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TheForgiven
11-17-2010, 04:45 AM
Hey all. I've got a question for you. This topic has been bothering me for almost a year now. Perhaps anyone on this forum could assist me with the matter of supporting our kids. I'll make it short, and I'd appreciate your inputs.

I have a son (step) who's 19 years old. He refuses to go back to school, and graduated this past year. He has a full time job, although I do not know how much money he earns; he refuses to show me his pay-check stubs. I told him that I would continue supporting him "ONLY IF" he goes back to school. At first, this past June, he pretended he wanted to go back to school, but he came up with excuses. He refuses to apply for a student loan, thinks that college is a waste of money, and insists on allowing him to stay at my house for free because of his bad choices and lack of education. Now he's refusing to go to school and insists on working, yet he refuses to move out to start supporting himself.

This past summer, I told him I was going to charge him $300 bucks a month for rent and utilities. Well all of a sudden, he lost his job, so I retracted this. He has since returned to work, and was only unemployed for about three weeks. Now all of a sudden he buys another car; I should state that this is his 4rth vehicle in two years. I have no idea where he's keeping his SUV (2000 Chevy Blazer), and I seen his new car this morning when I departed for work; looks like a 2004 Honda Prelude that he purchased from someone on Craigslist. I have no idea if he traded his Blazer, or if he still owns the Blazer as well.

He pays no rent, does no chores around the house or the yard, and his mother still washes his clothes and makes his bed. His only expenses are:

1. Cell Phone Bill - Straight Talk from Wal-Mart
2. Gasoline - work and pleasure
3. Auto-Insurance
4. Some (or most) food

I have no idea what his monthly gross income may be as he refuses to show me.

I also suspect he just purchased a new or used dirt-bike (motocross). I saw him wearing his steeled toe boots last night, with his usual dirt-bike clothes; parachute pants, tank-top, etc.

Question: Am I wrong for asking him to pay rent or leave?

Joe

Rose
11-17-2010, 10:01 AM
Hi Joe,

Speaking from a mothers perspective I would ask you: what does your wife think of the situation, and what are her ideas on whether her son should pay rent? I don't think there is a right or wrong solution, but rather it is something that should be decided by your wife in order for there to be harmony between you and her.

Blessings,
Rose

TheForgiven
11-17-2010, 01:54 PM
She does not agree with me trying to teach him responsibility. I'm also trying to show him the hardships of making ends-meet. He knows what he's doing, which is nothing more than using me to pay for his living expenses so he can retain is income for pleasure.

I told him last month that I'm allowing him to stay until he reaches 20 years of age; some of my co-workers believe that he's old enough to move out now, considering the fact that he's wasting his money on expensive toys.

His mother thinks that I should continue to pay for his living expenses despite the fact that he's "possibly" earning enough money to support himself, and his girl friend who also works, and goes to school.

My utility costs would drop about 10% percent with him gone, and the room could be converted into a guest or computer room. It's not that I hate him, or want him out of my house. It's the fact that he's lived with me since the age of 9, and has never done anything to help me or my family. I gave him no chores to do during his school years so that he could focus on his education. He took advantage of me and B/S'd his home work, and did not achieve a degree of education that would help him earn a scholarship. Here we are, nearly a year after HS graduation, and he is wasting our time again.

I spoke to my leadership and First Sergeants and they agree that if he's going to use me like this, and not offer any ounce of gratitude, then it's time for him to go.

At this point, I love him, but "tough love" is what he needs; not room for continued waste and mistakes.

What do you think my beloved sister in Christ?

Joe

Richard Amiel McGough
11-17-2010, 03:59 PM
Hey there Joe,

The worst part is the lack of communication and the refusal to he honest about the money he is earning and what he is doing with it. This makes you suspicious of everything which amplifies the alienation between the two of you.

Unfortunately, I cannot imagine any advice to offer you. I'm really sorry, but it seems like the problem stems from deeply entrenched habits of non-communication developed over years, and since he will likely be leaving within a year or so, it doesn't seem like there will be much chance for a change before then.

Sorry, :dontknow:

Richard

Rose
11-17-2010, 04:00 PM
Hi Joe,

From only hearing your side of the story, I think allowing your stepson to live with you until the age of 20 is more than fair on your part, especially since he seems to be perfectly able to support himself.

Blessings,
Rose

TheForgiven
11-19-2010, 05:01 AM
I would agree with you sister. If only I could get my own family to agree. His sister moved out at age 19 because she didn't like me watching who she dates (boy friend). The guy that she was mixed up with was a known drug dealer. Thus, I was very worried for her safety. Sadly she is still with this guy, but they moved to TN in 2006. To this day, I do not know her address. I think she kept it from me because she was afraid of me reporting his location to the authorities. He left the State because he did not want to go to prison, yet it was the local nacotic agent who let him go.

