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View Full Version : "Masturbation can be a form of homosexuality" ~ Mark Driscoll



Richard Amiel McGough
10-20-2011, 12:09 PM
What man has never masturbated? Is Mark Driscoll saying that all men are gay?



'Masturbation can be a form of homosexuality because it is a sexual act that does not involve a woman. If a man were to masturbate while engaged in other forms of sexual intimacy with his wife then he would not be doing so in a homosexual way. However, any man who does so without his wife in the room is bordering on homosexuality activity, particularly if he’s watching himself in a mirror and being turned on by his own male body.' - Pastor Mark Driscoll of Seattle’s Mars Hill Church, from Porn-Again Christian: A Frank Discussion on Pornography & Masturbation for God’s Men (http://theresurgence.com/books/porn_again_christian)


This is making a big hit (http://www.dangerousminds.net/comments/masturbation_can_be_a_form_of_homosexuality_says_w acky_christian_minister/) in the blogosphere.

heb13-13
10-20-2011, 01:57 PM
What man has never masturbated? Is Mark Driscoll saying that all men are gay?



This is making a big hit (http://www.dangerousminds.net/comments/masturbation_can_be_a_form_of_homosexuality_says_w acky_christian_minister/) in the blogosphere.

Maybe he is laying the groundwork for a further news release...:woah:

Richard Amiel McGough
10-20-2011, 02:09 PM
Maybe he is laying the groundwork for a further news release...:woah:
Of course ... its hard to imagine someone so focused on homosexuality not being in the closet. And there are so many outrageous examples of closeted preachers who focus on it. My favorite example is George Rekers who has written Christian anti-gay books and was a board member on the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH). He got caught with a young man he picked up on "rentboy.com" :hysterical:

His excuse? He was using their time together to "preach the gospel of Jesus Christ." And "Lucien" (his 19 year old purchased boyfriend) was needed to help "lift his luggage." And so George has given us a new euphemism for gay sex: Would you like me to lift your luggage? Check out http://liftmyluggage.org/.

CWH
11-09-2011, 11:10 AM
I don't see masturbation as something sinful or as a homosexual activity. Masturbation is a form of self-sex sometimes known also as solo-sex. We can thus define a term for masturbation as "autosexuality". It is considered a normal acceptable behavior to release pent-up sexual urge. Even some animals are noted to masturbate. An online dictionary describes masturbation as thus:

the stimulation or manipulation of one's own genitals, especially to orgasm; sexual self-gratification.

I would thus define 3 types of sexuality:
1. Autosexuality or Solosexuality : self sex or masturbation
2. Homosexuality : sex with the same sex
3. Heterosexuality : sex with the opposite sex.

May God Bless us. :pray:

Richard Amiel McGough
11-09-2011, 11:43 AM
I don't see masturbation as something sinful or as a homosexual activity. Masturbation is a form of self-sex sometimes known also as solo-sex. We can thus define a term for masturbation as "autosexuality". It is considered a normal acceptable behavior to release pent-up sexual urge. Even some animals are noted to masturbate. An online dictionary describes masturbation as thus:

the stimulation or manipulation of one's own genitals, especially to orgasm; sexual self-gratification.

I would thus define 3 types of sexuality:
1. Autosexuality or Solosexuality : self sex or masturbation
2. Homosexuality : sex with the same sex
3. Heterosexuality : sex with the opposite sex.

May God Bless us. :pray:
I agree. :thumb:

Masturbation is, in fact, a very healthy thing for a person who has no sexual partner.

And this shows, yet again, how religion has messed with people's heads and made them unhealthy. How much angst have Catholic teens suffered, "knowing" that they would be cast into outer darkness to suffer God's wrath for eternity because the masturbated? Many Catholics believe that masturbation is a mortal sin, which means it will send you to hell! :eek:

And now we've got a Protestant messing with those poor people's hearts and minds, teaching them that what is good is really evil.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

jce
11-09-2011, 02:35 PM
So... here's the question: What is that man imagining as he indulges himself in this form of self gratification... his girlfriend, his wife, his neighbor's wife, the porn queen? The implications are somewhat significant if Jesus is to be taken seriously. (Matt 5:28)

Richard Amiel McGough
11-09-2011, 02:52 PM
So... here's the question: What is that man imagining as he indulges himself in this form of self gratification... his girlfriend, his wife, his neighbor's wife, the porn queen? The implications are somewhat significant if Jesus is to be taken seriously. (Matt 5:28)
I understand your point, but what alternative are you suggesting? God knows it is simply impossible to stop teenage boys from masturbating. He designed them that way. The physical urge is too great and too natural and too normal and too healthy. Even the threat of eternal damnation stops only a tiny few, even amongst those who truly fear it. I think this demonstrates one of two things: Either the teaching of Matthew 5:28 is being misinterpreted, or it is wrong.

