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Didymus
04-22-2011, 08:11 AM
The economic system of the body of Christ is communism.

Scripture quotes come from the ESV.

Acts 2:44,45 states, "And all who belived were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need."

Acts 4:32,34 states, "Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as as any had need."

And you probably thought, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need," started with Karl Marx. I don't know if it started with the church, but it is documented here, long before Karl Marx. And you, as well as I were taught the Karl Marx was wrong. The only thing he was wrong about was who should administer the redistribution of wealth. He thought it should be the government. In the early church, it was the apostles. Eventually, deacons would do this.

The principle goal of early Christians was the edification (bulding up) of the body of Christ. There were no individual rights. Everything was done for edification.

Romans 14:19 states, "So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding." Get that! Mutual upbuilding or edification. The buliding up of one another. This is what the early church did, and this is what they were told to do.

Romans 15:1,2 states, "We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up." "Build him up," or edify him.

I Corinthians 14:12, "So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church." Building up, or edification of the church.

I Corinthians 14:26, "What then, When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up." Once again, building up, or edification.

I Thessalonians 5:11, "Therefore encourage one another, and build up one another, just as you are doing." Again, build up one another.

You can also read Ephesians 4:1-16.

So, scripture teaches, by doctrine and example, that Christians are to have all things in common, and that all things should be done for the building up or the edification of body of Christ.

We have no individual rights in the church. We are a community of believers. How is this established?

Acts 20:28 states, "Pay carefull attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which He obtained with His own blood." Jesus obtained or purchased the church of God with His blood. That means He has ownership of the church. So, we who are in the church, belong to Him. And, since we are purchased equally, that is, He paid a common price for each of us, we have common value. None of us are more or less important than another. That is how it is established that we have all things in common. For we are commonly owned by Him who purchased us with His blood.

This was acted out in all ways by the earliest Christians, including economically, as we have seen in Acts 2 and 4.

But we are Americans. We don't believe this. We believe in individual rights. We believe the poor should pick themselves up by their own boot straps. That those who do not have a job do not deserve our help. We certainly should not help those who are suffering due to their own failings. This is the conservative view. I here it on conservative talk radio all the time. But this should not be the Christian view. Yet, the so called "religious right," mirrors this conservative view. They condemn those who agree with the concept of the redistribution of wealth. They fear what they perceive as communism.

Would you believe that Jesus taught the redistribution of wealth as a condition to inherit eternal life? Read Luke 18:18ff.

This is the story of the rich ruler. The ruler came to Jesus and aked Him what he must do to inherit eternal life. Jesus asked him about the commandments, which the ruler said that he kept them all his life. Then Jesus said, "One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come follow me."

The early Christians did just that, as we see in Acts 2 and 4. So, why isn't this being practiced by the church today? Is it more important to build satellite TV networks? Is it more important to build multi-million dollar church buildings? Is it more important to have a new car every year? Is it more important to keep up with the latest fashions? And, I could go on and on. We are comfort creatures. Many care more about their own creature comforts, than they do the needs of others.

Philippians 2:4 states, "Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others." As Christians we must concern ourselves with the interests of others. We must help those who can not help themselves. For we in Christ are part of each other, as we have been prchased by the same blood.

I realize the term "Christian Communism" might raise some eyebrows, and maybe anger some folks. Maybe it would be better to change the name of this article to, "Christian Communion." But what would be the difference be? The words communism, communion, communication and community all have the same root word - "commune." They suggest a common union where people have all things in common.

Now, it's your turn


:ranger:

Richard Amiel McGough
04-22-2011, 09:28 AM
The economic system of the body of Christ is communism.

...

I realize the term "Christian Communism" might raise some eyebrows, and maybe anger some folks. Maybe it would be better to change the name of this article to, "Christian Communion." But what would be the difference be? The words communism, communion, communication and community all have the same root word - "commune." They suggest a common union where people have all things in common.