Here's where it gets even better. The local narcotic agent was one of the providers (drugs), and her boy-friend was one of the sellers. When I found out that the local police department was involved with the drug deals, I backed down for fear of them trying to harm me as a small white car (Ford Escort) followed me everywhere I sent for about a week. I mean they road my bumper like they were being towed with two feet of rope.

Do not ever come to Sumter SC. This small little town is very corrupt...VERY corrupt. I've never seen so many family-ran businesses from the tax collectors, to the lawyers, and the Real Estate agents; they are nearly all related. :lol:

Joe

alec cotton
11-19-2010, 12:00 PM
As I read the responses , I am left wondering if this forum is just an intellectual gymnasium . In the beginning I thought it was a place to look for answers and search for truth .using the bible as a guide. Reading the replies I seemed to detect echoes of Freudian claptrap . Whatever happened to the true guide , The bible ; the instructions from the master?..Is, or should a man be the head of the household . Should he have authority or not . Is there a social order or do we choose anarchy?, If a man cannot rule his own household then he is not fit to oversee an assembly. When I read the word and act accordingly , then I demonstrate my confidence in the living God and that is counted to me for righteousness. If I refuse his guidance then that is sin. I am deeply saddened by the feeble response.
Alec

Rose
11-19-2010, 03:47 PM
As I read the responses , I am left wondering if this forum is just an intellectual gymnasium . In the beginning I thought it was a place to look for answers and search for truth .using the bible as a guide. Reading the replies I seemed to detect echoes of Freudian claptrap . Whatever happened to the true guide , The bible ; the instructions from the master?..Is, or should a man be the head of the household . Should he have authority or not . Is there a social order or do we choose anarchy?, If a man cannot rule his own household then he is not fit to oversee an assembly. When I read the word and act accordingly , then I demonstrate my confidence in the living God and that is counted to me for righteousness. If I refuse his guidance then that is sin. I am deeply saddened by the feeble response.
Alec

I am equally saddened by your response Alec! You have spoken the typical male response of headship by the man. Well, as I'm sure you well know by now how I feel about that. The abuse women have had to endure because of mans interpretation of the Bible is truly sad. Women contribute as much, or more in many cases to the functioning of the household and as such have equal authority concerning decisions that are made.

We live in a country that is not ruled by the male authority of the Church (thank goodness :p) and women have equal standing under the law in all areas of the job market and family life.

Blessings,
Rose

TheForgiven
11-20-2010, 08:43 AM
As I read the responses , I am left wondering if this forum is just an intellectual gymnasium . In the beginning I thought it was a place to look for answers and search for truth .using the bible as a guide. Reading the replies I seemed to detect echoes of Freudian claptrap . Whatever happened to the true guide , The bible ; the instructions from the master?..Is, or should a man be the head of the household . Should he have authority or not . Is there a social order or do we choose anarchy?, If a man cannot rule his own household then he is not fit to oversee an assembly. When I read the word and act accordingly , then I demonstrate my confidence in the living God and that is counted to me for righteousness. If I refuse his guidance then that is sin. I am deeply saddened by the feeble response.
Alec

Greetings Alec. I thank you for your response. You are right in a way, but in another way I do not agree.

Sister Rose is correct that too many men have used the Bible as their "head of the House" declaration. It is true that scripturally the male is the "thinker", and not necessarily the "boss". The man and woman, when married, are one body, and should be of the same mind. It is not as though the man does the "thinking" leaving the rest of his body (wife) entirely on its own. Look at it like this. You have a body, and your brain is how your body functions. The brain and the body work hand-in-hand, unless of course there is nerve problems. The leg cannot say to the brain, "I don't want to do what you're telling me", and the brain cannot make the leg do what the leg does not want to do. They work together to accomplish its function.

The same with marriage. The husband cannot tell the wife (as one body) to do something she does not want to do; the same vise-verser. It's a 100/100 relationship, and both must come to an agreement, or a disconnect takes place leaving the body divided.

Realistic, couples will always have disagreements. Take for instance the story of Job. Despite having lost his cattle, sheep, and the support of his wife, he did not sacrifice his integrity with the Lord, despite a raving spouse who told him to "Curse God and die". He loves his wife, and even his disobedient children. And in the end, he was rewarded with an even larger family and income because of his faithfulness. It saddens me, however, testimonies of a woman are not recorded in scripture. But then again, there are stories of faithful women. Sarah, who believed God, that He could bring her to full-term pregnancy despite her old age. Mary who trusted in Jesus, knowing that she deserved death, yet her repentance to becoming a biblical legend. The mother of Jesus, who despite seeing her own son being murdered on a cross, did not lose her integrity with God.

