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gilgal
10-05-2010, 08:21 AM
The Forbidden Book has a chapter in it's video that mentions the King James Apocrypha almost at the end:
http://www.archive.org/details/cpm_films

basilfo
10-05-2010, 06:49 PM
This is a very serious question folks. And the proper way to frame the question, to be historically accurate is: On what grounds do we Protestants remove 7 books of the Bible (the Apocrypha) that the Christian Church considered Canonical until several hundred years ago?

What would we say about a group of believers who today decided that Esther, Philemon, and Nahum were not going to be part of their Bible? How would our objection to removing those 3 differ from Catholic's objection to our removal of the 7 "we" cut out?

These are not trick questions. I really want to know.

Peace to you,
Dave

gilgal
10-05-2010, 07:01 PM
The Forbidden Book:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwMQTEVSobg

Within these series (I posted the first one) is the Apocrypha. When I first saw this at my church the Apocryphal section was edited out. The last part of this clip shows the arguments and evidence. I still have to study but , decide for yourselves.

basilfo
10-05-2010, 07:14 PM
Thanks Gilgal. I'll watch it.

Richard Amiel McGough
10-05-2010, 08:15 PM
This is a very serious question folks. And the proper way to frame the question, to be historically accurate is: On what grounds do we Protestants remove 7 books of the Bible (the Apocrypha) that the Christian Church considered Canonical until several hundred years ago?

What would we say about a group of believers who today decided that Esther, Philemon, and Nahum were not going to be part of their Bible? How would our objection to removing those 3 differ from Catholic's objection to our removal of the 7 "we" cut out?

These are not trick questions. I really want to know.

Peace to you,
Dave

To begin - are you aware of these two historical facts?

1) Jerome, the 5th century translator of the Vulgate, distinguished between the 22 books (39 by our count) of the "Palestinian" (Jewish OT) canon, and considered only them to be canonical? He included the Apocrypha only because he was forced to do so.

2) The RCC never made any official declaration of the extent of the canon until the Council of Trent in the 16th century, and they did this in response to the Protestants. They included the Apocrypha because they were using it in their polemics against the Protestants who rejected the Apocrypha.

Therefore, it is not, in my estimation, actually correct to say that the Protestants removed those books. An alternate way to state their actions is that they simply adhered to the ancient OT canon accepted by Jerome and which is the only canon accepted by the Jews to whom it was originally given:

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Of course, the RCC apologists will argue that the OT canon was not restricted to the 22 (39) books until after Christ, and therefore should be rejected because it is the canon established by the Jews who rejected Christ. But that depends upon their argument that the canon was not established until after Christ, and many Protestants disagree on that point. So now the argument descends into the realm of the unknowable past, and every man is free to believe whatever he wants, which means that Protestants will be Protestants and Catholics Catholics, and the argument will go in circles forever.

The Bible Wheel solves this issue but no one cares, and so neither do I. Let the religious folks remain what they are. It does not matter. They are all wrong anyway.

Richard

Rose
10-05-2010, 08:18 PM
This is a very serious question folks. And the proper way to frame the question, to be historically accurate is: On what grounds do we Protestants remove 7 books of the Bible (the Apocrypha) that the Christian Church considered Canonical until several hundred years ago?

What would we say about a group of believers who today decided that Esther, Philemon, and Nahum were not going to be part of their Bible? How would our objection to removing those 3 differ from Catholic's objection to our removal of the 7 "we" cut out?

These are not trick questions. I really want to know.

Peace to you,
Dave

Hi Dave,

Yes, it is indeed a very serious question, but since "the eggs have already been scrambled" it seems the best approach is one of finding common ground. If Protestants and Catholics can build bridges upon what they share, which is the bulk of Scripture (66 books) then I think there may be some hope....otherwise there can be no resolution, neither group is going to concede to the other.

Blessings,
Rose

Richard Amiel McGough
10-05-2010, 08:33 PM
Hi Dave,

Yes, it is indeed a very serious question, but since "the eggs have already been scrambled" it seems the best approach is one of finding common ground. If Protestants and Catholics can build bridges upon what they share, which is the bulk of Scripture (66 books) then I think there may be some hope....otherwise there can be no resolution, neither group is going to concede to the other.

Blessings,
Rose
I tried that tactic with the Roman Catholics over on the Catholic Answers forum but they would have NOTHING to do with it because the 66 book canon is INFALLIBLY DECLARED TO BE WRONG by the Magisterium. That's why they had to DELETE the Bible Wheel thread. The evidence was too strong and they could not refute a word of it and they knew that proof of the 66 book canon would destroy their cult. They, like all other doctrinaire religionists, want NOTHING to do with truth. The only thing they care about is the DOMINATION of their own cult. Fine - let them be lost in their own little world until it finally crumbles down around them. I have better things to do with my time than trying to force the willfully blind to open their eyes.

Richard

gilgal
10-05-2010, 08:52 PM
I tried that tactic with the Roman Catholics over on the Catholic Answers forum but they would have NOTHING to do with it because the 66 book canon is INFALLIBLY DECLARED TO BE WRONG by the Magisterium. That's why they had to DELETE the Bible Wheel thread. The evidence was too strong and they could not refute a word of it and they knew that proof of the 66 book canon would destroy their cult. They, like all other doctrinaire religionists, want NOTHING to do with truth. The only thing they care about is the DOMINATION of their own cult. Fine - let them be lost in their own little world until it finally crumbles down around them. I have better things to do with my time than trying to force the willfully blind to open their eyes.

Richard
I wonder if the Apocryphal books show any innerwheel patterns as the 66 books?

Richard Amiel McGough
10-05-2010, 09:08 PM
I wonder if the Apocryphal books show any innerwheel patterns as the 66 books?
Don't know ... but then again, I don't think the Inner Wheel patterns are evident in all the 66 books, so it's probably not a good criterion.

But if they did, then that would put evidence for the idea that they are part of an "extended" canon perhaps, but still the primary canon of 66 books would remain uniquely marked by their unity on the Wheel. And that would be enough to cause the Catholics to reject the Wheel ... they're faith is so weak they can not admit any evidence that might even appear to contradict their religious supremacy.

Richard

gilgal
10-05-2010, 09:19 PM
Don't know ... but then again, I don't think the Inner Wheel patterns are evident in all the 66 books, so it's probably not a good criterion.

But if they did, then that would put evidence for the idea that they are part of an "extended" canon perhaps, but still the primary canon of 66 books would remain uniquely marked by their unity on the Wheel. And that would be enough to cause the Catholics to reject the Wheel ... they're faith is so weak they can not admit any evidence that might even appear to contradict their religious supremacy.

Richard
Agreed. Because they always put their trust in the priesthood to interpret the bible.

On the one hand the 66 is the gemetria of Gilgal/wheel the chapters of Isaiah and the Protestant Canon books of Scriptures.

On the other hand I see more emphasis on demonology than before. It seems to fill the gap between the OT and NT. In the OT we hardly find Satan mentioned nor Demon possession. In the NT we have many demon possessions and the Pharisaical method of casting out demons and Jesus' method. In the Apocrypha there's Daniel and Bel and the Dragon and Tobit.

But are the stories real or fables? What's the purpose of these stories? Does it teach us something solid?

Richard Amiel McGough
10-05-2010, 09:29 PM
On the one hand the 66 is the gemetria of Gilgal/wheel the chapters of Isaiah and the Protestant Canon books of Scriptures.

Yep! That's certainly one of my favorite identities.

Gilgal (Wheel) = 66 = Number of books in the Wheel!



On the other hand I see more emphasis on demonology than before. It seems to fill the gap between the OT and NT. In the OT we hardly find Satan mentioned nor Demon possession. In the NT we have many demon possessions and the Pharisaical method of casting out demons and Jesus' method. In the Apocrypha there's Daniel and Bel and the Dragon and Tobit.

But are the stories real or fables? What's the purpose of these stories? Does it teach us something solid?
I think the character of the apocrypha is obviously and vastly inferior to most of the canonical books. Though aspects of Jonah and Daniel sound almost like some of the apocrypha though still not as unbelievable.

basilfo
10-06-2010, 02:41 PM
To begin - are you aware of these two historical facts?

