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heb13-13
11-20-2011, 07:15 PM
I wanted to submit this incredible amount of info I just found. I thought about putting this in the "Fringe" forum because I have no idea how much is true. But after reading through several pages I realized that "Mystery Religions" seemed more appropriate.


http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/codex_magica/codex_magica.htm#Contents


http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/codex_magica/codex_magica04.htm
83

Interesting how much in common the Dems and the Republicans really have when most of the time they are trying to show us that they are idealogical enemies. In many ways they are both working towards the same goals.

Someone (Texe Marrs) has obviously done a lot of work. I did not know that Ronald Reagon was a 33rd degree Mason. I bet most of his followers and admirers don't know that. I wonder if it would change their opinion of him?

This is kind of funny. Read the comments. Masons trying to figure out the term "Are you a travelling man?"
http://thenortheasterncorner.com/2008/07/are-you-traveling-man.html

Rick

heb13-13
11-20-2011, 07:31 PM
Probably good to start here. (Introduction of all places).

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/codex_magica/codex_magica00.htm#INTRODUCTION"

And at the bottom, Texe Marrs (interesting name) throws out this challenge.

RC Christian
11-20-2011, 07:41 PM
Probably good to start here. (Introduction of all places).

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/codex_magica/codex_magica00.htm#INTRODUCTION"

And at the bottom, Texe Marrs (interesting name) throws out this challenge.

Wow, Texe has a lot to say...about nothing. Good post though...funny. :)

Richard Amiel McGough
11-20-2011, 08:02 PM
I wanted to submit this incredible amount of info I just found. I thought about putting this in the "Fringe" forum because I have no idea how much is true. But after reading through several pages I realized that "Mystery Religions" seemed more appropriate.


http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/codex_magica/codex_magica.htm#Contents


http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/codex_magica/codex_magica04.htm


Interesting how much in common the Dems and the Republicans really have when most of the time they are trying to show us that they are idealogical enemies. In many ways they are both working towards the same goals.

Someone (Texe Marrs) has obviously done a lot of work. I did not know that Ronald Reagon was a 33rd degree Mason. I bet most of his followers and admirers don't know that. I wonder if it would change their opinion of him?

This is kind of funny. Read the comments. Masons trying to figure out the term "Are you a travelling man?"
http://thenortheasterncorner.com/2008/07/are-you-traveling-man.html

Rick
Texe Marrs? I guess you never heard of him before. He's "pretty far out there" in the land of wild conspiracy theories, KJVOnly-ism, and all sorts of wacky stuff that convinced me long ago he was a loon. I should make a "Outer Fringe" subforum for guys like Marrs.

Case in point, Ronald Reagan was not a Freemason, let alone a 33 degree Mason! Here is the list of Presidents who were Masons from the Masonic site - they are very proud of their members who were also Presidents. Here's the list from their own page (http://mastermason.com/wilmettepark/pres.html):

George Washington
James Monroe
Andrew Jackson
James Polk
James Buchanan
Andrew Johnson
James Garfield
William McKinley
Theodore Roosevelt
Howard Taft
Warren Harding
Franklin Roosevelt
Harry Truman
Gerald Ford
And here's their explanation for the "confusion" (or deliberate disinformation) about Reagan's status as a Mason -



Ronald Reagan has often been referred to as a Freemason. President Reagan is
not a Freemason although he is an honorary member of the Imperial Council of the
Shrine. President Reagan has on numerous occasions been involved in Shrine and
masonic functions throughout his career.
The confusion as to his membership arises from a ceremony held in the Oval
Office of the White House on February 11th, 1988, when a group of Freemasons
presented President Reagan with a certificate of honor from the Grand Lodge of
Washington, D.C., then he was made an Honourary Scottish Rite mason. The title
of Freemason can only be conferred by a Grand Lodge of Ancient Free and Accepted
Masons. In Reagan's case this was not done, probably because the ceremonies
would have taken a full day to confer and the president's time was limited;
therefore,President Reagan should only be referred to as a Shriner or Scottish
Rite mason. The Shrine and Scottish Rite are concordant bodies and cannot confer
the title Freemason on any person.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-20-2011, 08:03 PM
Texe Marrs? I guess you never heard of him before. He's "pretty far out there" in the land of wild conspiracy theories, KJVOnly-ism, and all sorts of wacky stuff that convinced me long ago he was a loon. I should make a "Outer Fringe" subforum for guys like Marrs.

Case in point, Ronald Reagan was not a Freemason, let alone a 33 degree Mason! Here is the list of Presidents who were Masons from the Masonic site - they are very proud of their members who were also Presidents. Here's the list from their own page (http://mastermason.com/wilmettepark/pres.html):
George Washington
James Monroe
Andrew Jackson
James Polk
James Buchanan
Andrew Johnson
James Garfield
William McKinley
Theodore Roosevelt
Howard Taft
Warren Harding
Franklin Roosevelt
Harry Truman
Gerald Ford
And here's their explanation for the "confusion" (or deliberate disinformation) about Reagan's status as a Mason -

So what do you think of the Freemasons? Are they part of an "Illuninati conspiracy" to rule the world with Satan as their king?

RC Christian
11-20-2011, 08:14 PM
So what do you think of the Freemasons? Are they part of an "Illuninati conspiracy" to rule the world with Satan as their king?


Well of course they are...duh! :winking0071:

Richard Amiel McGough
11-20-2011, 08:30 PM
Well of course they are...duh! :winking0071:
I knew it! And now we have it straight from one of the Illumanit henchmen!

RC Christian
11-20-2011, 08:51 PM
I knew it! And now we have it straight from one of the Illumanit henchmen!

That's 'Mr. Illuminati Henchmen'... to you! (Unless you actually are a traveling man...in disguise!

heb13-13
11-20-2011, 09:53 PM
So what do you think of the Freemasons? Are they part of an "Illuninati conspiracy" to rule the world with Satan as their king?

I have never paid much attention to that or any other "secret societies". My security is not in knowledge because knowledge is not always equivalent to truth. In fact, there is more "knowledge" floating around today than truth. Truth is a person and my faith is not in what I know but who I know.

Knowledge will abound, but not the knowledge of the Holy.

Anyway, thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Rick

heb13-13
11-20-2011, 10:12 PM
That's 'Mr. Illuminati Henchmen'... to you! (Unless you actually are a traveling man...in disguise!

Not knowing anything about these "secret societies", I do find it interesting when people jokingly laugh it off with a veiled mocking of any proponent of it. Obviously, it is condescending but I wonder if there is anything else behind it. :winking0071:

This all brings up an observation I have made over the years in being an observer of human behaviour and it seems interesting to me how different people react when some kind of supposed "conspiracy theory" is brought up.

I see that with a lot of different subjects.

I have read a bit through the years and have noticed the derision that goes on towards people that talk about the Club of Rome, Illuminati, Council on Foreign Relations, Bilderburg Group, etc, etc. They mock and joke about proposed conspiracies as if they are actually "in the know" about something. Most people that don't have a clue about something won't do that. However, people that do know about something and want to keep it secret,,, well you get my point.

Some take these subjects very seriously and others mock them derisively. I'm not saying secret societies don't exist and aren't serious. But, I'm not going to spend my life trying to uncover them. I guess that is what Texe Marrs did or is doing ( I don't even know if he is dead or alive).

From what I have learned about history and conspiracies, there are two views. The "Accidental View of History" and the "Conspiratorial View of History". The Accidental View of course is always accidental until proven fact. Like Hitlers conspiracy to invade Poland and then the reality of it. Whether the burning of the Reichstag was conspiratorial, it has never really been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Anyway, I would think if one is part of a "secret society", one would want to keep it secret. Right? That is why I find joking or mocking an individual about secret societies could also be a technique in continuing to achieve their goal of secrecy. If I wanted to keep something secret, I would certainly laugh it off as "crazy".

All the best,
Rick

RC Christian
11-20-2011, 11:54 PM
Not knowing anything about these "secret societies", I do find it interesting when people jokingly laugh it off with a veiled mocking of any proponent of it. Obviously, it is condescending but I wonder if there is anything else behind it. :winking0071:

This all brings up an observation I have made over the years in being an observer of human behaviour and it seems interesting to me how different people react when some kind of supposed "conspiracy theory" is brought up.

I see that with a lot of different subjects.

I have read a bit through the years and have noticed the derision that goes on towards people that talk about the Club of Rome, Illuminati, Council on Foreign Relations, Bilderburg Group, etc, etc. They mock and joke about proposed conspiracies as if they are actually "in the know" about something. Most people that don't have a clue about something won't do that. However, people that do know about something and want to keep it secret,,, well you get my point.

Some take these subjects very seriously and others mock them derisively. I'm not saying secret societies don't exist and aren't serious. But, I'm not going to spend my life trying to uncover them. I guess that is what Texe Marrs did or is doing ( I don't even know if he is dead or alive).

