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Abigail
10-28-2007, 01:42 PM
I read something about the Gospel of Mark today which said 'The nineteen miracles recorded in this short book....'

Isn't Mark on spoke 19 ...has anyone counted the miracles recorded in Mark?I admit I haven't ...yet

Victor
10-28-2007, 05:28 PM
I read something about the Gospel of Mark today which said 'The nineteen miracles recorded in this short book....'

Isn't Mark on spoke 19 ...has anyone counted the miracles recorded in Mark?I admit I haven't ...yet

Hi Abigail!

You are correct! You are reminding me of the my early days with the Bible Wheel. When I first learned of the Wheel, I had an intuition and this was one of the things that I went to check. I counted exactly 19 miracles!! :) There is also reference to 'many healings' performed by Christ, but the specific miracle accounts total 19.

Curiously a few days ago I was organizing my stuff and found some old sheets with some of my first notes about the Bible Wheel. And there it was - there was a page with the list of all those miracles. It is right here on my table!

God bless,
Victor

Richard Amiel McGough
10-28-2007, 05:43 PM
I read something about the Gospel of Mark today which said 'The nineteen miracles recorded in this short book....'

Isn't Mark on spoke 19 ...has anyone counted the miracles recorded in Mark?I admit I haven't ...yet
Ah ... now you are thinking a lot like me! I notice those little "coincidences" too. But when it comes to counting things like how many miracles or healings or parables folks always come up with different numbers because there always seems to be some ambiguities. So I googled "nineteen miracles" and the first link brings up this article about Mark:

http://www.koinonia-fellowship.org/Introduction_to_Mark.htm

Here's a quote:



Action-Packed

As mentioned earlier, Mark’s gospel does not emphasize words or long sermons; but rather flows from one action-packed event to another. Unlike the other Gospels, Mark records only four parables and nineteen miracles. Mark changes from one event to another by frequenting the use of the Greek word Euthus. This colorful word, which is used forty-seven times in this Gospel, describes 'directly, at once, soon, as soon as, forthwith, immediately, shortly, straightway' (Strong 33, 1112).

Of course, I like that quote because the section in the Bible Wheel book concerning Mark is called "The Gospel of Action (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Quph_Mark.asp)" and links to the Quph KeyWord "qal" meaning "swift" like a runner. It really is a powerful connection. But the number of miracles? I don't know because I haven't counted them. So always the skeptic, I googled "eighteen miracles" and found other articles about Mark, such as this one:

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/mark.htm

Here's a quote:


The Gospel was probably written in Rome for a primarily Gentile audience, to convince them that Jesus of Nazareth, in spite of his sufferings and death, was the Son of God. It has been called a Gospel of action because it records 18 miracles (similar in count to Matthew and Luke) but only 4 parables (Matthew includes 18 parables and Luke 19). Jesus' victory over evil through his deeds and death receives emphasis. Much material in Mark is repeated in Matthew and in Luke, leading most scholars to conclude that Mark was written first and used independently by the other writers.
I really like this one, because I didn't even have to add the bold to the phrase "Gospel of action" - its in the original article. And that pretty much exemplifies the kinds of links that I put in the Bible Wheel book. They are super obvious and recognized by everyone. Anybody who knows anything about the Bible should imediately recognized the validity of the Bible Wheel .... or so it seems to me. It really is a mystery how its been out there on the internet since 2001 and its still relatively unknown.

So anyway, thanks for the tip! There might be something to it - I'll just have to count the miracles and find out why there is a difference. It certainly is interesting that folks link the high frequency of miracles to the "action" nature of the Gospel. I have a tingle in the back of my head that suggests there is some inherent connection between Quph and Miracles but I can't quite recall what it might be right now.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
10-28-2007, 05:48 PM
Hi Abigail!

You are correct! You are reminding me of the my early days with the Bible Wheel. When I first learned of the Wheel, I had an intuition and this was one of the things that I went to check. I counted exactly 19 miracles!! :) There is also reference to 'many healings' performed by Christ, but the specific miracle accounts total 19.
Hi Victor!

I'm gonna count them, and also see what others have counted so I can get an idea of the validity of the count. Could you post your list?

Also, if you have any idea of the connection between Quph and miracles, please share it.


Curiously a few days ago I was organizing my stuff and found some old sheets with some of my first notes about the Bible Wheel. And there it was - there was a page with the list of all those miracles. It is right here on my table!

God bless,
Victor
Ah! The blessed synchronicity of God who "worketh all things after the counsel of His will" (Eph 1:11) - with perfect timing I might add!

Richard

Abigail
10-29-2007, 01:24 AM
Also, if you have any idea of the connection between Quph and miracles, please share it.

Richard

Mark 10:24-27 'And the disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." And they were even more astonished and said to Him, "Then who can be saved?" Looking upon them Jesus said "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."'

Victor
10-31-2007, 01:21 PM
Ah ... now you are thinking a lot like me! I notice those little "coincidences" too.
Me too. It's good to keep the eye open to them. They sometimes give useful clues.


But when it comes to counting things like how many miracles or healings or parables folks always come up with different numbers because there always seems to be some ambiguities.
That's a real problem. Sometimes it is not clear how it should be counted. For example, Mark 16:9 says that, after His resurrection, Jesus "appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils." Should this be counted as a miracle? Thus it is important to have some kind of criterion to perform the counting. To me for instance that miracle does not count for the simple fact that it didn't take place as part of the story. It is just a reference to something that happened.



So I googled "nineteen miracles" and the first link brings up this article about Mark:

http://www.koinonia-fellowship.org/Introduction_to_Mark.htm

Here's a quote:


Of course, I like that quote because the section in the Bible Wheel book concerning Mark is called "The Gospel of Action (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Quph_Mark.asp)" and links to the Quph KeyWord "qal" meaning "swift" like a runner. It really is a powerful connection. But the number of miracles? I don't know because I haven't counted them. So always the skeptic, I googled "eighteen miracles" and found other articles about Mark, such as this one:

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/mark.htm

Here's a quote:


I really like this one, because I didn't even have to add the bold to the phrase "Gospel of action" - its in the original article. And that pretty much exemplifies the kinds of links that I put in the Bible Wheel book. They are super obvious and recognized by everyone. Anybody who knows anything about the Bible should imediately recognized the validity of the Bible Wheel .... or so it seems to me. It really is a mystery how its been out there on the internet since 2001 and its still relatively unknown.

People just don't bother. :rolleyes:


So anyway, thanks for the tip! There might be something to it - I'll just have to count the miracles and find out why there is a difference. It certainly is interesting that folks link the high frequency of miracles to the "action" nature of the Gospel. I have a tingle in the back of my head that suggests there is some inherent connection between Quph and Miracles but I can't quite recall what it might be right now.

Richard


Hi Victor!

I'm gonna count them, and also see what others have counted so I can get an idea of the validity of the count. Could you post your list?

Also, if you have any idea of the connection between Quph and miracles, please share it.


Here's a quick list, following the narrative sequence:

1. Man with an unclean spirit
2. Peter's mother-in-law
3. The leper
4. Man sick with the palsy
5. Man with withered hand
6. Calming the tempest
7. Gadarene man with an unclean spirit
8. Woman with an issue of blood
9. Daughter of Jairus
10. The feeding of the 5,000
11. Walking on water
12. Daughter of Canaanite woman
13. The deaf-mute
14. The feeding of the 4,000
15. Blind man in Bethsaida
16. The transfiguration
17. Boy with a dumb spirit
18. The blind Bartimaeus
19. The withered fig tree

It seems reasonable to me. I could comment a little more on the counting criteria but I'll leave it for another time.

I do see a clear link between Quph and Miracles! It is independent of the number of miracles in Mark, but I think I possibly made the association long ago because of the 19 miracles.