Now, it's your turn


Great post! :thumb:

I agree completely. Raised eyebrows often reflect raised consciousness. Your point is particularly poignant in light of the modern right-wing conservative party that has cloaked itself in the form of "evangelical Christianity" to force all the weak minded sheep to think they have to vote Republican or deny Jesus.

Rose
04-22-2011, 10:22 AM
Would you believe that Jesus taught the redistribution of wealth as a condition to inherit eternal life? Read Luke 18:18ff.

This is the story of the rich ruler. The ruler came to Jesus and aked Him what he must do to inherit eternal life. Jesus asked him about the commandments, which the ruler said that he kept them all his life. Then Jesus said, "One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come follow me."

The early Christians did just that, as we see in Acts 2 and 4. So, why isn't this being practiced by the church today? Is it more important to build satellite TV networks? Is it more important to build multi-million dollar church buildings? Is it more important to have a new car every year? Is it more important to keep up with the latest fashions? And, I could go on and on. We are comfort creatures. Many care more about their own creature comforts, than they do the needs of others.

Philippians 2:4 states, "Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others." As Christians we must concern ourselves with the interests of others. We must help those who can not help themselves. For we in Christ are part of each other, as we have been prchased by the same blood.

I realize the term "Christian Communism" might raise some eyebrows, and maybe anger some folks. Maybe it would be better to change the name of this article to, "Christian Communion." But what would be the difference be? The words communism, communion, communication and community all have the same root word - "commune." They suggest a common union where people have all things in common.

Now, it's your turn


:ranger:


Hi Didymus,

I think we can have it both ways, we can be individuals while still being part of the whole. There is no need to redistribute material wealth...those who have more can be free to enjoy their wealth, and still share with others and be a part of the universal community. Material goods don't have to be equally distributed in order for everyone to be living up to their full potential and enjoying the life they've been given. It's all a matter of each individual following the Golden Rule, "treat others as you wish to be treated".

The idea of being a universal community should not just pertain to those who call themselves Christians, but rather to all who consider themselves to be part of the human race.

All the Best,
Rose

Brother Les
04-22-2011, 10:47 AM
Didymus
The economic system of the body of Christ is communism.

Scripture quotes come from the ESV.

Acts 2:44,45 states, "And all who belived were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need."

Acts 4:32,34 states, "Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as as any had need."

And you probably thought, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need," started with Karl Marx. I don't know if it started with the church, but it is documented here, long before Karl Marx. And you, as well as I were taught the Karl Marx was wrong. The only thing he was wrong about was who should administer the redistribution of wealth. He thought it should be the government. In the early church, it was the apostles. Eventually, deacons would do this.

There are several things to not over look. It was against the Law to sell Land with in the Mosaic Cultus without the understanding that the Seller or his family would get the Land Back. These people were most likely selling their property to people who were not of 'the Sect of The Way', but outside of that Sect. There is no indication that the land would be redeemed to any of these people. They knew that they would Never come back to that land, so it was good to get rid of it and buy useful items for the Sect in order to be readfy to flee Judea and Jerusalem. We must also look at later in Pauls writtings that Paul was asking the Gentiles to help their 'brothers in Christ' with money in order to survive the tribulations that the Sect of The Way was going through. It was Capitalism that kept the Jerusalem Sect going... not communism.

Didymus
04-22-2011, 11:08 AM
Hi Didymus,

I think we can have it both ways, we can be individuals while still being part of the whole. There is no need to redistribute material wealth...those who have more can be free to enjoy their wealth, and still share with others and be a part of the universal community. Material goods don't have to be equally distributed in order for everyone to be living up to their full potential and enjoying the life they've been given. It's all a matter of each individual following the Golden Rule, "treat others as you wish to be treated".

The idea of being a universal community should not just pertain to those who call themselves Christians, but rather to all who consider themselves to be part of the human race.

All the Best,
Rose

When you take an individual drop of water, and drop it in the Pacific ocean, does it maintain it's individuality? Can you ever find that drop again? So it is in Christ. I am, of course, speaking spiritually. Just as the drop of water forms an indistinguishable bond with the rest of the ocean, so it is in Christ.

And since Christians have nothing in common with unbelievers, II Corinthians 6.14ff, this can only pertain to those in Christ.

:ranger:

Didymus
04-22-2011, 11:14 AM
There are several things to not over look. It was against the Law to sell Land with in the Mosaic Cultus without the understanding that the Seller or his family would get the Land Back. These people were most likely selling their property to people who were not of 'the Sect of The Way', but outside of that Sect. There is no indication that the land would be redeemed to any of these people. They knew that they would Never come back to that land, so it was good to get rid of it and buy useful items for the Sect in order to be readfy to flee Judea and Jerusalem. We must also look at later in Pauls writtings that Paul was asking the Gentiles to help their 'brothers in Christ' with money in order to survive the tribulations that the Sect of The Way was going through. It was Capitalism that kept the Jerusalem Sect going... not communism.

The only thing I disagree with is that the earliest Christians were capitalists. There is no Scriptural evidence of that.

:ranger:

Clifford
05-01-2011, 04:42 AM
The economic system of the body of Christ is communism.

Scripture quotes come from the ESV.

Acts 2:44,45 states, "And all who belived were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need."

Acts 4:32,34 states, "Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as as any had need."

And you probably thought, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need," started with Karl Marx. I don't know if it started with the church, but it is documented here, long before Karl Marx. And you, as well as I were taught the Karl Marx was wrong. The only thing he was wrong about was who should administer the redistribution of wealth. He thought it should be the government. In the early church, it was the apostles. Eventually, deacons would do this.

The principle goal of early Christians was the edification (bulding up) of the body of Christ. There were no individual rights. Everything was done for edification.

Romans 14:19 states, "So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding." Get that! Mutual upbuilding or edification. The buliding up of one another. This is what the early church did, and this is what they were told to do.

Romans 15:1,2 states, "We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up." "Build him up," or edify him.

I Corinthians 14:12, "So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church." Building up, or edification of the church.

I Corinthians 14:26, "What then, When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up." Once again, building up, or edification.

I Thessalonians 5:11, "Therefore encourage one another, and build up one another, just as you are doing." Again, build up one another.

You can also read Ephesians 4:1-16.

So, scripture teaches, by doctrine and example, that Christians are to have all things in common, and that all things should be done for the building up or the edification of body of Christ.

We have no individual rights in the church. We are a community of believers. How is this established?

Acts 20:28 states, "Pay carefull attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which He obtained with His own blood." Jesus obtained or purchased the church of God with His blood. That means He has ownership of the church. So, we who are in the church, belong to Him. And, since we are purchased equally, that is, He paid a common price for each of us, we have common value. None of us are more or less important than another. That is how it is established that we have all things in common. For we are commonly owned by Him who purchased us with His blood.

This was acted out in all ways by the earliest Christians, including economically, as we have seen in Acts 2 and 4.

But we are Americans. We don't believe this. We believe in individual rights. We believe the poor should pick themselves up by their own boot straps. That those who do not have a job do not deserve our help. We certainly should not help those who are suffering due to their own failings. This is the conservative view. I here it on conservative talk radio all the time. But this should not be the Christian view. Yet, the so called "religious right," mirrors this conservative view. They condemn those who agree with the concept of the redistribution of wealth. They fear what they perceive as communism.

Would you believe that Jesus taught the redistribution of wealth as a condition to inherit eternal life? Read Luke 18:18ff.

This is the story of the rich ruler. The ruler came to Jesus and aked Him what he must do to inherit eternal life. Jesus asked him about the commandments, which the ruler said that he kept them all his life. Then Jesus said, "One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come follow me."

The early Christians did just that, as we see in Acts 2 and 4. So, why isn't this being practiced by the church today? Is it more important to build satellite TV networks? Is it more important to build multi-million dollar church buildings? Is it more important to have a new car every year? Is it more important to keep up with the latest fashions? And, I could go on and on. We are comfort creatures. Many care more about their own creature comforts, than they do the needs of others.

