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View Full Version : The Apostasy of John Hagee: Jesus was NOT the Messiah!



Richard Amiel McGough
10-21-2007, 03:15 PM
Here is the article I just posted in my "Research and Reviews" section (link (http://www.biblewheel.com/RR/Hagee_Defense_of_Israel.asp)). The formatting is better there, but I posted it here so folks can easily comment on it.


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http://www.biblewheel.com/RR/Defense_of_Israel.jpg


John Hagee has one of the largest ministries in the country. Here is how it is described on his website www.JohnHagee.org http://www.biblewheel.com/images/globe_tiny.gif (http://www.jhm.org/pastor.asp):


Dr. John C. Hagee is the founder and Senior Pastor of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, a non-denominational evangelical church with more than 18,000 active members. [He] is the President and C.E.O. of John Hagee Ministries which telecasts his national radio and television ministry carried in America on 160 T.V. stations, 50 radio stations, eight networks and can be seen weekly in 99 million homes. ... [He] is the author of 10 major books published by Thomas Nelson Publishers.

Any man preaching the Bible into 99 million homes bears a massive responsibility before God and his fellow human beings to accurately and clearly proclaim the truth. Scripture warns that "not many" should set themselves up as "masters" or teachers, for in so doing they risk a "greater condemnation" (James 3:1).

Before discussing Hagee's apostasy from the Christian faith, it is important for the reader to know that I stand firm in my support of Israel for humanitarian and political reasons. I love the Jewish people, delight in their music, literature and culture, and deeply appreciate that God used them to bring forth Jesus the Messiah and the Holy Bible that proclaims the Gospel of His Messiahship "to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile." I condemn any form of anti-semitism as anti-christian and a sure sign of spiritual alienation from God. But I also know that you do not "show love and support" to Israel by denying that Jesus Christ is their Messiah, which is exactly what John Hagee has done.

In his book In Defense of Israel http://www.biblewheel.com/images/globe_tiny.gif (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1599792109/ref=s9_asin_image_1/103-0757130-7718202?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0GPSKA7C2BWCDEYSVS6Z&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=278240301&pf_rd_i=507846) (2007), beginning in the section called "The Jews did not Reject Jesus as Messiah" (p. 132) John Hagee relentlessly twisted Scripture in his attempt to prove that Jesus Christ did not come "to be Messiah to the Jews." His denial of Jesus as the Christ (Messiah) cannot be overlooked as a mere "slip of his pen" because he repeated his assertion "seven ways from Sunday" as seen in this sample of seven quotes from his book:

If God intended for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel, why didn't he authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God's Messiah, just as Moses had done? (p. 137)
Jesus refused to produce a sign ... because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be Messiah. (p 138)
If Jesus wanted to be Messiah, why did he repeatedly tell his disciples and followers to "tell no one" about his supernatural accomplishments? (p. 139)
The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews. (p. 140)
They wanted him to be their Messiah, but he flatly refused. (p. 141)
He refused to be their Messiah, choosing instead to be the Savior of the world (p. 143)
Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of Messiah in word or deed. (p. 145)John Hagee's words directly contradict the central message of the entire New Testament. Indeed, John Hagee's words directly contradict the fundamental declaration that defines the Christian Faith, which is that Jesus is the Messiah (i.e. the Christ). This is what Peter declared in his first sermon to thousands of his fellow Jews gathered at Pentecost (Acts 2:36):



Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ (Messiah).

Likewise, this was the first thing Saul, the Jew from Tarsus, proclaimed to his fellow Jews in the synagogues immediately after the scales fell from his eyes (Acts 9:20-23):



And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests? But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ. And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him:

Scripture declares that Saul, who soon would be known as the Apostle Paul, preached and proved to his Jewish audience that Jesus is Messiah. The Gospel itself is called the "Gospel of Christ" or in Jewish terms, the Gospel of the Messiah! This fact is so very elementary it seems almost foolish to belabour it. That any genuinely Christian teacher could err on this point is inconceiveable because the error concerns the primal definition of Christianity itself. Scripture therefore places this error under the greatest possible condemnation:



Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. -- 1 John 2:22

Liar! Antichrist! There is no mistaking the apostasy here. The word "Christ" literally means "Messiah." The New Testament could be faithfully translated with all references to Jesus Christ rendered as "Jesus the Messiah." Indeed, the Complete Jewish Bible http://www.biblewheel.com/images/globe_tiny.gif (http://bible.christianity.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?new=1&word=1+john+2%3A22&section=0&version=cjb&language=en) translates the verse above as "Who is a liar at all, if not the person who denies that Yeshua is the Messiah?" How then is it possible that John Hagee, who has been preaching and teaching the "Bible" for over forty years, could suddenly turn and deny that Jesus is the Messiah? Is it possible that we are misunderstanding what he really meant? The unfortunate answer is that Hagee left no room for misunderstanding. He repeated his heresies over and over again. Let us begin with this quote from pages 137-138:




If God intended for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel, why didn't he authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God's Messiah, just as Moses had done? The Jews, knowing of Moses's signs to Israel, asked for a supernatural sign that Jesus was indeed their Messiah. Jesus answered:
No sign will be given...except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. -- Matthew 12:39-40
Jesus refused to give a sign. He only compared himself with the prophet Jonah, who carried the message of repentance from God to the Gentiles in Nineveh.

This one quote has many errors. The first is Hagee's failure to recognize that the "sign of Jonah" was the ultimate miraculous sign upon which all Christianity stands, namely, the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is the supreme sign that God gave to prove that Jesus is the Messiah. Hagee ignored it as if it were nothing; his six page Index doesn't even have an entry for "resurrection." He also erred in his assertion that God didn't "authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God's Messiah." This directly contradicts the words preached by the Apostle Peter at Pentecost (Acts 2:22-23)



Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:


Hagee's claim also contradicts Christ's answer to the Jews when they demanded to know if He was Messiah (John 10:24-33):



Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Messiah, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.


Christ cited the "good works" of His miraculous signs as proof that He is Messiah. John's Gospel was designed around seven of those signs, beginning with the miraculous transformation of water into wine and culminating in the resurrection of Lazarus from the dead after which the Jews, predictably, plotted again to murder him. The Apostle John drove the final nail into the coffin of Hagee's heresy when he summed up the purpose of his Gospel (John 20:30-31):



And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


Peter, Paul, and John are but three of the New Testament Jews who declared to their fellow Jews that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God. Yet Hagee denies that Jesus ever claimed to be the Messiah, and with that false presupposition attempts to exonerate "the Jews" by asking "How can the Jews be blamed for rejecting what was never offered?" (p. 136). He repeatedly denies that the "Jews as a people" were in any way responsible for the death of Christ. Peter's pentecostal sermon quoted above provides another refuation of this error. The Apostle addressed the whole crowd of multiplied thousands, saying "Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem" (Acts 2:14), and the accused them all saying "God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Messiah." He declared them all guilty of killing Jesus and contrary to Hagee, told those thousands upon thousands of first century Jews that Jesus was not only "Lord" but also MESSIAH. This was the declaration of all the Jews who believed: Jesus is Messiah! This pricked the crowd to their heart, and about three thousand Jews were saved that day. Yet in the face of all this biblical evidence, John Hagee continues to deny that Jesus is the Messiah to the Jews, saying "The people wanted him to be their Messiah, but he flatly refused" (p. 139).

It is a most unfortunate fact that Hagee's errors cannot be discounted as innocent mistakes. In his quote of Matthew 12 in the tan box above, he willfully omitted Scripture that contradicted his thesis. The true reason that "Jesus refused to give a sign" in that particular passage is revealed in the text that Hagee deliberately hid from his readers (Matthew 12:38-41, NKJV):



Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.

The words Hagee quoted are underlined. He ripped them out of their context in which they are bracketed before and after by Christ's rebuke of the "evil and adulterous generation" that would be condemned by the wicked "men of Nineveh" in the Day of Judgment. Matthew 12 is but one of the many texts in which Christ condemned the whole generation of Jews that rejected him, not just "the high priest and his circle of religious conspirators" as Hagee falsely asserts (p. 128). Hagee attempted as similar ruse on page 138 (emphasis added):



When Jesus went on trial, Herod "had desired for a long time to see Him...and he hoped to see some miracle [sign] done by Him" (Luke 23:8). Jesus refused to produce a sign for the national leadership of Israel in an attempt to prove he was the Messiah because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be the Messiah. Jesus's repeated response to the Jewish people who urged him to be their Messiah was, "My kindgom is not of this world" (John 18:36)


This sheds some light on the source of Hagee's error. It seems he has wholeheartedly adopted the unbiblical definition of the Messiah promoted by the unbelieving Jews who deny Christ on the pretext that He failed to defeat the Romans and set up an earthly ethnic kingom on some dusty Middle East real estate. Thus Hagee rejects Jesus as the Christ because His Kingdom "is not of this world." This is confirmed on page 139 (emphasis added):



If Jesus wanted to be Messiah, why did he repeatedly tell his disciples and followers to "tell no one" about his supernatural accomplishments? Think about it! If the man were trying to gain national attention to rally the support of the general public for the overthrow of mighty Rome, he would not go around the country saying "Tell no one!"


So there it is. Though he never explicitly stated his definition, Hagee used the word "Messiah" to designate nothing but a conquering Jew who would "smash Rome" and "usher in an era of universal peace" (p. 141). Since Jesus did not come to do this, He was "not the Messiah" by Hagee's heretical definition. Thus the Jews are completely exonerated for rejecting Christ, for indeed, "The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews" (p. 140).
It is a tragedy that Hagee wrote as if he never understood a single word of the New Testament proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus the Messiah. How else could he assert that there is a distinction between Jesus as Saviour and Jesus as Messiah as he did when he asserted that "He refused to be their Messiah, choosing instead to be the Savior of the world" (p. 143)? He appears to know less of the Gospel than any ten year old child who has recited Luke 2:11 in a Christmans pageant:



For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.


These are the apostate antichrist teachings of John Hagee. He explicitly and repeatedly denies that Jesus came to be the Messiah to the Jews. John Hagee needs to repent. All faithful and orthodox Christians need to warn others of his false teachings.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
10-21-2007, 07:48 PM
More and more blogs are picking up on the Hagee Heresy.

The Sola Dei Gloria (http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/jesus-did-not-come-to-be-the-messiah/) blog has a video of Hagee denying Jesus came to be the Messiah. The blogger comments: "After finding a clip and hearing the man myself, the only thing I can say is he is now a heretic in my book."

They are talking about it on the True Discernment (http://truediscernment.wordpress.com/2007/10/19/john-hagee-the-heretic-jesus-did-not-come-to-be-the-messiah/) and Threshingfloor (http://threshingfloor.onevoicemm.net/weblog/?p=868) blogs.

Here is a good article about Hagee's Dual Covenant heresy: http://apostasywatch.com/wolves3/page7.html

The Free Republic (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1912797/posts) board is talking about it.

And a lot is being said on the Godlikeproductions.com (http://www.godlikeproductions.com/bbs/message.php?page=1&showdate=10/18/07&messageid=451384&mpage=1) forum. The first post contains this comment:



Pray for Haggee as he has twisted God's Word to placate the Jews of Israel and preaches lies and false doctrine. If you follow his teachings I would stop immediately and ask the Lord to open your heart to the truth. We were warned false teachers would come in the last days "making merchandise of His body" , Haggee is only one of many. (2 Peter 2:1-3)


Richard

gilgal
10-21-2007, 09:23 PM
Well Hagee was wrong to join the AIPAC, but this takes this heretic one step further from the truth.

I admired his teachings on the temple and Jewish customs and his explanations on many mysteries like the conception of a virgin that bleeds, meaning the man and his wife made a blood-covenant with each other. But after preaching against Clinton's sexual affair against Monica Lewinsky, he turns away from the truth. Can you believe it?
What a double-minded man!

Rose
10-22-2007, 08:17 AM
This very clearly shows us that we must be diligent to weigh the teachings of all men against what the Word of God says!


11 Tim 3: 16 "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."And just because a man has a large following of people doesn't mean his teachings are correct

Let us pray for wisdom and discernment :pray:

Rose

Trumpet
10-22-2007, 11:20 AM
:yo:Hi all,
I've been reading in the forum for a few days now, and decided to jump in on this one.
Could this be another "Christian Leader" going the way of his own views? Over the past few decades, there are quite a few that have been exposed and fallen by their own "thing". Certainly he needs our prayers.
As I have been reading in the forum, especially in the eschatology sections, the things that happened to the Jewish people for not advancing their faith and belief into the fullness of belief in Jesus, is clearly spelled out in scripture, and was fulfilled in them after GREAT patience by God, in AD 70. And the Book of Revelation which as it states in verse 1 says that it is The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto him, (John), or more plainly, The revealing of Jesus Christ, (or who Jesus REALLY is).
I believe that this is one of the most important aspects of this Book to us in this time. -That this is who Jesus is, and these are the blessings that follow belief, and the consequences that follow disbelief, sin, and/or apostacy.
In my own life I have suffered consequences of wrong choices, some minor, some major, and I have come to learn that the Spirit is not someone to be grieved, and our God will take action in His good time, and according to how He sees fit.
May God open John Hagee's eyes before severe correction has to be administered.

White
10-22-2007, 11:44 AM
Hey Richard & Rose & all,

How sad that an obviously beloved teacher of the stature of Hagee is falling away from the truth, which is in Christ Jesus - John 14:6 : Jesus said to him : "I am the way, the truth and the life, NO ONE comes to the Father except through Me!"

Rose, your verse - 2 Timothy 3:16 - was preached from every Catholic Pulpit this Sunday - 10/20+21/07 ! You are right on the money. May Hagee repent and turn back to the TRUTH which is in Christ Jesus - Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH - the MESSIAH of all people, Jews and Gentiles.

Paul preaches in Damascus after his conversion... Acts 9:20 : and he (Paul) began at once to proclaim JESUS in the synagogues, that HE IS THE SON OF GOD. All who heard him were astounded and said, "Is not this the man who in Jerusalem ravaged those who call upon his name, and came here expressly to take them back in chains to the chief priests?" But Saul grew all the stronger and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus, proving that this IS THE MESSIAH.

Shall we go back to Saul's Conversion in Acts 9? : Paul fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him : "Saul, Saul, (Hagee, Hagee) why are you persecuting Me?" He said: "Who are you, sir?" "I AM JESUS, WHOM YOU ARE PERSECUTING. Now get up and go into the city and you will be told what you must do."

v. 15 : But the Lord said to Ananias : "Go for this man (Paul) is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before Gentiles, kings and Israelites and I will show him what he will have to suffer for My name." So Ananias went and entered the house; laying his hands on him (Paul), he (Ananias) said, "Saul, (Hagee) my brother, the LORD has sent me, JESUS / Y'SHUA who appeared to you on the way by which you came, that you may regain your sight and be filled with the HOLY SPIRIT." Immediately things like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight. He got up and was baptized, and when he had eaten, he recovered his strength. Notice that Paul was immediately baptized - in water and the Holy Spirit - and Paul became the foremost teacher in the New Testament. From the persecutor of "The Way", Paul proclaimed the Way, the Truth and the Life which is in Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who came to save the world (that INCLUDES the Jews), not to condemn it (John 3:16-17)

May we all pray for Pastor Hagee - may the LORD appear to him and remove the scales from his eyes, that he may see and proclaim the TRUTH which is in MESSIAH Y'SHUA - Jesus Christ.

This brings me to my time at Kenesseth Israel in 1999 - right after Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur and the Feast of Tabernacles did I send Rabbi Chaim Goldberger these exact words : "Saul, Saul (Rabbi Goldberger) why are you persecturing ME"? and then "Saul, Saul (Rabbi Goldberger) receive your sight - accept Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH as Messiah". The result was immediate: I was FORBIDDEN to ever enter that Synagogue again, even so I had written Rabbi Goldberger many letters proclaiming JESUS / Y'SHUA as Messiah, but it was when I put it in the context of the Book of Acts that the message became so offensive, that I was told that if I returned to Kenesseth Israel Congregation, I would be arrested ! (I did return two years later and Rabbi Goldberger personally walked me to the door after the entire congregation turned around and followed this humbling experience). Nevertheless, the Jewish People are in my prayers EVERY SINGLE DAY - may the LORD HEAR and ANSWER (Jeremiah 33:3)

Richard, how many times does Paul proclaim JESUS as Messiah? How many times do the Apostles and especially PETER proclaim JESUS as Messiah (Matthew 16:16ff etc.) - How many verses does Pastor Hagee have to remove from the New Testament to make his "new theory" stick?

Jesus commissioned the Twelve in Matthew 10:6 : "Go rather to the LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL. As you go, make this proclamation: "THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND. Cure the sick, raise the dead, sleanse lepers, drive out demons. Without cost you have received; without cost you are to give." Amen.

Pastor Hagee's "new teaching" should create such a firestorm that he would have to publicly repent or his ministry shall fall into disgrace because apart from JESUS / Y'SHUA there is NO SALVATION. Ann Coulter is a better theologian than Hagee! If there was SALVATION APART FROM JESUS, why did JESUS - Y'SHUA - have to die? A Messianic Jew is not a perfected Jew but a completed Jew. Jesus is concealed in the Old and revealed in the New.


Question : Should TBN or any of the other Christian Netwoks carry such lies? Is the whole Evangelical Movement corrupt? Do any of the other "big names" come to Hagee's defense? Is this the apostasy that the Bible talks about? Questions, questions, questions...
More later. At least there are a few of us left, who are following the teachings of the HOLY WORD OF GOD. (Below is the prayer that we pray DAILY at OLL, Mound (Our Lady of the Lake Catholic Church) - May God hear and answer!

Shalom / PEace to Jerusalem and the HOLY LAND, Shalom among Jews, Christians and Muslims with JESUS - Y'SHUA - who is the Way, the Truth and the Life - in the Heart of all!
White

gilgal
10-22-2007, 11:58 AM
This explains why he side the ( unbelieving ) Jews and ( unbelieving ) Israel. He follows the worldly Zionist agenda. I'm not anti-semitic. In fact Jesus was harsher when he told the unbelieving Jews that their father was the devil ( John 8 ). The apostle John was as bold in his epistles saying that he who denies that Jesus is the Christ meaning the Messiah or God's anointed one that he is a liar and an anti-christ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDRxmqOn7x4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7p7o4f4Asg

gilgal
10-22-2007, 12:03 PM
Let me explain further. Many Jews may be ignorant to who Jesus is, but it was the leaders of that time that led them away from the true messiah. The leaers resided in Jerusalem. Thomas had a point when he said in John 11 that if they go to Jerusalem they may all face death by the leaders residing there. They placed all kinds of false accusations that Jesus cast out devils by Beelzebub the prince of devils and that Jesus was born of fornication, that a Roman soldier raped Mary ( John 8 ).

Richard Amiel McGough
10-22-2007, 04:17 PM
:yo:Hi all,
I've been reading in the forum for a few days now, and decided to jump in on this one.
Hi there Trumpet,

Welcome to our forum!

:welcome:

Glad you took the time to comment.


Could this be another "Christian Leader" going the way of his own views? Over the past few decades, there are quite a few that have been exposed and fallen by their own "thing". Certainly he needs our prayers.
Yes, Hagee is certainly "going his own way." The thing that mystifies me is how anybody who has taught the Bible for 40 years could deny that Jesus is the Messiah.

I agree that Hagee needs our prayers, as do his many followers.


As I have been reading in the forum, especially in the eschatology sections, the things that happened to the Jewish people for not advancing their faith and belief into the fullness of belief in Jesus, is clearly spelled out in scripture, and was fulfilled in them after GREAT patience by God, in AD 70. And the Book of Revelation which as it states in verse 1 says that it is The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto him, (John), or more plainly, The revealing of Jesus Christ, (or who Jesus REALLY is).
Yes, I think that the sad state of pop-christian eschatology is due largely to ignorance about the fulfillment of "all that was written" in the first century. Modern pop-prophecy teachers act like the fulfillment of all prophecy in Jesus Christ means absolutely nothing. And the dispensationalists replace the glory of Christ for a dusty chunk of Middle East dirt. They are the ones teaching the real "Replacement Theology."


I believe that this is one of the most important aspects of this Book to us in this time. -That this is who Jesus is, and these are the blessings that follow belief, and the consequences that follow disbelief, sin, and/or apostacy.
In my own life I have suffered consequences of wrong choices, some minor, some major, and I have come to learn that the Spirit is not someone to be grieved, and our God will take action in His good time, and according to how He sees fit.
May God open John Hagee's eyes before severe correction has to be administered.
Amen! :pray:

Richard Amiel McGough
10-22-2007, 04:50 PM
Hey Richard & Rose & all,

How sad that an obviously beloved teacher of the stature of Hagee is falling away from the truth, which is in Christ Jesus - John 14:6 : Jesus said to him : "I am the way, the truth and the life, NO ONE comes to the Father except through Me!"

Rose, your verse - 2 Timothy 3:16 - was preached from every Catholic Pulpit this Sunday - 10/20+21/07 ! You are right on the money. May Hagee repent and turn back to the TRUTH which is in Christ Jesus - Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH - the MESSIAH of all people, Jews and Gentiles.

Paul preaches in Damascus after his conversion... Acts 9:20 : and he (Paul) began at once to proclaim JESUS in the synagogues, that HE IS THE SON OF GOD. All who heard him were astounded and said, "Is not this the man who in Jerusalem ravaged those who call upon his name, and came here expressly to take them back in chains to the chief priests?" But Saul grew all the stronger and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus, proving that this IS THE MESSIAH.

Shall we go back to Saul's Conversion in Acts 9? : Paul fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him : "Saul, Saul, (Hagee, Hagee) why are you persecuting Me?" He said: "Who are you, sir?" "I AM JESUS, WHOM YOU ARE PERSECUTING. Now get up and go into the city and you will be told what you must do."

v. 15 : But the Lord said to Ananias : "Go for this man (Paul) is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before Gentiles, kings and Israelites and I will show him what he will have to suffer for My name." So Ananias went and entered the house; laying his hands on him (Paul), he (Ananias) said, "Saul, (Hagee) my brother, the LORD has sent me, JESUS / Y'SHUA who appeared to you on the way by which you came, that you may regain your sight and be filled with the HOLY SPIRIT." Immediately things like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight. He got up and was baptized, and when he had eaten, he recovered his strength. Notice that Paul was immediately baptized - in water and the Holy Spirit - and Paul became the foremost teacher in the New Testament. From the persecutor of "The Way", Paul proclaimed the Way, the Truth and the Life which is in Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who came to save the world (that INCLUDES the Jews), not to condemn it (John 3:16-17)

May we all pray for Pastor Hagee - may the LORD appear to him and remove the scales from his eyes, that he may see and proclaim the TRUTH which is in MESSIAH Y'SHUA - Jesus Christ.
Hello my friend!

Thanks for testifying to the Truth of Jesus the Jewish Messiah! I stand with you in prayer for Hagee, that he may come to the truth and repent of his sins. But I do not know if he is a Christian, since by definition a Christian believes that Jesus is Messiah. This is so sad! To think of the number of people decieved and confused by his ministry. I am especially sad that his errors might undo the good work of stronger relations between Christians and Jews.


This brings me to my time at Kenesseth Israel in 1999 - right after Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur and the Feast of Tabernacles did I send Rabbi Chaim Goldberger these exact words : "Saul, Saul (Rabbi Goldberger) why are you persecturing ME"? and then "Saul, Saul (Rabbi Goldberger) receive your sight - accept Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH as Messiah". The result was immediate: I was FORBIDDEN to ever enter that Synagogue again, even so I had written Rabbi Goldberger many letters proclaiming JESUS / Y'SHUA as Messiah, but it was when I put it in the context of the Book of Acts that the message became so offensive, that I was told that if I returned to Kenesseth Israel Congregation, I would be arrested ! (I did return two years later and Rabbi Goldberger personally walked me to the door after the entire congregation turned around and followed this humbling experience). Nevertheless, the Jewish People are in my prayers EVERY SINGLE DAY - may the LORD HEAR and ANSWER (Jeremiah 33:3)
Now that's a testimony I can recognize! You got expelled for speaking of Jesus as Messiah. And why do the Jews lift up Hagee? I don't think its because of his bold stand for Jesus as Messiah! You stand in very good company when they expelled you Monique. I'm thinking of what happened to the Apostles when they stood for the truth of Jesus as Messiah of the Jews before the high priest and the council:



Acts 5:40-42 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. 41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. 42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus the Messiah.

I have read that John Hagee has agreed not to "speak the name of Jesus" when speaking to the Jews.


Richard, how many times does Paul proclaim JESUS as Messiah? How many times do the Apostles and especially PETER proclaim JESUS as Messiah (Matthew 16:16ff etc.) - How many verses does Pastor Hagee have to remove from the New Testament to make his "new theory" stick?
John Hagee has to deny the entire New Testament, which is commonly known (via the King James Bible) as "The New Testament of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ [= MESSIAH]". This is a tragedy of immeasurable proporations!


Jesus commissioned the Twelve in Matthew 10:6 : "Go rather to the LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL. As you go, make this proclamation: "THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND. Cure the sick, raise the dead, sleanse lepers, drive out demons. Without cost you have received; without cost you are to give." Amen.

Pastor Hagee's "new teaching" should create such a firestorm that he would have to publicly repent or his ministry shall fall into disgrace because apart from JESUS / Y'SHUA there is NO SALVATION. Ann Coulter is a better theologian than Hagee! If there was SALVATION APART FROM JESUS, why did JESUS - Y'SHUA - have to die? A Messianic Jew is not a perfected Jew but a completed Jew. Jesus is concealed in the Old and revealed in the New.
Right on, Monique! Preach it sister! :thumb: Hagee has been pretty cagey about his "Dual Covenant" theology because he knows that orthodox Christians would reject it, but when you read between the lines, it seems pretty clear that he teaches that Jews don't need Jesus because they already have a "covenant" with God that is "still valid." The Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1139395523403) reported that he and Falwell "endorsed the dual covenant" theology, but they both later denied it. Here's a couple articles that take a close look at Hagee's theology:

http://apostasywatch.com/wolves3/page7.html
http://www.cephas-library.com/assembly_of_god/assembliesofgod_dual_covenant_theology.html



Question : Should TBN or any of the other Christian Netwoks carry such lies?
Many heresies as bad as or worse than John Hagee have been aired over TBN for decades. They make merchandise of the Gospel. Basically, they tell poverty stricken single mothers and old folks living on welfare checks "Give me all your money and God will make you rich! And if you don't, He will curse you!"


Is the whole Evangelical Movement corrupt?
A large segment certainly is. But then, God never identified His Body with "the Evangelical Movement" which is mostly an American Cultural Phenomenon anyway. Its a funny thing, but many folks seem to think that Christianity was born in the USA.


Do any of the other "big names" come to Hagee's defense?
I haven't heard much from the "big names" pro or con. I know that the hucksters like Benny Hinn and Paul Crouch will probably wish once again that they had a "Holy Ghost machine gun" so they could "blow us all away" like when they were called on their previous heresies.


Is this the apostasy that the Bible talks about? Questions, questions, questions...
I don't think this is anything like "the Great Apostasy" that endtime theories talk about because things like this have been going on since the beginning. Remember the words of the Bible written nearly two thousand years ago:



2 Peter 2:1-3 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.



More later. At least there are a few of us left, who are following the teachings of the HOLY WORD OF GOD. (Below is the prayer that we pray DAILY at OLL, Mound (Our Lady of the Lake Catholic Church) - May God hear and answer!

Shalom / PEace to Jerusalem and the HOLY LAND, Shalom among Jews, Christians and Muslims with JESUS - Y'SHUA - who is the Way, the Truth and the Life - in the Heart of all!
White

Thank God that there are MANY who belong to Him.

Richard

PS: I got the CD with the Medallion pictures. I'll be posting them soon. Thanks!

Richard Amiel McGough
10-22-2007, 04:57 PM
This very clearly shows us that we must be diligent to weigh the teachings of all men against what the Word of God says!

And just because a man has a large following of people doesn't mean his teachings are correct

Let us pray for wisdom and discernment :pray:

Rose
Amen to that! It makes me think of the Mormons - they got millions of followers, but their teachings are as false as false can be. And the Muslims ... and Hindus ... and the JWs and the .... that is why God never told us that we'd know the Truth by a majority vote!

Narrow is the way!



Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Richard

White
10-22-2007, 06:30 PM
Hey Richard,

I just posted a ONE STAR on Amazon for Hagee's book - should be a minus 5 star in my opinion.
I quoted Philipians 2:9-11 : "Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, that at the name of JESUS every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD, to the glory of God the Father. How much clearer can it get. So yes, I agree, "Pastor" Hagee is NOT a Christian.

Shalom to Jerusalem and the HOLY LAND - Peace among Jews, Christians and Muslims with JESUS / Y'SHUA in the heart of all.
White

PS:
I just read your entire link "Review of In Defense of Israel" by John Hagee - and guess what? It's funny in a way because independent of your article I quoted Acts Chapter 9 starting with "Saul, Saul, (Hagee, Hagee) why are you persecuting me?" because that passage was so important to my walk with my LORD & SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST, when I attended Kenesseth Israel Congregation. The Holy SPirit is alive and well among those who sincerely seek HIM!

But here is another interesting Testimony involving Temple Israel in Minneapolis and the Catholic Church :
I heard that Cardinal Keeler from Baltimore / Maryland was speaking on Jewish/Catholic Relations in 2001 at Temple Israel - a Reform Synagogue. I decided to attend. As a matter of fact I was sitting next to Mrs Moses (really it is true - that was her name) and I intently listened to the presentations of the Rabbi and the Cardinal followed by a Q & A session. For instance : "Does the Catholic Church have a program to convert the Jews ?" The answer by Cardinal Keeler was eloquent, soft and smooth - much better than Hagee's, but nevertheless the 2 Covenant theory was invoked. I brought with me a folder with some of my letters to Rabbi Chaim Goldberger from Kenesseth Israel Congregation which I intended to give to Cardinal Keeler. I opened up our dialogue as follows:
"Cardinal Keeler, you are absolutely right when you say that "A JEW NEVER HAS TO CONVERT" ... (very long pause) BUT THEY DO HAVE TO ACCEPT JESUS AS MESSIAH!"
I continued explaining that I attended an ORTHODOX SYNAGOGUE for almost a full year in 1998/1999 and then I added:
"Would you like me to give you my writings to Rabbi Goldberger now or do you want me to send them to you?" Cardinal Keeler - after listening to more detailed information - handed me his business card with :"Please send them to me!" It took me a couple of days to put the rather large folder together and within less then 10 days I received Cardinal Keeler's answer acknowledging that he read all I had written and then he wrote: "Thank you for carrying the CROSS OF CHRIST!"
May we all pick up the cross of Christ and may the HOLY SPIRIT be our guide every second of the day. But back to Hagee:

May we then look at the positive concerning Hagee : The name of JESUS is proclaimed - albeit as a STUMBLING STONE and ROCK OF OFFENSE - but let us not lose hope but believe that our LORD & SAVIOR, crucified for our sins, is still sitting on HIS THRONE and HE will turn this around according to Romans 8:28 : "ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD, FOR THOSE WHO LOVE GOD AND WHO ARE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE" - all things ! Who knows, the Present Day Jonah might show up soon and the Jews will have their sign... After all Romans 11:11 is for today: "Hence I ask, did they stumble so as to fall? Of course not! But through their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make them jealous. (12) Now if their transgression is enrichment for the world, and if their diminished number is enrichment for the Gentiles, how much more their full number. (15) For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but LIFE FROM THE DEAD? If the firstfruits are holy, so is the whole batch of dough; and if the root is holy, so are the branches." v. 25: "The deliverer will come out or ZION, he will turn away godlessness fron Jacob and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved, because of the patriarchs. (29) For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. (32) (My favorite:) For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all. The end. - May our LORD & SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST, Y'SHUA HA-MASHAICH - have MERCY on all - that is A L L ! May Israel be saved according to GOD'S WORD as proclaimed in Romans 9 - 11 (which we are reading in the Catholic Church this week - Amen!) LORD hear and answer!