From what I have learned about history and conspiracies, there are two views. The "Accidental View of History" and the "Conspiratorial View of History". The Accidental View of course is always accidental until proven fact. Like Hitlers conspiracy to invade Poland and then the reality of it. Whether the burning of the Reichstag was conspiratorial, it has never really been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Anyway, I would think if one is part of a "secret society", one would want to keep it secret. Right? That is why I find joking or mocking an individual about secret societies could also be a technique in continuing to achieve their goal of secrecy. If I wanted to keep something secret, I would certainly laugh it off as "crazy".

All the best,
Rick

Good intuition.

Charisma
11-21-2011, 06:14 AM
Hi Rick and all,

Interesting thread... :)


Anyway, I would think if one is part of a "secret society", one would want to keep it secret. Right? That is why I find joking or mocking an individual about secret societies could also be a technique in continuing to achieve their goal of secrecy. If I wanted to keep something secret, I would certainly laugh it off as "crazy".


Do you remember there is an element of 'mocking' in the name Ishmael, just as there is contrasting 'laughter' in Isaac?

Some verses which bring light on the matter of the supposed secrecy of the powers of darkness, come from Paul's analysis:

Colossians 2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


Acts 26:4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; 5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. 6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 7 Unto which [promise] our twelve tribes, instantly serving [God] day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. 8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against [them]. 11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled [them] to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted [them] even unto strange cities. 12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,

13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. 14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. 21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill [me]. 22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: 23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles. 24 And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad. 25 But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness. 26 For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.

To be accused of madness for believing God's assessment of spiritual reality is normal. It happened to Jesus, too.

Mark 3:20 And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21 And when his friends heard [of it], they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself. 22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

It has to be asked why anyone would want to be on the losing side?

And, why would anyone put forward evil as the more desirable morality?

Why would they think that when they opposed the Prince of Life as He went about doing good, healing, preaching repentance toward God and forgiveness for sins, it was not obvious to all, that they did not have anyone's wellbeing at heart?

That they labour under the misapprehension that darkness, sin, death and destruction is more desirable than light and life, only proves what Paul and John said about darkness blinding the minds of those who are perishing - and that they don't 'see' it as 'a lie', or, truly, that they 'love' 'a lie'. Of course, everyone is entitled* to their own opinion. It always surprises me that those who reserve the right to deny God on those terms, are reluctant to grant those who believe in Him the same* freedom.


Isaiah 5

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;
that put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe unto [them that are] wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

22 Woe unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, [so] their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust:
because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

RC Christian
11-21-2011, 09:00 AM
Hi Rick and all,

Interesting thread... :)



Do you remember there is an element of 'mocking' in the name Ishmael, just as there is contrasting 'laughter' in Isaac?

Some verses which bring light on the matter of the supposed secrecy of the powers of darkness, come from Paul's analysis:

Colossians 2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


Acts 26:4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; 5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. 6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 7 Unto which [promise] our twelve tribes, instantly serving [God] day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. 8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against [them]. 11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled [them] to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted [them] even unto strange cities. 12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,

13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. 14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. 21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill [me]. 22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: 23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles. 24 And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad. 25 But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness. 26 For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.

To be accused of madness for believing God's assessment of spiritual reality is normal. It happened to Jesus, too.

Mark 3:20 And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21 And when his friends heard [of it], they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself. 22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

It has to be asked why anyone would want to be on the losing side?

And, why would anyone put forward evil as the more desirable morality?

Why would they think that when they opposed the Prince of Life as He went about doing good, healing, preaching repentance toward God and forgiveness for sins, it was not obvious to all, that they did not have anyone's wellbeing at heart?

That they labour under the misapprehension that darkness, sin, death and destruction is more desirable than light and life, only proves what Paul and John said about darkness blinding the minds of those who are perishing - and that they don't 'see' it as 'a lie', or, truly, that they 'love' 'a lie'. Of course, everyone is entitled* to their own opinion. It always surprises me that those who reserve the right to deny God on those terms, are reluctant to grant those who believe in Him the same* freedom.


Isaiah 5

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;
that put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe unto [them that are] wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

22 Woe unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, [so] their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust:
because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.



Noted as possibly the greatest Hebrew scholar who ever lived, Maimonides (known as Rambam), said in "Guide of the Perplexed" : "Whoever shall find out the true sense of the Book of Genesis ought to take care not to divulge it. This is a maxim that all our sages repeat to us, and above all respecting the work of the six days. If a person should discover the true meaning of it by himself, or by the aid of another, then he ought to be silent, or if he speaks of it he ought to speak of it obscurely, in an enigmatical manner, as I do myself, leaving the rest to be guessed by those who can understand me."

There exists a veil that stands between the outer allegories created to entertain and pacify the masses, and the wisdom that lies on the other side of that veil.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-21-2011, 09:21 AM
Not knowing anything about these "secret societies", I do find it interesting when people jokingly laugh it off with a veiled mocking of any proponent of it. Obviously, it is condescending but I wonder if there is anything else behind it. :winking0071:

This all brings up an observation I have made over the years in being an observer of human behaviour and it seems interesting to me how different people react when some kind of supposed "conspiracy theory" is brought up.

I see that with a lot of different subjects.

Yeah, I tend to be in the "laugh it off" group because it's public manifestion is usually a textbook case of hystria and believing things not well-supported by the evidence. This doesn't mean that there are no real conspiracies just like there might be real miracles. But sorting through all the claims quickly demonstrates that if there are true "conspiracy theories" they are about as rare as true miracles at a Benny Hinn Carnival.



I have read a bit through the years and have noticed the derision that goes on towards people that talk about the Club of Rome, Illuminati, Council on Foreign Relations, Bilderburg Group, etc, etc. They mock and joke about proposed conspiracies as if they are actually "in the know" about something. Most people that don't have a clue about something won't do that. However, people that do know about something and want to keep it secret,,, well you get my point.

Yes, I think I get your point. The folks "talking" about all this stuff are "conspiracy nuts" who don't really know what they are talking about and so open themselves up to mockery. This should not be taken as evidnece that they are wrong ... but what "evidence" then do we have for real conspiracies?

But again - there are "conspiracies" - people working together to achieve some common goal - all around us all the time. The thing with the conspiracy theories that deserve to be rejected is that they are irrational and paranoid. Great and often supernatural powers are attributed to the "secret men" behind the conspiracy. It all look like paranoid delusions.



Some take these subjects very seriously and others mock them derisively. I'm not saying secret societies don't exist and aren't serious. But, I'm not going to spend my life trying to uncover them. I guess that is what Texe Marrs did or is doing ( I don't even know if he is dead or alive).

Case in point: Texe Marss is either delusionally paranoid or a lying huckster making money off gullble Christians. Either way, his ravings should be exposed and rejected.



From what I have learned about history and conspiracies, there are two views. The "Accidental View of History" and the "Conspiratorial View of History". The Accidental View of course is always accidental until proven fact. Like Hitlers conspiracy to invade Poland and then the reality of it. Whether the burning of the Reichstag was conspiratorial, it has never really been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Anyway, I would think if one is part of a "secret society", one would want to keep it secret. Right? That is why I find joking or mocking an individual about secret societies could also be a technique in continuing to achieve their goal of secrecy. If I wanted to keep something secret, I would certainly laugh it off as "crazy".

All the best,
Rick
Actually, that's the joke of it all. The conspiracy theorists claim that the "secret society" has near total control over the news media. So I ask "How then did you find out about all their wicked schemes? Doh! :doh:

Such incoherent theories deserve to be rejected. Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-21-2011, 09:25 AM
Noted as possibly the greatest Hebrew scholar who ever lived, Maimonides (known as Rambam), said in "Guide of the Perplexed" : "Whoever shall find out the true sense of the Book of Genesis ought to take care not to divulge it. This is a maxim that all our sages repeat to us, and above all respecting the work of the six days. If a person should discover the true meaning of it by himself, or by the aid of another, then he ought to be silent, or if he speaks of it he ought to speak of it obscurely, in an enigmatical manner, as I do myself, leaving the rest to be guessed by those who can understand me."

There exists a veil that stands between the outer allegories created to entertain and pacify the masses, and the wisdom that lies on the other side of that veil.
I really wish he had just spoken plainly at least once about how he understood Genesis 1.

heb13-13
11-21-2011, 09:34 AM
Hi Rick and all,

Interesting thread... :)



Do you remember there is an element of 'mocking' in the name Ishmael, just as there is contrasting 'laughter' in Isaac?

Hi Charisma,

Great points to further the discussion.

"And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham mocking." Gen 21:9

"Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine." Acts 2:13



Some verses which bring light on the matter of the supposed secrecy of the powers of darkness, come from Paul's analysis:

Colossians 2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Contrasting the Lord doing things openly and the powers of darkness using subterfuge, secrecy and darkness to veil their true motives.

"In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me." Mat 26:55

No, the Pharisees could not arrest Jesus openly. They used others to arrest Him under cover of night. Of course the charges against Him were all trumped up lies. But, they are very good examples of how the powers of darkness "move" people.


To be accused of madness for believing God's assessment of spiritual reality is normal. It happened to Jesus, too.

It is a common ploy to kill the messenger hoping that the message may die, too.


Mark 3:20 And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21 And when his friends heard [of it], they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself. 22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.



It has to be asked why anyone would want to be on the losing side?

Deception!

It has to be asked why would the highest created being try to take God's place? With all that he had, why would he want all of the honor, praise and worship that rightfully belongs only to God? Well, we can see him duplicate his nature in men (conforming men to his image). The obvious ones being Lenin, Marx, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Mugabe, Chavez, Ghaddafi, Ho Chi Minh, North Korean leaders, etc, etc. Satan wants his image in men instead of the image of Christ. Do you think Satan actually has talked himself into ultimate reconciliation, too? Jesus said, "He is a liar and the father of lies", so can he even escape from his own deception to consider truth for even a split second? If he does believe in ultimate reconciliation, why is he still fighting so hard against the Prince of Peace and His children?


And, why would anyone put forward evil as the more desirable morality?

Many put forward evil as the more desirable morality because they do not believe they will be accountable to anyone and therefore their end justifies their means. Their end is control and power and achieving their ideology. I would be hard-pressed to believe that they think they will be held accountable someday to anyone.


Why would they think that when they opposed the Prince of Life as He went about doing good, healing, preaching repentance toward God and forgiveness for sins, it was not obvious to all, that they did not have anyone's well being at heart?

That they labour under the misapprehension that darkness, sin, death and destruction is more desirable than light and life, only proves what Paul and John said about darkness blinding the minds of those who are perishing - and that they don't 'see' it as 'a lie', or, truly, that they 'love' 'a lie'. Of course, everyone is entitled* to their own opinion. It always surprises me that those who reserve the right to deny God on those terms, are reluctant to grant those who believe in Him the same* freedom.

Well, amen to that!!



Isaiah 5

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe unto [them that are] wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

22 Woe unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, [so] their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

"Woe" sounds real bad...

"It is appointed unto men once to die, and then all is forgiven and everyone is happy as if nothing of any significance, (either good or evil) ever took place on planet earth.

It makes you wonder.

Great post,
Rick

RC Christian
11-21-2011, 10:01 AM
I really wish he had just spoken plainly at least once about how he understood Genesis 1.


Ditto. But of course that would have violated any trust that had been granted him, if he received part or most of his 'true meaning of Genesis' from others. Rambam is one of the figure-heads that Freemasons learn of as part of their "education", so one can see a similar tie in regards to the secrecy issue. Of course, many similar themes show-up in the Zohar, also.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-21-2011, 10:11 AM
Hi Rick and all,

Interesting thread... :)

Good morning Charisma, :tea:

I'm glad you think this thread is interesting. Your input is too.



Do you remember there is an element of 'mocking' in the name Ishmael, just as there is contrasting 'laughter' in Isaac?

How so? Ishmael means "God heard" - where is the "mocking" in that?
Genesis 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.

Now the KJV does say that Ishmael "mocked" but the actual word written is tzachaq - the root of his brothers name Yitzach (Isaac) which means to laugh or to play:
Genesis 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking [lit. laughing]. 10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

There is nothing in the context that suggests Ishmael was "mocking." That's just a Rabbinic tradition that got inserted into the translation.



To be accused of madness for believing God's assessment of spiritual reality is normal. It happened to Jesus, too.

I don't see how that relates to this discussion. We are talking about some theories people made up concerning secret societies trying to rule the world. Is there any reason we should think of those conspiracy theories as "God's assessment of spiritual reality?"



Mark 3:20 And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21 And when his friends heard [of it], they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself. 22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

It has to be asked why anyone would want to be on the losing side?

That's an excellent question! Indeed, it would be madness, would it not, to know the truth and choose to be on the losing side? That's my primary argument against hell. Even sinful humans know it is wrong to punish delusional people as if they were responsible for their crimes. Anyone who "chooses" eternal conscious torment in hell is obviously delusional. Nuts. Wacko. In need of Divine Care, not punishment.



And, why would anyone put forward evil as the more desirable morality?

Who is doing that? Other than a small minority of sick wackos, most folks pushing for alternative forms of morality seem to be pushing for things that are objectively good. For example, consider women's rights. Back in the day when Christianity was the dominant moral force in America, women were not free to vote or work in most male dominated careers like doctores, lawyers, and all that. This was based on Christian morality which beleived that women should be subject to men. And slavery was legal and defended from Scripture in the Bible belt. Obviously, that is a perverse and false morality. Why would anyone believe such things for a minute, let alone for 2000 years?

There is a lot of very bad "morality" that has been taught under the rubric of "Christianity." Racism. Slavery. Sexism. Anti-Semitism. Why did people see that as "desireable" when now we see it as so very wicked?



Why would they think that when they opposed the Prince of Life as He went about doing good, healing, preaching repentance toward God and forgiveness for sins, it was not obvious to all, that they did not have anyone's wellbeing at heart?

Now that's a different question. On the one had, Scripture shows that Christ deliberately provoked the Jews to kill him. And he said that he himself had blinded their eyes so that they would not be able to see even if they wanted to. So this touches on a deep mystery of which I don't think anyone could ever give a satisfying explanation.



That they labour under the misapprehension that darkness, sin, death and destruction is more desirable than light and life, only proves what Paul and John said about darkness blinding the minds of those who are perishing - and that they don't 'see' it as 'a lie', or, truly, that they 'love' 'a lie'. Of course, everyone is entitled* to their own opinion. It always surprises me that those who reserve the right to deny God on those terms, are reluctant to grant those who believe in Him the same* freedom.

Isaiah 5

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;
that put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe unto [them that are] wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

22 Woe unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, [so] their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Do you personally know anyone who fits such a description?

Richard Amiel McGough
11-21-2011, 10:20 AM
Ditto. But of course that would have violated any trust that had been granted him, if he received part or most of his 'true meaning of Genesis' from others. Rambam is one of the figure-heads that Freemasons learn of as part of their "education", so one can see a similar tie in regards to the secrecy issue. Of course, many similar themes show-up in the Zohar, also.
Well, given the historical propensity of those in power to shout "Off with his head!" at anyone who dared use their head, I don't blame them for keeping their thoughts secret. Not of a minute - they were fully justified by the threat of death and dismemberment (and not necessarily in that order!).

But now we are becoming free from the nightmare of history. We should encourage everyone to raise their voice in shouts of exhultation to proclaim the truth of their own hearts and minds. It is time we who understand the reality of universal love rise up and sing like birds!
Song of Solomon 2
10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. 11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; 12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land; 13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

RC Christian
11-21-2011, 10:36 AM
"Contrasting the Lord doing things openly and the powers of darkness using subterfuge, secrecy and darkness to veil their true motives."


Hi Heb13-13,

In regards to your quote above (sorry, I haven't learned how to do the insert-quote within a reply, yet), my best response to you would be what Rosicrucians and Freemasons each state throughout their discourses (assuming that some of the comments by you and Charisma are directed partially towards them...if not...my bad, please disregard, with apologies on my part) :

Matthew 13:10-13 "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."

References to "eyes" and "ears", "hearing" and "seeing" are symbolic and allegorical, in nature, in esoteric and arcane writings and artwork. Hence, the "All-Seeing Eye". Thought Facterd might find that interesting.

heb13-13
11-21-2011, 10:45 AM
"Contrasting the Lord doing things openly and the powers of darkness using subterfuge, secrecy and darkness to veil their true motives."


Hi Heb13-13,

In regards to your quote above (sorry, I haven't learned how to do the insert-quote within a reply, yet), my best response to you would be what Rosicrucians and Freemasons each state throughout their discourses (assuming that some of the comments by you and Charisma are directed partially towards them...if not...my bad, please disregard, with apologies on my part) :

Matthew 13:10-13 "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."

References to "eyes" and "ears", "hearing" and "seeing" are symbolic and allegorical, in nature, in esoteric and arcane writings and artwork. Hence, the "All-Seeing Eye". Thought Facterd might find that interesting.

Hey there RC,

That is a great point! So Jesus, did speak openly but in parables, so that "seeing, they will not see and hearing they will not hear". But, He did not "disguise" His truth with lies or darkness. I think He goes on to explain that the darkness that veils His parables is the darkness in our own hearts. What do you think?

The disciples even asked Jesus why He spoke in parables and His answer was:
"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Mat 13:15

I highlighted some words in your verses. "For whosoever hath"... "or hath not". What do you think Jesus is referring to? Do you think it is faith or what?

Thanks RC, something good to munch on,
Rick

RC Christian
11-21-2011, 12:38 PM
Hey there RC,

That is a great point! So Jesus, did speak openly but in parables, so that "seeing, they will not see and hearing they will not hear". But, He did not "disguise" His truth with lies or darkness. I think He goes on to explain that the darkness that veils His parables is the darkness in our own hearts. What do you think?

The disciples even asked Jesus why He spoke in parables and His answer was:
"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Mat 13:15

I highlighted some words in your verses. "For whosoever hath"... "or hath not". What do you think Jesus is referring to? Do you think it is faith or what?

Thanks RC, something good to munch on,
Rick


Well first of all, I'd love for you or some other kind member on the board to educate me on how to do the "insert partial quotes within the body of a reply" :pray: In reference to your remark, what are you referring to as "lies and darkness", if you're discussing the societies that we're referencing? And just for argument sake, suppose these societies did/do have a "secret" (sorry Richard) that was entrusted to them...entrusted by oaths...that wouldn't be evil, would it? And suppose their symbols and rituals were put out there for others who come across the same secrets, independently or accidentally, to know who to go and learn from...I guess as a bad analogy...kind of like smoke signals.

"For whosoever hath"... "or hath not" ... my 'opinion'...you may not like the answer, but ...those initiated into the mystery school teachings of the day. Again, just my opinion...not my thesis. :)


Thanks for the response to my post and thanks for the conversation.

heb13-13
11-21-2011, 02:46 PM
Well first of all, I'd love for you or some other kind member on the board to educate me on how to do the "insert partial quotes within the body of a reply" :pray: In reference to your remark, what are you referring to as "lies and darkness", if you're discussing the societies that we're referencing? And just for argument sake, suppose these societies did/do have a "secret" (sorry Richard) that was entrusted to them...entrusted by oaths...that wouldn't be evil, would it? And suppose their symbols and rituals were put out there for others who come across the same secrets, independently or accidentally, to know who to go and learn from...I guess as a bad analogy...kind of like smoke signals.

"For whosoever hath"... "or hath not" ... my 'opinion'...you may not like the answer, but ...those initiated into the mystery school teachings of the day. Again, just my opinion...not my thesis. :)


Thanks for the response to my post and thanks for the conversation.

Hi RC,

No problem. It is an interesting conversation and it stimulates various avenues of thinking.

Yes, it could be that only those in the "mystery schools" are in the "know" or "hath" and others "hath not". However, it seems that it all depends on who is using the Bible or the words in the Bible and what their view of "knowledge" is and their motives for desiring this knowledge. I can definitely see that it is used by many groups or people for various reasons and they may or may not be in agreement on select topics.

But is knowledge important for knowledge sake or is the knowledge of God (not facts) within relationship with Him, what is really important? I'm sure there are differing opinions.

One verse that comes to mind is:

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." Tit 1:16

So, here is a statement that actually would help one in "testing the spirits". There are many such truths in the Bible that are tools in sharpening one's discernment. But discernment does not come solely from "printed words" otherwise all who read the Bible would have discernment. Right? The indwelling Holy Spirit is a matchless "guide" who will lead into all truth.

Regarding "lies and darkness", that goes back to many discussions on this forum as to what is a lie and what is truth. If we can agree that God is truth and in Him is no darkness at all, then darkness (whatever that might be) could be used to "shade" or even obscure God's truth (whatever that might be). Where there is darkness you don't find any light. But the reality is that there is usually mixture. The light is not that bright and the darkness is not that dark. In other words, it's enough light (truth) to fool many (make things believable). Bring up the "believability" level a notch or two.

I say "whatever that might be", because I want to be generous to all and not come across as one that judges who has light and who does not. I also am being honest in saying that I don't have the market on truth, either. Not by a long run. My experience is that a lot of people have both light and darkness (truth and untruths) and key for all of us is to apprehend more "light" in our lives. Why would any rational (to use Richard's phrase) person want more darkness? Anyone who says they do have all the truth, is obviously in darkness (and we can probably agree on that). On the other hand, a babe in Christ does not have to have all knowledge to know God, do they? The depth of his knowledge may not be deep, but knowing God is never about reams and reams of knowledge.

I have often said that Truth is a Person.

"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:" Jer 9:23

"But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." Jer 9:24

Jeremiah agrees with Matthew 7 about the man that appears before the Lord at the judgement and is boasting about all that he had accomplished on earth, in Jesus' name no less. Yet the Lord say, "Depart from me, I never knew you".

Same thing in Matthew 25 regarding the 10 virgins. The five that pleaded for the door to be opened heard the words, "I don't know you".

And that brings up another point about secret words, handshakes, body positions, etc.

Christians don't rely on those things as a general rule in getting to know if someone is the genuine article or not. Maybe in times of severe persecution they develop signs that would conceal where the brethren are hiding or meeting but generally Christians rely on the Holy Spirit to confirm and validate the Christ in someone else. And it has nothing to do with saying the "right words", repeating predefined phrases, or wearing certain jewelry or clothing or having any kind of hand signs or gestures.

Without the "mind of Christ" we cannot hope to understand the things of God or "know the Lord".

The preaching of the good news has never been a matter of persuading someone through the process of reasoning (Think Josh McDowell's Evidence That Demands a Verdict). Instead, it has always been a matter of simply declaring Christ's reality. This is a ridiculous proposition that will only leave the messenger in a totally helpless role. For people to believe him, nothing short of a miracle is always needed to translate one from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of His Dear Son (Col 1:13).

Many want to "add" to the "recipe" (Gospel) in order to bring up the believability level in people. So, today we have all kinds of rituals, formal liturgies, formulas (Institutional, scriptural or otherwise), miracles, miracle workers, etc, etc, because those in control know that people gravitate to these things. And those in control don't want to be left in a position where they have no control or influence. So they think if they can add some "weight" of believability to the message of the cross and the things of the Spirit then people will believe and their organization will grow. But, are they really being validated by God? Isn't that what we all want to know? Are we on the right road?

I think that kind of thinking (trying to make the Gospel more believable) has been responsible for many false conversions and the false conversions have made Christianity a laughingstock. But that's ok. It has always been this way. The truth has always been maligned.

You see our validation has to truly come from Christ alone but something interesting about people is that they want to have "a part in it", they want to make God's message better and more believable, because it is uncomfortable to them in it's present state. The flesh does not like being a "fool for Christ".

So with what I have said about "believability level" as a foundation you can understand then why there is such a big drive today to "prove" faith through science and all manner of books and a never ending supply of miraculous healing ministries. If only people will see this or read that, then surely they will believe. We just need more "proof" to show people. And of course all of this always makes sense to the natural mind. But, because of this there is an unending plethora of debates on Christianity by Christians, and I really wonder how much of it is profitable. I try to have conversations with others but catch myself in a debate sometimes and realize that it is probably not going to end well.

Anyway, I'm in danger of rambling,

All the best,
Rick

P.S. Just a short story for you.

Myself and others all meet in a home, or at Denny's, maybe the park for a barbecue or whatever, but sometimes we have "guests". People that want to visit. We don't feel intimidated or paranoid or have secret handshakes or code words. We just get to know them on a relational level. We want everyone to share their portion of Christ. And we look for Christ in them as we hope they are looking for a portion of Christ in us. One particular person met with us for about 6 months and everything seemed to be really cool, but then he started talking about the Sabbath being Saturday and we needed to honor the Sabbath, and do this and that etc, etc. Well, after praying about it and thinking about it for several weeks, the brothers in the fellowship talked to this person one day and just simply said to him, "If God is telling you to observe Saturday as the Sabbath, then we think you better obey Him". And that was that. No harsh words, no docrinal arguments, no strife. However, the individual stopped coming to meet with us. We have no leader except Christ, no man to tell everyone what to do and how to do it, no man that takes over our gatherings and regiments them. Our meetings are open meetings and everyone can participate. The children often do, because they sense freedom. But sometimes guests come who think we need some "organization". Well, suffice to say, the Lord has always taken care of us. But if we ever stop making Him the focus of our attention, and we stop giving Him the preeminence, we know that we are in trouble. Many of us have these past experiences of gravitating to men and buildings and organizations and many others things that are suppose to increase the "believability level" but never do. They only serve to take you away from Christ.

Do we think we have all the answers? No. We need Christ to validate and confirm us everyday and to tweak our spiritual GPS to make sure we stay on the "narrow road".

Richard Amiel McGough
11-21-2011, 03:12 PM
That they labour under the misapprehension that darkness, sin, death and destruction is more desirable than light and life, only proves what Paul and John said about darkness blinding the minds of those who are perishing - and that they don't 'see' it as 'a lie', or, truly, that they 'love' 'a lie'. Of course, everyone is entitled* to their own opinion. It always surprises me that those who reserve the right to deny God on those terms, are reluctant to grant those who believe in Him the same* freedom.

Isaiah 5

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;
that put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe unto [them that are] wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

22 Woe unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, [so] their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

"Woe" sounds real bad...

"It is appointed unto men once to die, and then all is forgiven and everyone is happy as if nothing of any significance, (either good or evil) ever took place on planet earth.

It makes you wonder.

Great post,
Rick
Hey there Rick,

I agree that "woe" sounds bad, and that's how it should sound. But I see no reason to think that verse is speaking about the eternal conscious torment of the damned. Look at those to whom he's talking! His own people -

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sight! 22 Woe to men mighty at drinking wine, Woe to men valiant for mixing intoxicating drink, 23 Who justify the wicked for a bribe, And take away justice from the righteous man! 24 Therefore, as the fire devours the stubble, And the flame consumes the chaff, So their root will be as rottenness, And their blossom will ascend like dust; Because they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts, And despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. 25 Therefore the anger of the LORD is aroused against His people; He has stretched out His hand against them And stricken them, And the hills trembled. Their carcasses were as refuse in the midst of the streets. For all this His anger is not turned away, But His hand is stretched out still.

Also, I wonder if there are any real people to whom you would want to apply those verses. Do you personally know anyone you would classify that way? I'm not talking about people you see in the news or who wrote a book, but real, living people that you know around you.

Great chatting,

Richard

RC Christian
11-21-2011, 03:49 PM
Hi RC,

No problem. It is an interesting conversation and it stimulates various avenues of thinking.

Yes, it could be that only those in the "mystery schools" are in the "know" or "hath" and others "hath not". However, it seems that it all depends on who is using the Bible or the words in the Bible and what their view of "knowledge" is and their motives for desiring this knowledge. I can definitely see that it is used by many groups or people for various reasons and they may or may not be in agreement on select topics.

But is knowledge important for knowledge sake or is the knowledge of God (not facts) within relationship with Him, what is really important? I'm sure there are differing opinions.

One verse that comes to mind is:

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." Tit 1:16

So, here is a statement that actually would help one in "testing the spirits". There are many such truths in the Bible that are tools in sharpening one's discernment. But discernment does not come solely from "printed words" otherwise all who read the Bible would have discernment. Right? The indwelling Holy Spirit is a matchless "guide" who will lead into all truth.

Regarding "lies and darkness", that goes back to many discussions on this forum as to what is a lie and what is truth. If we can agree that God is truth and in Him is no darkness at all, then darkness (whatever that might be) could be used to "shade" or even obscure God's truth (whatever that might be). Where there is darkness you don't find any light. But the reality is that there is usually mixture. The light is not that bright and the darkness is not that dark. In other words, it's enough light (truth) to fool many (make things believable). Bring up the "believability" level a notch or two.

I say "whatever that might be", because I want to be generous to all and not come across as one that judges who has light and who does not. I also am being honest in saying that I don't have the market on truth, either. Not by a long run. My experience is that a lot of people have both light and darkness (truth and untruths) and key for all of us is to apprehend more "light" in our lives. Why would any rational (to use Richard's phrase) person want more darkness? Anyone who says they do have all the truth, is obviously in darkness (and we can probably agree on that). On the other hand, a babe in Christ does not have to have all knowledge to know God, do they? The depth of his knowledge may not be deep, but knowing God is never about reams and reams of knowledge.

I have often said that Truth is a Person.

"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:" Jer 9:23

"But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." Jer 9:24

Jeremiah agrees with Matthew 7 about the man that appears before the Lord at the judgement and is boasting about all that he had accomplished on earth, in Jesus' name no less. Yet the Lord say, "Depart from me, I never knew you".

Same thing in Matthew 25 regarding the 10 virgins. The five that pleaded for the door to be opened heard the words, "I don't know you".

And that brings up another point about secret words, handshakes, body positions, etc.

Christians don't rely on those things as a general rule in getting to know if someone is the genuine article or not. Maybe in times of severe persecution they develop signs that would conceal where the brethren are hiding or meeting but generally Christians rely on the Holy Spirit to confirm and validate the Christ in someone else. And it has nothing to do with saying the "right words", repeating predefined phrases, or wearing certain jewelry or clothing or having any kind of hand signs or gestures.

Without the "mind of Christ" we cannot hope to understand the things of God or "know the Lord".

The preaching of the good news has never been a matter of persuading someone through the process of reasoning (Think Josh McDowell's Evidence That Demands a Verdict). Instead, it has always been a matter of simply declaring Christ's reality. This is a ridiculous proposition that will only leave the messenger in a totally helpless role. For people to believe him, nothing short of a miracle is always needed to translate one from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of His Dear Son (Col 1:13).

Many want to "add" to the "recipe" (Gospel) in order to bring up the believability level in people. So, today we have all kinds of rituals, formal liturgies, formulas (Institutional, scriptural or otherwise), miracles, miracle workers, etc, etc, because those in control know that people gravitate to these things. And those in control don't want to be left in a position where they have no control or influence. So they think if they can add some "weight" of believability to the message of the cross and the things of the Spirit then people will believe and their organization will grow. But, are they really being validated by God? Isn't that what we all want to know? Are we on the right road?

I think that kind of thinking (trying to make the Gospel more believable) has been responsible for many false conversions and the false conversions have made Christianity a laughingstock. But that's ok. It has always been this way. The truth has always been maligned.

You see our validation has to truly come from Christ alone but something interesting about people is that they want to have "a part in it", they want to make God's message better and more believable, because it is uncomfortable to them in it's present state. The flesh does not like being a "fool for Christ".

So with what I have said about "believability level" as a foundation you can understand then why there is such a big drive today to "prove" faith through science and all manner of books and a never ending supply of miraculous healing ministries. If only people will see this or read that, then surely they will believe. We just need more "proof" to show people. And of course all of this always makes sense to the natural mind. But, because of this there is an unending plethora of debates on Christianity by Christians, and I really wonder how much of it is profitable. I try to have conversations with others but catch myself in a debate sometimes and realize that it is probably not going to end well.

Anyway, I'm in danger of rambling,

All the best,
Rick

P.S. Just a short story for you.

Myself and others all meet in a home, or at Denny's, maybe the park for a barbecue or whatever, but sometimes we have "guests". People that want to visit. We don't feel intimidated or paranoid or have secret handshakes or code words. We just get to know them on a relational level. We want everyone to share their portion of Christ. And we look for Christ in them as we hope they are looking for a portion of Christ in us. One particular person met with us for about 6 months and everything seemed to be really cool, but then he started talking about the Sabbath being Saturday and we needed to honor the Sabbath, and do this and that etc, etc. Well, after praying about it and thinking about it for several weeks, the brothers in the fellowship talked to this person one day and just simply said to him, "If God is telling you to observe Saturday as the Sabbath, then we think you better obey Him". And that was that. No harsh words, no docrinal arguments, no strife. However, the individual stopped coming to meet with us. We have no leader except Christ, no man to tell everyone what to do and how to do it, no man that takes over our gatherings and regiments them. Our meetings are open meetings and everyone can participate. The children often do, because they sense freedom. But sometimes guests come who think we need some "organization". Well, suffice to say, the Lord has always taken care of us. But if we ever stop making Him the focus of our attention, and we stop giving Him the preeminence, we know that we are in trouble. Many of us have these past experiences of gravitating to men and buildings and organizations and many others things that are suppose to increase the "believability level" but never do. They only serve to take you away from Christ.

Do we think we have all the answers? No. We need Christ to validate and confirm us everyday and to tweak our spiritual GPS to make sure we stay on the "narrow road".




I don't know how much of your comments I will be able to respond to right now, I have a couple of things I need to handle, but I'll start by saying that I feel like I just got 'witnessed' to :( . I would welcome hearing you speak your mind and conviction in person, but I'm not really interested in having such a discussion over the internet...no offense, and I'm not being 'smart' or sharp by saying that...and it doesn't irritate me either. It's just that I prefer conversations like that in person, and your points that you make are somewhat assuming that I don't know these verses that you site or maybe I just need a reminding of them...again, no offense.

I chimed in on your post about 'mystery religions' only because I felt I could provide you with some helpful info/links to a question you were posting. I, by no means, was attempting to 'convert' you to a secret society or anything like that. One of the big differences between Christianity and the Brotherhoods is, the Brotherhoods never push their 'beliefs' on other people, unlike Christianity. You have to approach them.

A simple point, that I don't think many realize is, if it wasn't for all the "conspiracy theorists" and babbling clergymen who talk about the Illuminati, secret societies, etc. (and trust me :winking0071: on this one, they are clueless in what they 'think' they know about the core of most all modern day and ancient societies)...if it wasn't for all the noise they make, most people probably wouldn't even know about them. When was the last time you saw a Freemason on TV (unless being interviewed by someone) teasing you about not knowing his secret handshakes, passwords, etc.? The symbols are put out there for a good reason, and that is for those who want to know more about what they know to find them.

I had a phone call this morning from a friend who just became a 32 degree Freemason and he was just calling me to tell me how happy he was that he went through with it. His wife is a Rosicrucian...and a wonderful, caring person...one of my better friends. And I can promise you, they want ever try to tell you that you're choices or views are possibly in error...or worse yet, 'evil'.

When I have an opportunity to, I'm going to start a thread explaining what the various publicly known symbols and aspects of rituals represent. You might very well be surprised :D. For instance, and very basic, do you know why a Freemason initiate is dressed as he is during his first three degree ceremonies...

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_tqKGTClq--A/TKg4MjMs8pI/AAAAAAAAATU/W6g2DyPKOT4/Masons%20Of%20Heaven%2093.png

http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com/2bc0ed60.png


He's dressed in similar attire and binding as a medieval heretic (many, of which, were Christians...just not 'orthodox') being led to the Inquisitor. They are being taught a symbolic lesson, from the past...kind of like a memorial, where you get to pay reverence and respect to all those forgotten and hardly ever talked about poor people.

heb13-13
11-21-2011, 03:52 PM
Hey there Rick,

I agree that "woe" sounds bad, and that's how it should sound. But I see no reason to think that verse is speaking about the eternal conscious torment of the damned. Look at those to whom he's talking! His own people -
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sight! 22 Woe to men mighty at drinking wine, Woe to men valiant for mixing intoxicating drink, 23 Who justify the wicked for a bribe, And take away justice from the righteous man! 24 Therefore, as the fire devours the stubble, And the flame consumes the chaff, So their root will be as rottenness, And their blossom will ascend like dust; Because they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts, And despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. 25 Therefore the anger of the LORD is aroused against His people; He has stretched out His hand against them And stricken them, And the hills trembled. Their carcasses were as refuse in the midst of the streets. For all this His anger is not turned away, But His hand is stretched out still.

Also, I wonder if there are any real people to whom you would want to apply those verses. Do you personally know anyone you would classify that way? I'm not talking about people you see in the news or who wrote a book, but real, living people that you know around you.

Great chatting,

Richard

No, absolutely not. I cannot think of anyone I know. I am called to walk in love and be a "sheep led to the slaughter" as it were. To walk as Jesus walked and "give place to wrath". As I write, I know of no one that I would wish this on. Even the Lord wishes for all men to be saved. But, He keeps His promises. He kept His promise to Adam and Eve, didn't He?

Final judgment is the Lord's deal not man's. Only He can judge righteously.

Rick

Charisma
11-21-2011, 03:55 PM
Hi Richard,

It's not that we apply those verses to people. There are people of whom those verses are a perfect description, to whom God is speaking directly, because while they have life there is time for repentance. Then He won't minister the prescribed punishment to them.


Do you personally know anyone you would classify that way?I do.

heb13-13
11-21-2011, 04:06 PM
I don't know how much of your comments I will be able to respond to right now, I have a couple of things I need to handle, but I'll start by saying that I feel like I just got 'witnessed' to :( . I would welcome hearing you speak your mind and conviction in person, but I'm not really interested in having such a discussion over the internet...no offense, and I'm not being 'smart' or sharp by saying that...and it doesn't irritate me either. It's just that I prefer conversations like that in person, and your points that you make are somewhat assuming that I don't know these verses that you site or maybe I just need a reminding of them...again, no offense.

Hi RC,

No offense taken and hope you are not offended either. I'll keep what you say in mind and try to be cognizant of "witnessing". I was not overtly trying to do that and since this is not really a "Christian" forum I guess I need to be careful in how I communicate.

Edit: My comment is not a criticism to the forum. I don't even know what a "Christian" forum is. To be more accurate, I think BWF is a public forum. Everyone is welcome.


I chimed in on your post about 'mystery religions' only because I felt I could provide you with some helpful info/links to a question you were posting. I, by no means, was attempting to 'convert' you to a secret society or anything like that. One of the big differences between Christianity and the Brotherhoods is, the Brotherhoods never push their 'beliefs' on other people, unlike Christianity. You have to approach them.

That's interesting, I did not know that. I am a minority where I work. Lots of Hindus and Muslims and I don't try to convert anyone, but I am open about who I am and who I believe in. Is that considered, "converting"?


A simple point, that I don't think many realize is, if it wasn't for all the "conspiracy theorists" and babbling clergymen who talk about the Illuminati, secret societies, etc. (and trust me :winking0071: on this one, they are clueless in what they 'think' they know about the core of most all modern day and ancient societies)...if it wasn't for all the noise they make, most people probably wouldn't even know about them. When was the last time you saw a Freemason on TV (unless being interviewed by someone) teasing you about not knowing his secret handshakes, passwords, etc.? The symbols are put out there for a good reason, and that is for those who want to know more about what they know to find them.

Yeah, the only way you could really find out about any "secret" society is if someone high up left and wrote an expose. I have not even researched if someone like that exists who was part of Freemasonry. Not interested really. No offense.


I had a phone call this morning from a friend who just became a 32 degree Freemason and he was just calling me to tell me how happy he was that he went through with it. His wife is a Rosicrucian...and a wonderful, caring person...one of my better friends. And I can promise you, they won't ever try to tell you that you're choices or views are possibly in error...or worse yet, 'evil'.

Yep, it's good to be a gentleman and polite. My friends and I are the same way. A lot is lost over the internet when people are just texting. It's easy to read things in and really we should be believing the best about each other, because our mode of communication is so limited.


When I have an opportunity to, I'm going to start a thread explaining what the various publicly known symbols and aspects of rituals represent. You might very well be surprised :D. For instance, and very basic, do you know why a Freemason initiate is dressed as he is during his first three degree ceremonies...

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_tqKGTClq--A/TKg4MjMs8pI/AAAAAAAAATU/W6g2DyPKOT4/Masons Of Heaven 93.png

http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com/2bc0ed60.png


He's dressed in similar attire and binding as a medieval heretic (many, of which, were Christians...just not 'orthodox') being led to the Inquisitor. They are being taught a symbolic lesson, from the past...kind of like a memorial, where you get to pay reverence and respect to all those forgotten and hardly ever talked about poor people.

Thanks again for the info. I did not know that about a Freemason Initiate.

Talk to you again, later,
Rick

heb13-13
11-21-2011, 04:15 PM
Hey there Rick,

I agree that "woe" sounds bad, and that's how it should sound. But I see no reason to think that verse is speaking about the eternal conscious torment of the damned. Look at those to whom he's talking! His own people -
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sight! 22 Woe to men mighty at drinking wine, Woe to men valiant for mixing intoxicating drink, 23 Who justify the wicked for a bribe, And take away justice from the righteous man! 24 Therefore, as the fire devours the stubble, And the flame consumes the chaff, So their root will be as rottenness, And their blossom will ascend like dust; Because they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts, And despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. 25 Therefore the anger of the LORD is aroused against His people; He has stretched out His hand against them And stricken them, And the hills trembled. Their carcasses were as refuse in the midst of the streets. For all this His anger is not turned away, But His hand is stretched out still.

Also, I wonder if there are any real people to whom you would want to apply those verses. Do you personally know anyone you would classify that way? I'm not talking about people you see in the news or who wrote a book, but real, living people that you know around you.

Great chatting,

Richard

Hi Richard,

I actually do know some people that fit Isaiah 5:20 description. I could not think of any earlier but upon further reflection I can.

Rick

RC Christian
11-21-2011, 04:16 PM
Hi RC,

No offense taken and hope you are not offended either. I'll keep what you say in mind and try to be cognizant of "witnessing". I was not overtly trying to do that and since this is not really a "Christian" forum I guess I need to be careful in how I communicate.



That's interesting, I did not know that. I am a minority where I work. Lots of Hindus and Muslims and I don't try to convert anyone, but I am open about who I am and who I believe in. Is that considered, "converting"?



Yeah, the only way you could really find out about any "secret" society is if someone high up left and wrote an expose. I have not even researched if someone like that exists who was part of Freemasonry. Not interested really. No offense.



Yep, it's good to be a gentleman and polite. My friends and I are the same way. A lot is lost over the internet when people are just texting. It's easy to read things in and really we should be believing the best about each other, because our mode of communication is so limited.



Thanks again for the info. I did not know that about a Freemason initiate.

Talk to you again, later,
Rick

Thanks for the courtesy back. Sorry if I came off too heavy on the "converting" comment. It's just that when anyone starts quoting scriptures to me about their view of things...and I've been very guilty of the same in the past...my "convert alert" goes up. I actually do like hearing and discussing people's theological views...it's just a lot easier in person.

Chime in on any of my post you want to. I appreciate the communication opportunity. :yo:

heb13-13
11-21-2011, 04:21 PM
Thanks for the courtesy back. Sorry if I came off too heavy on the "converting" comment. It's just that when anyone starts quoting scriptures to me about their view of things...and I've been very guilty of the same in the past...my "convert alert" goes up. I actually do like hearing and discussing people's theological views...it's just a lot easier in person.

Chime in on any of my post you want to. I appreciate the communication opportunity. :yo:

Very much appreciate your heart on the matter and the graciousness you extended me. You weren't heavy and I appreciated the friendly advice.

Look forward to more interesting discussions,
Rick

Charisma
11-22-2011, 03:40 PM
Hi all,

To RC Christian,

There is absolutely no difference whatever between you writing about your beliefs, and Rick writing about his. I enjoy Rick's posts. You could give them a miss if you don't.

In fact, in reading of your attitude towards him sharing his life experiences and interests, you don't show any appreciation whatever of how you sharing yours comes over. You needn't have mentioned your interests at all - unless you're prepared for the rest of us to mention ours.

Just thought I'd share how glaringly obvious that is to the observer (me).

Many thanks for reading.

heb13-13
11-22-2011, 04:19 PM
Hi all,

To RC Christian,

There is absolutely no difference whatever between you writing about your beliefs, and Rick writing about his. I enjoy Rick's posts. You could give them a miss if you don't.

In fact, in reading of your attitude towards him sharing his life experiences and interests, you don't show any appreciation whatever of how you sharing yours comes over. You needn't have mentioned your interests at all - unless you're prepared for the rest of us to mention ours.

Just thought I'd share how glaringly obvious that is to the observer (me).

Many thanks for reading.

Hi Charisma,

I was thinking the same thing today and wondered if anyone else noticed. Thank you.

We are all "witnessing" to something, eh? What makes this forum different from some others I have been on is that Richard, in his new found freedom is very much intent on preserving an air of freedom and that means that the air is warm and not chilly.

I appreciate that very much about Richard and his longsuffering with us in that he does not have a quick "trigger finger" in banning people if he does not like what they are "witnessing" to.

Blessings to all,
Rick

heb13-13
11-22-2011, 04:38 PM
Message above was edited and added to.

Rick

Charisma
11-22-2011, 04:49 PM
Hi All,


I was thinking the same thing today and wondered if anyone else noticed. We are all "witnessing" to something, eh?

Indeed we are. Some to life. Some to death.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-22-2011, 04:56 PM
Hi All,


I was thinking the same thing today and wondered if anyone else noticed. We are all "witnessing" to something, eh?

Indeed we are. Some to life. Some to death.
Death? Who is witnessing to death around here? Off with their heads!

Richard Amiel McGough
11-22-2011, 04:57 PM
Hi Charisma,

I was thinking the same thing today and wondered if anyone else noticed. Thank you.

We are all "witnessing" to something, eh? What makes this forum different from some others I have been on is that Richard, in his new found freedom is very much intent on preserving an air of freedom and that means that the air is warm and not chilly.

I appreciate that very much about Richard and his longsuffering with us in that he does not have a quick "trigger finger" in banning people if he does not like what they are "witnessing" to.

Blessings to all,
Rick
Why am I feeling all wam and sunny?

:sunny:

heb13-13
11-22-2011, 05:08 PM
Why am I feeling all wam and sunny?

:sunny:

Like Narnia, the winter is over. It was a very brief one. I'll join you on the beach. :hippie:

Richard Amiel McGough
11-22-2011, 05:29 PM
Like Narnia, the winter is over. It was a very brief one. I'll join you on the beach. :hippie:
Well said! Excellent imagery. :thumb:

RC Christian
11-22-2011, 07:29 PM
Hi All,



Indeed we are. Some to life. Some to death.

I suppose an analogous statement from me would be:

Indeed we are. Some to Light. Some to darkness.

...I think that would be?


Facing the East,
Frater Rosae Crucis

Richard Amiel McGough
11-22-2011, 07:43 PM
Indeed we are. Some to life. Some to death.
I suppose an analogous statement from me would be:

Indeed we are. Some to Light. Some to darkness.

...I think that would be?


Facing the East,
Frater Rosae Crucis

This exchange between RC and Charisma evokes this excellent little couplet written by William Blake:

We both read the Bible day and night,
But you read black where I read white.

RC Christian
11-22-2011, 08:41 PM
Hi Charisma,

I was thinking the same thing today and wondered if anyone else noticed. Thank you.

We are all "witnessing" to something, eh? What makes this forum different from some others I have been on is that Richard, in his new found freedom is very much intent on preserving an air of freedom and that means that the air is warm and not chilly.

I appreciate that very much about Richard and his longsuffering with us in that he does not have a quick "trigger finger" in banning people if he does not like what they are "witnessing" to.

Blessings to all,
Rick

Heb13-13,

Man, I really am sorry for sounding suppressive in what I said to you earlier. I didn't mean to tell you not to share you're experiences with God with me or anyone else. Honestly. I enjoy hearing people say things like, "God is great. I love Jesus. God showed me this or that. Jesus has done so much for me...". I think that's a beautiful thing...I really do. They're usually happy and optimistic people...good people. I don't like when someone tells me, "This is what God wants for us. This is how we should honor Jesus. It's up to us to develop our relationship with Jesus...". That's the only thing I really don't like...and I'm not accusing you of that...just in general. Sorry man.

Facing the East,
Frater Rosae Crucis

Richard Amiel McGough
11-22-2011, 08:49 PM
Heb13-13,

Man, I really am sorry for sounding suppressive in what I said to you earlier. I didn't mean to tell you not to share you're experiences with God with me or anyone else. Honestly. I enjoy hearing people say things like, "God is great. I love Jesus. God showed me this or that. Jesus has done so much for me...". I think that's a beautiful thing...I really do. They're usually happy and optimistic people...good people. I don't like when someone tells me, "This is what God wants for us. This is how we should honor Jesus. It's up to us to develop our relationship with Jesus...". That's the only thing I really don't like...and I'm not accusing you of that...just in general. Sorry man.

Facing the East,
Frater Rosae Crucis
Good to see that patched up. Both of you guys are an example for us all. :thumb:

heb13-13
11-22-2011, 11:41 PM
Heb13-13,

Man, I really am sorry for sounding suppressive in what I said to you earlier. I didn't mean to tell you not to share you're experiences with God with me or anyone else. Honestly. I enjoy hearing people say things like, "God is great. I love Jesus. God showed me this or that. Jesus has done so much for me...". I think that's a beautiful thing...I really do. They're usually happy and optimistic people...good people. I don't like when someone tells me, "This is what God wants for us. This is how we should honor Jesus. It's up to us to develop our relationship with Jesus...". That's the only thing I really don't like...and I'm not accusing you of that...just in general. Sorry man.

Facing the East,
Frater Rosae Crucis

Hey RC,

I almost forgot about your post and was on my way to bed.

Anyway, I did not want to leave you hanging. I think we understand each other. I'm with you. I don't like it when for example people say things like "all Christians should vote", or "if your a Christian you should go to church on Sunday" or "all Christians should do this or that".. It's nonsense.

I have found on this forum that everyone shares some of their experiences (and most of their knowledge).
That's what life and learning is all about.

Broad brushes don't paint the best pictures. It's the fine little brushes that give us clarity.
Look forward to "seeing" your artwork sometime if you care to show us. :winking0071:

Rick

Charisma
11-23-2011, 03:26 AM
I suppose an analogous statement from me would be:

Indeed we are. Some to Light. Some to darkness.Hi RC,

It depends whether you are aligning Light and life, or Light and death. I wouldn't hastily agree with you, unless I had that information.

Charisma
11-23-2011, 03:28 AM
Hi Richard,


Death? Who is witnessing to death around here? Off with their heads! Ha ha.

Hopefully, you'll learn one day how to work out which is which. :)


This exchange between RC and Charisma evokes this excellent little couplet written by William Blake:

We both read the Bible day and night,
But you read black where I read white.William Blake is always provocative! That's a great quote from him.

I think it could be turned both outwards and inwards. For instance, he could be referring to how the 'black heart' is 'washed white' in the blood of Christ - as Wesley said in one of his hymns, (I wanted to quote it, but it's not online, and I'm not at home to look in my hymnbook.) so that when he sees a reference to sin, he is thinking of this glorious transformation - just as much as meaning that some people delight in wickedness, and have turned every injunction to justice on its head.

Charisma
11-23-2011, 03:53 AM
Hi RC,

I'm slowly catching up on the thread.

This that you said, is interesting. In fact, I find it fascinating.


I enjoy hearing people say things like, "God is great. I love Jesus. God showed me this or that. Jesus has done so much for me...". I think that's a beautiful thing...I really do. They're usually happy and optimistic people...good people. I don't like when someone tells me, "This is what God wants for us. This is how we should honor Jesus. It's up to us to develop our relationship with Jesus...".Now I know what Rick is getting at in his reply to you, because he's talking about an abuse of power within the Church. I agree with him on that, too. But your complaint is about the voice. You don't mind a sheep giving testimony, but you detest the Shepherd's direction to mankind. Did I understand you right?

RC Christian
11-23-2011, 07:29 AM
Hey RC,

I almost forgot about your post and was on my way to bed.

Anyway, I did not want to leave you hanging. I think we understand each other. I'm with you. I don't like it when for example people say things like "all Christians should vote", or "if your a Christian you should go to church on Sunday" or "all Christians should do this or that".. It's nonsense.

I have found on this forum that everyone shares some of their experiences (and most of their knowledge).
That's what life and learning is all about.

Broad brushes don't paint the best pictures. It's the fine little brushes that give us clarity.
Look forward to "seeing" your artwork sometime if you care to show us. :winking0071:

Rick


Good Morning heb13-13!

Almost Thanksgiving and I'm ready to feast! In advance, I hope everyone on the board has an excellent Thanksgiving and hopefully will be sharing it with some special people in their life. And, yeah, I hear you on the "all Christians" part. That use to always annoy me to...especially the "go to church on Sunday" bit. How little thought does it take to see how ridiculous that concept really is? I liked the approach that you had mentioned about gathering together...wherever...and I would say 'whenever'. What's so important about a designated building...or Sunday? My brother-in-law is a "southern" Southern Baptist minister, so you can imagine his world-view on topics like that, lol. His concept of the "Church" and the "House of God" is brick and mortar building, with a steeple on top and stain-glass windows...oh well.

'Seeing' my 'artwork'...Rick, you're not a traveling man, are you??? :winking0071:


Facing the East,
Frater Rosae Crucis

RC Christian
11-23-2011, 07:41 AM
Hi RC,

It depends whether you are aligning Light and life, or Light and death. I wouldn't hastily agree with you, unless I had that information.

Good morning Charisma!

By the way, I love you're username! It has...well...charisma! :thumb:

And, yes, my analogy could be better stated:

Life-Light-Knowledge and Wisdom-The Sun at the Summer Solstice-An Awakening

Death-Darkness-Ignorance and Foolishness-The Sun at the Winter Solstice-Slumber

Facing the East,
Frater Rosae Crucis

heb13-13
11-23-2011, 07:52 AM
Good Morning heb13-13!

Almost Thanksgiving and I'm ready to feast! In advance, I hope everyone on the board has an excellent Thanksgiving and hopefully will be sharing it with some special people in their life. And, yeah, I hear you on the "all Christians" part. That use to always annoy me to...especially the "go to church on Sunday" bit. How little thought does it take to see how ridiculous that concept really is? I liked the approach that you had mentioned about gathering together...wherever...and I would say 'whenever'. What's so important about a designated building...or Sunday? My brother-in-law is a "southern" Southern Baptist minister, so you can imagine his world-view on topics like that, lol. His concept of the "Church" and the "House of God" is brick and mortar building, with a steeple on top and stain-glass windows...oh well.

'Seeing' my 'artwork'...Rick, you're not a traveling man, are you??? :winking0071:

Facing the East,
Frater Rosae Crucis

Hi RC,

:signthankspin:

No, I'm just a sojourner.

"And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:" 1 Pe 1:17

Happy Thanksgiving to you too, RC. Be safe if you are travelling. (no pun intended).

Rick

"Looking unto Jesus"

RC Christian
11-23-2011, 08:47 AM
Hi RC,

I'm slowly catching up on the thread.

This that you said, is interesting. In fact, I find it fascinating.

Now I know what Rick is getting at in his reply to you, because he's talking about an abuse of power within the Church. I agree with him on that, too. But your complaint is about the voice. You don't mind a sheep giving testimony, but you detest the Shepherd's direction to mankind. Did I understand you right?

Yes, that's a good summary of it, sheep can testify all they want to. Sheep actually knock on my door to witness to me on an occasional basis, and I always refrain from challenging them on their belief and the basis of it. Just a hunch, but I bet Richard sinisterly enjoys that knock on his door...especially if he's board and in one of his cantankerous moods :winking0071: I even have had sheep as patients and employees that would testify to me.

I do like to hear other people's opinions. It's the spice of life!

Facing the East,
Frater Rosae Crucis

heb13-13
11-26-2011, 06:48 AM
Yes, that's a good summary of it, sheep can testify all they want to. Sheep actually knock on my door to witness to me on an occasional basis, and I always refrain from challenging them on their belief and the basis of it. Just a hunch, but I bet Richard sinisterly enjoys that knock on his door...especially if he's board and in one of his cantankerous moods :winking0071: I even have had sheep as patients and employees that would testify to me.

I do like to hear other people's opinions. It's the spice of life!

Facing the East,
Frater Rosae Crucis

Good morning,

Your words "sound" like you don't consider yourself as one of the Lord's sheep. Would you please clarify what you think sheep are?

Rick

RC Christian
11-26-2011, 11:52 AM
Good morning,

Your words "sound" like you don't consider yourself as one of the Lord's sheep. Would you please clarify what you think sheep are?

Rick



:sCo_hmmthink:

Ah... ha!!!


From Wikipedia:

"Sheep (Ovis aries) are quadrupedal, ruminant mammals typically kept as livestock. Like all ruminants, sheep are members of the order Artiodactyla, the even-toed ungulates. Although the name "sheep" applies to many species in the genus Ovis, in everyday usage it almost always refers to Ovis aries. Numbering a little over one billion, domestic sheep are also the most numerous species of sheep.
Sheep are most likely descended from the wild mouflon of Europe and Asia. One of the earliest animals to be domesticated for agricultural purposes, sheep are raised for fleece, meat (lamb, hogget or mutton) and milk. A sheep's wool is the most widely used animal fiber, and is usually harvested by shearing. Ovine meat is called lamb when from younger animals and mutton when from older ones. Sheep continue to be important for wool and meat today, and are also occasionally raised for pelts, as dairy animals, or as model organisms for science.
Sheep husbandry is practised throughout the majority of the inhabited world, and has been fundamental to many civilizations. In the modern era, Australia, New Zealand, the southern and central South American nations, and the British Isles are most closely associated with sheep production.
Sheep-raising has a large lexicon of unique terms which vary considerably by region and dialect. Use of the word sheep began in Middle English as a derivation of the Old English word scēap; it is both the singular and plural name for the animal. A group of sheep is called a flock, herd or mob. Adult female sheep are referred to as ewes, intact males as rams or occasionally tups, castrated males as wethers, and younger sheep as lambs. Many other specific terms for the various life stages of sheep exist, generally related to lambing, shearing, and age.
Being a key animal in the history of farming, sheep have a deeply entrenched place in human culture, and find representation in much modern language and symbology. As livestock, sheep are most-often associated with pastoral, Arcadian imagery. Sheep figure in many mythologies—such as the Golden Fleece—and major religions, especially the Abrahamic traditions. In both ancient and modern religious ritual, sheep are used as sacrificial animals."

112


:hysterical: ................. :lmbo:


Come on! You set yourself up for that one!:lol: Sorry man, just trying to be a "literalist". :winking0071:

heb13-13
11-26-2011, 02:59 PM
:sCo_hmmthink:

Ah... ha!!!


From Wikipedia:

"Sheep (Ovis aries) are quadrupedal, ruminant mammals typically kept as livestock. Like all ruminants, sheep are members of the order Artiodactyla, the even-toed ungulates. Although the name "sheep" applies to many species in the genus Ovis, in everyday usage it almost always refers to Ovis aries. Numbering a little over one billion, domestic sheep are also the most numerous species of sheep.
Sheep are most likely descended from the wild mouflon of Europe and Asia. One of the earliest animals to be domesticated for agricultural purposes, sheep are raised for fleece, meat (lamb, hogget or mutton) and milk. A sheep's wool is the most widely used animal fiber, and is usually harvested by shearing. Ovine meat is called lamb when from younger animals and mutton when from older ones. Sheep continue to be important for wool and meat today, and are also occasionally raised for pelts, as dairy animals, or as model organisms for science.
Sheep husbandry is practised throughout the majority of the inhabited world, and has been fundamental to many civilizations. In the modern era, Australia, New Zealand, the southern and central South American nations, and the British Isles are most closely associated with sheep production.
Sheep-raising has a large lexicon of unique terms which vary considerably by region and dialect. Use of the word sheep began in Middle English as a derivation of the Old English word scēap; it is both the singular and plural name for the animal. A group of sheep is called a flock, herd or mob. Adult female sheep are referred to as ewes, intact males as rams or occasionally tups, castrated males as wethers, and younger sheep as lambs. Many other specific terms for the various life stages of sheep exist, generally related to lambing, shearing, and age.
Being a key animal in the history of farming, sheep have a deeply entrenched place in human culture, and find representation in much modern language and symbology. As livestock, sheep are most-often associated with pastoral, Arcadian imagery. Sheep figure in many mythologies—such as the Golden Fleece—and major religions, especially the Abrahamic traditions. In both ancient and modern religious ritual, sheep are used as sacrificial animals."

112


:hysterical: ................. :lmbo:


Come on! You set yourself up for that one!:lol: Sorry man, just trying to be a "literalist". :winking0071:

Ah yes, I momentarily forgot you were a literalist.

Thanks for confirming you're not a sheep. :-)

Rick

RC Christian
11-26-2011, 03:03 PM
Ah yes, I momentarily forgot you were a literalist.

Thanks for confirming you're not a sheep. :-)

Rick

Anytime, my friend. :anim_32: