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Craig.Paardekooper
02-25-2011, 08:20 AM
The Book of Isaiah

Isaiah was the first of the so-called Major Prophets, and is widely regarded as the greatest of the Old Testament prophets.

Isaiah began his ministry in 741 B.C. (the year that King Uzziah died see here (http://www.bibleistrue.com/qna/qna63.htm)) and his ministry lasted through the siege of Jerusalem by the Assyrian army in 701 B.C. However, the Assyrian army did not take the city; Jerusalem was delivered. An angel of the Lord struck down the Assyrian army at the gates of Jerusalem without a single arrow being fired. It was Isaiah's preaching that saved the city from destruction. So it is appropriate that the name "Isaiah" means "The Salvation of the Lord".

As you will see, Isaiah not only left us with a prophecy of the Messiah, his entire book is a miniature version of the whole Bible, and it's central figure is Christ crucified. Isaiah wrote his book 770 years before the New Testament Gospel was preached, yet Isaiah clearly foresaw that Gospel, and the whole Bible in it's entirety. What you will read is proof of this. It seems that Isaiah's hand was "guided".


The Book of Isaiah divides into Old and New Testament Parts:

The Book of Isaiah is an interesting document. It consists of 66 chapters, just as our present day Bible has 66 books. And just as our present day Bible divides into the Old testament (with 39 books) and the New Testament (with 27 books), so also does the Book of Isaiah divide into 2 distinct parts, one of 39 chapters and the other of 27 chapters.

Chapters 1-39 of the Book of Isaiah are known as the “Book of Judgement”, and (like the 39 books of the Old Testament) are filled with judgement upon immoral idolatrous men. Judah has sinned; the surrounding nations have sinned; the whole earth has sinned. Judgement must come, for God cannot allow such blatant sin to go unpunished forever.

The last 27 chapters of the Book of Isaiah (chapters 40-66) are known as the “Book of Comfort”. These 27 chapters (like the 27 books of the New Testament) declare a message of hope. The Messiah is coming as a Saviour and a Sovereign to bear a cross and to wear a crown.

So in it’s structure, and thematic content, the 2 parts of the Book of Isaiah closely match the structure and themes of the whole Bible – it’s Old Testament and New Testament.


Central Figure of the New Testament Part is Jesus Christ:

On close examination of the last 27 chapters of Isaiah (corresponding to the New Testament), we find something quite remarkable. These 27 chapters divide into three groups of 9 (3 groups of 3 x 3). Each of these groups is separated by the phrase "There is no rest for the wicked".

The central group of 9 chapters deals with the Servant Messiah, and the central chapter within this central group is chapter 53. Chapter 53 of Isaiah describes the DEATH OF JESUS ON THE CROSS. So the central figure of Isaiah chapters 40-66 is the crucified Christ.

In summary, chapters 40 to 66 (the last 27 chapters) of the Book of Isaiah correspond to the New Testament (the last 27 books of the Bible). We have seen that the theme of these chapters is salvation, and the central figure (found in the central chapter – chapter 53) is that of Christ crucified.

http://www.craigdemo.co.uk/isaiah1.jpg


The Beginning of the Gospel of Isaiah Corresponds with the beginning of the New Testament:

Incredibly, the very text of chapter 40 of the Book of Isaiah corresponds to the text of the 40th book of the Bible, which is the first book of the New Testament.


1) John the Baptist

Chapter 40 v 3 of Isaiah reads

"The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way for the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.”

These words find a precise correspondence in the 40th Book of the Bible – the Gospel of Matthew.

Matthew (40th Book) Chapter 3 reads –

“In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying, ‘The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make his paths straight.”

These are the words spoken by John the Baptist who announced the coming of the Kingdom of God and the Gospel.

2) Explicit reference to the word GOSPEL:

Richard McGough, on his website www.biblewheel.com, points out an even deeper level of connection.

The connection between Isaiah 40 and the Gospel is made explicit in the text of Isaiah 40 v 9 –

“O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, ‘Behold your God!’ Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.”"

Behold your God!” and “all flesh shall see” refer to the physical incarnation of God in Jesus Christ, who, becoming physical, was visible to all flesh.

This passage from Isaiah contains the FIRST OCCURRENCE in the Bible of the Hebrew word MAVESERET, meaning BRINGER OF GOOD TIDINGS. The Greek Septuagint version of Isaiah 40 v 9 translates “that bringest good tidings” into the word EVANGELIZEMONOS. This word is used in the New Testament, where it is translated as PREACH THE GOSPEL (Romans 9 v 18). It is from the root EVANGELIDZO from which we get the word EVANGELIZE. It is the root of the word translated GOSPEL throughout the New Testament.

So Isaiah chapter 40 uses the very words spoken by John the Baptist, the announcer of the Gospel, and introduces the word GOSPEL, just as The Book of Matthew (The 40th Book) starts with John the Baptist announcing the Gospel and is the first book of the New Testament (The Gospel). The phrases “Good Tidings” and "Good News” occur 6 times in the 27 chapters of Isaiah that correspond to the New Testament, and these phrases are completely absent from the 39 chapters of Isaiah that correspond to the 39 books of the Old Testament.


In summary:

We have a familiar series of events –

• Isaiah's name means "Salvation of God" ; just as Jesus' name means "Salvation"
• Isaiah preached for 40 years before the siege of Jerusalem in 701 B.C.; just as the Gospel was preached for 40 years before the siege of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
• Isaiah leaves us a Gospel of Salvation, which -

1. Has 27 chapters corresponding to the 27 books of the New Testament,
2. Has the central character of Christ crucified – in chapter 53 (the central chapter)
3. Introduces the word GOSPEL in chapter 40 corresponding to the 40th Book of the Bible, Matthew – which is the first book of the New Testament,.
4. In chapter 40 Isaiah uses the very words spoken by John the Baptist – the announcer of the Gospel.
5. The last chapter of Isaiah, Chapter 66 uses the words “New Heavens and New Earth”, the very words found in the 66th book of the Bible and last book of the New Testament – the Book of Revelation

Isaiah 53, the central chapter of Isaiah's "New Testament" foretold that the Messiah would come as a suffering servant to suffer and die for the sins of many.

"Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all." Isaiah 53


"Who is the Suffering Servant?"

In the New Testament, different people had different opinions as to who Jesus was. Some said he was Elijah, some said he was a prophet and others thought he was just a good teacher. "Who do people say that I am?". John's gospel provides the answer in 7 "I AM" sayings

There are the seven [distinct] "I AM" sayings in John, the 43rd book of the Bible:

6v35 "I am the bread of life"
8v12 "I am the light of the world"
10v7 "I am the gate for the sheep"
10v11 "I am the good shepherd"
11v25 "I am the resurrection and the life"
14v6 "I am the way, the truth and the life"
15v1 "I am the true vine"

Similarly, there are seven 'I AM' sayings in the 43rd chapter of Isaiah:

v 3: "I am the Lord, your God"
v10 "so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he"
v 11 "I, even I, am the Lord"
v12 "I am God"
v13 "from ancient days I am he." [KJV: Before the day was, I am he.]
v15 "I am the Lord"
v25 "I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions."



770 years

In the time of Isaiah, Israel consisted of two "kingdoms" - the Northern Kingdom - centred on the capital Samaria, and the Southern Kingdom - with it's capital at Jerusalem. The Northern Kingdom perished in 721 B.C., 770 years after the Exodus (1491 B.C.). However the Southern Tribes escaped destruction and where miraculously delivered in 701 B.C.

Northern Kingdom 1492 - 721 = 770 years
Southern Kingdom 701 + 70 = 770 years (we do not count 0 B.C.)

The Northern Kingdom perished after 770 years. It was utterly destroyed by the Assyrians. However Hezekiah repented, and the Southern Kingdom was spared. Just as Hezekiah was given an extension of his life, so the Southern Kingdom was given an extension for 770 years - a second chance.

http://www.craigdemo.co.uk/isaiah2.jpg

I would like to stress that the symmetrical pattern of 770 years was not read in to the data - I made no attempt to interpret the dates - the dates provided by Ussher simply fall into this pattern - which should stimulate our curiosity.

When I saw that the Southern Kingdom lasted 770 years (701 B.C. till 70 A.D.) I thought it was a happy coincidence. Then, when I realised that the 10 tribes of the Northern Kingdom had also existed for 770 years, I was surprised. Then when I saw that these two periods cover the entire span of history from the Exodus to 70 A.D., and that they are symmetrical about the midpoint of Jewish history, it seemed beyond coincidence. The balance of symmetry seems to extend to the theme - judgement on one side, and salvation on the other - guilty and not guilty !!

Isaiah's gospel seems perfectly placed, at point of balance between judgement and salvation - between the JUDGEMENT of the Northern Kingdom and the SALVATION of the Southern Kingdom - a balance mirrored in the "Book of Judgement" and the "Book of Comfort".

When I contemplated this pattern, the impression it created was one of balance between judgement and salvation - like a giant pair of scales - scales of justice. This was more remarkable because the pattern begins with the giving of the law, and ends with the final judgement upon Jerusalem. And at the very centre of this pattern, at the point of balance, we find the Gospel of Isaiah.. Ofcourse, this pattern is completely dependent upon the accuracy of Usshers dates.


http://www.craigdemo.co.uk/isaiah3.jpg

What is more remarkable still is that Isaiah preached his gospel during the 40 years prior to the siege of Jerusalem (from 741 B.C. till 701 B.C.). In the same way, Jesus' disciples would later preach the Gospel for 40 years prior to the siege of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. (from 30 A.D till 70 A.D.). One ministry perfectly reflects the other - in content , in duration, and in the final ending. So, 770 years before the time of Christ, Isaiah had given the Jews a “Gospel in miniature”. His prophetic foresight of the Gospel was fulfilled 770 years later (from 741 B.C. till 30 A.D.) when the true Gospel was preached.

Perhaps it was because of the preaching of Isaiah's gospel that the southern kingdom repented and was spared from destruction in 701 B.C. It's final destruction came in 70 A.D. - 770 years later, at the hands of the Roman army. Peter had once asked Jesus -

"Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times." Matthew 18v21.



http://www.craigdemo.co.uk/scales2.jpg
http://www.craigdemo.co.uk/scales3.jpg


Before Isaiah we have the judgemental nature of the Old Testament religion which began with the Exodus out of Egypt (a captivity that had lasted 430 years). After Isaiah we have the Axial Age of compassion, which began with the exodus of the Jews out of Palestine (a gentile captivity that would last 430 years). The Isaiah stands at the balance between the Judgement of the old and the Compassion of the new - between the first captivity (in Egypt) and the second captivity (in the Gentile nations) - between the First Exodus and the Second.

The First Exodus into Sinai marked the beginning of the Age of Law. The second Exodus into Babylon marked the beginning of the Age of Compassion (the Axial Age). 430 years of captivity preceded the first Exodus - 430 years of Gentile captivity followed the second.

The whole sequence is an amazing choreography of balance that spans 70 generations from Enoch to Christ. The period of punishment of the angels for leading Adam astray.

See here - http://www.craigdemo.co.uk/craig.htm


So, this interesting pattern rests upon the accuracy of 4 dates - these are -

1. The date of the Exodus 1491 B.C.

2. The date of the destruction of the Northern Kingdom - 721 B.C.

3. The date of the deliverance of the Southern Kingdom - 701 B.C.

4. The date of the destruction of Jerusalem - 70 A.D.

Consequently I must check to see whether these dates are correct, incorrect or unknown. I will try and do this over the coming posts

Rose
02-25-2011, 08:42 AM
Hi Craig,

Great post! Isaiah is indeed quite a stunning miniature Bible. Here are a couple links to some more information Richard and I have done on connecting Bible books with Isaiah chapters.

Isaiah the wheel within a wheel (http://www.biblewheel.com/InnerWheels/Isaiah/IsaiahBible.asp)

Isaiah-Bible Correlations (http://biblewheel.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=14)

Blessings,
Rose

Richard Amiel McGough
02-26-2011, 11:00 AM
770 years

In the time of Isaiah, Israel consisted of two "kingdoms" - the Northern Kingdom - centred on the capital Samaria, and the Southern Kingdom - with it's capital at Jerusalem. The Northern Kingdom perished in 721 B.C., 770 years after the Exodus (1491 B.C.). However the Southern Tribes escaped destruction and where miraculously delivered in 701 B.C.

Northern Kingdom 1492 - 721 = 770 years
Southern Kingdom 701 + 70 = 770 years (we do not count 0 B.C.)

The Northern Kingdom perished after 770 years. It was utterly destroyed by the Assyrians. However Hezekiah repented, and the Southern Kingdom was spared. Just as Hezekiah was given an extension of his life, so the Southern Kingdom was given an extension for 770 years - a second chance.

http://www.craigdemo.co.uk/isaiah2.jpg

So the "Gospel of Isaiah" appeared at the precise midpoint of Jewish history, between the JUDGEMENT of the Northern Kingdom and the SALVATION of the Southern Kingdom. And this theme of judgement and salvation is mirrored in Isaiah.

Hey there Craig,

I can see that the years give a rough symmetry, but I see no basis for such an exact balance because there is no way to confirm the date of 1491 BC for the giving of the Law at Mt. Sinai. It is Ussher's date, and as far as I know, it has been pretty decisively shown to NOT be correct. Have you considered this criticism of your thesis?

All the best,

Richard

Craig.Paardekooper
02-26-2011, 04:45 PM
Hello Richard,

The Exodus story is a record of a hebrew holocaust. According to the Bible, this persecution of the Hebrews began at the time of Moses birth - 1570 B.C. according to Usshers chronology.

This persecution was part of a large scale event in Egypt - the expulsion of the Hyksos

The Hyksos were Semitics who began migrating to Egypt at the very time that Jacob came to Egypt. According to the Turin king list there were six Hyksos kings who ruled for 108 years. One important ruler was named "Y'qbhr" or "Jacob-hr" (Albright 1934, 11). Scarabs have been found with the words "Jacob-El" dating from this period. Soon the trickle of Semitics became a flood and then more militant groups arrived and effectively took over Lower Egypt. These Semitic rulers were sympathetic to fellow Semites, and many attained positions of authority. Many Semites were given positions of power under Hyksos rule. The Hyksos were at odds with the native Egyptian rulers. They followed their own religion and completely neglected the native Egyptian religion, so much so that many of the temples fell into complete disrepair. However, the Hyksos grew to be a wealthy and powerful merchant class. Avarice, their capital in the Delta, became a byword for riches. They even levied a tribute from the native Egyptian rulers who still controlled Upper Egypt.

Finally, in the time of Pharoah Kamose (1573 - 1570 B.C) and his brother Pharoah Ahmosis (1570 B.C. - ) the native Egyptians began to fight back against Hyksos rule. Kamose captured many Hyksos cities. Finally Pharoah Ahmose laid siege to Avaris, the capital of the Hyksos, with an army numbering about 400,000. The Hyksos surrendered and they were expelled from Egypt, and once again a native Egyptian Pharoah became ruler of both upper and lower Egypt. So the Bible says - "A new king, who did not know about Joseph, came to power in Egypt." The date of the expulsion of the Hyksos is given as c 1570 B.C. Not all of the Asiatics were expelled. Asiatics who remained were treated quite brutally as slaves. The Egyptians made use of their labour. The Egyptians devised a plan of infant genocide to stop them breeding - to kill every newborn Hebrew male. This way the Semite population would be controlled. It was at this time that Moses was born (about 1571 B.C). So Moses was born during the very years that the drive began to expell all the semites. In fact, the Exodus story is basically the story of a Hebrew holocaust that began with the drive to expell the HYksos and other semites.

Explusions continued during the reigns of succeeding Pharoahs - Thutmosis I and II

For 40 years Moses watched the oppression of his people, as they were down trodden and abused by the Egyptian overlords, then in 1530 B.C. he killed an Egyptian and was forced to flee. 40 years later he would return to free his people.

So you can see how well the Hyksos period fits in with the Exodus story. While Hyksos pharoahs were in power, the Hebrews were relatively safe. However once the native Egyptians had expelled the Hyksos, which coincidentally happened almost to the year when Moses was born, then the native Egyptians hatred for the Asiatics was turned against the remaining semites. Infact the Egyptians were paranoid, and feared that if the Hebrew Semites were allowed to breed they would join forces with the Hyksos rulers and over power the Egyptians - so they planned to kill all the male children, something which a Semitic ruler would never do.

The Bible tells us that Moses was born at a time when the Hebrews were persecuted by the Egyptians. In the Egyptian history we find that there was a large scale drive to remove semites and asiatics from Egypt that began in about 1573 B.C. onwards. Ahmose was the new king who "knew not Joseph" and wanted to break the semites power in Egypt. Ushers date for the birth of Moses coincides exactly with the beginning of the anti-semitism in Egypt under Kamose and Ahmose. It was Ahmose who drove the Hyksos semites out of Egypt. Once the Hyksos rulers were out of the way, persecution was unchecked.

Chronology Table (http://www.third-millennium-library.com/readinghall/UniversalHistory/THE_OLD_WORLD/EGYPT/Breadstead/CHRONOLOGICAL-TABLE-OF-KINGS.html)


Egyptian dynasty J. H. Breasted's dates

1st & 2nd dynasties 3400–2980
3rd dynasty 2980–2900
4th dynasty 2900–2750
5th dynasty 2750–2625
6th dynasty 2623–2475
7th & 8th dynasties 2475–2445
9th & 10th dynasties 2445–2160
11th dynasty 2160–2000
12th dynasty 2000–1788
13th to 17th dynasties 1780–1580
18th dynasty 1580–1350
19th dynasty 1350–1205
20th dynasty 1200–1090
21st dynasty 1090–945
22nd dynasty 945–745
23rd dynasty 745–718
24th dynasty 718–712
25th dynasty 712–663
26th dynasty 663–525

Source Wikipedia

The Encyclopedia Judaica gives the following dates for the Hyksos period -


HYKSOS , the founders of the Egyptian 15th dynasty; Asiatics who exercised political control over Egypt between approximately 1655 and 1570 b.c.e. The Hyksos established their capital at Avaris in the Eastern Delta, controlled the Nile Valley as far south as Hermopolis, and claimed overlordship over the rest of Upper Egypt. Avaris (Egyptian ḥwt- wʿrt) has been identified as Tell el-Dabʿa in the Northeast Delta.

1570 is the date for the birth of Moses and the killing of the male infants.

The Jewish Virtual Library says this -


HYKSOS, the founders of the Egyptian 15th dynasty; Asiatics who exercised political control over Egypt between approximately 1655 and 1570 B.C.E. The Hyksos established their capital at Avaris in the Eastern Delta, controlled the Nile Valley as far south as Hermopolis, and claimed overlordship over the rest of Upper Egypt. Avaris (Egyptian ḥwt- wʿrt) has been identified as Tell el-Dabʿa in the Northeast Delta. Most of the Hyksos personal names are west-Semitic, in the same language group as Amorite and the Canaanite and Aramaic dialects. There seem to be no Hurrian names as was once thought. "Hyksos" reflects hekau khoswe, "the rulers of foreign lands," the name given them by their Egyptian contemporaries. They were also referred to as ʿmw, "Asiatics," the standard name for the inhabitants of the Eastern Mediterranean littoral, Canaan and Syria. After having infiltrated into the Nile Valley over a period of several centuries, they managed to seize the kingship during the chaotic period which ended the Egyptian Middle Kingdom. At the beginning of the 18th Dynasty (c. 1580 B.C.E.) Pharaoh Ahmes expelled the Hyksos from Egypt and pursued them to southern Palestine. After besieging Sharuhen (Tell el-Farʿah) in the south, for three years, he defeated them. His successors, Amenophis I, Tuthmosis I, and Tuthmosis III, completed their expulsion from Egypt.

The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Archaeology -


Hyksos [CP].
The name given by the Egyptians to warrior groups who infiltrated Egypt at the end of the Middle Kingdom to dominate the Nile Valley in the second intermediate period between 1640 and 1570 BC and to form the 15th Dynasty. Their capital was at Avaris in the Nile Delta. Their expulsion in c.1567 BC under Amosis, the founder of the 18th Dynasty, heralded the start of the New Kingdom in Egypt. The Hyksos are not easily recognized in the archaeological record, although in Palestine they seem to have built defensive ramparts faced with smooth hard plaster. They seem to have been ruled by a military aristocracy and were responsible for the introduction of the horse and chariot to Egypt, and perhaps also the upright loom, the olive and the pomegranate.

In Summary

The native Egyptians regarded the Hyksos as foreigners, invaders, people who had no respect for religion. They had taken over the Egyptians homeland, and driven the Egyptians into Upper Egypt. There is abundant archaeological evidence showing that these semitic foreigners were people from Canaan, and included Jacob’s family. Scarabs have even been found fro this period with Jacob’s name !! It was these semitic rulers who had “known Joseph” and raised him to a position of power.

However the native Egyptian rulers ,who occupied and controlled Upper Egypt, were biding their time – waiting to take back Lower Egypt from the Hyksos, drive out the foreigners, and make Egypt their own once more.

It was in the reign of Ahmose that the semitic Hyksos rulers were finally and decisively expelled.

Now that the native Egyptian rulers had regained control of Lower Egypt, they could dictate how the remaining asiatics and semites were to be treated. So they implemented compulsory birth control – ordering the killing of every male child. They did this inorder to limit the semite population which they feared would grow and ally itself with their Hyksos enemies. For the same reasons, it is obvious that this policy was NOT enacted by a Hyksos king, since it would be to the advantage of a Hyksos ruler to populate Egypt with semites. The infant genocide was a nationalistic policy implemented by a native Egyptian ruler.

Such a policy of birth control could only be implemented once the Hyksos rulers had been driven out. This took place in the reign of Ahmose (1580 B.C -) when he expelled the Hyksos rulers. The Bible says that ”a new king, who knew not Joseph, came to power in Egypt”. The beginning of the reign of Ahmose coincides almost exactly with the Bible date for the birth of Moses (1570 B.C. Ussher).

Craig.Paardekooper
03-02-2011, 01:19 PM
The Eruption of Thera.

There are strong similarities between the 10 plagues that accompanied the Exodus, and the effects of a volcanic eruption. This has suggested to many scholars that the eruption of Thera may have been responsible for the plagues. Soot causing darkness, burning hail, parting of the Sea of Reeds etc.

Consequently, if we can date the Thera eruption, then we can date the Exodus.

Current dating of the Thera eruption rests on archaeological dating and Carbon 14 Dating. Strangely, ALL the archaeological dating points to 1500 B.C. Dating of artifacts found within the volcanic ash strongly indicates 1500 B.C. However, the C14 dating points to 100 years earlier. This discrepancy has not been resolved. It is interesting that all the archaeological evidence points strongly to a date which is very near to Ussher's date - 1491 B.C.

What is more, pumice from the Thera eruption is completely absent in Hyksos layers in Egypt, but first appears in layers corresponding to 1500 B.C.

http://www.craigdemo.co.uk/pumice.jpg

As you can see from the quote, the earliest volcanic debris is found in the levels corresponding to Thutmosis I dating 1500 B.C. Thutmosis, therefore, is the Pharoah of the Exodus. Thutmosis reigned 80 years after the persecution against the Semites began in the reigns of Kamose and Ahmose I. Just as the Bible says that there were 80 years from the birth of Moses till the Exodus.

See - Archeological Dating of Thera (http://bsa.academia.edu/AlexanderMacGillivray/Papers/256144/The_Minoan_Santorini_eruption_and_tsunami_deposits _in_Crete_Palaikastro_Geological_archaeological_14 C_dating_and_Egyptian_chronology)

Craig.Paardekooper
03-02-2011, 01:46 PM
Finally, the Biblical dating of the Exodus.

Here is an article I wrote before on the dating of the Exodus based solely on the Bible. The date for Solomons reign is obtained by counting the reigns of each of the Kings from the time of the Babylonian Exile backwards. According to 1 Kings the Exodus was 480 years before the 4th year of Solomons reign, so the period of Judges must have had overlapping reigns. The date of the Exodus comes to 1491 B.C.

Exodus Date (http://www.craigdemo.co.uk/dating_of_the_exodus.htm)

Craig.Paardekooper
03-03-2011, 02:25 PM
It is interesting that ALL the ancient historians from Greece, Egypt, and Palestine as well as early Christian historians consistently associate the Exodus with the reigns of Ahmose and Thutmosis -

1. Theophilus


And Moses, becoming the leader of the Jews, as we have already stated, was expelled from the land of Egypt by the king, Pharaoh, whose name was Amasis (Ahmose)....and been enslaved by king Tethmosis , as already said, built for him strong cities, Peitho, and Rameses, and On, which is Heliopolis (Book 3, Chapter 20; Ante-Nicene Fathers 1975, Vol.II, 117).

2. Manetho


Manetho describes the rise of the Hyksos by writing: Tutimaeus. In his reign, for what cause I know not, a blast of God smote us; and unexpectedly, from the regions of the East, invaders of obscure race marched in confidence of victory against our land. By main force they easily seized it without striking a blow; and having overpowered the rulers of the land, they burned our cities ruthlessly, razed to the ground the temples of the gods, and treated all the natives with a cruel hostility, massacring some and leading into slavery the wives and children of others. Finally, they appointed as king one of their number whose name was Salitis. He had his seat at Memphis, levying tribute from Upper and Lower Egypt, and always leaving garrisons behind in the most advantageous positions (1940, 79-81).

3. Herodotus

Herodotus is known as the father of history. He was a Greek writer born in Asia Minor about 484 BC He traveled extensively in Asia Minor, Babylon, Egypt, and Greece. Herodotus wrote Histories which was later divided into nine books. Book Two deals with the history and culture of Egypt.


Herodotus describes the Hyksos period by saying: Thus they reckon that for a hundred and six years Egypt was in great misery and the temples so long shut were never opened. So much do the people hate the memory of these two kings that they do not greatly wish to name them, and call the pyramids after the shepherd Philitis, who then pastured his flocks in this place (Book ii, 128; 1920, 431).

Eusebius in his book The Preparation for the Gospel tries to show the antiquity of the Jews by referring to what Herodotus had said indirectly.


Eusebius says: Herodotus also has made mention of this revolt and of Amosis in his second Book; and, in a certain way, of the Jews themselves, enumerating them among those who practice circumcision, and calling them the Assyrians in Palestine, perhaps on account of Abraham (1981, 525-26; Herodotus 1920, 319; Book ii, 36).

4. Apion


And Apion the son of Poseidonius, the most laborious of grammarians, in his book Against the Jews, and in his fourth book of his History, says that in the time of Inachus king of Argos, when Amosis reigned over Egypt, the Jews revolted under the leadership of Moses. And Herodotus also makes mention of this revolt, and of Amosis, in his second book (Ante-Nicene Fathers 1975, Vol.VI, 134).

5. Ptolemy


Now this Ptolemaeus (Ptolemy) was a priest, who published The Acts of the Kings of Egypt in three whole books, and says that the departure of the Jews out of Egypt under Moses as their leader took place in the time of Amosis king of Egypt; from which it is clearly seen that Moses flourished in the time of Inachus (1981, 525)

6. Clement


And whether the Assyrian history is many years earlier than the Hellenic, will appear from what Ctesias says. In the four hundred and second year of the Assyrian empire, and in the thiry-second year of the reign of Beluchus the eight, the movement of Moses out of Egypt took place in the time of Amosis King of Egypt, and of Inachus king of Argos (1981, 533).

7. Tatian

He quotes Manetho to show that the Jews departed from Egypt in the time of king Ahmose who lived at the same time as Inachus who is four hundred years earlier than the Trojan War which happened 407 years before the Olympiads started (Ante-Nicene Fathers 1975, Vol.2, 80-1).

These historians provide testimony that is a STRONG confirmation that the drive to expel the Semites began in the reign of Ahmose I (1570 B.C) and was completed in the reign of Thutmosis I (1490 B.C)

Craig.Paardekooper
03-03-2011, 03:05 PM
Diodorus of Sicily

Diodorus was born in Agyrium, Sicily before 100 BC He traveled widely and wrote a general history in 40 books which have only partly survived.


Diodorus writes: Now that we are about to record the war against the Jews, we consider it appropriate to give first a summary count of the establishment of the nation, from its origins, and of the practices observed among them. When in ancient times a pestilence arose in Egypt, the common people ascribed their troubles to the workings of a divine agency; for indeed with many strangers of all sorts dwelling in their midst and practicing different rites of religion and sacrifice, their own traditional observances in honour of the gods had fallen into disuse. Hence the natives of the land surmised that unless they removed the foreigners, their troubles would never be resolved. At once, therefore, the aliens were driven from the country, and the most outstanding and active among them banded together and, as some say, were cast ashore in Greece and certain other regions; their leaders were notable men, chief among them being Danaus and Cadmus. But the greater number were driven into what is now called Judaea, which is not far distant from Egypt and was at that time utterly uninhabited. The colony was headed by a man called Moses, outstanding both for his wisdom and for his courage. On taking possession of the land he founded, besides other cities, one that is now the most renowned of all, called Jerusalem. In addition he established the temple that they hold in chief veneration, instituted their forms of worship and ritual, drew up their laws and ordered their political institutions. He also divided them into twelve tribes, since this is regarded as the most perfect number and corresponds to the number of months that make up a year. But he had no images whatsoever of the gods made for them, being of the opinion that God is not in human form (Book XL.3; 279-283).

Diodorus agrees with the Bible that there was a plague in Egypt, the Jews led by Moses were expelled from Egypt, they took possession of the land of Judaea, and set up a temple. The description of "many strangers of all sorts dwelling in their midst and practicing different rites of religion and sacrifice, their own traditional observances in honour of the gods had fallen into disuse" best pictures the Hyksos period. The Hyksos worshipped the god Seth who was identified with the Canaanite Baal. The other gods of Egypt were not as important.

Clinton's "Fasti Hellenici" dates the Cadmus expedition to 310 years before the fall of Troy (Troy fell 408 years before the first Olympiad = 1183 B.C., so the Cadmus expedition occurred in 1493 B.C.


" It is said of Cadmus that he came originally from Egypt in company with Phoenix :" Euseb. Chron.
" Eusebius in another place mentions the arrival of Cadmus with a company of
Saitae. They founded Athens and Thebes. Chron. p. 14. The ancient Atheni-
ans worshipped Isis, and were in their looks and manners particularly like the
Egyptians. Diod. I. p. 24—26^"
Fast Hellenici p 32


Cadmus is placed by the Parian Marble 268 years before the first Theban war and 310 before the fall of Troy'. He is a little before Danails in the Marble F H p 85


According to Haydn's Dictionary of Dates, Cadmus arrived in Greece in 1493 B.C. and founded the city of Thebes in Greece in 1490 B.C. -


Arrival of Cadmus, founder of Cadmea (Hales,
1494 ; Clinton, 1313) .... B.C. 1493


THEBES
(the capital of the country successively called Aonia, Messapia, Ogygia, Hyantis, and
Bceotia) was called Cadmeis, from Cadmus, its founder, 1493 B.C.


ASYLUMS, OR PRIVILEGED PLACES, at first were places of refuge for those who by
accident or necessity had done things that rendered them obnoxious to the law. God com-
manded the Jews to build certain cities for this purpose, 1451 B.C., Numbers xxv. The
posterity of Hercules are said to have built one at Athens, to protect themselves against such
as their father had irritated. Cadmus built one at Thebes, 1490 B.C., and .Romulus one at
Mount Palatine, 751 B.C. See Sanctuaries.


The following King Lists provide a date for Danaus. It can be seen that he reigned as an Argive King in Greece only 15 years after setting out from Egypt with Cadmus.

The Argive King Lists compiled by Castor
Now we will list the kings of the Argives, begining with Inachus and ending with Sthenelus the son of
Crotopus. These kings reigned for a total of 382 years, until Sthenelus was expelled by Danaus, who
seized control of Argos. The descendants of Danaus ruled Argos, ending with Eurysthenes, the son of
Sthenelus, the son of Perseus. After Eurysthenes, the descendants of Pelops ruled Argos. The duration
of the reign of the kings of the Danaidae was 162 years. The duration of the reign of the Pelopidae was
105 years, starting with Atreus, and ending with Penthilus, Tisamenus and Cometes the son of Orestes,
in whose time the invasion of the Heracleidae occurred.
The dates of each of the Argive kings are as follows.

1679 Inarchus 50/2
1654 Phoroneus 60/2
1624 Apis 35/2
1606.5 Argus 70/2
1571.5 Criasus 54/2
1544.5 Phorbas 35/2
1527 Triopas 46/2
1504 Crotopus 21
1483 Sthenelus 11
1472 Danaus 50
1422 Lynceus 41
1381 Abas 23
1358 Proetus 17
1341 Acrisius 31
1310 Eurestheus 45
1265 Atreus Thyestes 65
1200-1183 Agamemnon 17
1183-1176 Aegisthus [7/8]
1176-1175 Orestes 15 (or 18)
1175-1174 <no king>
1174-1173 Orestes (back from exile)
1173-1171 Aletes (usurper)
1171-1158 Orestes (restored)

The Argive King Lists compiled by Pausanius

1675 Inarchus
1650 Phoroneus
1625 Apis <Niobe>, Car
1600 Argus
1575 Peirasus, Phorbas
1550 Triopas, Lelex
1525 Iasus, Agenor, Pelasgus
1500 Io, Crotopus
1475 Sthenelas
1450 Gelanor, Danaus
1425 Lynceus
1400 Abas
1375 Acrisius, Proetus
1350 Danae, Magaphantes
1225 Perseus
1300 Electryon
1275 Alkmene + (Amphytrion), Sthenelus
1250 Eurestheus
1225 Atreus
1200 Agamemnon


Argive Kings Compiled by Syncellus

1679.5 Inachus 56/2
1651.5 Phoroneus 60/2
1621.5 Apis 35/2
1604 Argus 70/2
1569 Criasus 55/2
1541.5 Phorbas 25/2
1529 Triopas 36/2
1511 Crotopus 24/2
1499 Sthenelus 11
1488 Danaus 58
1430 Lynceus 35
1395 Abas 37
1358-1341 Proetus 17

Argive Kings Compiled by Tatian

1675 Inachus
1650 Phoroneus
1625 Apis
1600 Criasis {or Argeius}
1575 Triopas {or Criasis}
1550 Argeius {or Phorbas}
1525 Phorbas {or Triopas}
1500 Crotopas
1475 Sthenelaus
1450 Danaus
1425 Lynceus
1400 Proetus {or Abas}
1375 Abas {or Proetus}
1350 Acrisius
1325 Perseus
1300 Sthenelaus
1275 Eurystheus
1250 Atreus
1225 Thyestes
1200 Agamemnon

TimeLine Compiled by Tatian

1650 New Order, Ogygus at Athens, First deluge. [Phoroneus]
1580 Reign of Amosis 400 years or 20 generations before the Troy was taken. [Inachus]
1525 Actaeus at Athens, Country named Actaea prior to being called Attica. [Phorbas]
1500 Reign of Cecrops in Athens, Prometheus and Epimetheus and Arias and Io. [Triopas]
1475 The coming of Danaus into Peloponnesusand the return of Europa from Phoenicia to
Crete. [Sthenelaus]
1440 Burning of Phaethon, Flood of Deucalion. [Crotopas]
1425 Abduction of Core, Founding of the temple in Eleusis, Triptolemus, and the coming of
Cadmus to Thebesand the reign of Minos. [Lynceus]
1420 Reign of Amphictyon and the founding of Dardania by Dardanus. [Sthenelaus]

Argive Kings Compiled by Hyginus

1675 Inachus
1650 Phoroneus
1625 Niobe, Apis
1600 Argus
1575 Peranthus
1550 Triopas
1525 (Agenor)
1500 Pelasgus, (Belus)
1475 Danaus
1450
1425
1400
1375 Acrisius + (Aganippe)
1350 Danae
1325 Perseus (Tantalus)
1300 Pelops
1275 Thyestes
1250 Atreus
1225 Agamemnon
1200 Aegisthus
1175 Orestes
1150 Aletes
1125 Tisamenus, (Aristodemus)
1100 Temenus, (Eurystheus)
1075 Clytus, (Alexander)

According to Haydn's Dictionary of Dates, Haydn's Dictionary of Dates (http://www.archive.org/stream/haydnsdictionary00haydrich/haydnsdictionary00haydrich_djvu.txt), Danaus was King of Argos in 1474 B.C. Herodotus refers to the Greeks as Danai because they descend from the tribe of Danaus - the Hebrew tribe of Dan.


The first ship (probably a galley) was brought from Egypt to Greece, by Danaus, 1485 B.C. Haydn's

So Haydn dates the arrival of Danaus in Greece to 1485 B.C. - very close to Usshers date for the Hebrew Exodus.

Richard Amiel McGough
03-03-2011, 07:28 PM
Finally, the Biblical dating of the Exodus.

Here is an article I wrote before on the dating of the Exodus based solely on the Bible. The date for Solomons reign is obtained by counting the reigns of each of the Kings from the time of the Babylonian Exile backwards. According to 1 Kings the Exodus was 480 years before the 4th year of Solomons reign, so the period of Judges must have had overlapping reigns. The date of the Exodus comes to 1491 B.C.

Exodus Date (http://www.craigdemo.co.uk/dating_of_the_exodus.htm)
Thanks Craig. I can see your logic, but I do not think it is a straightforward as you claim. I say this because there is no consensus amongst scholars or believers as to those dates. There appears to be some real problems with the "straightforward reading" of the text.

Craig.Paardekooper
03-14-2011, 02:09 PM
Ussher dates the "death" of Enoch to 3012 B.C. The Exodus Passover actually occurs precisely midway between Enoch's translation and Christ' Resurrection. From Enoch to the Exodus there are 1521 years or 555555 days. Similarly from Exodus to Christ there are 1521 years or 555555 days. It is curious that the Exodus should occur at the midpoint.

In the time of Enoch the Fallen Angels co-inhabited with mankind. Consequently God passed judgement and placed the angels in a prison for 70 generations until the time of Christ.

The Exodus splits the period of 70 generations into two equal parts - the latter part being characterised by grace - God provided that the blood of animals can substitute for a sinner - culminating in the atoning sacrifice of Christ.

http://www.craigdemo.co.uk/exodus.jpg

Infact, the midpoint of the part characterised by grace, is the Gospel of Isaiah - containing a vision of the Suffering Servant - the crucified Christ.

This whole pattern telescopes in repeatedly, through a series of balances -

1. The 70 generations split into a judgement part and a grace part
2. The centre of the grace part is the Book of Isaiah
3. The Book of Isaiah has a judgement part and a grace part
4. The centre of the grace part is the Suffering Servant - the crucified Christ.

Craig.Paardekooper
03-22-2011, 03:24 AM
The moral or legal code of the ancient Hebrews may not have been their invention since surrounding nations had similar codes. However, the Hebrews did introduce monotheism, and the idea that God is beyond time and space and the idea that God is moral.

Prior to the Hebrews, the surrounding nations believed in gods who were finite - having a birth (ie theogeny) - and who were often in conflict with each other. Consequently, their religions were amoral. For example Olympian gods behaved like adolescents - always up to mischief, and always competing against each other.

In contract, the Hebrews introduced a supreme God who was holy, and who demanded repentance from sin.


Monotheism - the One God - the Holy God

One of the results of introducing a moral/holy God was that external legal codes were now enforced by a moral God. Before all this, all there was were man-made laws that were difficult to enforce, since if you were not caught then there was no punishment. The gods themselves were always at war with one another and quite immoral, so how could the gods underwrite social law. However, a single, all-powerful and moral God could underwrite social law. You can never escape punishment - because God is always watching.

By introducing a single moral God, the Hebrews had introduced perhaps one of the strongest possible ways of enforcing good behaviour. As a consequence, it is highly probable that the Hebrews were more law abiding than the surrounding nations - they were a holy people. This would have made them fairly distinct as a people. The ancient world was full of moral relativity. In such a world the Hebrews would have stood out like "a nun in a brothel". This would also explain why they were so intollerant of other gods. It was not just a case of "your god is different from mine" - it was because Yahweh was the only moral god.

A God such as Yahweh would not appeal to self-interest, or ultimately even tribal interests. The moral laws are enforced even if they destroyed Israel itself. Also, since such a God also is seen as universal - and God of all the earth - then this too negates appeal to self interest or tribal interests.

Because Yahweh demanded a change in behaviour from His people, this would have internalized their commitment to Yahweh, leading to a much stronger religion than one that made no behavioural demands on it's people.

So, in a way, the Hebrews greatest weapon was this Idea - a distinct, powerful idea that enforced Law, leveraged people away from self-interest and gained their commitment. The Hebrews were not strong as a fighting group, but their Idea would persist forever.

The Alphabet

Strangely enough, the Hebrews also seem to have invented the alphabet. According to Wikipedia, all modern alphabets originate from the Proto-Sinaitic alphabet, which itself was introduced by the Semites while they were dwelling in Egypt, and with the Exodus, this alphabet was spread to the Canaanites, and through Greece.

First Alphabet (http://www.ancientscripts.com/alphabet.html)

Infact, as I wrote earlier in this thread, the Greeks ascribe the creation of their alphabet to Danaus and Cadmus, who were Semites, and who brought it with them from Egypt about 1490 B.C..

We refer to the Bible as the Word, and say "In the Beginning was the Word". Given this, it seems curious that Genesis was first written in Proto-Sinaitic - the first alphabet.

It is extraordinary that the Semites who were enslaved to the Egyptians, should be the originators of our modern alphabets. This puts the Exodus in a new perspective. A big mystery surrounds the Proto-Sinaitic inscriptions that have been found in the Sinai. Some of these inscriptions seem to contain eye-witness accounts of the Exodus, though their translation is not complete.

Many of these Proto-Sinaitic scripts have been found on a mountain in the Sinai that the Egyptians dedicated to the Goddess Hathor - the Great Cow. Could this be the golden Calf to whom the Hebrews made sacrifice?

Rose
03-22-2011, 07:51 AM
Monotheism - the One God - the Holy God

One of the results of introducing a moral/holy God was that external legal codes were now enforced by a moral God. Before all this, all there was were man-made laws that were difficult to enforce, since if you were not caught then there was no punishment. The gods themselves were always at war with one another and quite immoral, so how could the gods underwrite social law. However, a single, all-powerful and moral God could underwrite social law. You can never escape punishment - because God is always watching.

By introducing a single moral God, the Hebrews had introduced perhaps one of the strongest possible ways of enforcing good behaviour. As a consequence, it is highly probable that the Hebrews were more law abiding than the surrounding nations - they were a holy people. This would have made them fairly distinct as a people. The ancient world was full of moral relativity. In such a world the Hebrews would have stood out like "a nun in a brothel". This would also explain why they were so intollerant of other gods. It was not just a case of "your god is different from mine" - it was because Yahweh was the only moral god.

A God such as Yahweh would not appeal to self-interest, or ultimately even tribal interests. The moral laws are enforced even if they destroyed Israel itself. Also, since such a God also is seen as universal - and God of all the earth - then this too negates appeal to self interest or tribal interests.

Because Yahweh demanded a change in behaviour from His people, this would have internalized their commitment to Yahweh, leading to a much stronger religion than one that made no behavioural demands on it's people.

So, in a way, the Hebrews greatest weapon was this Idea - a distinct, powerful idea that enforced Law, leveraged people away from self-interest and gained their commitment. The Hebrews were not strong as a fighting group, but their Idea would persist forever.


Hi Craig,

You have me a bit confused by what you define as "moral"? On the one hand you attribute morality to Yahweh, but on the other hand you state that the gods of the other cultures were immoral. :confused: Where do you get your foundation for judging what is moral or immoral? The picture that is portrayed of Yahweh in the Old Testament as far as being a jealous god who punishes people and requires sacrifices is not any different than the many gods who were worshiped by the surrounding nations. When you speak of the gods always being at war with one another the same holds true for the historic record of the Israelite's who were always fighting and killing people, so where does your idea of morality come from? Take for instance the Promised land that Yahweh gave to the Hebrews....it was a land inhabited with many people who were already living there....why couldn't Yahweh give the Hebrews a land on which nobody lived? Doesn't seem very moral to me....I would compare it to what happened here in America with the native American Indians.

The Code of Hammurabi was a high level social law which many scholars believe was the foundation for the Jewish law since it was written hundreds of years before Moses and the Ten Commandments, so people did have social laws before belief in Yahweh came along.

These are just some of the problems that can't be swept under the rug....they must be addressed and dealt with. People make judgment and morality calls all the time, and in order to do so we must have a moral foundation with which to draw from and it doesn't seem to me like Yahweh's morality was any different then that of the other ancient peoples.

Blessings,
Rose

Craig.Paardekooper
03-22-2011, 09:39 AM
You have me a bit confused by what you define as "moral"? On the one hand you attribute morality to Yahweh, but on the other hand you state that the gods of the other cultures were immoral. Where do you get your foundation for judging what is moral or immoral?

Rather than use the word "moral" I should say that God is a law enforcer, whilst the gods of other nations were not. The gods of other nations made no requirement upon their followers to behave in accordance with any social laws. They were capricious.

The Hebrew God upheld the social laws that had been formulated by the Hebrews, the gods of other cultures had no such interest in law, justice, righteousness or sin.

This is precisely the idea of a lawful and just God. In concept, atleast, a just God is very different from a capricious adolescent god. In theory atleast, God is on the side of a settled and lawful society, rather than promoting egotism and anarchy.

Also the other nations had many gods rather than one god. These gods contradicted each other - which provided no basis for law enforcement.




The picture that is portrayed of Yahweh in the Old Testament as far as being a jealous god who punishes people and requires sacrifices is not any different than the many gods who were worshiped by the surrounding nations.

Yahweh claims to be the ONLY supreme God in the whole universe. The gods of other nations never claimed this. They only claim to be one amongst many. That's why the Yale lecturers say that the surrounding nations were polytheistic, and why the Hebrews were monotheistic.

If Yahweh is the One supreme God, AND if NONE of the other gods claim to be the One Supreme God, then that is why He uses the word Jealous. Because it would be His right to claim all worship. Period.

Sacrifice was to atone for sin, something which the gods of other nations did not require atall, since those gods had no interest in holiness or sin.

Foreign gods only required sacrifice as a "bribe" to send rain on time etc. This was unrelated to the good behaviour of followers, or to sin.


When you speak of the gods always being at war with one another the same holds true for the historic record of the Israelite's who were always fighting and killing people, so where does your idea of morality come from? Take for instance the Promised land that Yahweh gave to the Hebrews....it was a land inhabited with many people who were already living there....why couldn't Yahweh give the Hebrews a land on which nobody lived? Doesn't seem very moral to me....I would compare it to what happened here in America with the native American Indians.



The Bible doesn't say that God wanted to give them an empty land. He wanted to give them the land in Canaan, BECAUSE He wanted to use them as His instrument to remove the Nephalim.

This was no easy task for the Israelites either. They were up against giants, and it terrified them. God was forcing them to fight an enemy that was not just physically intimidating, but also sinister. According to the Bible the Nephalim were the offspring of the fallen angels - literally the children of Satan !! OK it is far fetched, but that is what the Bible claims. They knew the dark arts -they could literally get under your skin. This wasn't a normal war. It was the war of the children of God against the children of the fallen angels. Atleast that is what the Bible appears to imply.

You cannot compare it to the displacement of human beings, since the Bible story makes a consistent claim that they were the Nephalim.

And the Isrealites were not always at war with everyone. After they half completed the conquest of the NEphilim, they settled down and became an insignificant military power until they were squashed by the Assyrians in 721 B.C., about 300 years later.


The Code of Hammurabi was a high level social law which many scholars believe was the foundation for the Jewish law since it was written hundreds of years before Moses and the Ten Commandments, so people did have social laws before belief in Yahweh came along.


Of course people have social laws. Human beings are rational and can come up with a set of laws quite easily that are reasonable.

The problem for other nations was in enforcing those laws. There was not much of a police force in those days. If you didn't like someone, and you "wacked" them then the chances are that you would get away with it. Also the gods were as bad as the criminals in many ways. So people's attitude to laws in general, no matter how fancy and reasonable the laws were, was relative.

When Moses introduced the idea of One Holy God interested in Law-abiding people, this was obviously a powerful way of making people obey the laws. The idea was that God was watching them always and would punish them if they disobeyed, so under such a system people will tend to be more law abiding. This is a psychological process. It put the fear of God in people - think Amish - those people don't even swear.

After a while, compliance with a legal system will become internalized, which is an important step for the development of an ethic based on empathy and compassion. See Kolbergs stages of Moral Development.

I have absolutely no doubt that at any time in human history, good old rational humans can come up with the nicest set of laws that they like. The thing is, how do you get them to obey the laws that they come up with. The Hebrew answer was to introduce an all-powerful single God who punished lawbreakers.

And it worked. The Hebrews became obsessed with Law. Compared to other nations they were far more law-abiding. That would be the natural psychological effect of being under such a system.

Hammurabi had a law code, but the creation of a law code is quite a simple thing to do. Common sense and rationality will soon produce a basic set of rules. Having a law code was not enough, however. Moses gave his people the reason to obey it - an all-powerful God who punishes law-breakers.

That is Moses innovation. Monotheism lends itself to the formation of a consistent law enforcement. Too many gods spoil the broth, especially when the gods have no interest in the recipe.



Summing up (in as simple a way as possible)

Moses introduced a Supreme God who punished law breakers. (compared to a crowd of egotistical gods who were not bothered about law)

This caused people to be more law abiding. Hence they became God's holy people.

Because God WAS the One and Only Supreme God, he was rightly annoyed when people worshipped the God of rain, or the God of soil etc.

The religious revolution that Moses headed was VERY distinct from the religions of surrounding nations - because -

1. it was monotheistic
2. the God was concerned with Law and sin

This alone was enough to produce a theocracy where people were law abiding.

The Bible tells us that God enforced the Law. The Bible tells us that God gave the law

Rose
03-22-2011, 10:36 AM
The Bible doesn't say that God wanted to give them an empty land. He wanted to give them the land in Canaan, BECAUSE He wanted to use them as His instrument to remove the Nephalim.

This was no easy task for the Israelites either. They were up against giants, and it terrified them. God was forcing them to fight an enemy that was not just physically intimidating, but also sinister. According to the Bible the Nephalim were the offspring of the fallen angels - literally the children of Satan !! OK it is far fetched, but that is what the Bible claims. They knew the dark arts -they could literally get under your skin. This wasn't a normal war. It was the war of the children of God against the children of the fallen angels. Atleast that is what the Bible appears to imply.

You cannot compare it to the displacement of human beings, since the Bible story makes a consistent claim that they were the Nephalim.

The Bible implies that the reason Yahweh sent the flood was in part to rid the world of the Nephalim, so why didn't Yahweh finish the job he set out to do in the flood story? Seems a bit odd that he would require mere humans to complete a job he started. Also, most of the slaughter of pagan peoples at the hands of the Hebrews was not Nephalim, but rather many, many innocent women and children who just happened to be Canaanites, or Medianites or some other race of people.

Sounds to me like the Hebrews replaced the many gods of pagan cultures with the concepts of Satan and demons, and Nephalim.







Summing up (in as simple a way as possible)

Moses introduced a Supreme God who punished law breakers. (compared to a crowd of egotistical gods who were not bothered about law)

This caused people to be more law abiding. Hence they became God's holy people.

Because God WAS the One and Only Supreme God, he was rightly annoyed when people worshipped the God of rain, or the God of soil etc.

God had planned for quite sometime to destroy the inhabitants of Canaan, and chose to USE the Hebrews to do this.

It is disputable that the Canaanite Nephilim had any right to the Land, since God had sent the Flood only 900 years earlier to destroy the Nephilim from the face of the earth. If they were the offspring of Satan and the Fallen angels, then just maybe God had a reason for wanting them gone. Multiply Damien Omen by a few hundred thousand and you get the Biblical picture.

Obviously we cannot generalize from this to argue -

1. That we should commit genocide aginst humans
2. That we should commit genocide aginst even Nephilim unless God commands it
3. or that we'd even want to commit genocide against giant aliens who could tear your arms off without breaking a sweat.

Most of the Israelites infact absolutely did not want to attack the Nephilim. They were scared, and chose to spend 40 years in a desert rather than do it.

Why in the world would the one and only Yahweh, creator of the universe be annoyed with the ignorance of the people he created....annoyance is a human quality....it would be like a parent being annoyed with their 2 year old because they can't read a book, or do math.:p

All in all, the whole idea of the Hebrew God Yahweh sounds like their solution to transitioning from polytheistic worship to monotheistic worship while still retaining many of the mythological ideas of their pagan neighbors.

Rose

Craig.Paardekooper
03-22-2011, 12:31 PM
Hello Rose


The Bible implies that the reason Yahweh sent the flood was in part to rid the world of the Nephalim, so why didn't Yahweh finish the job he set out to do in the flood story? Seems a bit odd that he would require mere humans to complete a job he started. Also, most of the slaughter of pagan peoples at the hands of the Hebrews was not Nephalim, but rather many, many innocent women and children who just happened to be Canaanites, or Medianites or some other race of people.

Sounds to me like the Hebrews replaced the many gods of pagan cultures with the concepts of Satan and demons, and Nephalim.


God did destroy all he Nephilim before the Flood, so how do we get new ones after the Flood?

Well, fallen angels continued to mix with people after the Flood. Genesis 6 actually states this clearly.

I cannot possible prove that every single person in Canaan was a Nephilim. All I can say is that the primary thrust of Joshuas campaign was to target the Nephilim cities. I cannot specify how interlinked the Nephilim were with other local tribes. Maybe you could tell me.

It should be remembered just how dangerous the Nephilim and the fallen angels were - according to the Bible, only 900 years earlier, they had created such a bad situation that God had been compelled to wipe the earth clean and start creation almost from scratch. It had also caused a massive drop in our own lifespans - now we only live a tenth as long as before.


Sounds to me like the Hebrews replaced the many gods of pagan cultures with the concepts of Satan and demons, and Nephalim.


Sounds to me like you are not aware of the whole Jewish tradition about Enoch, the 70 generations that lead right up to Christs generation, the drop in longevity after the Flood and the evidence for giants found across the earth. These things were not invented. They actually happened. They were not just concepts. As much as it is shocking to our modern sanitized minds, we are living on a really wierd planet with a wierd history. THings then were not atall like they are now. Though, this is not as wierd as finding pretty mathematical patterns in the genetic code. Concerning our past, nothing would surprise me.


Why in the world would the one and only Yahweh, creator of the universe be annoyed with the ignorance of the people he created....annoyance is a human quality....it would be like a parent being annoyed with their 2 year old because they can't read a book, or do math.

All in all, the whole idea of the Hebrew God Yahweh sounds like their solution to transitioning from polytheistic worship to monotheistic worship while still retaining many of the mythological ideas of their pagan neighbors.



Negative emotions of anger, hate and sadness, are God's reactions against sin. Even Jesus got angry with the money lenders in the Temple. No contradiction there. And who is he angry with about worshiping false gods - His own people - who had witnessed all the miracles etc.

Yes it was a transition from polytheism to monotheism, a radical transition - more of a revolution. Though I would say that Yahweh was completely unlike the pagan gods -

Yahweh had no form for shape - and could not be represented by any image
Yahweh was transcendent and outside of time and space
Yahweh was eternal, unborn and uncreated
Yahweh was deeply concerned with sin

pagan gods had a shape or images
pagan gods were born - had theogonies
pagan gods were not concerned about sin
pagan gods were more like angels or demigods

1. So it was quite a radical revolution - a completely different God

2. Blood atonement for sin was also unique

3. They introduced the alphabet


So it is not true to say that they simply imported everything from other cultures, when clearly they did not.

Craig.Paardekooper
03-22-2011, 02:06 PM
Most of the Laws of the Torah are common sense, and similar to those of other nations of their time. They are what any reasonable person of that time could come up with.

The ONLY really unique aspects in the whole Torah are -

1. The idea that Yahweh is the One and only Supreme God
2. That God is concerned about our sinful behaviour
3. That sacrifice is for the forgiveness of sins, so we can approach Yahweh

These are the only NEW things which were not therefore copied from other peoples.

The content of the Law itself does not stand out as anything special. It is mainly common sense. However the Hebrews felt happy to interpret the key principles of God's laws, to see how they would apply in everyday situations. Sometimes this interpretation sounds silly or unjust, because primitive people were interpreting a general principle in an erroneous way, or applying a general principle to the wrong situation. So, some derived or secondary laws or traditions fall into this category.

God enforced the Laws He had given, which meant that the Hebrews became very law-abiding in relation to their own people. It was a theocracy.

Why did God not fight His own battles in Canaan? Well He did. The only reason that the Hebrews managed to defeat the Nephilim was BECAUSE God was fighting for them. All that time until David. Infact the battle between David and Goliath graphically depicts the odds.

God was their shield.

That's why when David decided that he nolonger needed God to fight for him, and took a census, God showed David what would happen without His protection.

Craig.Paardekooper
03-22-2011, 02:40 PM
Here is what Montepython might say:


All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what have the Hebrews ever given us in return?

Xerxes: The alphabet.

Reg: Oh yeah, yeah they gave us that. Yeah. That's true.

Masked Activist: And the Law!

Stan: Oh yes... Law, Reg, you remember what the city used to be like.

Reg: All right, I'll grant you that the alphabet and the Law are two things that the Hebrews have done...

Matthias: And grace...

Reg: (sharply) Well yes obviously grace... grace goes without saying. But apart from the alphabet, the law and grace...

Another Masked Activist: Jesus Christ...

Other Masked Voices: forgiveness... justice... something to believe in...

Reg: Yes... all right, fair enough...

Activist Near Front: And the holidays...

Omnes: Oh yes! True!

Francis: Yeah. That's something we'd really miss if the Hebrews left, Reg.

Masked Activist at Back: Cleansing baths!

Stan: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now.

Francis: Yes, they certainly know how to keep order... (general nodding)... let's face it, they're the only ones who could in a place like this.

(more general murmurs of agreement)

Reg: All right... all right... but apart from the alphabet and law and grace and forgiveness and justice and something to believe in and baths and public order... what have the Hebrews done for us?

Xerxes: Eternal life!

Reg: (very angry, he's not having a good meeting at all) What!? Oh... (scornfully) Eternal life, yes... shut up!

Rose
03-22-2011, 07:58 PM
Hello Rose


Sounds to me like you are not aware of the whole Jewish tradition about Enoch, the 70 generations that lead right up to Christs generation, the drop in longevity after the Flood and the evidence for giants found across the earth. These things were not invented. They actually happened. They were not just concepts. As much as it is shocking to our modern sanitized minds, we are living on a really wierd planet with a wierd history. THings then were not atall like they are now. Though, this is not as wierd as finding pretty mathematical patterns in the genetic code. Concerning our past, nothing would surprise me.

Hi Craig,

I am aware of the Jewish traditions about Enoch, but I am very skeptical of there being any historical value to those traditions. I don't believe there is any extra-biblical evidence for the existence of giants, or the longevity of humans prior to the flood....if there ever even was a flood. There are so many parallel flood stories that come from other cultures much older than the Hebrews that I have little faith the Biblical flood story is anything more than a myth that the Hebrew adopted from their neighbors.




Negative emotions of anger, hate and sadness, are God's reactions against sin. Even Jesus got angry with the money lenders in the Temple. No contradiction there. And who is he angry with about worshiping false gods - His own people - who had witnessed all the miracles etc.

Yes it was a transition from polytheism to monotheism, a radical transition - more of a revolution. Though I would say that Yahweh was completely unlike the pagan gods -

Yahweh had no form for shape - and could not be represented by any image
Yahweh was transcendent and outside of time and space
Yahweh was eternal, unborn and uncreated
Yahweh was deeply concerned with sin

pagan gods had a shape or images
pagan gods were born - had theogonies
pagan gods were not concerned about sin
pagan gods were more like angels or demigods

1. So it was quite a radical revolution - a completely different God

2. Blood atonement for sin was also unique

3. They introduced the alphabet


So it is not true to say that they simply imported everything from other cultures, when clearly they did not.

Yes, I totally believe that the idea of one creator god called Yahweh who has always existed was a revolutionary concept, and that's what it took to break away for the commonly held mythologies of the time, but that does not in and of itself mean that this new radical monotheistic view of there being only one god who created all things is true.

Just because the core ideas are unique and even an improvement over existing ideas doesn't mean that much of what the Hebrews incorporated into their new belief system didn't come from the myths of surrounding cultures....and we know that it did from the written records of other civilizations that existed hundreds of year before the Hebrews. Other cultures even had written languages "cuneiform" that have been found recorded on numerous tablets that date back many hundreds of years before Abraham.

My main point is that just because we have a written record in the Bible of how Yahweh created the heavens and the earth and mankind, does not necessarily mean that it is true, anymore than we would consider the myths that are recorded on the cuneiform tablets to be true.

Blessings,
Rose

Rose
03-22-2011, 09:08 PM
God enforced the Laws He had given, which meant that the Hebrews became very law-abiding in relation to their own people. It was a theocracy.

Why did God not fight His own battles in Canaan? Well He did. The only reason that the Hebrews managed to defeat the Nephilim was BECAUSE God was fighting for them. All that time until David. Infact the battle between David and Goliath graphically depicts the odds.

God was their shield.

That's why when David decided that he nolonger needed God to fight for him, and took a census, God showed David what would happen without His protection.

Hi Craig

The only thing we know about Yahweh enforcing his laws is what we read recorded in the Bible. The same holds true for all the other OT stories of giants and battles, even the census that David supposedly took that cost the lives of 70,000 Hebrews is extremely ambiguous and has conflicting accounts.

The creator of the heavens and the earth should have no problem in conveying to his creation the exact nature of his being with no ambiguity....so, why does the Bible not present us with a clear picture. :confused:

Rose

Craig.Paardekooper
03-23-2011, 02:21 AM
I am aware of the Jewish traditions about Enoch, but I am very skeptical of there being any historical value to those traditions. I don't believe there is any extra-biblical evidence for the existence of giants, or the longevity of humans prior to the flood....if there ever even was a flood. There are so many parallel flood stories that come from other cultures much older than the Hebrews that I have little faith the Biblical flood story is anything more than a myth that the Hebrew adopted from their neighbors.



Seems to me that you are skeptical of almost everything about the Bible -

You don't believe in Yahweh, Moses, the Law, Exodus, The Flood. Well Jesus believed in all these things.

To find out for yourself though is quite hard. To research it properly and find the truth will take up decades of your life. You realise that don't you? Are you willing to make that commitment?

Now to find the answer to just one of your questions - "did people live much longer in the past" - will require you to study the following -

1. The ancient king lists of ALL civilizations including Egyptian, Greek, Chinese, Indian, Sumerian, Babylonian, Meso-American

2. Archaeological artifacts dating back to these times

3. Fossil record of creatures from the late Pleistoscene and early Holocene


Once you have all the raw data from the King Lists, for example, then you will need to see if the lifespans decrease over time. You might look for patterns of exponential decrease - like a natural decay curve.

Are you willing to undertake a commitment to this study?

If so, let me know, and I may give you a helping hand.

CWH
03-23-2011, 04:09 AM
Hi Craig

The only thing we know about Yahweh enforcing his laws is what we read recorded in the Bible. The same holds true for all the other OT stories of giants and battles, even the census that David supposedly took that cost the lives of 70,000 Hebrews is extremely ambiguous and has conflicting accounts.

The creator of the heavens and the earth should have no problem in conveying to his creation the exact nature of his being with no ambiguity....so, why does the Bible not present us with a clear picture. :confused:
Rose


The answer for being confused lies here Rose:

Matthew 13:10 The disciples came to him and asked, 'Why do you speak to the people in parables?'

11 He replied, 'Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them ("them" meaning those who did not dig into understanding clearly His symbolic meaning of the parables and His speeches). 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them (meaning those who have the will will understood clearly His symbolic speeches and parables will obtained even more knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven and even more knowledge will then be revealed to him. However, if one did not understand or mis-interpret the meaning of His symbolic speeches will only be more confused and will lead him into rejecting even of whatever truth or inspiration that he have already have or discovered). 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

'Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.(meaning though they could see and hear what Jesus was speaking symbolically, they do not dig deeply into clearly understanding what Jesus actually meant).

14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah (the "them" were those who did not bother to dig into understanding what the actual meanings of His symbolic speeches and parables):

'‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving 15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a] (The whole passage here means that those who did not bother to really understand the symbolic meaning of His speeches and parables will never understand or perceive what were the intended meanings because they have already fixated on their wrong belief as truth and refusing to see and hear other perceptives. Otherwise, they would have understood the real truth and meaning of His speeches and parables and would then turn away from their false belief and perception and Jesus would then accept their repentence and lead them into the truth and salvation).

16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear (meaning for those who managed to make those to see and hear the actual meaning of what Jesus symbolic meanings meant in His speeches and parables will be blessed as more knowledge will be given). 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it "](meaning that even many prophets and righteous people have tried to understand and learn but still did not know the actual meaning of what He actually meant in His symbolic speeches and parables because they did not really dig in to understand the actual meanings).

The parable of the sower is related to the above passages:18 'Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart (meaning that when one hears the Lord's symbolic speeches but did not really dig into to understand the actual meanings, evilness in man's heart will corrupt and reject whatever truth and inspiration that was already revealed to him). This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.(meaning if one understood His symbolic speeches and parables in clarity of its actual meaning will be happy but since his faith and understanding are not strong enough, the fears of troubles and persecutions of being a faithful knowledgeable Christian makes him give up his faith). 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful (meaning one managed to really understood the actual meanings of His symbolic speeches and parables but the cares and worries of giving up the earthly life and wealth that one has acquired block one from obeying what one has learned of the truth to become more righteous and to lead more people to accept the truth). 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.'[/COLOR](meaning those who are good who understood clearly what the intended meanings of His symbolic speeches and parables will lead others to obey what was taught of the truth and thus leading others to be more righteous and knowledgeable. How many one leads others to salvation depends on how much one's faith and understandings of what was actually taught and revealed to him in His symbolic speeches and parables).

Many Blessings.