Webster's definition of miracle is:



1. Literally, a wonder or wonderful thing; but appropriately,
2. In theology, an event or effect contrary to the established constitution and course of things, or a deviation from the known laws of nature; a supernatural event.

Quph represents physical things and so relates to Nature. (Note Quph = 19 (http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/GR_19.asp) = The Earth). Rabbi Munk gave the traditional Rabbinic interpretation of this letter:


The most obvous manifestation of God's majesty is expressed in nature and its cycles. Therefore the Sages relate the name Quph to haqaph, to go around, and haqaphah, cycle. The cycles of nature - the changing seasons, the monthly renewal of the moon, the twenty-eight year solar cycle - all teach man that there is a pattern and purpose to the Universe.

This explains the naturalistic zeitgeist of the Nineteenth Century (http://www.biblewheel.com/History/C19_Materialism.asp).

The 19th Book, Psalms, has a lot to do with this theme. In various Psalms (e.g, 19, 104) the theme of Nature is brought out. And, unlike most books of the OT, the Psalms constantly repeat the theme of the supernatural, that is, the miracles. Many chapters recall God's great wonders, specially the miracles in Exodus.

Therefore, the theme of the supernatural has much to do with Quph and the Gospel of Mark, which lies on the Spoke of Physical Manifestation. The many miracles performed by Christ are presented in the Gospels as evidence of His supernatural Power. The Greek word Dunamis is often used to describe miracles:


Act 19:11 And God wrought special miracles (dunamis) by the hands of Paul:

The following is Strong's definition of that word:


Strong's 1411 δύναμις Dunamis
Force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty

The only instance in the Gospels where it is translated as "miracle" is in Mark (KJV):



Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.


That's a word that characterizes the Gospel of Mark, which has the greatest number of hits and specially the greatest density of both Dunamos and its cognate Dunamai in all four Gospels.

But there's more! The miracles in Mark are mentioned as evidence that it is the Gospel of Action, as in a quote above:


Action-Packed

As mentioned earlier, Mark’s gospel does not emphasize words or long sermons; but rather flows from one action-packed event to another. Unlike the other Gospels, Mark records only four parables and nineteen miracles.

Powerful miracles as an evidence of action-packed narrative is an impressive fact because the Greek word Dunamos, maximized in Mark, is the very origin of the word dynamic! Mark is the Dynamic Gospel!

Victor

Victor
04-17-2009, 12:34 PM
I forgot to add that Richard wrote a couple of articles on some of the features of the Second Gospel that relate to what is documented above. Here they are:

Mark: The Gospel of Action (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Quph_Mark.asp)
Mark: His Narrative Runs (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Quph_Run.asp)

Charisma
11-21-2011, 03:41 PM
Hi All,

This seems like an interesting little thread.

In answer to Richard's question about any links between miracles and Qoph, I looked around google for insight into Qoph, and found something about the sun on the horizon, or, 'behind'. Also, earlier in this thread, something about cycles in nature. Obviously, when Jesus performed miracles, He restored broken things both by recreating parts that were missing, and speeding up natural processes immensely - not by breaking any of His 'law'.

Returning to the sun, two verses come to mind which speak of Christ in His strength, and Christ in His ministry.

Psalm 19
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, {line: or, rule, or, direction}
5 Which [is] as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, [and] rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth [is] from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul:
the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple. {law: or, doctrine} {converting: or, restoring}
8 The statutes of the LORD [are] right, rejoicing the heart:
the commandment of the LORD [is] pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD [is] clean, enduring for ever:
the judgments of the LORD [are] true [and] righteous altogether. {true: Heb. truth}
10 More to be desired [are they] than gold, yea, than much fine gold:
sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. {the honeycomb: Heb. the dropping of honeycomb}
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned:
[and] in keeping of them [there is] great reward.

12 Who can understand [his] errors? cleanse thou me from secret [faults].

13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous [sins];
let them not have dominion over me:
then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. {the great: or, much}

14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. {strength: Heb. rock}


Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.


I was wondering if the Hebrew for 'calves', or 'joy', has any connection to Qoph or nineteen?

Richard Amiel McGough
11-21-2011, 04:13 PM
Hi All,

This seems like an interesting little thread.

In answer to Richard's question about any links between miracles and Qoph, I looked around google for insight into Qoph, and found something about the sun on the horizon, or, 'behind'. Also, earlier in this thread, something about cycles in nature. Obviously, when Jesus performed miracles, He restored broken things both by recreating parts that were missing, and speeding up natural processes immensely - not by breaking any of His 'law'.

Returning to the sun, two verses come to mind which speak of Christ in His strength, and Christ in His ministry.

Psalm 19
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, {line: or, rule, or, direction}
5 Which [is] as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, [and] rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth [is] from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul:
the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple. {law: or, doctrine} {converting: or, restoring}
8 The statutes of the LORD [are] right, rejoicing the heart:
the commandment of the LORD [is] pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD [is] clean, enduring for ever:
the judgments of the LORD [are] true [and] righteous altogether. {true: Heb. truth}
10 More to be desired [are they] than gold, yea, than much fine gold:
sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. {the honeycomb: Heb. the dropping of honeycomb}
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned:
[and] in keeping of them [there is] great reward.

12 Who can understand [his] errors? cleanse thou me from secret [faults].

13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous [sins];
let them not have dominion over me:
then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. {the great: or, much}

14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. {strength: Heb. rock}


Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.


I was wondering if the Hebrew for 'calves', or 'joy', has any connection to Qoph or nineteen?
Hey there Charisma,

Thanks for waking up this old thread! I had forgotten about it, and we are currently talking about the meaning of Quph on another thread.

Psalm 19 is is sort of a double emphasis on Quph since it is the 19th chapter of the 19th book. Appropriately, it uses the word taquphah (circuit) which appears to be based on the word "quph" (name of the 19th letter) though scholars are not exactly sure. But when read in Hebrew, the word "quph" is found in the center of taquphah.

And the Psalm does speak about "miracles" and "running" which are two themes prominent in Mark.

I don't see any connections with Quph in the references to calves or joy in Malachi 4:2.

heb13-13
11-21-2011, 04:32 PM
Hey Richard and Charisma,

I got a picture of something when I read your two posts. Down here in Texas I see new born calves skipping for joy all the time.

It's quite a sight to see. They are not very coordinated but they seem very happy.

I don't think this adds much to your conversation but just wanted to share my observation of new born calves.

All the best,
Rick

Charisma
11-21-2011, 05:23 PM
Hi Richard,

Thanks for your reply. :) That's helpful.

I can't see anything obvious about calves and joy with Qoph, but, I notice you've linked John 19 with 'the Body of Jesus', and since He took our sin into Himself (like when He healed the man whom he told to pick up his bed and walk, and I realise this doesn't apply to every healing miracle -) and Mark's gospel is about servanthood - not only His obedience to His Father in those things which He did and those people whom He healed, but the ultimate act of service being to die on the cross for us - the Body of Christ is an important other link to the number 19. This is an interesting page, too: http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_19.asp

I feel it's more than interesting that the verse in Malachi calls Him the Sun of Righteousness - a fire around which others revolve to catch its heat and light.

Rick, I've never seen calves leaping, but Carter Conlon says that the very first time they come out of the stall they frisk about in total delight with their new freedom. (He mentions this to expound the verses which refer to it, and also because he's had the same experience of overwhelming rejoicing and leaping around with joy.)

Richard Amiel McGough
11-21-2011, 05:30 PM
Hey Richard and Charisma,

I got a picture of something when I read your two posts. Down here in Texas I see new born calves skipping for joy all the time.

It's quite a sight to see. They are not very coordinated but they seem very happy.

I don't think this adds much to your conversation but just wanted to share my observation of new born calves.

All the best,
Rick
Actually, that makes some pretty good sense, given that the Ox/Calf is the Cherub corresponding to the Gospel of Mark in my understanding:

Revelation 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion [Matthew, Christ as King], and the second beast like a calf [Mark, Christ as Servant], and the third beast had a face as a man [Luke, Christ as Son of Man], and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle [John, Christ as Son of God].