So there are examples of faithfulness and successful relationships as "one body". It's too bad that families in our nation have no learned to function as one body. All to often they are divided, usually ending in divorce.

This is the problem I have with my marriage; my 2nd marriage. My previous marriage ended from adultery; my former spouse committed adultery with another married man who attended the same Church as I. I do not totally blame her for leaving, as it was my fault for chasing her away. Do you want to know the reason why? I made the same mistake that many men make when it comes to understanding scripture. I took Paul's words literally, when he says that the man is head of the house, as Christ is head of the Church. Yes Christ is Head of the Church, but he does not force the Church to do what He wants. He expects them to do what He wants, but demands this with love. Any member inside of the Church that does not listen to the head is eventually cut-off. That is what happened to me. Because of my male-dominant attitude, my wife felt as though she were a slave to our marriage, and was chased into adultery. To this day, after 11 years of separation, the two are still together. Of course there was more to it than what I'm presenting, such as money hunger, etc. But in total truth, the reason for my first failed marriage was due to my male-dominant behavior, and mistreatment of my ex-spouse. I did not treat her as equally important to one-body.

Now in my current marriage, there is an obvious division, and this involves her son. She does not agree with me trying to "cut the chord". And that's what I'm trying to do.

Take care and God bless.

Joe

Beck
11-20-2010, 11:17 AM
Hi Joe,

Well first I agree with your firm stand of teaching responsibility, but I also can relate to how your children seems to go the other way. I have a daughter that grown up in a christain home while she was go to school every thing was good, but didn't want to continue into college. She got a job and car while at home and did help with her income, but when her boyfriend wanted for them to get a place of their own she agreed. After many times of talking to her I felt like it was getting to the point the more I tried the more she wanted to move in with him.

So today she has been living with her future husband for about 5-6 months. Wedding is planned in April 2011. In which our relationship has always been good it's good to have it remain with her even if I disagree with this decision. So in short I understand, but you can do but so much it's time for him to live his own life.

Times aren't what they ones was, for example one of my brother's came back home to live after moving out. My Dad and Mom would alway allow one's in the family to come back home, but my Dad told him that on the very next morning he was to fine a job. Well that morning came and my Dad saw him sleeping in the living room and told him to start walking to fine that job, so my brother did and started walking and came back later that day with a job.

So to me the relationship is the important aspect here and not responsiblity. In terms of my daughter and your step son we hope that one day they will understand the important of responsiblity. They hopefully will look back one day and see with great love that we have for them in the way we intruct them, but for now they have to live they own lifes even if that displeases us. So try to be understanding and have patience.

alec cotton
11-20-2010, 12:53 PM
Hello Joe and welcome
I will address this to you and to anyone who is interested enough to read on. In my post I made a proposition' In the beginning I thought that this forum was a place to look for answers and search for truth' That idea was put on the back burner, I then asked the question . Is ,or should the man be the head of the household. Should he have authority or not ?. Neither the proposition nor the question were answered from the authority of the word. I asked the question , Is there or should there be a social order. First we must establish one thing . Does the reader believe the bible ?. If no! Then it is pointless going any further. . If Yes! Then I would like some direct answers to some direct questions . So often on this forum I have asked straight questions and
got oblique answers at best and strangulated replies at worst. God is the head of Christ. Christ is the head of man. Man is the head of woman . Children must obey parents. Is that the social order ordained of God or not?. God's law says ' Beat your son with a stick '. The law of the land says that you must not do that or you will be punished . Do I obey man or God? The law of the land states that you must not insult homosexuals for their behaviour. God says that you must reprimand ,admonish, rebuke. Do I obey man or God?. Do I obey the ten commandments or not?. The commandments are unequivocal . You must not entertain jealousy. No ifs or buts. You MUST honour your father and your mother. No caveats. Fred and Rose West abducted little girls off the street : She held them while he raped them and then murdered them. It is demanded of the natural children that they honour their father and mother who are in prison for life. Are we or are we not expected to submit to the law of God. I am NOT talking about justification, but duty. Is it wise proper or advisable for Christians to celebrate the feast of trumpets?. We gladly celebrate Christmas , Good Friday and Easter . We even pay lip service to passover in the so-called communion and yet they pale into insignificance in the light of the feast of trumpets. The feast of trumpets recalls the day when God himself spoke to the people and gave them his instructions. The day that he gave his law. Without that day there would be no cross : no resurrection , no saviour. Is this forum just an intellectual exercise or is it a genuine tool designed to enable me to discover a way to help to heal this sad , sick and suffering world.
Alec