Philippians 2:4 states, "Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others." As Christians we must concern ourselves with the interests of others. We must help those who can not help themselves. For we in Christ are part of each other, as we have been prchased by the same blood.

I realize the term "Christian Communism" might raise some eyebrows, and maybe anger some folks. Maybe it would be better to change the name of this article to, "Christian Communion." But what would be the difference be? The words communism, communion, communication and community all have the same root word - "commune." They suggest a common union where people have all things in common.

Now, it's your turn


:ranger:


The economic system of the body of Christ is communism.

Scripture quotes come from the ESV.

Acts 2:44,45 states, "And all who belived were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need."

Acts 4:32,34 states, "Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as as any had need."

And you probably thought, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need," started with Karl Marx. I don't know if it started with the church, but it is documented here, long before Karl Marx. And you, as well as I were taught the Karl Marx was wrong. The only thing he was wrong about was who should administer the redistribution of wealth. He thought it should be the government. In the early church, it was the apostles. Eventually, deacons would do this.


The question that we need to ask is whether what the Church did in Acts 2 was a model for the Church to follow thereafter or was it something they did because of the peculiar historical circumstances of that time.

I submit that it was done because of the peculiar historical circumstances that they were living in. God knew it would not be long before persecution would break out and many of them would be forced to flee and have their property confiscated. So it made sense for them to sell their lands and houses and use the money from those sales to help the Church rather than to have their lands and houses confiscated. I don't see anywhere else in the NT where this was taught or practiced so I don't think it is a principle that we need to follow.

Everywhere communism has been practiced it has been a failure and has impoverished the people who were living under it. A stark example of that would be what used to be East and West Germany. One was communist and the other capitalist. Communism made East Germany an improvised country while capitalist West Germany was prosperous. Same people, same culture. The only difference was the type of economic system they were under.

Another example would be in the Soviet Union in the 1930s when Stalin collectivized agriculture and made family farms into communal farms. The result? Crop yields plummeted and some people starved. The same thing happened in China under Mao.

Did you also know that the early Pilgrims tried communal living in Jamestown? It was such a colossal failure that they were on the brink of starvation before they abandoned it. Once each family was given a plot of ground to take care of and raise crops for themselves then everybody had enough.

So why would you think that God would endorse a system that is a huge failure? Well he doesn't.

The parable of the talents that Jesus gave certainty does not support Communism. On the contrary it would support Capitalism. The ones who took what they were given and made a profit with it were commended but the one who hid his talent and did not earn anything with it was condemned. In fact his talent was taken away and given to the one who had the most. That does not sound like Communism or redistribution of wealth to me.

Now don't get me wrong. I think we should help the poor and less fortunate and the Bible says we should. What I am opposed to is a government system that forces us to do that. God wants us to give willingly and cheerfully, not because someone forces us to do it.

Besides if we lived under a communist system we would all be improvised so how could we help the poor when we would barely be scraping by?

Those who think communism is the way to go as an economic system are ignorant of the history of the 20th century and the complete failure of communism as an economic system. Even the communist Chinese figured that out and that is why they have modeled their economic system after Capitalism.


But we are Americans. We don't believe this. We believe in individual rights. We believe the poor should pick themselves up by their own boot straps. That those who do not have a job do not deserve our help. We certainly should not help those who are suffering due to their own failings. This is the conservative view. I here it on conservative talk radio all the time. But this should not be the Christian view. Yet, the so called "religious right," mirrors this conservative view. They condemn those who agree with the concept of the redistribution of wealth. They fear what they perceive as communism.

This is not the conservative view. Yes we believe that people should help themselves as much as possible and not expect other people to support them because they are too lazy to work. But those who are truly needy are deserving of help. The Bible also teaches that when it says if a man does not work he should not eat. When the government sets up all these social welfare programs they are abused by many people that would rather not work. You are just distorting what is being said on conservative radio.