Richard Amiel McGough
11-21-2011, 06:11 PM
Hi Richard,

Thanks for your reply. :) That's helpful.

I can't see anything obvious about calves and joy with Qoph, but, I notice you've linked John 19 with 'the Body of Jesus', and since He took our sin into Himself (like when He healed the man whom he told to pick up his bed and walk, and I realise this doesn't apply to every healing miracle -) and Mark's gospel is about servanthood - not only His obedience to His Father in those things which He did and those people whom He healed, but the ultimate act of service being to die on the cross for us - the Body of Christ is an important other link to the number 19. This is an interesting page, too: http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_19.asp

I feel it's more than interesting that the verse in Malachi calls Him the Sun of Righteousness - a fire around which others revolve to catch its heat and light.

Rick, I've never seen calves leaping, but Carter Conlon says that the very first time they come out of the stall they frisk about in total delight with their new freedom. (He mentions this to expound the verses which refer to it, and also because he's had the same experience of overwhelming rejoicing and leaping around with joy.)
Hey there Charisma,

I agree about the Sun of Righteousness being very significant. But I don't think it relates to the Number 19. The sun is most prominent on Spoke 21, corresponding to Shin, the letter of Fire and the first and last letters of shemesh (sun) which occurs most frequently in Book 21, Ecclesiastes. See my articles called Vanity of Vanities (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Shin_Vanity.asp) and Where is the Sun? (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Shin_WhereSun.asp).


And as for the friskiness of the calf - that is implicit in the word used in Revelation:

Revelation 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf [Strong's 3448], and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

Strong's 3448
μοσχος{mos'-khos}
probably strengthened for oschos (a shoot); calf 6; 6 1) a tender juicy shoot 1a) a sprout, of a plant or tree 2) offspring 2a) of men: a boy or a girl, esp. if fresh and delicate 2b) of animals: a young one 3) a calf, a bullock, a heifer

heb13-13
11-21-2011, 06:35 PM
Rick, I've never seen calves leaping, but Carter Conlon says that the very first time they come out of the stall they frisk about in total delight with their new freedom. (He mentions this to expound the verses which refer to it, and also because he's had the same experience of overwhelming rejoicing and leaping around with joy.)

Yeah, I have never seen calves leaping either. Skipping, but not leaping. :winking0071:

I live in a forest and I see a lot of deer leaping. In fact, they leap right over my fence and wreak havoc with my garden. :mad:

Rick

Richard Amiel McGough
11-21-2011, 08:18 PM
Yeah, I have never seen calves leaping either. Skipping, but not leaping. :winking0071:

I live in a forest and I see a lot of deer leaping. In fact, they leap right over my fence and wreak havoc with my garden. :mad:

Rick
Them deer are amazing critters. I've watch them standing beside a 6 foot fence and then effortlessly (or so it seemed) leap over the fence and land on the otherside. No garden is safe around them.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-21-2011, 10:29 PM
Yo, ALL ...

I wanted to post this exchange I had with Abigail and Victor in this thread four years ago back in October 2007 when I was still a believer.




I read something about the Gospel of Mark today which said 'The nineteen miracles recorded in this short book....'

Isn't Mark on spoke 19 ...has anyone counted the miracles recorded in Mark?I admit I haven't ...yet
Ah ... now you are thinking a lot like me! I notice those little "coincidences" too. But when it comes to counting things like how many miracles or healings or parables folks always come up with different numbers because there always seems to be some ambiguities. So I googled "nineteen miracles" and the first link brings up this article about Mark:

http://www.koinonia-fellowship.org/Introduction_to_Mark.htm

Here's a quote:



Action-Packed

As mentioned earlier, Mark’s gospel does not emphasize words or long sermons; but rather flows from one action-packed event to another. Unlike the other Gospels, Mark records only four parables and nineteen miracles. Mark changes from one event to another by frequenting the use of the Greek word Euthus. This colorful word, which is used forty-seven times in this Gospel, describes 'directly, at once, soon, as soon as, forthwith, immediately, shortly, straightway' (Strong 33, 1112).