Conc. the Biblewheel Medallion: Is the resolution of the medallion CD better? Please crop the pictures if possible. Looking forward to seeing them on the Biblewheel and www.watchandpray.com together with a link both ways. Thank you Richard for your hard work - your Biblewheel site is outstanding - Shalom!

White
10-22-2007, 09:09 PM
The Vatican has many documents available on Jewish Catholic Relations -
Catholic Timeline on Antisemitism - for instance :

1974 The Vatican Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews issues its Guidelines for Catholic-Jewish Relations: "The spiritual ties and historical relations between the Church and Judaism are enough to condemn, as contrary to the spirit of Christianity, all forms of anti-Semitism and discrimination"

2000:
Pope John Paul II visits Israel. He pays tribute to the victims of the Holocaust at Yad Vashem (the Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority), and he leaves the following prayer between the ancient stones of the Western Wall in Jerusalem:

God of our fathers,
you chose Abraham and his descendants
to bring your Name to the Nations:
we are deeply saddened
by the behavior of those
who in the course of history
have caused these children of yours to suffer,
and asking your forgiveness
we wish to commit ourselves
to genuine brotherhood
with the people of the Covenant

Shalom to All People with Y'SHUA / JESUS in the heart of all!
White

Richard Amiel McGough
10-22-2007, 09:33 PM
Hey Richard,

I just posted a ONE STAR on Amazon for Hagee's book - should be a minus 5 star in my opinion.
I quoted Philipians 2:9-11 : "Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, that at the name of JESUS every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD, to the glory of God the Father. How much clearer can it get. So yes, I agree, "Pastor" Hagee is NOT a Christian.

Shalom to Jerusalem and the HOLY LAND - Peace among Jews, Christians and Muslims with JESUS / Y'SHUA in the heart of all.
White
Hi Monique,

I just read your review on Amazon. Well done! :thumb: Here it is for others to see:


http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/common/customer-reviews/stars-1-0._V47060502_.gif In Defense of Israel, October 22, 2007
By Monique (http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A1LI1ABOHQX30P/ref=cm_cr_auth/103-0757130-7718202) (Mound, MN) - See all my reviews (http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A1LI1ABOHQX30P/ref=cm_cr_auth/103-0757130-7718202?ie=UTF8&sort%5Fby=MostRecentReview)
Pastor Hagee whose weekly message is reaching millions of people from his Cornerstone Church in St. Antonio, Texas, has forsaken Jesus Christ as Messiah. Listen to these quotes from his latest Book :
- If God intended for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel, why didn't he authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God's Messiah, just as Moses had done? (page 137)
- Jesus refused to produce a sign... because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be Messiah. (page 138)
- The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews (p. 140)
- They wanted him to be their Messiah, but he flatly refused. (page 142)
- He refused to be their Messiah, choosing instead to be the Savior of the world. (page 143)
- Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of Messiah in word or deed. (page 145)

This book is not worthy of any Pastor, let alone one who built his entire Ministry (and reportedly makes $ 1 000 000 per year) on the Name of Jesus because "Pastor" Hagee has clearly abandoned the faith. Philippians 2:9-10 : "Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, that at the name of JESUS / Y'SHUA every knee should bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that JESUS CHRIST is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Be gentle as a dove and wise as a serpent. Don't buy this or any of his books. Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah) ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son. (1John 2:22. What's next?


I too have read that he makes over a million bucks a year selling his anti-gospel.

I also gave him a "one star" rating. Right now his book is averaging slightly over two stars. I expect that to drop quickly as more real Christians find out that he has denied the Lord Jesus Christ.


PS:
I just read your entire link "Review of In Defense of Israel" by John Hagee - and guess what? It's funny in a way because independent of your article I quoted Acts Chapter 9 starting with "Saul, Saul, (Hagee, Hagee) why are you persecuting me?" because that passage was so important to my walk with my LORD & SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST, when I attended Kenesseth Israel Congregation. The Holy SPirit is alive and well among those who sincerely seek HIM!
Yes, Acts 9 is very important because it shows that Paul (then Saul) began preaching that Jesus is the MESSIAH immedately after the scales fell from his eyes. Let us pray that the scales fall from Hagee's eyes soon.


But here is another interesting Testimony involving Temple Israel in Minneapolis and the Catholic Church :
I heard that Cardinal Keeler from Baltimore / Maryland was speaking on Jewish/Catholic Relations in 2001 at Temple Israel - a Reform Synagogue. I decided to attend. As a matter of fact I was sitting next to Mrs Moses (really it is true - that was her name) and I intently listened to the presentations of the Rabbi and the Cardinal followed by a Q & A session. For instance : "Does the Catholic Church have a program to convert the Jews ?" The answer by Cardinal Keeler was eloquent, soft and smooth - much better than Hagee's, but nevertheless the 2 Covenant theory was invoked. I brought with me a folder with some of my letters to Rabbi Chaim Goldberger from Kenesseth Israel Congregation which I intended to give to Cardinal Keeler. I opened up our dialogue as follows:
"Cardinal Keeler, you are absolutely right when you say that "A JEW NEVER HAS TO CONVERT" ... (very long pause) BUT THEY DO HAVE TO ACCEPT JESUS AS MESSIAH!"
I continued explaining that I attended an ORTHODOX SYNAGOGUE for almost a full year in 1998/1999 and then I added:
"Would you like me to give you my writings to Rabbi Goldberger now or do you want me to send them to you?" Cardinal Keeler - after listening to more detailed information - handed me his business card with :"Please send them to me!" It took me a couple of days to put the rather large folder together and within less then 10 days I received Cardinal Keeler's answer acknowledging that he read all I had written and then he wrote: "Thank you for carrying the CROSS OF CHRIST!"
May we all pick up the cross of Christ and may the HOLY SPIRIT be our guide every second of the day.
That is very interesting about the Catholics teaching the Two Covenant theory. I would think it was just the private interpretation of Keeler. But then again, with the great devotion of John Paul II towards the Jews, it may be the norm in the RCC. Do you know?


But back to Hagee:

May we then look at the positive concerning Hagee : The name of JESUS is proclaimed - albeit as a STUMBLING STONE and ROCK OF OFFENSE - but let us not lose hope but believe that our LORD & SAVIOR, crucified for our sins, is still sitting on HIS THRONE and HE will turn this around according to Romans 8:28 : "ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD, FOR THOSE WHO LOVE GOD AND WHO ARE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE" - all things !
I agree completely. I do not lose heart at all, for I know that folks have been perverting the Gospel since the Gospel was first preached, yet the true Gospel remains and is preached from many pulpits, and in the lives of many saints and children of God. I know it will never be defeated. But still, it is our jobs to stand up for God's Truth when it is being denied, so that others can hear the clear proclamation of Jesus the Messiah.


Who knows, the Present Day Jonah might show up soon and the Jews will have their sign... After all Romans 11:11 is for today: "Hence I ask, did they stumble so as to fall? Of course not! But through their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make them jealous. (12) Now if their transgression is enrichment for the world, and if their diminished number is enrichment for the Gentiles, how much more their full number. (15) For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but LIFE FROM THE DEAD? If the firstfruits are holy, so is the whole batch of dough; and if the root is holy, so are the branches." v. 25: "The deliverer will come out or ZION, he will turn away godlessness fron Jacob and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved, because of the patriarchs. (29) For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. (32) (My favorite:) For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all. The end. - May our LORD & SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST, Y'SHUA HA-MASHAICH - have MERCY on all - that is A L L ! May Israel be saved according to GOD'S WORD as proclaimed in Romans 9 - 11 (which we are reading in the Catholic Church this week - Amen!) LORD hear and answer!
Yes, that passage from Romans is most amazing! Life from the Dead. What a wonder there is coming!



Conc. the Biblewheel Medallion: Is the resolution of the medallion CD better? Please crop the pictures if possible. Looking forward to seeing them on the Biblewheel and www.watchandpray.com (http://www.watchandpray.com) together with a link both ways. Thank you Richard for your hard work - your Biblewheel site is outstanding - Shalom!
Yes, the resolution is MUCH better, and the colors too. But the focus is a little fuzzy in most of them. I will do my best, and then get the pics posted on both our sites.

God bless you as you serve our King Messiah,

Richard

gilgal
10-23-2007, 07:57 AM
he's becoming more and more popular and accepted by the world.

Richard Amiel McGough
10-23-2007, 08:27 AM
he's becoming more and more popular and accepted by the world.
Well, that makes sense .... given James 4:4



James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.


Richard

White
10-25-2007, 12:42 PM
Hey Richard,

Just checked Hagee's book rating - it is down to 2 ** - in my opinion minus 5 ***** would be more acurate. But he is still in the #700 top sellers which is way too high. Knocking him down to a one star might discourage people from buying his book. Of course the Jewish Readers will love his heresy. What damage he has done to the cause of Christ. I am so very sad about his change of heart. May we never be tempted to speak out of both sides of our mouths like Hagee did - one message to the Jews and an entirely different message to the Christian Community which incidentially supports his ministry to the tune of $ 1 Million in Hagee's own pocket.

Nevertheless, even the Jews are not too happy with Hagee -
albeit for different reasons than us Evangelicals, Catholics and Believers in Jesus Christ - our LORD and SAVIOR - Y'SHUA HA'MASHIACH - who came as SAVIOR of all people, including our beloved Jewish Brethren.

Go to www.forward.com - "When We Let John Hagee Speak for Us" - May 18, 2007 by Eric Yoffie - President of the Union for Reform Judaism. You will find it interesting.

May the LORD HIMSELF open the eyes and ears of the unbeliever, Jew or Gentile, because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23 - my reading at OLL this morning), may we then be slaves to CHRIST and not sin and follow HIS COMMANDMENT to LOVE GOD with all our heart, mind, soul and strength and to LOVE OUR NEIGHOR as ourselves.

I wonder how Hagee interprets Matthew 23:37ff in his book - Jesus so clearly states that He came for and to Jerusalem to gather them "in":

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were UNWILLING! Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD."

This passage is followed by the 24th Chapter of Matthew which is the eschatological discourse dealing with the coming of the new age in its fullness, with events that will precede it etc. May we then ask how to conduct ourselves in light of the events of our days, but may we never ever deny Jesus / Y'SHUA as LORD and SAVIOR, the Messiah, to the Jew first and then the Gentile. "Blessed is he who comes in the Name of the LORD."

Shalom to Jerusalem and the Holy Land, Shalom to Jews, Christians and Muslims with Jesus / Y'shua in the heart of all.
Monique

White
10-25-2007, 01:07 PM
Hey Richard,

Just found this on that Jewish site (www.forward.com) about Ann Coulter's insulting the Jewish People on Donny Deutsch's show - Jesus is proclaimed around America - for good or for bad - HE is front page news:

Coulter’s Indecency


Thu. Oct 18, 2007
Ann Coulter, the clown princess of right-wing chatter, has always been a reassuring figure to liberals. The rubbish she spews forth — 9/11 widows “enjoy their husbands’ deaths,” liberals are “traitors,” John Edwards is a “faggot” — seems like a comforting reminder of America’s native tolerance and good sense. Like Archie Bunker, she airs our worst prejudices and turns them into a joke. American democracy comes out stronger as a result, or so we assume. After all, Americans don’t really believe that anyone who disagrees with them is a traitor. Besides, she couldn’t really mean what she says.


All the more shocking, then, was her statement last week on CNBC television that her vision of an ideal America is a nation that is entirely Christian. Her words left her host, Donny Deutsch, genuinely insulted. Coulter was flustered; this was a rare appearance in a venue that was neither sympathetically right-wing nor comedic. Having to confront a victim of her venom face to face, Coulter was visibly distressed. She couldn’t sneer her way out of it. And so she pleaded for understanding, insisting that she meant every word, but that it should not be taken as offensive. It’s merely the faith of Christians: that Jews should be “perfected” by embracing Jesus. (My comment: she obviously meant completed rather than "perfected"...)

She’s right of course. Christians have believed for two millennia that Jews need to be “perfected” through Jesus. For most of that time, that’s been taken as a mandate to torture, burn and dismember Jews, all in the pursuit of “perfecting” them. America was meant to be different — a country where no religion could claim the exclusive right to define society and press itself on others. Coulter seemed blissfully unaware of all that.

More alarming, though, was her obvious distress at her host’s pain. Coulter, it appears, is not a jokester. She thinks of herself as a serious thinker. In effect, we learned, all her vile statements over the years about blacks, Muslims, gays and women were equally sincere. She is, in other words, a purveyor of rank indecency. Television stations should not be begged to keep her off the air. If the decency laws have any meaning, broadcasters should be fined for hosting her.

Comment : Please watch the clip on "You Tube" - its interesting and funny to a Christian, somewhat uncomfortable to an non-Christian, especially a Jew, but then don't Jews believe that "their way" is the right way, and Muslims believe "their way" is the only way etc. Religion demands a decision. May we make the right decision and give Jesus / Y'shua all our heart, all our mind, all our soul and serve Him with all our strength. Amen.

Shalom,
Monique

White
10-25-2007, 01:44 PM
Hey Richard,

We might just have to start a page for the apostate antichrist teaching of the rich and famous and powerful such as for instance

President Bush - our "Evangelical" President :

See http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2007/cbarchive_20071016.html

And http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2007/cbarchive_20071009.html

For the sake of those who missed it, ABC’s Charles Gibson recently
interviewed President George W. Bush. Here is a verbatim transcript
from that interview:

Q. “Do we all worship the same God, Christian and Muslim?”
A. “I think we do. We have different routes of getting to the
Almighty.”

Q. “Do Christians and non-Christians and Muslims go to heaven in your
mind?”
A. “Yes they do. We have different routes of getting there.”

Then, just a few days ago, President Bush, in an interview with Al
Arabiya television, said, “I believe in an almighty God, and I believe
that all the world, whether they be Muslim, Christian, or any other
religion, prays to the same God.” In the same interview he said, “I
believe there is a universal God. I believe the God that the Muslim
prays to is the same God that I pray to. After all, we all came from
Abraham. I believe in that universality.”

Obviously, this is not the confession of a Christian. It is the
confession of a universalist.

Bush’s beliefs remind me of the book co-authored by Muhammad Ali,
Thomas Houser, and Richard Dominick entitled Healing: A Journal of
Tolerance and Understanding. In this book Muhammad Ali writes, “If
you’re a good Muslim, if you’re a good Christian, if you’re a good
Jew: it doesn’t matter what religion you are, if you’re a good person,
you’ll receive God’s blessing.” (p. 3)

“The great monotheistic religions of the world all worship the same
God. They just call him by different names.” (p. 9)

“All people serve the same God. We just serve Him in different ways.”
(p. 32)

By definition, both President Bush and Muhammad Ali believe the same
thing: they are both universalists.

Baker’s Dictionary of Theology, page 539, defines Universalism this
way: “Universalism is the doctrine of ultimate well-being of every
person. The doctrine has a pagan and a Christian form. According to
the former, all will ultimately be happy because all are, by nature,
the creatures and children of God. The universalistic heresy (it is
rejected by the general tradition of the church–Eastern, Roman and
Protestant) in Christianity teaches that although all of the human
creatures of God have fallen into sin and are lost, all will be saved
through the universal redemption of Christ.”

President Bush’s infatuation with universalism is tied to his
commitment to universal (or global) government. You see, Bush is part
of an elitist cabal that is attempting to carve out an international
New World Order. And in order for global (or even regional) government
to take shape, there must be an acceptance of global religion. In
other words, universalism is the religion of the New World Order, the
United Nations, and all those who desire global government.

To anyone who understands the true message of Christ, however, the
doctrine of universalism is anathema.

Every true believer in Christ understands Him to be the God-Man, the
Creator-God become flesh (John 1:1-3, 14). We understand that Jesus is
the only way to Heaven (John 14:6). We take Christ at His word, when
He told us, “I and my Father are one.” (John 10:30) We believe Him
when He said, “[H]e that hath seen me hath seen the Father.” (John
14:9) We understand that Jesus is the “fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
(Col. 2:9)

No real Christian could say that every religion worships the same God
or that everyone is going to Heaven, regardless of who or what they
worship. Only a universalist could make such a statement. I say it
again, President Bush is a universalist.

Furthermore, because President Bush has convinced everyone that he is
a Christian, his erroneous remarks portend much evil. Why? Because
many professing Christians will take the word of an apostate President
over the word of their own pastors or even the very Word of God. This
is not to mention the damage he has done to the testimony of Christ in
giving unbelievers a false sense of security in worshipping false gods
and believing false doctrines.

Accordingly, I invite readers to view a Sunday address that I just
recently delivered to the people of my church. The title of the
address is, “Do Christians and Muslims Worship The Same God?” There is
no charge to watch or download this video sermon. One may even
download the message as an MP3 file for use in one’s IPOD. In fact, I
pray that God will give the message wide distribution. It just might
be the most important message I have ever delivered. See the video
sermon here:
http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/sermonvideo.html

Comment:

How much darker can it get?

Shalom in the Holy Name of Jesus Christ - my LORD & SAVIOR
Monique

Richard Amiel McGough
10-26-2007, 12:16 PM
Hey Richard,

We might just have to start a page for the apostate antichrist teaching of the rich and famous and powerful such as for instance

President Bush - our "Evangelical" President :

See http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2007/cbarchive_20071016.html

And http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2007/cbarchive_20071009.html

For the sake of those who missed it, ABC’s Charles Gibson recently
interviewed President George W. Bush. Here is a verbatim transcript
from that interview:

Q. 'Do we all worship the same God, Christian and Muslim?'
A. 'I think we do. We have different routes of getting to the
Almighty.'

Q. 'Do Christians and non-Christians and Muslims go to heaven in your
mind?'
A. 'Yes they do. We have different routes of getting there.'
Hi Monique,

Bush doesn't seem to have a clue about what he is saying. Maybe he should ask Muslim if "Christians" go to heaven "by a different route." He might be surprised at their answer. It is a great irony that all "orthodox" Muslims must disagree with him, because they vehemently deny worshipping "our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).

But on the other hand, I do believe it is correct to say that there are many folks trapped in Islam that are ignorantly worshipping the true God in the sense of "aiming" their prayers to the one true Creator though they don't know His name as yet. Of course, Bush wouldn't dare say anything like that, because that would be denying the godhood of Allah. And we know Bush wouldn't want to be an Apostate Muslim! Horrors! They might chop his head off. Its much safer to just deny the True God of Christianity. That might even win him points in the Main Stream Media!



Then, just a few days ago, President Bush, in an interview with Al
Arabiya television, said, 'I believe in an almighty God, and I believe
that all the world, whether they be Muslim, Christian, or any other
religion, prays to the same God.' In the same interview he said, 'I
believe there is a universal God. I believe the God that the Muslim
prays to is the same God that I pray to. After all, we all came from
Abraham. I believe in that universality.'

Obviously, this is not the confession of a Christian. It is the confession of a universalist.
Bush is correct that God is "universal" in the sense that he is the One God of all Creation, but that doesn't mean that every prayer to every false god and every pagan demon is really a prayer to the True God! Bush is just plain nuts on this. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.



Bush’s beliefs remind me of the book co-authored by Muhammad Ali,
Thomas Houser, and Richard Dominick entitled Healing: A Journal of
Tolerance and Understanding. In this book Muhammad Ali writes, 'If
you’re a good Muslim, if you’re a good Christian, if you’re a good
Jew: it doesn’t matter what religion you are, if you’re a good person,
you’ll receive God’s blessing.' (p. 3)
How "good" can a person be if they deny God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ? Its one thing to be ignorant of the truth - we are all born that way, and remain that way to a very large extent until the day we die. But its quite another to say that there is no truth, and that it doesn't matter what you beleive so long as you are "good."




'The great monotheistic religions of the world all worship the same
God. They just call him by different names.' (p. 9)

'All people serve the same God. We just serve Him in different ways.'
(p. 32)

By definition, both President Bush and Muhammad Ali believe the same
thing: they are both universalists.

Baker’s Dictionary of Theology, page 539, defines Universalism this
way: 'Universalism is the doctrine of ultimate well-being of every
person. The doctrine has a pagan and a Christian form. According to
the former, all will ultimately be happy because all are, by nature,
the creatures and children of God. The universalistic heresy (it is
rejected by the general tradition of the church–Eastern, Roman and
Protestant) in Christianity teaches that although all of the human
creatures of God have fallen into sin and are lost, all will be saved
through the universal redemption of Christ.'


I agree that Bush sounds like a pagan universalist here. But I disagree that Christian universalism is a "heresy." The evangelical form of "universalism" says Christ will succeed in redeeming everyone from hell. It don't see why this doctrine would be logically inconsistent with orthodoxy because the only issue disputed is the number that Christ succeeds in saving. For example, lets say orthodox evangelical Christianity says 33% get saved, or 44% or 88% or .... at what point would the percentage become "logically heretical"? Could Christ succeed in saving 99%? 99.9999999% How many souls MUST to be damned for the doctrine to be "orthodox"? I started a new thread called "Evangelical Universalism: Gospel or Heresy? (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2884)" to discuss it.




President Bush’s infatuation with universalism is tied to his
commitment to universal (or global) government. You see, Bush is part
of an elitist cabal that is attempting to carve out an international
New World Order. And in order for global (or even regional) government
to take shape, there must be an acceptance of global religion. In
other words, universalism is the religion of the New World Order, the
United Nations, and all those who desire global government.
I tend to doubt these kinds of claims. Conspiracy theories and "cabals" and the "One World Government" all seems like pulp fiction to me. It just doesn't ring true in my ears.



To anyone who understands the true message of Christ, however, the
doctrine of universalism is anathema.
I agree completely if you are speaking of a "universalism" that is based on anything but the Gospel of Christ.



Every true believer in Christ understands Him to be the God-Man, the
Creator-God become flesh (John 1:1-3, 14). We understand that Jesus is
the only way to Heaven (John 14:6). We take Christ at His word, when
He told us, 'I and my Father are one.' (John 10:30) We believe Him
when He said, '[H]e that hath seen me hath seen the Father.' (John
14:9) We understand that Jesus is the 'fulness of the Godhead bodily.'
(Col. 2:9)

No real Christian could say that every religion worships the same God
or that everyone is going to Heaven, regardless of who or what they
worship. Only a universalist could make such a statement. I say it
again, President Bush is a universalist.
Yep! You are absolutely correct! Bush sounds like a pagan universalist. He' sounds just like Joel Olsteen who says that [paraphrase] "Jesus is the way for me, but not for everyone else. There are many paths. I can't judge.... blah blah blah ... :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:


Furthermore, because President Bush has convinced everyone that he is a Christian, his erroneous remarks portend much evil. Why? Because many professing Christians will take the word of an apostate President over the word of their own pastors or even the very Word of God. This is not to mention the damage he has done to the testimony of Christ in giving unbelievers a false sense of security in worshipping false gods and believing false doctrines.
Actually, its much worse than that, because the most popular preachers are often themselves incapabable of proclaiming the most elementary aspects of the faith. Again, I speak of Joel Olsteen who can not even say that Jesus is the Way! Read the facts and weep:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/229-joel-osteen



Accordingly, I invite readers to view a Sunday address that I just
recently delivered to the people of my church. The title of the
address is, 'Do Christians and Muslims Worship The Same God?' There is
no charge to watch or download this video sermon. One may even
download the message as an MP3 file for use in one’s IPOD. In fact, I
pray that God will give the message wide distribution. It just might
be the most important message I have ever delivered. See the video
sermon here:
http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/sermonvideo.html

Comment:

How much darker can it get?

Shalom in the Holy Name of Jesus Christ - my LORD & SAVIOR
Monique
I do not think there is any limit to "how much darker" it will get in the world. But let us thank God and rejoice that He has given us the True Light!

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

I could go on! The Gospel of Christ could aptly be called the "Gospel of the Light of God."

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
10-27-2007, 10:13 PM
Here's another blog that picked up on my review of Hagee's book:

http://www.yesumulungi.com/Apologetics/Appologs36.htm

So far, I've only seen one person attempt to support Hagee on any of the blogs. His arguments were pretty weak and were quickly refuted by others. You can read his post on pjmillers (http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/review-of-in-defense-of-israel-by-john-hagee/) blog. The pro-Hagee post is number 12. It is refuted in the posts that follow it, particularly post 14.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
10-28-2007, 02:43 PM
To date, I have found only one attempt online to justify John Hagee's book In Defense of Israel. I found it over on pjmiller's blog (http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/review-of-in-defense-of-israel-by-john-hagee/). It's post 12 (http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/review-of-in-defense-of-israel-by-john-hagee/#comment-1554)by someone named "Ryan." Here it is:



Hagee is not saying that Jesus was not the Messiah.

What Hagee is saying is that the Jews were expecting a political Messiah, a leader who would, like Moses, deliver them from the hands of the Romans at the time.

That is not why Christ came nor is it what Christ offered to do. Prophecy pointed to Jesus as The Messiah, and Jesus fulfilled that prophecy and was the Messiah.

The Jews were wanting Jesus to be the deliverer of the Jewish people from oppression. They were not looking at Him as a spiritual Messiah who would deliver them from their sins. They did not see Jesus as the perfect Blood Sacrifice that He had been sent to earth for.

Everything Hagee says about Christ’s refusal to be the Messiah TO THE JEWS is absolutely true.

Christ was there to be the Messiah for the WHOLE WORLD.

Christ was not sent by God to show signs or to be the earthly Messiah the Jews wanted.

Hagee’s book never rejects Christ as THE MESSIAH. Hagee himself never rejects Christ as THE MESSIAH.

To claim that Christ was the earthly Messiah is to clearly go against Scripture and history as you can see that Christ NEVER did that.

To claim Hagee is an anti-Christ and a heretic is to take the words he has written out of context and to twist and warp the words he has written, just as you have wrongly accused him of doing to Scripture.

Hagee is a firm believer in every word of the Scripture and has preached such his whole life. Clearly you seek to undermine him and his teachings, or else you could see around these foolish accusations that after 40 years of being so close to God, he has had a change of heart.


Ryan's post displays the gross confusion Hagee has wrought in the body of Christ by his equivocation over the word "Messiah." In one sentence, Hagee means "THE MESSIAH" (meaning the true Biblical Messiah) and in another sentence he means nothing but a "political Messiah."

It appears that this confusion was by design, with an aim to deceive. In his effort to exonerate "the Jews" Hagee almost always used the word "Messiah" to mean "a political Messiah" except at one key point - the beginning of his argument! We need only quote his own words in context to expose the deceptive methods of this serpentine teacher of God's Holy Word:

=================================================
From In Defense of Israel, page 132 (formatted as in the original):
=================================================

The Jews Did not Reject Jesus as Messiah

Most evangelicals believe the Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah and therefore qualify for God's eternal judgment. Replacement theologians have said that "the covenant with Israel was broken because she would not accept Jesus Christ whom God sent." (6)

Is this statement about the Jewish people biblically true? No! In order to respond to this misstatement about the Jews, several questions must be answered:

=================================================
End quote
=================================================

In the first sentence, Hagee asserts that "Most evangelicals believe the Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah." This means that "Messiah" here must be taken in the "evangelical" sense, or the sentence would be false. The same sense is implied in the quote concerning "Jesus Christ whom God sent." I will refer to this "Messiah" as the Biblical Messiah.

Hagee then asserted that "this statement" is false. What statement? The statement that the Jews rejected Jesus as the Biblical Messiah! But what then does Hagee argue throughout the next dozen pages? He argued that the Jews did not reject Jesus as the Political Messiah! This is PURE MADNESS :woah: Hagee's argument is logically incoherent. Technically, he based his entire thesis on the logical fallacy known as an equivocation (http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/skepticism/blfaq_fall_equivocation.htm), meaning that he used the word "Messiah" with two different meanings in the same argument. He posed the question: "Did the Jews reject Jesus as the Biblical Messiah?" and then set about to prove that they did not reject Him as a Political Messiah. In layman's terms, Hagee pulled a "bait and switch" on his readers. The gravity of this sin is evident in the fact that he has deceived so many people. Ryan never had a clue that Hagee had pulled the wool over his eyes and robbed him of the Biblical truth of Jesus as the Biblical Messiah. And worse, any Jew reading his book can say "Right on! Jesus was no Messiah!" Hagee's teachings put souls in danger.

Ryan's post touches upon many of Hagee's other logical and Biblical errors, but I see no need to refute them at this time since his primary errors have been conclusively exposed and refuted.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
10-29-2007, 05:32 PM
I found another attempt to justify Hagee's book by one "Anne" "Seeker of Truth" in the comment section of Amazon.com (link (http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R30F10BROCITBP/103-0757130-7718202?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1599792109&ref%5F=cm%5Fcr%5Fdp%5Fcmt&newContentID=Tx1ZXVKXDH7A2MQ#CustomerDiscussions)) .

Here are her comments:





http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/common/customer-reviews/stars-4-0._V47081936_.gif Please be careful about what you say until you have found truth!! , October 29, 2007
By "Anne" "seeker of truth" (http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A3JWC9MRQF2DXO/ref=cm_cr_rdp_pdp/103-0757130-7718202)
I saw John Hagee's video promoting his book and it is shocking. I then decided I would buy the book to determine the truth. After reading the book, I was so confused because John Hagee is a solid man of God! I had to get to the bottom of the truth.

Here is what a pastor of Cornerstone Church told me on behalf of what John Hagee believes.

1. John Hagee believes that Jesus did not come to be the Messiah JUST to the Jews, but to the whole world.

2. John Hagee firmly believes that Jews must believe in Christ Jesus to be saved.

I found that John Hagee is so bent on refuting replacement theology that he was not clear in what he was trying to say in this book. I feel John Hagee could have done a better job in explaining what he meant. That is why I gave 4 stars instead of 5.

This book is ABSOLUTELY not as some have said "anti-christ". John Hagee is trying to show that Jesus is the saving Christ to all people, including the Jews not JUST the jews.

What John Hagee is saying is that the Jews were looking for the Messiah to be a person that would literally save them from the Roman empire just as Moses saved them from Egypt and that Jesus was telling the Jews that he was not going to be the messiah from Rome because he is the savior of the world. If you read this book, knowing the statements from Hagee's church itself, you will see what the truth is in what he is saying.

The book is absolutely right on about supporting Israel and the Jews. That is our job as Christians.