I would go with the "misinterpreted" option. It sounds like typical hyperbole attributed to Jesus, as when he advised folks to gouge out their eye if it caused them to sin.

And consider this: A teenage boy with a "loaded gun" is going to get an involuntary erection when he looks at any woman passing by on the street. It could even lead to real, rather than imagined, adultery. This would be a lot less likely if he discharges his gun before going out. Then he would probably find it easier to look at women as sisters rather than sex objects.

And we also need to remember that these kinds of sexual hangups were pretty common amongst folks of the first century. They were very superstitious people, and who knows what crazy ideas they had about the "wrongful" emission of semen?

jce
11-09-2011, 04:04 PM
I understand your point, but what alternative are you suggesting?

Hey there Richard... you just keep em coming don't ya. I can barely catch my breath and your onto another topic. I'm not complaining mind you, cause I really am enjoying these brain teasers!

Well, to the point, I'm not suggesting a solution to this issue, if indeed, it needs solving. But what I do take away from this topic, is that man has a nature to desire stuff and it manifests itself in numerous ways (too numerous to list). Just come up with a new product, target your market and then get on with the promotion, and you will quickly find humans have turned it into a necessity (or desire if you will). You know the saying; "When a luxery becomes a necessity, we lose the ability to live contentedly". Perhaps this is why Commandment #3 is relevant. For example, I didn't know I wanted a more powerful computer, GPS, Corvette, Condo on the Beach, PWC, ATV DVR, BMW, 4WD, viagra (complete with 4 hr erection), etc. until I saw it in the magazine or on the digital image maker in my living room. This stuff just keeps on coming. Where will it end? Nuclear holocaust? Somebody is gonna get mad that he can't have what the other ruler has, and he is going to get it at any cost, even adultery.

It's just another indication that there is a Creator who has placed eternity in the hearts of men. Of course, we men are always trying to "swap it out" for something more contemporary. We refer to it as "short term vision".

I do believe that a husband who routinely indulges himself runs the risk of depriving his wife of her pleasure. Porn contributes to this over indulgence and leads captive men into many other detrimental behavior patterns. Of course, if this act is good, then porn makes it better. Wouldn't you agree?

I do tend to ramble a bit don't I.

John

Richard Amiel McGough
11-09-2011, 05:32 PM
Hey there Richard... you just keep em coming don't ya. I can barely catch my breath and your onto another topic. I'm not complaining mind you, cause I really am enjoying these brain teasers!

Yeah - lot's of interesting conversations going on. I find it very stimulating to my mind. And research shows that a stimulated brain actually grows more neurons and thickens their myelin so they transmit signals faster. The results of workouts for the brain are not dissimilar to workouts for the body.



Well, to the point, I'm not suggesting a solution to this issue, if indeed, it needs solving. But what I do take away from this topic, is that man has a nature to desire stuff and it manifests itself in numerous ways (too numerous to list). Just come up with a new product, target your market and then get on with the promotion, and you will quickly find humans have turned it into a necessity (or desire if you will). You know the saying; "When a luxery becomes a necessity, we lose the ability to live contentedly". Perhaps this is why Commandment #3 is relevant. For example, I didn't know I wanted a more powerful computer, GPS, Corvette, Condo on the Beach, PWC, ATV DVR, BMW, 4WD, viagra (complete with 4 hr erection), etc. until I saw it in the magazine or on the digital image maker in my living room. This stuff just keeps on coming. Where will it end? Nuclear holocaust? Somebody is gonna get mad that he can't have what the other ruler has, and he is going to get it at any cost, even adultery.

There are many people, myself included, who are not much taken in by all that commercialism, consumerism, and materialism.



It's just another indication that there is a Creator who has placed eternity in the hearts of men. Of course, we men are always trying to "swap it out" for something more contemporary. We refer to it as "short term vision".

How do commercialism, consumerism, and materialism indicate that?