1) Jerome, the 5th century translator of the Vulgate, distinguished between the 22 books (39 by our count) of the "Palestinian" (Jewish OT) canon, and considered only them to be canonical? He included the Apocrypha only because he was forced to do so.

Hi Richard,
Thanks for replying. From what I could find, while he was one of the most brilliant and prolific early Christian scholars, Jerome rejected the deuterocanon based on a faulty understanding of the transmission of the OT texts. He believed the Hebrew Masoretic Text was the only true copy of the inspired original and all other Greek translations (including the Septuagint) were loose copies and spurious. The Deuterocanon was not in the HMT, so he rejected it.

I'm not pretending to know this off the top of my head. Most of this info came from the writings of Gary Michuta.



2) The RCC never made any official declaration of the extent of the canon until the Council of Trent in the 16th century, and they did this in response to the Protestants.

That's simply not true. The Council of Hippo (393AD) produced a list of Sacred writings considered to be Holy Scripture (which included the "Apocrypha") and submitted for subsequent approval by Rome. Augustine was among the bishops in attendance and in agreement with that Canon, which is the same list used by Catholics today. So, the Canon including those 7 books was established way before Trent - actually around the 4th century.



Therefore, it is not, in my estimation, actually correct to say that the Protestants removed those books.

As you probably know, the early Reformers did not agree on "removing" the 7 books. You say Jerome was forced to include the Apocrypha, but Luther actually didn't accept the book of James as a legitimate part of the Canon due to it's emphasis on works (which seemed to him to be contrary to his "justification by faith alone").

Luther and early reformers after him did not unanimously reject the Apocrypha as part of the Canon. In fact, Luther appealed to the books of Sirach and Wisdom in his defense of his 95 Theses. And later to the Book of Tobit. Later he did repudiate (or "remove") the deuterocanonical books.


An alternate way to state their actions is that they simply adhered to the ancient OT canon accepted by Jerome and which is the only canon accepted by the Jews to whom it was originally given:

But Jerome appeared to be outside the mainstream of Christian thought at the time regarding the Canon. And the Jews were anything but monolithic in their lists of Holy Scripture at the time of Christ.



So now the argument descends into the realm of the unknowable past, and every man is free to believe whatever he wants, which means that Protestants will be Protestants and Catholics Catholics, and the argument will go in circles forever.

True if we are looking for all the details, but the basic premise that the vast majority of the Christian Church - including it's leadership in Rome - from the 4th century through the 16th century included the Apocrypha in it's Canon seems to be easily supported.

Peace to you,
Dave

gilgal
10-06-2010, 06:52 PM
Hi Richard,
Thanks for replying. From what I could find, while he was one of the most brilliant and prolific early Christian scholars, Jerome rejected the deuterocanon based on a faulty understanding of the transmission of the OT texts. He believed the Hebrew Masoretic Text was the only true copy of the inspired original and all other Greek translations (including the Septuagint) were loose copies and spurious. The Deuterocanon was not in the HMT, so he rejected it.

I'm not pretending to know this off the top of my head. Most of this info came from the writings of Gary Michuta.




That's simply not true. The Council of Hippo (393AD) produced a list of Sacred writings considered to be Holy Scripture (which included the "Apocrypha") and submitted for subsequent approval by Rome. Augustine was among the bishops in attendance and in agreement with that Canon, which is the same list used by Catholics today. So, the Canon including those 7 books was established way before Trent - actually around the 4th century.



As you probably know, the early Reformers did not agree on "removing" the 7 books. You say Jerome was forced to include the Apocrypha, but Luther actually didn't accept the book of James as a legitimate part of the Canon due to it's emphasis on works (which seemed to him to be contrary to his "justification by faith alone").

Luther and early reformers after him did not unanimously reject the Apocrypha as part of the Canon. In fact, Luther appealed to the books of Sirach and Wisdom in his defense of his 95 Theses. And later to the Book of Tobit. Later he did repudiate (or "remove") the deuterocanonical books.



But Jerome appeared to be outside the mainstream of Christian thought at the time regarding the Canon. And the Jews were anything but monolithic in their lists of Holy Scripture at the time of Christ.




True if we are looking for all the details, but the basic premise that the vast majority of the Christian Church - including it's leadership in Rome - from the 4th century through the 16th century included the Apocrypha in it's Canon seems to be easily supported.

Peace to you,
Dave
Correct me if I'm wrong, the Catholic Church included the Apocrypha since it's the only place where purgatory is found.

basilfo
10-06-2010, 07:25 PM
Hi Gilgal,
I'm not an expert on Catholicism by any stretch, but I believe the teaching of purgatory came well after the Church settled on the Canon (which included the Deuterocanonical books) around the 4th century (Council of Hippo).

Remember, unlike the Protestant churches after the Reformation, the Church through the centuries always considered revelation from God to come from both Scripture AND Sacred Tradition. They actually have Scriptural support from Paul for this in 2 Thess 2:15-

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast , and hold the traditions (Str#3862) which ye have been taught , whether by word, or our epistle.;

2 Thess 3:6 - Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition (Str #3862) which he received of us.

Don't get hung up on the word "tradition" as in "the traditions of men". That's not what it means. Paul is speaking of the teaching he gave them ...... by word of mouth AND by his letters (Scripture).

The position "well, it's not in Scripture so it's not inspired teaching" seems to clash with Paul's words. As I said before, we accept the very table of contents of the Bible as inspired, but it is not found in Scripture.

Richard Amiel McGough
10-06-2010, 08:51 PM
Hi Richard,
Thanks for replying. From what I could find, while he was one of the most brilliant and prolific early Christian scholars, Jerome rejected the deuterocanon based on a faulty understanding of the transmission of the OT texts. He believed the Hebrew Masoretic Text was the only true copy of the inspired original and all other Greek translations (including the Septuagint) were loose copies and spurious. The Deuterocanon was not in the HMT, so he rejected it.

I'm not pretending to know this off the top of my head. Most of this info came from the writings of Gary Michuta.

Hi Dave,

I'm glad you are pursuing this. It is a very interesting discussion. But you will have to read more than Catholic apologists like Michuta to get a correct view on this issue. They are arguing against the Protestants and will say whatever is necessary to make their case because their entire Religion would be utterly obliterated if they were wrong on this point. Michuta's assertion that Jerome had a "faulty understanding of transmission of the OT texts" is just special pleading designed to prove his case. He doesn't know anything about Jerome's understanding, and even if he did, he is merely asserting that it was "wrong" because it excluded the Apocrypha. That's begging the question.

Here is Jerome's view as expressed in his Preface to Samuel and Kings:
This preface to the Scriptures may serve as a " helmeted " introduction to all the books which we turn from Hebrew into Latin, so that we may be assured that what is not found in our list must be placed amongst the Apocryphal writings. Wisdom, therefore, which generally bears the name of Solomon, and the book of Jesus, the Son of Sirach, and Judith, and Tobias, and the Shepherd are not in the canon. The first book of Maccabees I have found to be Hebrew, the second is Greek, as can be proved from the very style.
Now I haven't read Michuta's argument, but if your explanation is correct, then he is the one with the misunderstanding. Jerome was not talking about TRANSMISSION - he was talking about the fact that the books themselves were never written in Hebrew at all, but were authored in Greek and not accepted by the Jews in general (and specifically, in Jerusalem).

These kinds of arguments are very weak. They are obviously insufficient to convince anyone. Folks just believe what they want and then make up arguments to support their positions.




2) The RCC never made any official declaration of the extent of the canon until the Council of Trent in the 16th century, and they did this in response to the Protestants.
That's simply not true. The Council of Hippo (393AD) produced a list of Sacred writings considered to be Holy Scripture (which included the "Apocrypha") and submitted for subsequent approval by Rome. Augustine was among the bishops in attendance and in agreement with that Canon, which is the same list used by Catholics today. So, the Canon including those 7 books was established way before Trent - actually around the 4th century.

Note I said "official" declaration. I was talking about the Magisterium making a binding statement about what Catholics must believe. That's why the Council of Trent had to make the official statement in the 16th century. Until that time Catholics in GOOD STANDING with the Church could argue why they believed the Apocrypha was not Scripture. This was not possible after the Council made its official declaration and anathematized anyone who disagreed with them. There was a prominent Catholic priest at the time of Trent who argued against the Apocrypha, but I don't recall his name right now.