And here is my response:

There are two biblical definitions of "antichrist." The one that applies to John Hagee is found in 1 John 2:22:

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ [Messiah]? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

On the mere face of it, Hagee's statement that "Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of Messiah in word or deed" (p. 144) qualifies him as antichrist. But let us not rush into judgment. Perhaps he was misunderstood. Perhaps we should listen to his students who attempt to correct their teacher by putting words in his mouth, saying that by "Messiah" Hagee was not talking about the Biblical role of Messiah fulfilled by Jesus, but only "a political Messiah" that would free them from Rome. Of course, if that is true it only adds to the proof that Hagee is a dangerously incompetent Bible teacher, for the Bible prophesies nothing of any "political Messiah" that would come just to save the Jews from the Romans. And no Bible teacher possessing the most elementary knowledge of Christ would ever deny that He was Messiah under any circumstances, because the declaration that Jesus is Messiah is part of the fundamental definition of the Christian faith. The first century Jewish martyrs who sacrificed their lives for the proclamation that Jesus is Messiah cry out from their graves against the antichrist heresy of John Hagee. But be that as it may, let us suppose that Hagee's students are correct, and all he really meant by "Messiah to the Jews" was "a political Messiah" that would smash Rome. Does this solve the problem of Hagee's apparent heresy?

The answer is easy to find. Hagee's repeated and emphatic denials of Jesus as Messiah were part of a twelve page segment of his book in which he was attempting to prove a statement made on page 132. Here are the exact words of John Hagee stated in full between the "====" lines:

=================================================
The Jews Did not Reject Jesus as Messiah

Most evangelicals believe the Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah and therefore qualify for God's eternal judgment. Replacement theologians have said that "the covenant with Israel was broken because she would not accept Jesus Christ whom God sent." (6)

Is this statement about the Jewish people biblically true? No! In order to respond to this misstatement about the Jews, several questions must be answered:
=================================================

Hagee's point was to prove that "the Jews did not reject Jesus as Messiah." But what meaning of Messiah did he intend here? Well, his first sentence says that "most EVANGELICALS believe the Jews rejected Jesus as MESSIAH" so he must be using the word "Messiah" in the "evangelical" sense, or his statement would be false. Likewise, his reference to "Jesus Christ whom God sent" must also be understood in the "evangelical" sense of Jesus Christ the True Messiah sent by God to save us from our sins. But what sense does Hagee then use THROUGHOUT the rest of his argument? He argues that the Jews can not be "blamed" for rejecting Jesus as the Biblical Saviour Messiah because He did not come to be a "political Messiah" that would smash Rome!

Do you get it? THIS IS MADNESS! RANK INSANITY. Hagee pulled a classic "bait and switch" and fooled a multitude, including yourself! Besides being wickedly deceptive and moronically incoherent, his argument is also logically fallacious! The fallacy is called "equivocation." It happens when a person changes the definition in the middle of the argument. There is no excuse for this kind of deception coming from the pulpit of "America's Pastor" as he likes to have himself called. But the real mystery is how did this obvious sham argument get past the editors? Indeed, how did it get past you?

Now as for Hagee's teachings about Jews and salvation, it is not at all clear that he believes that the Jews must believe in Christ to be saved. On the contrary, he teaches that the Old Covenant is still valid and ethnic Israel "still has a covenant with God" through the Torah. (p. 167). He then denies that the New Covenant "replaced" the Old Covenant. He appears to believe the dual covenant heresy that says the Jews can get to God through Torah. Again, he has exposed himself as a theological hack. He is a dangerously incompetent Bible teacher. That's all there is to it.

gilgal
10-29-2007, 06:26 PM
Thing about these big shots whether in Religious or Politicians... their statements always make it look so blurry that you can't understand which side they're on.

But I ask, "How can John Hagee side with Israel against Lebanon when Lebanon is more tolerant towards Christians?"

Richard Amiel McGough
10-29-2007, 06:37 PM
I found this John Hagee interview in the archives (http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=1988_540301) of the Houston Chronicle. Here is the header information:



Paper: HOUSTON CHRONICLE
Date: SAT 04/30/1988
Section: Religion
Page: 1
Edition: 2 STAR

San Antonio fundamentalist battles anti-Semitism

By JULIA DUIN, Houston Chronicle Religion Writer
Staff

And here is a snippet of the article. Read it and weap for the untold thousands that have been misled by the apostasy of John Hagee:



In fact, trying to convert Jews is a "waste of time," he said. "The Jewish person who has his roots in Judaism is not going to convert to Christianity. There is no form of Christian evangelism that has failed so miserably as evangelizing the Jewish people. They (already) have a faith structure."

Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha'i, needs to believe in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a covenant with God that has never been replaced by Christianity, he says.

"The Jewish people have a relationship to God through the law of God as given through Moses," Hagee said. "I believe that every Gentile person can only come to God through the cross of Christ. I believe that every Jewish person who lives in the light of the Torah, which is the word of God, has a relationship with God and will come to redemption.

"The law of Moses is sufficient enough to bring a person into the knowledge of God until God gives him a greater revelation. And God has not," said Hagee, giving his interpretation of Romans 11:25. "Paul abandoned the idea (of Jews knowing Christ). In the book of Romans, he said, `I am now going to go to the Gentiles from this time forward.' Judaism doesn't need Christianity to explain its existence. But Christianity has to have Judaism to explain its existence."


Consider this: If one word of this article were false and Hagee were an orthodox Christian, he would be compelled to have a clear refutation on his website. He does not. So we must assume he still holds to these heretical beliefs. Furthermore, he continues in his assertion that the Old Covenant is still valid, though it looks like he is doing his best to decieve people by hiding his true dual covenant beliefs since that would cause all orthodox Christians to reject him.

I truly believe that one of the primary reasons Hagee's teachings are so confused is because he is trying to hide his true beliefs. Jesus was NOT the Messiah "to the Jews" but he was the Messiah to everyone else? But since he wasn't the Messiah "to the Jews" they can't be "blamed" for not believing in Him? :woah:

Here are a couple relevent links:

The Other Gospel of John Hagee (http://www.pfo.org/jonhagee.htm)

To the Jew First (http://www.inplainsite.org/html/two_covenant.html) (A Biblical Analysis of the "Two Covenant" Theory of the Atonement)


Richard

gilgal
10-29-2007, 06:56 PM
This goes back to Galatians and Hebrews.

Paul said in Galatians that if by circumcision comes salvation then Christ died for nothing.

Those things, the law and circumcision never guaranteed us salvation. The Law points our sinful nature and God's standard. Jesus came to wash us from the guilt of breaking the law.

Richard Amiel McGough
10-29-2007, 07:27 PM
This goes back to Galatians and Hebrews.

Paul said in Galatians that if by circumcision comes salvation then Christ died for nothing.

Those things, the law and circumcision never guaranteed us salvation. The Law points our sinful nature and God's standard. Jesus came to wash us from the guilt of breaking the law.
Excellent points. That's why this error is so significant. The Bible calls it ANATHEMA.

Richard Amiel McGough
10-31-2007, 12:23 PM
Here are a couple more sites that have picked up on my review:


http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/bb/viewtopic.php?p=298956&sid=0d9f4ce9f76e87b9654b19004f797ae8

http://www.forgottenword.org/hagee.html

The word is getting out. Most supporters of Hagee say things like "I am shocked! Horrified!" but then go on to suggest what Hagee "really meant" was only "a political Messiah." It shows the sad sad condition of the current evangelical mind. No genuine Christian would EVER under any circumstances deny that Jesus is the Messiah. Read Hagee's words again:

* If God intended for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel, why didn't he authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God's Messiah, just as Moses had done? (p. 137)

* Jesus refused to produce a sign ... because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be Messiah. (p 138)

* If Jesus wanted to be Messiah, why did he repeatedly tell his disciples and followers to "tell no one" about his supernatural accomplishments? (p. 139)

* The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews. (p. 140)
They wanted him to be their Messiah, but he flatly refused. (p. 141)

* He refused to be their Messiah, choosing instead to be the Savior of the world (p. 143)
* Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of Messiah in word or deed. (p. 145)

In response to Hagee's words I declare absolutely and unequivocally that ...


the BLOOD of
the first century Jewish martyrs

who sacrificed their lives for the proclamation that

Jesus is Messiah

cries out against the apostate antichrist
heresy of John Hagee!


And that's all there is to it.

Richard

gilgal
10-31-2007, 01:12 PM
* If God intended for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel, why didn't he authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God's Messiah, just as Moses had done? (p. 137)
Arnold Fruchtenbaum did an excellent study on Jesus' Messiah-ship when he came to Montreal years ago.

A leper is checked by the priest ( Leviticus 13 14 ). If he's truly leprous the priest would tear his clothes and send him out of town away from the people.
And if a leper is cleansed from his leprousy he would need to see a priest again to be declared as clean.

Historical record shows no one is cleansed of leprousy except for Myriam before the writing of the law ( Numbers 12? ) and Naaman the Syrian ( Gentile 2 kings 5 ) who wasn't under the law.

So that showed that if there any lepers cleansed it would be through the Messiah. When Jesus began his ministry he found a leper ( Luke 5 ). For the first time the leper was physically touched my Jesus as an act of love. He was cleansed and sent to the priest. So once the priest discovered that a leper was cleansed ( behind the scenes because this wasn't mentioned in the gospels but commanded by God in the law of the leper in Leviticus 13-14 ) he asked who cleansed you?

When the priest hears Jesus the Messiah the Jews send a delegation as mentioned later on when Jesus was teaching in a house. As another Messianic sign, they bring a paralytic while he was teaching. What was the first answer of Jesus? Your sins are forgiven. The rabbis and inspectors in the audience were quiet ( because their first reactions has to be that they only watch to see if he's the Messiah or not. Questions should come in the future ).

But seeing that he fulfilled a Messianic act, to forgive sins, they were reasoning in their hearts, "Only God could forgive sins". Here's another Messianic sign, that Jesus can read people's hearts.

But the last sign of the day did convince them, when he commanded the paralytic to stand up, take his bed and go home. At that point they praised God.

But later on there were opportunities where Scribes and Pharisees would follow Jesus and his disciples and question what they said or did such walking through the field ( Matthew 15 ) and eating with dirty hands which in their oral tradition ( which was later penned down as the Mishnah, which turns out to be one of the books of the Talmud ). Their question was why did Jesus not obey the elders' tradition? Jesus replied that by obeying their tradition they break God's commandments ( as Peter said in Acts 4, "We ought to obey God rather than men").

So from that point they rejected his Messiahship as mentioned in Matthew 12, that he cast out devils by Beelzebub. And from that point Jesus stop ministering publicly and commanded those whom he healed not to tell others about it until he had risen from the dead.

pjmiller
10-31-2007, 01:39 PM
Richard, I wanted to say I am OVERJOYED! that so many websites & boards are picking up on your review of this book...Praise God!


The word is getting out. As you pointed out there are still those who are defending him, not believing he meant what he said. A few of those folks have been questioning the book promo video--claming it was 'fixed' or tampered with, because the words being said (by Hagee) did not seem to match up with his mouth/movements.

Today, i found where another person on youtube posted this promo again...and there can be no doubt of what he said. I wanted to pass the link on to the video, for anyone who doubted the first one.


Hagee Hersey (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0CyolAOeWQ)

ps- hope my link was posted correctly. I'm not use to the tools here yet! :)

Richard Amiel McGough
10-31-2007, 01:57 PM
Richard, I wanted to say I am OVERJOYED! that so many websites & boards are picking up on your review of this book...Praise God!


The word is getting out. As you pointed out there are still those who are defending him, not believing he meant what he said. A few of those folks have been questioning the book promo video--claming it was 'fixed' or tampered with, because the words being said (by Hagee) did not seem to match up with his mouth/movements.

Today, i found where another person on youtube posted this promo again...and there can be no doubt of what he said. I wanted to pass the link on to the video, for anyone who doubted the first one.


Hagee Hersey (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0CyolAOeWQ)

ps- hope my link was posted correctly. I'm not use to the tools here yet! :)
Hey there pj!

I am glad too .... though I can't really use the word "joy" in this battle. But I know what you meant! I feel the same way.

It is pretty silly for folks to be questioning the video because the book is out there with all the quotes. They should be posted whenever possible.

The link worked fine. Thanks!

Richard

Edit to add: Google found another blog that links to your post and to my review while I was writing this:

http://averyheavystone.blogspot.com/

White
11-02-2007, 11:56 AM
Hey Richard,

That's the quote for the day after All Saints Day - found on your link above:


"Come now, and let us reason together," Says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If you are willing and obedient, You shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword"; For the mouth of the Lord has spoken."
America wake up - Bush wake up - Pray for Peace to Jerusalem and the HOLY LAND with JESUS / Y'SHUA in the heart of Jews, Christians & Muslims... (No Ramadan in the White House; we are a Judeo/Christian Nation and not the Islamic States of America (link to www.Olivetreeviews.org March/April 2005 Newsletter on THE ISLAMIC STATES OF AMERICA - it is a wake-up call for Christians and Jews: "Sharia (Islamic) Law has come to America. We need to pray, pray, pray...

And the words spoken in every RCC tomorrow morning around the world and at OLL Mound - I'm the lector tomorrow morning 9 am - from
Romans 11:11-28 : 11:11 / 11/11 Hmmm... quite fitting!

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them (the Jews) jealous.

12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure (to accept Y'SHUA / JESUS as Messiah) is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen (Jews) and save some of them.
15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance (of Y'SHUA / JESUS as Messiah) be but life from the dead?

16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive (Gentiles), were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

18do not be arrogant toward the branches (Jews); but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root (the Jew Y'SHUA / JESUS who will come back as a JEW and not as Islam's Second in Command) supports you.

19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;

21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27"THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,

31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.

32For (AI)God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

May the LORD have MERCY on all of us because HE has shut up ALL OF US in disobedience so that HE might show MERCY TO ALL! And all meaning all!
Nobody has a corner on the cornerstone - none follow HIS WAY 100% - therefore, ALL need to repent and seek HIS WAY, HIS FACE, HIS MERCY every second of every day... May we pray the prayer our LORD & SAVIOR taught us, every hour on the hour : Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name, Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on Earth as in Heaven, give us this day our daily bread, forgive us out trespasses as we forgive those who have trespassed against us, lead us not into temptation BUT DELIVER US FROM EVIL. Amen.

Shalom to Jerusalem and the Holy Land
SHalom among all people, with Y'SHUA / JESUS in the heart of all
Shabbat Shalom
Monique

Victor
11-06-2007, 03:58 AM
Another blog picked up the review:

absolutedominion.blogspot.com (http://absolutedominion.blogspot.com/2007/11/in-defense-of-israel.html)



Personally I think John Hagee's new book should have been titled "In Defense of Heresy" since in it he engages in copious, gratuitous, and nefarious scriptural obfuscation and prooftexting which results in an outright denial of the Person of Christ.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-06-2007, 10:32 PM
Another blog picked up the review:

absolutedominion.blogspot.com (http://absolutedominion.blogspot.com/2007/11/in-defense-of-israel.html)
Thanks Victor. Here's another forum where they started a thread by quoting the whole review: The Way to Zion (http://thewaytozion.proboards39.com/index.cgi?board=iitc&action=display&thread=1193677224&page=1)

Here's a quote from that thread:



This is one of the worst twists I have seen and is pure heresy. Satan is indeed strong using him to reach tens of millions with this message.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.


And this guy (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=227219171&blogID=322396645&Mytoken=C13202D0-61E6-4FF7-9A38923128857FB074605216) on MySpace.com quoted the whole article.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-07-2007, 11:13 PM
A few more blogs and forums have picked up on the review. The most interesting is on the forum called Israel My Beloved (http://www.israelmybeloved.com/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=1004&p=2) from the website of the International Christian Zionist Center. Even here I have not seen anyone make any serious attempt to defend Hagee's claims. Indeed, I have not found anyone anywhere on the internet - least of all Hagee - who has made any attempt to justify his denial that Jesus came to be Messiah.

Others include:

More Books and Things (http://morebooksandthings.blogspot.com/2007/11/checking-things-out-about-hagee-and-his.html)

DFWstangs Forums (http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=340808)

Apostate Evangelists and Teachers (http://evangelists.blogspot.com/2007/11/jesus-is-not-messiah.html)

And here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0K1GEs2gAI) is a very interesting discussion on the YouTube posting of his famous video advertisement of his book which people really like because they can "hear it from the horse's mouth." It is quite telling that some folks attempted to argue that the video was a forgery.

Let us pray for peace in the Body of Christ as we unite around the pure proclamation of His Gospel! And let us pray for a true repentence in John Hagee, that he would see the errors of his ways and proclaim the truth of Jesus the Christ, that is, Jesus the Messiah!

Richard

Denny
11-10-2007, 09:51 AM
Richard,

I found your review to be right on. I have believed Hagee's ministry to be heretical for years now. There is no greater evil than in denying Jesus as the Christ, and Hagee's eschatology and ministry can easily be rejected by affirming the doctrine of Justification by Faith Alone.

BTW, IMO, nearly all TBN ministries may be rejected by the same means.



TBN

The largest Christian television network in the world"—unfortunately. The spirit of Tetzel is alive and well on cable TV. Bad doctrine, spurious claims of divine revelation, mawkish emotions, gaudy makeup, and tawdry decorations all contribute to the unique ambience that is TBN. To borrow some biblical language, TBN is "the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird" (cf. Rev. 18:2).{from the website of Phil Johnson}:mad:

And you think I am subject to fits of ad hominems.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Richard Amiel McGough
11-10-2007, 01:10 PM
Richard,

I found your review to be right on. I have believed Hagee's ministry to be heretical for years now. There is no greater evil than in denying Jesus as the Christ, and Hagee's eschatology and ministry can easily be rejected by affirming the doctrine of Justification by Faith Alone.
Amen! :thumb: Hagee's eschatology is about the worst anti-biblical mess that I have ever encountered. And his dual covenant heresy is instantly destroyed by the Biblical doctrine of Justification by Faith Alone. How any man claiming to teach the Bible could assert that the Jews still have a valid covenant with God through the Torah is impossible to comprehend. Its like he's never understood a single word of the New Covenant.

I knew there were many areas we agree. Indeed, we probably agree a lot more than not.



BTW, IMO, nearly all TBN ministries may be rejected by the same means.

TBN

The largest Christian television network in the world"—unfortunately. The spirit of Tetzel is alive and well on cable TV. Bad doctrine, spurious claims of divine revelation, mawkish emotions, gaudy makeup, and tawdry decorations all contribute to the unique ambience that is TBN. To borrow some biblical language, TBN is "the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird" (cf. Rev. 18:2).{from the website of Phil Johnson}
:mad:

And you think I am subject to fits of ad hominems.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24
Ha! You didn't even get close to Benny Hinn and his "holy ghost machine gun" that he wished for on live TV to murder everyone who disputed his endless flood of false docrine. Here's the quote (http://www.letusreason.org/Pent37.htm):


"Somebody's attacking me because of something I'm teaching. Let me tell you something, brother: You watch it! ...You know, I've looked for one verse in the Bible; I just can't seem to find it. Once verse that said, 'If you don't like them, kill them.' I really wish I could find it! ... Sometimes I wish God will give me a Holy Ghost machine gun; I'll blow your head off" (Praise-a-Thon, TBN, 8th November 1990)

I am in complete agreement with you about TBN. It is a mystery why God allows such a monstrosity to be linked with His Holy Name. But then, I see huge cults like Mormonism calling themselves "The Church of Jesus Christ" so I understand it is a fufillment of Christ's prophetic warning that many false prophets would come in His name.

Richard

okmedia
11-12-2007, 04:53 PM
Hello,
This is another case of twisting what Hagee said. I am not a fan of Hagee, I have never bought one of his books, but I have heard him on TV, and I know that he believes that Jesus is the Messiah; Hagee did NOT say that Jesus was not the Messiah, that is lunacy! :confused2:

He said he never came to BE the Messiah of the Jews. Jesus said he spoke in parables so that they would hear and not understand, otherwise they would turn and believe and be saved. Clearly, he did not want them to accept him as the Messiah, that is something I have known and heard others say for decades.

So STOP TWISTING WHAT HAGEE SAID. HE NEVER SAID that Jesus was not the Messiah.:yo:

Richard Amiel McGough
11-12-2007, 05:51 PM
Hello,
This is another case of twisting what Hagee said. I am not a fan of Hagee, I have never bought one of his books, but I have heard him on TV, and I know that he believes that Jesus is the Messiah; Hagee did NOT say that Jesus was not the Messiah, that is lunacy! :confused2:

He said he never came to BE the Messiah of the Jews. Jesus said he spoke in parables so that they would hear and not understand, otherwise they would turn and believe and be saved. Clearly, he did not want them to accept him as the Messiah, that is something I have known and heard others say for decades.

So STOP TWISTING WHAT HAGEE SAID. HE NEVER SAID that Jesus was not the Messiah.:yo:
Hello okmedia,

Welcome to our forum!

:welcome:

I am really glad that you have come to share your views.

I did not twist any words that Hagee wrote. It was John Hagee who twisted his own words into an incoherent unbiblical antichrist babble. The New Testament teaches absolutely NOTHING about a "Messiah to the Jews" other than JESUS the MESSIAH.



Now you say that "Clearly, he did not want them to accept him as the Messiah, that is something I have known and heard others say for decades." If that is true, then why did John write his gospel? I quote:
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the MESSIAH, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The PURPOSE of John's Gospel was to declare that Jesus was MESSIAH to both the Jews and the Gentiles. And John was not alone in his proclamation. On Pentecost Peter declared to his fellow JEWS that Jesus is THEIR MESSIAH! As it is written:
Acts 2:36-38 36 Therefore let ALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL [= JEWS] know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and MESSIAH. 37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. I could go on and on and on. John Hagee has sold you a pack of LIES. The Bible declares that Jesus really did come to be Messiah to the Jews. John Hagee denies both Christ and the Bible.

Again, thanks for sharing your views. I encourage you to work with me on this in the Peace of Christ. If I have erred, show me where and I will repent. I hope you will hold yourself to the same standard of truth in Christ. Your struggle will help others who have been deceived by Hagee's perverse doctrine.

Richard

Edit to add: I get the impression you have not actually ready my refutation of Hagee's errors. I addressed the specific argument that Hagee was "really" only denying that "Jesus was Messiah to the Jews" in Post 22 (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2930&postcount=22) of this thread.

okmedia
11-13-2007, 12:19 PM
So you are saying that Jesus was wrong when he said he spoke in parables so that they would not believe in him?:rolleyes:

John wrote his gospel AFTER Jesus was crucified and resurrected. That was part of the plan, it was necessary for the work of the cross to be completed, and if Jesus had been accepted as Messiah BEFORE that, then he would have become spiritual ruler of Israel. No cross, no resurrection. GET THE POINT?:yo:

Richard Amiel McGough
11-13-2007, 03:19 PM
Hey there okmedia!

Thanks for pursuing this with me! I really appreciate it. It is truly helpful to us all. :thumb:


So you are saying that Jesus was wrong when he said he spoke in parables so that they would not believe in him?:rolleyes:

Who are the "they" in your sentence? You falsely suggest they are the faithful Jews who otherwise would have delighted in the truth of Jesus as Messiah if only He had not blinded them from seeing it. This is typical of Hagee's false teaching. Christ was not speaking in parables to keep faithful Jews from believing in Him as Messiah. On the contrary, Christ quoted Isaiah against them as a condemnation of their unbelief, just like He called the Jews who rejected Him as Messiah "sons of the devil":
John 8:41-47 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

According to Christ and the Bible, the Jews who rejected Him did so because they rejected the Truth. The final refutation of Hagee's insane assertion that Christ never claimed to be Messiah is found in John 10:
John 10:24-31 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the >>>MESSIAH<<<, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, >>>I TOLD YOU<<<, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 &#182; Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Let me repeat this in a way that even the deaf and blind should be able to hear and see:

The Jews said "IF THOU BE THE >>>MESSIAH<<< TELL US PLAINLY."

Jesus answered and said ">>> I TOLD YOU<<< and ye believed not!


What will it TAKE to get Hagee's followers to read the Bible? Christ EXPLICITLY claimed to be the Messiah! And contra Hagee's LIES, He practically SHOUTED it to the JEWS!!! And He claimed that His "works" proved it. And what "works" was He speaking about? He was talking about his MIRACULOUS SIGNS such as turning water to wine, healing the blind, and raising the dead. John Hagee denied EVERYTHING about the miraculous signs that Christ did as proof that He was indeed the Messiah when he wrote:
Jesus refused to produce a sign for the national leadership of Israel in an attempt to prove that he was the Messiah because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be the Messiah. Do you see that? Hagee says Jesus did not come to BE the Messiah. Of course, I know what you will think. You will think that "Messiah" here means a "political ruler", right? Where do you find that in the BIBLE? Anywhere? No! The New Testament says NOTHING about "political Messiah to the Jews" as opposed to the true Messiah which is Jesus. Hagee's entire teaching is based on an utterly, totally, ridiculously false and unbiblical concept of the Messiah.


John wrote his gospel AFTER Jesus was crucified and resurrected. That was part of the plan, it was necessary for the work of the cross to be completed, and if Jesus had been accepted as Messiah BEFORE that, then he would have become spiritual ruler of Israel. No cross, no resurrection. GET THE POINT?:yo:

Sure, I "GET THE POINT." But "THE POINT" is false and unwarranted. You have uncritically received the popular false teaching that says the Jews as a nation had to reject Christ as Messiah in order for the cross and resurrection to happen. That idea has no basis in fact because you do not know that Jesus would not have been crucified by the Romans regardless of how many Jews accepted Him as Messiah. The whole nation could have accepted Him except a few "religoius rogues" in leadership who still could have succeeded in getting Him crucified just as God prophesied. Indeed, this is the scenario that Hagee asserts in his book on page 131:
The bibilcal text is perfectly clear. Jesus was crucified by Rome as a political insurrectionist who was considered too dangerous to live. He was a threat to Herod's grip on Palestine and a threat to the high priest. The plot among Herod's inner circle produce the Roman crucifixion of Jesus Christ at Calvary. It had nothing to do with the Jewish people as a civilization. He calls the crucifixion the "Calvary Plot" and attributes it entirely to "a miniscule handful" of "religious rogues" that were "led by the high priest" (p. 129). So there it is. According to Hagee, "the Jews" did not have to "reject" Christ in order for the Gospel plan to be fulfilled. This means that your attempt to justify Hagee's teachings directly contradicts Hagee's teachings, which is exactly what we all should expect since Hagee's teachings as a whole are logically incoherent. GET THE POINT?

We also must recall that thousands of "the Jews" did accept Jesus as the Messiah BEFORE he was crucified.

Thanks again for presenting these attempts to justify Hagee's errors. They are very useful as a means of demonstrating the true Biblical doctrines (because of their stark contrast).

Richard

okmedia
11-13-2007, 04:30 PM
Not having read the book, I cannot defend everything Hagee said. All I know is that the OT and Jesus said he had to be rejected, (which is why he spoke so harshly to the religious leaders):

Mat 21:42 Jesus saith to them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?

Mar 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Luk 17:25 But first he must suffer many things, and be rejected by this generation.


Sure Jesus admitted he was the Messiah, even the Son of God, but not during his entire time of preaching; probably close to the end, which is why they became angry and killed him, but he could have done it differently, so that he was accepted like you said, but like the Bible says, he had to be rejected so that he could be crucified.:thumb:

Richard Amiel McGough
11-13-2007, 04:55 PM
Not having read the book, I cannot defend everything Hagee said. All I know is that the OT and Jesus said he had to be rejected, (which is why he spoke so harshly to the religious leaders):

Mat 21:42 Jesus saith to them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?

Mar 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Luk 17:25 But first he must suffer many things, and be rejected by this generation.

Sure Jesus admitted he was the Messiah, even the Son of God, but not during his entire time of preaching; probably close to the end, which is why they became angry and killed him, but he could have done it differently, so that he was accepted like you said, but like the Bible says, he had to be rejected so that he could be crucified.:thumb:
No problem there! :tea: We all know that Christ was rejected by the Jews. And that the Bible prophesied that He would be rejected. And that only a remnant of the Jews would be saved. But it is wrong to say that God had to "make them" reject Jesus by some supernatural blindness. They rejected Him because of their sin, not because God made them do it.

And none of this justifies Hagee's denial that Christ came to be Messiah, correct?

So do you still assert that I have "twisted" Hagee's words?

Richard

okmedia
11-13-2007, 06:57 PM
Well, according to Paul, the Jews were given partial blindness until the full number of the Gentiles will come in.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-13-2007, 07:35 PM
Well, according to Paul, the Jews were given partial blindness until the full number of the Gentiles will come in.
Well, the meaning of that verse depends strongly upon the exegesis of whole section of Romans 9-11 which is a large and difficult task, and no matter what conclusions are derived, they will certainly be highly controversial. That verse therefore does not function well as a "proof text."

So do you still assert that I have "twisted" the words of John Hagee?

Richard

okmedia
11-13-2007, 10:35 PM
You stated:

His denial of Jesus as the Christ (Messiah) cannot be overlooked . . . Since Jesus did not come to do this, He was "not the Messiah" by Hagee's heretical definition.

Hagee was wrong in stating that the Jews did not reject Jesus, as the Bible clearly states they did, but it was God's will for that to happen, so they cannot be blamed.

But you are claiming that Hagee was saying that Jesus was not the Messiah, but in fact he was saying that Jesus did not come to BE their Messiah, to be accepted by them.

Do I have that right? Not having read the book, but I can read what you said, and I doubt very seriously that he said that Jesus was and is not the Messiah.

:pop2:

Richard Amiel McGough
11-13-2007, 11:47 PM
You stated:

His denial of Jesus as the Christ (Messiah) cannot be overlooked . . . Since Jesus did not come to do this, He was "not the Messiah" by Hagee's heretical definition.

Hagee was wrong in stating that the Jews did not reject Jesus, as the Bible clearly states they did, but it was God's will for that to happen, so they cannot be blamed.

But you are claiming that Hagee was saying that Jesus was not the Messiah, but in fact he was saying that Jesus did not come to BE their Messiah, to be accepted by them.

Do I have that right? Not having read the book, but I can read what you said, and I doubt very seriously that he said that Jesus was and is not the Messiah.

:pop2:
I'm a little confused by your question. Are you saying that Hagee is correct, and that "Jesus did not come to BE their Messiah?" If that's what you believe, then how do you explain Jesus SHOUTING to them that HE IS THEIR MESSIAH? Here, let me tell you again what the Holy Bible declares in John 10:

The Jews said "IF THOU BE THE >>>MESSIAH<<< TELL US PLAINLY."

Jesus answered and said ">>> I TOLD YOU<<< and ye believed not!

Do you understand those words? Do they say anything like "Jesus refused to be Messiah to the Jews?" Hagee's idea of the "messiah" has absolutely nothing to do with the Messiah proclaimed in the New Testament! N.O.T.H.I.N.G.

Now I understand why you are confused about Hagee's teachings. It really does seem to be lunacy to spend forty years preaching Jesus as the Jewish Messiah and then write a book that denies Jesus came to be Messiah of the Jews. But you must understand that the quotes I gave are accurate and were not taken out of context. You can check them out yourself. Don't buy the book, just go to a bookstore and scan through to confirm the quotes and check the context. Hagee wrote the following:

If God intended for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel, why didn't he authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God's Messiah, just as Moses had done? (p. 137)
Jesus refused to produce a sign ... because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be Messiah. (p 138)
If Jesus wanted to be Messiah, why did he repeatedly tell his disciples and followers to "tell no one" about his supernatural accomplishments? (p. 139)
The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews. (p. 140)
They wanted him to be their Messiah, but he flatly refused. (p. 141)
He refused to be their Messiah, choosing instead to be the Savior of the world (p. 143)
Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of Messiah in word or deed. (p. 145)
This is why you are confused. Hagee's teachings are totally incoherent. He equivocates over the word "Messiah". I explained this in Post 22. Did you read it? Here it is again:
Ryan's post displays the gross confusion Hagee has wrought in the body of Christ by his equivocation over the word "Messiah." In one sentence, Hagee means "THE MESSIAH" (meaning the true Biblical Messiah) and in another sentence he means nothing but a "political Messiah."

It appears that this confusion was by design, with an aim to deceive. In his effort to exonerate "the Jews" Hagee almost always used the word "Messiah" to mean "a political Messiah" except at one key point - the beginning of his argument! We need only quote his own words in context to expose the deceptive methods of this serpentine teacher of God's Holy Word:

=================================================
From In Defense of Israel, page 132 (formatted as in the original):
=================================================

The Jews Did not Reject Jesus as Messiah

Most evangelicals believe the Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah and therefore qualify for God's eternal judgment. Replacement theologians have said that "the covenant with Israel was broken because she would not accept Jesus Christ whom God sent." (6)

Is this statement about the Jewish people biblically true? No! In order to respond to this misstatement about the Jews, several questions must be answered:

=================================================
End quote
=================================================

In the first sentence, Hagee asserts that "Most evangelicals believe the Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah." This means that "Messiah" here must be taken in the "evangelical" sense, or the sentence would be false. The same sense is implied in the quote concerning "Jesus Christ whom God sent." I will refer to this "Messiah" as the Biblical Messiah.

Hagee then asserted that "this statement" is false. What statement? The statement that the Jews rejected Jesus as the Biblical Messiah! But what then does Hagee argue throughout the next dozen pages? He argued that the Jews did not reject Jesus as the Political Messiah! This is PURE MADNESS :woah: Hagee's argument is logically incoherent. Technically, he based his entire thesis on the logical fallacy known as an equivocation (http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/skepticism/blfaq_fall_equivocation.htm), meaning that he used the word "Messiah" with two different meanings in the same argument. He posed the question: "Did the Jews reject Jesus as the Biblical Messiah?" and then set about to prove that they did not reject Him as a Political Messiah. In layman's terms, Hagee pulled a "bait and switch" on his readers. The gravity of this sin is evident in the fact that he has deceived so many people. Ryan never had a clue that Hagee had pulled the wool over his eyes and robbed him of the Biblical truth of Jesus as the Biblical Messiah. And worse, any Jew reading his book can say "Right on! Jesus was no Messiah!" Hagee's teachings put souls in danger.



The essential point to understand is that NO CHRISTIAN would ever DENY that Jesus is Messiah under any circumstances because that is one of the statements that defines the Christian Faith. But if a teacher really felt the need to say "Jesus refused to be Messiah" he would compelled, if he had any semblence of a Christian conscience at all, to carefully define what he meant and why he was saying things that seem to be apostate. To fail to be clear on this matter could stumble untold thousands of simple souls! But Hagee did none of that. He wrote his book, and as far as I know, he still has not bothered to make any statements to anybody about what he "really" meant, and why his words should not be understood as a denial of Jesus as the Christ.

Finally, I would like to address a point concerning God's will and human responsibility. You say that the Jews "can not be blamed" because "it was God's will for that to happen." The fact that something is "God's will" does not exonerate the wicked people who commit the sin. This is stated explicitly in Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:" It was God's will that Christ be crucified, but the people who did it were guilty of murder and rightly declared to be "wicked" in the same verse that declares they fulfilled "determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God." I explained this is some detail in my previous post. The Jews that rejected Jesus did so because they rejected the Truth. Jesus quoted Isaiah as a judgment on them for their unbelief. He said the Jews who rejected Him did so because they were sons of the devil. How do you interpret these verses? Why didn't you respond to my answer?

Thanks again for your diligence ok media! It is very much appreciated.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
11-14-2007, 04:07 PM
I received this email yesterday from Rev. Barbara Di Gilio who runs Mayim Hayim Ministries (http://www.mayimhayim.org/) which "seeks to educate, and to bring first century light to both, the Jewish person and the non-Jewish person alike. We want to equip all with the richness of the Heritage of Messiah Yeshua (Jesus Christ), which is totally Hebraic."
===============================================
Hi Richard,

This is Rev. Barbara Di Gilio from Mayim Hayim Ministries writing you, it been a long time since we have spoken. You may remember, you wrote to me when you first put up your web site? Anyway, a few weeks ago I wrote this Book Review about pastor John Hagee's new book. I would like your permission to use your article on my web site as well, your article is just what I wrote about in my email?

A Mayim Hayim Book Review: IN DEFENSE OF ISRAEL by Pastor John Hagee


Dear Haverim,


I must tell you my friends; I have never been so upset with anyone who has written a book, one who claims he loves the Jewish people. From page 1 up pages 132, I have no problem with IN DEFENSE OF ISRAEL, however, from page 132 to the top of 145, I take great issue with pastor Hagee’ understanding of Hebraic things. His perspective is wacky and off balanced, and he sets Messianic Judaism at odds with the plain reading of the Scriptures. I will give you only one instant from his book, but there are many. In his chapter: 'Answering Christian Critics,' on page 142 & the top of 143, pastor Hagee says, and I have put it all in brackets for you here:


[Two Disciples on the Emmaus Road

The two disciples on the road to Emmaus (located seven miles outside Jerusalem) wanted Jesus to be the Messiah. Luke mentions one of them by name: Cleopas, the father of James the Less. The other disciple walking on the road with him may have been his wife, Mary. As they walked, Jesus himself joined them, but they did not recognize him.

He asked them, 'What are you discussing together as you walk along?'


... One of them, named Cleopas asked him, 'Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?


'What things?' he asked.


'About Jesus of Nazareth,' they replied. 'He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel.'

—Luke 24:17—21, NIV, emphasis added

The two disciples on the road to Emmaus had not rejected Jesus as Messiah; their hopes were dashed! It was not until Jesus entered their house for fellowship, as it was late in the evening, that they recognized him. When he sat at their table, lifting his hands to bless and break the bread, they saw the scars on his hands and recognized Jesus. He instantly disappeared (Luke 24:30—35). He refused to be their Messiah, choosing instead to bet he Savior of the world.]

Here pastor Hagee only give you part of the story told by Luke. He left out Jesus’ words that are in red in my bible. Let’s look at the whole story in context, and really see what Jesus said.
Luke 24:13-35
13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ (Messiah) to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.

Verse 26 in the New Living Translation (NLT) it reads this way:
'Wasn't it clearly predicted by the prophets that the Messiah would have to suffer all these things before entering his time of glory?"
In David Stern’ 'The Jewish New Testament,' (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/9653590154/o/qid=985212706/sr=2-1/mayimhayimm04-20) verse 26 reads:

'Didn’t the Messiah have to die like this before entering his glory?'
The red emphasis added is by me, David Stern does not have a red letter edition, nevertheless you can see Jesus though of Himself as the Messiah of Israel, the Messiah the prophets spoke of.

Clearly, pastor Hagee does not understand Jesus’ (Yeshua’) use of Hebraisms in speaking of Himself in the Scriptures, if he did, he could never have put forth this point of view in his book.


I love pastor John Hagee, but I cannot recommend this book. My fear is that people who are not 'taught' or well versed in the Scriptures will believe that Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah of Israel, which is dead wrong, for He did so over and over again to them.

I have neither the time nor the want-to, to write a paper with a "full rebuttal" on this chapter in the book, but maybe one of the rabbis or scholars who read MHM Book Reviews will do just that. If you do, I will post it. What I will however recommend is my brother Dwight A. Pryor’ DVD set: 'Behold The Man – Discovering our Hebrew Lord, the Historical Jesus of Nazareth.'

You can obtain that from www.jcstudies.com (http://www.jcstudies.com/). It comes with a book and 6 DVD’s with 12, 40 minutes sessions on it, and its worth it price in gold. This series will show you that not only did Jesus know He was the Messiah, but that He said so over and over again.

Pastor Hagee has gone too far with this book, and I believe he will do more harm them good to the Messianic Movement around the globe by its release. He has hurt the Jews, and not helped them. Heaven help him.

Shalom,
Rev. Barbara A. Di Gilio Th.D
Mayim Hayim Ministries
================================================== ====

After receiving the message above, I wrote to Barbara and asked if I could post it in this forum. Here is her response:
================================================== ====
Good Morning Richard,

Thanks, and by all means use what I wrote in your forum. I was sick over it. I was a member of CUFI, and gave money this pass year, but I will never give them a dime again. I have other ways to fund Israel. I'm with you, I fully support Israel in every way, but your right Hagee is dead wrong about who Yeshua is. Hagee's faith-point here is 100% apostasy. Read this, I put this up before I read the book. I will have to change the last part and now say I cannot support Hagee anymore.

*'WHAT’S LOVE GOT TO DO WITH IT?'*
<http://www.mayimhayim.org/Rabbi%20Mike/Rabbi%20Jack/What%20Love%20Got%20To%20Do%20With%20It.htm (http://www.mayimhayim.org/Rabbi Mike/Rabbi Jack/What Love Got To Do With It.htm)>

/By Messianic Rabbi Jack Zimmerman,
Congregation Beth Simchat HaMashiach, <http://www.azshabbat.org/ (http://www.azshabbat.org/)> //
Phoenix, Arizona
July 24th. 2007/

Blessings to you for telling the truth, I had no time to write the article myself, and you did a great job on it that's why I want to use it. :-)

God Bless you,

Barbara <><
================================================== ====

okmedia
11-16-2007, 06:42 PM
Finally, I would like to address a point concerning God's will and human responsibility. You say that the Jews "can not be blamed" because "it was God's will for that to happen." The fact that something is "God's will" does not exonerate the wicked people who commit the sin. This is stated explicitly in Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:" It was God's will that Christ be crucified, but the people who did it were guilty of murder and rightly declared to be "wicked" in the same verse that declares they fulfilled "determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God." I explained this is some detail in my previous post. The Jews that rejected Jesus did so because they rejected the Truth. Jesus quoted Isaiah as a judgment on them for their unbelief. He said the Jews who rejected Him did so because they were sons of the devil. How do you interpret these verses? Why didn't you respond to my answer?

Only a handful of the Jews actually took part in rejecting Jesus, but many more in the city doubtless also rejected him because many of them, not just the leadership, persecuted the first Christians, and later persecuted Paul. Later judgment came upon the whole nation, as Jesus predicted. They paid for their sin, but the Jews of today are not guilty of rejecting Jesus, so they cannot to be blamed.:thumb:

Only the first century Jews rejected Jesus. Don't say, they rejected him every day by not converting, everyone on the planet that hears the gospel and rejects it would be doing the same. That is different from this subject.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-16-2007, 07:32 PM
Only a handful of the Jews actually took part in rejecting Jesus, but many more in the city doubtless also rejected him because many of them, not just the leadership, persecuted the first Christians, and later persecuted Paul. Later judgment came upon the whole nation, as Jesus predicted. They paid for their sin, but the Jews of today are not guilty of rejecting Jesus, so they cannot to be blamed.:thumb:

Only the first century Jews rejected Jesus. Don't say, they rejected him every day by not converting, everyone on the planet that hears the gospel and rejects it would be doing the same. That is different from this subject.
Hey there okmedia,

I agree completely. Jews are no different than Gentiles when it comes to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But that does not fix the errors in Hagee's book. Hagee's point was that the first century Jews could not be blamed for rejecting Jesus because Jesus Himself refused to be their Messiah. This is why his book is heretical. It directly contradicts the fundamental Gospel message of the New Testament which declares with perfect clarity that Jesus Christ came to be Messiah for the Jews first, and also for the Gentiles. Is that clear to you now, or do you believe that Hagee is correct?

Richard

gilgal
11-16-2007, 09:18 PM
Only a handful of the Jews actually took part in rejecting Jesus, but many more in the city doubtless also rejected him because many of them, not just the leadership, persecuted the first Christians, and later persecuted Paul. Later judgment came upon the whole nation, as Jesus predicted. They paid for their sin, but the Jews of today are not guilty of rejecting Jesus, so they cannot to be blamed.:thumb:

They do reject Jesus except for a remnant. It's also true during the end times in Revelation 11 and 14.



Only the first century Jews rejected Jesus. Don't say, they rejected him every day by not converting, everyone on the planet that hears the gospel and rejects it would be doing the same. That is different from this subject.

Well everyone sins. But Jesus is the atonement for our sins. When we sin, not that God wants us to, but we know to turn back to God through Jesus Christ.
Man cannot be saved through good works because how can we being errant know what is good? Do you know your bible inside out? Do you understand it perfectly? Most probably not. How can you know what good is? Since we couldn't please God we rely on him who has given the sacrifice for our sins: Jesus Christ!

sula
11-17-2007, 08:43 PM
I am very new to this forum...like tonight....for the sole purpose of reading all these very surprising posts about Hagee and his latest book. I've read 2 of his books and am convinced that he should stay in the pulpit. His preaching/teaching is much better. Living outside of the US, I listen to his worship service every Sunday live. In all my times of hearing him preach, I've never heard him say anything against Jesus being the Messiah. He preaches "one way to heaven", consistently....I've heard this w/my own ears. He is one of the few preachers of today that calls sin what it is....SIN. He preaches that homosexuality, abortion, other hot-topic issues of today...are sin and that w/out repentance, one can plan on going to hell. While I do not agree w/his pre-trib position, I do go along w/him on Lordship salvation and that we can lose our salvation. I do support Israel as I know he does also. Once again, I say that I've never heard him say any of the things he is accused of on this forum. I am dumbfounded.

I am not saying that any of you are wrong but I will most certainly endeavor to research this further. If this is all true, then he most certainly has done a 360 turn from what I heard last Sunday and every other Sunday from his lips.

I could get into some deep topics here about the Jews......it was the teachers of the children of Israel that were afraid of Jesus and did everything they could to discredit HIM. But Jesus did not go to the Cross because the Jewish leaders of the day sent HIM there, He went there because HE chose to go there for the like of all of us...sinners. He went voluntarily. If He did not want to go there, than HE would not. He also did not perform "signs and wonders" for the religious leaders because HE knew their hearts were hardened and their eyes were veiled by God until the "fulness of the Gentiles". The proof was already there but the truth as so often is the case, was rejected. So, in some respects, Jesus, our Messiah did not come for these blinded people...HE came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. God knows who HIS people are...those are the ones HE came for...those are the ones that HE serves as Messiah for....HIS chosen remnant.

I would certainly be open to more facts. I know we are to be faced w/false teachers in the last days and we certainly are there now, in my opinion. The false teachers are becoming more and more clever. I will certainly be praying for John Hagee. It could be that his love for the Jewish people has colored his reasoning and his ability to stay focused....I simply do not know but intend to find out.

I must confess, I've read alot but have yet to run across this "dual covenant" theory. I've read alot about the "two houses" or "two sticks" that become one as stated in Romans but no dual covenant

Richard Amiel McGough
11-17-2007, 09:47 PM
I am very new to this forum...like tonight....for the sole purpose of reading all these very surprising posts about Hagee and his latest book. I've read 2 of his books and am convinced that he should stay in the pulpit. His preaching/teaching is much better. Living outside of the US, I listen to his worship service every Sunday live. In all my times of hearing him preach, I've never heard him say anything against Jesus being the Messiah. He preaches "one way to heaven", consistently....I've heard this w/my own ears. He is one of the few preachers of today that calls sin what it is....SIN. He preaches that homosexuality, abortion, other hot-topic issues of today...are sin and that w/out repentance, one can plan on going to hell. While I do not agree w/his pre-trib position, I do go along w/him on Lordship salvation and that we can lose our salvation. I do support Israel as I know he does also. Once again, I say that I've never heard him say any of the things he is accused of on this forum. I am dumbfounded.
Greetings sula,

Welcome to our forum!

:welcome:

As far as I know, you are correct about John Hagee's usual Sunday preaching. I have heard him loudly proclaim orthodox teachings about Jesus as Savior and Lord. But in his book he clearly stated his heretical belief that Jesus did not come to earth to be the Messiah. Here are some examples:

If God intended for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel, why didn't he authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God's Messiah, just as Moses had done? (p. 137)
Jesus refused to produce a sign ... because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be Messiah. (p 138)
If Jesus wanted to be Messiah, why did he repeatedly tell his disciples and followers to "tell no one" about his supernatural accomplishments? (p. 139)
The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews. (p. 140)
They wanted him to be their Messiah, but he flatly refused. (p. 141)
He refused to be their Messiah, choosing instead to be the Savior of the world (p. 143)
Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of Messiah in word or deed. (p. 145)Now the reason this is so confusing is because Hagee switched his definition of "Messiah" from the true and correct Biblical meaning that denotes God's Son our Saviour Jesus Christ to something entirely foreign to the Bible, namely, a conquering Jew who would smash Rome and set up an earthly ethnic kingdom centered in Jerusalem. Hagee's idea of the "Messiah" has absolutely nothing to do with the real Messiah that was fulfilled in Jesus. His whole book is therefore an antichristian abomination. Can you imagine saying "Jesus the Messiah did not come to be the Messiah"? What kind of madness is that? John Hagee is preaching to millions of people! He has a great responsibility to speak the truth with clarity. He has utterly failed in that regard.


I am not saying that any of you are wrong but I will most certainly endeavor to research this further. If this is all true, then he most certainly has done a 360 turn from what I heard last Sunday and every other Sunday from his lips.
Its called duplicity. He speaks out of both sides of his mouth. Have you seen the YouTube clip where he says "Jesus did not come to earth to be Messiah?"


I could get into some deep topics here about the Jews......it was the teachers of the children of Israel that were afraid of Jesus and did everything they could to discredit HIM. But Jesus did not go to the Cross because the Jewish leaders of the day sent HIM there, He went there because HE chose to go there for the like of all of us...sinners. He went voluntarily. If He did not want to go there, than HE would not.
AMEN AMEN AMEN! That is exactly correct. Jesus laid down His life willingly. No man could take His life from Him.


He also did not perform "signs and wonders" for the religious leaders because HE knew their hearts were hardened and their eyes were veiled by God until the "fulness of the Gentiles". The proof was already there but the truth as so often is the case, was rejected. So, in some respects, Jesus, our Messiah did not come for these blinded people...HE came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. God knows who HIS people are...those are the ones HE came for...those are the ones that HE serves as Messiah for....HIS chosen remnant.

I agree that Christ came to save the remnant of Isreal, exactly as it is written in Scripture. But that has nothing to do with Hagee's errors. He asserted that "The Jews did not reject Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who rejected the Jewish desire for him to be their Messiah" (p. 145). Hagees asserion is a total lie. Jesus called all Jews to come to Him many many times in Scripture. Consider Matthew 11 when He went to "preach in their cities":
Matthew 11:1-30 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities. 2 ¶ Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, 3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another? 4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: 5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me. [speaking of the believing Jews] 7 ¶ And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes [he was preaching to ALL JEWS, yet many rejected Him] concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? 8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses. 9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. 10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 16 ¶ But whereunto shall I liken this generation [of the Jews]? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, 17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. 19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. 20 ¶ Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: 21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works [signs and wonders], which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works [signs and wonders], which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. 25 ¶ At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Everything Hagee wrote about Jesus refusing to be Messiah is a LIE.
Everything Hagee wrote about Jesus refusing to prove Himself with signs and wonders is a LIE.



Here another example when He called the Jews to believe in Him as Messiah:
John 7:37-38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

And again in the Gospel of John Christ exposed the sin in the Jews who refused to come to Him as their MESSIAH because they rejected Him:
John 5:36-40 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works [miraculous signs] which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Everything Hagee wrote about Jesus refusing to be Messiah are LIES.
Everything Hagee wrote about Jesus refusing to prove Himself with signs and wonders is a LIE.


I would certainly be open to more facts. I know we are to be faced w/false teachers in the last days and we certainly are there now, in my opinion. The false teachers are becoming more and more clever. I will certainly be praying for John Hagee. It could be that his love for the Jewish people has colored his reasoning and his ability to stay focused....I simply do not know but intend to find out.
You seem to have a good understanding of the dangers of false teachers. The fastest way to determine the truth would be to borrow a copy of his book, or just go to a bookstore and look at the quotes to check the context to confirm they are accurate. The truth should then be pretty obvious.

Please write if there is anything I can do to help.

I pray our Lord Jesus Christ guides you and blesses you as you study His most holy Word.

Richard

sula
11-18-2007, 07:33 AM
Richard, I read 2 of Hagee's books and he is not a good writer. I doubt that I will read the book unless I can borrow it but the likelyhood of that is slim since I live out of the US.

I do have to say, that based upon my studies which are mostly focused on Israel, the Jews, past, present and future........even tho I am not Jewish, I do the Torah studies and learned a tremendous amount of wonderful insight to God and HIS chosen ones. All Jews are not Israel and not all Israel is Jewish. This is a wonderful study.....so in saying this and w/o going into a huge dissertation, I can see the possiblity where Hagee's words could have been taken out of context. No, I have yet to view the I-tube but I will, for sure.

It is very true that all teachers/believers will be tested in the last days...Hagee is no exception....you, me all of us will be tested. I am tested far more than I enjoy and often find myself coming up short but God is so loving and merciful...and gentle in HIS teaching me...I welcome these periods of testing.

I will continue to seek the truth in this matter. I do not want to jump to conclusions and be called guilty as the Pharisees were in their erroneous judgements of our Christ.

Thanks, Richard.....

Richard Amiel McGough
11-18-2007, 04:00 PM
Richard, I read 2 of Hagee's books and he is not a good writer. I doubt that I will read the book unless I can borrow it but the likelyhood of that is slim since I live out of the US.
I wouldn't recommend buying a copy either. Besides, it doesn't sound like you need to worry much about this issue since you aren't caught up in his errors.



I do have to say, that based upon my studies which are mostly focused on Israel, the Jews, past, present and future........even tho I am not Jewish, I do the Torah studies and learned a tremendous amount of wonderful insight to God and HIS chosen ones. All Jews are not Israel and not all Israel is Jewish. This is a wonderful study.....so in saying this and w/o going into a huge dissertation, I can see the possiblity where Hagee's words could have been taken out of context. No, I have yet to view the I-tube but I will, for sure.
I too have learned a tremendous amount from the Jews for which I am extremely thankful. And I will never forget that they are the people form whom Christ came, and that God used them to produce His Holy Bible. They have wonderful traditions about the meanings of the Hebrew letters which played an essential role in my discovery of the Bible Wheel.



But I don't understand why you would call the Jews "HIS chosen ones." The New Testament declares all Christians to be "HIS chosen ones." That's what it means when the Bible says we are "GOD'S ELECT." This includes all Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ. The Jews who are faithful to their God YHVH believe in Him and know that He came to earth in the person of Yeshua the Messiah, so they too are His Chosen Ones. But the ones who reject Him can not be called "HIS chosen ones." Paul made this perfectly clear in Romans 9:6-8 when He said that only believers are counted as "seed of promise" and all unbelieving children of Abraham are children of the flesh and so "are not the children of God."
Romans 9:6-8 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Paul explained further in Galations 4:28 saying "we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise." And he explained the same thing again when he said that there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ:
Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. God gave His Promises to believers who follow in the footsteps of thier spiritual father Abraham. The children of the flesh profit nothing. God never gave any promises to them.


It is very true that all teachers/believers will be tested in the last days...Hagee is no exception....you, me all of us will be tested. I am tested far more than I enjoy and often find myself coming up short but God is so loving and merciful...and gentle in HIS teaching me...I welcome these periods of testing.
Amen! :thumb: I agree that testing is no "fun" when a cherished idea gets burned up, but its fruit is so very valuable I not only endure it, I welcome it. Indeed, I go out of my way to seek it! That's what this forum is for. It gives everyone a chance to challenge my beliefs, and I theirs. If we want to separate the gold from the dross, just toss it in the fire.


I will continue to seek the truth in this matter. I do not want to jump to conclusions and be called guilty as the Pharisees were in their erroneous judgements of our Christ.

Thanks, Richard.....
Please don't jump to any conclusions based on anything I have said! I would be very sad indeed if you based any conclusion solely on the word of another. Test all things for yourself. Check the facts and determine the truth. I have presented information. It is now up to you to test it to discern the truth.

God bless you as you pursue His Truth,

Richard

sula
11-18-2007, 04:25 PM
Richard, in my statement...."His chosen ones" are the ones HE chose to bring out of Egypt.....bondage of sin and lostness...and that includes us. I stated in one of my posts that not all Jews are Israel and not all Israel is Jewish. So, we ARE on the same page here, buddy....not to fret. I know I am of the chosen seed of Abraham....the "elect", "the remnant"...... Through out the OT, Hashem refers to "His chosen ones"......That is who I am referring to also. WE are one in the sight of the Lord....no different.

BTW.....I finally was able to hear the "youtube" exerts. I had to sign-up to hear them. Neeedless to say, I am horrified w/what I heard. I did hear Hagee in one of his sermons mention "the stars of the sky"....being the church and "the sands of the seas" being the Jewish indicating two Jerusalems......earthly and heavenly. That got my attention as I do not believe that but he's never mentioned anything like that again. But what I heard today is most disturbing and indicting for John Hagee. I must pray diligently for him. I do believe he has allowed his love and loyalty for Israel and the Jewish people to cause him blindness to the truth. He must come back to the TRUTH...the one TRUTH.

Apostasy is a very serious business and if this is not an indication that we are in the last days, I don't know what is. It is going to get much worse. We just lost Pat Roberson in his political endorsement and now, John Hagee......the Believers' loudest trumpet on earth.....even tho, I still do not agree w/him on other issues also....he still preached Jesus is Lord and there is only one way....we have so few men who are brave enough to stand up for the Lord as Hagee did. I am truly sadened.

I wonder...has there been any statements from the Hagee Ministry????

Richard Amiel McGough
11-18-2007, 06:23 PM
Richard, in my statement...."His chosen ones" are the ones HE chose to bring out of Egypt.....bondage of sin and lostness...and that includes us. I stated in one of my posts that not all Jews are Israel and not all Israel is Jewish. So, we ARE on the same page here, buddy....not to fret. I know I am of the chosen seed of Abraham....the "elect", "the remnant"...... Through out the OT, Hashem refers to "His chosen ones"......That is who I am referring to also. WE are one in the sight of the Lord....no different.
Hey sula,

That's great. :thumb: I didn't mean to come across "too heavy" on the point of God's chosen people. I didn't even know what you really believed, but was just taking your comment as an opportunity to express my point of view again because a lot of folks who follow Hagee's teachings have been erroneously taught that the Jews are still "God's people" separate from Christ. Thanks for letting me know where you stand on this. It is good to have our cards on the table, and see that we agree. :tea:


BTW.....I finally was able to hear the "youtube" exerts. I had to sign-up to hear them. Neeedless to say, I am horrified w/what I heard. I did hear Hagee in one of his sermons mention "the stars of the sky"....being the church and "the sands of the seas" being the Jewish indicating two Jerusalems......earthly and heavenly. That got my attention as I do not believe that but he's never mentioned anything like that again. But what I heard today is most disturbing and indicting for John Hagee. I must pray diligently for him. I do believe he has allowed his love and loyalty for Israel and the Jewish people to cause him blindness to the truth. He must come back to the TRUTH...the one TRUTH.
Amen! I stand with you in prayer for John Hagee, that he comes back to the ONE TRUTH of Jesus who came to BE the Messiah to the Jew first, and also to the Gentiles. :pray:


Apostasy is a very serious business and if this is not an indication that we are in the last days, I don't know what is. It is going to get much worse. We just lost Pat Roberson in his political endorsement and now, John Hagee......the Believers' loudest trumpet on earth.....even tho, I still do not agree w/him on other issues also....he still preached Jesus is Lord and there is only one way....we have so few men who are brave enough to stand up for the Lord as Hagee did. I am truly sadened.

Yes, it is very sad. But we must distinguish between the trumpet of the flesh and the trumpet of God. Hopping, jumping, shouting, screaming, hollering, huffing, and puffing look and sound a lot like the works of the flesh to me. The flesh likes things that flash and glitter. It is easily deceived into thinking someone is moved by God if he shouts loud enough, when in fact the true man of God may be a very weak public speaker, as were two of the greatest men of God in the Bible, Moses and Paul! Can you imagine either of them strutting around with a puffed up breast hollering their message at God's people? Is that the impression we get when we read the instructions of the Holy Word?
Ephesians 4:1-2 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
2 Timothy 2:24-25 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Now don't get me wrong, this is not the basis of any judgment on Hagee or any other loud preacher. I myself can be loud at times. I am speaking about this because I am getting the impression that a lot of folks who think Hagee is a great preacher have been hoodwinked by his style, and have not noticed that much of the content of his terribly stained by erroneous theology. It's not just the problem with his denial that Jesus came to be Messiah. For example, he also preaches that we will be blessed if we give material goods to the Jews because Jesus said "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." (Matt 25:40). Hagee comments on this verse on page 7 of "In Defense of Israel":
The expression "these brothers of mine" in this verse is a Greek term that refers to "relatives according to the flesh."
Jesus was speaking about the Jewish people when he said "I was hungry and you didn't give me food. I was thirst and you didn't give me water. I was naked and you didn't clothe me."
"When did we see you in that condition?" the disciples asked him.
Jesus replied that it was whenever they saw one of his "relatives" in that condition.
Whenever Christians have seen the relatives of Jesus suffering - for instance, in the Holocaust - and done nothing, it was as if they had ignored the suffering of Christ himself.
Jesus was not asking for emotion from his disciples; he wanted action. ... This is the gift that Christ is asking Christians to give to him today: "Do something for my relatives." The Jewish people are still his family.

Is Hagee correct? Does the Bible teach that God thinks of the ethnic Jews as "his relatives" who therefore deserve special treatment over and above all others? The answer is not far to find. Earlier in the same book from which Hagee quoted we find Jesus Himself identifying His family for us:
Matthew 12:46-50 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. The Bible teaches that all who obey God in faith are "his family." This is how it has always been since the beginning when God justified Abraham though faith in Geneis 15:6.

This exposes more of the false fleshly theology of John Hagee. He preaches as if he were utterly ignorant that God defines His people by faith. He picks and chooses what he wants from Scripture and ignores everything that contradicts his heretical doctrines. These errors appear on the seventh page of his book! How could his thousands and thousands of followers have missed this and all the other obvious errors? It seems none of them actually read the Bible, or if they do, they read it through the perverted lense of Hagee's distorted theology.


Well now ... sorry bout that rant! None of that was aimed at you sula. But I just happened to see Hagee teach that abominable doctrine of the Jews as "God's physical relatives" earlier today on TBN, and I thought it would be good to get it out while it was fresh on my mind.

As for Pat Robertson who you mentioned, I have been concerned with him for some years because he publically proclaims "words from the Lord" that come from his imagination mixed with yesterdays newspaper headlines rather than God's Spirit and Word. For example, after Katrina in 2005 he predicted (http://lastrow.wordpress.com/2007/01/03/another-year-another-pat-robertson-prophecy/) massive storms for 2006 that never happened. It is clear he has lost his discernment, mistaking his own imagination for the voice of the Lord.

God bless you sula, and please feel free to contribute to other threads and discussions on this forum. I can tell you are very thoughtful and have a lot to contribute.

God bless!

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
11-18-2007, 07:59 PM
The Expositor blog (http://theexpositor.wordpress.com/2007/11/16/john-hagee-responds-to-controversy/) posted this:



Pastor John Hagee has responded to my request for his reaction to the controversy involving his comments about Jesus as Messiah.

Again, I (Grace Media International and WQBC) have had a working relationship with John Hagee Ministries for the last four years. We contacted our representative with the ministry earlier this week and asked if Pastor Hagee would like to repsond to the issue. Yesterday, I received the following:


You can read his full response there. It's a tragedy. It's a theological trainwreck. It's pure apostasy, declared, defined, and defended. He persisted in his heresy full tilt. It's really little more than a repetition of the salient points from his book.


He begins by ignoring God's Word and going to Webster's dictionary to find a secular definition of "Messiah" that has absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether or not Jesus is the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament. He wrote:
Fact: According to Webster’s Dictionary the word “Messiah” means “the expected king who delivers from oppressors.” A Messiah is one who rules and reigns over a given people.

He then invents the most amazing antichrist antibiblical doctrine imaginable:
Most people confuse the role of “Messiah” and “Savior.” To be Messiah you must live. To rule and reign you must live. Jesus came to die and be the Savior of every person on earth. You cannot be both Messiah and Savior! :woah: :eek: :woah: :confused: :woah: :confused2: :woah:

John Hagee EXPLICITLY DECLARES that Jesus could not be both Messiah and Saviour! This man teaches the BIBLE? It is unbelievably absurd that he thought any serious student of God's Word would accept a heresy defended by half a definition from Webster's! I say "half" because the second definition of Messiah is stated as a single word, JESUS! Here is what Hagee deliberatly left out. It is from Webster's online dictionary (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/messiah) (emphasis added for the spiritually deceived):

Main Entry: mes&#183;si&#183;ah
Function: noun
Etymology: Hebrew māshīaḥ & Aramaic mĕshīḥā, literally, anointed
Date: 1560
1 capitalized
a: the expected king and deliverer of the Jews
b: JESUS
2: a professed or accepted leader of some hope or cause


And what does the Word of God say about Jesus? Does GOD ALMIGHTY declare that Jesus is both Saviour and Messiah?
KJV Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ [Messiah] the Lord.Well, maybe Hagee will try to assert that "Christ" doesn't really mean "Messiah." If that's the case, then maybe he should go back to his Fount of All Theological Wisdom and check Webster's definition of "Christ":



Main Entry: Christ
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English Crist, from Old English, from Latin Christus, from Greek Christos, literally, anointed, from chriein
Date:before 12th century
1: MESSIAH 2: JESUS

So there is is. John Hagee has declared, defined, and defended his apostate antichrist denial of Jesus Christ as Messiah.


Hagee's errors are so obvous, so terribly ridiculous and indefensible, I don't need to expose them all right now. If folks can't see them for themselves, they probably wouldn't understand an explanation. I will close for now with this final example of Hagee's absolute denial of the plain teaching of the Holy Bible. In his response, he stated:
Fact: Jesus claimed to be Savior several times in the Bible. He never claimed to be Messiah to the Jewish people. In John 4 Jesus told the woman at the well, a Gentile, who He was, knowing the Jews and Samaritans had nothing to do with each other. I go into this in great detail in my latest book, “In Defense of Israel.” Jesus never claimed to be Messiah to the Jewish people? Consider John 10:24-26


24 Then came THE JEWS round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the MESSIAH, TELL US PLAINLY. 25 Jesus answered them, I TOLD YOU, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. There are many many many other verses that prove John Hagee's teachings are entirely heretical, unbiblical, apostate, antichrist.

Pray for the Church of God, that all His people will stand firm in the true faith once delivered to the saints.


Richard
2 Corinthians 10:3-5 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

sula
11-18-2007, 08:03 PM
Thanks Richard,,I have been perusing the site and want to spend some time here. I've not found many forums where I feel really at home. I did post one to you earlier but I forgot to click on the instant notification..I'll have to try to go back and find my own post.

I agree w/you on the bretheren of Jesus including all of us....those of us that believe.....Hagee has really gone off track. I do adhere to the exclusivity of all believers being the same but I do not...ever did I see anything that would support dividing the Jews and Gentiles in God's eyes.....

I am so concerned as to what this is going to do to his church. That ministry has done so much to further the kingdom of God; done so much for mankind and Israel but if he has fallen into apostasy, God will not bless his ministry and I think of the tremendous loss there. I have never felt comfortable w/the teaching of "giving" to gain blessings. WE give because of our love for the Lord and HIS teachings and our desire to remain obedient...not to gain material riches.

I look forward to learning more from you and this forum and meeting like-minded people. I've found very few like-minded believers.....very few.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-19-2007, 01:32 PM
John Hagee's response over at the Expositor blog (http://theexpositor.wordpress.com/2007/11/16/john-hagee-responds-to-controversy/) requires one more comment. Hagee argued that Christ was not the Messiah as follows. I quote:
Most people confuse the role of 'Messiah' and 'Savior.' To be Messiah you must live. To rule and reign you must live. Jesus came to die and be the Savior of every person on earth.



Jesus Himself stated in Mark 14:8, Luke 24:46 and Mark 10:33-34 that He had come to die for the sins of the world as Savior. Again, you must live to be Messiah. You cannot be both Messiah and Savior!
See that? John Hagee said Jesus couldn't be Messiah because He died! And for him, that appears to the end of the story! He seems to think that Jesus REMAINED dead! He forgot the Capstone of Christianity, the Sign of Jonah that proved once and for all that Jesus was the Messiah to the Jews first, and also to the Gentiles.

John Hagee forgot about the Resurrection!

His book has a six page index that lists over a thousand topics from "Abbas" to "Zyklon B" but does not once mention the Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ!

Is there anything truly "Christian" about John Hagee's teachings? Anything at all?

Richard

PS: Here are a few more folks who are raising their Christian voices against his heresies:

A post called Very, Very, Very, Very Bad Theology (http://pastorrandy.blogspot.com/2007/11/very-very-very-very-bad-theology.html) on Randy Williams blog.

A post called John Hagee has Lost His Mind (http://fide-o.blogspot.com/2007/11/john-hagee-has-lost-his-freaking-mind.html) by Scott Hill on FIDE-O blog.

sula
11-19-2007, 04:10 PM
Richard....I am still reeling from this latest devastating revelation unveiling John Hagee and his alledged heresy. Is there anyone in the media....any well known person/clergy...in christian circles that is taking Hagee to task on this latest bombshell? I have not seen anything about this in the news and this is certainly news worthy considering the media coverage Hagee receives. I know the forums are buzzing wildly with this but what about the churches, etc.? John MacArthur should, James Dobson, Tim Hegg, my mind has gone blank......where are the big guys????? Probably hiding.......

I read one post that stated that most christians will swallow this....yes, there probably will be a number of them that will but we know that in the last days God is going to sift the wheat from the tares....this is one way to do that in a hurry............separates the goats from the sheep, too. I would love to be a fly on the wall in the halls of Cornerstone Church...I would imagine there is much abuzz there.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-19-2007, 04:32 PM
Richard....I am still reeling from this latest devastating revelation unveiling John Hagee and his alledged heresy. Is there anyone in the media....any well known person/clergy...in christian circles that is taking Hagee to task on this latest bombshell? I have not seen anything about this in the news and this is certainly news worthy considering the media coverage Hagee receives. I know the forums are buzzing wildly with this but what about the churches, etc.? John MacArthur should, James Dobson, Tim Hegg, my mind has gone blank......where are the big guys????? Probably hiding.......
The silence is deafening! There are anticult ministries like The Bible Answer Man that have criticised Hagee for years because of his dual covenant stuff and prosperity teaching and other problems. But they haven't said anything that I know of yet. Of course, they may be waiting for Hagee to make a formal statement. The first peep I heard from him came out just three days ago over on the Expositor blog. Neither his website, nor the Cornerstone Church's site, nor the site devoted to his book have any indictation that there has been any controversy at all.


I read one post that stated that most christians will swallow this....yes, there probably will be a number of them that will but we know that in the last days God is going to sift the wheat from the tares....this is one way to do that in a hurry............separates the goats from the sheep, too. I would love to be a fly on the wall in the halls of Cornerstone Church...I would imagine there is much abuzz there.
Yes, I'm afraid I must agree that most Christians will swallow it because if they had any fire in their spirits there's no way this could have happened in the first place. Hagee didn't just make up these ideas last year when he wrote his book. He's been preaching and teaching these errors for years to multiplied thousands of people in his church and over the Trinity Broadcasting Network, which means that ALL THE PEOPLE involved with the development and promotion of his book and tv shows an radio shows and preaching in his church (congregation of 19,000) are ALL DECEIVED to one degree or another! :woah:

I know times are difficult. But don't let yourself be deceived about this. Times have always been difficult. Indeed, I thank God I live now with more freedom than any Christian in the history of the world! I own many Bibles and Bible software and I can proclaim God's Word in a way that reaches every country of the globe. If you think that the times are so bad now that we are close to the "great apostasy" you might want to remember what it was like when you could have been imprisoned or killed for simply speaking freely about God's Word as we are now. (If you were blessed enough to find a copy of one page of the Bible!)

So yes, times look bad ... but are they really bad? You might want to re-evaluate your glass as half-full in this case. :thumb:

Richard

sula
11-19-2007, 04:55 PM
Oh Richard, I feel that my cup runneth over but there are so many people...believers who do not have it nearly as well as I do. I am so blessed....not in worldly riches but heavenly blessings.

I would have a very difficult time today telling the people of China that "things" are better......yes, there are more believers and that is wonderful....PTL, but that means that persecution is higher. I could not face the people in the Africas and tell them that life is grand and better than ever when they are having their arms and legs chopped off for refusing to praise allan. No, I do not believe that life is getting better; our freedoms are being taken away from us. God has been kicked out of schools, out of most public arenas, off the public displays in many buildings, schools are forbidding children to speak of "mom & dad", homosexuality is being thrust down our throats and politically correct speech is being shoved at us...enforced legally. I am not into the xmas thing but I do stand up for being able to say Christ-mas...no one is going to take that away from me. So, no, I do not believe "things are getting better". Israel is about to be blown off the face of the earth w/the exception of those that God spares......so...this is one area in which you and I are very far apart. I just don't see it Richard. And I have read some of what you believe....that everything is all past and that everything is going to get better and better....I just don't see it.....but...I am open to most discussions.

One thing, I will say in defense of John Hagee, I simply have not heard alot of the erroneous teachings that many have spoken of. The few things that I have disagreed w/him on were not biggies.......but this one is....so I am not holding in rocks in my hands....I will not be guilty of running the stoning brigade.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-19-2007, 08:45 PM
Oh Richard, I feel that my cup runneth over but there are so many people...believers who do not have it nearly as well as I do. I am so blessed....not in worldly riches but heavenly blessings.
I am glad you are blessed.


I would have a very difficult time today telling the people of China that "things" are better......yes, there are more believers and that is wonderful....PTL, but that means that persecution is higher. I could not face the people in the Africas and tell them that life is grand and better than ever when they are having their arms and legs chopped off for refusing to praise allan. No, I do not believe that life is getting better; our freedoms are being taken away from us. God has been kicked out of schools, out of most public arenas, off the public displays in many buildings, schools are forbidding children to speak of "mom & dad", homosexuality is being thrust down our throats and politically correct speech is being shoved at us...enforced legally. I am not into the xmas thing but I do stand up for being able to say Christ-mas...no one is going to take that away from me. So, no, I do not believe "things are getting better". Israel is about to be blown off the face of the earth w/the exception of those that God spares......so...this is one area in which you and I are very far apart. I just don't see it Richard. And I have read some of what you believe....that everything is all past and that everything is going to get better and better....I just don't see it.....but...I am open to most discussions.
Your points are well taken sula. I never meant to suggest that things are great for everyone all over the planet! I am well aware of the persecution Christians suffer in China, the Phillipines, and in the Muslem countries.

My point was triggered by your comments about the "last days" when you wrote that "we know that in the last days God is going to sift the wheat from the tares." I was only trying to give examples of why Hagee's errors do not seem like signs of the "last days."

As for things "getting better and better" ... I don't recall ever saying anything like that. The first century fulfillment of the prophecies about Christ, the New Covenant, the destruction of Jerusalem, etc., just seems to be what the Bible teaches. It all makes sense to me. But it doesn't mean that things are going to get better and better. That's what a lot of folks thought back at the beginning of the 20th century, but they were quickly disabused of that error after two world wars and endless atrocities by cruel and murderous dictators. I do not live in a fantasy world. I very much recognize the ongoing reality of EVIL on planet Earth. Christ explained that this is how it would be in the parable of the wheat and the tares - the two would continue growing up together till He comes back. And what did He say the tares represented? Sons of the Devil!


One thing, I will say in defense of John Hagee, I simply have not heard alot of the erroneous teachings that many have spoken of. The few things that I have disagreed w/him on were not biggies.......but this one is....so I am not holding in rocks in my hands....I will not be guilty of running the stoning brigade.
I hope you understand that I am not asking you to pick up stones! Some of us are just a lot more sensative to doctrinal errors than others. Many folks listening to Hagee overlook his errors and focus on the points they agree with because that's how most people get along with each other. No one wants to be too "nit picky" about doctinal stuff! That could lead immediately to charges of being a Pharisee, or worse, a Heresy Hunter! And when they hear something that really is heretical, they will ignore it by assuming "he couldn't really mean that" or "I must have misunderstood him, he's such a wonderful man of God" and then before they can form half a thought he shouts "Jesus is Lord, and He's coming back soon!" at the top of his lungs and obliterates that still small voice that would have led to a critical evaluation of his doctrine.

I pray our God bless you evermore with His perfect Peace,

Richard

sula
11-19-2007, 10:28 PM
Well, I still feel that we are on the same page for the most part. I would be interested in reading about your thoughts on your understanding of the last days. There are a number of issues I would enjoy discussing w/you.

I think I told you...maybe I didn't, that we are retired living in beautiful central Mexico; have no church or congregation to share with....we are learning directly from the Lord. I begged for a teacher and HE let me know that HE wanted to be our teacher as I was begging HIM for the truth. HE has given us many wonderful truths.......many far from what either of us grew up with. He has revealed the beauty of the OT to us...most mainstream churches never taught from the OT...what a treasure trove. The God of the OT is awesome.

So please share to your heart's content as the Lord leads you to share w/me. I am so hungry for fellowship even if ii is via the internet. And Praise God for the internet. I read everything I can get my hands on in the way of books and then rely on the net to research. I am a mere student but have found many wonderful sites to gain knowledge and blessings from. I have run across some pretty nasty vicious sites and people. So much hate and evil abound. But I am always looking for more. I can't even remember how I stumbled upon this one.

God bless.......

Richard Amiel McGough
11-20-2007, 08:55 AM
Well, I still feel that we are on the same page for the most part. I would be interested in reading about your thoughts on your understanding of the last days. There are a number of issues I would enjoy discussing w/you.
Hey there sula,


I have written a lot of posts in the Eschatology section of this forum concerning the "last days." My basic understanding is quite simple and derived directly from the Bible. It seems to me that every NT mention of "last days" or "last hour" or "last time" points pretty to the first century. For example, in Hebrews 1:2 we read that God "hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son" and John said:
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
And in the Olivet Discourse Christ specifically prophesied the destruction of the Temple which happened in the first century, exactly as He predicted when He said "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Matt 24:34). There are many other examples discussed in the Eschatology thread. If you want to pursue this topic, you could post a question there.


I think I told you...maybe I didn't, that we are retired living in beautiful central Mexico; have no church or congregation to share with....we are learning directly from the Lord. I begged for a teacher and HE let me know that HE wanted to be our teacher as I was begging HIM for the truth. HE has given us many wonderful truths.......many far from what either of us grew up with. He has revealed the beauty of the OT to us...most mainstream churches never taught from the OT...what a treasure trove. The God of the OT is awesome.

I am with you 100% on the value of the OT! I see all 66 books as ONE. The OT is absolutely essential for a full understanding of the Gospel. I'm glad we agree on this point.


So please share to your heart's content as the Lord leads you to share w/me. I am so hungry for fellowship even if ii is via the internet. And Praise God for the internet. I read everything I can get my hands on in the way of books and then rely on the net to research. I am a mere student but have found many wonderful sites to gain knowledge and blessings from. I have run across some pretty nasty vicious sites and people. So much hate and evil abound. But I am always looking for more. I can't even remember how I stumbled upon this one.

God bless.......
I'm glad you found your way to this forum sula. I hope you can learn as well as teach here. We are all "mere students" dependent upon the light God gives us. We all are learning, so you will find us changing our minds, admitting we erred, eating humble pie and all that many times. This is not a place of competition but of collaboration in searching out the truths of God's Word. I look forward to your contribution.

God bless!

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
11-20-2007, 01:01 PM
I received this email today:



----- Original Message -----
From: [name withheld]
To: Richard@biblewheel.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:38 AM
Subject: In Defense of Israel

Dear Richard,

I too was somewhat confused by Pastor Hagee's comments concerning Christ as the Messiah. I decided to dig deep into this issue for better understanding. I'm glad that I did because my study brought clarity and the peace of understanding much needed.

I believe I have found the reason for the confusion felt by many. We have used the name of Christ and Messiah throughout the Bible as one and the same and while Christ is the Messiah, He came the first time for a single purpose. The name "Messiah" is actually only used twice in the Bible according to Strong's Concordance. It is found in Daniel 9: 25 & 26 only. In these two verses it clearly refers to ' Messiah the Prince' not coming back until the Temple in Jerusalem is restored and the wall rebuilt in the end times. Daniel 10:14 makes it clear Daniel's vision is for the latter days.

I think a better way for Pastor Hagee to have explained what he meant was to clarify that Christ the Messiah, did not come here the first time in His capacity as Messiah, but rather came the first time as Savior to the world, the Lamb of God, sacrificed for the sins of the world. He is yet to return as Messiah The Prince.

This is a very serious subject and one that can divide Christians even more than they already are. I know all our questions can be answered in God's Word with clarity if we just study it and pray for guidance.

I look forward to the day when our Lord Jesus Christ comes back in the capacity of Messiah to rule and reign in the world! That is when peace and justice will prevail.

Sincerely,

[name withheld]

May you and your loved ones have a very Happy Thanksgiving!


And here is my response:



Dear [name withheld],

Thank you for taking time to write and to explain your understanding of John Hagee's teachings.

Unfortunately, your answer is terribly wrong. The word "Christ" literally means "Messiah." The two words mean exactly the same thing. When we say that Jesus is the Christ we are saying the Jesus is the Messiah. This is the fundamental definition of Christianity. That is why the Bible gives such a grave warning against all who would deny that Jesus is Messiah:

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

John Hagee denies that Jesus came to be the Messiah. The Bible explicitly condemns his teaching as antichrist.

I am sorry to have to speak so bluntly, but there is no "nice way" to expose heresy and apostasy.

I am open to further discussion if you feel it is necessary.

I pray you remain in the Peace and Truth of Jesus the Messiah,

Richard A. McGough
www.BibleWheel.com (http://www.biblewheel.com/)



The pathetically painful fact that Hagee's followers are ignorant of the elementary definition of "Christ" as "Messiah" should not be surprising because Hagee himself teaches that there is a difference. In his recent defense of his book posted over on the Expositor blog (http://theexpositor.wordpress.com/2007/11/16/john-hagee-responds-to-controversy/) he began by giving an entirely unbiblical definition of Messiah:


John Hagee: Many Christians have constructed a catch 22 concerning Jesus as Messiah. The catch 22 is this:

'Jesus came to be Messiah but because the Jews rejected Him as Messiah He had to go to the cross, hence the Jews are the Christ Killers.'

Fact: According to Webster’s Dictionary the word 'Messiah' means 'the expected king who delivers from oppressors.' A Messiah is one who rules and reigns over a given people. ...

Most people confuse the role of 'Messiah' and 'Savior.' To be Messiah you must live. To rule and reign you must live. Jesus came to die and be the Savior of every person on earth. ...

Jesus Himself stated in Mark 14:8, Luke 24:46 and Mark 10:33-34 that He had come to die for the sins of the world as Savior. Again, you must live to be Messiah. You cannot be both Messiah and Savior!


Hagee's argument is entirely nonsensical in the sense that it is truly moronic. How did Peter answer the Lord of the Universe when He asked "Who do you say that I am?" Peter answered:
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ [MESSIAH], the Son of the living God. (Matthew 16:16)

And how did the Lord of the Universe respond to Peter's great confession?
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 16:17)

But what does John Hagee think of the words of the Lord of the Universe? In his book he wrote:
Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of Messiah in word or deed. (p. 145)

And in his defense of his book he wrote:
Fact: Jesus claimed to be Savior several times in the Bible. He never claimed to be Messiah to the Jewish people. In John 4 Jesus told the woman at the well, a Gentile, who He was, knowing the Jews and Samaritans had nothing to do with each other. I go into this in great detail in my latest book, 'In Defense of Israel.'
What more need be said? Hagee has declared, defined, and defended his apostasy from the Christian faith.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
11-20-2007, 05:33 PM
I received a response to the email I answered in the last post:



----- Original Message -----
From: [name withheld]
To: Richard Amiel McGough
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: In Defense of Israel

Thank you for responding to my email. I must say I think Pastor Hagee could have done a better job of explaining what he meant.

He did not mean Christ is not the Messiah. He said Christ did not come the first time to be the Messiah. As my first email explained, there are only two times in the Bible where the title / name "Messiah" is written and means only the "Messiah." Therein lies the picture of the Messiah coming to the world to rule and reign. Pastor Hagee makes the distinction that Christ came the first time to be the Lamb of God, to be the Sacrificial Lamb for the sins of the world and that He will come again as the Messiah to the Jews and the world at His second coming.

I never thought about it until all this came up. To me Christ is / was the Messiah and of course He is. However He had and has two roles to play. He fulfilled His first role when He first came to us. His second role as Messiah is yet to happen.

In researching the title / name Messiah I realized for the first time that Christ has two roles, one our Savior and the other as Messiah. It may be a technical point but surely it is important to our Father. Christ is the Messiah but will not fill that role until He returns again. This is very clear to me now. And now it makes sense to me why Christ did not try to rule the world or be King of the Jews when He first came.

Again I say, Pastor Hagee didn't explain it very well. Thus he has prompted people such as yourself to call him anitchrist. I'm sure Pastor Hagee would rather shoot himself than offend our Lord. That's the way I see it.

The real antichrist in particular is Islam, in my opinion. They do not recognize Christ as the Son of God and the Savior to the world. Sadly in America, will may have to learn that truth to it's fullest extent.

Have a wonderful and Happy Thanksgiving,

[name withheld]


And here is my response:


Hi again [name withheld],

I'm glad you followed up, since this issue is very important.


Your insistence on the distinction between "Christ" and "Messiah" is absolutely false and unbiblical. As explained in my last email, the word "Christ" means "Messiah." The two words are interchangeable. They mean the same thing. There is no difference between "Christ" and "Messiah." Every Christian should know this because it is taught in the plain text of the Holy Word:
John 1:41 He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which is translated, the Christ).

In your first email you wrote: "The name "Messiah" is actually only used twice in the Bible according to Strong's Concordance." That is not correct. You forgot to check the New Testament in which "Messiah" is listed as Strong's number 3323. And in both cases God ensures that there can be no mistake by translating the word "Messiah" as "Christ" in the very text of His Word:
John 4:25-26 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things." Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."

Do you see that? The text explains that Messiah is called Christ, and then Jesus Himself declared "I who speak to you am He." When John Hagee says that Jesus did not come to be Messiah, he directly contradicts the very word of the Lord Jesus Christ as well as the entire New Testament. Every reference to Jesus as "the Christ" could accurately and correctly be translated as "the Messiah" which is exactly how the Jewish Complete Bible does it throughout the New Testament. For example, here is how the Messianic JEWS translate 1 John 2:22:
CJB 1 John 2:22 Who is a liar at all, if not the person who denies that Yeshua is the Messiah? Such a person is an anti-Messiah- he is denying the Father and the Son.
Even non-Jewish translations sometimes translate "Christ" as "Messiah" to help the reader who might be ignorant of this basic fact.


John Hagee teaches that Jesus Himself denied being the Messiah. This also is false. It directly contradicts the plain teaching of the Holy Word:
Matthew 16:15-17 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ [MESSIAH], the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

See that? Christ said that God the Father had revealed the He was Messiah (Christ). Some the translations use "Messiah" in Matthew 16:16 to help folks who don't understand the that "Christ" literally means "Messiah. A couple examples are the God's Word to the Nations version and the New Living Translation:
GWN Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God!"



NLT Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

And if that's not enough, the Salkinson-Ginsburg edition of the Hebrew New Testament consistently translates the Greek "Christos" as the Hebrew "Meshiach" throughout from beginning to end! And if that's not enough, go visit your local Chirstian Bookstore and glance at the heading over Mark 8:26 in "The Complete Word Study New Testament" edited by Spiros Zodhiates which states (in bold print and large font):
Peter’s Declaration That Jesus Is the Messiah (Matt. 16:13-20; Luke 9:18-21)

I could go on and on and on and on forever and ever! The proof is total and complete! There is no ambiguity whatsoever. God's Word declares it. All scholars confirm it. And Webster's dictionary defines it (in caps, no less!):
Christ, noun


[Middle English Crist, from Old English, from Latin Christus, from Greek Christos, literally, anointed, from chriein]


(before 12th century)


1 : MESSIAH


2 : JESUS
There are two statements that define the Christian faith: 1) JESUS is LORD, 2) JESUS is MESSIAH. That is why God's Word says that anyone who denies that Jesus is Messiah is antichrist. To say that Jesus didn't come to be Messiah in the first century contradicts everything declared in the New Testament from beginning to end. It is pure heresy. It is pure apostasy. It is entirely the spirit of antichrist.


As for the idea that "Christ has two roles, one our Savior and the other as Messiah" --- That too is entirely false. When the angels announced the birth of Christ, they declared He was both Saviour and Chirst (Messiah). Here it is in three translations:
KJV Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord



NLT Luke 2:11 The Savior-- yes, the Messiah, the Lord-- has been born today in Bethlehem, the city of David!



CJB Luke 2:11 This very day, in the town of David, there was born for you a Deliverer who is the Messiah, the Lord.
I hope you understand that I am speaking very plainly because clarity on this issue is absolutely essential. We are talking about the fundamental declaration of Jesus as Messiah! John Hagee has publically denied Him. And now he has comfirmed his denial of Jesus as Messiah in a public statement defending his book. God have mercy on his soul that he may come to repentance!

I pray you too have a wonderful and a blessed and a peaceful day of Thanksgiving unto God,

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
11-20-2007, 09:09 PM
I received a third email from [name withheld]:



----- Original Message -----
From: [name withheld]
To: Richard Amiel McGough (richard@biblewheel.com)
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: In Defense of Israel


Hi Richard,

Well, this has become quite the debate hasn't it? But I love digging deeply into God's Word. It is so alive and real. It truly is the bread of life for me.

I think we are disagreeing on something we really don't disagree on. As I said before, Christ is the Messiah, they are one in the same. But Daniel 9: 24-26 tell us Messiah the Prince will return to bring everlasting peace and righteousness in the latter days, Dan. 10:14. And that is what I believe Pastor Hagee was talking about. Christ came first to be the Savior and sacrifice for the sins of the world. He will come again to be Messiah The Prince. I just cannot agree with you that he was saying Christ is not the Messiah. I don't believe that. And yes I do believe Christ has/had two roles, one He already fulfilled paving the way for His role as the King of Kings and ruler of the entire world, which He did not do when He was here the first time.

I guess we have to agree to disagree on this. Because I hold to the fact Christ is the Messiah and was from the beginning but that His role as leader and ruler of the world as Messiah is yet to happen as stated in Daniel. The Jews were looking for a King, a physical leader to take over the world and rule. They wanted to see a Messiah that was full of power and would defeat all the enemies of the Jews. Just as they wanted a physical king in the Old Testament, they again wanted the same. They couldn't accept that Christ riding on a lowly donkey was their King or Messiah. They were looking for a powerful ruler, that's what Messiah meant to them.



And here is my response:



Hello [name withheld],

I'm glad you wrote back. Yes, this is a bit of a "debate" but debates are very good things because they can help us discern the truth of God's Word. They turn bad only when people start being abusive to each other, and I don't think that is going to happen between us. I am delighted to know that you love God's Word as do I.

I agree that we may have to agree to disagree. But if so, it would be best if we could agree about the exact nature of the disagreement. There is still some confusion on that point. It appears that you have chosen to ignore the words that John Hagee has stated. That is your choice, but it is my duty to warn you as a brother in Christ that such behaviour will lead you away from the truth of God, and could shipwreck your faith and the faith of those you influence.

So it is in the Spirit of God's Truth and in the Peace of God's Spirit that I present these facts for your consideration.

I begin with your statement that "I just cannot agree with you that he was saying Christ is not the Messiah. I don't believe that."

Then I must ask, Why do you refuse to believe Hagee's own words, and his defense of those words? In his book he repeatedly and explictly stated that Jesus "refused to be Messiah." Here are some quotes:


If God intended for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel, why didn't he authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God's Messiah, just as Moses had done? (p. 137)
Jesus refused to produce a sign ... because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be Messiah. (p 138)
If Jesus wanted to be Messiah, why did he repeatedly tell his disciples and followers to "tell no one" about his supernatural accomplishments? (p. 139)
The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews. (p. 140)
They wanted him to be their Messiah, but he flatly refused. (p. 141)
He refused to be their Messiah, choosing instead to be the Savior of the world (p. 143)
Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of Messiah in word or deed. (p. 145)
Take a look at the first point. Hagee says Christ refused to use miraculous signs to prove He was Messiah. And in his recent defense of his book where he wrote the following (you can read his entire defense here (http://theexpositor.wordpress.com/2007/11/16/john-hagee-responds-to-controversy/)):



Fact: Jesus claimed to be Savior several times in the Bible. He never claimed to be Messiah to the Jewish people. In John 4 Jesus told the woman at the well, a Gentile, who He was, knowing the Jews and Samaritans had nothing to do with each other. I go into this in great detail in my latest book, “In Defense of Israel.”

These statements directly contradict the plain teaching of God's Holy Word!
John 10:24-25 Then THE JEWS surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the MESSIAH, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I TOLD YOU, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.

Here, let me simplify this for you:
The Jews said "If you are the MESSIAH, tell us plainly!"
Jesus answered "I TOLD YOU, but you do not believe!But John Hagee disagrees. He says "Jesus never claimed to be Messiah!" And Hagee contradicted the Holy Word again when he wrote on page 138 "Jesus refused to produce a sign ... because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be Messiah." Hagees book is filled with errors from beginning to end! Look at the text we just cited (John 10). Jesus both claimed to be Messiah, and He appealed to His miraculous signs (works) as proof that He was Messiah when He said "The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me."

And if Jesus did not claim to be Messiah, why did the Jews accuse Him of that very thing?
Luke 23:1-2 Then the whole multitude of them arose and led Him to Pilate. 2 And they began to accuse Him, saying, "We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, saying that He Himself is MESSIAH, a King." Even the JEWS who denied that Jesus was the Messiah admit that He claimed to be Messiah! Hagee assertion that Jesus never claimed to be Messiah is as wrong as wrong can be! Why do you believe him?

You also wrote: "They couldn't accept that Christ riding on a lowly donkey was their King or Messiah."