Clifford

Didymus
05-03-2011, 08:32 PM
The question that we need to ask is whether what the Church did in Acts 2 was a model for the Church to follow thereafter or was it something they did because of the peculiar historical circumstances of that time.

I submit that it was done because of the peculiar historical circumstances that they were living in. God knew it would not be long before persecution would break out and many of them would be forced to flee and have their property confiscated. So it made sense for them to sell their lands and houses and use the money from those sales to help the Church rather than to have their lands and houses confiscated. I don't see anywhere else in the NT where this was taught or practiced so I don't think it is a principle that we need to follow.

So why would you think that God would endorse a system that is a huge failure? Well he doesn't.

The parable of the talents that Jesus gave certainty does not support Communism. On the contrary it would support Capitalism. The ones who took what they were given and made a profit with it were commended but the one who hid his talent and did not earn anything with it was condemned. In fact his talent was taken away and given to the one who had the most. That does not sound like Communism or redistribution of wealth to me.

Now don't get me wrong. I think we should help the poor and less fortunate and the Bible says we should. What I am opposed to is a government system that forces us to do that. God wants us to give willingly and cheerfully, not because someone forces us to do it.

Besides if we lived under a communist system we would all be improvised (do you mean impoverished?) so how could we help the poor when we would barely be scraping by?

This is not the conservative view. Yes we believe that people should help themselves as much as possible and not expect other people to support them because they are too lazy to work. But those who are truly needy are deserving of help. The Bible also teaches that when it says if a man does not work he should not eat. When the government sets up all these social welfare programs they are abused by many people that would rather not work. You are just distorting what is being said on conservative radio.

Clifford

Clifford,

I find your post a bit perplexing. First, nothing in the original post had anything to do with government forced communism, which, in my opinion, was never really pure communism. I am just as opposed to government forced communism as you are. But that is a different subject. There is a reason I entitled the OP, "Christian Communism." It is precisely because I didn't want people to get the idea that I was a proponent of government forced communism. So I eliminated that part of you post in the quote above.

To the rest of your post, I say this. Is there not one body of Christ? Do we not have one Lord, one faith, one God, one Holy Spirit? Are we not taught in I Cor. 1.10 that we have the same doctrine, or should have? Are we not all purchased by the same blood? Are we not taught to love one another? Because of all this, do we not have all things in common?

Now regarding the parable of the talents. Are you suggesting that we should take away from the poor and give to the rich? I believe that the preponderance of Scripture does not teach capitalism. The idea of mutual edification goes against that idea. Besides, in my opinion, capitalism leads to greed. Just look at the United States. Here we have the greedy and the needy. There isn't much left in the middle.

"The Bible also teaches that when it says if a man does not work he should not eat." No it doesn't. It teaches if a man WILL NOT WORK neither should he eat. Just about everybody misreads that verse. And it is pulled out of context as well.

Like so many that have responded to this topic on the other forums, you too have confused the idea of government forced communism and Christian communism, and they are two different ideas. Christian communism is based on Christ, not Stalin or Marx.

:ranger:

CWH
05-03-2011, 09:33 PM
Clifford,

I find your post a bit perplexing. First, nothing in the original post had anything to do with government forced communism, which, in my opinion, was never really pure communism. I am just as opposed to government forced communism as you are. But that is a different subject. There is a reason I entitled the OP, "Christian Communism." It is precisely because I didn't want people to get the idea that I was a proponent of government forced communism. So I eliminated that part of you post in the quote above.

To the rest of your post, I say this. Is there not one body of Christ? Do we not have one Lord, one faith, one God, one Holy Spirit? Are we not taught in I Cor. 1.10 that we have the same doctrine, or should have? Are we not all purchased by the same blood? Are we not taught to love one another? Because of all this, do we not have all things in common?