Rose
11-20-2010, 03:36 PM
Hello Joe and welcome
I will address this to you and to anyone who is interested enough to read on. In my post I made a proposition' In the beginning I thought that this forum was a place to look for answers and search for truth' That idea was put on the back burner, I then asked the question . Is ,or should the man be the head of the household. Should he have authority or not ?. Neither the proposition nor the question were answered from the authority of the word. I asked the question , Is there or should there be a social order. First we must establish one thing . Does the reader believe the bible ?. If no! Then it is pointless going any further. . If Yes! Then I would like some direct answers to some direct questions . So often on this forum I have asked straight questions and
got oblique answers at best and strangulated replies at worst. God is the head of Christ. Christ is the head of man. Man is the head of woman . Children must obey parents. Is that the social order ordained of God or not?. God's law says ' Beat your son with a stick '. The law of the land says that you must not do that or you will be punished . Do I obey man or God? The law of the land states that you must not insult homosexuals for their behaviour. God says that you must reprimand ,admonish, rebuke. Do I obey man or God?. Do I obey the ten commandments or not?. The commandments are unequivocal . You must not entertain jealousy. No ifs or buts. You MUST honour your father and your mother. No caveats. Fred and Rose West abducted little girls off the street : She held them while he raped them and then murdered them. It is demanded of the natural children that they honour their father and mother who are in prison for life. Are we or are we not expected to submit to the law of God. I am NOT talking about justification, but duty. Is it wise proper or advisable for Christians to celebrate the feast of trumpets?. We gladly celebrate Christmas , Good Friday and Easter . We even pay lip service to passover in the so-called communion and yet they pale into insignificance in the light of the feast of trumpets. The feast of trumpets recalls the day when God himself spoke to the people and gave them his instructions. The day that he gave his law. Without that day there would be no cross : no resurrection , no saviour. Is this forum just an intellectual exercise or is it a genuine tool designed to enable me to discover a way to help to heal this sad , sick and suffering world.
Alec

Alec, I have one question for you: What exactly do you think is meant by "honor your father and mother"? It seems to me you have a warped understanding of what that means.

Rose

Richard Amiel McGough
11-20-2010, 03:53 PM
The commandments are unequivocal . You must not entertain jealousy. No ifs or buts. You MUST honour your father and your mother. No caveats.

Is this passage unequivocal too? No caveats on the "correct" meaning of the words? We must take it exactly as stated?

Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters-- yes, even his own life-- he cannot be my disciple.
The Bible is not very friendly towards the idea of "unequivocal." It seems that we find equivocation almost everywhere in it, especially around issues of the commandments.

CWH
11-20-2010, 05:55 PM
Is this passage unequivocal too? No caveats on the "correct" meaning of the words? We must take it exactly as stated?

Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters-- yes, even his own life-- he cannot be my disciple.
The Bible is not very friendly towards the idea of "unequivocal." It seems that we find equivocation almost everywhere in it, especially around issues of the commandments.

Does God teach hate?...does one hate his own life? If so, then Jesus seems to contradict himself by saying, "Love your enemies ad pray for those who persecute you....If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?"

Therefore I think the passage mentioned about hating your love ones and yourself does not mean hate but disown or deny. Luke 14:26 should be read as "If anyone comes to me and does not DISOWN or DENY his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters-- yes, even his own life-- he cannot be my disciple.". The meaning is the same as giving up everything, take up the cross and follow Him:

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[a] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.

Jesus even said that whoever gives up their love ones and possessions will get much more in the regeneration to come:

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

18 “Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”

28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.


Many Blessings

Richard Amiel McGough
11-20-2010, 08:24 PM
Does God teach hate?...does one hate his own life? If so, then Jesus seems to contradict himself by saying, "Love your enemies ad pray for those who persecute you....If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?"

Therefore I think the passage mentioned about hating your love ones and yourself does not mean hate but disown or deny. Luke 14:26 should be read as "If anyone comes to me and does not DISOWN or DENY his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters-- yes, even his own life-- he cannot be my disciple.". The meaning is the same as giving up everything, take up the cross and follow Him:

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[a] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.

Jesus even said that whoever gives up their love ones and possessions will get much more in the regeneration to come:

17 'Why do you ask me about what is good?' Jesus replied. 'There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.'

18 'Which ones?' he inquired.

Jesus replied, '‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]'

20 'All these I have kept,' the young man said. 'What do I still lack?'

21 Jesus answered, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.'

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, 'Who then can be saved?'

26 Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'

27 Peter answered him, 'We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?'

28 Jesus said to them, 'Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.


Many Blessings
Thanks for making my point for me Cheow! Your post shows again how we must interpret the Bible to mean things different than what the plain words might "unequivocally" seem to mean. That was my point.

But you also introduced another problem. The man asked Jesus how to gain eternal life, and it seems that Jesus told him he could do that by obeying the commandments. But that's not what Paul says! He says that there is no law that could give life.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
So that's why we have these discussions. The answers are not simple and "unequivocal." On the contrary, we are confronted with a mass of apparently contradictory statements that each person must try to "harmonize" for themselves. On the upside ... it gives us lots to talk about!

TheForgiven
11-21-2010, 07:36 AM
Alec, in my opinion, is correct about God's demand for children to honor their parents; this is a commandment from God. This isn't the problem. The problem is what to do, as a Parent, when a child (legally considered an adult) fails to honor his/her parents; even step parents.

In my case, my wife and her children (my step children) have never been taught to honor each other as a team or family. My wife has set double standards in this family thus creating division. Here are some examples:

1. Wife believes children should be able to do what ever they want so they can learn from their own mistakes. No instruction should be given, especially by the step-father.

2. Wife believes children should be able to have things (and they are only things) that she does not agree with the father having (friends, eating out, nice truck/car, cell-phones, etc.); I'm not permitted to have these things without lecture.

3. Wife believes that the husband should pay all of the bills, to also include giving everyone an allowance. The husband is not entitled to an allowance and must give an account of what he spends HIS money on. Neither her or her children have to give an account of their finances, and they are allowed to spend their money on what ever they want, and when ever they want.

5. Wife does chores and keeps a clean house. The husband is expected to share in this responsibility. The children are not expected to contribute in this area. For example, my 19 year old step-son still does not make his own bed, stays up well past midnight, and sleeps until well into the afternoon. Husband is not allowed to offer suggestions or corrections, yet I'm paying her to perform chores that everyone in the family should be sharing; especially considering I work 10 to 12 hours a day, and still find time to make my own bed.

There are many more problems I could list, but these are the problems that has plagued my family for years. Unfortunately, because of the laws of the land (United States), my hands are tied. As my First Sergeant said to me, "I'm in a "lose / lose" situation". If I divorce (which I know God hates), then my finances would plummet into nothing, and I'd be left unable to support for myself. She would get 50 percent of my military retirement, combined with a large amount of child support that would consume more than 30 percent of my income. On top of that, the court system would force me to pay for counseling services, using my child as their clutch. They would state that I need counseling and if I want to see our daughter, I'd have to agree to mandatory counseling which would cost thousands of dollars. If I refused counseling, then I would not be granted partial custody, or even visitation rights. Yet no justification would ever be presented as to why I would need counseling. The Judicial System in our Country is extremely corrupt; they are using EXTORTION to obtain profits from the working father for their own pleasure, while none of this ever happens to a woman.

IN short, being a Biblical man requires a great deal of sacrifice in our country. Men have no rights except to Pay Pay Pay. It's not as though the courts are sympathetic to women; not even in the slightest. They are after the one family member with the money.

As a man of God, I should be able to resolve our differences, but because I'm married to such a divisive family, I cannot resolve anything; my hands are completely tied. I believe the only solution is separation, which I know God hates. But as long as I remain separated, never marrying again (except to God), I believe this is acceptable to Him.

What say you all?

God bless.

Joe

P.S. And now everyone knows why I stopped my pursuit to become a minister of God. Because I've been divorced before, due my ex-spouse's infidelity, and because of my current divisive family, I would never be recognized as a minister to a Church.

Rose
11-21-2010, 09:43 AM
Hi Joe,

It sounds like a separation has occurred long ago between you and your wife, so the only change would be one of physical location. From what you are saying, separation sounds like the only financially feasible option you have right now. I do not believe God hates divorce, or separation any more than division....many times it is the best choice to divorce or separate rather than remain in conflict.

A separation would give both you and your wife a chance to see that maybe both of you are better off apart instead of struggling to stay together. I don't think God wants us to waste our lives in conflict, it not only affects your health, but also your frame of mind. I spent 10 years in a bad marriage where there was constant conflict....it was only after my ex stormed off in a fit of rage, because I would not give in to his insane demands that I filed for separation, which then lead to divorce. That was the best choice I ever made in my life (other than marrying Richard :D).

I wish you all the best with these hard decisions you are making. :pray:

Blessings,
Rose

alec cotton
11-21-2010, 11:29 AM
Alec, I have one question for you: What exactly do you think is meant by "honor your father and mother"? It seems to me you have a warped understanding of what that means.

Rose

Greetings Rose my dear friend . No animosity is ever intended but I am quite certani that you and I are destined to be on a collision course. I decided to address this to you personally rather than generally because the question seems personal. Honor ( American spelling) is something I feel inside and yet find it a bit hard to define . It is the opsite of despise , disdain or treat with contempt. Although both my parents are dead , My natural intincts would be to speak disparagingly of them. Because I have faith in God I refuse to say a wrong word about them .Honour means respect . revere . support. As you know , the jews had the written law ( the torah) and the traditional law . Many even believed that even God had to yield to the law of tradition. Jesus said to them ," You render the law ineffective with your traditions". Now I am curious . What do you think that the commandment "honour your father and mother " means?.
Alec

Rose
11-21-2010, 12:25 PM
Greetings Rose my dear friend . No animosity is ever intended but I am quite certani that you and I are destined to be on a collision course. I decided to address this to you personally rather than generally because the question seems personal. Honor ( American spelling) is something I feel inside and yet find it a bit hard to define . It is the opsite of despise , disdain or treat with contempt. Although both my parents are dead , My natural intincts would be to speak disparagingly of them. Because I have faith in God I refuse to say a wrong word about them .Honour means respect . revere . support. As you know , the jews had the written law ( the torah) and the traditional law . Many even believed that even God had to yield to the law of tradition. Jesus said to them ," You render the law ineffective with your traditions". Now I am curious . What do you think that the commandment "honour your father and mother " means?.
Alec

Hi Alec,

Thank you for answering my question...:signthankspin:
Both of my parents have also passed on, but that does not keep me from speaking the truth about how they chose to live their lives, though it does not have to be in a disparaging way. My father did not act in an honorable way most of the time towards his family (in fact he never failed to mention how much of a burden we were), so I feel it would be wrong to give him reverence or support for his bad actions simply because he impregnated my mother. On the other hand my mother was a very honorable woman, worthy of much respect choosing to stay with my dad because she was unable to support her four children on her own.

The word "Honor" loses its meaning if it is applied to those who are unworthy of what it stands for. To give someone honor simply because they have a child is not what is meant by honoring your father and mother. For my words and actions of honoring someone to have any real meaning they must come from what I feel in my heat to be true; it is better to say nothing than give false honor to someone who does not deserve it.

Blessings,
Rose

alec cotton
11-21-2010, 01:09 PM
Is this passage unequivocal too? No caveats on the "correct" meaning of the words? We must take it exactly as stated?

Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters-- yes, even his own life-- he cannot be my disciple.
The Bible is not very friendly towards the idea of "unequivocal." It seems that we find equivocation almost everywhere in it, especially around issues of the commandments.
Ducking ,dodging , weaving, bobbing and sidestepping !. I suppose it was too much to ask for . ---A direct answer to a direct question? . A definitive refutation of a straight proposition!. Oh dear! We can't have that. Rudyard Kipling Says it all in his poem 'IF'---- If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, or see the things you gave your life to broken ,and stoop and build 'em up with worn out tools----. I did not say that the whole bible is unequivocal , as you well know. I was referring to the ten commandments. I also made it clear that I was not talking about justification but duty . We have an outright duty to live by the ten commandments. It is a circle . If I have confidence in God , then I live by his laws . If I live by his commandments then I demonstrate my faith . When my faith is demonstrated it is counted to me for righteousness. Richard quoted from Gal 3:21 in response to what Jesus said to the man about keeping the law. Up to that point there was no other way in which any man could express his faith and his remorse other than by having an animal slaughtered on his behalf . As I have just pointed out , his faith was demonstrated and his intention to do that which is good was counted to him for righteousness. There was no other way at that time. The law is perfect . The ten commandments are the backbone . The rest of the Torah , the prophets and the writings tease out the details. Everything in the bible is written there for the benefit of the human race. One ship sails east , the other west by the selfsame winds that blow . It's not the gale but the set of the sail that determines the way that we go.
Alec

The Word
11-21-2010, 03:51 PM
Question: Am I wrong for asking him to pay rent or leave?

Joe

He'll learn faster if you kick him out of the house. He won't take that $300 per month seriously enough so you'll be constantly trying to collect money from him. Let some other apartment owner collect from him.

I raised two sons who were 16 months apart and when they were old enough to work, I stopped giving them money. I told them I wouldn't pay for their drugs or alcohol anymore. That was over ten years ago and my oldest put himself through college and his brother is becoming a master air conditioning and heating technician in San Jose, CA.

Some teenagers need to figure things out before they can adjust themselves into society and most of them turn out to be good, hard working people. I can think of a lot worse things to do to a son than kicking him out of the house. And that is giving him everything he wants.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-21-2010, 05:52 PM
He'll learn faster if you kick him out of the house. He won't take that $300 per month seriously enough so you'll be constantly trying to collect money from him. Let some other apartment owner collect from him.

I raised two sons who were 16 months apart and when they were old enough to work, I stopped giving them money. I told them I wouldn't pay for their drugs or alcohol anymore. That was over ten years ago and my oldest put himself through college and his brother is becoming a master air conditioning and heating technician in San Jose, CA.

Some teenagers need to figure things out before they can adjust themselves into society and most of them turn out to be good, hard working people. I can think of a lot worse things to do to a son than kicking him out of the house. And that is giving him everything he wants.
That sounds like sound advice to me. :thumb:

But it's hard to know what would really help since we are all viewing the situation from the outside.

alec cotton
11-22-2010, 10:55 AM
Hi Alec,



The word "Honor" loses its meaning if it is applied to those who are unworthy of what it stands for. To give someone honor simply because they have a child is not what is meant by honoring your father and mother. For my words and actions of honoring someone to have any real meaning they must come from what I feel in my heat to be true; it is better to say nothing than give false honor to someone who does not deserve it.

Blessings,
Rose

Hello Rose
That was my point precisely. Obedience to the divine law is not (as most evangelists will tell you ) like floating on a cloud . It calls for a monumental effort. The commandment does not say "love your neighbour if he is lovely" . It does not mean ."you must not be jealous of your neighbour exept when he has something that you can't have" . The commandments are unhesitant. Jesus said " If you do that you are no different than the pharisees or the heathen. " When I say that love is the most painfull experience , then people fall over laughing. Parents love their own children. If they were to extend that same level of love to all children then it would require a heart like a lion to bear the burden. The love which God demands of us is and must be active and not passive. It is something that we must do.
Wisdom is found in the house of mourning. Laughter in the mouth of fools.
Alec

TheForgiven
11-22-2010, 02:44 PM
Hello Rose
That was my point precisely. Obedience to the divine law is not (as most evangelists will tell you ) like floating on a cloud . It calls for a monumental effort. The commandment does not say "love your neighbour if he is lovely" . It does not mean ."you must not be jealous of your neighbour exept when he has something that you can't have" . The commandments are unhesitant. Jesus said " If you do that you are no different than the pharisees or the heathen. " When I say that love is the most painfull experience , then people fall over laughing. Parents love their own children. If they were to extend that same level of love to all children then it would require a heart like a lion to bear the burden. The love which God demands of us is and must be active and not passive. It is something that we must do.
Wisdom is found in the house of mourning. Laughter in the mouth of fools.
Alec
Reply With Quote

Greetings Alec. Let's make this simple. I fully understand what you're saying, and I agree with it. But saying and doing are two different things.

I want my son to leave home so that he can learn the hard way how hard life can be when you have no self-promotions or ambitions to better yourself, or obtain a higher degree of eduction, thus increasing his chances of financial success (not necessarily wealth).

It's obvious he does not honor me as his father, and he loves his mother more as a friend. His mother lacks true parenting skills, and believes that a child happiness is more important that her own. Meaning she's willing to sacrifice everything in order for her children to have what ever they want; even if that means dishonoring her husband betrothed to her.

Should I ask him to leave despite his mother's disagreement?

Joe

Rose
11-23-2010, 04:28 PM
Hi Joe,

It's too bad that many people don't realize they can be parents and friends with their children (it seems like maybe your wife does). Most parents have many more years of adult relationships with their children than they do of being their guardian, so why not begin to develop that from the start.

I am very fortunate to have a very good relationship with both my boys, who are 14 and 18. When guidance is needed I can supply it, but they are also individual people whom I can also have a friendship with. One aspect of the relationship does not have to be given up to have the other.

Blessings,
Rose

TheForgiven
11-24-2010, 11:00 AM
Hi Joe,

It's too bad that many people don't realize they can be parents and friends with their children (it seems like maybe your wife does). Most parents have many more years of adult relationships with their children than they do of being their guardian, so why not begin to develop that from the start.

I am very fortunate to have a very good relationship with both my boys, who are 14 and 18. When guidance is needed I can supply it, but they are also individual people whom I can also have a friendship with. One aspect of the relationship does not have to be given up to have the other.

Blessings,
Rose

I agree, but with my wife, she does not know how to be a Parent. Her only aspect of raising children is being a friend. And when it comes to discipline, she passes the buck to me, but does not agree with my method.

I grew up during the age of spankings. People in our day who assume that spanking a child raises violent adults are crazy, and/or being misled. I've been spanked numerous times, and it worked. Sure I'm not perfect, but I respect people more than my family has been taught to do; at least I try to respect people.

I was raised in an environment that taught me to say "Yes Ma'am" or "Yes Sir", which is the polite thing to do. Not so with my step children. They have never been taught to respect their elders, nor even themselves.

My wife tries too hard to be their friends, and not their parent. A friend cannot deal with a child’s poor conduct at school. A friend cannot punish their children when they are caught stealing what does not belong to them (such as my 4 wheeler). Yes, my own step-son staged a break-in of my house so he could have my 4 wheeler. But because I cannot prove it, I have no choice but to take his word that "he didn't do it". I know that he did because I found a picture of my 4wheeler 6 months after it was missing, on Craigslist with his girl-friends 4 wheeler for sale right next to mine. He was trying to get rid of it when he assumed I found out and was going to the police. To date, I'm not sure if he has it anymore.

He refuses to contribute to my house, does absolutely no chores, doesn't even make his own bed, and utilizes my utilities FOR FREE. Is it right that a child be given whatever he/she wants simply for the sake of happiness, without showing gratitude in return?

If his mother would back me up, she would not have to worry about her son leaving her. He loves her enough to tolerate whatever demands or expectancies I may have on him.

What am I asking him to do? Help out around the house, and/or the yard. Make his own bed, help out with the dishes, or take out the garbage when the lid is no longer able to contain it. That's all I'm asking. But he refuses to do anything because he claims that it wasn't his fault that his mother married me, so he feels "Entitled" to all the benefits of adulthood, without the responsibility or its costs.

So in this situation, friendship is out of the question. What he's lacking is respect, discipline, and appreciation for the burden of living expenses that others are paying for; he believes he's entitled to free living expenses, but yet expects the right to live as a free adult WITHOUT its cost or responsibility. All so he can save his own pay-check and buy the neat toys. If his mother would stop being his friend, then perhaps we would have more cohesion within the family. But he's doing what he does best; playing our differences and constantly splits his mother and I apart.

So I've come to the conclusion that asking him to leave is the best thing for him.

Joe

Brother Les
11-24-2010, 01:00 PM
Sorry for your family issues Joe. Parents can never be their childrens 'friends'.... When 'our' children stop being children is the time to be 'friends'.... this happens around age '25'. Your relationship with your step children were doomed from the day you were married (I have a step brother and sister and a 'real' brother and sister, I am from a 'blended' family). You and your wife needed to agree on how to handle the issues of 'the children' before you were married. Your wife failed in this in not handling it herself or not supporting you to handle it, being divided on these children issues are easy for the children to spot and take advanage of. This will forever be a thorn in your marriage when it comes to 'her' children. The boy is old enough and is emancipated. He is of age and can take care of himself. If he wishes to stay he must abide by rules, your rules not his mothers. It is your house and you are her husband and she will follow the rules that you set down for him to abide by. The rules do not have to be 'harsh' in 'room and board', but what is really lacking is the respect that is do you. I would think that there have been a lot of 'issuse' with 'the children' that has come between you and your wife. If she was 'looking' for a man to 'raise' her kids... that has been done.Men make boys into men, your wife has made her son into bum, it is up to him if he wishes to remain a bum, you can do no more becasue of his age, he has to decide to 'live or die'. You have no respect or support from your wife on these issuse and it will never get any better than it already is. If you are thinking of a 'seperation' it is paramount for HER to leave not you. it is your house and she and her son should leave and think what they wish to do for the rest of their life. YOU can Never Make Anyone Change.... you can only change yourself. you have made 'Life' to 'easy' for your stepchildren for the last ten years and they have learned nothing but disrespect to you. You and your wife have to sit down and discuss all of your issues and agree. The first is that the step son must pay rent and board.... any amout that helps with food, elec., water. He must and will help pay expences that he incures. 'If' he has no job.... all of his 'cars' and 'stuff' will not be paid by you or his mother and he will 'earn' in food and roof... Where does his 'girl friend' live? not with you I hope.... they are both 'of age' and can get a 'house' of their own. You and your wife should have fought these battles with each other and her kids, ten years ago. The damage may now be to great to repair. Are you better off 'with her' or 'without her'.... if she is not now willing to 'straighten' out her kids she never will and you will fight this fight til the day you die or until the day that you tell her to get out also. Do it now, before you end up hating each other.

TheForgiven
11-24-2010, 04:24 PM
Brother LES. You took the words right from my mouth. :thumb: While I agree with sister Rose, that Parents should also learn to be friends with their children, but parenthood should always come first, then friendship.

Jesus is our Lord, as well as our Friend. He is our friend for companionship, but our Lord for discipline.

Thanks for your encouragement.

God bless.

Joe