That statemet is entirely false and unbiblical. There was a great multitude of Jews who received Him as their King Messiah that day. Forgive me for speaking plainly, but it seems as if you have never read the Bible. You beliefs seem to have been totally twisted by Hagee's false teachings. Just look at what the Bible really says!
John 12:9-16 Now a GREAT MANY OF THE JEWS knew that He was there; and they came, not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might also see Lazarus, whom He had raised from the dead. 10 But the chief priests plotted to put Lazarus to death also, 11 because on account of him MANY OF THE JEWS WENT AWAY AND BELIEVED IN JESUS 12 The next day a GREAT MULTITUDE that had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 13 took branches of palm trees and went out to meet Him, and cried out: "Hosanna! 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!' The King of Israel!" 14 Then Jesus, when He had found a young donkey, sat on it; as it is written: 15 "Fear not, daughter of Zion; Behold, your King is coming, Sitting on a donkey's colt." 16 His disciples did not understand these things at first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written about Him and that they had done these things to Him. That GREAT MULTITUDE OF JEWS accepted Jesus as King Messiah.


As a final point, you seem to be totally unaware of the fact that all the first Christians were JEWS and that they went forth by the power of God declaring that Jesus was Messiah to their fellow JEWS. That's what the New Testament declares! Jesus is the Messiah! John Hagee denies that Jesus ever said that. John Hagee denies the words of John the Apostle:
John 20:30-31 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.The Bible says "truly Jesus did many other signs" and that they were written so that you may believe that JESUS IS MESSIAH! But Hagee disagrees. Hagee says that "Jesus refused to produce a sign ... because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be Messiah" (p. 138)

I could go on and on and on and on. There really is no end to the grotesque errors of John Hagee. He contradicts the Bible at every turn. I really can't understand why this is not obvious to you. We are not talking about personal opinions or ambiguous verses. We are talking about direct contradictions to the plain meaning of the Holy Bible.

Well, I guess there is nothing more I can do for you. I have opened the Bible and have proven Hagee's errors from a dozen different angles. It is up to you to choose to follow the truth. I can not do that for you. It is a task you must take up yourself.

But if there is anything I can do to help, please do not hesitate to write.

If you really want the truth, you can read the thread devoted to this issue on my forum where you will find dozens of other atrocious errors. Or just google "Hagee apostasy" and you will find a hundreds of other Christian witnesses who are raising their voices against the abomination of John Hagee's apostasy.


I pray you remain in the Peace of Jesus the Messiah,

Richard

Rose
11-20-2007, 11:49 PM
I guess we have to agree to disagree on this. Because I hold to the fact Christ is the Messiah and was from the beginning but that His role as leader and ruler of the world as Messiah is yet to happen as stated in Daniel. The Jews were looking for a King, a physical leader to take over the world and rule. They wanted to see a Messiah that was full of power and would defeat all the enemies of the Jews. Just as they wanted a physical king in the Old Testament, they again wanted the same. They couldn't accept that Christ riding on a lowly donkey was their King or Messiah. They were looking for a powerful ruler, that's what Messiah meant to them.The thought that came to mind as I was reading this was.....does it really matter what "some" of the Jews were looking for in a Messiah? Just because they wanted a Messiah that would be a physical leader at that time doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't their Messiah. So what if they couldn't accept Christ riding on a lowly donkey as their Messiah. Since when does what we want change God's plan!

When these seeds of deception get planted in peoples minds, only harm can come from it. Woe to those that spread them.

Rose

Richard Amiel McGough
11-20-2007, 11:58 PM
I found this excellent refutation (http://www.silentcryministries.org/page2.html) of Hagee's heresy on the Silent Cry Ministries website. Permission was granted to reproduce it so long as you keep the copyright intact. The closing paragraph is so important I will quote it first to ensure that no one misses it:
At this Christmas time, when our children recite 'For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord (The Messiah the Lord)'(Luke 2:11), we must stand up and defend the truth against pernicious heresies and those who would promote such lies. Hagee’s own words condemn him in light of what the Bible teaches and proclaims. The truth is that Jesus came to be the Messiah and that He claimed to be the Messiah. Upon this declaration the Church has stood for two thousand years. Against such heresies as these the Church, made up of both Jew and Gentile, has contended against. Now, it is our turn to stand for truth, to contend for the faith once delivered unto us and to call Hagee to repentance and should he refuse, to renounce him as Scripture says, as 'a liar' and remove his books from our shelves, his teaching tapes/cds/dvds from our homes and declare him 'Anathema'.And now for the full article:
=================================================



Defending the Faith
with Elegance
Is Jesus the Messiah?



By Nancy A. Almodovar
Volume 1 No. 2
©2007, Silent Cry Ministries, Inc.

In the last edition of this column, the reader was encouraged to 'take out this rusty old tool (apologetics) and sharpen it through studying is biblical and historical place within the Christian faith learning to use it skillfully as an ‘approved workmen rightly dividing the word of truth’.' What could not be foreseen when that was written was the attack that would come to the very fabric of the Christian faith: The question of whether or not Jesus came to be the Messiah.

In a new book by John Hagee entitled In Defense of Israel, this pastor of Cornerstone Church in Texas proceeds to make some very bold claims about Jesus and His mission that are counter to what has been taught since the days of Jesus and the Apostles. The question arises then whether or not we have been taught incorrectly all these millennia? Has Hagee stumbled upon a truth 'hidden for 2000 years?' Did Jesus actually claim to be the Messiah, both for the Jew and Gentile? Since Hagee is such a popular preacher/teacher and his website boasts millions of followers, should what he publishes come under scrutiny?

Obviously the answer is yes for two reasons. One, if Hagee is right then we have been following someone who is not the Anointed One from God. Two, if Hagee is wrong than his teachings are wrong, and heretical and his teachings and he must be condemned as such.



Though there is much to discuss in this book the main point of the entire text is whether or not Jesus came to be and claimed to be the Messiah. First, one must define the terms that will be discussed: 'Christ' is the English word for the Greek word 'cristos' which means 'anointed one'. Messiah is the English word for the Hebrew word 'messiach' which means 'anointed one'. They are therefore synonymous. If you call Jesus 'The Christ' your are calling Him 'The Messiah'. I point that out because you will see from the quotes that Hagee denies that Jesus came to be the Messiah, or Cristos/Christ. Since it is only right when discussing someone’s work to quote them it will be done and after each quote, we will then see what Scripture teaches. The question of whether or not Jesus came to be the Messiah is crucial to our faith for if He did not than our faith is in a mere man and our hope is lost.
'When Jesus was still an infant, the Holy Spirit spoke through Simeon concerning God’s sovereign will for the life of Jesus:



So he [Simeon] came by the Spirit into the temple, and when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law, he took Him up in his arms and blessed God and said: 'Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace, according to Your word; for mine eyes have seen Your salvation which You have prepared before the face of all peoples, a light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of Your people Israel.
-Luke 2:27-32 emphasis added



The Holy Spirit of God announced through a Jewish prophet, Simeon, that the sovereign purpose for Jesus’s life was to be a light to the Gentiles (compare Isaiah 42:6).'[1]You will notice that Hagee does not include the entire statement in his analysis and leaves off 'and the glory of Your people Israel' in his quote. Jesus came for both Jew and Gentile. He is a light to the Gentiles who had been outside the Covenant of Grace as well as the People of Israel who were saved by grace through faith in the coming Messiah. Hagee deliberately leaves off the second statement and leads you to believe that Jesus only came for the Gentile. However, even the Apostle Paul writes: 'To the Jew first and then the Gentile' (Romans 1:16)



However, let us continue.
'If God intended for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel, why didn’t he authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God’s Messiah, just as Moses had done? The Jews, knowing of Moses’s signs to Israel, asked for a supernatural sign that Jesus was indeed their Messiah.


Jesus answered:


No sign will be given…except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
-Matthew 12:39-40' [2]

Again, Hagee dissects the verse and removes a key portion. Jesus was responding to the request for a sign and says, '"An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.' Jesus calls them, 'an evil and adulterous generation'. The sign He would give those to whom He was speaking was the most important sign of His ministry, His resurrection. Jesus was going to give them a sign, just not a sign they wanted. Wrongly, Hagee diverts your attention in the verse by removing a key portion of the discussion and concludes that Jesus was solely speaking about the Gentiles. He continues by taking another verse out of context (p. 138) by saying that He calls Peter 'Simon Bar-Jonah' not because Jonah was Simon’s father but because Simon would be like Jonah and bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. However, if you continue to read the passage in Matthew 12 you will see that Jesus declared Himself to be 'something greater than Jonah…'
'If Jesus wanted to be Messiah, why did he repeatedly tell his disciples and followers to ‘tell no one’ about his supernatural accomplishments?'[3]

Though there are times when Jesus squelched this publication of who He was, it was not always the case. For the most part, Jesus was not going to put on a show, neither had he come to be King but servant (cf. Phil 2:8).[/font]
'He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Matthew 16:15-16
And he asked them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered him, "You are the Christ." Mark 8:29
Then he said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" And Peter answered, "The Christ of God." Luke 9:20 In each of the first three Gospels, near the center of them, is the declaration of Peter as to whom Jesus is, 'The Christ of God'/' The Messiah of God.' There is no doubt when you read these passages that Jesus was and is the Messiah of God. If not, than we have a serious problem because the Bible is in error and we can no longer claim it to be infallible and therefore it cannot be inspired. At this point what use is our faith if Jesus is not the Messiah.

The Gospel of John, written near the end of the Apostle John’s life gives us a startling declaration with regard to how Jesus’ Jewish followers saw him. John was writing to the churches who were a combination of Jewish and Gentile believers. When Andrew finds his brother he tells him straight out: 'We have found the Messiah" (which means Christ). John 1:41ESV



When Jesus speaks with the woman at the well he tells her plainly that he is the Messiah.
'The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things. Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am he." ." John 4:25-26 ESVAt Jesus’ trial before the High Priest, Jesus declares that He is the Christ, the Messiah:


But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy. Matthew 26:63-65Jesus, by his own testimony, declared that He is the Messiah. From the time of His birth and the angelic announcement, through his life and trial, and most assuredly by His resurrection, Jesus came to be the Messiah, the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

So what happens with Hagee and his denial that Jesus came to be the Messiah? Is he merely mistaken? Did he misrepresent his position? If his statements had been made once in the book, one might be able to give leniency. However, time and again, throughout the book, John Hagee, a pastor who is required to preach and teach truth, denies that Jesus came to be the Messiah; teaching instead that Jesus is not the Christ, he is not the Messiah for both Jew and Gentile. What then does the Bible say of those who deny that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah?

Scripture says: 'Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.' 1 John 2:22

At this Christmas time, when our children recite 'For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord (The Messiah the Lord)'(Luke 2:11), we must stand up and defend the truth against pernicious heresies and those who would promote such lies. Hagee’s own words condemn him in light of what the Bible teaches and proclaims. The truth is that Jesus came to be the Messiah and that He claimed to be the Messiah. Upon this declaration the Church has stood for two thousand years. Against such heresies as these the Church, made up of both Jew and Gentile, has contended against. Now, it is our turn to stand for truth, to contend for the faith once delivered unto us and to call Hagee to repentance and should he refuse, to renounce him as Scripture says, as 'a liar' and remove his books from our shelves, his teaching tapes/cds/dvds from our homes and declare him 'Anathema'.

The truth is this: Jesus is The Messiah, the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

May God have mercy and restrain His People, both Jew and Gentile, from falling into these heretical caverns and may He grants us, His People from every tongue, tribe and nation, both Jew and Gentile, to proclaim again that God sent Jesus to be the Messiah, the Savior of the world.




Bibliography
Hagee, John. In defense of Israel. First Edition; Lake Mary, Florida: FrontLine A Strang company, 2007.

All Scripture quotations (outside of quotes from Hagee’s book) are from the English Standard Version

Permission to use this is granted but copyright must be maintained on document.
[1] (http://silentcryministries.org/#_ftnref1) John Hagee, In defense of Israel (First Edition; Lake Mary, Florida: FrontLine A Strang company, 2007). p. 133
[2] (http://silentcryministries.org/#_ftnref2) Ibid. p. 137-8
[3] (http://silentcryministries.org/#_ftnref3)Ibid. p. 139
===========================================

Richard Amiel McGough
11-21-2007, 12:19 AM
The thought that came to mind as I was reading this was.....does it really matter what "some" of the Jews were looking for in a Messiah? Just because they wanted a Messiah that would be a physical leader at that time doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't their Messiah. So what if they couldn't accept Christ riding on a lowly donkey as their Messiah. Since when does what we want change God's plan!

When these seeds of deception get planted in peoples minds, only harm can come from it. Woe to those that spread them.

Rose
Exactly! Basically, Hagee is saying that the Jews are correct to say "The Messiah on a donkey?! Oy vey! We want none of that!"

And of course, the "they" that rejected him were not "all Jews." The Bible says there was a GREAT MULTITUDE OF JEWS that followed Christ as their Messiah.

But the most important thing to understand is this: The idea that Jesus should be rejected as the Jewish Messiah because of what some Jews wanted or expected Him to be is one of the most ludicrous theological propositions ever stated in the history of Christianity. What ever happened to the understanding that it is God who determined what the Messiah would be, and how He would accomplish His task?

Oy Vey indeed! John Hagee has produced a veritable MOUNTAIN of heresy. How many sheep are now mindlessly rebleating his perverse lies that Jesus wasn't the Jewish Messiah because He wasn't the carnal conqueror that "the Jews" wanted?

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
11-21-2007, 10:28 AM
PJ Miller read the whole book and posted his insights over on his blog (http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2007/11/13/finally-read-the-entire-book/). Here is a snippet of what he wrote:


No where in this 207 page book did I see where Christ was lifted up; instead John Hagee lifts up in all 12 chapters a people and a land. Along with this idol worship, he points out time after time, in chapter after chapter, that we better wake up and realize the debt we owe, not to Christ, but to the Jewish people–he even has one chapter devoted entirely to this, chapter 8: 'Our Debt to the Jewish People'. To be frank, reading his words stunned me, even though I had read some things taken from the book before. This is a man ate up with zeal, not of/for God, but for a cause. Its actually kind of spooky.

Richard

kathryn
11-21-2007, 01:13 PM
Unfortunately, this is the prevailing mindset in many of the churches in my area and it is indeed spooky. I can't help but wonder though, if Hagee's glaring error about Jesus Christ not being the Messiah, might not be the catalyst that finally wakes some of them up, by showing them the end result of what happens when we refuse to cast out Hagar the bondwoman and her son.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-21-2007, 02:29 PM
Unfortunately, this is the prevailing mindset in many of the churches in my area and it is indeed spooky. I can't help but wonder though, if Hagee's glaring error about Jesus Christ not being the Messiah, might not be the catalyst that finally wakes some of them up, by showing them the end result of what happens when we refuse to cast out Hagar the bondwoman and her son.

Very interesting insight Kathryn! We know that God, in His infinite Wisdom, can work all things together to fulfill His will, even our sin. I think the best example of this is Acts:
Acts 2:22-23 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
So it was God used sinners to accomplish His Will. Its really a deep mystery. This verse also applies to this thread, because it shows again that God did indeed prove Jesus was Messiah with "miracles and wonders and signs" which Hagee denies.

So yes, Hagee's error could be used of God to prompt Christians to clean up their "doctrinal house." And then there is always the hope of the greatest miracle - Hagee could publicly repent of his sin and denounce all his heresies and false teachings!

Richard

Serenity Grace
11-25-2007, 02:31 PM
Hello Family in Christ,

I don't agree with Apostasy and Kathryn know your frustration about being surrounded by people following error, we r in the midst of ones following jw's, sda's, christadelphecans, catholics and denominalationists, traditionalist's petnecostals along with new age, eastern religion, one neighbour caught up into voodooism plus the mulitudes of error that everyone lives, and is living in etc....and we are in an area of many run away christians and those caught up into addictions, so we know your dilemma, but we also know ours, of many not knowing about the Body of Christ, who and what they are nor even the Gospel of Lord Jesus Christ's saving life, grace, mercy, truth, hope, His blood and witness and the mulitude of ways He gives to us. Many still think He is about the ten commandments and the old covenant. And am rejoicing and longing for the day when His people get outside the church building and go and do the ministery of Lord Jesus Christ and harvest our fields.

We owe a debt to Lord Jesus Christ, that He paid for us, a debt that we can never ever pay, a debt that He paid in full that He did through His redemption. The payment He wants comes through His loving Life we have for Him and each other. That we love Him and each other.

We also owe a debt of gratitude, because all of Israel wouldn't accept Him, we got to Have Him and all that He is and comes with and wow is all I can say, and that doesn't even express the gratitude I have for Lord Jesus Christ or His Chosen people. I am grateful to His remnant throughout the centuries, as well and what they have lived, that we can have now and all those that are in His remnant that live His truth and have been faithful when the multitude have gone astray. That we can even partake of the Covenant He made with Abraham, Isaac, and Israel and be a part of the seed of David, Lord Jesus Christ and His new covenant, and to all that He gives and has done through His people. And will also rejoice as we have grieved with Zion and have lived as the daughter of Zion, when the ruined sanctuary is restored and the latter Glory is even more better than the former. And that is coming.

Lord Jesus Christ loves all His chosen people coming from His chosen nation/s, as much as He loves the Body of Christ and they are in the centre of His heart, and one day we will all be one.

Advancing Christ's Kingdom
Mother Serenity Grace
Homeheart Ministeries
His eternal love is in our home and our home is in His eternal love...John 14:20-1

sula
11-25-2007, 02:50 PM
Listen to this radio broadcast......fast forward thru the first interview.....the 2nd one is an interview w/a Messianic Rabbi and his thoughts about John Hagee's latest falling from grace amongst believers......not to mention his standing w/the Lord at this time.

http://www.jigministries.tv/video/128707-john-hagee-denies-jesus-is-the-messiah.html

Also, I included an email I sent to his customer service email address......there seems to be no other way to get in touch w/him other than phoning. We live outside the US and we have a pretty strong adversion to being put on hold at international rates...so emailed.......I have no idea what the chances are of this letter making it to the hands of John Hagee.....but there is always hope.



I realize that this is the "customer service" email address and but it is the only email address available on the official Hagee site. If we lived inside the country of the US, we could call, but since we do not and there are many of us, we need a better contact email address. We are most anxious to know the truth in this matter.

There are many of us who live outside the US and spend every Sunday watching Hagee live; have supported him, believed in him and his teachings, prayed for him. The latest scandulous reports/rumors have many of us very upset, disappointed and frankly, feeling betrayed and deceived. The christian forums are all a-buzz with genuine disappointment, sense of betrayal, prayers that this is not true and there are many with stones in hand and are prepared to cast the first stone. While each of us is responsible to the Lord for paying attention and recognizing false teachers, on the other hand, we are also responsible for not following false rumors and accusations without thorough investigation. It is even far more serious for a man of God to speak such heresy against the Lord...the very Lord he has preached and supported. I pray that John Hagee has not fallen victim to the great deceiver. The evidence is very negative....not a good sign. It would appear that these very words are spoken from renowned pastor/teacher, John Hagee:


quote:

"It (the book Hagee is pushing.... "In Defense of Israel") will prove that Jesus did not come to earth to be the messiah. It will prove that there was a Calvery conspiracy between Rome, the high priest, and Herod to execute Jesus as an insurrectionist too dangerous to live. Since Jesus refused by word and deed to claim to be the messiah, how can the Jews be blamed for rejecting what was never offered?"


We ALL want and deserve a personal word from John Hagee himself. Is the following video a true depiction of Hagee's stand on Jesus not being the Messiah? Did John Hagee really speak these words? Is this video a very cleverly done hoaxe?

http://threshingfloor.onevoicemm.net/weblog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/hagee-10-03-07.wmv

Please, Please...tell us, the faithful followers of John Hagee and believers in the Messiah, Jesus Christ, the truth. Doesn't Hagee realize what he has done? If in fact this is true, his entire testimony and ministry is down the tubes; his ears in Washington have just been closed; those supporting him as he supports Israel will turn away. He has allowed satan to destroy everything he has ever done on behalf of the "lost sheep of the house of Israel". What a very, very sad commentary on what was in the past, a great man of God. The bigger they are, the harder they fall. I would imagine that the Joel Olsteens, Rick Warrens, abortionists, gay-rights' supporters, etc. are feeling pretty darn secure these days in their weak gospel but that is where a majority of the Hagee followers will go, many will fall away.....not this one, however but I will not listen to a known heretic preach an ungodly message......but OH.....God have mercy.....what a travesty this will be for the Hagee Ministry. I pray...EARNESTLY that this is a very ugly rumor and not the truth!!!!

We deserve a response.

Dr & Mrs. Garry C. Henderson

Richard Amiel McGough
11-25-2007, 03:54 PM
Listen to this radio broadcast......fast forward thru the first interview.....the 2nd one is an interview w/a Messianic Rabbi and his thoughts about John Hagee's latest falling from grace amongst believers......not to mention his standing w/the Lord at this time.

http://www.jigministries.tv/video/128707-john-hagee-denies-jesus-is-the-messiah.html

Hi sula,

I went to that site and saw the video advertisement that has been online for a long time. I didn't see anything about an "interview" withe a Messianic Rabbi. Could you clarify?

I wonder what Hagee thinks about Jews calling themselves "Messianic" now that he teaches that Jesus didn't come to be Messiah to the Jews?


Also, I included an email I sent to his customer service email address......there seems to be no other way to get in touch w/him other than phoning. We live outside the US and we have a pretty strong adversion to being put on hold at international rates...so emailed.......I have no idea what the chances are of this letter making it to the hands of John Hagee.....but there is always hope.

I realize that this is the "customer service" email address and but it is the only email address available on the official Hagee site. If we lived inside the country of the US, we could call, but since we do not and there are many of us, we need a better contact email address. We are most anxious to know the truth in this matter.
I'm sure they are being absolutely flooded with emails. And that only shows how bad their error has become. They own mutliple websites, but none of them (as far as I know) says a word about this controversy. For example, his main website has nothing: http://www.jhm.org.

Hagee has offended all orthodox Christians on the planet. He stands accused of the grossest heresy! Why does he refuse to answer? Of course, a few websites (discussed above) are now posting an answer they said they received through email from him, but that is not the responsible way to answer. He needs to do it directly from his website.


There are many of us who live outside the US and spend every Sunday watching Hagee live; have supported him, believed in him and his teachings, prayed for him. The latest scandulous reports/rumors have many of us very upset, disappointed and frankly, feeling betrayed and deceived. The christian forums are all a-buzz with genuine disappointment, sense of betrayal, prayers that this is not true and there are many with stones in hand and are prepared to cast the first stone. While each of us is responsible to the Lord for paying attention and recognizing false teachers, on the other hand, we are also responsible for not following false rumors and accusations without thorough investigation. It is even far more serious for a man of God to speak such heresy against the Lord...the very Lord he has preached and supported. I pray that John Hagee has not fallen victim to the great deceiver. The evidence is very negative....not a good sign. It would appear that these very words are spoken from renowned pastor/teacher, John Hagee:


It (the book Hagee is pushing.... "In Defense of Israel") will prove that Jesus did not come to earth to be the messiah. It will prove that there was a Calvery conspiracy between Rome, the high priest, and Herod to execute Jesus as an insurrectionist too dangerous to live. Since Jesus refused by word and deed to claim to be the messiah, how can the Jews be blamed for rejecting what was never offered?"

We ALL want and deserve a personal word from John Hagee himself. Is the following video a true depiction of Hagee's stand on Jesus not being the Messiah? Did John Hagee really speak these words? Is this video a very cleverly done hoaxe?

http://threshingfloor.onevoicemm.net/weblog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/hagee-10-03-07.wmv

Yes, Hagee REALLY REALLY REALLY did say those words! And the book he published confirms that he really is teaching those things. It is no hoax. The proof is fully confirmed.



Please, Please...tell us, the faithful followers of John Hagee and believers in the Messiah, Jesus Christ, the truth. Doesn't Hagee realize what he has done? If in fact this is true, his entire testimony and ministry is down the tubes; his ears in Washington have just been closed; those supporting him as he supports Israel will turn away. He has allowed satan to destroy everything he has ever done on behalf of the "lost sheep of the house of Israel". What a very, very sad commentary on what was in the past, a great man of God. The bigger they are, the harder they fall. I would imagine that the Joel Olsteens, Rick Warrens, abortionists, gay-rights' supporters, etc. are feeling pretty darn secure these days in their weak gospel but that is where a majority of the Hagee followers will go, many will fall away.....not this one, however but I will not listen to a known heretic preach an ungodly message......but OH.....God have mercy.....what a travesty this will be for the Hagee Ministry. I pray...EARNESTLY that this is a very ugly rumor and not the truth!!!!

We deserve a response.

Dr & Mrs. Garry C. Henderson
Sula,

Please let me know if I can do anything more to help. I have been reading some of the forums where folks try to defend Hagee. The problem is that they try to defend him without any appeal to the Bible! All they talk about is what some of the first century Jews "wanted" or "expected" as if that has anything to do with the Biblical doctrine of Christ as Messiah. This is the fruit of John Hagee's teachings. All his followers appear to have abandoned the Bible in favor of Hagee's private opinions about how Jesus "refused to be the Messiah!" It is a horror and a tragedy and a travesty all rolled together into one ball of gross apostasy.

God have mercy on his followers, that He call them out quickly!

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
11-25-2007, 04:09 PM
We owe a debt to Lord Jesus Christ, that He paid for us, a debt that we can never ever pay, a debt that He paid in full that He did through His redemption. The payment He wants comes through His loving Life we have for Him and each other. That we love Him and each other.

We also owe a debt of gratitude, because all of Israel wouldn't accept Him, we got to Have Him and all that He is and comes with and wow is all I can say, and that doesn't even express the gratitude I have for Lord Jesus Christ or His Chosen people.
I am grateful for God and the people He chose in the past to bring forth the Messiah. But do you think they are still "His Chosen people"? Even those who don't believe? The Bible says they are NOT the children of God (Rom 9:8). And what about the Christians that He calls His Elect? Elect means Chosen. Does He have two different groups of "Chosen people"?

And if you are grateful that the Jews rejected Him, does that mean that you are grateful that Judas betrayed Him?


It is really important to realize that God used truly sinful people to accomplish His holy will, as it is written:
Acts 2:22-24 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
See that? God used the wicked hands of sinners to accomplish His holy will. We are supposed to be grateful to God for the good He did despite our sin, not to sinners for the evil that they did. We do not owe a "debt of gratitude" to the Jews that rejected Christ.


I am grateful to His remnant throughout the centuries, as well and what they have lived, that we can have now and all those that are in His remnant that live His truth and have been faithful when the multitude have gone astray. That we can even partake of the Covenant He made with Abraham, Isaac, and Israel and be a part of the seed of David, Lord Jesus Christ and His new covenant, and to all that He gives and has done through His people. And will also rejoice as we have grieved with Zion and have lived as the daughter of Zion, when the ruined sanctuary is restored and the latter Glory is even more better than the former. And that is coming.

Lord Jesus Christ loves all His chosen people coming from His chosen nation/s, as much as He loves the Body of Christ and they are in the centre of His heart, and one day we will all be one.

Advancing Christ's Kingdom
Mother Serenity Grace
Homeheart Ministeries
His eternal love is in our home and our home is in His eternal love...John 14:20-1
I too am grateful for the Jews still existing, and am hopeful that they will come to the truth. But God declares that the Body of Christ is His Chosen People, and we must not say otherwise.

I hope you receive this in the spirit of peace in which it was sent,

God bless you Serenity Grace,

Richard

sula
11-25-2007, 04:29 PM
http://www.trunews.com/Audio/11_16_07_friday_trunews.mp3

Fast forward to the interview

Richard Amiel McGough
11-25-2007, 08:32 PM
http://www.trunews.com/Audio/11_16_07_friday_trunews.mp3

Fast forward to the interview
Thanks for the link Sula. I recommend that everyone listen to it. The interview begins about 15 minutes into the sound file. Both the host and the rabbi are rock-solid Christians. They repeatedly declare with great force and clarity the truth that John Hagee's teachings are "blasphemy," "heresy," "apostasy," "satanic," and "antichrist."

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
11-28-2007, 05:52 PM
The Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (http://www.umjc.net) has published a response to John Hagee's heresy. It begins as follows (highlights added):



On November 28, 2007, the Executive Committee of the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations issued the following statement concerning certain doctrinal positions espoused in the recently published book, In Defense of Israel, by Pastor John Hagee:

As Messianic Jews we appreciate the support for Israel and the Jewish community that many Christians have shown in recent years. This remarkable change in Jewish-Christian relations corrects centuries of Christian anti-Semitism and promises to bear much fruit in the coming years. In particular, we recognize the important work that Pastor John Hagee has accomplished in rallying thousands of Christians to this cause. At the same time, we must note serious concerns about some of Pastor Hagee’s doctrinal positions, particularly as expressed in his recent book, In Defense of Israel. These teachings contradict biblical doctrine, undermine the testimony of Jewish followers of Jesus, and weaken the cause of Christian supporters of the Jewish people.

Hagee argues that Jesus is not the Messiah of the Jews, but rather the Savior of the world. The premise that Jesus is not Messiah not only ignores numerous passages in the New Testament, but also undermines the very claim that Jesus is Savior. The New Testament opens with the words, “An account of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham” (Matthew 1:1, NRSV). (John 1:41 and 4:25 state that the words Messiah and Christ are equivalent, respectively the Hebrew and Greek terms for “anointed one.”) If Messiah, son of David, is not Israel’s king, then whose king is he? Matthew connects the Messiahship of Jesus to his descent from Israel’s greatest king, David, and the father of the Jewish people, Abraham. At the feast of Shavuot (Pentecost) Peter proclaimed to “Jews from every nation,” “Therefore let the entire house of Israel know with certainty that God has made him both Lord and Messiah . . .” (Acts 2:5, 36). As a result, thousands of Jewish people acknowledged Jesus as Messiah that day. By the end of the 1st century there were multiple thousands of Jews who acknowledged Jesus as Messiah. Were they wrong?

Read more on their site here (http://www.umjc.net/content/view/342/40/).

Also Russ Resnik, a Messianic Rabbi with a blog on that site, wrote a review of Hagee's book. Here is a snippet (highlights added):


Pastor Hagee, of course, is a key figure in today’s Christian Zionist movement, who has raised tens of millions of dollars for Israel and rallied many thousands of Christians in support of the Jewish state. As with other Christian Zionist and Jewish reconciliation efforts, Messianic Jews have been kept on the margins in Hagee’s efforts. From a practical perspective, this is understandable; if I as a visible Messianic leader were recognized at a Night to Honor Israel (Hagee’s signature event), many of the other Jews in attendance would be likely to walk out. I can accept this sort of marginalization because of the benefit of raising support for Israel, and bringing Christians and Jews together in cooperative efforts. Hagee’s book goes beyond this sort of pragmatic marginalizing of Messianic Jews, however, to theologically marginalize us in a way that demands a response. “In Defense of Israel” distorts the teaching of the Scriptures, attacks the foundation of today’s Messianic Jewish community, and weakens the very cause of Christian Zionism to which Hagee has lent such laudable efforts.

For the sake of brevity, I will focus on Hagee's claim that Jesus did not come to earth to be the Messiah, thus making it inevitable that the Jewish people would reject him as Messiah. Obviously such a claim completely contradicts our Messianic Jewish vision. It also suggests that Hagee’s avoidance of Messianic Jews is not just a tactical step to avoid offending other Jewish people. Rather, in reading Hagee’s book we discover that we do not fit into his doctrinal grid, which reflects an extreme form of dispensationalism. According to Hagee, we are mistaken in thinking that Jesus is Yeshua, the Jewish Messiah, who came for our whole people. Apparently it would be acceptable from Hagee’s standpoint for us to get individually saved, but to maintain our connection with the Jewish world, and to propagate Yeshua among our people, counters his whole idiosyncratic understanding of Scripture.

Read more on his blog here (http://www.umjc.net/component/option,com_mamblog/Itemid,89/task,show/action,view/id,341/).

I can see why the Messianic Jews are upset. I mean, according to Hagee, they have to change their name! :lol:

Richard

sula
11-29-2007, 09:54 AM
YEP......I wrote his ministry and actually received a response. It follows:..Sic' Em Richard.:lol:


----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Terri Babbit <Terri.Babbitt@jhm.org>
To: "slalinh@yahoo.com" <slalinh@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 10:33:10 AM
Subject: John Hagee Ministries-Jesus: Messiah or Savior


JESUS CHRIST: SUFFERING SERVANT AND REIGNING MESSIAH



As many witness the tragedies of this world, Christians are often asked the question, "If the Messiah has come, why is there still war, poverty, disease, and man's inhumanity to man?


ANSWER: Scripture presents differing pictures of the Messiah, who is sometimes described as the "Suffering Servant" and at other times as the "Reigning King".


Jesus came first as the "Suffering Servant" and men received Him into their hearts as Savior and Lord,

'He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.' (Isaiah 53:3).


We now await His Second Coming in Revelation 19 as our "Reigning Messiah", riding on the White horse followed by the armies that are in heaven and the Church Triumphant.


FACT: According to Webster's Dictionary, the word 'Messiah' means "the expected king who delivers from oppressors." A reigning Messiah is one who "rules and reigns over a given people'; reigning Messiah's do not die, they have to live to rule and reign.


Many denominations have constructed a Catch 22 concerning Jesus and the Jews. The Catch 22 is this: 'Jesus came to be Messiah but because the Jews rejected Him as Messiah He had to go to the cross instead, hence, the Jews are the Christ Killers.'


FACT: The God of the Bible is sovereign! That means He is in control of everything in heaven and on earth all the time. If God is not sovereign, He cannot be God.


QUESTION: What was God's sovereign will for Jesus Christ in His first coming from the foundations of the earth?


ANSWER: Revelation 13:8 reads that Jesus Christ was the 'Lamb of God slain from the foundations of the world.'


This verse says it was God's Sovereign plan for Jesus to die as Savior, as the suffering Messiah, before the world was created in Genesis 1:1.


FACT: THERE IS NO DUAL COVENANT! The Bible says, 'Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved', (Acts 4:12).


Jesus Himself stated in Mark 14:8, Luke 24:46 and Mark 10:33-34 that He had come to die for the sins of the world as Savior.


John the Baptist introduced Jesus as the 'Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world', (John 1:29). The only purpose for a sacrificial lamb was to be slaughtered as a sin offering.

FACT: We now await the Second Coming of Christ, our Reigning Messiah.

"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice, He judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on His head are many crowns. He has a name written on Him that no one knows but He himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following Him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of His mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 19:11-16

I trust this simple explanation will clarify any concerns you might have concerning Jesus the Lamb of God and the Lion of Judah, as "Suffering Savior and Reigning Messiah!"

Let us prepare for the soon coming of King Jesus, our Deliverer and Reigning Messiah! It will be very soon!

Pastor John Hagee

Christians United for Israel

Richard Amiel McGough
11-29-2007, 03:53 PM
YEP......I wrote his ministry and actually received a response. It follows:..Sic' Em Richard.:lol:

Thanks Susan!

That is very helpful. It has been on the net for a while, but I was waiting for Hagee to post it on his own website so there would be no question about its validity before I answered it. But for some mysterious reason, Hagee has not posted any response to the near universal condemnation of his errors anywhere on either the site devoted specifically to his book http://indefenseofisrael.org/ or his primary ministry website http://www.jhm.org/.

Wonder why not? You'd think a minister of the Gospel of Jesus the Messiah might want to be clear that he was not denying that Jesus is the Messiah! Wouldn't you? :confused2:

Richard

sula
11-29-2007, 09:56 PM
I agree......this email I received from his ministry w/his name attached virtaully said nothing. None of us are confused about Jesus being the suffering Saviour and the Promised Messiah...DUH!!! I am sure that this is a pat statement going out to everyone.

He did not address the issue that I emailed him about.....which is his statements denying Christ as the Messiah for the Jews. That is not even touched. I intend to repsond and I hope you will too. He did deny the "dual covenant".

Are you going to email his ministry?????

Richard Amiel McGough
11-29-2007, 10:18 PM
I agree......this email I received from his ministry w/his name attached virtaully said nothing. None of us are confused about Jesus being the suffering Saviour and the Promised Messiah...DUH!!! I am sure that this is a pat statement going out to everyone.

Yep, you got his "form letter" that is being sent out in response to all the emails that ask for clarification. It actually is worse than a "pat statement" because it confirms his heretical assertions. Now that you have posted it here, I think I'll see if I can find some to write a full review of his "response."


He did not address the issue that I emailed him about.....which is his statements denying Christ as the Messiah for the Jews. That is not even touched. I intend to repsond and I hope you will too. He did deny the "dual covenant".

I don't think he addressed anyone's direct questions. The response you got is identical to the others I've seen posted on the internet that I discussed earlier in this thread.

As for "dual covenant" - All he did was deny that there is one. He didn't bother explaining why his teachings should not be understood as dual covenant. What I mean is, this man has been teaching things that definitely sound like dual covenant for decades, and all he bothers to say is "There is no dual covenant" as if that should settle it? To me, it does the opposite. It makes it look like he is secretly maintaining his dual covenant theology when he refuses - after all these years - to simply and clearly explain what he means when he says "There is not dual covenant."

Richard

sula
11-29-2007, 10:30 PM
I've already sent a reply stating that the issue at hand was not addressed. I also stated that if God forbade Moses to enter the Promised Land for angrily striking the rock, then what was God going to do about this. God may have to apologize to Moses if Hagee is allowed to get away w/this.....HA! Which we know he won't. His powerful ministry will crumble. There are many greats that have crumbled before him and there will, sadly be more like him in the future.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-29-2007, 10:36 PM
I've already sent a reply stating that the issue at hand was not addressed. I also stated that if God forbade Moses to enter the Promised Land for angrily striking the rock, then what was God going to do about this. God may have to apologize to Moses if Hagee is allowed to get away w/this.....HA! Which we know he won't. His powerful ministry will crumble. There are many greats that have crumbled before him and there will, sadly be more like him in the future.
I generally agree ... but then I think about the the false teachings of the great cults like JWs and Mormonism and Islam that God has allowed (for whatever mysterious reason) to flourish in this dark world of ours.

So I am not confident that Hagee will fall for this. It could be a sign of God's Judgment when He allows a whole congregation of 19,000 people believe a lie as blatant as "Jesus was not Messiah" to be preached from the pulpit of one of America's "Christian" megachurches.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Richard

sula
11-29-2007, 10:41 PM
Hagee will be held doubly responsible.....so sad...why do they have to fall victim to their flesh?????? What do you think about Joel Olsteen and Rick Warren?

Richard Amiel McGough
11-29-2007, 11:08 PM
Hagee will be held doubly responsible.....so sad...why do they have to fall victim to their flesh?????? What do you think about Joel Olsteen and Rick Warren?
I think Joel Olsteen is a psychological coach wrapped in a very flimsy Christian garb - I have heard very little Gospel in his teachings. I saw him on Larry King and he stumbled all over himself saying that Jesus was the "right way" for him "personally" but that he couldn't say anything about what other people should believe or some such gibberish. It was truly pathetic. Jesus as the Lord of lords and King of kings? It certainly doesn't sound like Joel has met Him in that role yet.

As for Rick Warren - I don't know much about him. Testing Christian leaders is not the primary calling that God has put on my life. But if He does bring something to my attention and ignites my spirit with His fire, what can I do but speak? Or roar, as the case may be. :lol:

Richard

Amos 3:8 The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord GOD hath spoken, who can but prophesy?

sula
11-30-2007, 09:17 AM
HOOREY!!!!!! We AGREE........as for Warren.......he doesn't talk much about sin either but I do know some have been brought to Christ because of him but they certainly do need some serious descipling. My daughter is one of them but thank God she received some good teaching to inform her that her journey had just begun. I think that is where Olsteen and Warrenfall short....jury is still out on Warren...but Olsteen....geeze.......the people love him because his words never convict. He won't commit to anything concerning homosexuality.

sula
12-02-2007, 10:15 AM
Living outside of the US, we enjoyed watching John Hagee live via our PC every Sunday; the music is great. The last 2 Sundays, the site shows that they are "unable to broadcast today". Anybody know anything else?????

Richard Amiel McGough
12-02-2007, 12:15 PM
Living outside of the US, we enjoyed watching John Hagee live via our PC every Sunday; the music is great. The last 2 Sundays, the site shows that they are "unable to broadcast today". Anybody know anything else?????
Very interesting. I haven't heard anything about that. He was still airing here in Washington last week. He's scheduled for later today on TBN. I'll let you know if his show airs.

sula
12-02-2007, 12:24 PM
Yes, I know he is on TBN but those broadcast are usually old, out of sequence, and/or repeats. We were able to watch the Sunday morning service todo LIVE.....we did enjoy it and scheduled our Sunday activities around this live broadcast.....even tho I DID ignore his comments in areas where we disagree......

We let our DISH network satellite go....just didn't watch it enough and Hagee is not live there. Oh well, Hagee-land must be having problems.

Thanks anyway.....

Jim Morrison
12-05-2007, 03:19 PM
Bravo for the great reveiw.
Jesus Christ is the Messiah of the whole world,
Jew and Gentile and everyone else if there is such a person.
Jim Morrison
Maoz Israel Ministries

Richard Amiel McGough
12-05-2007, 04:03 PM
Bravo for the great reveiw.
Jesus Christ is the Messiah of the whole world,
Jew and Gentile and everyone else if there is such a person.
Jim Morrison
Maoz Israel Ministries
Hello Jim,

and welcome to our forum!

:welcome:

Thanks for bearing witness to the greatest truth - Jesus is Messiah for all the world, Jew and Gentile! Amen! :pray:

I found your website Maoz Israel Ministries (http://www.maozisrael.org/site/PageServer?pagename=maoz_homepage) and thought it would be nice to let folks know about you, so I started a thread over in the General Discussion forum here. Feel free to hop over there and introduce yourself.

Richard

pjmiller
12-05-2007, 11:41 PM
Just wanted to give you an update concerning Hagee and this book.

According to a letter which is being circulated tonight, he has said he will re-write the one chapter which has caused conflict--is this true? I don't know for sure. BUT if it is, one chapter being edited is not enough.

I put up a post [and link to the letter] about this tonight over on my blog.

John Hagee to “re-write” a chapter of his book? (http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/john-hagee-to-re-write-a-chapter-of-his-book/)


Have you heard anything about this...and, is editing one chapter enough? I went to his website--the book is still being offered.

Hagee has done serious damage to the cause of Christ and, the gospel message.

In my opinion even if this report be true, he owes the Church of Jesus Christ an explanation, and, he needs to make PERFECTLY clear what his beliefs are on the doctrines of Christ, salvation, (his dual covenant beliefs--regardless of a later denial) and he also needs to explain his falling into idolizing a land/people.


ok, im done. :)


Forgive in typos or mistakes in grammer/spelling, im under the weather tonight..


God bless

pj

sula
12-06-2007, 02:56 PM
Hey, pjmiller....you did good.....keep us posted. And I agree w/you. Hagee is going to have to make a statement as to which way he is going to go. Christendom will not allow him to ride the fence. Having not read the book, I cannot say if one chapter will do it. A writer he is not. If this rumor is true, then he is concerned about his public image now......but he is going to have to take a stand for sure and he is going to be in deep trouble w/his Orthodix people but if he doesn't make some serious decisive changes, he is going to be in trouble w/all of Christendom and his maker. Not Good!!!

Richard Amiel McGough
12-06-2007, 03:38 PM
Just wanted to give you an update concerning Hagee and this book.

According to a letter which is being circulated tonight, he has said he will re-write the one chapter which has caused conflict--is this true? I don't know for sure. BUT if it is, one chapter being edited is not enough.

I put up a post [and link to the letter] about this tonight over on my blog.

John Hagee to 're-write' a chapter of his book? (http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/john-hagee-to-re-write-a-chapter-of-his-book/)


Have you heard anything about this...and, is editing one chapter enough? I went to his website--the book is still being offered.

Hagee has done serious damage to the cause of Christ and, the gospel message.

In my opinion even if this report be true, he owes the Church of Jesus Christ an explanation, and, he needs to make PERFECTLY clear what his beliefs are on the doctrines of Christ, salvation, (his dual covenant beliefs--regardless of a later denial) and he also needs to explain his falling into idolizing a land/people.


ok, im done. :)


Forgive in typos or mistakes in grammer/spelling, im under the weather tonight..


God bless

pj
Hey there pj!

Thanks for the update. I spoke to Don Geraci a couple weeks ago for a solid hour. He is pastor of a Calvary Chapel South Denver (http://www.calvarycsd.org/). He asked permission to reproduce my review of Hagee's book, and I gave it, of course.

He has since written his own commentary called The Mystery of Lawlessness and the Hagee Heresy (http://earlymorningmanna.com/2007/12/03/the-mystery-of-lawlessness-and-the-hagee-heresy/) that is linked from the article posted on the page (http://www.flashfloods.com/blast/0705v5PrafRE/dec057.html) you linked from your blog. He called it as it is - antichrist heresy.

Now as for the latest development. It looks to me like more antichrist deception. If Hagee had been convicted by the Spirit of Almighty God that he has been preaching heresy, then the whole world would have heard his repentence through that trumpet voice God has given him. But what have we heard? Silence. There is not a word on his ministry home page (http://www.jhm.org) about any controversy, let alone his repetence of his heresy.

And as far as I know, he is still selling and making money off his heretical book! He has not retracted it from the market place. He is actively proclaiming his heresy and profiting from it!

And besides all that, the idea of "rewriting" a heretical chapter is absurd. The whole point of that chapter was to prove that the Jews did not reject Jesus as Messiah. The entire case was built on the heresy that Christ never came to be Messiah. Exactly how could anyone correct that antichrist heresy by "rewriting" the chapter?

As far as I can tell, nothing has changed as yet.

I pray that God will convict his heart of the true malignancy of his antichrist heresy, and drop that man to his knees till he begs for mercy, truly repents, and rises triumphant over the lies of the devil and lifts his voice like a trumpet declaring "I WAS WRONG. Please forgive me! Jesus really did come to be Messiah to the Jews!"

Amen. :pray:

Richard

Trap
12-07-2007, 01:31 PM
Well I, for one, am glad that John Hagee came out with this book! Why? Because it seems to take a cataclysmic event to open the eyes of many to some wolves in sheep's clothing! I've told my brother about 'brother' Hagee for over ten years and Pat Robertson too! Perhaps we should be frightened that they're willing to throw caution to the winds as they are and at least temporarily removing their masks.

We need to book up quickly on these subjects: CryptoJew, and what the Jewish faith really is, it's not the Old Testament, it's The Talmud and the Kabballah, the understanding of the contents of these will open the eyes of ALL Christians formerly ignorant. I would start with Michael Hoffman's book: Judaism' Strange Gods and if that hasn't fully opened your eyes there are many books you can get from the Omni/Christian Book Club: www.omnicbc.com.

John Hagee was honored by the ADL an arm of B'nai B'rith (Hebrew, I believe for Sons of the Covenant). B'nai B'rith, folks is Jewish Freemasonry which has worked assidulously throughout the world to remove any vestiges of Christianity from society. I also have a picture of John Paul II with the B'nai B'rith and his praising of them. An eye-opener for Catholics who heard of this and were awake enough to gather its implications!

I get more truth from Texe Marrs, notwithstanding his antiCatholic tirades (I agree with him on many things he points out that the Catholic Church is doing wrong NOW, but differ on others). Get his weekly hour show from his website. He updates each Friday. Also, a website getting out the truth is: I am the Witness.com, i.e., the French Connection. and some shows on the Republic Broadcasting Network I like are Rick Adams, M.C.Piper, Officer Jack McLamb, and Robby Noel especially on Wednesdays as then he deals with the Christian Zionist dealie. Oh, and don't forget Ted Pike on Truthtellers.org as he's getting out a lot of information on what's really happening and fighting "Hate-Crime" legislation which is being pushed by the ADL of B'Nai B'rith which will silence and eventually imprison Christian for speaking out against homosexuality or even preaching Christ as the Saviour!

Wake up, Christians! And spread these websites and sources with everyone you can.

Our country AND our Churches, folks, are being taken over by those who have "crept in amongst you".

sula
12-07-2007, 04:54 PM
Hello Trap.....just a quick comment on your post. My first impression is one that would lead me to consider the fact that perhaps you might just be a bit anti-semetic. I pray that is not the case. There are many sects of Judaism today ranging from the very liberal to ultral right. Some are even violent in their protests, being very out-spoken and in many cases anti-evangelicals. This is most unfortunate in light of the fact that evangelicals are sincerely the best friends Jews have today or ever have had. On the other hand, some of those evangelicals can be pretty far out too. So I think we should speak with caution when we say that the Jewish faith is not of the Old Testament. Many so called "christian" faiths are not of the New Testament. Untold damage and atrocities have been done in the name of God.

I am not familiar with any of those sites, organizations you mentioned but I do intend to check them out.

My husband and I watched "Schindler's List" again this past week and after seeing this through newly educated and informed eyes, I can certainly understand why the Jews want to keep their distance from ALL non-Jews. This was a very, very dark time in our world's history and has left a very ugly stain on mankind as a whole. There are also some anointed, God fearing, Jesus professing Catholics doing a mighty work for the Lord out there too.

As for "brother" Hagee, I am MOST sorry to see what appears to be that a fellow man of faith has fallen into the snares of the great deceiver. John Hagee through out his ministry has done great and wonderful things for the Kingdom of God. But it appears as tho he is human like the rest of us and is victim to his own sinful flesh. I pray that he sees the error of his ways SOON. We christians have always been so quick to condemn/criticize our own. We all, ALL sinners put Christ on the cross.....but only because HE chose to go willingly as the Ultimate sacrifice for you and me.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-07-2007, 07:06 PM
Hi Trap,

Welcome to our forum!

:welcome:


Well I, for one, am glad that John Hagee came out with this book! Why? Because it seems to take a cataclysmic event to open the eyes of many to some wolves in sheep's clothing! I've told my brother about 'brother' Hagee for over ten years and Pat Robertson too! Perhaps we should be frightened that they're willing to throw caution to the winds as they are and at least temporarily removing their masks.

It too am glad that Hagee "took off his mask." If he had not clearly stated his heresy, it would have been impossible to convince the sheep that they had a wolf for a pastor. Indeed, even now after his blatant apostasy his pews are probably still full, and there are deceived Christians saying things like "it's not our place to judge" and "he didn't really mean what he said" etc.


We need to book up quickly on these subjects: CryptoJew, and what the Jewish faith really is, it's not the Old Testament, it's The Talmud and the Kabballah, the understanding of the contents of these will open the eyes of ALL Christians formerly ignorant. I would start with Michael Hoffman's book: Judaism' Strange Gods and if that hasn't fully opened your eyes there are many books you can get from the Omni/Christian Book Club: www.omnicbc.com (http://www.omnicbc.com).

John Hagee was honored by the ADL an arm of B'nai B'rith (Hebrew, I believe for Sons of the Covenant). B'nai B'rith, folks is Jewish Freemasonry which has worked assidulously throughout the world to remove any vestiges of Christianity from society. I also have a picture of John Paul II with the B'nai B'rith and his praising of them. An eye-opener for Catholics who heard of this and were awake enough to gather its implications!

I get more truth from Texe Marrs, notwithstanding his antiCatholic tirades (I agree with him on many things he points out that the Catholic Church is doing wrong NOW, but differ on others). Get his weekly hour show from his website. He updates each Friday. Also, a website getting out the truth is: I am the Witness.com, i.e., the French Connection. and some shows on the Republic Broadcasting Network I like are Rick Adams, M.C.Piper, Officer Jack McLamb, and Robby Noel especially on Wednesdays as then he deals with the Christian Zionist dealie. Oh, and don't forget Ted Pike on Truthtellers.org as he's getting out a lot of information on what's really happening and fighting "Hate-Crime" legislation which is being pushed by the ADL of B'Nai B'rith which will silence and eventually imprison Christian for speaking out against homosexuality or even preaching Christ as the Saviour!

Wake up, Christians! And spread these websites and sources with everyone you can.

Our country AND our Churches, folks, are being taken over by those who have "crept in amongst you".
I don't know anything about most of the people and organzations you mentioned, but I do know enough about Text Marrs to feel very very wary of any theory he tries to sell you. And I do mean sell. He makes his money selling conspiracy theories! He even endorses and sells the absurd lying antisemitic forgery "The Protocols of Zion" on his website (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=texe+marrs+protocols+zion&spell=1)! Here's how he hawks his perverse product (red highlights added):



Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion: The most banned book in all the world! It is a crime in many nations to even possess this incredible book. Coming out of Russia in the early 20th Century, it was said to be the Zionist Jews' Secret Plan for global domination. Henry Ford, industrialist and inventor of the auto assembly line, believed it to be legitimate. So, too, did famous aviator Charles Lindbergh and many others. Read and study it for yourself; but hurry: at any moment, this book may be declared illegal by opponents of Free Speech!

"This ingenious, yet monstrous plot surely was hatched from the pit of hell." —Texe Marrs


That's just not right. The "Protocols" are a forgery designed and used to justify the hatred and murder of innocent Jews.

Richard

LIVING HOPE IN JESUS
12-08-2007, 09:22 AM
The LORD Jesus plainly told us that “out of the heart a man speaks”. So is this a “rewrite” out of conviction and true repentance before The Living God while asking Jesus to save his antichrist soul or is it what we thought might happen once Hagee’s apostate heart was known publicly…..merely a grasp on his part to hold onto his monies, etc., that he so luxuriously lives on from the monies of God’s people?

Hagee’s secretary, Terri Babbit, had sent us two “explanations” from Hagee (mass-produced, of course) of his apostate assertion that Jesus was not The Messiah while here on earth and we told her to cease from sending such trash from an apostate to our email address. Her last letter to us was sent on 11/29/2007. Hagee sure has done a sudden “turn-around” in the past 9 days!

Denouncing Jesus as The Messiah is the spirit of antichrist. How does one simply “rewrite” a chapter of one’s antichrist belief? Falling down before The LORD Jesus in true repentance and asking Him for salvation is the only option for one who is antichrist…….NOT merely “rewriting” a chapter in a book.

An antichrist rewriting a chapter filled with a “forced” admission that Jesus is The Messiah (even if it is for personal gain) will still serve to be used by God to proclaim His truth about Jesus as The Messiah. While Hagee’s “rewriting” of a chapter may not really be what is in his antichrist heart, God will still use God’s truth to speak to the hearts of souls….including the many lost souls of Jews. Let us praise God for this.

Sincerely in The LORD and ONLY Savior Jesus Christ,
Stephen and Bonita Ann Richie

Living Hope In Jesus
www.livinghopeinjesus.com

Richard Amiel McGough
12-09-2007, 10:32 AM
Hey folks,

I moved the conspriracy theory stuff over into its own thread in its own brand new forum so we can get back to topoc in this thread (if there need be any kore said, I don't know).

The new forum is called "Politics, UFOs, and Conspiracy Theories" and the new thread is called Texe Marrs, The Protocols, etc..

See ya there!

Richard

sula
12-09-2007, 01:05 PM
We watched John Hagee live today....so his broadcasting is up and running. The show was current as it was the last sermon in a series he has been preaching on. I listened carefully. This was a 2nd coming sermon and of course was pre-trib, as one would expect of John Hagee. I tired to ignore that part. He did speak of Jesus coming the first time as a suffering servant/Messiah and the 2nd time HE will be a reigning Messiah. I realize this is on very thin ice taking into consideration I know the issue surrounding his latest scandalous book. But if I take just his statement I heard today, I can find no fault in those words. What he said was true..........BUT.....there is always that ..."but"....only God knows.

So, I guess we shall have to wait and see. I have nothing else to add to this...other than what I heard.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-09-2007, 01:29 PM
We watched John Hagee live today....so his broadcasting is up and running. The show was current as it was the last sermon in a series he has been preaching on. I listened carefully. This was a 2nd coming sermon and of course was pre-trib, as one would expect of John Hagee. I tired to ignore that part. He did speak of Jesus coming the first time as a suffering servant/Messiah and the 2nd time HE will be a reigning Messiah. I realize this is on very thin ice taking into consideration I know the issue surrounding his latest scandalous book. But if I take just his statement I heard today, I can find no fault in those words. What he said was true..........BUT.....there is always that ..."but"....only God knows.

So, I guess we shall have to wait and see. I have nothing else to add to this...other than what I heard.
That' the problem with his teachings ... you can snese the underlying current of heresy, but he is usually careful to stop just short of actually stating it plainly. That's why his book is so valuable. It doesn't matter how he may "rewrite it" in the future, we now have a permanent record of his heresy. His only option is to totally come clean with a full heart-broken repentence and repudiation of his errors. Anything less means that he remains an apostate from the Christian faith.

Richard

pjmiller
12-09-2007, 02:10 PM
It appears this whole re-write of the chapter was some type of ploy on the part of Hagee or an appeasement. In my personal opinion it was a ploy to gender more controversy in hopes of more book sales... think so? And an appeasement, which doesn't appear to be working.

Randy Maugans from the Threshing Floor has been in touch with Michael Brown, who in turn had been talking to Hagee. While a re-write did happen,was mailed to Michael Brown, after reading it he says its nothing but 'cosmetic'...

It also seems Michael Brown has written a paper which is has held off releasing in hopes of Hagee repenting...but is now going to publish it.

You can read it here at the threshing floor (http://threshingfloor.onevoicemm.net/weblog/?p=942)--


Be on the look out guys, for Michael Brown's paper to be released..i have a 'hunch' its going to be powerful.

Hagee is not going to change his mis-guided views--nothing short of God Himself can get through to him...The man is operating in the spirit of antichrist.

gilgal
12-09-2007, 02:48 PM
We watched John Hagee live today....so his broadcasting is up and running. The show was current as it was the last sermon in a series he has been preaching on. I listened carefully. This was a 2nd coming sermon and of course was pre-trib, as one would expect of John Hagee. I tired to ignore that part. He did speak of Jesus coming the first time as a suffering servant/Messiah and the 2nd time HE will be a reigning Messiah. I realize this is on very thin ice taking into consideration I know the issue surrounding his latest scandalous book. But if I take just his statement I heard today, I can find no fault in those words. What he said was true..........BUT.....there is always that ..."but"....only God knows.

So, I guess we shall have to wait and see. I have nothing else to add to this...other than what I heard.

I'm so alienated by the protestant preachers in general that I'm beginning to see when a false doctrine ( or a debatable and unnecessary doctrine like the rapture is preached ). I feel like rolling my eyes and say, "Not again." Because they have a bad habit of repeating these things.

Hitler once said that if you repeat a lie long enough eventually the people will and up believing it. So that's what they're trying to do. No matter how many times it's been disproven they don't apologize for it. They continue preaching it. This is why I don't want to hear such preachers anymore even if they have some meat with the bones they give you. ( There 's a saying, "I eat the meat and throw away the bones". )

gilgal
12-09-2007, 02:50 PM
That' the problem with his teachings ... you can snese the underlying current of heresy, but he is usually careful to stop just short of actually stating it plainly. That's why his book is so valuable. It doesn't matter how he may "rewrite it" in the future, we now have a permanent record of his heresy. His only option is to totally come clean with a full heart-broken repentence and repudiation of his errors. Anything less means that he remains an apostate from the Christian faith.

Richard

Does he write his own books? Texe Marrs long ago had mentioned a few evengelicals like Biblly Graham and John Ankerberg have someone else write their books.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-09-2007, 03:10 PM
It appears this whole re-write of the chapter was some type of ploy on the part of Hagee or an appeasement. In my personal opinion it was a ploy to gender more controversy in hopes of more book sales... think so? And an appeasement, which doesn't appear to be working.

Randy Maugans from the Threshing Floor has been in touch with Michael Brown, who in turn had been talking to Hagee. While a re-write did happen,was mailed to Michael Brown, after reading it he says its nothing but 'cosmetic'...

It also seems Michael Brown has written a paper which is has held off releasing in hopes of Hagee repenting...but is now going to publish it.

You can read it here at the threshing floor (http://threshingfloor.onevoicemm.net/weblog/?p=942)--


Be on the look out guys, for Michael Brown's paper to be released..i have a 'hunch' its going to be powerful.

Hagee is not going to change his mis-guided views--nothing short of God Himself can get through to him...The man is operating in the spirit of antichrist.
Thanks pj - that's important info. I quote from that link:

As of Thursday afternoon, December 6, Dr. Brown had received the manuscript, flown in from Texas, reviewed the document, and concluded that the rewrite is 'not what was expected', terming it 'cosmetic'. According to the source at Michael Brown’s ministry, it is expected that Dr. Brown wil release his paper—Threshing Floor has requested a copy of the text, and to be updated on any further developments.
It might not be what Dr. Brown expected, but it's exactly what I expected. John Hagee is an obistinantly apostate antichrist heretic. Even in the face of countless evagelical and messianic Jewish leaders condemning his heresy, he persists. As I mentioned in a previous post, there can be no "rewrite." The ONLY option is for a broken down on his knees sobbing confession of his abject denial of Jesus Christ the Lord. Only then would he have any hope of rejecting his damnable heresy and rising vicrorious over the lies of the devil. But I don't expect that to happen because he has been preaching his heresy for over two decades. He is a loud, proud, and obstinant heretic. I see no reason God would want to save him at this point. It looks more like he remains alive only to serve in the role of Pharaoh, of whom God said:

Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Of course, Hagee in his pride thinks God has lifted him up to eminence because of all the good works he has done for the Jews. I'm sure he wil be very surprised when he finally realizes that God raised him up to reveal His Divine Judgment on his antichrist heresy.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
12-09-2007, 03:17 PM
Does he write his own books? Texe Marrs long ago had mentioned a few evengelicals like Biblly Graham and John Ankerberg have someone else write their books.
Good point. I doubt it. His books read like sermon notes. I've heard many lines from the book reproduced word for word in his sermons. He doesn't seem to have the ability anyway. I think he's just an actor - he knows how to huff and to puff and to thunder "Let there be praise in the house of the Lord!" But does he understand any of the words he utters? I don't think so, given the absolute braindead imbecilic assertiong that Jesus the Christ (= Messiah) was not the Messiah. That kind of moronism is simply ... well, there are no words for it. Its just too stupid to utter.

Richard

sula
12-20-2007, 11:13 AM
Is There Serious Error in the New Book, "In Defense of Israel?"

by Dr. Michael Brown


Pastor John Hagee’s new book, In Defense of Israel: The Bible’s Mandate for Supporting the Jewish State (Lake Mary, Florida: Front Line, 2007), was publicized by announcements stating that the book would 'shake Christian theology.' The following positions are explicitly laid out in the book:

The Jewish people, as a whole, did not reject Jesus as Messiah.

Jesus did not come to earth to be the Messiah.

Jesus refused by word and deed to be the Messiah.

The Jews cannot be blamed for not accepting what was never offered.
Statements like this must be evaluated in light of 1 John 2:22: 'Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ [i.e., Messiah]. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.' As commentator Stephen S. Smalley explained, 'The true believer is the one who accepts the Christhood of Jesus, whereas those who deny his messianic identity declare themselves to be on the side of the antichrist' (Word Biblical Commentary).

What could possibly be the motivation for teaching such error? First, In Defense of Israel desires to dispel once and for all the notion that all Jews are Christ-killers, a terrible lie that has fueled anti-Semitism in the Church for more than 1,500 years. Second, the book wants to refute the false teaching of replacement theology, explaining that, 'Replacement theologians have said that ‘the covenant with Israel was broken because she would not accept Jesus Christ whom God sent.’' (See p. 132 of In Defense of Israel.) Tragically, in the attempt to fight against these serious errors, a more serious error has now been introduced. Yet some believers and even leaders! are buying into this error hook, line, and sinker, and some have begun to teach and preach it as well.
Since the publication of the book, Pastor Hagee issued some clarifying remarks, but the clarifications only complicate the issues and fail to renounce and remove the error.

Here are three fundamental statements that all believers should be able to affirm without hesitation:

1) Jesus came to be the Messiah. This is the fundamental message of the New Testament, which is why we call him 'Christ' (meaning, 'Messiah'). And it is a fundamental message of the Scriptures that the Messiah had to suffer and die if He was one day to rule and reign (see, e.g., Luke 24:25-27, 44-47), a biblical truth that most of the Jewish people of Yeshua’s day missed, a biblical truth that most Jews through the ages have continued to miss, and a biblical truth that In Defense of Israel has now fed into as well.

In the clarifying statements that were made since the publication of his book, it was explained that Jesus came to be the suffering Messiah but not the reigning Messiah something, of course, that we all knew, and something that would hardly 'shake Christian theology' but these statements have simply introduced another nuance to the error, since nowhere in the New Testament is such a distinction made.

In other words, God did not say to Israel, 'It’s fine that you rejected Jesus as Messiah because He did not come in the political way you expected. He had to die in order to be the Savior of the world, so you are not guilty.' There is not a hint of such a message in the Scriptures, which simply proclaim him as the Messiah, period.

That’s why Jesus explicitly identified Himself as the Messiah in the Gospels (see, e.g., Matt 16:16-17; Mark 14:61-62; Luke 7:20-23; John 4:25-26; 5:39, 45-47; 10:24-25) not as the suffering Messiah, whom his people were supposed to reject so that He could die, as opposed to the reigning Messiah, whom they would one day receive, but simply as the Messiah and that’s why the Gospel authors frequently announced Him as the Messiah (in Greek, the Christ; see, e.g., Luke 2:11, 26; John 1:41; 3:28; 11:27; 20:31). And that’s why the apostles proclaimed Him as the Messiah in Acts (see, e.g., Acts 2:31, 36; 3:18, 20; 4:26; 5:42; 8:5; 9:22; 17:2-3; 18:5, 28; 26:23).

I would encourage you to look up every reference cited here. It is all quite simple, forthright, and easy to understand, and nowhere is any distinction made between the suffering and reigning Messiah. To repeat: Jesus is proclaimed as the Messiah of Israel, period, and because He is the Messiah of Israel, He is the Savior of the world.

2) The Jewish people rejected their Messiah. Although all Jews are not Christ-killers (God forbid!), and although the entire Jewish nation did not play a role in the crucifixion of Jesus, God held the Jewish people in Jesus’ day responsible for His death and, more significantly, He held them responsible for rejecting Jesus the Messiah after His resurrection. The New Testament witness is explicit and consistent on this.

That’s why the apostles preached to 'the people of Israel' that they were guilty of rejecting the Messiah (Acts 2:22-23, 36; 3:13-15, 17, 19; 4:10-11; 5:30; 7:52; 13:27-28; see also John 1:12), and that’s why Paul spoke of Israel’s hardening, breaking off, stumbling, transgression, and rejection (see Rom 9:31; 10:3; 11:7, 11-12, 15, 20 although with the full expectation of Israel’s future redemption; see Rom 11:11-15, 25-26). Again, I encourage you to take a moment to look up these passages. They are striking in their force and consistency.

Because of this rejection, severe judgment came on the Jewish people in the first century, as prophesied by Yeshua with tears (see Luke 19:41-44; see also Matt 23:29-37) and as taught in his parables (see, e.g., Matt 21:33-46; 22:1-14).

As painful as this witness is, it cannot be rewritten, nor can anyone lessen Israel’s guilt because it was God’s will that Jesus died on the cross. To the contrary, just as it was God’s will that Joseph be sold into Egyptian slavery and yet at the same time his brothers were guilty of sinning against him (Gen 44:16-45:5; 50:14-20), so also it was God’s will that Yeshua die for our sins while at the same time the Jewish people, along with Herod and Pilate and the Romans, were guilty of having Him crucified (see Acts 2:22-24; 4:27-28).

It is scripturally impossible to claim that 'the Jews cannot be blamed for not accepting what was never offered.' A glorious offer was made and refused, and that’s why Paul’s heart was broken (see Rom 9:1-5).

3) Jesus remains the Jewish Messiah, and there is no salvation for the Jewish people outside of faith in Him. Although Pastor Hagee has consistently stated that he does not teach 'dual covenant' theology, referring to the false concept that Jews can be saved outside of faith in Jesus, his new teaching certainly aids and abets that error. After all, if 'The Jews Did Not Reject Jesus as Messiah' (as stated in bold print in his book), and if 'Jesus refused by word and deed to be the Messiah' (be it the 'reigning Messiah' or not), then, not only can it be said that 'the Jews [in Jesus’ day] cannot be blamed for not accepting what was never offered' but that the Jews in any day cannot be blamed for not accepting Yeshua.

This again is a fundamental denial of the Word of God, and although In Defense of Israel claims that the 'message of the gospel was from Israel, not to Israel,' Jesus, Peter, and Paul declared that the message of the gospel was to Israel first, and then from Israel to the nations (see Luke 24:47; Acts 1:8; 3:26; 13:32-39; Rom 1:16; in Paul’s words to the Jewish leaders in Rome, it was 'for the sake of the hope of Israel' that he was bound in chains; Acts 28:20).

To be sure, there are a number of other errors found in the critical section of In Defense of Israel (including the myth that there was a so-called cup of the Messiah, the alleged fourth cup of the Passover meal that Yeshua supposedly refused to drink), but this is not the place to address those concerns, and to focus on the smaller problems would detract from the larger picture.

If you are not currently on our e-list, I would encourage you to sign up (http://www.revolutionnow.org/) today. And let’s continue to make the truth known: Yeshua is the Messiah of Israel, the King of the Jews, the Savior of the World!

In Him,

Michael L. Brown, Ph.D.

President, ICN Ministries (http://www.revolutionnow.org/)
and FIRE School of Ministry (http://www.fire-school.org/)
Director, Coalition of Conscience (http://www.coalitionofconscience.org/)
Host, Think It Thru TV (http://www.thinkitthru.tv/)

Trumpet
12-29-2007, 09:30 AM
Hi guys,

This is not an affirmation of the bible code, but I saw this and thought that I would pass it on.

Starting with the letter sequence of 13,817, (which looks to be prime, does anyone know if it is?), it says: A Pharisee is John Hagee. Then, it is intersected in Jeremiah by these words: He is very proud; his loftiness, and his pride, and his haughtiness, and the assumption of his heart. You can find this at: http://www.exodus2006.com/fab/hagee2.htm

Don

Richard Amiel McGough
12-29-2007, 10:46 AM
Hi guys,

This is not an affirmation of the bible code, but I saw this and thought that I would pass it on.

Starting with the letter sequence of 13,817, (which looks to be prime, does anyone know if it is?), it says: A Pharisee is John Hagee. Then, it is intersected in Jeremiah by these words: He is very proud; his loftiness, and his pride, and his haughtiness, and the assumption of his heart. You can find this at: http://www.exodus2006.com/fab/hagee2.htm

Don
And that only goes to show that "Bible Codes" can be made to say pretty much anything anyone wants them to say. Did you notice how they spelt his name?

Gimel Vav Nun (Gun? Gon?) which is supposed to be "John"? :lol: Did they forget that "John" is really just an Anglicized version of the Hebrew Yochanan? Why didn't they look for his real name in Hebrew? The correct spelling would be Yod Vav Chet Nun Nun, which is totally different. Man ... the state of Biblical studies these days ... no wonder Hagee is able to deceive the masses so easily.

For the most part, ELS Bible Codes are farce and disgrace to serious Bible study that turns Scripture into an occultic ouija board that can be used to say whatever the user wants it to say.

Richard

Trumpet
12-29-2007, 11:39 AM
Thanks Richard,

I wouldn't have known that. It's good to have you here with your understanding of these languages. It helps keep us in line. Me too!

Don

Richard Amiel McGough
12-29-2007, 01:41 PM
Thanks Richard,

I wouldn't have known that. It's good to have you here with your understanding of these languages. It helps keep us in line. Me too!

Don
And you help keep me in line! I will never be able to express how much you and our other friends have taught me.

God bless everyone on this forum.

Rchard

Richard Amiel McGough
12-29-2007, 04:14 PM
I just received this email that was sent to two other folks. Here is is in its entirety (with comments interspersed, and red highlights added):



Pastor John Hagee
John Hagee Ministries
P.O. Box 1400
San Antonio, TX 78295-1400

Eddie Chumney
Hebraic Heritage Ministries International
P.O. Box 81
Strasburg, Ohio 44680

Al Cooper
God's Learning Channel
12706 W. Highway 80 East
Odessa, TX 79765

First of all, to the three of you, I want to say that John Hagee is a man of honor, integrity, and above all, not only a lover of the Jewish Messiah, Jesus Christ, but a lover of Israel and the blood brethren of Jesus. There isn't another Christian minister who better understands the true and correct relationship of Jesus to the Jewish people as their Messiah.

Having said that, let me say to John Hagee, what in the world possessed you to use the word "Messiah" in such a controversial way in your book, In Defense of Israel? Why would you wish to stir up such a hornet's nest? I know without a doubt that you know without a doubt that Jesus did come into the world as Messiah to the Jews first and also to the Gentiles. In addition to attacks upon your rhetoric from every direction, just listen as an example to what Richard Amiel McGough of "The Bible Wheel" has posted:


"In his book In Defense of Israel (2007), beginning in the section called "The Jews did
not Reject Jesus as Messiah" (p. 132) John Hagee relentlessly twisted Scripture in his attempt to
prove that Jesus Christ did not come 'to be Messiah to the Jews.' His denial of Jesus as the Christ
(Messiah) cannot be overlooked as a mere 'slip of his pen' because he repeated his assertion
'seven ways from Sunday' as seen in this sample of seven quotes from his book:"

1. McGough quote: "If God intended for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel, why didn't he authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God's Messiah, just as Moses had done? (p. 137)"

What Hagee was obviously saying is: "If God intended for Jesus to be the [deliverer of the Jews from Rome at that time], why didn't He authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove He was God's [deliverer from Rome], just as Moses had done ?" So, John, why didn't you simply say it that way?"

The reason John Hagee did not say it that way is because then it would not support his false thesis that the Jews didn't reject Jesus as Messiah. If he said that the Jews didn't reject Jesus as a conqueror over Rome, then the whole Christian world would have responded with a resounding DUH! ... and then would have wondered if Hagee had recently suffered some debilating brain damage.

I explained this in post 22 (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2930&postcount=22) of this thread. When John Hagee set up his argument, he implied that the Jews could not be blamed for rejecting Jesus as the Messiah in the CHRISTIAN sense of the word, but then he silently switched the definition of Messiah to mean "victorious warrior against Rome" throughout the rest of his argument. There is no way to excuse such a wilfull deception. The mystery here is how could Hagee have thought to pull it off? Why didn't any of his staff correct him?


2. McGough quote: "Jesus refused to produce a sign .. because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be Messiah. (p 138)"

This quote by McGough is taken out of context by combining two unrelated clauses separated by four paragraphs which gives the remark an implication that is entirely erroneous. If Hagee had made such a statement, it certainly would have been in the following context: "Jesus refused to produce a sign ... because it was not the Father's will, nor His, to be [the deliverer of the Jews from Rome]."

Now that is one facinating false accusation! The quote I took was from a SINGLE SENTENCE! Here is it in full, with the parts represented by the elipsis (...) in my original quote here included between square brackets:

Exact quote form page 138 of Hagee's book: Jesus refused to produce a sign [for the national leadership of Israel in an attempt to prove that he was the Messiah] because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be Messiah.

I am guessing that Mr. May was so desperate to find "errors" in my review that he wasn't careful to check his work. How he could have "accidentally" gotten "four paragraphs" from a single sentence is anyone's guess. But whatever the reason, his statement is obviously false, as anyone can check for themselves. But what is very odd is why Mr. May made up a statement not found in Hagee's book rather than simply quoting the actual text on page 138. It looks like he has not even read Hagee's book!


3. Another McGough quote deliberately taken out of context: "If Jesus wanted to be Messiah, why did he repeatedly tell his disciples and followers to "tell no one" about his supernatural accomplishments? (p. 139)"

Hagee's intention: "If Jesus wanted to be [the deliverer of the Jews from Rome], why did He repeatedly tell His disciples and followers to 'tell no one' about His supernatural accomplishments?"

It always amazes me the freedom Hagee's defenders feel to put words in his mouth! Hagee had a whole book in which to express his "intentions." Let's just stick to what he actually wrote.


In fact, Hagee went on to state in context: "Think about it! If the man [Jesus] were trying to gain national attention to rally the support of the general public for the overthrow of mighty Rome, he would not go around the country saying, 'Tell no one!' "

Yes, and that is the fundamental error of Hagee's argument. The Bible says nothing about Jesus the Messiah coming as a "warrior Messiah" to smash Rome. Hagee is supposedly a Bible teacher. He knew what all his readers would think "Messiah" meant. And if he meant something "other" than Messiah in the Christian sense, then it was his sacred duty to explain himself. But he couldn't do that, because if he had plainly said what he meant, everyone would have known his argument was absurd.


4. McGough quote: "The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews. (p. 140)"

"The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as [the deliverer of themselves from Rome]; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the [secular deliverer] to the Jews."

Here Mr. May is attempting to correct Hagee's errors by adding words. And again, I must point Mr. May to the statements that Hagee made at the beginnig of his arugument (from Post 22 of this thread):

=================================================
From In Defense of Israel, page 132 (formatted as in the original):
=================================================

The Jews Did not Reject Jesus as Messiah

Most evangelicals believe the Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah and therefore qualify for God's eternal judgment. Replacement theologians have said that "the covenant with Israel was broken because she would not accept Jesus Christ whom God sent." (6)

Is this statement about the Jewish people biblically true? No! In order to respond to this misstatement about the Jews, several questions must be answered:

=================================================
End quote
=================================================

In the first sentence, Hagee asserts that "Most evangelicals believe the Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah." This means that "Messiah" here must be taken in the "evangelical" or "Christian" sense, or the sentence would be false. The same sense is implied in the quote concerning "Jesus Christ whom God sent." I will refer to this "Messiah" as the Biblical Messiah.

Hagee then asserted that "this statement" is false. What statement? The statement that the Jews rejected Jesus as the [I]Biblical Messiah! But what then does Hagee argue throughout the next dozen pages? He argued that the Jews did not reject Jesus as the Political Messiah! This is PURE MADNESS. Hagee's argument is logically incoherent. Technically, he based his entire thesis on the deliberately deceptive tactic known as an equivocation (http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/skepticism/blfaq_fall_equivocation.htm), meaning that he used the word "Messiah" with two different meanings in the same argument. He posed the question: "Did the Jews reject Jesus as the Biblical Messiah?" and then set about to prove that they did not reject Him as a Political Messiah. In layman's terms, Hagee pulled a "bait and switch" on his readers. The gravity of this sin is evident in the fact that he has deceived so many people.

It is a mystery how Hagee thought he could foist such an obvious deception upon the Christiain communit, but it is even more mysterious that so many people have failed to see his deception even after having it pointed out to them!


5. Another McGough quote deliberately taken out of context: "They wanted him to be their Messiah, but he flatly refused. (p. 141)"

"They wanted Him to be their [political deliverer], but he flatly refused." In the sentence preceding that statement, Hagee said, "Even after his resurrection and his repeated denials that he would not be the Messiah, his disciples were still hanging on to the last thread of hope that he would now smash Rome (Acts 1:6).

Again, the error lies entirely with Hagee because he is the one who switched the meaning of Messiah from the Biblical definition to a false and unbiblical idea of an "annointed conqueror" after deliberately deceiving his readers by setting up his argument using the Biblical definition.

When I was writing my review, I wondered if I should try to "explain" what Hagee was "really thinking" like Mr. May is doing, but then decided against that in favor of letting Hagee's own words speak for themselves. In his advertisements for his book, Hagee explicitly denied that Jesus Christ came to be Messiah without any further explanation as to what he "really meant." He said his book would "shake the foundations of Chrisitian theology." Obviously, I can not be blamed for not stating what Hagee himself refused to state!


6. McGough quote: "He refused to be their Messiah, choosing instead to be the Savior of the world. (p. 143)"

"He refused to be their [deliverer], choosing instead to be the Savior of the world."

The BIBLE does not teach that there is a distinction between Jesus as Messiah and Jesus as Savior. Mr. Mays point fails.


7. McGough quote: "Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of Messiah in word or deed. (p. 145)"

"Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of [deliverer] in word and deed."

Again, that's not what Hagee said. He set up his argument to prove that the Jews could not be blamed for rejecting Christ as MESSIAH.


According to Richard McGough, "John Hagee's words directly contradict the central message of the entire New Testament. Indeed, John Hagee's words directly contradict the fundamental declaration that defines the Christian Faith, which is that Jesus is the Messiah (i.e. the Christ)."

Unfortunately, John's choice of semantics and terms can give the impression expressed by McGough to a weak believer who understands little of Hagee's ministry to the Jews. In fact, Hagee is under tremendous attack by the Messianic community because he resists proselytizing. I
was, myself, summarily removed from a Messianic ministry by its authoritarian leadership because of my support for Hagee's ministry. But, just as unfortunate, there are those leaders in the Christian world who have jumped on the old "let's shoot the wounded Christian" bandwagon.
These leaders look for every opportunity to pounce on other Christian leaders, especially those who are the most successful in fulfilling their calling by God. Even the Apostle's had their "Christian" enemies! How many weak Christians have I heard make disparaging statements - even false ones - about Pat Robertson, Bennie Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, John Hagee, Thurman Scrivner, and others of their Spiritual stature.

Al, I have included you in this letter because I listened to Eddie Chumney on your GLC a few nights ago attacking John Hagee and his book, In Defense of Israel. Chumney didn't mention Hagee by name, but every person aware of the ongoing controversy over Hagee's unfortunate
choice of words knew exactly who Chumney was censuring. I heard you say that you had not heard of the dispute and didn't want to know who the principal was. But, Al, when you lend your blessed and wonderful ministry as a platform for such gossipy diatribe as I heard from Chumney,
you do need to know who your guests are lambasting as well as discovering the truth of the matter. For example, give someone like Thurman Scrivner, a man whom you know well, an opportunity to discuss the qualifications of a fellow minister. If he has anything to say about
them, I guarantee it will all be positive.

Eddie, I can't believe that a man of your knowledge, training, experience, wisdom, literacy, and comprehension would not immediately understand exactly what John Hagee intended. That makes your gossipy accusations all the more inexcusable. Instead of attacking Hagee for his error in semantics, you should have been supporting him with proper illustrations
as I have done in this letter. Then, instead of turning weaker Christian listeners against John and his ministry, you would have helped them understand the truth.

In His Service,

Joseph D. May

Copy to:
MCgough
The bible Wheel

The problem had nothing to do with "a poor choice of words" - the problem was his false teaching that says Christ did not come to be Messiah to the Jews. His problem is his assertion that the Jews didn't reject Jesus as Messiah. If it was a simple misunderstanding, why has Hagee not cleared it up? Take a look at Post 67 (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3560&postcount=67) earlier in this thread.

John Hagee totally twisted Scritpure into a completely heretical mess when he tried to get his Jewish "friends" off the Gospel hook.


Richard Amiel McGough

Richard Amiel McGough
12-29-2007, 05:48 PM
Hey folks,

I moved my conversation with Gilgal over to the Olivet Discourse (round II) thread since that is where it was heading.

RAM (as Administrator)

Richard Amiel McGough
12-29-2007, 06:16 PM
As I was jogging I realized I let a gross errror in May's criticism pass without comment. So here is what he wrote and my response:


5. Another McGough quote deliberately taken out of context: "They wanted him to be their Messiah, but he flatly refused. (p. 141)"

"They wanted Him to be their [political deliverer], but he flatly refused." In the sentence preceding that statement, Hagee said, "Even after his resurrection and his repeated denials that he would not be the Messiah, his disciples were still hanging on to the last thread of hope that he would now smash Rome (Acts 1:6).

If anything was deliberate, it was Joseph May's blatant lie that the quote was "taken out of context." Here is the excerpt from my review (http://www.biblewheel.com/RR/Hagee_Defense_of_Israel.asp), where I gave the full context from Hagee's book, and also discussed his erroneous understanding of the Messiah as a political redeemer (red highlights added):




When Jesus went on trial, Herod "had desired for a long time to see Him...and he hoped to see some miracle [sign] done by Him" (Luke 23:8). Jesus refused to produce a sign for the national leadership of Israel in an attempt to prove he was the Messiah because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be the Messiah. Jesus's repeated response to the Jewish people who urged him to be their Messiah was, "My kindgom is not of this world" (John 18:36)

This sheds some light on the source of Hagee's error. It seems he has wholeheartedly adopted the unbiblical definition of the Messiah promoted by the unbelieving Jews who deny Christ on the pretext that He failed to defeat the Romans and set up an earthly ethnic kingom on some dusty Middle East real estate. Thus Hagee rejects Jesus as the Christ because His Kingdom "is not of this world." This is confirmed on page 139 (emphasis added):


If Jesus wanted to be Messiah, why did he repeatedly tell his disciples and followers to "tell no one" about his supernatural accomplishments? Think about it! If the man were trying to gain national attention to rally the support of the general public for the overthrow of mighty Rome, he would not go around the country saying "Tell no one!"
So there it is. Though he never explicitly stated his definition, Hagee used the word "Messiah" to designate nothing but a conquering Jew who would "smash Rome" and "usher in an era of universal peace" (p. 141). Since Jesus did not come to do this, He was "not the Messiah" by Hagee's heretical definition. Thus the Jews are completely exonerated for rejecting Christ, for indeed, "The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews" (p. 140).

So there it is. Joseph D. May flat out lied about my review. I did not take the quote out of context, and I did not ignore Hagee's "intent" concerning his redefinition of the Messiah as a political deliverer.

Richard

Trumpet
12-29-2007, 10:24 PM
Hi Richard,

The work done by even the shinyest of shovels is to dig a hole. And if you try to water it down, it gets slippery.:nono:

The resolution of this comes with repentance, and I haven't seen any repentance coming out of San Antonio.:confused2::pray:

You did an honorable, honest work, and the best part is, you have the evidence. :thumb:

God Bless Don

kady
04-06-2008, 06:35 PM
This was bound to happen sooner or later...the evangelical movement is beginning to reveal itself as the tares which were spoken of in the gospels. Everywhere around us, their leaders are falling away, corrupt by the wealth they have collected from their unseeing congregations. The blind has led the blind, and they are all falling into the ditch. But any serious student of the gospel should have seen this coming. The pop gospel bears some resemblance to the truth, but it has proven to be a cocktail of a little of the truth shaken and stirred with a whole lot of deception. Hagee has now set himself up as God, he feels powerful enough to refute the Word and preach as he sees fit. And a mass is following him. Those who are too lazy to read for themselves, or who just want to have their ears tickled, have followed this pied piper and many others like him.

That woman with the cup of apostasy in her hand, decked in scarlet and purple, is so easily identified!

gilgal
04-06-2008, 07:24 PM
This was bound to happen sooner or later...the evangelical movement is beginning to reveal itself as the tares which were spoken of in the gospels. Everywhere around us, their leaders are falling away, corrupt by the wealth they have collected from their unseeing congregations. The blind has led the blind, and they are all falling into the ditch. But any serious student of the gospel should have seen this coming. The pop gospel bears some resemblance to the truth, but it has proven to be a cocktail of a little of the truth shaken and stirred with a whole lot of deception. Hagee has now set himself up as God, he feels powerful enough to refute the Word and preach as he sees fit. And a mass is following him. Those who are too lazy to read for themselves, or who just want to have their ears tickled, have followed this pied piper and many others like him.

That woman with the cup of apostasy in her hand, decked in scarlet and purple, is so easily identified!

I feel sad because Hagee did a video when he was in Israel about the symbolism of the Tabernacle and its' objects. These preachers seem to have quite a bit of understanding to leave you with awe, yet they lead people astray!

Now supposed I popped in a video of Hagee to an Arab or someone from the middle east. How would they feel when they know that this guy takes Israel's side all the time?

Voktar
04-11-2008, 01:42 PM
I must confess that I am a newbie and haven't had time to read the entire thread yet. I am compelled to make this comment though.
I am a little confused :confused2: as to why people are so shocked :eek: by Hagee's conclusion that Jesus was not the Messiah.
Is this not the logical conclusion of extreme "dispensationalism"? So many Christians are unaware of the fact that this theological construct is a relatively recent innovation to Christian theology having nothing to do with Biblical orthodoxy or sound Bible interpretation.
Unfortunately it has been swallowed hook-line-and sinker by contemporary evangelical and pentecostal Christians as though it has always been the truely orthodox understanding of the Christian faith.
If you really research its roots you will find bizarre interpretations (for example the four gospels not being written for Christians etc.) based on a racist understanding of the gospel. Two plans of salvation based upon a racial/biological understanding of scripture rather than a spiritual one.
John Hagee is only taking this heretical system of Bible interpretation to its logical conclusion.
And Oh, by the way, if orthodox Judaism is where our focus should be then John Hagee should be looking at New York City - I think there are actually more Orthodox there than in Israel!
If on the other hand a biological claim to Judaism is what matters, then the vast majority of Jewish people are out of the equation - having only a claim to mass Ashkenazim conversions.
Besides there never has been such a thing as a Jewish race - only a human race - divided into believers or unbelivers in the true God.
If the physical decendents of physical Israel must re-institute the temple sacrifices (even though the Bible says that the Israelites of the flesh are not the children of God and that the unbelieving Israelites have been broken off from the singular olive tree of the true faith who's root is Jesus) - then this would constitute a blasphemous enterprise of the highest order, since Jesus died once for all.
If Jesus did not come as Messiah to the Jewish people then why shouldn't they re-constitute the sacrificial system?
It is not only John Hagee's ministry that should be condemned as heretical, but the entire system of dispensationalism upon which it stands.

Richard Amiel McGough
04-11-2008, 07:56 PM
Hi Voktar,

Welcome to our forum!

:welcome:


I must confess that I am a newbie and haven't had time to read the entire thread yet. I am compelled to make this comment though.

I am a little confused :confused2: as to why people are so shocked :eek: by Hagee's conclusion that Jesus was not the Messiah.
Is this not the logical conclusion of extreme "dispensationalism"? So many Christians are unaware of the fact that this theological construct is a relatively recent innovation to Christian theology having nothing to do with Biblical orthodoxy or sound Bible interpretation.
Unfortunately it has been swallowed hook-line-and sinker by contemporary evangelical and pentecostal Christians as though it has always been the truely orthodox understanding of the Christian faith.
If you really research its roots you will find bizarre interpretations (for example the four gospels not being written for Christians etc.) based on a racist understanding of the gospel. Two plans of salvation based upon a racial/biological understanding of scripture rather than a spiritual one.
John Hagee is only taking this heretical system of Bible interpretation to its logical conclusion.

It's sad but true. The "dispensational" teachings have pretty much been taken for granted by "pop" Christianity. I think it is largely because authors like Hal Lindsey trumpeted the formation of the modern secular state of Israel as the supposed fulfillment of prophecies about Biblical Israel. So many felt justified to start DATE SETTING year after year. It didn't matter that they were always wrong. The date setting continues, even to this day. There was a flourish of excitement last year because it was the 60th aniversary since 1948. But as these years go by, it is finally becoming self-evident that the initial claims that the so-called "rebirth" of Israel gives no real support for the dispensational doctrines.

The real problem with dispensational doctrines is that they are based on little more than bits and pieces of Bible verses taken out of context and connected with a web of groundless speculations.


And Oh, by the way, if orthodox Judaism is where our focus should be then John Hagee should be looking at New York City - I think there are actually more Orthodox there than in Israel!

Ha! :lol: That is funny. And it reminds me that Hagee ignores and minimizes Christian Jews (the Messianics) in favor of pandering to the "real Jews" - that is, the unbelievers! Its an amazing perversion of the Gospel. But after reading Hagee's responses to criticism, I am getting the idea that he really doesn't understand the first thing about the Bible. So in that sense, I can't "blame" him for being so far off-base with his understanding of the Jews.



If on the other hand a biological claim to Judaism is what matters, then the vast majority of Jewish people are out of the equation - having only a claim to mass Ashkenazim conversions.

That's interesting. I didn't know there was a mass conversion. I usually look at things the other way around. If genetics is what matters, then everyone is a "son of Abraham" because of the way that population dynamics works. Everyone is related to everone else. The Jews have been mixing with Gentiles for long enough now so almost everyone has at least one or two Jewish ancestors somewhere in the geneology.


Besides there never has been such a thing as a Jewish race - only a human race - divided into believers or unbelivers in the true God.
If the physical decendents of physical Israel must re-institute the temple sacrifices (even though the Bible says that the Israelites of the flesh are not the children of God and that the unbelieving Israelites have been broken off from the singular olive tree of the true faith who's root is Jesus) - then this would constitute a blasphemous enterprise of the highest order, since Jesus died once for all.

Amen! I could not agree more. The carnal aspect was a TYPE of what was to come. The Bible declares that only believers in Jesus Christ are counted as the "seed" of Abraham. It has absolutely nothing to do with carnal genealogies.



If Jesus did not come as Messiah to the Jewish people then why shouldn't they re-constitute the sacrificial system?
It is not only John Hagee's ministry that should be condemned as heretical, but the entire system of dispensationalism upon which it stands.
Well, I am inclined to agree, but I think we need to distinguish between heresy and hermeneutical error. I think of heresy as something that explicitly denies the faith, as when Hagee denied that Christ came to be Messiah. For the most part, dispensationalism is just a bunch of really bad biblical interpretations. But that is not to be minimized because it leads directly to heresies like Hagee's.

It sounds like you might have a lot to offer over in our eschatology forum. A lot of dicussion is centered on who is "Israel" and how "Israel" relates to the Church.

Again, welcome to our forum Voktar.

Richard

Voktar
04-12-2008, 04:16 AM
Very impressed by your reply Richard. Thank you for taking the time to respond to this newbie. I hope to to be able to participate more here at the Bible Wheel.
Again, thanks for the welcome,
Victor