Of course, I like that quote because the section in the Bible Wheel book concerning Mark is called "The Gospel of Action (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Quph_Mark.asp)" and links to the Quph KeyWord "qal" meaning "swift" like a runner. It really is a powerful connection. But the number of miracles? I don't know because I haven't counted them. So always the skeptic, I googled "eighteen miracles" and found other articles about Mark, such as this one:

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/mark.htm

Here's a quote:


The Gospel was probably written in Rome for a primarily Gentile audience, to convince them that Jesus of Nazareth, in spite of his sufferings and death, was the Son of God. It has been called a Gospel of action because it records 18 miracles (similar in count to Matthew and Luke) but only 4 parables (Matthew includes 18 parables and Luke 19). Jesus' victory over evil through his deeds and death receives emphasis. Much material in Mark is repeated in Matthew and in Luke, leading most scholars to conclude that Mark was written first and used independently by the other writers.
I really like this one, because I didn't even have to add the bold to the phrase "Gospel of action" - its in the original article. And that pretty much exemplifies the kinds of links that I put in the Bible Wheel book. They are super obvious and recognized by everyone. Anybody who knows anything about the Bible should imediately recognized the validity of the Bible Wheel .... or so it seems to me. It really is a mystery how its been out there on the internet since 2001 and its still relatively unknown.

So anyway, thanks for the tip! There might be something to it - I'll just have to count the miracles and find out why there is a difference. It certainly is interesting that folks link the high frequency of miracles to the "action" nature of the Gospel. I have a tingle in the back of my head that suggests there is some inherent connection between Quph and Miracles but I can't quite recall what it might be right now.

Richard

Since many folks that are currently seeing the "skeptical" Richard may not have known me back then, I thought it would be helpful to show that skepticism is nothing new to me. When told about there being 19 miricles in Mark, I responded by saying:
But the number of miracles? I don't know because I haven't counted them. So always the skeptic, I googled "eighteen miracles" and found other articles about Mark, such as this one:
And to balance things, so that folks can see that skepticism is not necessarily antithetical to faith, here is how I responded when Victor tod me about serindipitously finding the list of 19 miracles he had compiled:



Hi Abigail!

You are correct! You are reminding me of the my early days with the Bible Wheel. When I first learned of the Wheel, I had an intuition and this was one of the things that I went to check. I counted exactly 19 miracles!! :) There is also reference to 'many healings' performed by Christ, but the specific miracle accounts total 19.
Hi Victor!

I'm gonna count them, and also see what others have counted so I can get an idea of the validity of the count. Could you post your list?

Also, if you have any idea of the connection between Quph and miracles, please share it.


Curiously a few days ago I was organizing my stuff and found some old sheets with some of my first notes about the Bible Wheel. And there it was - there was a page with the list of all those miracles. It is right here on my table!

God bless,
Victor
Ah! The blessed synchronicity of God who "worketh all things after the counsel of His will" (Eph 1:11) - with perfect timing I might add!

Richard
That was the skeptical me saying - Ah! The blessed synchronicity of God who "worketh all things after the counsel of His will" (Eph 1:11) - with perfect timing I might add!

Just hoping this will help folks understand who I am and where I'm coming from.

Charisma
11-22-2011, 04:04 AM
Hi Richard,

I read the beginning of the thread before I posted in it. All very helpful, thanks.


I agree about the Sun of Righteousness being very significant. But I don't think it relates to the Number 19.I think this is a problem we are going to have with using the gematria as a springboard towards God, instead of God as a springboard towards the gematria.

Christ, as 'the Sun [of Righteousness]' is, as you say in your comments about 'shin', the fire. Our GOD is a consuming fire. Okay, so what is our God consuming? He is consuming both objectively and subjectively. His love consumed Him to the point of dying on the cross to destroy 'the sin'. That was subjective on His part. Objectively, before Christ even came, but most irrevocably through the revelation provided in His ministry, objectively He consumed sickness and sins, and repelled evil spirits. Before He'd even got close to them, they were crying out about His presence nearby, and begging for temporary deliverance. This has been objectively verified by so many eyewitnesses it's not really open for discussion (imho), although the world IS full of willing ostriches, who prefer to keep their head in the sand.

When it comes to the healings Christ did because He is 'the Sun [of Righteousness], we begin to get a picture of what matters to God. This is constantly at variance with what matters to man. Strangely, men can come to terms with sickness and sin. But God cannot. Strangely, men can prefer to please themselves more than God. But God cannot abide 'self'. Strangely, men are content with any diversion from facing eternal reality. But the time came when God could not put off any longer dealing with the real root of man's exclusion from God's intimate presence. God loves pure reality. Utter holiness. Total unity with His creation. It would have been impossible for Christ to come and yet do nothing about the condition into which people had fallen. He came for the very purpose of opening a new way of living for man to enter into, and He began with calling them to repentance, healing them, delivering them - all before He had ever mentioned the cross to His nearest admirers.

Have you ever wondered what it would be like to look into the eyes of the eternal God, the Ancient of Days, the Maker of the Universe? Would you ever have seen such depth, such wisdom, such knowledge, such understanding, such LOVE and PURITY - all in one Person? Have you ever wondered what His voice carried, that thousands of people wanted to hear it as much as possible? Having said all this, I think the 'sprout' part - the ever-young - part of Christ's identity is also necessary.


Strong's 3448
μοσχος{mos'-khos}
probably strengthened for oschos (a shoot); calf 6; 6 1) a tender juicy shoot 1a) a sprout, of a plant or tree 2) offspring 2a) of men: a boy or a girl, esp. if fresh and delicate 2b) of animals: a young one 3) a calf, a bullock, a heifer 1) a tender juicy shoot 1a) a sprout, of a plant or tree

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

'Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven'

Jeremiah 33:15 5 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

Zechariah 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they [are] men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

The more prophecy one comes across which justifies some of Jesus parables and apparently dense questions, the more one realises that the generation to whom He came had ample information staring them in the face, to identify Him, and, to us as students of His word, so do we!

I love the picture of His Righteousness being active in healing and delivering the bodies of men, women and children, as an earnest of His desire to heal and deliver our souls from death. Truly, the words 'shall arise' (as the Sun does) also tie in with the picture of a new shoot coming out of a root low down in the earth - all very fitting for the servant picture conveyed by Mark. A servant cannot choose who he serves, and Christ made no distinctions between those He healed or delivered. At least, He showed He true heart when He went beyond His overt 'core mission' to 'the house of Israel', and included Samaritans and Greeks (all comers) under His ministry.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-22-2011, 09:50 AM
Hi Richard,

I read the beginning of the thread before I posted in it. All very helpful, thanks.

I agree about the Sun of Righteousness being very significant. But I don't think it relates to the Number 19.
I think this is a problem we are going to have with using the gematria as a springboard towards God, instead of God as a springboard towards the gematria.

Good morning Charisma,

I don't know what you mean when you talk about "gematria as a springboard towards God" as opposed to "God as a springboard towards the gematria." The question about the symbolic meaning of "sun of righteousness" and the Number 19 is a question about if and how those concepts are related in the Bible. It has nothing to do with gematria or God functioning as a "springboard" one towards the other.



This has been objectively verified by so many eyewitnesses it's not really open for discussion (imho), although the world IS full of willing ostriches, who prefer to keep their head in the sand.

Who are the witnesses of whom you speak? I presume you mean the people written about in the Bible. But how do they function as "witnesses" iof we can't objectively verify anything they said? The book of Mormon is filled with "witnesses" that claim things you don't beleive. Why do you believe one book but not the other?



When it comes to the healings Christ did because He is 'the Sun [of Righteousness], we begin to get a picture of what matters to God. This is constantly at variance with what matters to man. Strangely, men can come to terms with sickness and sin. But God cannot. Strangely, men can prefer to please themselves more than God. But God cannot abide 'self'. Strangely, men are content with any diversion from facing eternal reality. But the time came when God could not put off any longer dealing with the real root of man's exclusion from God's intimate presence. God loves pure reality. Utter holiness. Total unity with His creation. It would have been impossible for Christ to come and yet do nothing about the condition into which people had fallen. He came for the very purpose of opening a new way of living for man to enter into, and He began with calling them to repentance, healing them, delivering them - all before He had ever mentioned the cross to His nearest admirers.

Those are some intense observations! When I think of God I think of PURE REALITY, not a being who "loves" pure Reality. In other words, God is Reality. Therefore, God has "total unity with his creation" by nature, not choice.

Why can't "God abide 'self'?" Why did he create "selves" like Adam and Eve if he could not abide them?

I believe in Ultimate Unity, but that's Unity with Diversity which makes it so wonderful. In one sense you lose yourself when you discoer your unity with God, but in another sense, you remain you. It's like what Paul said "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me." So what's going on? Did Paul cease to be a "self?" No. I mean yes. I mean well ... Unity with the Divine involves mystery. The mystery of Christ in you.

And what makes you think that people hate "pure Reality." I LOVE pure Reality. And what abotu you? To write like you do, you seem to be indicatng that you love pure Reality too. So who are these people that you think don't love Reality? Sure, I know there are plenty of people lost in a lower kind of consciousness that focuses on physcial things and the flesh, but there are also children in the world. We know children will grow if nutured, and the same is true fo the "children of consciousness" who are focused on (and some trapped in) a lower aspect of Reality.



Have you ever wondered what it would be like to look into the eyes of the eternal God, the Ancient of Days, the Maker of the Universe? Would you ever have seen such depth, such wisdom, such knowledge, such understanding, such LOVE and PURITY - all in one Person? Have you ever wondered what His voice carried, that thousands of people wanted to hear it as much as possible? Having said all this, I think the 'sprout' part - the ever-young - part of Christ's identity is also necessary.

I can imagine that about Christ since he was a man, but it doesn't make any sense to me to try to think those thoughts about "God" since God is supposed to be some sort of abstract absolute being outside of time who is nothing like a perons in any way at all, and cannot even "act" because everthing was frozen in eternity before time began.

The Bible is very contradictory about the nature of God. Sometimes it presents him like a mere human who changes his mind, has to "come down" to actuall look at things because he doesn't have knowledge yet, and thngs like that. Then at other times he is presented as "all knowing" and "all powerful." And then the scholastic philosophers invented their version of the Christain God who is an Omniscient Trinity of Three Persons but also is "Absolutely Simple" and so on and the whole thing became unintelligible.



The more prophecy one comes across which justifies some of Jesus parables and apparently dense questions, the more one realises that the generation to whom He came had ample information staring them in the face, to identify Him, and, to us as students of His word, so do we!

What prophecies are you talking about?



I love the picture of His Righteousness being active in healing and delivering the bodies of men, women and children, as an earnest of His desire to heal and deliver our souls from death. Truly, the words 'shall arise' (as the Sun does) also tie in with the picture of a new shoot coming out of a root low down in the earth - all very fitting for the servant picture conveyed by Mark. A servant cannot choose who he serves, and Christ made no distinctions between those He healed or delivered. At least, He showed He true heart when He went beyond His overt 'core mission' to 'the house of Israel', and included Samaritans and Greeks (all comers) under His ministry.
Yes, that is some beautiful imagery. But I don't see any necessary link with Mark. The "sun" (light of the world) imagery is largely from John and Malachi, not Mark or Spoke 19. The Bible is a tapestry where all the parts connect. The study of the patterns on the Wheel reveal some amazing connections, but then those threads must be woven together to see the whole.

Great chatting,

Richard