As you probably know, the early Reformers did not agree on "removing" the 7 books. You say Jerome was forced to include the Apocrypha, but Luther actually didn't accept the book of James as a legitimate part of the Canon due to it's emphasis on works (which seemed to him to be contrary to his "justification by faith alone").

Luther and early reformers after him did not unanimously reject the Apocrypha as part of the Canon. In fact, Luther appealed to the books of Sirach and Wisdom in his defense of his 95 Theses. And later to the Book of Tobit. Later he did repudiate (or "remove") the deuterocanonical books.

You are correct about Luther. He rearranged the books putting James near the end because he did not like that book. But he's not the authority on anything and what he did does not prove anything.

And the fact that there was not "uniform" agreement amongst the Reformers who had been raised on the Catholic Bible should come as no surprise. They were confused about many doctrines that were later rejected, such as transubstantiation, child baptism, and the perpetual virginity of Mary to name a few.




An alternate way to state their actions is that they simply adhered to the ancient OT canon accepted by Jerome and which is the only canon accepted by the Jews to whom it was originally given:
But Jerome appeared to be outside the mainstream of Christian thought at the time regarding the Canon. And the Jews were anything but monolithic in their lists of Holy Scripture at the time of Christ.

And like the Jews, the early church was "anything but monolithic in their lists of Holy Scripture." Indeed, nearly every ancient list has variations in order and content from the modern canon.

As for the "mainstream thought" - who determines that? And who is "correct?" Remember, Athanasius felt that he was standing against the "entire world" when he opposed Arianism. This gave rise to the saying Athanasius contra mundum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasius_of_Alexandria).

Bottom line: Truth is not established by majority vote.




So now the argument descends into the realm of the unknowable past, and every man is free to believe whatever he wants, which means that Protestants will be Protestants and Catholics Catholics, and the argument will go in circles forever.
True if we are looking for all the details, but the basic premise that the vast majority of the Christian Church - including it's leadership in Rome - from the 4th century through the 16th century included the Apocrypha in it's Canon seems to be easily supported.

Peace to you,
Dave
Granted. I never argued against that point!

And as an interesting aside, this destroys, of course, Rodrick's anti-Preterist argument that God would never allow a fundamental confusion like "which Bible is correct" to exist for a thousand years in His church.

Great chatting!

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
10-06-2010, 10:05 PM
I found the name of the priest contemporary with Luther who argued against the apocrypha. It was not just a priest, but rather a Cardinal and Papal Legate. Here is the record of what Cardinal Cajetan wrote prior to the decision at Trent (link (http://thesearewritten.blogspot.com/2007/08/cardinal-cajetan-on-biblical-canon.html)):

"Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the Apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, as is plain from the Prologus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage."
Richard

gilgal
10-06-2010, 10:43 PM
Hi Gilgal,
I'm not an expert on Catholicism by any stretch, but I believe the teaching of purgatory came well after the Church settled on the Canon (which included the Deuterocanonical books) around the 4th century (Council of Hippo).

Remember, unlike the Protestant churches after the Reformation, the Church through the centuries always considered revelation from God to come from both Scripture AND Sacred Tradition. They actually have Scriptural support from Paul for this in 2 Thess 2:15-

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast , and hold the traditions (Str#3862) which ye have been taught , whether by word, or our epistle.;

2 Thess 3:6 - Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition (Str #3862) which he received of us.

Don't get hung up on the word "tradition" as in "the traditions of men". That's not what it means. Paul is speaking of the teaching he gave them ...... by word of mouth AND by his letters (Scripture).

The position "well, it's not in Scripture so it's not inspired teaching" seems to clash with Paul's words. As I said before, we accept the very table of contents of the Bible as inspired, but it is not found in Scripture.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
I believe the traditions talked about in 2 Thessalonians are: love, hope, joy, patience...the fruits of the Spirit.

basilfo
10-07-2010, 03:14 AM
Gilgal,
No matter what 'traditions' Paul was referring to, the point here is that he told the Thessalonians to stand fast, and hold to those traditions whether they received that teaching by what he had written them (Scripture or "our epistle") AND by what he had told them orally ("by word").

I am not rejecting Scripture! Just pointing out that it is not heretical to understand that God provided much revelation to man without the written word. Think of the covenants with Adam, Noah, and Abraham. None of the patriarchs prior to Moses wrote Scripture.

Richard Amiel McGough
10-07-2010, 08:43 AM
Gilgal,
No matter what 'traditions' Paul was referring to, the point here is that he told the Thessalonians to stand fast, and hold to those traditions whether they received that teaching by what he had written them (Scripture or "our epistle") AND by what he had told them orally ("by word").

I am not rejecting Scripture! Just pointing out that it is not heretical to understand that God provided much revelation to man without the written word. Think of the covenants with Adam, Noah, and Abraham. None of the patriarchs prior to Moses wrote Scripture.
Yes, but the Protestant response is that Paul was talking about oral tradition received directly from an Apostle - not traditions made up by wacky guys in pointy hats and funny dresses a thousand years later! Big difference in my estimation ...

gilgal
10-07-2010, 11:26 AM
Yes, but the Protestant response is that Paul was talking about oral tradition received directly from an Apostle - not traditions made up by wacky guys in pointy hats and funny dresses a thousand years later! Big difference in my estimation ...
I know a lot of Orthodox Priests because I have a priest in my family. One was saying to another that either we lose our culture or our faith. One has to go. If we interpret things in the modern Armenian (instead of the classical Armenian) we lose our culture otherwise the people won't understand and lose their faith.

Richard Amiel McGough
10-07-2010, 11:40 AM
I know a lot of Orthodox Priests because I have a priest in my family. One was saying to another that either we lose our culture or our faith. One has to go. If we interpret things in the modern Armenian (instead of the classical Armenian) we lose our culture otherwise the people won't understand and lose their faith.
Fascinating comment. I think this is true in a much broader sense. Christians must accept modern science of the religion will die out to nothing but an obscure cult within a generation or two.

gilgal
10-07-2010, 11:47 AM
Fascinating comment. I think this is true in a much broader sense. Christians must accept modern science of the religion will die out to nothing but an obscure cult within a generation or two.
Some churches try to explain or preach in two languages, one of them being English so the people can understand. They even have bible study sessions, if people show up to learn, that is.

basilfo
10-07-2010, 01:00 PM
Yes, but the Protestant response is that Paul was talking about oral tradition received directly from an Apostle - not traditions made up by wacky guys in pointy hats and funny dresses a thousand years later! Big difference in my estimation ...

Hi Richard,
Are you sure about that? In his letter to Timothy, Paul lays out several "generations" of succession after he taught Timothy. So, it seems Paul sanctioned a succession of teachers ("able to teach others"):

Paul
Timothy
Timothy's students ("faithful men")
Timothy's students' students ("others")

2 Timothy 2:1 You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

How many layers of authorized teachers should Paul describe to show "Apostolically approved" succession of instruction? On what basis would you say only the Apostles provided oral inspired revelation?

Dave

gilgal
10-07-2010, 01:24 PM
Hi Richard,
Are you sure about that? In his letter to Timothy, Paul lays out several "generations" of succession after he taught Timothy. So, it seems Paul sanctioned a succession of teachers ("able to teach others"):

Paul
Timothy
Timothy's students ("faithful men")
Timothy's students' students ("others")

2 Timothy 2:1 You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

How many layers of authorized teachers should Paul describe to show "Apostolically approved" succession of instruction? On what basis would you say only the Apostles provided oral inspired revelation?

Dave
1Corinthians is the epistle where the Apostle Paul says that in simplicity he preached the Gospel, in plain language. In the Catholic and Orthodox churches they try to preserve the old languages. But in time the languages change.


1 Corinthians 2
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Besides...the old testament has ceremonies that people hardly dare interpret them. I'm sure there are many mysteries on the tabernacle as I read in Hebrews that the writer (assuming Paul) says that he can't go through it at the moment because we are dull of hearing. I WANT to hear those things. But nobody talks about it. Many pastors don't even KNOW it.
Studying the Tabernacle in Exodus (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=24698#post24698)

Sharon
10-22-2011, 10:36 AM
Matthew... 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ,[b] and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.


When one gets to the point of being able to close the Bible and 'listen' to our True Teacher who has written His Law on our hearts, only then will we have a taste of the True freedom that the Beloved has prepared for us.

The more rules they make..the more sin they create..and this is what keeps many 'grounded'.

Richard Amiel McGough
10-22-2011, 10:51 AM
Matthew... 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ,[b] and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.


When one gets to the point of being able to close the Bible and 'listen' to our True Teacher who has written His Law on our hearts, only then will we have a taste of the True freedom that the Beloved has prepared for us.

The more rules they make..the more sin they create..and this is what keeps many 'grounded'.
Hi Sharon,

Welcome to our forum!

:welcome:

You post presents me with a challenge. How would I know anything about our "True Teacher" if I didn't open the Bible? And if I close the Bible and listen to my own "feelings" why did I need the Bible in the first place?

Your comment generates a lot of questions in my mind. That's the sign of a good post!

All then best,

Richard

Sharon
10-23-2011, 08:45 AM
There is much Knowledge in the Bible that most people could not 'see' up until now. Even the Lord spoke of this and had written that 'they will read the words like illiterate children..but then eyes and ears will be opened'. This meaning a higher understanding..and along with that..He also said that His mysteries will be revealed.

Here is a verse that will make you think also...

'He BOWED the HEAVENS and come down..'

Think about this verse. How many Times have you read this WITHOUT really 'hearing' it?? Think about it and then 'see' the chain reaction of understanding that will come..ie..once the Spirit shows you the meaning of the first verse, this next one will just open up..

'With the Lord a day can be a thousand years and a thousand years can be a day..'

Regards...Sharon.

Sharon
10-23-2011, 08:48 AM
...and thankyou for the kind welcome!!

Richard Amiel McGough
10-23-2011, 08:56 AM
There is much Knowledge in the Bible that most people could not 'see' up until now. Even the Lord spoke of this and had written that 'they will read the words like illiterate children..but then eyes and ears will be opened'. This meaning a higher understanding..and along with that..He also said that His mysteries will be revealed.

Here is a verse that will make you think also...

'He BOWED the HEAVENS and come down..'

Think about this verse. How many Times have you read this WITHOUT really 'hearing' it?? Think about it and then 'see' the chain reaction of understanding that will come..ie..once the Spirit shows you the meaning of the first verse, this next one will just open up..

'With the Lord a day can be a thousand years and a thousand years can be a day..'

Regards...Sharon.
Are you relating this to the curvature of space-time in General Relativity?

Sharon
10-23-2011, 10:25 AM
I am. Here is a generation that praises einstein's theories when it has been written many centuries before him...right in front of the eyes of many..yet not noticed. I do not believe the human brain just 'discovers' this knowledge all on it's own..which is why it is written..'do not brag about men!!' What I have been shown is that knowledge is given to us..just as David wrote. The prophets were in 'contact' with beings that were from God and, in some cases, God Himself..and shown the future events (just as Jesus spoke of the future also..hence the statement..'It is ALREADY done)'.

There is sooooo much Knowledge in the Scripts and it doesn't matter if some of the words have been changed or whether a Script is authentic or not. The fact is, if God is guiding, He will show the Truth..even from a false script (even the darkness is Light to Him).

Richard Amiel McGough
10-23-2011, 11:16 AM
I am. Here is a generation that praises einstein's theories when it has been written many centuries before him...right in front of the eyes of many..yet not noticed. I do not believe the human brain just 'discovers' this knowledge all on it's own..which is why it is written..'do not brag about men!!' What I have been shown is that knowledge is given to us..just as David wrote. The prophets were in 'contact' with beings that were from God and, in some cases, God Himself..and shown the future events (just as Jesus spoke of the future also..hence the statement..'It is ALREADY done)'.

There is sooooo much Knowledge in the Scripts and it doesn't matter if some of the words have been changed or whether a Script is authentic or not. The fact is, if God is guiding, He will show the Truth..even from a false script (even the darkness is Light to Him).
That's very interesting Sharon.

I have some comments, but it would help if I knew where you were coming from on some Science and Creation questions. What are your views on Creation? Do you believe the earth is 4.5 billion years? What about evolution?

Great chatting!

Richard

Sharon
10-24-2011, 03:50 AM
I would not like to say that I have any idea how old the earth is and 'evolution' is a theory that I believe will be weakened by the Knowledge that is coming into 'view' by many now. I can see some well written points..ie.. natural selection, but I feel that there is much more than what evolution has to offer. Just the fact that adam and eve were made differently and HOW they were made only shows that there are other explanations. It is written that adam was 'made from the dust'..but eve was not. Adam was 'put into a deep sleep and had a 'rib' (human DNA) removed so that another one could be created. I think we have come far enough to take the 'mystery' out of that scenario..and the fact that there were 'others' on the earth when both adam and eve were expelled, only shows that evolution is just a theory. It is a Time where God himself is showing that science is just one of His many servants and if the scientists of today only take for 'fact' what they can prove, then I believe they will be left behind... as God is showing many people many things as He said He would..('I will send dreams and visions...')

There is a statement that He made..

'Call out to Me and I will show you great and UNSEARCHABLE things that you do not know..' UNSEARCHABLE..that is..things that CANNOT be proven on earth..and there are some that are 'eating and drinking deeply'!!


Genesis also mentions the 'other beings' (sons of God) coming to earth and interbreeding with the human women. This is hybridding and this is what started Gods fury which sent the floods and destroyed those on earth. (Only Noah and co. were saved. If you read the old Scripts of the Jewish legends, you may get an idea of 'who/what' Noah was.)
God also said that it would 'be as in Noah's Time' when He comes again. Have you noticed how many people are coming forward and speaking of 'abduction and hybriding'...just as in Noah's Time!!

Ec..'what was done will be done again..there is nothing new under the sun..it has been done before...'

heb13-13
10-24-2011, 05:51 AM
I would not like to say that I have any idea how old the earth is and 'evolution' is a theory that I believe will be weakened by the Knowledge that is coming into 'view' by many now. I can see some well written points..ie.. natural selection, but I feel that there is much more than what evolution has to offer. Just the fact that adam and eve were made differently and HOW they were made only shows that there are other explanations. It is written that adam was 'made from the dust'..but eve was not. Adam was 'put into a deep sleep and had a 'rib' (human DNA) removed so that another one could be created. I think we have come far enough to take the 'mystery' out of that scenario..and the fact that there were 'others' on the earth when both adam and eve were expelled, only shows that evolution is just a theory. It is a Time where God himself is showing that science is just one of His many servants and if the scientists of today only take for 'fact' what they can prove, then I believe they will be left behind... as God is showing many people many things as He said He would..('I will send dreams and visions...')

There is a statement that He made..

'Call out to Me and I will show you great and UNSEARCHABLE things that you do not know..' UNSEARCHABLE..that is..things that CANNOT be proven on earth..and there are some that are 'eating and drinking deeply'!!


Genesis also mentions the 'other beings' (sons of God) coming to earth and interbreeding with the human women. This is hybridding and this is what started Gods fury which sent the floods and destroyed those on earth. (Only Noah and co. were saved. If you read the old Scripts of the Jewish legends, you may get an idea of 'who/what' Noah was.)
God also said that it would 'be as in Noah's Time' when He comes again. Have you noticed how many people are coming forward and speaking of 'abduction and hybriding'...just as in Noah's Time!!

Ec..'what was done will be done again..there is nothing new under the sun..it has been done before...'

Those are some very interesting comments.

I do like the implication about male and female and how could "evolution" figure out that both were needed. Why didn't we just have male species evolve or just have female species evolve? Very good point.

heb13-13
10-24-2011, 05:57 AM
Hi Richard,
Are you sure about that? In his letter to Timothy, Paul lays out several "generations" of succession after he taught Timothy. So, it seems Paul sanctioned a succession of teachers ("able to teach others"):

Paul
Timothy
Timothy's students ("faithful men")
Timothy's students' students ("others")

2 Timothy 2:1 You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

How many layers of authorized teachers should Paul describe to show "Apostolically approved" succession of instruction? On what basis would you say only the Apostles provided oral inspired revelation?

Dave

Basilfo,

I won't copy my other post here, but I will paste a link to it where I attempted to answer this kind of statement.

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=35668#post35668

Rome's "Apostolically approved" succession is misleading at best.

Rick

duxrow
10-24-2011, 12:42 PM
The 66 books agrees with me primarily because of the 66 generations from Adam to Jesus - Noah#10, Abram#20, Boaz#30, David#33, Hezekiah#46, Jacob#63, Jesus#66.

Have thought the Aprocrypha was 15 books (not 7)... does everyone here agree 7?

Old Testament: 39 is 3 and 3 squared. NT is 27 = 3 cubed. and when you add the 15 apocrypha, 81 is 3 to the 4th pwr. Interesting?

Richard Amiel McGough
10-24-2011, 01:06 PM
The 66 books agrees with me primarily because of the 66 generations from Adam to Jesus - Noah#10, Abram#20, Boaz#30, David#33, Hezekiah#46, Jacob#63, Jesus#66.

Have thought the Aprocrypha was 15 books (not 7)... does everyone here agree 7?

Old Testament: 39 is 3 and 3 squared. NT is 27 = 3 cubed. and when you add the 15 apocrypha, 81 is 3 to the 4th pwr. Interesting?
The Catholic Bible has 72 or 73 books, depending on how you count them. And it has additions to Esther and Daniel too. There are lots of variations in the Apocrypha found in the canons used by other denominations. The Ethiopian Bible has the largest count as far as I recall. Something like 80 books I think. You can find all this info on the web of course.

There's a big problem trying to choose the canon according to the numbers you like. Some folks say that the real number can't be 66 because that's based on 6 - man's number - and it's too much like 666. And if you like numbers, then 73 - the value of the Hebrew word for Wisdom - certainly seems nice. Some folks just recount the books of the Protestant Bible by combining them in groups (like the books of Samuel and Kings are called one book of Kings) to get the number 49 = 7 x7 and think they have found perfection. The wiki says the Gutenburg bible had 77 books, so that would work with Luke's genology. I don't see any of this helping arrive at truth.

Richard Amiel McGough
10-24-2011, 01:39 PM
I would not like to say that I have any idea how old the earth is and 'evolution' is a theory that I believe will be weakened by the Knowledge that is coming into 'view' by many now. I can see some well written points..ie.. natural selection, but I feel that there is much more than what evolution has to offer. Just the fact that adam and eve were made differently and HOW they were made only shows that there are other explanations. It is written that adam was 'made from the dust'..but eve was not. Adam was 'put into a deep sleep and had a 'rib' (human DNA) removed so that another one could be created. I think we have come far enough to take the 'mystery' out of that scenario..and the fact that there were 'others' on the earth when both adam and eve were expelled, only shows that evolution is just a theory. It is a Time where God himself is showing that science is just one of His many servants and if the scientists of today only take for 'fact' what they can prove, then I believe they will be left behind... as God is showing many people many things as He said He would..('I will send dreams and visions...')

There is a statement that He made..

'Call out to Me and I will show you great and UNSEARCHABLE things that you do not know..' UNSEARCHABLE..that is..things that CANNOT be proven on earth..and there are some that are 'eating and drinking deeply'!!


Genesis also mentions the 'other beings' (sons of God) coming to earth and interbreeding with the human women. This is hybridding and this is what started Gods fury which sent the floods and destroyed those on earth. (Only Noah and co. were saved. If you read the old Scripts of the Jewish legends, you may get an idea of 'who/what' Noah was.)
God also said that it would 'be as in Noah's Time' when He comes again. Have you noticed how many people are coming forward and speaking of 'abduction and hybriding'...just as in Noah's Time!!

Ec..'what was done will be done again..there is nothing new under the sun..it has been done before...'
When you say that "evolution is a theory" do you mean it in the same sense as when we speak of the "theory of gravity?"

I brought up science because you are thinking that the Bible has a "hint" at the most advanced theory of gravity yet invented, namely, General Relativity. But in fact the Bible says nothing at all about General Relativity. The image of "bowed the heavens" is poetry, not science. This is pretty clear when we read it in context. David called unto the Lord, and he "bowed the heavens and came down" -

Psalm 18:6 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears. 7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth. 8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. 9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. 10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
That whole passage is pure poetry. I can't think of any reason to assume that the phrase "bowed the heavens" is supposed to be a "hint" of General Relativity. It would be like someone from the 19th century - when steam locomotives became common - assumed that the "smoke" coming out of God's nostrils was supposed to be an image of the trains exhaust pipe (advanced technology of the time). Clearly, this was proof that the Lord knew about steam locomotives long before they were invented!

And why do you think that the "knowledge coming out" will weaken, rather than strengthen, the theory of evolution? Why do you think one theory (gravity) is correct while the other not? They are both modern scientific theories with much evidence and broad acceptance in the scientific communities.

And why do you add ideas to the Bible? There is nothing in the text that says the rib represents DNA.

As for the existence of "others on the earth" not descended from Adam - Traditional Christianity rejects that view because the Bible says everyone was descended from Adam. And how would the existence of "others" prove evolution is "just a theory" anyway? I get the impression you don't understand that all scientific theories are "just a theory." The fact that they are "theories" has nothing to do with whether they are true or not! The word "theory" in the scientific context means "the body of knowledge that explains a phenomenon." Every "explanation" is "just a theory." It is a very common error to think that a "fact" is the opposite of a "theory." That's not what the word means at all. Scientific theories are based on facts. They are designed to explain facts. They are not the opposite of facts. Unfortunately, this error has been spread far and wide by ignorant Christian fundamentalists who don't know the first thing about science, but oppose it none the less. (I'm not talking about you, of course!)

And if we begin believing "unsearchable" things that cannot be proven, then how do we distinguish between truth and falsehood?

And finally, the idea of angel/human hybrids is a pagan concept that many Christians reject. What makes you think that alien sperm would have the correct number of chromosomes to make a fertile egg? We can't even mix a cat and dog! Why should we assume that God created angels who could interbreed with humans? That seems like an extreme stretch. Yes, there are two hints in the Bible= Gen 6 and Jude. The problem is that Jude quotes the pagan book of Enoch which taught that fallen angels could interbreed with humans. Why should we believe those pagan ideas?

Well ... you certainly opened the conversation to a large variety of topics! Looks like fun!

Thanks,

Richard

Sharon
10-25-2011, 02:55 AM
Heb 13:13

Here is that old piece of writing about Noah's birth if you are still interested...



NOAH--THE BIRTH OF NOAH
Methuselah took a wife for his son Lamech, and she bore him a man child. The body of the babe was white as snow and red as a blooming rose, and the hair of his head and his long locks were white as wool, and his eyes like the rays of the sun. When he opened his eyes, he lighted up the whole house, like the sun, and the whole house was very full of light. And when he was taken from the hand of the midwife, he opened his mouth and praised the Lord of righteousness. His father Lamech was afraid of him, and fled, and came to his own father Methuselah. And he said to him: "I have begotten a strange son; he is not like a human being, but resembles the children of the angels of heaven, and his nature is different, and he is not like us, and his eyes are as the rays of the sun, and his countenance is glorious. And it seems to me that he is not sprung from me, but from the angels, and I fear that in his days a wonder may be wrought on the earth. And now, my father, I am here to petition thee and implore thee, that thou mayest go to Enoch, our father, and learn from him the truth, for his dwelling place is among the angels."

And when Methuselah heard the words of his son, he went to Enoch, to the ends of the earth, and he cried aloud, and Enoch heard his voice, and appeared before him, and asked him the reason of his coming. Methuselah told him the cause of his anxiety, and requested him to make the truth known to him. Enoch answered, and said: "The Lord will do a new thing in the earth. There will come a great destruction on the earth, and a deluge for one year. This son who is born unto thee will be left on the earth, and his three children will be saved with him, when all mankind that are on the earth shall die. And there will be a great punishment on the earth, and the earth will be cleansed from all impurity. And now make known to thy son Lamech that he who was born is in truth his son, and call his name Noah, for he will be left to you, and he and his children will be saved from the destruction which will come upon the earth." When Methuselah had heard the words of his father, who showed him all the secret things, he returned home, and he called the child Noah, for he would cause the earth to rejoice in compensation for all destruction.


Compare that to the description of Christ by John in REV...

12 I turned around to see who was talking to me, and I saw seven gold lampstands,13 and among them there was what looked like a human being, wearing a robe that reached to his feet, and a gold band around his chest.14 His hair was white as wool, or as snow, and his eyes blazed like fire;15

Richard Amiel McGough
10-25-2011, 05:52 AM
Heb 13:13

Here is that old piece of writing about Noah's birth if you are still interested...



NOAH--THE BIRTH OF NOAH
Methuselah took a wife for his son Lamech, and she bore him a man child. The body of the babe was white as snow and red as a blooming rose, and the hair of his head and his long locks were white as wool, and his eyes like the rays of the sun. When he opened his eyes, he lighted up the whole house, like the sun, and the whole house was very full of light. And when he was taken from the hand of the midwife, he opened his mouth and praised the Lord of righteousness. His father Lamech was afraid of him, and fled, and came to his own father Methuselah. And he said to him: "I have begotten a strange son; he is not like a human being, but resembles the children of the angels of heaven, and his nature is different, and he is not like us, and his eyes are as the rays of the sun, and his countenance is glorious. And it seems to me that he is not sprung from me, but from the angels, and I fear that in his days a wonder may be wrought on the earth. And now, my father, I am here to petition thee and implore thee, that thou mayest go to Enoch, our father, and learn from him the truth, for his dwelling place is among the angels."

And when Methuselah heard the words of his son, he went to Enoch, to the ends of the earth, and he cried aloud, and Enoch heard his voice, and appeared before him, and asked him the reason of his coming. Methuselah told him the cause of his anxiety, and requested him to make the truth known to him. Enoch answered, and said: "The Lord will do a new thing in the earth. There will come a great destruction on the earth, and a deluge for one year. This son who is born unto thee will be left on the earth, and his three children will be saved with him, when all mankind that are on the earth shall die. And there will be a great punishment on the earth, and the earth will be cleansed from all impurity. And now make known to thy son Lamech that he who was born is in truth his son, and call his name Noah, for he will be left to you, and he and his children will be saved from the destruction which will come upon the earth." When Methuselah had heard the words of his father, who showed him all the secret things, he returned home, and he called the child Noah, for he would cause the earth to rejoice in compensation for all destruction.


Compare that to the description of Christ by John in REV...

12 I turned around to see who was talking to me, and I saw seven gold lampstands,13 and among them there was what looked like a human being, wearing a robe that reached to his feet, and a gold band around his chest.14 His hair was white as wool, or as snow, and his eyes blazed like fire;15
Sharon,

Thanks for sharing this. The book of Enoch was written in the second century BC. It is another lucid example of how the Bible is filled with common pagan mythology that predates the NT. The description of Christ in the book of Revelation was obvioulsy copied from stories like this one.

It is facts like these that discredit the Bible as special or inspired by God. All the pagan mythology of fallen angels having sex with humans, and super beings with magical powers and babies that speak praise shortly after birth are all signs of pagan mythology. It is interesting the the Koran tell a similar story about Jesus speaking of God soon after birth. Personally, I find this all entirely unbelievable. Why would you beleive these old fairy tales?

All the best,

Richard

Sharon
10-25-2011, 06:03 AM
Richard..

There are many people that were visited by God in the Old Scripts and hence, shown many things 'of wonder' that they tried to record as best they can. Would it be so hard as to believe that God still visits His people today..or did that only occur back then?? I can say for fact that these visits still take place and many are being shown more of the 'hidden' Knowledge that is wovwn throughout the Word. Unfortunately for them (but that is the only unfortunate thing about it) is that they have the proof for themselves and can only plant the seeds for others. Having said that, I would like to address the point you made about hybrids. Yes, indeed, this is happening. God Himself had 'creatures' with the head of an eagle but body of a man (and so on) with the 'creature that had very HIGH RIMS AND EYES FLASHING ALL AROUND IT'. (Just remember the man describing this 'creature' had NEVER seen a light bulb!!). Then we have the Book of Enoch..where he describes seeing the half human half animal creatures..ie..the head of an animal and the body of a man and visa versa. THEN..we have the serpent in the garden of eden who WAS UPRIGHT as God then cursed him to slither on his stomach.
THEN..we have the scorpion beings in REV. who invade the earth..those creatures having the human face, tail of a scorpion, teeth of a lion.

THEEEENN..we have those people today who are coming forward with 'secret information' about the genetic experiments that are allegedly taking place underground. The reptillians were thought to be a big joke when first mentioned but just read this small verse from Enoch...

XLII.
Of how Enoch saw the key-holders and guards of the gates of hell standing.

'SAW the key-holders and guards of the gates of hell standing, like great serpents, and their faces like extinguished lamps, and their eyes of fire, their sharp teeth, and I saw all the Lord's works, how they are right, while the works of man are some good, and others bad,.....'

I remember reading a very old script which, I think, was arabic. This script went on to speak of having 'the scorpion beings' present in those days. Now read about the 'scorpion described' beings in REV. and see if that doesn't sound like an invasion of another species.

God said that His mysteries will be revealed. What I have learnt is to just listen..no matter how outragious or unbelievable it is..just keep it in mind and eventually He will show the Truth. A lot of the conspiracy theories have proven to be correct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Orbiz10j-9k

Here is one vid. that is quite interesting..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8flxGCIeoPk&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL5565F4F2304776DC

Sharon
10-25-2011, 06:31 AM
Richard..

I don't believe they are discrediting the Bible so much as confirming it.

These prophets wrote what the Lord gave them, they wrote what THEY saw. They did not just lie and pretend to have seen these things but 'really copied it from pagan myth'.

The fallen angel did go in to the human women..


Wickedness in the World
1 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the 'sons of God' saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with[a] humans forever, for they are mortal[b]; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.

...you do not believe this verse??

...don't believe that God showed Himself back in BC as well as in Revelations?? Just because one prophet saw Him back then..then another prophet is up on plagarism charges?? Oh dear!!

Richard Amiel McGough
10-25-2011, 06:36 AM
Richard..

There are many people that were visited by God in the Old Scripts and hence, shown many things 'of wonder' that they tried to record as best they can. Would it be so hard as to believe that God still visits His people today..or did that only occur back then?? I can say for fact that these visits still take place and many are being shown more of the 'hidden' Knowledge that is wovwn throughout the Word. Unfortunately for them (but that is the only unfortunate thing about it) is that they have the proof for themselves and can only plant the seeds for others. Having said that, I would like to address the point you made about hybrids. Yes, indeed, this is happening. God Himself had 'creatures' with the head of an eagle but body of a man (and so on) with the 'creature that had very HIGH RIMS AND EYES FLASHING ALL AROUND IT'. (Just remember the man describing this 'creature' had NEVER seen a light bulb!!). Then we have the Book of Enoch..where he describes seeing the half human half animal creatures..ie..the head of an animal and the body of a man and visa versa. THEN..we have the serpent in the garden of eden who WAS UPRIGHT as God then cursed him to slither on his stomach.
THEN..we have the scorpion beings in REV. who invade the earth..those creatures having the human face, tail of a scorpion, teeth of a lion.

THEEEENN..we have those people today who are coming forward with 'secret information' about the genetic experiments that are allegedly taking place underground. The reptillians were thought to be a big joke when first mentioned but just read this small verse from Enoch...

XLII.
Of how Enoch saw the key-holders and guards of the gates of hell standing.

'SAW the key-holders and guards of the gates of hell standing, like great serpents, and their faces like extinguished lamps, and their eyes of fire, their sharp teeth, and I saw all the Lord's works, how they are right, while the works of man are some good, and others bad,.....'

I remember reading a very old script which, I think, was arabic. This script went on to speak of having 'the scorpion beings' present in those days. Now read about the 'scorpion described' beings in REV. and see if that doesn't sound like an invasion of another species.

God said that His mysteries will be revealed. What I have learnt is to just listen..no matter how outragious or unbelievable it is..just keep it in mind and eventually He will show the Truth. A lot of the conspiracy theories have proven to be correct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Orbiz10j-9k

Here is one vid. that is quite interesting..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8flxGCIeoPk&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL5565F4F2304776DC
Good morning Sharon, :yo:

It seems like you don't understand symbolic language. The Bible and many other books, both ancient and modern, use fantastic animals as symbols. For example, Daniel's vision of the four creatures and his vision of the four kingdoms represented as a statue. Obviously, the countries so represented were not actually shaped like the animals or the man. Those were just symbols. Neither is there any reason to believe that the four cherubim around the throne of God are literal creatures. Symbols, symbols, symbols. I thought this was obvious to everyone.

And it seems to me it's a lot easier to make up a story about angels and demons than to actually meet them!

You ask if it would be "so hard as to believe that God still visits His people today..or did that only occur back then??" - I answer YES YES YES! It is nearly impossible to believe that God is doing anything like that. The stories read like the mythology that was merely invented by creative writers. It can be very interesting to study to learn about human psychology, but to think it represents literal history of alien encounters? No way. I see no reason to believe any of that. Don't you think its a bit odd that such reports flourish only when they cannot be confirmed? Why is there no evidence? No remnants of alien bones or space crafts? No skelitons of Big Foot. No remnants of Noah's ark. It's all fiction!

Have you heard of Occam's razor? It basically says that the simplest solution that accounts for all the facts is the most likely solution to be true. All smart people understand and use this principle. And in this case, the solution I have proposed - that its all fiction - is by far the simplest and as yet I have never been shown any EVIDENCE that would suggest it is not the true solution.

I'm really glad you brought this up since the whole world is being engulfed with a wierd fascination for space aliens. This is largely the medias fault. They are selling shows like "Ancient Aliens" and "Monster Quest" and all that to make money off gullible people.

Great chatting,

Richard

Sharon
10-25-2011, 06:55 AM
This is where the verse ..'it is a wicked generation that asks for proof'..ie..those who do not have the 'contact' NEED the proof..because that is all they have to go on.

Where is it written that ALL are symbolic?? Where is it written that it is ONLY symbolic??

I remember speaking to an old man about the first Time that he saw a real car..told me that they were terrified and ran behind something to hide as they saw this 'big creature with two eyes at the front' just roar up. They were kids.

Now read this description from someone who had fire on a stick for light...

15 Now as I looked at the living creatures, behold, a wheel was on the earth beside each living creature with its four faces. 16 The appearance of the wheels and their workings was like the color of beryl, and all four had the same likeness. The appearance of their workings was, as it were, a wheel in the middle of a wheel. 17 When they moved, they went toward any one of four directions; they did not turn aside when they went. 18 As for their rims, they were so high they were awesome; and their rims were full of eyes, all around the four of them. 19 When the living creatures went, the wheels went beside them; and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. 20 Wherever the spirit wanted to go, they went, because there the spirit went; and the wheels were lifted together with them, for the spirit of the living creatures[c]was in the wheels. 21 When those went, these went; when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up together with them, for the spirit of the living creatures[d]was in the wheels.
22 The likeness of the firmament above the heads of the living creatures[e]was like the color of an awesome crystal, stretched out over their heads. 23 And under the firmament their wings spread out straight, one toward another. Each one had two which covered one side, and each one had two which covered the other side of the body. 24 When they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of many waters, like the voice of the Almighty, a tumult like the noise of an army; and when they stood still, they let down their wings. 25 A voice came from above the firmament that was over their heads; whenever they stood, they let down their wings.
26 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it. 27 Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD.


I think most of us have come far enought to know what that is describing!!


I'll post this again and say...I don't think everyone believes that the 'whole alien thing' is a load of fiction..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Orbiz10j-9k

Richard Amiel McGough
10-25-2011, 07:13 AM
This is where the verse ..'it is a wicked generation that asks for proof'..ie..those who do not have the 'contact' NEED the proof..because that is all they have to go on.

Ha! Too bad God left out the verse that says "This stupid and gullible generation will accept no proof that their imaginations are vain!"

Without proof, how are your beliefs any different than the tooth fairy and the Easter Bunny?

And besides, there is no verse like the one you suggest. The actual verse speaks of a "sign" which is different than the modern concept of "proof." The scientific method didn't exist back then, remember?

And according to the Christ himself, the presence of the Son of God was all the proof they needed. This was not an instruction that we should believe every fable told by every fool.

And what was the world like when everyone was superstitious and ignorant and beleived what they were told without any "proof?" It was a nasty place. You could get a scratch and die from gangrene. There were no antibiotics, and God was quite reticent then as now to answer prayers!

Why do you glory in ignoance and superstition as if it were the very Word of God?



Where is it written that ALL are symbolic?? Where is it written that it is ONLY symbolic??

It's not "written" because it is understood by those with understanding.



I remember speaking to an old man about the first Time that he saw a real car..told me that they were terrified and ran behind something to hide as they saw this 'big creature with two eyes at the front' just roar up. They were kids.

Now read this description from someone who had fire on a stick for light...

15 Now as I looked at the living creatures, behold, a wheel was on the earth beside each living creature with its four faces. 16 The appearance of the wheels and their workings was like the color of beryl, and all four had the same likeness. The appearance of their workings was, as it were, a wheel in the middle of a wheel. 17 When they moved, they went toward any one of four directions; they did not turn aside when they went. 18 As for their rims, they were so high they were awesome; and their rims were full of eyes, all around the four of them. 19 When the living creatures went, the wheels went beside them; and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. 20 Wherever the spirit wanted to go, they went, because there the spirit went; and the wheels were lifted together with them, for the spirit of the living creatures[c]was in the wheels. 21 When those went, these went; when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up together with them, for the spirit of the living creatures[d]was in the wheels.
22 The likeness of the firmament above the heads of the living creatures[e]was like the color of an awesome crystal, stretched out over their heads. 23 And under the firmament their wings spread out straight, one toward another. Each one had two which covered one side, and each one had two which covered the other side of the body. 24 When they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of many waters, like the voice of the Almighty, a tumult like the noise of an army; and when they stood still, they let down their wings. 25 A voice came from above the firmament that was over their heads; whenever they stood, they let down their wings.
26 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it. 27 Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD.


I think most of us have come far enought to know what that is describing!!

Right ... Ezekiel's "visions of God" were really visions of space aliens in their space ship. Brilliant.




I'll post this again and say...I don't think everyone believes that the 'whole alien thing' is a load of fiction..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Orbiz10j-9k
That's the third time you posted that link. Does it contain anything but words? Does it give me an evidence? If not, what good is it?

Sharon
10-25-2011, 09:05 AM
'Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from[d] the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand.'

Richard Amiel McGough
10-25-2011, 09:23 AM
'Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from[d] the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand.'
And this is supposed to justify your belief in pagan mythology and foolish superstitions?

Sharon
10-25-2011, 08:29 PM
With the first coming of Jesus, He brought with Him a new way, a New Testament. The people who believed that 'they knew better' then cursed at Him and would not accept what He was trying to show them. They trusted in their own beliefs and closed their eyes and ears to Him, eventually killing Him.

Now we have His second coming approaching and, again, He is opening up the Scripts to new information and is doing so in the Spiritual communication..(as that was a gift from His first visit)..BUT, there are still those who will turn from the information and revealing of His Mysteries, because they believe they know more. There are some that are scared of being deceived, scared of being 'taken for a fool', being scared of offending God (just as some of the Jews thought they would offend if they believed Jesus) and there are some that are just scared...but as much as they don't want to believe, there are some of us out here that are being 'visited' and are being 'shown' and have 'witnessed' the awesomness of being in His Presence.

Myself and my sons have partaken in technology way beyond what this earth has to offer and been shown, and had confirmed, answers to the questions we have asked of Him. I have witnessed Time manipulation, telepathy, telekinesis..I have been taken in the Spirit (what one would refer to today as an OBE) and have been in the actual Presence of the Lord. So I KNOW that these prophets speak of the many things that they have witnessed also and relate to the humility that consumes one in this place.

So, instead of trying to disprove the writings of many prophets just because you haven't had the experience, why don't you follow the Lord's suggestion..ie..'A wise man is quick to listen..slow to speak' and you may find that the Truth will shine bright when you need it to..that He will show what is myth but still give Knowledge from it..because 'even the darkness is Light to Him'!!

Sharon
10-25-2011, 08:48 PM
There are many 'superstitions' that have actually derived from His Word. For example..not eating pork...not transferring blood..not eating an animal that is dead. All these things have, in some cases, brought on superstitions and mis-interpretations when all the Lord was doing was protecting the people from diseases and sickness. The people back than did not have labs and testing equipment ect. Would you eat an animal that was already dead today?? Why not..because it is more than likely diseased. Would you tranfer/drink blood without testing it today. No!! Why??..because it could be diseased. How much bacteria has pork got in it!!?? Now we have been informed (as in the New Testament) that no food is denied...that it is clean to eat now. (although I do not mock those who still prefer not to eat it).

There is a 'freedom' that the Lord has given some that are in understanding of His ways. For example..a believer in God..ie...one who would not accept any false deity over Him..would it be wrong for this person to enter a temple of a false god and eat of the food sacrificed to it?? The answer is no..unless the person is in doubt of his/her actions.

1 Corinthians 8
Be Sensitive to Conscience
1 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. 2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.
9 But beware lest somehow this freedom of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

Richard Amiel McGough
10-25-2011, 09:37 PM
With the first coming of Jesus, He brought with Him a new way, a New Testament. The people who believed that 'they knew better' then cursed at Him and would not accept what He was trying to show them. They trusted in their own beliefs and closed their eyes and ears to Him, eventually killing Him.

What are you talking about? I haven't been cursing you! It just so happens that I don't agree with you, and I expressed that fact rather bluntly. Is that some big crime in your world? I find it ironic that you don't recognize the symmetry of the situation - you've bluntly declared you don't agree with me! So why is it OK for you to reject my ideas so vehemently and so blatantly, but its akin to blasphemy for me to reject yours?

You seem just a tad imbalanced, ya know? :sFun_dangling:

I mean, you come storming in here with proclamations about space aliens, time manipulation, the "mark of the beast" microchips and every other fringe idea that can be dredged up from the bowels of the internet, and then you liken yourself to Christ bringing us blind cretans the "new way?" Excuse me for asking, but do you have any clue as to how arrogant, ignorant, and downright nuts you appear to be? Do the words "megalomaniac" and "wackjob" mean anything to you?

You know nothing of my "beliefs" yet you set yourself up as judge and jury and liken me to a blasphemer here on my own forum? Do you have any self-awareness at all?

But I am glad you are here speaking freely. It will help others see how very liberal I am. I allow folks to speak their minds freely without censorshp --- until they cross the line of course. And what is that line? It's pretty obvious. If you become unreachable and refuse to respond to reason, then I might kick you out. But you have no worries right now. You have to be pretty deliberate in your attempt to get kicked out before I would do that. I always give lots of warnings, and I'm very reasonable and forgiving.



Now we have His second coming approaching and, again, He is opening up the Scripts to new information and is doing so in the Spiritual communication..(as that was a gift from His first visit)..BUT, there are still those who will turn from the information and revealing of His Mysteries, because they believe they know more. There are some that are scared of being deceived, scared of being 'taken for a fool', being scared of offending God (just as some of the Jews thought they would offend if they believed Jesus) and there are some that are just scared...but as much as they don't want to believe, there are some of us out here that are being 'visited' and are being 'shown' and have 'witnessed' the awesomness of being in His Presence.

Ah yes. My favorite modern prophecy meme. God is "opening up the Scriptures to reveal new knowledge!" That was Harold Camping's primary claim to fame. He convinced his mindless zombie followers that God had hidden all sorts of "new truths" in the Bible that wouldn't be revealed until the "end times." It says so in Daniel! All True Believers would now find their eyes opended to these new truths that God was revealing through Harold Egbert Camping, a humble Bible teacher. New truths like the MANY INFALLIBLE PROOFS (from the Bible!) that the Rapture and worldwide cataclysmic judgment would happen on May 21, 2011! Millions would die. It was impossible that he could be wrong. The Bible guaranteed it! He bilked gullible Christians out of 80 MILLION DOLLARS in just five years! It costs a lot of many to put up billboards all around the world ...

http://biblewheel.com/images/judgment-day-may-21.jpg

What a load of mindless crap! And you want me to just open my mind to all the septic sludge that you've sucked from the bottom of the intellectual sewers of the internet? Give me a break! I do have a brain, you know.



Myself and my sons have partaken in technology way beyond what this earth has to offer and been shown, and had confirmed, answers to the questions we have asked of Him. I have witnessed Time manipulation, telepathy, telekinesis..I have been taken in the Spirit (what one would refer to today as an OBE) and have been in the actual Presence of the Lord. So I KNOW that these prophets speak of the many things that they have witnessed also and relate to the humility that consumes one in this place.

Bullshit. Nobody who has really been in the presence of the Lord would display such boundless arrogance as you.



So, instead of trying to disprove the writings of many prophets just because you haven't had the experience, why don't you follow the Lord's suggestion..ie..'A wise man is quick to listen..slow to speak' and you may find that the Truth will shine bright when you need it to..that He will show what is myth but still give Knowledge from it..because 'even the darkness is Light to Him'!!
You know nothing of the experiences I have had. This reveals your gross arrogance. You pass judgment with no knowledge. You would do well to take your own advice.

Rose
10-25-2011, 09:49 PM
There are many 'superstitions' that have actually derived from His Word. For example..not eating pork...not transferring blood..not eating an animal that is dead. All these things have, in some cases, brought on superstitions and mis-interpretations when all the Lord was doing was protecting the people from diseases and sickness. The people back than did not have labs and testing equipment ect. Would you eat an animal that was already dead today?? Why not..because it is more than likely diseased. Would you tranfer/drink blood without testing it today. No!! Why??..because it could be diseased. How much bacteria has pork got in it!!?? Now we have been informed (as in the New Testament) that no food is denied...that it is clean to eat now. (although I do not mock those who still prefer not to eat it).


Hi Sharon,

I have a question. If as you say, the reason that certain foods like pork, and blood were considered unclean was because of carrying diseases which could not be tested as we do today...then why did the rules suddenly change in the first century under the New Covenant? First century folk had no better ways of testing food then their ancestors did, but instantly all foods were considered clean. What's up with that?

All the Best,
Rose

Sharon
10-25-2011, 11:13 PM
I did not say that you were cursing me. I said that 'they' back then, cursed Jesus. What I said about people today was...BUT, there are still those who will turn from the information and revealing of His Mysteries, because they believe they know more. There are some that are scared of being deceived, scared of being 'taken for a fool', being scared of offending God (just as some of the Jews thought they would offend if they believed Jesus) and there are some that are just scared...

Please don't put words into my mouth.

..and I do hope that you allow people to speak their beliefs as the 'law' actually allows...not just you. The subtle threats of being booted off this site only tends to make you sound a little power hungry..it's either my way or you're out?? Well, I believe this is not a site that I would enjoy so I will leave now..with one last quote repeated..

'Be careful who you entertain as you may be entertaining one of my angels unawares'


Thankyou for all those who welcomed a stranger..

Regards...SHARON.

Sharon
10-25-2011, 11:36 PM
Just to answer you before I go rose..

Why didn't the people stop eating pork straight after He died?..because most of them didn't believe in what He had to say...But ask yourself now..why all of a sudden, are these verses opening up..why are more and more people 'seeing' the higher meaning in the Scripts?? Because, as God said, 'eyes and ears will be opened'...and now that the Time is upon us..ask yourself why all the false religions are trying to drag people from the Truth and there are more people choosing to be anti-Christ rather than Pro-Christ in this day when, on the other hand, there are people gaining more Knowledge and understanding..why?..because there is a spiritual battle that goes on above their heads that they are not even aware of!! It is written that this would be the case..the anti-Christ gathering his armies..and the false prophets are not just confined to the earth...test the spirit!!


To 'Rose' from 'Sharon'!!

Richard Amiel McGough
10-26-2011, 05:28 AM
..and I do hope that you allow people to speak their beliefs as the 'law' actually allows...not just you. The subtle threats of being booted off this site only tends to make you sound a little power hungry..it's either my way or you're out?? Well, I believe this is not a site that I would enjoy so I will leave now..with one last quote repeated..

I did not threaten you in any way at all, implicitly or explicilty. On the contrary, I told you that I was NOT threatening you. I explicitly stated that I generally DO NOT boot people off the forum for speaking their own mind. I told you that you would have to go out of your way to get banned from this forum. I said this to reasure you that it was OK for you to speak bluntly and plainly. But you didn't understand that any more than you understood any of the other things I wrote, judging by your failure to respond.

Have a nice day.