I do believe that a husband who routinely indulges himself runs the risk of depriving his wife of her pleasure. Porn contributes to this over indulgence and leads captive men into many other detrimental behavior patterns. Of course, if this act is good, then porn makes it better. Wouldn't you agree?

I do tend to ramble a bit don't I.

John
Yes, you do tend to ramble. But that's a sign of an active mind. I'm glad you've got something so say. :thumb:

And I'm glad that you finally got back to the topic at hand. Folks who masturbate to the point of neglecting their spouse have a disorder, or an unresponsive spouse, or some other problem. I think such abnormalities are not particularly relevant to the case at hand, which is the moral status of normal, healthy, masturbation.

As for porn - ha! What a loaded question! The effect of porn on the brain was the subject of a chapter in a book about neuroplasticity I just finished called The Brain That Changes Itself. Excellent read, btw. The problem is that porn forms an addictive feedback loop that reprograms the brain in a way that mimics drug addiction and the porn addict needs more and more extreme pornography to get the same "hit" and this leads quickly into a cesspool I need not describe in any detail here. It is a pathological aberration of normal healthy masturbation and so is not particularly relevant.

If masturbation were a real moral problem, I wouldn't think you would have to look for proof in such pathological manifestations.

Great chatting!

Richard

cer1056
11-09-2011, 06:01 PM
The Bible answers most major questions in life including issues of sexuality - such as homosexuality and masturbation. This answer requires a dilligent study!

The answer for men regarding masturbation is basically answered in the following verse:

(1 John 3:9 KJV) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The nature of homosexuality is the preversion of natural sexual desire for the same sex - male or female.

(Rom 1:26 KJV) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

(Rom 1:27 KJV) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

Bestiality is the preversion of the desire to have sex with other forms of animals.

The Bible also tells us the root issue of sexual sin, it is contain in the following verse:

(Mat 5:28 KJV) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The following verse tells us that it is the intent - that is the sin -- an act of the mind - our evil thoughts.

(1 Cor 10:6 KJV) Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Conclusion(s):
1) The sin is A) in the thought (desire as lust) and then B) in the action.
2) The question lies in "How do we change?"
3) The change must take place in the Heart of a man - so again It begs the Question "What is the Heart?"

In the other site response in this Forum today (the hidden manna by gilgal) I asked each person to answer the question "What is the Heart?"

The secret of Faith relies in the True answer - "What is the Heart of a Man?"

You will NEVER truly understand Christianity if you cannot really answer this question - in real true and above all PRACTICAL terms.
Reg

Richard Amiel McGough
11-09-2011, 07:28 PM
The Bible answers most major questions in life including issues of sexuality - such as homosexuality and masturbation. This answer requires a dilligent study!

The answer for men regarding masturbation is basically answered in the following verse:

(1 John 3:9 KJV) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

:hysterical:

Thanks man! This thread certainly needed a little levity.

For those who don't get cer1056's joke, the "seed" mentioned in that verse refers to the Word of God, not the ejaculate that squirts out when someone masturbates.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

cer1056
11-09-2011, 09:20 PM
Would it not be correct that the Bible demands spiritual purity, that this purity is of the Mind (thoughts, desires), Body, and emotions?

My understanding is that the Bible is to be interptreted literally if it makes sense to do so.

(1 John 3:9 KJV) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Look at the literal meaning of the word seed from the Strong's Concordance used in this case:

G4690 σπέρμα sperma sper'-mah From G4687; somethng sown, that is, seed (including the male 'sperm'); by implication offspring; specifically a remnant (figuratively as if kept over for planting):—issue, seed.

While it may not be popular - this verse does mean - Stop messing around sexually if your not married! We are to be spiritual virgins in mind and body.



For those who don't get cer1056's joke, the "seed" mentioned in that verse refers to the Word of God, not the ejaculate that squirts out when someone masturbates.

(1 Peter 1:23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Reply: I'm not so sure that "spiritual Seed" makes to much sense in the context your suggesting. But as physical seed - its makes perfect sense.

I do find it interesting though that the issue of defining the Heart was ignored.

Reg

Richard Amiel McGough
11-09-2011, 09:36 PM
Would it not be correct that the Bible demands spiritual purity, that this purity is of the Mind (thoughts, desires), Body, and emotions?

Sure. And what is impure about relieving yourself when you have no mate? If you don't relieve yourself, will you not be more prone to sin by look and lusting after women? Therefore, masturbation is good and helpful to keep yourself pure.



My understanding is that the Bible is to be interptreted literally if it makes sense to do so.

Where did you get that idea? It is guaranteed to lead to gross errors. For example, it is "possible" to interpret Christ's statement that we should gouge out our eyes literally - but it would be foolish to do so. The "literal principle" is the most absurd and misleading "hermeneutic principle" ever proposed. The Bible is a spiritual book. It is the furthest thing from "literal" that I could imagine.



(1 John 3:9 KJV) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Look at the literal meaning of the word seed from the Strong's Concordance used in this case:

G4690 σπέρμα sperma sper'-mah From G4687; somethng sown, that is, seed (including the male “sperm”); by implication offspring; specifically a remnant (figuratively as if kept over for planting):—issue, seed.

While it may not be popular - this verse does mean - Stop messing around sexually if your not married! We are to be spiritual virgins in mind and body.

And why did you leave out the rest of the definition that contradicts your false claim? Did you really think you could deceive anyone so simply?

4690 sperma {sper'-mah}
Meaning: 1) from which a plant germinates 1a) the seed i.e. the grain or kernel which contains within itself the germ of the future plants 1a1) of the grains or kernels sown 1b) metaph. a seed i.e. a residue, or a few survivors reserved as the germ of a new race (just as seed is kept from the harvest for the sowing) 2) the semen virile 2a) the product of this semen, seed, children, offspring, progeny 2b) family, race, posterity 2c) whatever possesses vital force or life giving power 2c1) of divine energy of the Holy Spirit operating within the soul by which we are regenerated



For those who don't get cer1056's joke, the "seed" mentioned in that verse refers to the Word of God, not the ejaculate that squirts out when someone masturbates.

(1 Peter 1:23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Reply: I'm not so sure that "spiritual Seed" makes to much sense in the context your suggesting. But as physical seed - its makes perfect sense.

Oh really now? It makes perfect sense does it? Then let's put your interpretation in the verse and see what it is "really" telling us:

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin [masturbate]; for his seed (sperma) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Oh yeah baby ... that's what the Bible is "obviously" teaching in this verse. Who ever is born of God does not masturbate! Indeed, they aren't even able to masturbate, so now we have finally found a test for True Believers! Anyone who is able to masturbate is not a True Believer! Brilliant! :lmbo:

And by your interpretation, Jesus is sperm!

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed (sperma)were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds (sperma), as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed (sperma), which is Christ.
And so are all Christians!

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed (sperma), and heirs according to the promise.
Oh yeah baby! We're all sperm. Glad we got that cleared up.

Oh, and I just realized that a Christian can't ever have any kids, because "his seed remaineth in him!"

cer1056
11-10-2011, 12:30 AM
Would it not be correct that the Bible demands spiritual purity, that this purity is of the Mind (thoughts, desires), Body, and emotions?


Sure. And what is impure about relieving yourself when you have no mate? If you don't relieve yourself, will you not be more prone to sin by look and lusting after women? Therefore, masturbation is good and helpful to keep yourself pure.

Based on that logic - you must think that God must owe Sodom and Gomorah an appology.

My understanding is that the Bible is to be interptreted literally if it makes sense to do so.


Where did you get that idea? It is guaranteed to lead to gross errors. For example, it is "possible" to interpret Christ's statement that we should gouge out our eyes literally - but it would be foolish to do so. The "literal principle" is the most absurd and misleading "hermeneutic principle" ever proposed. The Bible is a spiritual book. It is the furthest thing from "literal" that I could imagine.

The Bible says he is a God of truth that cannot lie. I don't see any room for Moral Ambiguity. The ten commandments were COMMANDMENTS - not if it seems right of feels right individual. We live in the age of the church of Laodecia - the Luke warm church where secular humanism as moral relavitism runs rampant.


Where did you get that idea? It is guaranteed to lead to gross errors. For example, it is "possible" to interpret Christ's statement that we should gouge out our eyes literally - but it would be foolish to do so. The "literal principle" is the most absurd and misleading "hermeneutic principle" ever proposed. The Bible is a spiritual book. It is the furthest thing from "literal" that I could imagine.[/QUOTE]


Now I understand why Faith doesn't work for you. You can never truly understand the secret of faith coming from a background perspective of relativism.

This end time period witnesses the restoration of the ancient Babylonian (literal meaning -Confusion) system.



[QUOTE]And why did you leave out the rest of the definition that contradicts your false claim? Did you really think you could deceive anyone so simply?

I didn't leave out anything - I copied the meaning in the electronic version of the Strong's Concordance that I have EXACTLY. Where did you get your version? ...and why do you accusitorilly ass/u/me that I deliberately did?


If you understood biblical faith, it gives a person the power to master and control those strong physical urges. Without faith we are victims of our own flesh.


(1 John 5:4 KJV) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

This verse means that you have to have Faith to overcome the world - it is quite literal.

You have to be of the spirit to walk in the spirit.

In this age as any other - the wisdom of men is foolishness before God.

Men turn good to evil, and evil to good in there relativism. The bible refers to this moral relativism of men when it speaks of the traditions of men that make the word of God of non-effect.

I am not saying this to criticise or fight with you, Truth must come first and foremost. God's Truth never changes even as God never changes - there is no relavitism.

Truth must come first and foremost in all things or we are lost to the confusions of personal relativism.

In Truth we are able to learn and utilize the Power of faith to give us victory over the world (and the flesh).

Too many people in their ignorance (we are all ignorant in something), and their need to be right at any cost (immaturity), throw the baby out with the bath water.

Moral relativism is just one more way to enter the maze, a house of mirrors, the mad house of confusion, where the path is so obscured there is no way out.

Reg

Richard Amiel McGough
11-10-2011, 10:08 AM
Would it not be correct that the Bible demands spiritual purity, that this purity is of the Mind (thoughts, desires), Body, and emotions?



Sure. And what is impure about relieving yourself when you have no mate? If you don't relieve yourself, will you not be more prone to sin by look and lusting after women? Therefore, masturbation is good and helpful to keep yourself pure.

Based on that logic - you must think that God must owe Sodom and Gomorah an appology.

That's a non sequitur. The things done in Sodom and Gommorah were violence against other people. Masturbation is nothing like that.






My understanding is that the Bible is to be interptreted literally if it makes sense to do so.

Where did you get that idea? It is guaranteed to lead to gross errors. For example, it is "possible" to interpret Christ's statement that we should gouge out our eyes literally - but it would be foolish to do so. The "literal principle" is the most absurd and misleading "hermeneutic principle" ever proposed. The Bible is a spiritual book. It is the furthest thing from "literal" that I could imagine.

The Bible says he is a God of truth that cannot lie. I don't see any room for Moral Ambiguity. The ten commandments were COMMANDMENTS - not if it seems right of feels right individual. We live in the age of the church of Laodecia - the Luke warm church where secular humanism as moral relavitism runs rampant.

Nothing I said implies moral relativism.

It sounds like you are repeating religious sound bites without any real comprehension of the issues involved.




Where did you get that idea? It is guaranteed to lead to gross errors. For example, it is "possible" to interpret Christ's statement that we should gouge out our eyes literally - but it would be foolish to do so. The "literal principle" is the most absurd and misleading "hermeneutic principle" ever proposed. The Bible is a spiritual book. It is the furthest thing from "literal" that I could imagine.
Now I understand why Faith doesn't work for you. You can never truly understand the secret of faith coming from a background perspective of relativism.

Ha! You sure jump to false conclusions quick! I have not said a word about moral "relativism." You really need to learn to look before you leap or you'll never know where you are gonna land.

:chores037:
I would think you would try to be accurate in your writings since you are so concerned with "absolute truth" and all that kind of stuff. It sure isn't showing in your posts, dude!



This end time period witnesses the restoration of the ancient Babylonian (literal meaning -Confusion) system.

That's not true. We are not in the "end times." That's a religious delusion that's been going on for decades now. Folks were preaching the rapture was sure to happen back in the 70s and then the 80s and then the 90s and then ... you get the picutre. You've been hoodwinked with a mountain of ludicrous crap called "end times prophecy" made up by people with an average IQ of 93 or so.




And why did you leave out the rest of the definition that contradicts your false claim? Did you really think you could deceive anyone so simply?
I didn't leave out anything - I copied the meaning in the electronic version of the Strong's Concordance that I have EXACTLY. Where did you get your version? ...and why do you accusitorilly ass/u/me that I deliberately did?

I'm sorry. I assumed you did it deliberately because it didn't occur to me that you could be so ignorant of the true meaning of words in the Bible. Anyone commenting on the Bible with all the "absolute authority" like you do should at least of have the basic knowledge of the meaning of words! What makes you think you have the requisite knowledge to speak authoritatively about the meaning of the Bible?



If you understood biblical faith, it gives a person the power to master and control those strong physical urges. Without faith we are victims of our own flesh.
That's another relgious delusion. You can't even understand the meaning of the word "seed" in 1 John 3:9 and you want to pontificate about the superpowers acquired by "biblical faith." Maybe you should apply some of you supre-faith to looking up words in the dictionary! :p




(1 John 5:4 KJV) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
This verse means that you have to have Faith to overcome the world - it is quite literal.

Oh really? Have you literally overcome the world? Are you now literally the dictator of the planet? You don't even know the meaning of the word "literal" do you?



In this age as any other - the wisdom of men is foolishness before God.

So now you want to justify your ignorance of the defintions of words by calling it the "foolishness of God?" :hysterical:



Men turn good to evil, and evil to good in there relativism. The bible refers to this moral relativism of men when it speaks of the traditions of men that make the word of God of non-effect.

Like your own "tradition" that says masturbation is a sin? There's not a word in the Bible that states your doctrine you know. So you are doing the very thing you accuse of. Maybe you should look up the word "hypocrisy."



I am not saying this to criticise or fight with you, Truth must come first and foremost. God's Truth never changes even as God never changes - there is no relavitism.

I have not said a word abour "moral relativism." Where did you get that idea?



Truth must come first and foremost in all things or we are lost to the confusions of personal relativism.

Like the definition of the word "seed?" Like the your crazy interpretion of 1 John 3:9?

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not masturbate; for his seed (sperma) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
I find it outrageously ironic that the folks who shout loudest about the importance of "TRUTH" are the very people who are furthest from it.



In Truth we are able to learn and utilize the Power of faith to give us victory over the world (and the flesh).

Too many people in their ignorance (we are all ignorant in something), and their need to be right at any cost (immaturity), throw the baby out with the bath water.

Moral relativism is just one more way to enter the maze, a house of mirrors, the mad house of confusion, where the path is so obscured there is no way out.

Reg
The "mad house of confusion" is indeed a confusion of language. It is ironic that your confused teachings arise for your ignorance of the meaning of words.

jce
11-10-2011, 11:50 AM
That's a non sequitur. The things done in Sodom and Gommorah were violence against other people. Masturbation is nothing like that. Like your own "tradition" that says masturbation is a sin? There's not a word in the Bible that states your doctrine you know.

Richard, you certainly have a talent for transforming the simple to the complex. If we reduce the act to nothing more than a manifestation of the lust of the flesh, and Paul commands; "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh" (Galatians 5:15-17), it seems to be a settled topic, unless of course, one does not accept the authority of the scriptures. In that case... anything goes.

John

Richard Amiel McGough
11-10-2011, 12:03 PM
That's a non sequitur. The things done in Sodom and Gommorah were violence against other people. Masturbation is nothing like that. Like your own "tradition" that says masturbation is a sin? There's not a word in the Bible that states your doctrine you know.
Richard, you certainly have a talent for transforming the simple to the complex. If we reduce the act to nothing more than a manifestation of the lust of the flesh, and Paul commands; "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh" (Galatians 5:15-17), it seems to be a settled topic, unless of course, one does not accept the authority of the scriptures. In that case... anything goes.

John
That's funny - most people say the opposite about my writing.

If we "reduce the act to nothing more than" anything, it should be reduced to a normal body function like taking a dump. This is because it is a strong physical urge that will frequently force itself out in nocturnal emissions if ignored. You have given no reason a person should choose to suffer with this condition given that it can be quickly resolved in a fashion practiced by all humans who have ever lived on this planet. If anything, I would say it is your religion that has created confusion and complexity around an issue that should be simple and clear to all healthy adults.

jce
11-10-2011, 03:24 PM
That's funny - most people say the opposite about my writing.

If we "reduce the act to nothing more than" anything, it should be reduced to a normal body function like taking a dump. This is because it is a strong physical urge that will frequently force itself out in nocturnal emissions if ignored. You have given no reason a person should choose to suffer with this condition given that it can be quickly resolved in a fashion practiced by all humans who have ever lived on this planet. If anything, I would say it is your religion that has created confusion and complexity around an issue that should be simple and clear to all healthy adults.

Okay, I'll accept the implication that it is my "religion". Perhaps you or whosoever will, might try incorporating this verse into your imagination the next time you indulge in your solo sexual gratification: "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things (Philippians 4:7-9). You just might find a sinful thought creeping in at some point prior to conclusion (or climax if you will).

John

Richard Amiel McGough
11-10-2011, 03:42 PM
Okay, I'll accept the implication that it is my "religion". Perhaps you or whosoever will, might try incorporating this verse into your imagination the next time you indulge in your solo sexual gratification: "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things (Philippians 4:7-9). You just might find a sinful thought creeping in at some point prior to conclusion (or climax if you will).

John
Nobody is suggesting that we should make it a spiritual practice to "think upon" (i.e. meditate upon) taking a dump or masturbating. I think you have misapplied that verse.

As for "sinful thoughts creeping in" - that will already be happening before a healthy person becomes aware of the need or desire to masturbate. But if they choose to simply suppress their natural desires, they will most likely find themselves having a much larger fixation on "sinful thoughts." Pretty much everyone seems to know this fact about the human mind. When authentic, natural, and healthy desires are suppressed, they will become more and more insistent. Indeed, there is a vast body of literature discussing the psychology of repressed desires. Here is a snippet from the wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_repression):


Psychological repression, also psychic repression or simply repression, is the psychological attempt by an individual to repel one's own desires and impulses towards pleasurable instincts by excluding the desire from one's consciousness and holding or subduing it in the unconscious. Repression plays a major role in many mental illnesses, and in the psyche of average people.

Religions that tend to cause psychological disorders in people are not healthy, and I see no reason to think they are "of God."

jce
11-10-2011, 03:43 PM
This is because it is a strong physical urge that will frequently force itself out in nocturnal emissions if ignored.

In that case... it would be an "involuntary" act. While awake you can make a willful choice. I would not compare it to an excretion which is a necessary result from the digestive system. In that scenario, if you do not to choose to take care of your business in a timely fashion, and you are stuck on the subway due to some un-forseen event, somebody's gonna be offended.

John

Richard Amiel McGough
11-10-2011, 04:00 PM
In that case... it would be an "involuntary" act. While awake you can make a willful choice. I would not compare it to an excretion which is a necessary result from the digestive system. In that scenario, if you do not to choose to take care of your business in a timely fashion, and you are stuck on the subway due to some un-forseen event, somebody's gonna be offended.

John
Yes, of course there are significant differences between the two biological functions. But that does not mean that we should wait for the body to act without our volition. We are intelligent creatures, we should use our minds and make choices. What benefit would there be to suffer with the discomfort? And besides, if we go about with an unsatisfied natural urge constantly arising in our body we run the risk that it may incline us towards real sin, such as "going to far" with a girl who is willing but whom we don't really like, but do so anyway because our unreleased urge clouds our judgment. I can testify from my youthful indiscretions that such situations were much less likely to occur if I had released the pressure myself. It's like that scene in "Something about Mary" - you don't go on a date with a loaded gun! :lol:

CWH
11-11-2011, 08:51 PM
Okay, I'll accept the implication that it is my "religion". Perhaps you or whosoever will, might try incorporating this verse into your imagination the next time you indulge in your solo sexual gratification: "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things (Philippians 4:7-9). You just might find a sinful thought creeping in at some point prior to conclusion (or climax if you will).

John

Is masturbation always done out of lust? Animals such as monkeys, apes and even elephants did it also. I don't think they have the awareness of lust. Many people masturbated for the pleasure; is there anything wrong to indulge once in a while for pleasure? I remember in my teenage years, nocturnal emissions occurred usually from sexual dreams, is this call lust or sexual fantasies? And I wasn't indulged in pornography! Even if masturbation was done out of watching pornography, is this lust or sexual fantasies? We should be aware of the differences between lust, sexual fantasies and pleasure.

BTW, nocturnal emission is a natural process in boys just like menstruation is for girls. It is a natural process of getting rid of old sperms so that new ones can be produced. Even if you don't do it, nature will somehow take its course. Nocturnal emission can be embarassing if noted by own siblings and parents and I was told and I believe so, that masturbation reduces the number of nocturnal emissions.

May God Bless us. :pray: