...I guess I'm in good company because it doesn't seem like the God of the Bible has had any luck in that area either. The heart of man will change, when the consciousness level of humanity rises to the point where they realize we are all part of one interconnected universal body.

All the best to you my friend,
Rose

Richard Amiel McGough
12-09-2011, 07:42 PM
Hi Everyone,

The greatest revelation and law given to man by the Creator came through Jesus Christ and no other. It is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

"No other law on earth can set one free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Hey there Rick,

I'm really glad you have entered this discussion. I think Christianity has introduced a huge amount of confusion so that few people can think clearly about true morality.

First, I think it is very important to be careful when quoting Scripture. Paul did not write what you have "quoted" from Romans 8:2. Here is what he actually wrote:
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Why did you change that verse? Now I will admit that Paul would probably agree with what you wrote, but then again, maybe not, since he also wrote this in the same book:
Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12* For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
I was always disturbed by this passage when I was a Christian because it appears to directly contradict Paul's other teachings about the Gentiles needing Christ for salvation. But I don't think we need to hash out how it is not "really" contradictory since we have bigger fish to fry. I just present it now to show that you interpretation is just that, an interpretation, and that it would require a lot of "interpretation" to justify the statements that you seem to have presented as self-evident.



In man's desperate attempt to shake himself free from the law of God, he has created his own law(s) and self-assuredley presents it as more superior to "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus".

All who oppose the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (God's true law) oppose the only wise God and are coming together as ONE.

I don't think that is correct at all. The truth is very simple and plain. I'm not trying to "shake myself free from the Law of God." On the contrary, I am speaking the truth as plainly as possible. And this is it: My moral intuitions do not and never have been based in any "law of God." On the contrary, my moral intuitions are based on the Golden Rule. I know what is right and wrong because I know what I want and do not want done to me. It is my ability to see myself as ONE with others that informs me of TRUE MORALITY. This is the universal souce of true morality.

Again, I don not "oppose" the true Law of God in any way at all. On the contrary, I fully support the Law of God as summed up bu the Apostle Paul. (As an aside, it has always been easy to remember Paul's statement because love = 13 and law = 10 commandments):
Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
And this same teaching is given by Christ and the Apostle John:
Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
This is the univeral moral law, expressed by many great teachers before and after Christ. Confucious taught it hundreds of years before Christ. It is the Golden Rule universally recognized and taught by all enlightened teachers of all religions:

205

Who can say a word against the Royal Law of Universal Love?



Reminds me of the old saying, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

That sounds like a pretty cynical statement. Am I preaching anything but the Law of Love?



This is the only law that has eternal value and that God endorses. All other laws will pass away along with all of man's other ideas to replace the knowledge of God which has been manifested in the person of Jesus Christ.

And what is the precise content of the one and only law that "God endorses?"



No matter what you invent or how you try to reframe things in this life you will always have to deal with Jesus Christ. He will always be the irritating "pebble in the shoe".

So there was no moral law before Christ came to earth?



I constantly hear of people that have rejected the Bible or left Christianity but never hear anything about the great victories and deliverances and answers to prayer that the Spirit of God did in their lives while they were "Christians". I wonder if they just had a head knowledge relationship with the Bible and never a real encounter with the Living God?

That's not true at all. I've shared plenty of things through the years that I thought were "great victories and deliverances and answers to prayer that the Spirit of God did" in my life when I was a Christian. Just scroll though my old blog (http://www.biblewheel.com/Blog/Blog.asp), which I keep online as a testimony to what I used to believe. And I plan on writing up the things that happened to me that helped convince me of the truth of Christianity. I am absolutely dedicated to speaking truth about why I believe what I believe. I don't undersatnd why you can't see (or admit) this fact.

All the best,

Richard

Rose
12-09-2011, 07:51 PM
Hello to Rose and all readers,

Where did Jesus say this? (Sorry, I can't find it, but I think it's in one of the gospels.)

Also, Jesus carried it right on to the cross, when He said, 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do'.

Hi Charisma, :yo:

So glad you joined the conversation...:D

The verse you are thinking of is found in a number of places, one of them is:
Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.




Lastly, Paul translated it for believers: Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Paul's use of this particular Greek word for 'affection' is to do with mood and response to outside influences, and, is different from other Greek words he chose in other epistles, which have been translated 'affection' in the KJV.


Unless you embrace the cross on the terms which Paul embraced it, neither you (nor I, nor anyone) will be able to treat others they way we would like to be treated.

You see, it has to be reversible. It's not just about you doing nice things so that others do nice things to you. It's about doing nice things when people do terrible things to you.

It's only then, that your 'morality' has been properly tested and found truly embedded in your heart and mind.
That's when you (anyone) has become truly 'moral' in the terms you have chosen.

I would contend that only Jesus Christ accomplished morality of this calibre and more, because truly, He actually did not fail in the attempt.

Furthermore, I would contend that unless we accept the working of the cross of Christ in our lives as a spiritual truth which makes a spiritual impact, we are incapable of accomplishing the morality Christ taught, and that Christ demonstrated when He prayed: 'Father forgive them, they know not what they do'.

It is totally within anyone's power to treat others the way they wish to be treated. Does a mother need a teacher to treat her child with love? No, of course she doesn't and the same holds true for anyone else, we all have control over our actions if that is what we choose to do.

All the best,
Rose

Richard Amiel McGough
12-09-2011, 08:00 PM
Hi Rose,

I also meant to respond to your last sentence and and missed it: That it's not just the same faith that we share but the same life. And this is very important. Through our same faith we share and experience the One Lord. The life of Christ is the life that we share which lifts us up above the best morality that man can achieve on his own and conforms one to the image of Christ.

Have a great weekend,
Rick
Hey there Rick,

I think the foundation of all immorality is the assertion that some are "in" and some are "out" - that there are some who don't share in the life of God. Just look at how this has manifested in the history of the Church. That's why the Bible teaches Christians to love everyone. But this causes a huge incoherence within the religion because most Christians are also taught that God does not love everyone, but has designed reality so that millions if not billions of souls will suffer eternal conscious torment in hell. I would never do that to any person no matter how much harm they did in their brief lives here on earth. But God has chosen to do that, and it is impossible to assert that God "loves" a soul that he chose to send to hell.

It fascinates me to see the attempts by Chrstian apologists to justify the doctrine of hell. Consider what the Bible Answer man (Hanky Panky) says about this:
Finally, common sense regarding justice dictates that there must be a hell. Without hell, the wrongs of Hitler’s Holocaust would never be righted. Justice would be impugned if, after slaughtering six million Jews, Hitler merely died in the arms of his mistress with no eternal consequences. The ancients knew better than to think such a thing. David knew that it might seem for a time as though the wicked prosper despite their evil deeds, but in the end justice will be served. We may wish to think that no one will go to hell, but common sense regarding justice precludes that possibility.
It is the same "common sense" that says it would be equally "unjust" if Hitler were allowed into heaven by merely saying "Please forgive me Jesus." How would that satisfy "justice?" I've always seen this as a fundamental problem with the Gospel, because people are declared "righteous" when they are not anything of the kind. Therefore, the Gospel destroys the meaning of the word "righteous" and this has led to an evisceration of Christian morality. Why do you think that almost all Christians are totally confused about the meaning of "righteousness?" Why is there a constant swing between legalism and antinomianism? It is because the Gospel denies the fundamental meaning of the word "righteous."

BTW - I'm having an absolutely wonderful weekend here at the Cartagraphie Psychedica Conference in Oakland California.

Great chatting!

Richard


Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
12-09-2011, 08:08 PM
Morality is what any specific social group deems is good and right for their social group. Every social group that ever existed "created" a morality for themselves apart from any other social group. So for instance, the natives in Papua New Guinea believe it is a crime punishable by death if you leave your tribe. However, if you have more than one wife it is a very good thing.

I think you are confusing "social mores" with "true morality." True morality has nothing to do with any "rules" invented by various cultures. True Morality is the Golden Rule that treats everyone one the same love. Does no harm to another - that is the sum of the law according to Paul, John, and Jesus.



The "tribe" in America thinks it is very good if you leave your "tribe" and strike out on your own and "make your mark" and they may or may not think an extra wife is good or not. Some are having a problem with just one of them. :bawl: The tribe in America doesn't seem to like to stay either with their tribe or their wives. :sEm_oops:

The "oops" is that you have confused social mores with true morality.



Come on, I know ya all got a sense of humor.

And I love it man! Don't hold back. Speak freely. I will honor you by doing the same.



Man has proven over and over that morals defined for one social group are not the same as may be defined for another. Good luck in getting them all to be "ONE".

Again - we're not talking about "rules" that apply to specific groups to the exclusion of other groups. We're talking about the Royal Law of Universal Love. By definition, it applies equally to everyone. If someone fails to live to this standard, they are being immoral.



On the other hand, I have met Believers in Jesus Christ from all over the world (many kindreds, and nations and races) that have unity of spirit and love for all, chiefly because of God's Spirit (not morality or rules and regulations).

I wouldn't cite "Christian unity" as a proof of anything my friend.




Shalom, Shalom,
Rick
And much peace be unto thee!

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
12-09-2011, 08:29 PM
"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". Either this statement is true... or it is false. No middle ground here folks.

Hey there John, :yo:

I don't think you want to go there. The same standard applies to the rest of the passage and as far as I know, there is no person well informed about modern science that would say God created a "firmament" to separate the waters above from the waters below, or that the world was created a mere 6000 years ago. If you want to force a literal interpretation on Genesis there will be only one conclusion - it is false.



If false, then no explanations and no answers. Who will explain? Who will answer? Without the Creator you have "Ex nihilo". No rules for a debate, no judge to enforce the rules. Rules must be "made up" and enforced by someone. But who? No Creator... No Answers. It is that simple given the context below.

Your statement does not follow. Science has given us many answers.

The rules of logic apply to any debate. There is no logical connection between the existence of a personal God and the laws of logic. On the contrary, God would be subject to logic, not the source of it.



In the Garden a law was given... and disobeyed with consequences. Before Cain slew Abel, he was advised that if he did well, he would be accepted. By being held accountable there was an implied instruction. Once again, a standard was given, a standard was broken, a price was paid.

Sure, that's what happened in the story. But that's not how enlightened adults think about morality at all. Our moral intutitions are based on the Golden Rule. That's how people actually think about morality. That's what you are doing when you say that something is wrong. Your intution is based upon the fact that you would not want it done to you if you were that person.

There is a fundamental problem with the "command theory" of morality. We all know things are right or wrong because of the way the affect others, not because a command was given by God.

Furthermore, it would be impossible to say that God is good if God were good by definition, becasue then "good" would have not independent meaning and so would not tell us anything about God. But we all know that "good" has an independent meaning, and that's why we can say that "goodness" is an attribute of God. The concept of good comes before the concept of God.


How can anyone claim to possess a morality superior to that of another. Can Confucious or Jesus? How about you or me? If so, by what standard? Conscience alone? Is radical Islam devoid of conscience? What about Stalin's version of Communism? He had many followers just as Allah does.

There is one "morality" - the Royal Law of Universal Love. that is the law taught by Confucious and Jesus. Anyone who possesses a "morality" inferior to that does not possess truth morality.

The "standard" is the Royal Law of Unversal Love. It applies equally to everyone. It is the only moral law with that quality, therefore we know it is true. And this is confirmed by the fact that it's taught by all enlightened teachers in all religions.



Fact is, we are all living by someone else's morality, whether right or wrong, and it is as the scriptures so accurately once stated "Every man did that which was right in his own eyes". In our world today, the inescapable conclusion is... Might will Rule whether Right or Wrong. And to whom will anyone complain, if that "Right" proves "Wrong"?

And if you have been discussing Christianity on forums with other Christians for very long, you know there is no universally agreed upon moral law in Christianity. There's a constant debate between legalism and antinomianism. Everyone in Christianity has to interpret the Bible for themselves, and there is nothing like any agreement, even on the fundamentals. So each man does only what is right in his own eyes ... even if that means following a leader like the Pope since they had to make that choice too.



How would you react, if your homeland was conquered by another nation, establishing a contrary moral standard, a standard which defines you as "an infidel. Now, under the new standard, all that you have earned will be confiscated and you will be coerced to convert under threat of torture or death. Will you submit? Will you complain? Will you demand justice? If so, to Whom will you state your case? Humanity? It is that same humanity that convicts you.

That would not be a "moral standard." It would be a fundamentally immoral law because it violates the Royal Law of Universal Love.



Rose, you seem like a very pleasant soul, have you always been that way? If not... where, when and what generated the transition to your revised standard of morality? Please don't feel compelled to answer that question.

I really do wish you God's best.

John
In all my conversations with Rose about this topic, one thing has emerged. She brought her innate morality to Christianity, and left with it. Christianity did not make her more moral in any sense at all. On the contrary, it confused her morality by many horrible teachings in the Bible about killing babies and sending people to eternal conscious torment.

I really appreciate the time you are taking to work on this question with us John.


All the very best,

Richard

heb13-13
12-09-2011, 09:01 PM
I think you are confusing "social mores" with "true morality." True morality has nothing to do with any "rules" invented by various cultures. True Morality is the Golden Rule that treats everyone one the same love. Does no harm to another - that is the sum of the law according to Paul, John, and Jesus.


The "oops" is that you have confused social mores with true morality.


And I love it man! Don't hold back. Speak freely. I will honor you by doing the same.


Again - we're not talking about "rules" that apply to specific groups to the exclusion of other groups. We're talking about the Royal Law of Universal Love. By definition, it applies equally to everyone. If someone fails to live to this standard, they are being immoral.


I wouldn't cite "Christian unity" as a proof of anything my friend.


And much peace be unto thee!

Richard

Hi Richard, how's it going?

The reason that Jesus does not legislate that people ascribe to "true morality" without the Spirit of God (being born-again) is because it is very unfair to ask this of them. He already knows that man cannot follow the "golden rule", the "Royal law of love" as James puts it, with their "old wineskins".

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

In addition, here is a very important question. What motivation does unbelieving man have to treat others with the golden rule?


I wouldn't cite "Christian unity" as a proof of anything my friend.

Yes, but at least now I am aware of the "Christianity" that you have experienced. I have run away from that type of "christianity" myself. Who cares about that kind anyway? The important thing is to experience Christ, not one of the many forms of "christianity".

Hope all is well,
Rick

CWH
12-09-2011, 09:50 PM
Hi Charisma, :yo:

So glad you joined the conversation...:D

The verse you are thinking of is found in a number of places, one of them is:
Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.





It is totally within anyone's power to treat others the way they wish to be treated. Does a mother need a teacher to treat her child with love? No, of course she doesn't and the same holds true for anyone else, we all have control over our actions if that is what we choose to do.

All the best,
Rose

The problem is that morals are based on each person's or each society"s beliefs and cultures. To impose some western morals to asians may not be possible e.g. freedom of speech etc.

There is also the problem that what human views of morals may not be necessary right e.g. free sex, drug additions etc. Hippies believe in Universal love and that includes free sex, drugs, free expresions etc. Homosexuals and Lesbians believe it's ok to have same sex. To them this is moral. And to business men and many people as well, it's ok to be greedy. That is why nations need national laws to dictate what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Laws are necessary or the world will be in chaos, do you agree? Whoever violates such laws will be punished. Same goes with Gods laws, which dictates what human should and should not do, and whoever violates God's laws will be punished. However, i do agree that there seems to be a Universal law i.e. the love of your neighbor as yourself which goes together with the love of God with all your heart soul and mind. That brings to mind that there may be a Universal God which everyone regardless of their religions will ultimately worship.

May God Blessings be with everyone of you. :pray:

Rose
12-09-2011, 10:41 PM
The problem is that morals are based on each person's or each society"s beliefs and cultures. To impose some western morals to asians may not be possible e.g. freedom of speech etc.

There is also the problem that what human views of morals may not be necessary right e.g. free sex, drug additions etc. Hippies believe in Universal love and that includes free sex, drugs, free expresions etc. Homosexuals and Lesbians believe it's ok to have same sex. To them this is moral. And to business men and many people as well, it's ok to be greedy. That is why nations need national laws to dictate what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Laws are necessary or the world will be in chaos, do you agree? Whoever violates such laws will be punished. Same goes with Gods laws, which dictates what human should and should not do, and whoever violates God's laws will be punished. However, i do agree that there seems to be a Universal law i.e. the love of your neighbor as yourself which goes together with the love of God with all your heart soul and mind. That brings to mind that there may be a Universal God which everyone regardless of their religions will ultimately worship.

May God Blessings be with everyone of you. :pray:

Hi Cheow,

I think a lot of people get customs and traditions of different societies mixed up with morals. The standard for morality is universal...treat others with the respect you want to be treated with. Everyone wants to be treated well, even if they don't treat other well themselves...that is why we need laws to try and assure people are treated equally.

All the best,
Rose

heb13-13
12-09-2011, 11:39 PM
Hi Cheow,

I think a lot of people get customs and traditions of different societies mixed up with morals. The standard for morality is universal...treat others with the respect you want to be treated with. Everyone wants to be treated well, even if they don't treat other well themselves...that is why we need laws to try and assure people are treated equally.

All the best,
Rose

Actually Rose, you said, "treat others as you want to be treated". Cheow has a point. The way some people like to be treated is not how I want to be treated.

Now, you are saying, treat everyone with respect. You are now defining what "treat" means. Some people's views of respect are a little far off, too. I may treat someone with respect but he may not think it is respectful enough. They may want me to bow before them or kiss their ring in order to show proper respect to them. Now, I just treated this person the way I would want to be treated, but it wasn't good enough for him.

And you are right, that in this world everyone wants to be treated well even though they don't treat others well. So how do you change these people? LAWS? That doesn't change them, it only enforces what YOU want them to behave like but it is not necessarily from the heart. Is that how you would like to be treated? Would you like someone to legislate their morality on you? FORCE YOU TO BEHAVE THE WAY THEY WANT YOU TO?

What is the motivation for people to treat others (Still don't know why you don't use the word LOVE instead of TREAT) the way they want to be treated.

Now, I realize something! You are not asking people to love one another, just asking them to treat each other with respect and that does not require love.

Jesus not only asks us to treat others with respect but to love our neighbor as ourself, and to love our enemies. Those who treat us terribly, with spite and anger and abuse for no reason. This is the true test if the Love of God is in you.

"It may be possible that every follower of Confucius is a Confucian, but every follower of Christ is not a Christian.

Jesus said, "Love your enemies" and Confucius said, "Love your friends and requite your enemies with justice".

208

Great discussion, thanks for bringing it up Rose.
Rick

Richard Amiel McGough
12-10-2011, 12:07 AM
Hi Richard, how's it going?

The reason that Jesus does not legislate that people ascribe to "true morality" without the Spirit of God (being born-again) is because it is very unfair to ask this of them. He already knows that man cannot follow the "golden rule", the "Royal law of love" as James puts it, with their "old wineskins".

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

In addition, here is a very important question. What motivation does unbelieving man have to treat others with the golden rule?

Hey there Rick,

I understand that is your interpretation of the Bible, but it seems to directly contradict common sense and the common experience of all people. Surely you cannot mean to imply that no one but Christians have ever really loved anyone!

Love is a universal human experience found amongst all peoples in all places and all times. So it must be that you are either misapplying that verse or the Bible is wrong. I'll go with the former possibility on this one.

And what motivation would people have to treat others with the Golden Rule? That's easy ... LOVE. I can't believe you would deny that anyone but Christians have love for other people.

And I'm not so sure that I would say that Jesus "legislated" any laws at all. But if he did, then perhaps it was this:
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another
And again, through the Apostle John:
1 John 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. 9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
God is light - all who love abide in that light, and all who abide in love abide in God. It is your doctrines that teach no one has love unless they hold to your doctrines. That is not the doctrine of love taught in the Bible. I know, of course, that you will come back and say that people must have the doctrines of Christianity (Father and Son) or they have no life. But that contradicts the reality we all see about us, that love is a universal fact of humanity. Your doctrines, therefore - if they teach there is no love outside of your doctrines - must be in error.




I wouldn't cite "Christian unity" as a proof of anything my friend.
Yes, but at least now I am aware of the "Christianity" that you have experienced. I have run away from that type of "christianity" myself. Who cares about that kind anyway? The important thing is to experience Christ, not one of the many forms of "christianity".

You are not aware of any such thing, and it is wrong for you to think you can judge the "kind" of Christianity I experienced.

If Christ is defined by love, then the world is filled with Christians who no nothing of the name of Christ.



Hope all is well,
Rick


Thank you my friend. I can honestly say that things are better than they ever have been.

I appreciate your care.

I likewise hope all is well with you and that you will have a blessed time with your family this Christmas.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
12-10-2011, 12:29 AM
The problem is that morals are based on each person's or each society"s beliefs and cultures. To impose some western morals to asians may not be possible e.g. freedom of speech etc.
Hey there Cheow Wee, :yo:

Glad you joined the conversation. :thumb:

The "morals" of which you speak are social rules. They may be good, bad, or indifferent. Therefore, they are not the "morals" about which we are talking. We are talking about what is really right or wrong. Now what people might say is right or wrong. Do you not believe in right and wrong? Or are you a relativist who says there is no right or wrong.

I presume you believe some things are really right and other things are really wrong, no matter what the "moral rules" of some society says. Great! We are in perfect agreement on that point.

So what then determines what is right and what is wrong? Simple! The Golden Rule. Do no harm to others - just like Paul said (Rom 13:10).

This isn't rocket science. It's the most basic moral teaching taught by all enlightened teachers. It is the Royal Law of Universal Love.


There is also the problem that what human views of morals may not be necessary right e.g. free sex, drug additions etc. Hippies believe in Universal love and that includes free sex, drugs, free expresions etc. Homosexuals and Lesbians believe it's ok to have same sex. To them this is moral. And to business men and many people as well, it's ok to be greedy. That is why nations need national laws to dictate what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Laws are necessary or the world will be in chaos, do you agree? Whoever violates such laws will be punished. Same goes with Gods laws, which dictates what human should and should not do, and whoever violates God's laws will be punished.

I can't believe the stuff you say sometimes Cheow!

If "free sex" is harmful to self or others, then it is immoral.

The same goes for all the things you mentioned. That's why, for example, modern societies have come to accept homosexuality. It has been determined by doctors that it is not bad for people. Fifty years ago, the APA listed homosexuality as a psychological disorder. The profesional psychologists no longer believe that. And why not? Becuase they have looked at the evidence and concluded that was the scientific evidence does not support that idea. So they changed their opinions to match the evidence.

Likewise, does greed help or hurt? Probably both I would say. So you can't say it's good or bad. It's more complicated than that (as are many moral issues).

And yes, laws are necessary. So what?

As for "God's Laws" - you mean we should stone people who break the sabbath? Which of "God's laws" are you talking about?



However, i do agree that there seems to be a Universal law i.e. the love of your neighbor as yourself which goes together with the love of God with all your heart soul and mind.That brings to mind that there may be a Universal God which everyone regardless of their religions will ultimately worship.

May God Blessings be with everyone of you. :pray:

I'm glad we agree about the Universal Law of Love. But you made an unjustified leap and added the command to "love God." That is not a unversal law, since most people never heard of the Jewish God you say they are supposed to love.

More careful thinking will get you further, my friend.

All the best,

Richard

heb13-13
12-10-2011, 09:31 AM
http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Rosehttp://www.biblewheel.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=38935#post38935)
The verse you are thinking of is found in a number of places, one of them is:
Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.



You left out the major ingredient that enables people to love thy enemies (who are also neighbors) as thyself. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with all thy heart, soul, mind and strength. Of course, everthing is a choice to christians and non-christians alike.



It is totally within anyone's power to treat others the way they wish to be treated. Does a mother need a teacher to treat her child with love?

Are you saying all mothers love their children and treat them with love? You know that is not true. I do believe that God has put into men and women a strong desire to love their children, but this does not always happen, does it.


No, of course she doesn't and the same holds true for anyone else, we all have control over our actions if that is what we choose to do.

So, obviously, many choose not to love or there are a combination of problems that prevent them from "choosing". What might those problems be?


1) How do you change people's hearts to treat others as they would like to be treated? Or do you just rely on laws to enforce mutual respect (which does not really mean loving from the heart).

2) What motivation do they have to treat others the way they want to be treated? Richard says, "Love". What about those who don't treat others well? Will the motivation be LAW? And let me revise this a bit because most people love their friends and others that are nice to them. But, what motivation do they have to love their enemies?

Wishing you a wonderful day, Rose.
Rick

210


Hey there Rick,

I understand that is your interpretation of the Bible, but it seems to directly contradict common sense and the common experience of all people. Surely you cannot mean to imply that no one but Christians have ever really loved anyone!

No, of course not. I said, "It is possible that every follower of Confucius is a Confucian, but every follower of Christ is not a Christian".

Does your belief include loving your enemies and those that might hurt you gratuitiously? I could be a confucian a lot easier than a Christian because I get to "requite my enemies with justice".


Love is a universal human experience found amongst all peoples in all places and all times. So it must be that you are either misapplying that verse or the Bible is wrong. I'll go with the former possibility on this one.

I understand what you are saying. But love for enemies is not universal and this is where the revelation of God (Jesus Christ), far exceeds the "morality of man".

Luke 6:27
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

Luke 6:28
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

Luke 6:29
And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.

Luke 6:30
Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

Luke 6:31
And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. (Next, Jesus explains what this really means)

Luk 6:32
For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luke 6:33
And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Luke 6:34
And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

Luke 6:35
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Luke 6:36
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.


And what motivation would people have to treat others with the Golden Rule? That's easy ... LOVE. I can't believe you would deny that anyone but Christians have love for other people.

Then why is it not happening in this world? Where is the love? Most people in this world are trying to "get all they can and can all they get", without regard for their "neighbor". Where is the motivation to love? I don't see it on a grand scale so it's not universal and its not working.


And I'm not so sure that I would say that Jesus "legislated" any laws at all. But if he did, then perhaps it was this:
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another



Yes, but my point was that God does not command unbelievers to love their enemies. Our problems first and foremost are sin and separation from God. It is unfair to criticize unbelievers for their lack of love, however it is extremely fair to "criticize" a Believer for not loving. And Richard, I do agree with you that there are many people that are not Christians that seem to love better than so-called Christians, but I don't see them loving their enemies, only those that are nice to them or are not a threat to them. I see this in both camps. People loving those that love them.


Your doctrines, therefore - if they teach there is no love outside of your doctrines - must be in error.

No, on the contrary, there is a lot of love outside of Christianity, but I don't usually see a "morality" that loves their enemies, or people that might be a threat to them. There may be isolated cases but it is not the norm. This kind of love does comes from God and is not innate within man. It is not natural for man to love their enemies. It is natural for man to subdue theirs enemies through force or law. It is natural for man to protect himself from their enemies. But Jesus brought a higher revelation from the Father. And He only requires His children to live by this revelation. He knows that it would be unfair to require unbelievers to live by this revelation. They have nothing to gain from it and would not generally do it anyway. Flesh is flesh and it is against the flesh to love your enemies. One's flesh must be protected and this is how most people think.


Regarding the so-called Christians that are taking advantage of others in the name of Christ, they will meet Matthew 7:23 some day. Jesus spoke this as a warning to hypocrites.


Matt 7:20
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matt 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matt 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

A lot of people think Jesus is unloving because of these very words and is not following His own words about loving your enemies, but that word is applicable only on earth.


You are not aware of any such thing, and it is wrong for you to think you can judge the "kind" of Christianity I experienced.

Richard, I can only go by your own words so correct me if I am wrong in thinking you never experienced genuine Christianity or met genuine Believers who were not hypocrites. I agree that the majority of Christians that the world sees makes it easy for them NOT to believe in Christ. But, that only means that Jesus Christ's words are true about the "narrow way". It proves nothing false about the Bible, but rather buttresses Jesus' words.


If Christ is defined by love,

Correction: Christ is defined by love for His enemies of which all men are, but some are no longer His enemies.



...then the world is filled with Christians who know nothing of the name of Christ.

Amen!!! I agree!! But, does this mean the opposite kind of Christians do not exist just because one has not met them?



Thank you my friend. I can honestly say that things are better than they ever have been.

I appreciate your care.

I likewise hope all is well with you and that you will have a blessed time with your family this Christmas.

Richard

Thanks Richard. All is well with us, too and I hope you and Rose have a wonderful Christmas.

211

Rick

Charisma
12-10-2011, 10:53 AM
Hi all, just a few brief comments.

Rick said:
there are people on earth that really believe that once you are no longer a useful, productive part of society that you should be exterminated. And they say that is how they want to be treated. Sorry, but I don't want them to treat me the way they want to be treated.You said this first, and later in the post added:
This will come as a big shock to you I am sure, but not every human being shares the same sense of right and wrong based on how they want to be treated. This last is what is going through my mind.


To Rose,

What about the people who believe paedophilia is normal?

What about those who love to be humiliated; masochists; sadists; those who love to shed innocent blood?


They all base their 'morality' on how they feel inside - their soulish desires, and the necessity they feel to fulfil the lusts of the flesh and of the mind.

Why shouldn't they?




My impression is that you believe everyone is good, and that (therefore) Jesus was (or must have been) mistaken when He said: Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

And: Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

I am assuming that you don't make the distinction between 'good' and 'evil' in the way Jesus does, because you believe morality should be generalised from the individual (you) to everyone else, on basis that they will want what you want. Put a different way, you base your morality upon the general state of 'humanity', rather than upon the purity and holiness in which God made the first man, and in which God so deeply desires that man should dwell with Him, that He shed His own blood to redeem us from 'sin' (by His definition of it). Right now in these days, you don't have any sympathy with God's logic, because you think yours is better. Which, if you are comfortable with the range of behaviours exhibited and demonstrated by mankind in general, is absolutely fine. Please don't forget - God isn't comfortable with it.

I need you to explain what makes you think that the arbitrary place where everyone draws his or her own line, is a 'standard' at all? Perhaps you don't have 'a standard'?

Here's an example of a person with a double standard. I'll be interested to know where you think the line should have been drawn in his life, and, in the lives of those who affected him, or, whose lives he affected.

In some of the reading I've done about sex offenders, there was a man being quoted, who had been sexually molested as a child. Now, he had no qualms about molesting boy children. One of his victims was visiting overnight to his house while his son (who had been removed by his mother to her sole care some years before), also came for an overnight visit. The father had never molested the son (he said). The boys were about the same age, so he put them in the same bedroom for the night. Perhaps to his own surprise, he was distressed to learn (eventually) that during the night his victim had molested his son. It had not occurred to him that this was danger, nor had he ever been objective with the fact that he didn't really think it was 'right' for his son to be molested.


From what you've said about people treating each other they way they would like to be treated, can you see, yet, that this is a can of worms?

For, you seem to be saying that if we all choose our own 'morality', the society we will end up with is 'an ideal world'?


You also asked this:
Does a mother need a teacher to treat her child with love? The simple fact is, she may do. A lot of how she will treat her child will come from how she herself was brought up, and whether she has, as an adult, been able to identify and rectify (or receive help to rectify) the mistakes or crimes her parents committed, in advance of her child being harmed by her ineptitudes and personal need of mothering/fathering.

Isaiah 49:15 5 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. And they did 'forget' during the seige of Jerusalem, as I'm sure you know, when the found their own need for food to be more pressing than their child's need for life. I'm guessing you might be a bit uncomfortable with this, but at the same time, would fight for the right of a woman to eat her child, because that was the 'morality' welling up from inside her at that particular season. Have I understood you correctly?

[/QUOTE]No, of course she doesn't and the same holds true for anyone else, we all have control over our actions if that is what we choose to do. [/QUOTE]Indeed, that is exactly what the women in Jerusalem chose to do. They chose to 'have control over' their actions, (emotions), and lay aside the natural inhibitions which would prevent them resorting to eating human flesh. As you say, 'we all have control'.

I would draw to your attention that they didn't have control of their hunger, at that precise moment. Were they 'wrong' to obey their feelings?


Please reply to the questions in this post.

Rose
12-10-2011, 11:56 AM
Hi all, just a few brief comments.


To Rose,

What about the people who believe paedophilia is normal?

What about those who love to be humiliated; masochists; sadists; those who love to shed innocent blood?


They all base their 'morality' on how they feel inside - their soulish desires, and the necessity they feel to fulfil the lusts of the flesh and of the mind.

Why shouldn't they?
Hi Charisma, :yo:

I'm surprised I have to explain this to you. When I speak of treating others as one wants to be treated, I am speaking of normal human beings not psychopaths and pedophiles, and I am quite sure the pedophile would not have wanted to be raped as a child (maybe that's what caused his disorder). There is a standard that all normal people hold when they think of how they want to be treated; with respect, and equality.





My impression is that you believe everyone is good, and that (therefore) Jesus was (or must have been) mistaken when He said: Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

And: Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

I am assuming that you don't make the distinction between 'good' and 'evil' in the way Jesus does, because you believe morality should be generalised from the individual (you) to everyone else, on basis that they will want what you want. Put a different way, you base your morality upon the general state of 'humanity', rather than upon the purity and holiness in which God made the first man, and in which God so deeply desires that man should dwell with Him, that He shed His own blood to redeem us from 'sin' (by His definition of it). Right now in these days, you don't have any sympathy with God's logic, because you think yours is better. Which, if you are comfortable with the range of behaviours exhibited and demonstrated by mankind in general, is absolutely fine. Please don't forget - God isn't comfortable with it.

NO, I do not think everyone is good! People do horrible things to each other all the time. My point is the standard for morality is something that is innate within us all, we do not need a law-giver to give it to us. People choose to go against their innate sense of morality for a variety of reasons; some things like mental illness is beyond their control, but many bad things people do to others they most definitely don't want done to themselves.


I need you to explain what makes you think that the arbitrary place where everyone draws his or her own line, is a 'standard' at all? Perhaps you don't have 'a standard'?

Here's an example of a person with a double standard. I'll be interested to know where you think the line should have been drawn in his life, and, in the lives of those who affected him, or, whose lives he affected.

In some of the reading I've done about sex offenders, there was a man being quoted, who had been sexually molested as a child. Now, he had no qualms about molesting boy children. One of his victims was visiting overnight to his house while his son (who had been removed by his mother to her sole care some years before), also came for an overnight visit. The father had never molested the son (he said). The boys were about the same age, so he put them in the same bedroom for the night. Perhaps to his own surprise, he was distressed to learn (eventually) that during the night his victim had molested his son. It had not occurred to him that this was danger, nor had he ever been objective with the fact that he didn't really think it was 'right' for his son to be molested.


From what you've said about people treating each other they way they would like to be treated, can you see, yet, that this is a can of worms?

For, you seem to be saying that if we all choose our own 'morality', the society we will end up with is 'an ideal world'?


You also asked this: The simple fact is, she may do. A lot of how she will treat her child will come from how she herself was brought up, and whether she has, as an adult, been able to identify and rectify (or receive help to rectify) the mistakes or crimes her parents committed, in advance of her child being harmed by her ineptitudes and personal need of mothering/fathering.

Isaiah 49:15 5 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. And they did 'forget' during the seige of Jerusalem, as I'm sure you know, when the found their own need for food to be more pressing than their child's need for life. I'm guessing you might be a bit uncomfortable with this, but at the same time, would fight for the right of a woman to eat her child, because that was the 'morality' welling up from inside her at that particular season. Have I understood you correctly?

Your example in no way invalidates my premise. Why would you think that a person who had been molested as a child would have a normal sense of how people treat each other? One should never set a standard based on abnormal behavior...this also applies to the example of the mother eating her own child...abnormal circumstances promote abnormal behavior. I am surprised that you equate morality with abnormal behavior.


Indeed, that is exactly what the women in Jerusalem chose to do. They chose to 'have control over' their actions, (emotions), and lay aside the natural inhibitions which would prevent them resorting to eating human flesh. As you say, 'we all have control'.

I would draw to your attention that they didn't have control of their hunger, at that precise moment. Were they 'wrong' to obey their feelings?


Please reply to the questions in this post.

Of course people don't have control over their hunger, but they do have control over their actions. Those women in Jerusalem made the choice to eat their children, there have been countless humans who have died of starvation without eating their children, and in fact they have done everything humanly possible to provide food for their children at the expense of themselves.

All the best to you my friend,
Rose

Rose
12-10-2011, 02:40 PM
You left out the major ingredient that enables people to love thy enemies (who are also neighbors) as thyself. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with all thy heart, soul, mind and strength. Of course, everthing is a choice to christians and non-christians alike.


Are you saying all mothers love their children and treat them with love? You know that is not true. I do believe that God has put into men and women a strong desire to love their children, but this does not always happen, does it.


So, obviously, many choose not to love or there are a combination of problems that prevent them from "choosing". What might those problems be?


1) How do you change people's hearts to treat others as they would like to be treated? Or do you just rely on laws to enforce mutual respect (which does not really mean loving from the heart).

2) What motivation do they have to treat others the way they want to be treated? Richard says, "Love". What about those who don't treat others well? Will the motivation be LAW? And let me revise this a bit because most people love their friends and others that are nice to them. But, what motivation do they have to love their enemies?

Wishing you a wonderful day, Rose.
Rick

210




Hi Rick, :yo:

I don't think the ability to love one's enemies has anything to do with loving "God". The history books are full of non-religious people who have given their lives for their enemies because they chose not to fight back. I myself don't think "turning the other cheek" and "loving your enemies" is always the right thing to do either. Take for instance, if my home was being broken into and my family threaten with violence, I would not turn the other cheek...nothing is to be gained by allowing bad people to carry out their evil deeds.

Of course all mothers don't love their children, and many abuse them, but what does that have to do with anything? It doesn't mean they don't know better, or would want the same kind of treatment they are doling out to their children done to them. If you were to ask most of the people doing immoral things if they would want those things done to themselves they would say NO.

The big question is where does "knowing good" come from? We have to know good to be able to judge what is written in the Bible concerning what it says about "God" being good. The only place we can find the standard for good is by looking into ourselves and discovering how we want to be "treated". I use the word "treated" because "love" carries many connotations that aren't always appropriate, whereas treating others with respect and equality is an action that is alway appropriate and can be carried out.

What person on the planet would ever think it was morally right to stone a person for picking up sticks on a particular day of the week if it were not for "God" telling them to do so? I'm sure any person (Christian included) that you would ask today about whether stoning a person was morality right for picking up sticks on the Sabbath would give you a resounding NO! The Bible teaches many things that we judge to be morally wrong by using our own innate sense of what is right and wrong.

All the best to you my friend,
Rose

Charisma
12-10-2011, 02:43 PM
Dear Rose,

Thank you for your reply to my post.

What I wrote was trying to make sense of what you have been saying about everyone having an innate standard, the strong implication being that this standard does away with the need for a Saviour.

You assume that a child would prefer not to be molested, but many of them don't realise they've been molested, so why would they wish they hadn't been?

Upwards of 50% of females are molested while still children or minors, and at least 25% of males - who are estimated to receive an higher average number of assaults from their abusers, than females.

The on-cost into adult life is virtually incalculable, since most survivors of childhood abuse can never become what they would have been if they had not been molested. It's a moot point that perhaps some have more to offer others because they've been molested, but for every one who can turn it into a positive experience, there are more who cannot.


Why would you think that a person who had been molested as a child would have a normal sense of how people treat each other?This is precisely my point. That human nature is corrupt and it is corruptible.

I contend that the only reason you can hold your current opinions is that you're in denial about the true state of heart of the average human.

jce
12-10-2011, 03:43 PM
Hi Charisma, :yo:

I'm surprised I have to explain this to you. When I speak of treating others as one wants to be treated, I am speaking of normal human beings not psychopaths and pedophiles, and I am quite sure the pedophile would not have wanted to be raped as a child (maybe that's what caused his disorder). There is a standard that all normal people hold when they think of how they want to be treated; with respect, and equality.

All the best to you my friend,
Rose

What is so interesting about this topic, and the forum in general, is that everyone has a point of view and an argument to support it. It's what contributes to the difficulty of establishing an agreement between opposing viewpoints.

Since this topic is based on the subject of Morality, lets examine the proponent's view of the godless version of morality. This premise is predicated on the assumption that all humans are born with a built in moral compass. All of the godless beings know good from evil and their basic moral standard is the "Golden Rule"... do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It merely requires that all participants are endowed with a uniform desire to be treated uniformly and everyone must be uniformly normal.

Let me digress for a moment with an irrelevant comment. Many US citizens today are experiencing economic difficulties so much so that not only have they lost their jobs and cars, but also their homes. This of course has resulted in the victims adopting a negative attitude about the economy. In the midst of such negativity, a few others have suggested that there is a positive side to this economic slump, and that is that the slump has created some investment opportunities in the foreclosed home market. The catchphrase for this dichotomy is; "Fortunes are made in times like these" with one minor caveat; "by those with fortunes".

Back to the topic. When something sounds like a good thing, it's not a bad idea to look for a caveat. In the case of the godless moral society, there might be a caveat. Any thoughts out there on what it might be?

John

Rose
12-10-2011, 03:46 PM
Dear Rose,

Thank you for your reply to my post.

What I wrote was trying to make sense of what you have been saying about everyone having an innate standard, the strong implication being that this standard does away with the need for a Saviour.

You assume that a child would prefer not to be molested, but many of them don't realise they've been molested, so why would they wish they hadn't been?

Upwards of 50% of females are molested while still children or minors, and at least 25% of males - who are estimated to receive an higher average number of assaults from their abusers, than females.

The on-cost into adult life is virtually incalculable, since most survivors of childhood abuse can never become what they would have been if they had not been molested. It's a moot point that perhaps some have more to offer others because they've been molested, but for every one who can turn it into a positive experience, there are more who cannot.

Hi Charisma, :yo:

I'm not sure I understand the point you are trying to make.:confused: What does the high number of children that are molested have to do with innate morality? My premise is that the standard for morality comes from the "normal" self-aware human heart, not from someone who has a damaged psyche whatever the cause might be.

In order for a person to be able to judge the goodness of God contained in the Bible they must have a sense of right and wrong to begin with. A person with a mental condition of not knowing right from wrong could not make heads or tails of the Bible because they wouldn't be able to judge what is right from what is wrong. All the years I was a Christian, I was tormented by all the immoral acts that "God" did, and commanded the Hebrews to do...my poor little brain just couldn't understand how a loving God could command such horrendous acts to be done. :eek:


This is precisely my point. That human nature is corrupt and it is corruptible.

I contend that the only reason you can hold your current opinions is that you're in denial about the true state of heart of the average human.

I agree that their are corrupt humans, but I strongly disagree that human nature is corrupt! As far as my being in denial about the true state of the human heart...I don't think so, most human hearts are good, rather I think it is you who is in denial of how "God" is presented in the Bible...a loving god would in no-way treat his creation the way Yahweh did in much of the Old Testament, and create a place of eternal conscious torment for those who don't believe in him.

All the best,
Rose

heb13-13
12-10-2011, 03:55 PM
Hi Everyone,

I think the big question is "Who defines what normal is" in the absence of Jesus Christ? With men, everything changes according to their feelings or according to how "enlightened" they think they have become. I wish it was as simple as "common sense". I do understand what Charisma is saying. Man changes with the wind. His plumbline changes, but God's never does.

And Jesus did tell us what the standard for humans is.

"Men love those who love them and do good to those who do good to them". That is the human standard according to Jesus.

Yes, we don't need a lawgiver to force us to love one another. That is an oxymoron.

We needed a God of Love to demonstrate His true love for us and then write the Law of Love in our hearts to all who receive Him (spiritual regeneration). And His life gives us a new standard of loving our enemies. This is the standard for those who truly and truthfully follow Jesus.

Regarding non-Christians, there are exceptions of course but a standard suggests that the propensity of man follows the standard that Jesus described for men without God.

It does not negate the standard of God if 99% of "Christianity" does not follow it. God does not compromise to please man, He sticks to His standards. Man has to come to God on His terms not the other way around.

Blessings to all,
Rick

Rose
12-10-2011, 04:10 PM
What is so interesting about this topic, and the forum in general, is that everyone has a point of view and an argument to support it. It's what contributes to the difficulty of establishing an agreement between opposing viewpoints.

Since this topic is based on the subject of Morality, lets examine the proponent's view of the godless version of morality. This premise is predicated on the assumption that all humans are born with a built in moral compass. All of the godless beings know good from evil and their basic moral standard is the "Golden Rule"... do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It merely requires that all participants are endowed with a uniform desire to be treated uniformly and everyone must be uniformly normal.

Let me digress for a moment with an irrelevant comment. Many US citizens today are experiencing economic difficulties so much so that not only have they lost their jobs and cars, but also their homes. This of course has resulted in the victims adopting a negative attitude about the economy. In the midst of such negativity, a few others have suggested that there is a positive side to this economic slump, and that is that the slump has created some investment opportunities in the foreclosed home market. The catchphrase for this dichotomy is; "Fortunes are made in times like these" with one minor caveat; "by those with fortunes".

Back to the topic. When something sounds like a good thing, it's not a bad idea to look for a caveat. In the case of the godless moral society, there might be a caveat. Any thoughts out there on what it might be?

John

Hi John :yo:

You have me a bit confused...:confused2: I'm not sure I understand why you introduced the idea of a "godless version of morality", or a "godless moral society", implying that believing in some type of god somehow changes a persons innate standard of morality? The Golden Rule remains the same whether or not one believes in a god.

The premise I have continued to hold is that our morals have nothing to do with "God", but rather has everything to do with treating others the way you wish to be treated...that is with respect and equality.

I have no clue what kind of "caveat" you might be thinking of?

All the best to you my friend, and thank you for introducing this topic :signthankspin:
Rose

Rose
12-10-2011, 04:36 PM
Hi Everyone,

I think the big question is "Who defines what normal is" in the absence of Jesus Christ? With men, everything changes according to their feelings or according to how "enlightened" they think they have become. I wish it was as simple as "common sense". I do understand what Charisma is saying. Man changes with the wind. His plumbline changes, but God's never does.

Hi Rick, :yo:

We are all human, so what is "moral" never changes no matter what god you do or don't believe in. The Golden Rule is eternal, it remains the same as long as there are humans living on this planet, regardless of Jesus. One of the main reasons people seem to disregard their innate sense of morality, and go against their common sense is when a god, such as Yahweh, commands them to commit acts of immorality.


And Jesus did tell us what the standard for humans is.

"Men love those who love them and do good to those who do good to them". That is the human standard according to Jesus.

Yes, we don't need a lawgiver to force us to love one another. That is an oxymoron.

We needed a God of Love to demonstrate His true love for us and then write the Law of Love in our hearts to all who receive Him (spiritual regeneration). And His life gives us a new standard of loving our enemies. This is the standard for those who truly and truthfully follow Jesus.

Regarding non-Christians, there are exceptions of course but a standard suggests that the propensity of man follows the standard that Jesus described for men without God.

It does not negate the standard of God if 99% of "Christianity" does not follow it. God does not compromise to please man, He sticks to His standards. Man has to come to God on His terms not the other way around.

Blessings to all,
Rick

There is nothing wrong with loving those who love us, and doing good to those who do good to us, but of course that should not be at the expense of how we treat others. And as far as loving our enemies goes, the percentages are just as high among non-Christians as Christians. The world is full of humanitarians and pacifists who have no religious affiliation and are busy loving their enemies.

All the best,
Rose

heb13-13
12-10-2011, 04:40 PM
Hi Rick, :yo:

We are all human, so what is "moral" never changes no matter what god you do or don't believe in. The Golden Rule is eternal, it remains the same as long as there are humans living on this planet, regardless of Jesus. One of the main reasons people seem to disregard their innate sense of morality, and go against their common sense is when a god, such as Yahweh, commands them to commit acts of immorality.



There is nothing wrong with loving those who love us, and doing good to those who do good to us, but of course that should not be at the expense of how we treat others. And as far as loving our enemies goes, the percentages are just as high among non-Christians as Christians. The world is full of humanitarians and pacifists who have no religious affiliation and are busy loving their enemies.

All the best,
Rose

Ok, whatever you say, Rose. I thought that might be behind it. God is bad and man is gooder.:yo:

May the rest of your weekend be happy.
Rick

Rose
12-10-2011, 05:13 PM
Ok, whatever you say, Rose. I thought that might be behind it. God is bad and man is gooder.:yo:

May the rest of your weekend be happy.
Rick

So, what's that supposed to mean "whatever I say"?

Again, you missed my point entirely. :p What I'm saying is that it becomes pretty obvious that the God of the Bible was made up in the minds of men, when many of his actions are so bias and immoral that it makes some of humanities worst criminals look tame. :eek:

All the best to you too my friend,
Rose

heb13-13
12-10-2011, 06:13 PM
Hello to Rose and all readers,

Where did Jesus say this? (Sorry, I can't find it, but I think it's in one of the gospels.)

Also, Jesus carried it right on to the cross, when He said, 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do'.

Lastly, Paul translated it for believers: Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Paul's use of this particular Greek word for 'affection' is to do with mood and response to outside influences, and, is different from other Greek words he chose in other epistles, which have been translated 'affection' in the KJV.

Unless you embrace the cross on the terms which Paul embraced it, neither you (nor I, nor anyone) will be able to treat others they way we would like to be treated.

You see, it has to be reversible. It's not just about you doing nice things so that others do nice things to you. It's about doing nice things when people do terrible things to you.

It's only then, that your 'morality' has been properly tested and found truly embedded in your heart and mind.
That's when you (anyone) has become truly 'moral' in the terms you have chosen.

I would contend that only Jesus Christ accomplished morality of this calibre and more, because truly, He actually did not fail in the attempt.

Furthermore, I would contend that unless we accept the working of the cross of Christ in our lives as a spiritual truth which makes a spiritual impact, we are incapable of accomplishing the morality Christ taught, and that Christ demonstrated when He prayed: 'Father forgive them, they know not what they do'.

Hi Charisma,

That is a very good point. And the Cross has everything to do with us abiding in the light and abiding in the love of God.

John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

By extension if you are not following Jesus you are walking in darkness and do not have the light of life. What good will your morality do for you if you knowingly reject Christ (by not following Him or abiding in Him)? Better for you to never have known Him.

If you are the most moral man in the world (according to man's value system) what good is it if you are not walking in the light? If you consider that God is obligated to save you because of what you think of yourself (as being so incredibly moral), then you are blind and lost and so am I and so is anyone else that thinks this way. You still lose your soul.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 3:21
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

1Jn 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Richard and Rose, it does not matter what the rest of Christianity is doing or not doing. What you are responsible for is what you are doing with Jesus Christ and your knowledge of Him and His words.

All the best,
Rick

jce
12-10-2011, 07:15 PM
Hi John :yo:

You have me a bit confused...:confused2: I'm not sure I understand why you introduced the idea of a "godless version of morality", or a "godless moral society", implying that believing in some type of god somehow changes a persons innate standard of morality? The Golden Rule remains the same whether or not one believes in a god.

All the best to you my friend, and thank you for introducing this topic :signthankspin:
Rose

No God=Godless.

John

heb13-13
12-10-2011, 07:28 PM
No God=Godless.

John

man's innate standard of morality = none righteous, no not one.

Rom 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

I would rather be considered righteous by God than moral by man. I will always fail man's morality meters.


Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law (his innate morality), but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


So, if we are depending upon our own "innate morality" apart from Christ, you and I will be very disappointed when we stand before God and boast about our morality. I think people will feel kind of naked standing before God and boasting about their morality when they will instantly be faced with all the inconsistencies in their lives where they were not moral. That is where the blood of Christ comes to our rescue.

Eph 2:9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Getting late, great chatting with you, today.
Rick

jce
12-10-2011, 07:39 PM
Hi Charisma, :yo:

NO, I do not think everyone is good! People do horrible things to each other all the time. My point is the standard for morality is something that is innate within us all, we do not need a law-giver to give it to us. People choose to go against their innate sense of morality for a variety of reasons; some things like mental illness is beyond their control, but many bad things people do to others they most definitely don't want done to themselves.

All the best to you my friend,
Rose

So, what does your godless morality dictate that you should do to those who violate your godless moral standard? And please don't take offense at the question or it's phrasing. Whenever God is deleted from an equation, it not only of necessity becomes godless, it also raises many more questions, not the least of which is origins.

Rose, I know it sounds like you are being persecuted for your beliefs but that is not the case. I would be surprised if you were not still held in esteem and loved by those who have known you in times past as a sister in Christ.

John

jce
12-10-2011, 07:46 PM
So, if you are depending upon your own "innate morality" apart from Christ, you and I will be very disappointed when you stand before God and boast about your morality. I think people will feel kind of naked standing before God and boasting about their morality when they will instantly be faced with all the inconsistencies in their lives where there were not moral. That is where the blood of Christ comes to our rescue.

Getting late, great chatting with you, today.
Rick

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Good statement Rick. True humility is the result of the inner man being fully exposed to the righteousness of God's law and it becomes the outward mark of the true believer.

Blessing to you Rick.

John

heb13-13
12-10-2011, 08:28 PM
Good statement Rick. True humility is the result of the inner man being fully exposed to the righteousness of God's law and it becomes the outward mark of the true believer.

Blessing to you Rick.

John

Thank you, John.

Without God, like Adam and Eve, we will always find ways to compensate, make ourselves feel good and cover our own sin.

Some ways are very simple while others are very sophisticated.

Blessings to you and everyone,
Rick

CWH
12-11-2011, 05:40 PM
Hey there Cheow Wee, :yo:

Glad you joined the conversation. :thumb:

The "morals" of which you speak are social rules. They may be good, bad, or indifferent. Therefore, they are not the "morals" about which we are talking. We are talking about what is really right or wrong. Now what people might say is right or wrong. Do you not believe in right and wrong? Or are you a relativist who says there is no right or wrong.

I presume you believe some things are really right and other things are really wrong, no matter what the "moral rules" of some society says. Great! We are in perfect agreement on that point.

So what then determines what is right and what is wrong? Simple! The Golden Rule. Do no harm to others - just like Paul said (Rom 13:10).

This isn't rocket science. It's the most basic moral teaching taught by all enlightened teachers. It is the Royal Law of Universal Love.

I can't believe the stuff you say sometimes Cheow!

If "free sex" is harmful to self or others, then it is immoral.

The same goes for all the things you mentioned. That's why, for example, modern societies have come to accept homosexuality. It has been determined by doctors that it is not bad for people. Fifty years ago, the APA listed homosexuality as a psychological disorder. The profesional psychologists no longer believe that. And why not? Becuase they have looked at the evidence and concluded that was the scientific evidence does not support that idea. So they changed their opinions to match the evidence.

Likewise, does greed help or hurt? Probably both I would say. So you can't say it's good or bad. It's more complicated than that (as are many moral issues).

And yes, laws are necessary. So what?

As for "God's Laws" - you mean we should stone people who break the sabbath? Which of "God's laws" are you talking about?



I'm glad we agree about the Universal Law of Love. But you made an unjustified leap and added the command to "love God." That is not a unversal law, since most people never heard of the Jewish God you say they are supposed to love.

More careful thinking will get you further, my friend.

All the best,

Richard

So you support homosexuality and free sex! :eek:. These are abominations to God. And you know that those outside the Gates of New Jerusalem include fornicators.


As for "God's Laws" - you mean we should stone people who break the sabbath? Which of "God's laws" are you talking about?
Yes, God's laws can be harsh, so are human laws...capital punishment for selling or possessing narcotics and murders, torture and death for terrorists etc.


I'm glad we agree about the Universal Law of Love. But you made an unjustified leap and added the command to "love God." That is not a unversal law, since most people never heard of the Jewish God you say they are supposed to love.

You deliberately left Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and focus only on Love your neighbor as yourself because you don't believe in a Christian God. Looks like you are changing the 2 most important commandments of Jesus to one. Haven't you notice that both Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and Love your neighbor as yourself ALWAYS goes together? I have said that if there is a Universal Love, there may be a Universal God. Ultimately, all religions will embrace a Universal God and I do not specify a Jewish God. Perhaps, all gods that human believes ultimately will embrace the Universal God of which Christ is King. People may embrace other gods but if they also embrace the Universal Law of Love your neighbor as yourself , they have fully satisfy 50% of Jesus commandments, perhaps that may allow God to forgive them for believing in other gods. Anyway, Grace is from God and God can easily convert them back to believing in the Universal God as afterall, righteous souls are what God is looking for.

God is Great! In Jesus Name. :pray:

Rose
12-11-2011, 06:04 PM
So you support homosexuality and free sex! :eek:. These are abominations to God. And you know that those outside the Gates of New Jerusalem include fornicators.


Yes, God's laws can be harsh, so are human laws...capital punishment for selling or possessing narcotics and murders, torture and death for terrorists etc.

God is Great! In Jesus Name. :pray:

Hi Cheow, :yo:

If homosexuality is such an abomination, then why did God create humans to be born with that desire? Humans don't choose to be homosexual they are born that way, so it looks like God screwed up in his design somewhere. :p

What do you mean by "free sex"? God did tell the male and female to be fruitful and multiply didn't he? :lol:

All the best,
Rose

Charisma
12-11-2011, 06:52 PM
Hello Rose, John and Rick,

I have a little catching up to do here.


Why would you think that a person who had been molested as a child would have a normal sense of how people treat each other?As I said, this is precisely my point.

Perhaps you could ask Richard to do the math on the longest possible time it would take, beginning with everyone being 'moral' by your standard, to run out of people who had never been molested, and had never molested anyone, who you would be able to retain as 'normal' for the purposes of your thesis?

Experts suggest that at least 1 in 10 men molest children, and they (the molesters) account for 90%. The other 10% are females. Both men and women molest both boys and girls. 7% of victims of sexual abuse also abuse. (That's a very conservative estimate.) 93% of victims do not abuse. (I won't repeat the earlier stats, here.)
A proportion of adults who have no recollection of having been molested, take up molesting children... This will alter the above estimates, somewhat.

Rick made the comment (which is one of the things I was trying to get at in my previous two posts)

I think the big question is "Who defines what normal is" in the absence of Jesus Christ?to which you, Rose, replied
We are all human, so what is "moral" never changes no matter what god you do or don't believe in.Earlier you had said to me:
All the years I was a Christian, I was tormented by all the immoral acts that "God" did, and commanded the Hebrews to do...my poor little brain just couldn't understand how a loving God could command such horrendous acts to be done.What this informs me is, that you continued to accept the world's definition of 'morality', and never had honestly rejected this conditioning of your natural mind, to come into agreement with God's standards of holy intolerance of sin. This attitude (on your part) suggests you've never really understood how sin separates man from God, and, rather than face the consequences of such an acknowledgement, you have (until now, despite thinking yourself to be a Christian for so long) been offended by God's 'standard'. This is what you're really grappling with... a way to make peace with a lower standard (that is, the standard of fallen man) rather than accepting the way to make peace between God's holy standard and man's fallenness, which was provided by Jesus Christ.

Luke 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. 23 And blessed is [he], whosoever shall not be offended in me.

What you're really saying, is that you want no part in bringing the message of spiritual healing to mankind; you want no victory over sin, no eternal life in 'a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness', 2 Peter 3:13), and above all, you don't want to be acknowledged before God on the day of judgement, as one of whom Jesus Christ can say, 'Well done, thou good and faithful servant'.


I hope you're not too sure about that. :pray:



You wouldn't be the first person to be deeply offended by the possibility that God is saying to you in a language which is hard to accept, that you are so 'evil' that Jesus Christ had to take your sin to the cross with Him. But in its simplest terms, that is 'the gospel', and it is good news!



Maybe one day you will see it that way. I certainly hope so.



I hope, too, that you can see these intentions of God in Christ Jesus, are the answer to every molested child as much as every molester of children.

(Any sin can be conquered. Any consequences of sin can be healed. Anyone who is poor in spirit can be strengthened through Christ, to serve God without fear.)

Charisma
12-11-2011, 06:54 PM
Hi John,

This is the beginning of your post on p4 of this thread:

What is so interesting about this topic, and the forum in general, is that everyone has a point of view and an argument to support it. It's what contributes to the difficulty of establishing an agreement between opposing viewpoints.You aren't suggesting there can be 'agreement' between 'opposting viewpoints', are you?

CWH
12-11-2011, 07:30 PM
Hi Cheow, :yo:

If homosexuality is such an abomination, then why did God create humans to be born with that desire? Humans don't choose to be homosexual they are born that way, so it looks like God screwed up in his design somewhere. :p

What do you mean by "free sex"? God did tell the male and female to be fruitful and multiply didn't he? :lol:

All the best,
Rose

Was Adam created homosexual and Eve created lesbian? No! they were created heterosexual. Therefore there is no one born from birth a homosexual or a lesbian...have you ever heard of homosexual/lesbian baby or toddler? This proves that such homosexual/lesbian behavior develops as they grow towards adulthood influenced also by social interactions. Try giving male kids, dress and panties to wear, dolls to play all the time and there is a high chance that they may become homosexual adults. The reason is that it confuses these kids their gender attributes and social behavior during their developmental stage. If you have read stories on "wolf" children you will know what I mean. Children that were raised by wolves will behave like wolves due to their interactions in the social behavior of wolves. God did not screw up His design but of course there may be some rare freaks just like in production, there will be some reject units.

Free sex means that males and females are very open to sex i.e. very promiscuous. Imagine the moment you step out of your house or go anywhere and males and females will approach you for sex for free knowing you will tend to give in to their desires...would you want to live in this sort of society?


God did tell the male and female to be fruitful and multiply didn't he?
Yes, but God did not told them to be promiscuous or to prostitute themselves. God meant them to have many children through normal sexual behaviors, multiple marriages.

All the best in Jesus Name. :pray:

heb13-13
12-11-2011, 07:46 PM
Was Adam created homosexual and Eve created lesbian? No! they were created heterosexual. Therefore there is no one born from birth a homosexual or a lesbian...have you ever heard of homosexual/lesbian baby or toddler? This proves that such homosexual/lesbian behavior develops as they grow towards adulthood influenced also by social interactions. Try giving male kids, dress and panties to wear, dolls to play all the time and there is a high chance that they may become homosexual adults. The reason is that it confuses these kids their gender attributes and social behavior during their developmental stage. If you have read stories on "wolf" children you will know what I mean. Children that were raised by wolves will behave like wolves due to their interactions in the social behavior of wolves. God did not screw up His design but of course there may be some rare freaks just like in production, there will be some reject units.

Free sex means that males and females are very open to sex i.e. very promiscuous. Imagine the moment you step out of your house or go anywhere and males and females will approach you for sex for free knowing you will tend to give in to their desires...would you want to live in this sort of society?


Yes, but God did not told them to be promiscuous or to prostitute themselves. God meant them to have many children through normal sexual behaviors, multiple marriages.

All the best in Jesus Name. :pray:

Of course you are right, Cheow. We have God's Word and the word and experience of many, many former homosexuals who have been delivered from that unclean and perverted spirit.

You can find hundreds of testimonies of those who were in captivity to that spirit and have subsequently been delivered from it's bondage on www.exodusinternational.com (http://www.exodusinternational.com) as well as other web sites. The media wants to keep it quiet but there are many lives that have been delivered and transformed by the power of God.

http://exodusinternational.org/2011/11/a-mothers-perspective/

Grace and peace to all,
Rick

Rose
12-11-2011, 09:12 PM
Was Adam created homosexual and Eve created lesbian? No! they were created heterosexual. Therefore there is no one born from birth a homosexual or a lesbian...have you ever heard of homosexual/lesbian baby or toddler? This proves that such homosexual/lesbian behavior develops as they grow towards adulthood influenced also by social interactions. Try giving male kids, dress and panties to wear, dolls to play all the time and there is a high chance that they may become homosexual adults. The reason is that it confuses these kids their gender attributes and social behavior during their developmental stage. If you have read stories on "wolf" children you will know what I mean. Children that were raised by wolves will behave like wolves due to their interactions in the social behavior of wolves. God did not screw up His design but of course there may be some rare freaks just like in production, there will be some reject units.

I think you are very misinformed about the causes of homosexuality. Males do not become homosexuals because they were given dolls to play with as children, and it has nothing to do with gender confusion. The proclivity for homosexuality starts in young children, but does not strongly manifest itself until puberty when a persons sexuality really begins to develop. Our attraction to the same sex or the opposite sex is totally dependent on the chemicals and hormones we produce in our bodies, not on some choice we as individuals make.

I have read numerous testimonies of individuals who have prayed and pleaded with God to take their homosexual feelings away to no avail, so the only choice left to them is to remain celibate, without a partner to share their life with.

All the best,
Rose

heb13-13
12-11-2011, 11:23 PM
I think you are very misinformed about the causes of homosexuality. Males do not become homosexuals because they were given dolls to play with as children, and it has nothing to do with gender confusion. The proclivity for homosexuality starts in young children, but does not strongly manifest itself until puberty when a persons sexuality really begins to develop. Our attraction to the same sex or the opposite sex is totally dependent on the chemicals and hormones we produce in our bodies, not on some choice we as individuals make.

I have read numerous testimonies of individuals who have prayed and pleaded with God to take their homosexual feelings away to no avail, so the only choice left to them is to remain celibate, without a partner to share their life with.

All the best,
Rose

Sorry Rose, I won't exchange the truth of God for a lie, no matter how "informed" you are.

Peace to you,
Rick

jce
12-12-2011, 04:30 AM
Hi John,

This is the beginning of your post on p4 of this thread:
You aren't suggesting there can be 'agreement' between 'opposting viewpoints', are you?

If the law of non contradiction applies, then one of two opposing viewpoints must be erroneous. Once the truth is revealed and acknowledged, the one who was wrong, will agree with the one who was right.

John

Charisma
12-12-2011, 04:51 AM
If the law of non contradiction applies, then one of two opposing viewpoints must be erroneous. Once the truth is revealed and acknowledged, the one who was wrong, will agree with the one who was right.Thanks, John! I was hoping you would say something like this, and not... it's essential that both parties compromise.

heb13-13
12-12-2011, 07:35 AM
Thanks, John! I was hoping you would say something like this, and not... it's essential that both parties compromise.

Yes, thanks John. Makes perfect sense to me.

Both cannot be true. And when truth prevails the other will be seen for what it is.

Rick

Rose
12-12-2011, 09:54 AM
Of course you are right, Cheow. We have God's Word and the word and experience of many, many former homosexuals who have been delivered from that unclean and perverted spirit.

You can find hundreds of testimonies of those who were in captivity to that spirit and have subsequently been delivered from it's bondage on www.exodusinternational.com (http://www.exodusinternational.com) as well as other web sites. The media wants to keep it quiet but there are many lives that have been delivered and transformed by the power of God.

http://exodusinternational.org/2011/11/a-mothers-perspective/

Grace and peace to all,
Rick

Hi Rick,

I am saddened that you are still locked into the mindset promoting the lie that people with homosexual feelings need to be delivered from unclean or perverted spirits. It is the same false belief that has led people to classify mentally ill people as being demon possessed. Homosexuals need to be shown the same equality to live their lives with a partner of their choice, just as heterosexuals are...they are human beings with the same need to be loved as you and I. They don't need to be stuck in some "therapy" program to try and change them...unless of course it is their wish.

You say the media wants to keep quiet about the many lives that have been "delivered" from the unclean spirit of homosexuality, but you failed to mention that the church keeps quiet about the many lives that have been destroyed by trying to force people with homosexual feelings to change who they are and live unhappy lives as imposters...not to mention the "scarlet badge" they are labeled with.

All the best,
Rose

Rose
12-12-2011, 10:01 AM
If the law of non contradiction applies, then one of two opposing viewpoints must be erroneous. Once the truth is revealed and acknowledged, the one who was wrong, will agree with the one who was right.

John

Hi John, :yo:

The one thing about Truth is that it cannot be shaken and will always stand. This plays out in the field of science, and mathematics...if a theory is correct it will hold up, whereas a false theory will fail.

Rose

heb13-13
12-12-2011, 01:04 PM
Hi Rick,

I am saddened that you are still locked into the mindset

Still? When did I not have this belief?


promoting the lie that people with homosexual feelings need to be delivered from unclean or perverted spirits.

I did not say 'homosexual feelings'. You classify a temptation now as demon-possessed. It may surely come from an unclean spirit but I did not call "feelings", possession.


It is the same false belief that has led people to classify mentally ill people as being demon possessed.

You are taking liberties, aren't you? I don't believe all mentally ill people are demon possessed.



Homosexuals need to be shown the same equality to live their lives with a partner of their choice, just as heterosexuals are...they are human beings with the same need to be loved as you and I.

They can live with anyone they want or anyway they want. The same freedom that God gives them, I give them. But, I don't have to adopt their beliefs, do I? Will they give me the freedom to believe what I want to believe. I certainly give them the freedom to live anyway they want.


They don't need to be stuck in some "therapy" program to try and change them...unless of course it is their wish.

Yes, of course, unless it is their wish. Many have chosen this wish.


You say the media wants to keep quiet about the many lives that have been "delivered" from the unclean spirit of homosexuality, but you failed to mention that the church keeps quiet about the many lives that have been destroyed by trying to force people with homosexual feelings to change who they are and live unhappy lives as imposters...not to mention the "scarlet badge" they are labeled with.

Yes, I agree. It is stupid to masquerade as a Christian if you are not one. No one can live the Christian life or understand and believe and embrace God's point of view if they do not have the Spirit of God. It is impossible to live this life because it takes the life of Jesus in one, to walk in the Spirit and crucify the flesh. Those who try living this life in their own strength, always end up "falling away" and then accusing of God of not being real or worse still, being disinterested and detached.


All the best,
Rose

All the best to you,
Rick

Live and let live!!

kathryn
12-12-2011, 01:18 PM
Hello All....it is our carnal mindsets, not people..which are abominations.

Women were not allowed in the Temple...because the Temple was a type of the Woman/Bride and if a woman entered "her" there would be no life; NOT because she was inferior.

The same applies to homosexuality. God is no discriminator of persons. Of what He has made , nothing is UNclean. He had to tell Peter this 3 times, symbolising the 3 phases of redemption. These are 3 phases of taking down our carnal mindsets which has separated mankind into "good" and "evil". We are unable to FULLY partake of the Tree of Life, until these mindsets come down.

Tares are not people...they are carnal mindsets. Homosexuality...as in ALL types in scripture, refers to the Spirit/mind/heart (which is male and must be circumcised and soul/feminine/concious mind)...NOT the physical flesh of mankind.

When mankind traded the truth of God for a lie, they began the downward spiral referred to in the 1st chapter of Romans...and God gave them the CURSE of learning about him "precept upon precept"(Isaiah..ALL of Chapter 28 ...and 1st chapter of Romans) rather that the WORD MADE FLESH...the witness in creation which we were ALWAYS meant to understand His character and purposes!

The very bottom of that spiral, is when He gives them over to the vanity of their minds and the lust of their flesh(carnal mind)...women, which BEGIN and END as a type of the "soul" in typology, begin to lust after other women (the carnal mindsets of the soul). Likewise, men (spirit...as the UNcircumcised heart) lust after other mindsets ruled by the UNcircumcized heart) This chapter of Romans MUST be read in the context in which it was given.

A person born homosexual or transgender (with both male and female hormones and genetalia) are NOT abominations. They are beloved Children of God, of whom He died to save ALL mankind!

What evil has been perpetrated on young men and women...many of them brutally murdered for the way God Himself created them, because of this perversion of satan! It MUST be cast down!

kathryn
12-12-2011, 01:40 PM
Just think on this for a moment; We are part of the Royal Priesthood of God. If we were to judge someone by the way they were born...my little grandson who was born with a disability, would not, according to God's Law , be allowed to enter the Holy of Holies. No one, with a physical imperfection, could enter.

All of God's Laws are describing TWO "men"...the carnal OLD man, and the divine NEW man. All of typology is referring the heart and mind...Spirit and Soul.

In fact NONE of us could enter in, in this refining stage of the Body...because we are continually "touching a dead body"...as long as we have our dual nature and iniquity has not been removed from our "midst".

So...by judging others in this manner, we are bringing judgement upon ourselves. We are all ONE...ALL of Mankind, in various stages of the birthing of the ONE Man...the Christ who is 'IN AND THROUGH" all things....and therefore cursing our own body, until we can properly judge or "discern" the Christ in each one of us.

THIS is the meaning of "many will be sick and die" for not discerning the Body of Christ, in taking "communion".

kathryn
12-12-2011, 01:49 PM
I just wanted to add, that this is one mindset that has only come down in me in the past two years. I have a dear family member who is a Lesbian, and of whom I have judged for years. (not openly...but in my heart...which is the place it truly matters and what defiles US) So....please don't feel I am saying this harshly to anyone still holding this belief. I know this one takes a long time to unravel...and the most deadly ones, usually do.

Charisma
12-12-2011, 02:38 PM
Hello all,

I'm lacking in time and energy this evening, but I have to say something about this statement, Kathryn, :)

A person born homosexualThere is no such person on earth, nor ever has been. The second half of Romans 1 explains how a person becomes vulnerable to homosexual feelings and behaviour, and how their 'normality' is gradually eroded the more they come into agreement with this abomination.

If you do a study on the word for 'affection' in the KJV phrase 'vile affection', you will see how it differs from other uses of the word 'affection' in the KJV, and how it refers to an outside influence, producing a response in a person, which the person, through confusion, (Lev 18), may then hold themselves responsible.

According to Paul, they are responsible for disregarding the truth of God in any measure, as it has been revealed in all mankind.


I have not written anything (above) which is not in scripture. It is dangerous to move off the ground of scripture for our doctrine. Satan loves a lie.

kathryn
12-12-2011, 02:50 PM
Hello all,

I'm lacking in time and energy this evening, but I have to say something about this statement, Kathryn, :)
There is no such person on earth, nor ever has been. The second half of Romans 1 explains how a person becomes vulnerable to homosexual feelings and behaviour, and how their 'normality' is gradually eroded the more they come into agreement with this abomination.No Charisma...this is wrong. Science is now proving this...and how would you explain someone with both male and female hormones and genetalia. Again...you aren't reading this in context. The Abomination is the "trading the Truth for a lie....refusing to see God's CHARACTER and nature in His creation.

If you do a study on the word for 'affection' in the KJV phrase 'vile affection', you will see how it differs from other uses of the word 'affection' in the KJV, and how it refers to an outside influence, producing a response in a person, which the person, through confusion, (Lev 18), may then hold themselves responsible.yes...we are vilely attached to our carnal mindsets until we SEE God's Truth and Love through His Rhema...proceeding Word made Flesh in and through His Creation

According to Paul, they are responsible for disregarding the truth of God in any measure, as it has been revealed in all mankind.


I have not written anything (above) which is not in scripture. It is dangerous to move off the ground of scripture for our doctrine. Satan loves a lie.Satan used the written Logos to tempt Jesus in the wilderness. Just because it is in the written Logos, does not mean it wasn't given as a curse or the Will of God. Jesus defeated him by the PROCEEDING WORD. It is His Word made Flesh in Creation, that will interpret the letter of the Word. Blessings, Dear Sis. I know this takes time.

Charisma
12-12-2011, 03:10 PM
Hi Kathryn,


It is His Word made Flesh in Creation, that will interpret the letter of the Word.I really don't see this in scripture. Jesus put it this way: John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. It is the Spirit which interprets the word to our understanding (hearts) so that we can process it by faith, and thus the word (Jesus Christ) can become flesh in us.

Regarding the effect of 'now you are clean through the word that I have spoken unto you' which Jesus said in John 15:3, Paul puts the same truth this way to ex-homosexuals in 1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, [I]but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

This is what the Bible teaches. It is easy to follow if the steps which should precede, have been followed in their most appropriate order for the individual. I am not putting God in a box. God has declared His own limitations, and intolerance of homosexual behaviour in His kingdom, is one we have to take as read.

(Please also note that 'fornication' mentioned 14 times in the Greek NT covers every kind of sexual perversion including those committed by marriage partners with each other; and, homosexual acts whether committed by a member of a heterosexual union with someone from outside the marriage, or, by a homosexual liaison.)

heb13-13
12-12-2011, 03:37 PM
Hello All....it is our carnal mindsets, not people..which are abominations.


Hi Kathryn,
You don't see in Ezra people being punished for "mindsets". They are being punished for the manifestation of their evil imagination. Their DEEDS.
And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our iniquities deserve, and hast given us such deliverance as this; (Ezra 9:13)

But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. (Rev 2:6)

How have you missed throughout the entire Bible that it is our deeds and works manifested from an evil and unbelieving heart that is an abomination unto God?

Matt 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Inwardly they are ravening wolves. You cannot see that which is inward, only God can see that. But He has given us a way to know.

Matt 7:16
Ye shall know them by their fruits (deeds, works, spoken words). Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:15)

This is the same death that Adam and Eve experienced *instantly* when they sinned.

All the best,
Rick

kathryn
12-12-2011, 05:04 PM
Hi Kathryn,

I really don't see this in scripture. Jesus put it this way: John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. It is the Spirit which interprets the word to our understanding (hearts) so that we can process it by faith, and thus the word (Jesus Christ) can become flesh in us. Hi Charisma...was there something in the above quote you were specifically pointing out..or was it for your comment below? The Comforter came to teach us the Rhema...in the Word made Flesh. This isn't just speaking of Jesus....it is the Word made Flesh in ALL of Creation. Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world and Christ is "in and through" ALL things. Our problem is in interpreting the written word with our carnal understanding. Have you ever had a Rhema word that God is judging homosexuality in the physical flesh of man? No where in scripture does it describe this. It is only describing the carnal heart/mind of man that is desperately wicked.

Regarding the effect of 'now you are clean through the word that I have spoken unto you' which Jesus said in John 15:3, Paul puts the same truth this way to ex-homosexuals in 1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind I explained what the fornicators were. Who is the Harlot in type? It is the FEMININE carnal mind/soul that co-habits with the UNcircumcised High Priest that sits on the "throne" on her mind; again, the UNcircumcised heart. Rahab was a harlot, until she understood the Nature and Power of the God of Israel who brought them into the Promised Land. For that, she and her household were taken out of Jericho (moon..carnal mind) before it was destroyed. She is in Jesus' lineage. 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, Have a look in Isaiah 28 again...and see this described. The thief is the Father of Lies who steals our TRUE identity etc. shall inherit the kingdom of God[/B]. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, [I]but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God[B]Again...washed or purified of the carnal mindsets. Nothing to do with the physical flesh.

This is what the Bible teaches. It is easy to follow if the steps which should precede, have been followed in their most appropriate order for the individual. I am not putting God in a box .oh...but you are!As well as a great percentage of His beloved people God has declared His own limitations, and intolerance of homosexual behaviour in His kingdom, is one we have to take as read.no...as given in Rhema...that interprets His Heart...not the written Logos. Again...it was given as a curse. You will have to reconcile this , before you can understand this.

(Please also note that 'fornication' mentioned 14 times in the Greek NT covers every kind of sexual perversion including those committed by marriage partners with each other; and, homosexual acts whether committed by a member of a heterosexual union with someone from outside the marriage, or, by a homosexual liaison.) yes...because just as physical intercourse was given as a physical type of the Spiritual relationship and the MYSTERY of Christ and His church...homosexuality...uncircumcised heart/spirit/male co-habiting with uncircumcised heart/spirit..carnal soul/mind (feminine) with carnal/soul/feminine. THIS is the earthy type given, for the HEAVENLY PATTERN IN THE TEMPLE/TABERNACLE.

kathryn
12-12-2011, 05:31 PM
Hi Kathryn,
You don't see in Ezra people being punished for "mindsets". They are being punished for the manifestation of their evil imagination. Their DEEDS.SORRY RICK...I HAVE TO CAPITALIZE THIS TO DISTINGUISH IT. I'M NOT SHOUTING AT YOU BRO! YES...I CERTAINLY SEE THAT THEY ARE BEING PUNISHED FOR THEIR EVIL IMAGINATIONS. BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOMOSEXUALS IN THE PHYSICAL.
And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our iniquities deserve, and hast given us such deliverance as this; (Ezra 9:13)YES...BUT IT IS YOU, NOT GOD, WHO IS JUDGING THIS FROM THE FRUIT OF THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. (Rev 2:6)

How have you missed throughout the entire Bible that it is our deeds and works manifested from an evil and unbelieving heart that is an abomination unto God?
THEY HAVE AN UNBELIEVING HEART FOR THE REASON GOD STATES IN ROMAN'S CHAPTER ONE...THEY EXCHANGED THE TRUTH OF GOD FOR A LIE, BY REFUSING TO BELIEVE HIS CHARACTER AND PURPOSES THROUGH THINGS THAT WERE CLEARLY AND PLAINLY SEEN. IF YOU HAD NO WRITTEN WORD...WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE SEEN IN CREATION, THAT WOULD MAKE YOU BELIEVE THAT HOMOSEXUALITY WAS A SIN? CERTAINLY, IT PRODUCES NO PHYSICAL LIFE....(AND I WILL GET TO THAT SHORTLY)....BUT THE HOMOSEXUALS I KNOW, ARE OFTEN MORE LOVING THAN MOST CHRISTIANS I'VE MET. THEY TAKE PEOPLE AS THEY WERE MADE...AND DON'T JUDGE THEM FOR THEIR DIFFERENCES
Matt 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Inwardly they are ravening wolves. You cannot see that which is inward, only God can see that.AH...BUT WE CAN RICK. HE HAS GIVEN US HIS HEART OF LOVE...AND THE COMFORTER TO RE-TEACH US HIS CHARACTER AND NATURE. IF I SEE SOMEONE JUDGING ANOTHER FOR THE WAY THEY WERE MADE, I KNOW THAT THEY STILL HAVE CARNAL MINDSETS THAT HAVEN'T BEEN REVEALED AND AS A RESULT, THEY ARE "SICK AND DYING" FOR NOT DISCERNING THE BODY OF CHRIST IN ALL MANKIND. But He has given us a way to know.

LET ME PUT THIS ANOTHER WAY. THE EARTH WAS CURSED FOR ADAM'S SAKE. IT , IN ESSENCE, BECAME ADAM'S KINSMAN REDEEMER UNTIL JESUS CAME. THE GROUND NO LONGER BROUGHT FORTH ABUNDANTLY IN SEASON, WITHOUT TILLING IT WITH THE SWEAT OF THE BROW. IT SUFFERED BLIGHT, PESTILENCE ETC. MAN NOW HAD TO KILL ANIMALS TO EAT, RATHER THAN NAME AND TAME THEM. MAN BECAME SUBJECT TO DISEASE, DEATH. WOULD YOU TELL A PERSON, SUCH AS MY GRANDSON, THAT HE SINNED BECAUSE HE WAS BORN THAT WAY? THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE DOING HERE. AGAIN..THE ONLY REASON THAT HOMOSEXUALITY (SPIRITUAL HOMOSEXUALITY) WAS AN ABOMINATION, WAS BECAUSE IT PRODUCED NO LIFE...JUST AS WE DECAY AND DIE...WHICH IS ALSO CONTRARY TO GOD'S PERFECT WILL. SIN DOES NOT HAVE A MORAL CONNOTATION. IT SIMPLY MEANS "MISSING THE MARK" OF WHAT WAS INTENDED. WE'VE PUT THE MORAL CONNOTATION'S ON IT...WHICH HAS DESTROYED MANY LIVES. THE ONLY COMMANDMENT IS THAT WE LOVE OUR NEIGHBOUR, AS GOD HAS AND DOES LOVE US.

Matt 7:16
Ye shall know them by their fruits (deeds, works, spoken words). Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? YES...THAT VERSE IS POWERFUL...BUT THE THORNS ARE CARNAL MINDSETS...VAIN (DEAD) IMAGINATIONS THAT PRODUCE NO FRUIT. THEY ARE GIVEN...AS PAUL'S THORN (SENT BY GOD VIA A MESSENGER OF SATAN...AS HE SENT THE EVIL SPIRIT TO SAUL...TO BUFFET THE CARNAL MIND. THE WORD BUFFET HAS THE CONNOTATION OF A FIST.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.IT CERTAINLY DOES. THE SERPENTS CURSE WAS TO CRAWL ON IT'S BELLY (CATER TO THE DESIRES OF THE STOMACH OR CARNAL WILL OF MAN TO EAT UNCLEAN FOOD. (VAIN IMAGINATIONS...LIES) AND...TO "EAT THE DUST". ADAM WAS FORMED FROM THE DUST OF THE EARTH. IT WAS GLORIFIED DUST WHEN HE WAS FORMED...BUT JUST DUST OF THE CARNAL MINDSETS, AT THE FALL. (James 1:15)

This is the same death that Adam and Eve experienced *instantly* when they sinned.

All the best,ALL THE BEST TO YOU TOO, RICK
Rick

Rose
12-12-2011, 05:53 PM
Still? When did I not have this belief?



I did not say 'homosexual feelings'. You classify a temptation now as demon-possessed. It may surely come from an unclean spirit but I did not call "feelings", possession.


We have God's Word and the word and experience of many, many former homosexuals who have been delivered from that unclean and perverted spirit.

Are you picking at nits or what? You did say that homosexuals were delivered from unclean, and perverted spirits.


You are taking liberties, aren't you? I don't believe all mentally ill people are demon possessed.

Again, you have said that some mentally ill people are demon possessed.





They can live with anyone they want or anyway they want. The same freedom that God gives them, I give them. But, I don't have to adopt their beliefs, do I? Will they give me the freedom to believe what I want to believe. I certainly give them the freedom to live anyway they want.

No one said you needed to adopt their beliefs, but you still seem to feel that homosexuals are in need of deliverance.



Yes, I agree. It is stupid to masquerade as a Christian if you are not one. No one can live the Christian life or understand and believe and embrace God's point of view if they do not have the Spirit of God. It is impossible to live this life because it takes the life of Jesus in one, to walk in the Spirit and crucify the flesh. Those who try living this life in their own strength, always end up "falling away" and then accusing of God of not being real or worse still, being disinterested and detached.



All the best to you,
Rick

Live and let live!!

Do you think a practicing homosexual can be a Christian?

All the best,
Rose

jce
12-12-2011, 07:57 PM
Do you think a practicing homosexual can be a Christian?

All the best,
Rose

Lets go to the extreme. Imagine the following behavior patterns practiced on a daily basis by a group of persons claiming to have converted to Christianity:

Murder
Child molesting
Drunken riotous actions
Adultery
Lying and deceiving
Thievery
Sorcerery
Sex with animals

Wouldn't your first question to such a group of professing christians be... converted from what to what?

Perhaps we have adopted a new age definition of that old outdated offensive word... "Repent".

John

kathryn
12-12-2011, 08:05 PM
Lets go to the extreme. Imagine the following behavior patterns practiced on a daily basis by a group of persons claiming to have converted to Christianity:

Murder
Child molesting
Drunken riotous actions
Adultery
Lying and deceiving
Thievery
Sorcerery
Sex with animals

Wouldn't your first question to such a group of professing christians be... converted from what to what?

Perhaps we have adopted a new age definition of that old outdated offensive word... "Repent".

John

How are you relating these to homosexuality John? I didn't mean to imply that thievery meant just mind-sets. Again, we are to love our neighbour as God loves us, (and as we love ourselves). Certainly anything that goes against this commandment is wrong. What I am saying, is that the typology in scripture is all about the heart/mind...spirit and soul, NOT the physical flesh we were born into. And...a baby is NOT born sinful. So....please answer this question, if you can't see the concept in spiritual homosexuality. What do you do with all of this, with a transgender person....with both male and female attributes?

CWH
12-12-2011, 08:18 PM
Lets go to the extreme. Imagine the following behavior patterns practiced on a daily basis by a group of persons claiming to have converted to Christianity:

Murder
Child molesting
Drunken riotous actions
Adultery
Lying and deceiving
Thievery
Sorcerery
Sex with animals

Wouldn't your first question to such a group of professing christians be... converted from what to what?

Perhaps we have adopted a new age definition of that old outdated offensive word... "Repent".

John

Are and were non-Christians any better?..... Killing millions of innocent souls and:

Murder
Child molesting
Drunken riotous actions
Adultery
Lying and deceiving
Thievery
Sorcerery
Sex with animals

I agree with you that Repent is the word....it got salvation, it got meaning (in life).


Repent and God will forgive. :pray:

Charisma
12-13-2011, 06:28 PM
Hi Kathryn,

(This post was submitted accidentally before completion. Please check you've read the final version. I'm sorry it's taken a while to arrive.)


No Charisma...this is wrong. There is no easy way round this, because we are not going to agree, but I still feel the need to defend the word of God publicly because God has not changed His truth about homosexuality, as I showed from Romans and Corinthians.

In the OT there was no merciful solution. From the moment it became known that a person was considering idolatry (worshipping other gods), even their spouse was to reveal it, and throw the first stone at their execution. (Deu 13). You may hate that this is 'in the Law', but unless you 'get' the relationship between idolatry and the practice of this abomination (homosexual behaviour) it sounds as if your carnal mind-set is to trust this world's wisdom rather than God's. I'm surprised that you would consider even for an instant, that putting God's word second to the word of fallen men would be acceptable to Him.


Science is now proving this...Really, this cannot be true, since the so-called scientists are not taking spiritual truth into their equations. They have no other explanation than to make up 'something' for what they cannot understand, and, for what they cannot actually cure. And this is compounded by the numbers of afflicted souls who work in these professions, who are driven and dominated by an unbearable and uncontrollable pattern of desire that it seems (and indeed it is) impossible to be free from, apart from the power in the name of Jesus Christ.

The urges produced by these spirits are diabolically opposed to the image of God as it should appear in all its fulness in both males and females. It is a weak response by the Church, which fails to promote the necessity to overcome in all forms of sexual sin, as laid out in the New Testament.


and how would you explain someone with both male and female hormones and genetalia. Well, first of all, everyone has both male and female hormones. Normally, in a healthy male or female, the male or female hormones dominate the development and function of the genitalia of the same order.

The reason for doing hormonal studies when a child is born with confused (malformed) genitalia, is to obtain direction as to what God originally may have intended the child to 'be' - male or female - so that the child's natural inclination can be supported. This is not homosexuality. This is hermaphrodism - a not-very-clever term for the physical condition in which a quick glance cannot confirm which the child 'is'.

Regarding men with elevated levels of female hormones, and women with elevated levels of male hormones, these are partly the result of yielding to the overwhelming power of an unclean spirit which has taken over major control of the most profound (in the medical sense) part of a person's identity. The person themself then begins to co-operate with the spirit, for the sake of an uneasy peace with it. All that this does is fuel the conflict, until the person's real identity as it could be in Jesus Christ, is slowly suffocated and distorted further away from the image of God in them.

(There may be conditions or side effects of treatment for other conditions, which have side effects on hormones, but this would not produce the same spiritual issues as those who deliberately and consciously engender in themselves or in others, a culture which is contrary to God's nature. God wants to see His image in man being promoted.)

The very fact that, thankfully, the majority of men are heterosexual, and the majority of women still are heterosexual, (leading to natural fruit bearing in humans) indicates to us that God intended the secondary sex hormones to play a significant role in directing the physiological responses of males and females. When this is reversed by spiritual opposition to a person's spirit and soul (directed through the person's body), the power of the spirit is great... (More could be said about the various ways a person becomes vulnerable to such spirits, but it wouldn't alter the fact of the existence of such evil spirits)

Jesus Christ can deliver a person who is willing to be delivered from that (complex of) unclean spirits, and the blood of Jesus can wash that soul clean; the compassion of Jesus can heal the wounded spirit, and restore that soul to wholeness (sozo), just as He demonstrated on earth, and many ex-homosexuals can testify.

I mention 'complex of unclean spirits', because of the list of unnatural attributes Paul identifies at the end of Romans 1. Remember there were no chapter divisions originally, so Paul was moving towards the goodness of God leading to repentance - even for those who ought to be punished by death for their wickedness - for those who had incurred the effects of holding the truth in unrighteousness. Note also, that he was talking to Jews as well as Gentiles when he referred to the idolatries associated (and more fully described in Leviticus 18).


Again...you aren't reading this in context. The Abomination is the "trading the Truth for a lie....refusing to see God's CHARACTER and nature in His creation. 'Abomination' is what God calls a direct attack on His Person, His Holiness, His Nature, His Truth, His purity.

Trading the truth for a lie is what leads to abominations. It's not the other way round. God has defined abominations in the Old Testament. They share common ground in idolatry and sinful practices. We have no authority to erode His definitions of sins.

I am not 'refusing to see God's character in nature and His creation'. In fact, there is a good deal about His character already in this post. He is oozing with Health and wholeness for the soul, and most people stay unhealed by choice - their choice, not God's.

His 'nature' was, once upon a time, perfectly (in both the sense of without flaw, and completely) revealed in man made in His image - male and female. When the man chose to obey the lie that he would not die by partaking of the fruit, he opened himself up to the working of a spiritual law - that he would die. It is to God's credit that His 'character' is shown forth in His keeping His word to Adam.

It is also of God's 'character' that in His mercy, Adam and his wife didn't fall to the ground dead and childless the very next instant. Instead, God made an arrangement satisfactory to Himself, which enabled Him to prolong 'Adam's' days on the earth, until the Seed promised to Eve was in view in David - the Beloved.

Charisma
12-15-2011, 10:11 AM
Dear Kathryn,

When I replied the last time, I had not seen your reply to me on p7 of this thread.

It is clear we are approaching what God has said in the Bible, differently, but as God is unchanging, and I find no conflict between what He's said in the OT and the NT, with regard to His intention that all people should cease from sin, I ask you to look more carefully at the power of the cross when it's embraced by a person who wants to be like Jesus.

In my reply, I quoted Jesus' reference to the Holy Spirit explaining things which had not yet been revealed. This cannot be made to refer to His attitude to idolatry, since Paul repeatedly refers to idolatry in his epistles, and clearly speaks against homosexual behaviour in Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6 as I quoted. You asked, and stated:
Hi Charisma...was there something in the above quote you were specifically pointing out..or was it for your comment below? The Comforter came to teach us the Rhema...in the Word made Flesh. This isn't just speaking of Jesus....it is the Word made Flesh in ALL of Creation. Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world and Christ is "in and through" ALL things. Our problem is in interpreting the written word with our carnal understanding. Have you ever had a Rhema word that God is judging homosexuality in the physical flesh of man? No where in scripture does it describe this. It is only describing the carnal heart/mind of man that is desperately wicked. I'm not disputing that the carnal mind is an issue, but it's an issue for Christians, not for non-Christians whose spiritual mind is 'spoken' and 'demonstrated' to us by their behaviour (acts), as Rick pointed out. Paul put it this way: Ephesians 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

I would call 'dead' a judgement upon a person's 'flesh'. It is not merely a spiritual death for which Jesus died. Even before He died - as He mentioned to Martha - He is the Resurrection and the Life, and He gave His disciples power to raise the dead, prior to the cross. Sin kills people. It's not a metaphor for death, it IS death. This IS 'God's judgement' in the flesh of people. This is the 'death' which entered the world through Adam's sin, as Paul states in Romans 5:12.

So, back to (KJV) Leviticus 18:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God. 3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.

4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I [am] the LORD your God. 5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I [am] the LORD.

6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover [their] nakedness: I [am] the LORD. {near...: Heb. remainder of his flesh} 7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it [is] thy father's nakedness. 9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, [whether she be] born at home, or born abroad, [even] their nakedness thou shalt not uncover. 10 The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, [even] their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs [is] thine own nakedness. 11 The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she [is] thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she [is] thy father's near kinswoman. 13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she [is] thy mother's near kinswoman. 14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she [is] thine aunt. 15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she [is] thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it [is] thy brother's nakedness. 17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; [for] they [are] her near kinswomen: it [is] wickedness. 18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex [her], to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life [time]. {a wife...: or, one wife to another} 19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness. 20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her. 21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through [the fire] to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I [am] the LORD. {Molech: Gr. Moloch} 22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination. 23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it [is] confusion. I believe that this kind of 'confusion' is not merely mental, but physically promoted by the unclean spirits involved in stimulating men and women to behave in these ways.

I'm not saying that every person [I]desires to comply, but, the compliance with idolatry opens them spiritually to be disturbed both in mind and body by the uncleanness to which they have become subject.

24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. 26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit [any] of these abominations; [neither] any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which [were] before you, and the land is defiled; ) 28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that [were] before you. 29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit [them] shall be cut off from among their people.

30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that [ye] commit not [any one] of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I [am] the LORD your God.

Honesly, Kathryn, if this command by God to His people seems nebulous to you, believe me, the people against whom these abominations are committed, are not merely struggling with a mentality afterwards. They are physically debilitated, although they themselves may not recognise it, because they have no 'life' with which to compare it. They need not only deliverance, but healing. Homosexual victims who don't find Christ as their Saviour don't do nearly as well as those who do. That outcome for them is God's judgement in action, in their lifetime. This applies to the perpetrators of homosexual assault as well, of course, but many of them will have started out as victims, before taking the aggressive role As a Christian, I cannot agree that any homosexual impulse is an okay behaviour, as it is is outworked as a direct attack upon the image of God in males.

Paul makes clear in Corinthians that no-one bowing to homosexual impulses, will inherit the kingdom of God, and that a better spiritual outcome is possible for them, in Christ, if they keep abiding in Him.

I will add a reply to the second part of your post, in a new post.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-15-2011, 10:29 AM
So...by judging others in this manner, we are bringing judgement upon ourselves. We are all ONE...ALL of Mankind, in various stages of the birthing of the ONE Man...the Christ who is 'IN AND THROUGH" all things....and therefore cursing our own body, until we can properly judge or "discern" the Christ in each one of us.


:thumb: :clap2: :signthankspin: :congrats: :tea: :hippie: :talk008:
:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

Richard Amiel McGough
12-15-2011, 10:37 AM
A person born homosexual or transgender (with both male and female hormones and genetalia) are NOT abominations. They are beloved Children of God, of whom He died to save ALL mankind!

What evil has been perpetrated on young men and women...many of them brutally murdered for the way God Himself created them, because of this perversion of satan! It MUST be cast down!
Glory, sistah! You preach it girl! :prophet:

Charisma
12-15-2011, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by Charisma
Regarding the effect of 'now you are clean through the word that I have spoken unto you' which Jesus said in John 15:3, Paul puts the same truth this way to ex-homosexuals in 1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind I explained what the fornicators were. Who is the Harlot in type? It is the FEMININE carnal mind/soul that co-habits with the UNcircumcised High Priest that sits on the "throne" on her mind; again, the UNcircumcised heart. Rahab was a harlot, until she understood the Nature and Power of the God of Israel who brought them into the Promised Land. For that, she and her household were taken out of Jericho (moon..carnal mind) before it was destroyed. She is in Jesus' lineage. 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, Have a look in Isaiah 28 again...and see this described. The thief is the Father of Lies who steals our TRUE identity etc. shall inherit the kingdom of God[/B]. 11 And such were some of you: [B]but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God Again...washed or purified of the carnal mindsets. Nothing to do with the physical flesh.

This is what the Bible teaches. It is easy to follow if the steps which should precede, have been followed in their most appropriate order for the individual. I am not putting God in a box.oh...but you are!As well as a great percentage of His beloved people God has declared His own limitations, and intolerance of homosexual behaviour in His kingdom, is one we have to take as read.no...as given in Rhema...that interprets His Heart...not the written Logos. Again...it was given as a curse. You will have to reconcile this , before you can understand this.

(Please also note that 'fornication' mentioned 14 times in the Greek NT covers every kind of sexual perversion including those committed by marriage partners with each other; and, homosexual acts whether committed by a member of a heterosexual union with someone from outside the marriage, or, by a homosexual liaison.)yes...because just as physical intercourse was given as a physical type of the Spiritual relationship and the MYSTERY of Christ and His church...homosexuality...uncircumcised heart/spirit/male co-habiting with uncircumcised heart/spirit..carnal soul/mind (feminine) with carnal/soul/feminine. THIS is the earthy type given, for the HEAVENLY PATTERN IN THE TEMPLE/TABERNACLE. Hi Kathrine,

Again, from your comments, it's easy to see that we are looking at homosexual practice from two different points of view. You are looking at it as if the people for whom Christ died who are engaged in it, are colateral damage. You seem to have no heart for their souls, their pain, their confusion, their humiliation, the disruption they have experienced to the normal healthy function of their whole beings, as the crown of God's creation made in His own image. It is with their deliverance in mind, which for each person is unique, that I said 'It is easy to follow if the steps which should precede, have been followed in their most appropriate order for the individual. I am not putting God in a box.'

Rather, I am holding out for the faith which was once delivered to the saints, where not only Paul, but John and Peter make clear that victory over sin is mandatory for Christians, and not expected for non-Christians. This is why Peter is so grieved here: 2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, [as] they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots [they are] and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

I looked at Isaiah 28 as you requested, and didn't see the deduction you made. Regarding your comment in reply to mine about God's intolerance of sin in His kingdom - 'no...as given in Rhema...that interprets His Heart...not the written Logos. Again...it was given as a curse. You will have to reconcile this , before you can understand this' - I have no idea how you can suggest that 'the written Logos' is somehow at variance with the Rhema. It is you who seem to be suggesting (if I am understanding your drift), that God's attitude to sin has changed. On what basis can you make this claim? Nothing which you've written in your replies directs me to the point in history when sin became acceptable to Him. It is such an important matter, I would expect you to have a minimum of three places in the New Testament which backed up your claim.

(I'm not sure if you've provided scripture in reply to an earlier request for some (perhaps not in this thread), but if you did reply with scripture somewhere, and you can remember which thread and post number, I'd be grateful for a PM to direct me.)

Regarding 'Again...washed or purified of the carnal mindsets. Nothing to do with the physical flesh', again this does not fit the NT declaration. I've already quoted John 15:3, which didn't impress you. (I know what Paul said in Romans 7.) So, here is more scripture which accords with my assertion that part of salvation (sozo) is to have a body (flesh) functioning in health, free from unclean spirits, free from carnality.

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Ephesians 5:as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Romans 6:3 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Those verses bring to light a most important part of the gospel.

Remember, Paul complained to the Corinthians that they were still 'carnal'. One infers that not all Christians remain 'carnal', and had the Corinthians not been stuck in carnality, Paul's message to them would have been different - perhaps like what he wrote here? Romans 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

Lastly, I don't hold with the 'dual nature' doctrine you seem to have received. You seem to justify sin, rather than calling for repentance from sin. If I've got this wrong, I apologise. Of course, we do not put on immortality and incorruption until after we have died, however, I see no lack in the salvation Christ wrought for us on the cross, by which He expects us to show ourselves fit for life after death, and most certainly, those whose hearts are not intent upon knowing the Lord, are unlikely to have qualified themselves through obedience by that time.

It's possible we are saying the same thing in different ways. I'd like to think so.

Edited to add scripture.

RAM said

Originally Posted by kathryn
A person born homosexual or transgender (with both male and female hormones and genetalia) are NOT abominations. They are beloved Children of God, of whom He died to save ALL mankind!

What evil has been perpetrated on young men and women...many of them brutally murdered for the way God Himself created them, because of this perversion of satan! It MUST be cast down!

Glory, sistah! You preach it girl!I have not said that a person who practises homosexuality is an abomination. Neither does God say that. But I have stated that no-one is 'born a homosexual' and I stand by that. The perversions come as a result of vulnerability to, and falling to, very powerful spiritual attacks by demons (as well as attacks by men or women who are acting in concert with demons), and it is these spirits which bring gender confusion. No-one is 'born' with gender confusion.

Rose
12-15-2011, 01:45 PM
I have not said that a person who practises homosexuality is an abomination. Neither does God say that. But I have stated that no-one is 'born a homosexual' and I stand by that. The perversions come as a result of vulnerability to, and falling to, very powerful spiritual attacks by demons (as well as attacks by men or women who are acting in concert with demons), and it is these spirits which bring gender confusion. No-one is 'born' with gender confusion.

Hi Charisma,

I just wanted to address the one point you made that "no-one is born a homosexual, or with gender confusion". I think you are absolutely wrong in that position and here is why. If a person is born a hermaphrodite (with both male and female genitalia), what gender are they? The same holds true for those born with homosexual feelings (which don't usually manifest until puberty when the sex hormones are at their height), they are born that way.

With that in mind, why do you think that someone who has gender confusion, or is attracted to the same sex has somehow brought these feeling upon themselves? No one consciously tries to feel like a male or a female, it just happens, we are born that way. How would a woman even know what it's like to feel like a man, or visa/versa without experiencing those feelings innately within their own bodies. Heterosexuals don't make themselves feel attracted to the opposite sex anymore than homosexuals make themselves feel attracted to the same sex. It has nothing to do with demonic attacks, that is a lie propagated by those who are deceived, and has made the lives of many homosexuals a living hell.

All the best,
Rose

Charisma
12-15-2011, 03:55 PM
Hi Rose,


Hi Charisma,

I just wanted to address the one point you made that "no-one is born a homosexual, or with gender confusion". I think you are absolutely wrong in that position and here is why. If a person is born a hermaphrodite (with both male and female genitalia), what gender are they? The same holds true for those born with homosexual feelings (which don't usually manifest until puberty when the sex hormones are at their height), they are born that way.

With that in mind, why do you think that someone who has gender confusion, or is attracted to the same sex has somehow brought these feeling upon themselves? No one consciously tries to feel like a male or a female, it just happens, we are born that way. How would a woman even know what it's like to feel like a man, or visa/versa without experiencing those feelings innately within their own bodies. Heterosexuals don't make themselves feel attracted to the opposite sex anymore than homosexuals make themselves feel attracted to the same sex. It has nothing to do with demonic attacks, that is a lie propagated by those who are deceived, and has made the lives of many homosexuals a living hell.

All the best,
Rose I've already addressed your questions in my replies to Kathryn.

Hermaphrodism is not necessarily clearly both kinds of genitalia and it is a physical deformity which creates confusion for the parents, but the child itself with have chromosomes and hormones which indicate the intended gender.

Note, gender is not about genitalia, it's about cultivation. That's why an unclean spirit is almost essential in cultivating a feminine culture in a male body, or, a masculine culture in a female body. How a person arrives at actually calling themselves homosexual varies considerably from person to person, and of course, parental influence, negligence and culture, will play into the child's development. Just as an adult male (parent or not) sexually molesting a boy, is a homosexual encounter, so an adult woman (parent or not) molesting a girl, is a homosexual encounter.

It very much depends which role the child is expect to take, and whether the child experiences pain or fear or unconsicousness or not, (also taking into account the age of the child and the number of molestations), and how the personality of the child deals with the threats to, and violations of its integrity, whether it will a) survive, b) reject homosexuality, or c) embrace homosexuality. After all this, the person (imho) is not a homosexual, but a sinner who needs to hear of the grace of God in Jesus Christ to free from bondage, release from evil spirits, heal from all harm and, by the Holy Spirit, renew the person's mind, restoring their whole being to normality. Satan, the author of all violations to God's image in man, is absolutely delighted with any culture which gives him free reign to destroy as many souls as possible - this being only one method to create internal raging conflict in a person's life, compounding their misery and unfruitfulness in God's kingdom.

Rose - 'It has nothing to do with demonic attacks, that is a lie propagated by those who are deceived, and has made the lives of many homosexuals a living hell', what makes their lives a living hell, is the lack of faithfulness to truth in so-called Christians, who themselves do not have victory over the sin in their own lives, because they doubt the power of Jesus Christ - or have never heard it preached - to be their All-Sufficiency for every need of whatever kind, most particularly in bringing them victory over sin.

Disbelieving in demons and Satan is the lie on which all other lies are constructed. The only way to destroy lies, is with the Truth. The innate pride of man resists humility as if it's the worst possible outcome, but the Bible shows us time and again that those who walked with God understood His greatness and love, and responded to these situations with child-like honesty about their sense of inadequacy. He frequently allowed them to arrive in situations where they had to rely on Him for their salvation. That was His LOVE at work, rewarding them for their right attitude towards Him.

Rose
12-15-2011, 06:16 PM
Hi Rose,

I've already addressed your questions in my replies to Kathryn.

Hermaphrodism is not necessarily clearly both kinds of genitalia and it is a physical deformity which creates confusion for the parents, but the child itself with have chromosomes and hormones which indicate the intended gender.

Note, gender is not about genitalia, it's about cultivation. That's why an unclean spirit is almost essential in cultivating a feminine culture in a male body, or, a masculine culture in a female body. How a person arrives at actually calling themselves homosexual varies considerably from person to person, and of course, parental influence, negligence and culture, will play into the child's development. Just as an adult male (parent or not) sexually molesting a boy, is a homosexual encounter, so an adult woman (parent or not) molesting a girl, is a homosexual encounter.

It very much depends which role the child is expect to take, and whether the child experiences pain or fear or unconsicousness or not, (also taking into account the age of the child and the number of molestations), and how the personality of the child deals with the threats to, and violations of its integrity, whether it will a) survive, b) reject homosexuality, or c) embrace homosexuality. After all this, the person (imho) is not a homosexual, but a sinner who needs to hear of the grace of God in Jesus Christ to free from bondage, release from evil spirits, heal from all harm and, by the Holy Spirit, renew the person's mind, restoring their whole being to normality. Satan, the author of all violations to God's image in man, is absolutely delighted with any culture which gives him free reign to destroy as many souls as possible - this being only one method to create internal raging conflict in a person's life, compounding their misery and unfruitfulness in God's kingdom.

Hi Charisma,

There is nothing unclean about feminine characteristics in a male, or masculine characteristics in a female. To varying degrees men have the feminine anima, and women have the masculine animus. In some people their anima/animus might be much stronger, hence they relate to and exhibit that characteristic more. From all the studies I've read, molestation does not cause homosexuality, neither does parental influence though it might wake up those tendencies in some victims.

I differ very strongly with your idea of homosexuals being sinners who are in need of deliverance from evil spirits. They are just human beings like you and I who want to find a partner of their choice to share their lives with. Why would you classify someone as a sinner who had no choice in the way they were born, or the sexual attractions they feel?




Rose - 'It has nothing to do with demonic attacks, that is a lie propagated by those who are deceived, and has made the lives of many homosexuals a living hell', what makes their lives a living hell, is the lack of faithfulness to truth in so-called Christians, who themselves do not have victory over the sin in their own lives, because they doubt the power of Jesus Christ - or have never heard it preached - to be their All-Sufficiency for every need of whatever kind, most particularly in bringing them victory over sin.

Disbelieving in demons and Satan is the lie on which all other lies are constructed. The only way to destroy lies, is with the Truth. The innate pride of man resists humility as if it's the worst possible outcome, but the Bible shows us time and again that those who walked with God understood His greatness and love, and responded to these situations with child-like honesty about their sense of inadequacy. He frequently allowed them to arrive in situations where they had to rely on Him for their salvation. That was His LOVE at work, rewarding them for their right attitude towards Him.

No, what makes a homosexual's life miserable is being labeled a sinner in need of deliverance from evil spirits they don't think they have. All they want is to be given the same freedom to live their lives in the manner that heterosexuals live theirs...not be harassed by people (Christians especially) and made to feel like an unclean person.

You are absolutely right! The only way to destroy lies is with Truth, and the lie that there is a spiritual being called Satan and demons who possess people is going down in flames...:lol:

All the best,
Rose

kathryn
12-15-2011, 07:57 PM
Hi Kathrine,

Again, from your comments, it's easy to see that we are looking at homosexual practice from two different points of view. You are looking at it as if the people for whom Christ died who are engaged in it, are colateral damage. You seem to have no heart for their souls, their pain, their confusion, their humiliation, the disruption they have experienced to the normal healthy function of their whole beings, as the crown of God's creation made in His own image. Hi Charisma...I think once we've had a chance to discuss this in more detail, you will see this isn't my heart. I don't look at my Grandson this way. I love him with all of my heart. The Lord knit him together in the womb , just as He did all of us and while we may see it as a terrible disability from our limited perspective, God created him this way for His Glory. (as He did the man who lame from birth at the Gate Beautiful. We are ALL that lame man.) Whether we see it yet or not, we have ALL been healed "by His stripes, from the foundation of the World. In going through this trial with my grandson, and because I know His purposes for ALL mankind are ALL good, I was able to not only hear His plans and purpose for my grandson, He was able to teach me many of the hidden Truth in His process of redemption. The homosexuals I know express no pain or humiliation or disruption except that which has been inflicted upon them by those who see them as aberrations to God's will. The only thing we need deliverance from is carnal mindsets that prevent us from seeing God's True Nature (and OURS).

which for each person is unique, that I said 'It is easy to follow if the steps which should precede, have been followed in their most appropriate order for the individual. I am not putting God in a box.'

Rather, I am holding out for the faith which was once delivered to the saints, where not only Paul, but John and Peter make clear that victory over sin is mandatory for Christians, and not expected for non-Christians. This is why Peter is so grieved here: 2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed

,Again...we must get back to the Word made Flesh in creation Charisma and let it witness to us first to the character and purposes of God as it was always intended. There are many given in scripture. The witness to the Father's heart is given by example of the heart of the earthy parents. He said...'if WE know how to give good gifts to our children...HOW MUCH MORE WILL HE'. Jesus also said that we were to become as a child to enter the Kingdom. Let me give you an example I gave Rick. Say you were a 6 year old who knew beyond a doubt that his parents loved him unconditionally. Being 6, you would be familiar with discipline....and know that the ONLY reason that your parents disciplined you, was for the purpose of RESTORATION...never punishment for punishment sake. You would never fear discipline for this reason. Now..if someone tried to tell you otherwise...would you believe them? No..you wouldn't...because you KNOW them, and their heart towards you. If you were born homosexual, or with both male and female attributes....would you think your parents were capable of refering to you as a "brute beast made to be taken and destroyed?" Nope! This has NOTHING to do with the physical flesh of mankind. It is ALL about the carnal mindsets that cause us to put conditions on God's love and separate His children into saints or beasts, depending on how He knit them together in the womb.

speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Yes...they are sick and dying because they do not discern the BODY OF CHRIST or RE-MEM-BER Him (as ONE)

13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, [as] they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots [they are] and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; [/B] 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children

I looked at Isaiah 28 as you requested, and didn't see the deduction you made. [B]Rick was having problems with this too. I will link to my answer and edit it in when I finish this. It might be an idea to just take one or two things at a time, so the posts aren't so long. I normally don't mind, but with the holidays coming, things are a little hectic at the momemtn Regarding your comment in reply to mine about God's intolerance of sin in His kingdom - 'no...as given in Rhema...that interprets His Heart...not the written Logos. Again...it was given as a curse. You will have to reconcile this , before you can understand this' - I have no idea how you can suggest that 'the written Logos' is somehow at variance with the Rhema. It is you who seem to be suggesting (if I am understanding your drift), that God's attitude to sin has changed. On what basis can you make this claim? Nothing which you've written in your replies directs me to the point in history when sin became acceptable to Him. It is such an important matter, I would expect you to have a minimum of three places in the New Testament which backed up your claim.I think I understand His attitude towards sin. ALL sin is reckoned as debt in Scripture...and He paid the full price for it at the Cross. (before the foundation of the World) He set man up to fall into the "pit", because we had to develop a conscious mind as part of the process of becoming co-creators with Him, walking in the full Mind of Christ. However, He bound Himself to His Law, which states that because of this, He is liable to redeem ALL of mankind. Jesus fulfilled that Law...so it only concerns Him in as far as it hurts us and others. He knows exactly how to discipline His children to RESTORE them. (and this is all mankind...not just christians) We are all ONE man, in the process of restoration. Some enter perfection first...as the head of the baby is birthed first...but the rest of the Body follows. Looking at it in the illustration of the harvest...it is the firstfruits of the barley, followed by the wheat and grapes.

(I'm not sure if you've provided scripture in reply to an earlier request for some (perhaps not in this thread), but if you did reply with scripture somewhere, and you can remember which thread and post number, I'd be grateful for a PM to direct me.) I don't mind providing scripture Charisma...but as creation was given as the first and intended witness of understanding His character and purposes, we must get back to using it to confirm the written word. It will always been confirmed in the written Logos...but if a doctrine cannot be confirmed in His Creation...His Word made flesh...it needs to be discarded. So...let me ask you a question. If you didn't have the written Logos...what in Creation would make you think God saw homosexuality as a sin?

Regarding 'Again...washed or purified of the carnal mindsets. Nothing to do with the physical flesh', again this does not fit the NT declaration. I've already quoted John 15:3, which didn't impress you. (I know what Paul said in Romans 7.) So, here is more scripture which accords with my assertion that part of salvation (sozo) is to have a body (flesh) functioning in health, free from unclean spirits, free from carnality.

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscienceHow do you define an evil conscience Charisma? , and our bodies washed with pure water

Ephesians 5:as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. It is our uncircumcised heart that defiles us and this overlaps with the mind. It has nothing to do with the physical flesh. A drunkard for instance..is not an alcoholic...it is someone who is intoxicated by a mixture of doctrine that has not been "rightly divided" by Truth/Rhema . Sin means "missing the mark". It has no moral connotation per see. Certainly, the effects of stinking thinking will affect the physical body...destroy it in the end...but it is the symptom, and NOT what He is concerned with primarily.

Romans 6:3 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Those verses bring to light a most important part of the gospel.

Remember, Paul complained to the Corinthians that they were still 'carnal'. One infers that not all Christians remain 'carnal', and had the Corinthians not been stuck in carnality, Paul's message to them would have been different - perhaps like what he wrote here? Romans 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

Lastly, I don't hold with the 'dual nature' doctrine you seem to have received.Do you mean the dual nature of man? Or the dual nature of the two works of Christ? You seem to justify sin, rather than calling for repentance from sin. If I've got this wrong, I apologise.No...repentance or the "changing of the mind" has been my primary focus of study. Of course, we do not put on immortality and incorruption until after we have died,I disagree. I believe there is a generation who will be be perfected without going through physical death. Or maybe you meant death to self? however, I see no lack in the salvation Christ wrought for us on the cross, by which He expects us to show ourselves fit for life after death, and most certainly, those whose hearts are not intent upon knowing the Lord, are unlikely to have qualified themselves through obedience by that time.The Lord defeated death at the Cross, healed all of mankind at the Cross...before the foundation of the World...so regardless of the state we're in when we die....we have His Word that ALL will be saved. "If I be lifted up (as the serpent/Son of God) I will draw (drag) ALL men to myself.

It's possible we are saying the same thing in different ways. I'd like to think so.if not...we'll come into Unity one of these days. I have no doubt of that. Thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me Charisma.

Edited to add scripture.

RAM said
I have not said that a person who practises homosexuality is an abomination. Neither does God say that. But I have stated that no-one is 'born a homosexual' and I stand by that. The perversions come as a result of vulnerability to, and falling to, very powerful spiritual attacks by demons (as well as attacks by men or women who are acting in concert with demons), and it is these spirits which bring gender confusion. No-one is 'born' with gender confusion.

kathryn
12-15-2011, 08:21 PM
Charisma....here is Rick's question about the "precept on precept" and my reply. I hope you don't mind the repetition, but it saves some time. :)

Originally Posted by heb13-13
Hi Kathryn,

Another thing I have a problem with is this "precept upon precept" thing from Isa 28. You cast it into a negative light and I don't see it that way.

Doesn't everyone learn anything, precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little there a little. Building blocks of education as it were.

Of course sometimes the Lord gives you revelation that explodes in your spirit and you can build up those blocks a bit faster.

And, did He not spend 3 years teaching precept upon precept to His disciples? Much of which came alive when they received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, but still, the foundation had to be laid, right?

What is negative in these statements as a way of learning from the Lord? Maybe I am using the wrong phraseology. What is not desirable about the following statements?

Isa 28:9
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Isa 28:10
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Isa 28:11
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Isa 28:12
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Thanks for all your effort,
Rick
Hi Rick....Here is the 1st verse of Chapter 28 of Isaiah, which sets the whole tone or context for why they were given to learn "precept on precept":


Isa 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!

I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of ripening in scripture. The whole process of redemption is all written in type as a "garden". Scripture demonstrates that both iniquity and righteousness must ripen. We see it in the parable of the wheat and the tares. They are planted in the garden in seed form...and when they ripen and form "heads"...the tares are removed and burned, the wheat taken into the barn.

Ephraim is a type of that two-sided coin...which is first the TWO "men" of our nature...the carnal or old man...and the New Man (Christ within us). When the "heads" of the Baker and Butler are lifted up before the Feast of Pharoah could take place (as the serpent head and the Son of God "head" are lifted up ).....The NEW MAN...the CHRIST....the HEAD is now joined to His BODY. (and the Butler...cup bearer is restored to his ORIGINAL postion. (We are ONE in Him, He in us)

Ephraim, in this account..is the "double ash heap".(fully ripened!)..who has been subjected to the "vanity of his mind" (as stated in Romans)....and his "crown of pride" (vain imaginations/carnal mind)...is now sitting on the fat "valleys" . The "valley" in type...always refers to the "low places"...It is the Valley of the shadow of death(where we learn of His rod and staff)...the Valley of our Vision (meaning of name: Gehazi..Elisha's servant who was impotent to raise the "son..or "sterile" as the dual natured donkey or mixture . This is also the mixture of the written Logos and the Rhema. Until the donkey is fully redeemed by the Lamb (has his neck broken) it is barren.) They are overcome with the wine that confuses the mind..not the NEW wine.

However.we are promised BEAUTY FOR ASHES. Ephraim is: Ephraim/Joseph...who is the DOUBLE fruitfulness...the DOUBLE ANNOINTING...the DOUBLE or TWINNED CHRIST (Headstone and Capstone, Bridegroom and Bride, Joseph and Asenath...who become ONE when the OLD head/carnal mind...has been "lifted up" and its neck (as the DUAL-natured donkey) has been "broken". (so the TRUE HEAD can be joined to the Body) They represent the ONE animal who was cut in half...with the torch or light passed between them. THIS is the primary type of the process of the OLD Covenant becoming the NEW Covenant. The "One" (the Christ(plural) must be divided(as the light was first divided FROM the darkness)...in order for the "Light" to pass through and consummate them.

Joseph was given his new name...Treasury of the Glorious rest, at the same time he was given Asenath, his signet ring and his commissioning as SECOND in command over Egypt.

Joseph/Asenath are a type of the ONE Treasury. Jesus walked in this double annointing...which IS God's power BECAUSE it is the perfected unity of the DOUBLE WITNESS..OR THE TWO WITNESSES.

They are a type of the "signet ring" of God (as Zerubbabel) They are the type of Christ in His Corporate son/daughter..or bridegroom/bride etc...who together, are commissioned to rule and reign on earth. (the restored dominion of Adam in the SECOND Adam)

Asenath's name has a double meaning...describing the TWO works of Christ and the plural nature of the Christ. It means: I (Jesus) will be hated; SHE has stored up.

BOTH Jesus and Asenath CAME UP OUT OF EGYPT. This is ALL describing the AT-ONE-MENT...which is the RE-MEM-BER-ing of the ONE....and found in the Atonement sacrifice in the Law of Leviticus, with the TWO goats. One has to die...the second has the blood of the first, applied to its HEAD....and released LIVING into the wilderness. (I have called my Son out of Egypt). These are the TWO parts of ONE sacrifice. In the Song of Songs...we see the two coming out of the wilderness...Beloved leaning on her Lover.
Last edited by kathryn; 12-13-2011 at 03:53 PM.
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Richard Amiel McGough
12-15-2011, 10:42 PM
Hi Charisma,

There is nothing unclean about feminine characteristics in a male, or masculine characteristics in a female. To varying degrees men have the feminine anima, and women have the masculine animus. In some people their anima/animus might be much stronger, hence they relate to and exhibit that characteristic more. From all the studies I've read, molestation does not cause homosexuality, neither does parental influence though it might wake up those tendencies in some victims.

I differ very strongly with your idea of homosexuals being sinners who are in need of deliverance from evil spirits. They are just human beings like you and I who want to find a partner of their choice to share their lives with. Why would you classify someone as a sinner who had no choice in the way they were born, or the sexual attractions they feel?


That's why I love you so much baby! You are kind, smart, and compassionate!

If anything concerning homosexuals were inspired by demons, it would have to be the rejection of them by otherwise kind and loving people.

A man who nutures his "feminine nature" is much stronger then men who do not. Indeed, a man without a cultured feminine nature is a sham, half a man, empty and weak and out of touch with his soul (anima). And the same could be said about women, of course.



You are absolutely right! The only way to destroy lies is with Truth, and the lie that there is a spiritual being called Satan and demons who possess people is going down in flames...:lol:

Yes. YES. YES!!! Bye-bye to the bogey man!

It's time to open our eyes to reality. Is there one shred of evidence of any "Satan?"

heb13-13
12-15-2011, 11:39 PM
Charisma,

You are absolutely right in your previous post. If one has never known the power of God's deliverance and healing in their life then the things that you mention may seem quite foreign to them.

But, those who have been delivered and healed, understand.

It is difficult to lay a foundation and explain these things when the conversation turns towards an emotional tangent.

Light and Life to all,
Rick

kathryn
12-16-2011, 02:29 AM
Richard:
It's time to open our eyes to reality. Is there one shred of evidence of any "Satan?"

Yes...there is...but this is another area that has many carnal mindsets that are blocking our understanding of true Spiritual Warfare, which is coming into agreement with the Mind of Christ. (His obedience. Obedience is referring to thoughts . ) 2 Cor. 10 says that WHEN our obedience is complete...(we have the Mind of Christ..NO mixture) THEN and only then because our Witness or Testimony has been perfected...are we able to "deal with the disobedience" of others. (teach them the Truth)

Satan is a divided spirit. Thoughts are spirit . God's thoughts are fully integrated Thoughts. They are like music and color....His Thoughts are Holy Spirit. Satan is an Evil spirit because it is divided (in disagreement) . When the Head and Body become One...ALL THINGS ARE ONE IN HIM. Everything NOT of Life...is made desolate. The witness to this in creation...is the insect petrified in a piece of Amber...the irritant in an oyster that forms the pearl. The "Evil" has been made desolate...encompassed and merged into LIFE.

Iniquity, as Righteousness...must ripen before the Harvest. The tares and the wheat must form heads before the tares (mindsets) are burnt and the wheat taken to the barn. The "legion" and the 7 that Mary had...are expressing, in type...the full ripening of iniquity. 7 is spiritual perfection and rest. The ripening of inquity in us....is the appointed time, before the harvest, to remove our tares! When they (the ones "possessed") SAW THE WORD MADE FLESH , they were delivered!

As WE begin to get back to God's FIRST and INTENDED first witness....His Creation, and re-mem-ber Him, through this witness....WE begin to grow into our authority or the restored Dominion of Earth. This is what makes the "evil spirits" flee! The evil spirits are the unclean thoughts we've been partaking of, which flow from the uncircumcised high priest or old man within us...and which defile US. We in turn, defile others until we have taken them captive to the obedience of Christ.

All things had to be divided in order for the Light to pass through our "pieces"...or Atoms(Adams) It is Glorification. It is the process of Covenant...cutting the ONE animal in half and passing the torch/Light through the two pieces. When Light and Life enter true Unity occurs...no more divided Spirit. Satan was never more or less than a tool. He is a Wizard of Oz...a toothless one, defeated before the foundation of the World.

The Battle of Midway, in the 2nd World War, was won because the U.S. was able to break the code of the enemy. The majority of the church are still watching the light show , the smoke and the mirrors and thinking he's the All Powerful Oz. Again....no matter how compassion and loving a person you are, if you still believe this, you are inadvertently demonizing others....and consequently yourself. By doing this, you are actively participating in the dividing spirit , in opposition to the Will of God who is drawing ALL men to Himself.

You must become like a child...like Dorothy, the Tin Man without an uncircumcised heart, the Lion without any boldness (meek..empty of self (thoughts)....and very definately, the Straw Man without a carnal brain.

All four of them...regardless of their age and deficiencies and differences, knew what was coming from a heart of Love and what wasn't. The little Wiz blew his cover, when he tried to violate that knowledge of Love...by frightening them with his thunder and lightening, smoke and fire.

kathryn
12-16-2011, 09:37 AM
Note in the chapter on Spiritual Warfare...it NEVER says we are to cast out demons...but the VAIN imaginations (lies). It is "Hagar the Bondwoman and Her Son"....that we are to cast OUT...the carnal mother (mind)within us, who gives birth to Ishmael...rather than the Son of Promise. Jesus learned obedience (Truth) through what he suffered; in being tempted by the written Logos in the wilderness...He had to learn to fight back with the Proceeding Word from the Throne. (subconcious mind/heart) . He was in the wilderness 3 days. This is the 3 days of the Body, learning to re-mem-ber their Head (Mind of Christ) who went before them.

kathryn
12-16-2011, 10:26 AM
How did Jesus respond to the demons (vain imaginations that give birth to DEATH)? He told them to COME out! The LIFE of the Word made FLESH....COMES and makes all things not of Life...desolate.
And the Spirit and the bride say: COME COME COME...DRINK OF THE LIVING WATERS!

kathryn
12-16-2011, 10:34 AM
Satan is a divided spirit. Thoughts are spirit . God's thoughts are fully integrated Thoughts. They are like music and color....His Thoughts are Holy Spirit. Satan is an Evil spirit because it is divided (in disagreement) . When the Head and Body become One...ALL THINGS ARE ONE IN HIM. Everything NOT of Life...is made desolate. The witness to this in creation...is the insect petrified in a piece of Amber...the irritant in an oyster that forms the pearl. The "Evil" has been made desolate...encompassed and merged into LIFE.


The HOLY Spirt is the COMFORTER...THE COMFORTING SPIRIT who is sent to dis-assemble doctrines of demons that have possessed us ...and re-mem-ber us through the Word made Flesh in His/Her Creation.

Racheal...in through the Holy Spirit in the HEART of the Earth...REFUSING TO BE COMFORTED until her children(mankind) are delivered out of CAPTIVITY!

kathryn
12-16-2011, 11:06 AM
ote in the chapter on Spiritual Warfare...it NEVER says we are to cast out demons...but the VAIN imaginations (lies). It is "Hagar the Bondwoman and Her Son"....that we are to cast OUT...the carnal mother (mind)within us, who gives birth to Ishmael...rather than the Son of Promise. Jesus learned obedience (Truth) through what he suffered; in being tempted by the written Logos in the wilderness...He had to learn to fight back with the Proceeding Word from the Throne. (subconcious mind/heart) . He was in the wilderness 3 days. This is the 3 days of the Body, learning to re-mem-ber their Head (Mind of Christ) who went before them.

And WHO was the Son of PromisE? Isaac...HE SHALL LAUGH!!!

The carnal church(or City) has become a humorless, sterile and prideful OLD Whore...fully ripened in inquity(the "heads" of the tares). A dead AND VERY DRY Christmas tree...with baubles and tinsel, and no gifts of Life or pleasure under her skirts.

COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE!

kathryn
12-16-2011, 11:37 AM
WHY were we created from the soil or heart of the Earth? FOR HIS GOOD PLEASURE!...which is OURS, as ONE.

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

heb13-13
12-16-2011, 10:35 PM
Satan is a divided spirit. Thoughts are spirit . God's thoughts are fully integrated Thoughts. They are like music and color....His Thoughts are Holy Spirit. Satan is an Evil spirit because it is divided (in disagreement) . When the Head and Body become One...ALL THINGS ARE ONE IN HIM. Everything NOT of Life...is made desolate. The witness to this in creation...is the insect petrified in a piece of Amber...the irritant in an oyster that forms the pearl. The "Evil" has been made desolate...encompassed and merged into LIFE.


The HOLY Spirt is the COMFORTER...THE COMFORTING SPIRIT who is sent to dis-assemble doctrines of demons that have possessed us ...and re-mem-ber us through the Word made Flesh in His/Her Creation.

Racheal...in through the Holy Spirit in the HEART of the Earth...REFUSING TO BE COMFORTED until her children(mankind) are delivered out of CAPTIVITY!

Hi Kathryn,

I have a question for you. Do all the thoughts that come into your mind, originate only from you (or the Holy Spirit)?

Do you believe that you can command thoughts to come out of people. That you can "pull down" thoughts on behalf of others. Is this what you consider "casting out of demonic spirits"? The reason I ask is because you said, "spirits are thoughts".

Thank you,
Rick

kathryn
12-16-2011, 11:39 PM
Hi Kathryn,

I have a question for you. Do all the thoughts that come into your mind, originate only from you (or the Holy Spirit)?

Hi Rick...when we first begin the process of casting down the vain imaginations, we are still thinking primarily from the soul and it takes the Holy Spirit time to reveal them. Many are obvious...many are so familiar it takes much longer. As we gradually learn God's voice and come to know His character, our thinking becomes more and more in agreement with His. As we learn to hear His voice speaking to us , in and through all things (as His Word made Flesh) the Proceeding Word becomes much more in focus.

Do you believe that you can command thoughts to come out of people.The only thing you can replace a Lie with...is the Truth. Our thoughts, ARE spirit...we are a conduit for them...and the spirit/thoughts attach themselves to concepts/imaginations we have formed through our deductive/conscious reasoning. When we pull down the last of them, (by the Holy Spirit)...the spirits/thoughts leave...because the imagination is gone , which they were hiding behind. When you receive Revelation Rick, as you know...whatever understanding you formerly had, is gone That you can "pull down" thoughts on behalf of others.Only by replacing it with Truth...God's intergrated TWO edged sword . Is this what you consider "casting out of demonic spirits"? The reason I ask is because you said, "spirits are thoughts". Yes...this is what scripture teaches. Thoughts are spirit that give birth, in the LOINS of the mind to vain imaginations that bring either Life or death. They can drive a person mad, make them ill, rob them of Joy, make them bitter. Of course, because we are ONE it effects the whole Body. This is why ALL of typology is describing the mind.

Thank you,you're most welcome! Kathryn
Rick

kathryn
12-17-2011, 04:19 AM
Hi Rick...here is the Greek word for imagination: Dianoia: mind, understanding; the mind as a faculty of understanding, feeling, desiring, mind ie: spirit, way of thinking, feeling, thoughts either good or bad
The word used in Hebrew refers to them as graven idols of the heart.

All thoughts from the soul are divided thoughts until we receive Rhema. Because we have the understanding of God's character in our virgin subconcious, when Rhema is received...it witnesses in our subconcious. This is why we must become "like a child". This is the process of the circumcision of the heart. In typology, a circumcised heart is typified by the High Priest who enters the Holy of Holies(virgin subconcious mind). Until we receive rhema...the Old man, the uncircumcised "high priest"...has his way.

The High Priest not only had to be circumcised, he had to have his genitals examined closely. Any imperfections in his testes (TESTIMONY) or "stones" ...and he would be declared UNCLEAN (unclean imaginations)and would not be allowed to enter the Holy of Holies. The Spirit of Prophecy is the TESTIMONY of Jesus Christ. We become the Testimony, when our obedience is complete.

Divided thoughts are all from the fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. As I mentioned earlier...some of them can seem extremely good to us and therefore familiar. These "good" ones are the "hidden" ones and the most deadly. When inquity (the tares) ripen, they have become a stronghold...a fortress, behind which "principalities" direct us. The word principalities has the connotation of the edge of a sail. They direct us from where we have given them authority or power in the "air". (our soul/mind/2nd heaven) We are "double minded" (blown here and there in the "air") until our thoughts are God's thoughts and fully integrated. All thoughts are "messengers".

The Holy Spirit, through the Word made Flesh is the DOUBLE EDGED Sword...that comes to divide the Jordan or river of death/life, the "upper waters" from the "lower waters" :


Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. It is this division that allows us to "cross over" to the Promised Land...the "garden" of the consummated (fully integrated) subconcious/heart/mind, in which there is no longer any division.

heb13-13
12-17-2011, 09:22 AM
Hi Kathryn,

Thanks for your reply.

Is the Holy Spirit an integral person of the Trinity? Or is the Holy Spirit just "godly thoughts" from God?

Who is appearing before the Lord in the 3rd heaven in Job 1:6? Is this a "thought" appearing before Him or a person, as in individual entity?

Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Is God speaking to a thought here, or to an individual personality/entity? It seems like there is a dialogue going on here.

Job 1:7
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 1:9
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Who is Jesus speaking to here and who spoke back to Jesus?

Mark 5:9
And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

What was Legion referring to when he said, "we are many"?

Is God speaking to a "thought" in this instance, below?
Job 1:12
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

If Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord, then that means he appeared in the 3rd heaven. In some previous post you said Satan has no access to the 3rd heaven, but here he is departing from the very presence of the Lord.

Here is my last question.

In Matt 12:43 below, what is this entity that has gone out of a man and is now seeking "rest"? Presumably to find another willing vessel to "inhabit". Is this a thought or an individual entity/personality? If you think it is just an evil thought, be careful because the Bible refers to it as a "he", meaning an individual personality.

Mat 12:43
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

All the best,
Rick

kathryn
12-17-2011, 09:54 AM
Hi Kathryn,

Thanks for your reply.

Is the Holy Spirit an integral person of the Trinity? Or is the Holy Spirit just "godly thoughts" from God? God is ONE . The Father in the Son, the Son in the Father , the Father and Son is One in us, we in them. This was Jesus prayer before the crucifixion..that we would be re-mem-bered into the ONE. The Holy Spirit is the integrated HOLY Spirit(thoughts/Mind of Christ) of the ONE.

Who is appearing before the Lord in the 3rd heaven in Job 1:6? Is this a "thought" appearing before Him or a person, as in individual entity?

Satan has no access to the 3rd heaven, Rick. He has always been relegated to the 2nd heaven..or the realm of the soul; the Holy Place where we cleanse ourselves in the Molten Sea. The 3rd Heaven, in typology, is the Holy of Holies...the virgin subconscious mind.

Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Is God speaking to a thought here, or to an individual personality/entity? he is speaking to spirit..yes. Where are you when you "present yourself to the Lord? Your feet are on earth...your spirit or mind is stayed on Him. It seems like there is a dialogue going on here.

Job 1:7
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 1:9
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Who is Jesus speaking to here and who spoke back to Jesus?

Mark 5:9
And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

What was Legion referring to when he said, "we are many"?

again...this is referring to the ripening of the tares and wheat. Both the tares (vain imaginations) and wheat are seeded in the same field (the mind). When they have BOTH grown (ripened) into HEADS...the tares are removed (burnt up in the FIRE of God's Word) and the wheat moved into the barn. When we have developed a "stronghold" in our imagination, there is a legion of divided spirits/thoughts that are attached to it. The "7" in Mary, were expressing the same thing.


Is God speaking to a "thought" in this instance, below?
Job 1:12
[B]And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

If Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord, then that means he appeared in the 3rd heaven. In some previous post you said Satan has no access to the 3rd heaven, but here he is departing from the very presence of the Lord.

The presence of the Lord is in and through all of Creation Rick. This is where we must take our blinders off...otherwise we will miss so much of the Proceeding Word from the Throne (the heart) . Satan can only accuse us from the soul/2nd heaven realm. He has no power to create anything from the realm of the 3rd Heaven (virgin subconcious)...but that which we give him in our imagination. This is why the imagination must be cleansed.

Here is my last question.

In Matt 12:43 below, what is this entity that has gone out of a man and is now seeking "rest"? Presumably to find another willing vessel to "inhabit". Is this a thought or an individual entity/personality? If you think it is just an evil thought, be careful because the Bible refers to it as a "he", meaning an individual personality.

Mat 12:43
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

AS A MAN THINKETH, SO IS HE. We walk through the DRY bed of the Jordan on our way to the "Promised Land"...our fully integrated Spirit/Soul and Body.





All the best,
Rick

heb13-13
12-17-2011, 10:51 AM
Hi Kathryn,

Thanks for your reply.

Is the Holy Spirit an integral person of the Trinity? Or is the Holy Spirit just "godly thoughts" from God? God is ONE . The Father in the Son, the Son in the Father , the Father and Son is One in us, we in them. This was Jesus prayer before the crucifixion..that we would be re-mem-bered into the ONE. The Holy Spirit is the integrated HOLY Spirit of the ONE.

Interesting answer. Still seems more like double-speak than straightforward and plain speech. For instance, Ananias and Sapphira were accused of lying to the Holy Spirit. You lie to someone, you don't lie to a thought.


Who is appearing before the Lord in the 3rd heaven in Job 1:6? Is this a "thought" appearing before Him or a person, as in individual entity?

Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Satan has no access to the 3rd heaven, Rick. He has always been relegated to the 2nd heaven..or the realm of the soul. The 3rd Heaven, in typology, is the Holy of Holies...the virgin subconscious mind.

Can you show me in typology where the 3rd heaven is the Holy of Holies? The Bible is plain that Satan came into the presence of the Lord. What is so unbelievable about that? God is not fragile.


Job 1:7
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Is God speaking to a thought here, or to an individual personality/entity?he is speaking to spirit..yes. Where are you when you "present yourself to the Lord? Your feet are on earth...your spirit or mind is stayed on Him. It seems like there is a dialogue going on here.

How can I be more clearer. Is God speaking to a spiritual individual?





Job 1:9
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Who is speaking to the Lord?

Who is Jesus speaking to here and who spoke back to Jesus?

Mat 9:34
And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

What was Legion referring to when he said, "we are many"?again...this is referring to the ripening of the tares and wheat. Both the tares (vain imaginations) and wheat are seeded in the same field (the mind). When they have BOTH grown (ripened) into HEADS...the tares are removed (burnt up in the FIRE of God's Word) and the wheat moved into the barn. When we have developed a "stronghold" in our imagination, there is a legion of divided spirits/thoughts that are attached to it. The "7" in Mary, were expressing the same thing.



Again, you are deviating from the plainness of speech in the scriptures. Why would people exclaim and marvel when Jesus cast out "devils"? They don't exclaim when people change their thoughts because we seldom know about that instantly. Something physical manifested that caused the people to exclaim.


Mar 1:34
And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases(physical manifestation), and cast out many devils(physical manifestation); and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him. Kathryn, I contend that the Bible is speaking plainly here and the preponderance of scriptures show that the devils are spiritual entities, not thoughts. They propose thoughts that are contradictory to God's Word but are not thoughts. They look for entrance into one's being through passivity which can come by various means. People can be rendered passive in their mind, will and emotions by the various "bruisings" of Satan. Emotional, Physical, Psychological, Sexual abuse. And people can be rendered passive through drug use, also.


Mar 16:9
Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
If Jesus just renewed her mind, why would He say this about Mary? In other parts of scripture when they talk about renewing the mind, they state that. Renewing the mind is one thing and casting out devils is quite another. Again, plainness of speech.

Mat 9:33
And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.

And what did they marvel at? The Pharisees tell us below that it was not so much the physical healing but the casting out of the devils.

But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.

So the Pharisees were talking about the devils not the physical healing.


Is God speaking to a "thought" in this instance, below?

Job 1:12
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

If Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord, then that means he appeared in the 3rd heaven. In some previous post you said Satan has no access to the 3rd heaven, but here he is departing from the very presence of the Lord. The presence of the Lord is in and through all of Creation Rick. This is where we must take our blinders off...otherwise we will miss so much of the Proceeding Word from the Throne (the heart) . Satan can only accuse us from the soul/2nd heaven realm. He has no power to create anything from the realm of the 3rd Heaven (virgin subconcious)...but that which we give him .


I did not say that Satan created anything and neither does the scripture. It says that he came into the presence of the Lord and went forth from the presence of the Lord. You say that the presence of the Lord is in all creation thus implying that since Satan is created then the presence of the Lord is in Satan. I'm sorry, Kathryn, but your departure from the obvious, plain speech of scripture creates confusion with other parts of scripture, let alone me. Once you start to create this "typology" then it is uncumbent on you to change all of scripture interpretation into typology to make your initial typology fit throughout.

I love typology but throughout the Bible there is much plainness of speech. People don't think in typology or numbers. God knows how He made people and He knows how people communicate. SJ and you have taken the simple Gospel (it seems) and made it very complicated.

John 12:47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.


What do you mean by the "Presence of the Lord"? Yes, God created every living thing. But, do you believe the Presence of the Lord is in a tree? If yes, then what is the "Presence of the Lord?" Is the presence of the Lord in a sinner (unbeliever)? Is the presence of the Lord in Satan? Again, what is your definition for the Presence of the Lord?
Here is my last question.

In Matt 12:43 below, what is this entity that has gone out of a man and is now seeking "rest"? Presumably to find another willing vessel to "inhabit". Is this a thought or an individual entity/personality? If you think it is just an evil thought, be careful because the Bible refers to it as a "he", meaning an individual personality.

Mat 12:43
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

As a man thinketh...so is he.
All the best,
Rick

I can see that you and SJ and I have fundamental differences with how the Word of God is interpreted. In fact, I have only recently been introduced to Stephen Jones. There seems to be no plain speech with you and SJ. Everything is redefined through SJ's typology in which you can almost make the Bible say anything, because through typology he has redefined the obvious into the obscure.

Ok, I'm not going to beat a dead horse and I think I have spoken plainly. I am not in any way speaking in typology. I am being as plain as possible. I have to tell you though, because of all your "typology" it is difficult to be interested in your posts because they deviate so much from PLAIN scripture.

I figure if people don't speak up and tell you this you won't know how we feel. It's like you are speaking a foreign language to me. Well, I don't know what you are going to do with this realization, but I just thought it was best to tell you rather than have you thinking that I am reading each and everyone of your posts. I would have to throw out most of my understanding that I have gained through the years, which I have no problem doing if I recognize truth, but something in me is just not "flocking" to your "truth".

Of course, I will continue to read your posts here and there and who knows, maybe something will "click".

Have a great day,
Rick

2Co 3:12
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

kathryn
12-17-2011, 11:09 AM
Hi Rick...I think, as you suggested, its time to take a break from this. Perhaps you could give me the biblical definition as you understand it, of a demon. From my understanding, it is a spirit/thought that inhabits a person's soul and body.

Remember as well, that Jesus was walking in the DOUBLE annointing of the DOUBLE witness. We haven't seen that yet, on earth, since the 1st century. The Church immediately went into the refining stage after He was resurrected. We have developed strongholds in this area, by trying to move in the Double Witness...when we have yet to be perfected in True Unity (have our minds Renewed). The church has looked at their impotence as being the power of satan opposing them. Of course it is..but they haven't realized their double-mindness is what is giving "him" the power.

All the best to you Rick...Hopefully we can pick this up at another point in time.

Rose
12-17-2011, 11:25 AM
Hi Rick...I think, as you suggested, its time to take a break from this. Perhaps you could give me the biblical definition as you understand it, of a demon. From my understanding, it is a spirit/thought that inhabits a person's soul and body.

Remember as well, that Jesus was walking in the DOUBLE annointing of the DOUBLE witness. We haven't seen that yet, on earth, since the 1st century. The Church immediately went into the refining stage after He was resurrected. We have developed strongholds in this area, by trying to move in the Double Witness...when we have yet to be perfected in True Unity (have our minds Renewed). The church has looked at their impotence as being the power of satan opposing them. Of course it is..but they haven't realized their double-mindness is what is giving "him" the power.

All the best to you Rick...Hopefully we can pick this up at another point in time.

Hi Kathyrn,

You make a good point! The church has always looked at their impotence as being caused by Satan, in the same manner as individual Christians always seem to point to Satan, and demons when things go wrong in their lives. In reality the same problems happen to non-Christians that happen to Christians, and half the time people bring those problems onto themselves.

Rose

heb13-13
12-17-2011, 03:26 PM
Hi Kathyrn,

You make a good point! The church has always looked at their impotence as being caused by Satan, in the same manner as individual Christians always seem to point to Satan, and demons when things go wrong in their lives. In reality the same problems happen to non-Christians that happen to Christians, and half the time people bring those problems onto themselves.

Rose

OK Kathryn,

It seems good that I should take this back to the "Demons" thread. I will lay out my case from the beginning.

Rick