Now regarding the parable of the talents. Are you suggesting that we should take away from the poor and give to the rich? I believe that the preponderance of Scripture does not teach capitalism. The idea of mutual edification goes against that idea. Besides, in my opinion, capitalism leads to greed. Just look at the United States. Here we have the greedy and the needy. There isn't much left in the middle.

"The Bible also teaches that when it says if a man does not work he should not eat." No it doesn't. It teaches if a man WILL NOT WORK neither should he eat. Just about everybody misreads that verse. And it is pulled out of context as well.

Like so many that have responded to this topic on the other forums, you too have confused the idea of government forced communism and Christian communism, and they are two different ideas. Christian communism is based on Christ, not Stalin or Marx.

:ranger:

No, No, No.... you have to explore a system which I termed as "Non-monetary Christian Communism". Current capitalist or communist system is based on a monetary system and because it is based on money, greed and other evil will ensue. As I have mentioned, in heaven, we do not need to use money because using of money will only result in evils and there are many verses in the Bible that suggested no money is used in heaven. and there are also verses that suggested food (i.e. "trees bearing fruits") and brotherly love ("Buy without money and without price") are the currency used in heaven. Christian communism is based on Christian brotherly love. Theorectically, such a non-monetary system is possible but in practical is impossible as humans are evil, selfish and greedy. Get rid of evil greed and selfishness and such a system will work. And it will work with extravagance beyond everybody's dream.....everybody living like billionairres without money. It's not difficult to imagine, just imagine a world where everybody co-operates and offers free services to one another and those who refuses will be punished and deprived of food.

Humanly such a world non-money Christian communisnm is impossible but with God nothing is impossible. As long as the world uses money, there will always be a gap with the have and the have-not, the rich and the poor. Jesus said, "You will always have the poor with you but you will not always have me" meaning as long as God is not in control of the world, you will always have the poor with us.

Many Blessings.

Didymus
05-03-2011, 11:45 PM
No, No, No.... you have to explore a system which I termed as "Non-monetary Christian Communism". Current capitalist or communist system is based on a monetary system and because it is based on money, greed and other evil will ensue. As I have mentioned, in heaven, we do not need to use money because using of money will only result in evils and there are many verses in the Bible that suggested no money is used in heaven. and there are also verses that suggested food (i.e. "trees bearing fruits") and brotherly love ("Buy without money and without price") are the currency used in heaven. Christian communism is based on Christian brotherly love. Theorectically, such a non-monetary system is possible but in practical is impossible as humans are evil, selfish and greedy. Get rid of evil greed and selfishness and such a system will work. And it will work with extravagance beyond everybody's dream.....everybody living like billionairres without money. It's not difficult to imagine, just imagine a world where everybody co-operates and offers free services to one another and those who refuses will be punished and deprived of food.

Humanly such a world non-money Christian communisnm is impossible but with God nothing is impossible. As long as the world uses money, there will always be a gap with the have and the have-not, the rich and the poor. Jesus said, "You will always have the poor with you but you will not always have me" meaning as long as God is not in control of the world, you will always have the poor with us.

Many Blessings.

Unfortunately, money is our means of exchange. And, the Bible doesn't say money is the root of all evil. It says the love of money is the root of all evil.

Money has been around for a long time. Even Jesus used money.

:ranger:

CWH
05-04-2011, 01:00 AM
Unfortunately, money is our means of exchange. And, the Bible doesn't say money is the root of all evil. It says the love of money is the root of all evil.

Money has been around for a long time. Even Jesus used money.

:ranger:

I understand all these Didy. Without use of money, will there be love of money? Money has been around for a long time does not mean it will be used forever. Animals don't use money and cavemen didn't used money, why should human used money? The apostles would have become billionairres by raising the dead, cure sickness and cast out demans but why didn't they want to earn those monies?...becasue their goal was the kingdom of heaven...the reward of a hundred fold of all the things they have given up and of course, eternal life. Yes Jesus used money because He was God on earth, and on earth a person is subject to life on earth...eat, sleep, see, talk, buy, sell, used money. Wolnder how can one live without money on earth when everyone used money? Thuis is why I said that a non-monetary Christain communism is impossible with humans but nothing is impossible with God.

Matthew 6:25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[e]?
28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Verses that suggest we will not use money in heaven:

Isaiah 55:
1"Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost.

Revelation 21:
6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

Matthew 6:
19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matthew 6:
24"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

1Timothy 6:
6But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. 11But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness..........17Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

Matthew 19:
21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Acts 8:
20Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!

Isaiah 52:
3For this is what the LORD says: "You were sold for nothing, and without money you will be redeemed."


See my thread on "Will we use money in heaven":

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1346

Many Blessings.

throwback
05-04-2011, 08:22 AM
The economic system of the body is not communism any more that it is capitalism or any other "ism". The governing principle of the Anointed One's Body is that of LOVE. In Christ, love and the transformed charactor of the individuals rule the day as there is no political system in place or advocated at all.

Jesus' 1st century message to individuals was that the Kingdom was at hand and that they in light of that should divest themselves of their worldly ties and follow him. There was no point in storing up treasure and possessions in the land when in a generation's time it would all be ruined and destroyed. Plus, greater things were in store for those who followed him than could be offered by all the wealth and fame in the world.

Rose
05-04-2011, 09:16 AM
The economic system of the body is not communism any more that it is capitalism or any other "ism". The governing principle of the Anointed One's Body is that of LOVE. In Christ, love and the transformed charactor of the individuals rule the day as there is no political system in place or advocated at all.

Jesus' 1st century message to individuals was that the Kingdom was at hand and that they in light of that should divest themselves of their worldly ties and follow him. There was no point in storing up treasure and possessions in the land when in a generation's time it would all be ruined and destroyed. Plus, greater things were in store for those who followed him than could be offered by all the wealth and fame in the world.

The only way that people become motivated to follow a leader such as Jesus and spread his message to the world is to convince them to leave their worldly possessions that they are attached to and share the message of a better place not of this world.

During the time of Jesus in the 1st century a Jewish sect that began around 200 BC, called the Essenes, had already developed the eschatological teaching on the "End of Days" that Jesus was preaching. The lifestyle of the Essenes was one of communal living and much of what we read in the Bible concerning the teachings of Jesus comes directly from the teachings of the Essenes, who had been practicing those principles for two centuries.

I am doing an in-depth study on the teachings and lifestyles of the Essenes and find the similarities to the teachings of Jesus fascinating. The Essenes even had a prophet whom they called "the teacher of righteousness", he was crucified in 88 BC by the Jewish Ruler Alexander Jannaeus Herod for teaching against the Old Covenant Jewish sacrificial system! Kinda makes one wonder where the teachings of Jesus came from?

All the Best,
Rose

Didymus
05-04-2011, 06:21 PM
Let's see if we can come to some agreement.

Would you all agree that all Christians are one in Christ?

:ranger:

Richard Amiel McGough
05-04-2011, 10:22 PM
The economic system of the body is not communism any more that it is capitalism or any other "ism". The governing principle of the Anointed One's Body is that of LOVE. In Christ, love and the transformed charactor of the individuals rule the day as there is no political system in place or advocated at all.

Jesus' 1st century message to individuals was that the Kingdom was at hand and that they in light of that should divest themselves of their worldly ties and follow him. There was no point in storing up treasure and possessions in the land when in a generation's time it would all be ruined and destroyed. Plus, greater things were in store for those who followed him than could be offered by all the wealth and fame in the world.
I agree. The word "communism" has connotations relating to the modern theory put forth by Marx and supposedly approximated in the former USSR and China. The modern political system called "communism" has absolutely nothing to do with the communism (communal living) practiced by the early Church.

Clifford
05-08-2011, 01:34 PM
Clifford,

I find your post a bit perplexing. First, nothing in the original post had anything to do with government forced communism, which, in my opinion, was never really pure communism. I am just as opposed to government forced communism as you are. But that is a different subject. There is a reason I entitled the OP, "Christian Communism." It is precisely because I didn't want people to get the idea that I was a proponent of government forced communism. So I eliminated that part of you post in the quote above.

To the rest of your post, I say this. Is there not one body of Christ? Do we not have one Lord, one faith, one God, one Holy Spirit? Are we not taught in I Cor. 1.10 that we have the same doctrine, or should have? Are we not all purchased by the same blood? Are we not taught to love one another? Because of all this, do we not have all things in common?

Now regarding the parable of the talents. Are you suggesting that we should take away from the poor and give to the rich? I believe that the preponderance of Scripture does not teach capitalism. The idea of mutual edification goes against that idea. Besides, in my opinion, capitalism leads to greed. Just look at the United States. Here we have the greedy and the needy. There isn't much left in the middle.

"The Bible also teaches that when it says if a man does not work he should not eat." No it doesn't. It teaches if a man WILL NOT WORK neither should he eat. Just about everybody misreads that verse. And it is pulled out of context as well.

Like so many that have responded to this topic on the other forums, you too have confused the idea of government forced communism and Christian communism, and they are two different ideas. Christian communism is based on Christ, not Stalin or Marx.

:ranger:


I find your post a bit perplexing. First, nothing in the original post had anything to do with government forced communism, which, in my opinion, was never really pure communism. I am just as opposed to government forced communism as you are. But that is a different subject. There is a reason I entitled the OP, "Christian Communism." It is precisely because I didn't want people to get the idea that I was a proponent of government forced communism.

Hi Didymus,

Communism as an economic system is always a failure whether government mandated or voluntarily practiced in the Church. I found this interesting article last Thanksgiving that gives a good illustration of this. It shows how the Pilgrims at the Plymouth colony tried to practice communalism and it turned out to be a failure and as a result they almost starved. Here is the link to the article: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/253863/first-thanksgiving-frank-miniter?page=1


To the rest of your post, I say this. Is there not one body of Christ? Do we not have one Lord, one faith, one God, one Holy Spirit? Are we not taught in I Cor. 1.10 that we have the same doctrine, or should have? Are we not all purchased by the same blood? Are we not taught to love one another? Because of all this, do we not have all things in common?

Yes we are all part of the body of Christ and are one in him, but that does not mean we should go off and all live together in one big happy commune. I think Christians take what the Church at Jerusalem did in the beginning as a model for the Church to follow down through history. I don't believe that is true. Nowhere else in the NT does it mention the Church living like that. As i said in my previous post they did that because of the soon coming persecution and all their property would be confiscated anyway so might as well sell it now and use the proceeds to help the Church.


Now regarding the parable of the talents. Are you suggesting that we should take away from the poor and give to the rich? I believe that the preponderance of Scripture does not teach capitalism. The idea of mutual edification goes against that idea. Besides, in my opinion, capitalism leads to greed. Just look at the United States. Here we have the greedy and the needy. There isn't much left in the middle.

No, I don't think it tells us to take from the poor and give to the rich. What it is saying is that if God gives you a gift or talent and you don't use it it will atrophy and do you no good and you will lose what you have.


"The Bible also teaches that when it says if a man does not work he should not eat." No it doesn't. It teaches if a man WILL NOT WORK neither should he eat. Just about everybody misreads that verse. And it is pulled out of context as well.

Ya, you are right, it says if a man is unwilling or does not want to work. Of course if someone is unable to find work and needs a helping hand we should definitely help him.

Clifford

Didymus
05-09-2011, 09:21 PM
I said: To the rest of your post, I say this. Is there not one body of Christ? Do we not have one Lord, one faith, one God, one Holy Spirit? Are we not taught in I Cor. 1.10 that we have the same doctrine, or should have? Are we not all purchased by the same blood? Are we not taught to love one another? Because of all this, do we not have all things in common?

Clifford replied: Yes we are all part of the body of Christ and are one in him.

Well, we agree on this point. So the question then is, how is this manifested among Christians today?

:ranger: