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Rose
05-18-2010, 08:47 AM
If salvation for all is the "Greater Good", and God’s will is that all be saved….can God do anything less than Save All? If God has spoken even one time that all men shall be saved, can He do any less then save all men and still remain true to His Word?
.
1Tim.2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him (Jesus) power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Rom.11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

.
If the Apostle Paul, being but a mere man desired the "Greater Good" for all men, and that is to be saved, can any less be expected of God?
.

Rom.10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

1Cor.10:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1Cor.10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
.
We know with God all things are possible, and God works all things according to His own will, so if it is God’s desire that all men be saved….it must be so.
.
Eph.1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
.
If one can be saved….two can be saved, all can be saved!


Rose

joel
05-18-2010, 11:07 AM
Rose,

Amen.

When Paul contrasted the two men, Adam and Christ, in Romans 5, it is apparent that all persons were made sinners.....in Adam, and.....all are subject to death. That includes every person without exception.

We know that Christ's sacrifice far over shadows the sin, offense, transgression of Adam..............so........all = all. To force it to say otherwise is to interject a foreign statement into the facts of truth.

I hear many force into the statements.....free will.....well......did you have anything to say about the 1st all?

Joel

Clifford
07-06-2010, 07:31 PM
If salvation for all is the "Greater Good", and God’s will is that all be saved….can God do anything less than Save All? If God has spoken even one time that all men shall be saved, can He do any less then save all men and still remain true to His Word?
.
1Tim.2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him (Jesus) power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Rom.11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

.
If the Apostle Paul, being but a mere man desired the "Greater Good" for all men, and that is to be saved, can any less be expected of God?
.

Rom.10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

1Cor.10:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1Cor.10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
.
We know with God all things are possible, and God works all things according to His own will, so if it is God’s desire that all men be saved….it must be so.
.
Eph.1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
.
If one can be saved….two can be saved, all can be saved!


Rose

Hi Rose,


1Tim.2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God's will is not always done. For example, its God's will for a Christian not to lie or steal. However you could find a Christian that has lied or stole.


John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

Might believe.. Might means possible, not something that will take place.


John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Will draw all men unto me to give them the opportunity to receive salvation. But its still a persons choice.


John 17:2 As thou hast given him (Jesus) power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Only to as many as thou hast given him. Does not say to everyone.


Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.


Seeing the salvation of God and receiving it is two different things.


Rom.11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

He has mercy upon all, but that does not mean all receive His mercy.


.
If the Apostle Paul, being but a mere man desired the "Greater Good" for all men, and that is to be saved, can any less be expected of God?

God desires it, but not all receive it.


We know with God all things are possible, and God works all things according to His own will, so if it is God’s desire that all men be saved….it must be so.

It God's desire that His children walk in His ways and not sin, but we know that we slip up from time to time. So desiring something does not mean it will come to pass, even with God.


If one can be saved….two can be saved, all can be saved!

All can be saved, but all won't be saved. That is clear from numerous other scriptures that I have quoted in previous posts. So the scriptures you quoted above must be interpreted in light of those scriptures. They do not stand alone.

Clifford

CWH
07-06-2010, 08:02 PM
Hi Rose,

Aa we all know "all" in the bible sometimes does not really mean all i.e everything or everyone. It just an exaggeration see some examples:

Dan 2:39 After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you; and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

This is the kingdom of Greece, which is said to rule over ALL THE EARTH.

Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days [that] a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.

So can all really be saved? No, except those who does the will of the Father in heaven...simple, clear and direct:

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Many Blessings.

Rose
07-06-2010, 08:12 PM
Hi Rose,



God's will is not always done. For example, its God's will for a Christian not to lie or steal. However you could find a Christian that has lied or stole.



Might believe.. Might means possible, not something that will take place.



Will draw all men unto me to give them the opportunity to receive salvation. But its still a persons choice.



Only to as many as thou hast given him. Does not say to everyone.



Seeing the salvation of God and receiving it is two different things.



He has mercy upon all, but that does not mean all receive His mercy.



God desires it, but not all receive it.



It God's desire that His children walk in His ways and not sin, but we know that we slip up from time to time. So desiring something does not mean it will come to pass, even with God.



All can be saved, but all won't be saved. That is clear from numerous other scriptures that I have quoted in previous posts. So the scriptures you quoted above must be interpreted in light of those scriptures. They do not stand alone.

Clifford

Hi Clifford,

Precisely....all can be saved at some point in time if God so desires, for God works all things after the counsel of His own will. If God desires to have mercy upon all, He will have mercy upon all - nothing more needs to be said.
Eph.1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

As I said before; it is one thing for God to have mercy on all, but all don't receive it, and quite another for God to create a place of eternal punishment for those who don't receive His mercy.

The way I look at it is to see all those who have not received God's mercy as remaining outside the gates of the New Jerusalem until they ask to receive of the living water....at which time they will enter in and partake of God's mercy.

Rose

Clifford
07-07-2010, 08:55 PM
Hi Clifford,

Precisely....all can be saved at some point in time if God so desires, for God works all things after the counsel of His own will. If God desires to have mercy upon all, He will have mercy upon all - nothing more needs to be said.
Eph.1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

As I said before; it is one thing for God to have mercy on all, but all don't receive it, and quite another for God to create a place of eternal punishment for those who don't receive His mercy.

The way I look at it is to see all those who have not received God's mercy as remaining outside the gates of the New Jerusalem until they ask to receive of the living water....at which time they will enter in and partake of God's mercy.

Rose


The way I look at it is to see all those who have not received God's mercy as remaining outside the gates of the New Jerusalem until they ask to receive of the living water....at which time they will enter in and partake of God's mercy.

Hi Rose,

I agree that those who have not received God's mercy remain outside the gates of the New Jerusalem as it says in Rev 22:15

Outside the city are the dogs—the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idol worshipers, and all who love to live a lie.

In Rev:21:8 it further elaborates on this.

All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children.

'But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.'

This is in accord with Rev 20:14-15.

Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Not only are they outside the gates of the New Jerusalem but are in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Nowhere does it say they will get another chance to come into the New Jerusalem. That is just an assumption on your part not backed up by scripture.

We know from Heb 9:27 it is appointed unto men to die once then comes the judgment. According to Heb 6:2 one of the elementary teaching about Christ is eternal judgment.

God's judgment is eternal which I take to mean its final and irreversible.

Clifford

joel
07-11-2010, 04:28 AM
Clifford,

I respectfully ask you to consider that........
the words aionios, aionian, aion;
in innumerable contextual settings cannot mean "eternal".
Do a word study and determine for yourself.
Please don't accept what someone says......they may have it wrong.

God's disciplinary acts do not continue without ceasing.......such a notion makes God to be One Who cannot bring to a finality His work of salvation, but, must continual accept a partial deliverance.

All means all.

He will save all.

Joel

Rose
07-11-2010, 09:51 AM
Hi Rose,

I agree that those who have not received God's mercy remain outside the gates of the New Jerusalem as it says in Rev 22:15

Outside the city are the dogs—the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idol worshipers, and all who love to live a lie.

In Rev:21:8 it further elaborates on this.

All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children.

'But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.'

This is in accord with Rev 20:14-15.

Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Not only are they outside the gates of the New Jerusalem but are in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Nowhere does it say they will get another chance to come into the New Jerusalem. That is just an assumption on your part not backed up by scripture.

Hi Clifford,

It is by no means an assumption - it is indeed backed up by Scripture! It doesn't get any clearer or plainer than WHOSOEVER WILL!
Rev. 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev.22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

There is no more a literal Lake of Fire, then there is a literal New Jerusalem, both are symbolic terms.

New Jerusalem = Believers in Christ
Lake of Fire = the state of being of those are in who are not in Christ


We know from Heb 9:27 it is appointed unto men to die once then comes the judgment. According to Heb 6:2 one of the elementary teaching about Christ is eternal judgment.

God's judgment is eternal which I take to mean its final and irreversible.

Clifford

If you take God's eternal judgment as final and irreversible, then you must also take God's eternal Mercy as final and irreversible! The very nature of the word MERCY means to forgive a judgment, so as long as mercy lasts there can be no irreversible judgment made.

Rose

Clifford
07-11-2010, 02:30 PM
Clifford,

I respectfully ask you to consider that........
the words aionios, aionian, aion;
in innumerable contextual settings cannot mean "eternal".
Do a word study and determine for yourself.
Please don't accept what someone says......they may have it wrong.

God's disciplinary acts do not continue without ceasing.......such a notion makes God to be One Who cannot bring to a finality His work of salvation, but, must continual accept a partial deliverance.

All means all.

He will save all.

Joel

Hi Joel,

Did some research on the word aion, aionion, and found that it can mean eternal or refer to a finite period of time, like an age, depending on the context. Here are a few examples where aionion is used to mean eternal.

John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.

Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Clearly the word aionion is the above two verses means eternal. Our eternal life in Christ has no end. If you always interpret aionion to mean a finite period of time then our life in Christ is really not eternal and will come to an end.

Here is another verse where aionion means eternal according to the context.

1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen.

We know God's dominion will not come to an end so aionion in this context mean eternal.


God's disciplinary acts do not continue without ceasing.......such a notion makes God to be One Who cannot bring to a finality His work of salvation, but, must continual accept a partial deliverance.

All means all.

God's salvation is available to all, but only those who believe and receive it will partake of it. If God made everyone accept His salvation then why doesn't he just make everyone receive His salvation now and the world would be a much better place.

If you believe all will be saved then how do you explain verses such as these.

Matt. 25:46, And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life.

Note the same word for eternal (aionion) is used of those who go away into eternal life and those who go into the eternal fire.

2 Thess. 1:9, And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

Jude 7, Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire.

Clifford

Clifford
07-11-2010, 02:48 PM
Hi Clifford,

It is by no means an assumption - it is indeed backed up by Scripture! It doesn't get any clearer or plainer than WHOSOEVER WILL!
Rev. 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev.22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

There is no more a literal Lake of Fire, then there is a literal New Jerusalem, both are symbolic terms.

New Jerusalem = Believers in Christ
Lake of Fire = the state of being of those are in who are not in Christ



If you take God's eternal judgment as final and irreversible, then you must also take God's eternal Mercy as final and irreversible! The very nature of the word MERCY means to forgive a judgment, so as long as mercy lasts there can be no irreversible judgment made.

Rose

Hi Rose,


It is by no means an assumption - it is indeed backed up by Scripture! It doesn't get any clearer or plainer than WHOSOEVER WILL!
Rev. 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev.22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

There is no more a literal Lake of Fire, then there is a literal New Jerusalem, both are symbolic terms.

New Jerusalem = Believers in Christ
Lake of Fire = the state of being of those are in who are not in Christ

Remember, Jesus was speaking those words through John to people who were alive at that time, not to those who were already dead. So the whosoever will is an invitation to those who were alive to come to the water of life.

I agree that the Lake of Fire is the state of those who are not in Christ. That is why they are in that place. Whether it is literally a place of burning sulfur or not is besides the point, which is, it is a place where those who have not received eternal life through Christ go. As I said in my previous post, it does not say whether those who go to that place will ever get a chance to get out. That is what I meant when I said you were making an assumption that they would. I find it interesting that the Lake of Fire is called the second death.. Sounds like irreversible finality.

Clifford

joel
07-11-2010, 04:02 PM
Hi Joel,

Did some research on the word aion, aionion, and found that it can mean eternal or refer to a finite period of time, like an age, depending on the context. Here are a few examples where aionion is used to mean eternal.

John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.

Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Clearly the word aionion is the above two verses means eternal. Our eternal life in Christ has no end. If you always interpret aionion to mean a finite period of time then our life in Christ is really not eternal and will come to an end.

Here is another verse where aionion means eternal according to the context.

1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen.

We know God's dominion will not come to an end so aionion in this context mean eternal.



God's salvation is available to all, but only those who believe and receive it will partake of it. If God made everyone accept His salvation then why doesn't he just make everyone receive His salvation now and the world would be a much better place.

If you believe all will be saved then how do you explain verses such as these.

Matt. 25:46, And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life.

Note the same word for eternal (aionion) is used of those who go away into eternal life and those who go into the eternal fire.

2 Thess. 1:9, And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

Jude 7, Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire.

Clifford

Clifford,

you see that God's judgment upon sin is justified.

and so it is.

you see that God's judgment is upon all who are contentious, and who are unpersuaded as to the truth, but are persuaded unto unrighteousness......and so it is true also.

And yet.....you cannot see......
that the judgment is only temporary....
not everlasting......
nor remaining without ceasing....
such judgment would be.....
above and beyond the penalty.....

Could the translators not have erred.....
when they tried to protray....................
the consequence of our missing the mark......
when we said....not this....but this way..........
that it will last without ceasing,
that it will always remain,
a blot on our spirit,
a reproach to your name.

No.
It does not compute.
Pain without ceasing, free fall without parachute.
I will not accept it,
I will not proclaim,
a torment without appeasing,
judgment profane.

Bring your refrain,
a dying response,
My Master's name,
my lips announce.

He is coming,
in clouds ever clear.
His presence,
so near.

Joel

Rose
07-11-2010, 05:46 PM
Hi Rose,



Remember, Jesus was speaking those words through John to people who were alive at that time, not to those who were already dead. So the whosoever will is an invitation to those who were alive to come to the water of life.

Hi Clifford,

In Revelation 20, John was being shown a vision of the Judgment, so it most certainly was about those who had died - that is when judgment happens, so the living water being offered to all who ask was given in that context.


I agree that the Lake of Fire is the state of those who are not in Christ. That is why they are in that place. Whether it is literally a place of burning sulfur or not is besides the point, which is, it is a place where those who have not received eternal life through Christ go. As I said in my previous post, it does not say whether those who go to that place will ever get a chance to get out. That is what I meant when I said you were making an assumption that they would. I find it interesting that the Lake of Fire is called the second death.. Sounds like irreversible finality.

Clifford

Like I said in my previous post, Eternal Mercy trumps eternal judgment...you can't have it both ways.


Rose

Clifford
07-11-2010, 07:50 PM
Clifford,

you see that God's judgment upon sin is justified.

and so it is.

you see that God's judgment is upon all who are contentious, and who are unpersuaded as to the truth, but are persuaded unto unrighteousness......and so it is true also.

And yet.....you cannot see......
that the judgment is only temporary....
not everlasting......
nor remaining without ceasing....
such judgment would be.....
above and beyond the penalty.....

Could the translators not have erred.....
when they tried to protray....................
the consequence of our missing the mark......
when we said....not this....but this way..........
that it will last without ceasing,
that it will always remain,
a blot on our spirit,
a reproach to your name.

No.
It does not compute.
Pain without ceasing, free fall without parachute.
I will not accept it,
I will not proclaim,
a torment without appeasing,
judgment profane.

Bring your refrain,
a dying response,
My Master's name,
my lips announce.

He is coming,
in clouds ever clear.
His presence,
so near.

Joel

Hi Joel,

I simply did what you asked and checked out the meaning of the Greek word aion and found out it can mean a period of time like an age or eternal depending on the context. Whether you accept that or not is up to you, but a good student of the Bible should set aside personal opinions and preferences and try to determine what a word means by context and previous usage.

Clifford

Clifford
07-11-2010, 08:16 PM
Hi Clifford,

In Revelation 20, John was being shown a vision of the Judgment, so it most certainly was about those who had died - that is when judgment happens, so the living water being offered to all who ask was given in that context.

Like I said in my previous post, Eternal Mercy trumps eternal judgment...you can't have it both ways.


Rose

Hi Rose,


In Revelation 20, John was being shown a vision of the Judgment, so it most certainly was about those who had died - that is when judgment happens, so the living water being offered to all who ask was given in that context.

Yes, he was shown a vision of the Judgment in chapter 20, but the invitation to the living water is made in chapters 21 and 22. In Revelation 22:16 it says the message of Revelation was given to the Churches.

'I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this message for the churches. I am both the source of David and the heir to his throne. I am the bright morning star.'

The Spirit and the bride say, 'Come.' Let anyone who hears this say, 'Come.' Let anyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who desires drink freely from the water of life. Rev 22:16-17


Like I said in my previous post, Eternal Mercy trumps eternal judgment...you can't have it both ways.

Yes, mercy triumphs over judgment, but the judgment will be merciless to those you have shown no mercy. James 2:13

God would rather show mercy then judge, but unfortunately some will not receive that mercy, so the judgment will be merciless.

Clifford

Rose
07-11-2010, 10:26 PM
Hi Rose,



Yes, he was shown a vision of the Judgment in chapter 20, but the invitation to the living water is made in chapters 21 and 22. In Revelation 22:16 it says the message of Revelation was given to the Churches.

'I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this message for the churches. I am both the source of David and the heir to his throne. I am the bright morning star.'

The Spirit and the bride say, 'Come.' Let anyone who hears this say, 'Come.' Let anyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who desires drink freely from the water of life. Rev 22:16-17

Yes, Jesus was speaking to the 7 churches, but it wasn't to them alone because chapter 21 speaks of the living waters flowing out of the New Jerusalem. At the time of John vision salvation (living waters of Christ) was already available to anyone who asked, so you can't constrain the context of that verse to apply only to those who were alive at that time. Its application is timeless, an eternal truth.




Yes, mercy triumphs over judgment, but the judgment will be merciless to those you have shown no mercy. James 2:13

God would rather show mercy then judge, but unfortunately some will not receive that mercy, so the judgment will be merciless.

Clifford

The way I have always interpreted James 2:13 is that it says: judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy, BUT Gods Mercy always triumphs over judgment....in that manner God is always victorious because His Grace reigns.

Rom.5:20-21 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rose

joel
07-12-2010, 05:17 PM
I simply did what you asked and checked out the meaning of the Greek word aion and found out it can mean a period of time like an age or eternal depending on the context.

Since there are two different meanings, as you assert, that the word aion can mean two different things; one, age-lasting, and, the other, lasting eternally, without ceasing........can you provide an example of the latter?

Joel

joel
07-15-2010, 07:49 PM
One may say, "His judgment upon man lasts forever,"

another may reply, "No, His judgment only lasts a time",

and when it is done,........He is fine,

He is assuaged,......His rage is only for an age,

a limited time....small.....

a little....rage......

against the sin....the transgression, .....the offense.....the all....

that hurt Him so much.....that pained Him beyond guage....

it cannot be measured how much He suffered......

the price He paid.

He sent His only Son,

the One of greatest worth,

the Apple of His eye,

The Gem of all of all the earth......

the highest of all that is the re-birth......

the beginning of end,

the end of all that began,

man as God, God as man

the culmination of His Plan.

Clifford
07-17-2010, 07:52 PM
Since there are two different meanings, as you assert, that the word aion can mean two different things; one, age-lasting, and, the other, lasting eternally, without ceasing........can you provide an example of the latter?

Joel

Hi Joel,

I did on a previous posts in this thread. I listed them again below.

Here they are:

John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.

Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Clearly the word aionion is the above two verses means eternal. Our eternal life in Christ has no end. If you always interpret aionion to mean a finite period of time then our life in Christ is really not eternal and will come to an end.

Here is another verse where aionion means eternal according to the context.

1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen.

We know God's dominion will not come to an end so aionion in this context mean eternal.

Clifford

Clifford
07-17-2010, 08:52 PM
Yes, Jesus was speaking to the 7 churches, but it wasn't to them alone because chapter 21 speaks of the living waters flowing out of the New Jerusalem. At the time of John vision salvation (living waters of Christ) was already available to anyone who asked, so you can't constrain the context of that verse to apply only to those who were alive at that time. Its application is timeless, an eternal truth.





The way I have always interpreted James 2:13 is that it says: judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy, BUT Gods Mercy always triumphs over judgment....in that manner God is always victorious because His Grace reigns.

Rom.5:20-21 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rose

Hi Rose,


Yes, Jesus was speaking to the 7 churches, but it wasn't to them alone because chapter 21 speaks of the living waters flowing out of the New Jerusalem. At the time of John vision salvation (living waters of Christ) was already available to anyone who asked, so you can't constrain the context of that verse to apply only to those who were alive at that time. Its application is timeless, an eternal truth.

My point was that it was written to those who were living. It was sent to the seven churches, but it applies to all those living who hear it in the future. Those who have died are judged and if their name was not found written in the Lamb's book of life they were cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death. People who are born into this life are born into sin and are by default separated from God until they come into a relationship with Jesus Christ. When a person is thrown into the Lake of Fire they undergo the second death which suggest to me something that is irreversible and final. The judgment that has been rendered is eternal and won't be altered.

Clifford

Gil
07-18-2010, 06:27 AM
Hell Fire ?


The Shekinah Glory of the Holy Spirit is as a burning fire.
It burns and consumes.
It purifies our conscience and soul as Christians.
It can also burn up one's soul and spirit.
Is their a Hell? Yes. It is within the mind of man.
Man in the flesh either lives in the heaven or hell of his
own mind.

Gil

Rose
07-18-2010, 10:19 AM
Hi Rose,



My point was that it was written to those who were living. It was sent to the seven churches, but it applies to all those living who hear it in the future. Those who have died are judged and if their name was not found written in the Lamb's book of life they were cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death. People who are born into this life are born into sin and are by default separated from God until they come into a relationship with Jesus Christ. When a person is thrown into the Lake of Fire they undergo the second death which suggest to me something that is irreversible and final. The judgment that has been rendered is eternal and won't be altered.

Clifford

Hi Clifford,

The only judgment I see as being rendered eternal and unalterable is that of God's judgment on the Old Covenant system, that is to say the Law. When Christ brought in the New Covenant by the shedding of His blood the Old began to vanish away. That process was finalized when the stones of the temple came down in AD 70 leaving it desolate....to be found no more!

Revelation is the vision given to John of the demise of the Old Covenant system of the Law. When that process was completed in Revelation 20 with the passing away of the Old, we see chapter 21 starting with a New Heaven and Earth...a new system out of which flow living waters which all may partake of. This is outside of the time constraints which were applicable to the Old Covenant system, now all those who are still abiding outside the gates in sin may drink of the living water whenever they wish to enter in to life in Christ.

Rose

EndtimesDeut32/70AD
07-20-2010, 01:30 PM
Hi Clifford,

The only judgment I see as being rendered eternal and unalterable is that of God's judgment on the Old Covenant system, that is to say the Law. When Christ brought in the New Covenant by the shedding of His blood the Old began to vanish away. That process was finalized when the stones of the temple came down in AD 70 leaving it desolate....to be found no more!

Rose
Disagree Rose, but not much time to interact. There is also a individual judgment against the law of sin/death that needs remedied. Romans 8:2 refers to the individual judgment and Romans 10:4 refers to the freedom and ending of the corporal law.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

If 'salvation' is for ALL in the manner that you portray, what is the need to be "born again" in the manner that Jesus taught.?

The middle of Romans talks alot about the need to remedy and be 'saved' that law of sin/death and seperation from the Father/Creator and the rebirth and adoption as sons of God by the Spirit. And it talks of how the creator himself took upon himself the judgment of that law to cancel it for those who believe.

I can understand how you come to your perpsectives if you have a weak historical perspective of things before Abraham... such as the flood, tower of babel, long lives before the flood and the creation of man on the earth. This showed up in the discussion about the old covenant being that which was delievered to Abraham or to Moses. The mosaic covenant is that which was made "OLD" while as Paul mentions in Gal 4, christians are of the promise made to Isaac and covenant made with Abraham.
I think we left that discussion unresoved.

Rose
07-20-2010, 03:37 PM
Disagree Rose, but not much time to interact. There is also a individual judgment against the law of sin/death that needs remedied. Romans 8:2 refers to the individual judgment and Romans 10:4 refers to the freedom and ending of the corporal law.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

If 'salvation' is for ALL in the manner that you portray, what is the need to be "born again" in the manner that Jesus taught.?

The middle of Romans talks alot about the need to remedy and be 'saved' that law of sin/death and seperation from the Father/Creator and the rebirth and adoption as sons of God by the Spirit. And it talks of how the creator himself took upon himself the judgment of that law to cancel it for those who believe.

I can understand how you come to your perpsectives if you have a weak historical perspective of things before Abraham... such as the flood, tower of babel, long lives before the flood and the creation of man on the earth. This showed up in the discussion about the old covenant being that which was delievered to Abraham or to Moses. The mosaic covenant is that which was made "OLD" while as Paul mentions in Gal 4, christians are of the promise made to Isaac and covenant made with Abraham.
I think we left that discussion unresoved.

Hi Endtimes,

To answer your question "what is the need to be "born again" in the manner that Jesus taught.?" very simply I would say the person who receives Christ in this life can begin to grow with a foundation of knowledge and truth, because the kingdom of God is now within them, whereas the person whose life is lived without Christ has a loss in this life which can never be gained even though salvation is received at some point after death.

As I have said in other posts, I believe this life is a time of shaping our souls for eternity....our actions are the one thing that we have control of in this life, so as our knowledge and understanding of God grows it influences our actions, thus we shape our souls.

Rose

Clifford
07-21-2010, 04:56 AM
Hi Clifford,

The only judgment I see as being rendered eternal and unalterable is that of God's judgment on the Old Covenant system, that is to say the Law. When Christ brought in the New Covenant by the shedding of His blood the Old began to vanish away. That process was finalized when the stones of the temple came down in AD 70 leaving it desolate....to be found no more!

Revelation is the vision given to John of the demise of the Old Covenant system of the Law. When that process was completed in Revelation 20 with the passing away of the Old, we see chapter 21 starting with a New Heaven and Earth...a new system out of which flow living waters which all may partake of. This is outside of the time constraints which were applicable to the Old Covenant system, now all those who are still abiding outside the gates in sin may drink of the living water whenever they wish to enter in to life in Christ.

Rose

Hi Rose,

The judgment in Revelation 20 is upon people for it specifically says every person will be judged according to what he has done. When the scripture speaks about the judgment upon the Old Covenant system it uses different terminology. For example in Matthew 24 it uses terms like

the sun will be darkened,
the moon will give no light,
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers in the heavens will be shaken

to describe the passing of one system to another or a change in the established order like one covenant to another.

Similar language in used in 2 peter 3:10 to describe the passing away of the Old Covenant.

But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.

These verses don't talk about people being judged like in Revelation 20 because it is dealing with the judgment of the Old Covenant system whereas Revelation 20 is dealing with the judgment of people.

Clifford

Rose
07-21-2010, 10:18 AM
Hi Rose,

The judgment in Revelation 20 is upon people for it specifically says every person will be judged according to what he has done. When the scripture speaks about the judgment upon the Old Covenant system it uses different terminology. For example in Matthew 24 it uses terms like

the sun will be darkened,
the moon will give no light,
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers in the heavens will be shaken

to describe the passing of one system to another or a change in the established order like one covenant to another.

Similar language in used in 2 peter 3:10 to describe the passing away of the Old Covenant.

But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.

These verses don't talk about people being judged like in Revelation 20 because it is dealing with the judgment of the Old Covenant system whereas Revelation 20 is dealing with the judgment of people.

Clifford

Hi Clifford,

Ah, but Revelation 20 does speak of judgment on the Old system, and immediately after Revelation 21 speaks of the coming in of a New system.
Rev.20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Rev.21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Matt.24, 2Pet, Rev.6, and Rev.20 all speak of the same judgment and passing away of the Old Covenant system of the Law. That is what the entire book of Revelation is about....judgment and destruction of the Old and the ushering in of the New by Jesus Christ.

Judgment upon individuals did not happen at just one point in time....I believe that each person upon death is judged for the works done in this life. The judgment of AD 70 spoken of in Revelation was a corporate judgment upon a system, and those who remained under it died in judgment with it - though I think each individual under the Old system was also judged for the specific works done in their lives.

Rose

Clifford
07-22-2010, 04:43 AM
Hi Clifford,

Ah, but Revelation 20 does speak of judgment on the Old system, and immediately after Revelation 21 speaks of the coming in of a New system.
Rev.20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Rev.21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Matt.24, 2Pet, Rev.6, and Rev.20 all speak of the same judgment and passing away of the Old Covenant system of the Law. That is what the entire book of Revelation is about....judgment and destruction of the Old and the ushering in of the New by Jesus Christ.

Judgment upon individuals did not happen at just one point in time....I believe that each person upon death is judged for the works done in this life. The judgment of AD 70 spoken of in Revelation was a corporate judgment upon a system, and those who remained under it died in judgment with it - though I think each individual under the Old system was also judged for the specific works done in their lives.

Rose

Hi Rose,

I agree that the book of Revelation is mostly about the judgment and dissolution of the Old Covenant system and the bringing in the New Covenant system. However Revelation 20 speaks of the judgment of people too, those who refused to enter into the New Heavens and the New Earth, or the New Covenant, and the consequences thereof, being throw into the Lake of Fire.

Clifford

joel
07-22-2010, 05:14 AM
The judgment of AD 70 spoken of in Revelation was a corporate judgment upon a system, and those who remained under it died in judgment with it - though I think each individual under the Old system was also judged for the specific works done in their lives.


"...a corporate judgment upon a system..." Did God put a system in place, then, later, when it didn't work, destroy the system and those who were in it?

"...those who remained under it died in judgment with it...." You say that God judged the system which He put in place, and judged the entire nation who remained under it.......plus He judges each individual under the Old System.......seems rather "unjust" wouldn't you say?

Could it be that the destruction of the Temple caused the sacrifices under the law of Moses to cease in so far as the High Priest of the order of Melchezedek could enter into the Temple not made with hands in the heavens and perform His holy duties?

Where in the teachings of the apostles are your views concerning the so-called corporate judgment of 70 AD to be found?

Please be specific.......

Joel

Rose
07-22-2010, 11:03 PM
"...a corporate judgment upon a system..." Did God put a system in place, then, later, when it didn't work, destroy the system and those who were in it?

"...those who remained under it died in judgment with it...." You say that God judged the system which He put in place, and judged the entire nation who remained under it.......plus He judges each individual under the Old System.......seems rather "unjust" wouldn't you say?

Could it be that the destruction of the Temple caused the sacrifices under the law of Moses to cease in so far as the High Priest of the order of Melchezedek could enter into the Temple not made with hands in the heavens and perform His holy duties?

Where in the teachings of the apostles are your views concerning the so-called corporate judgment of 70 AD to be found?

Please be specific.......

Joel

If the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 wasn't judgment upon the Old Covenant system of the Law, then what was it?

The individual judgment I was speaking of is that of each man who stands before God accountable for what he has done with his life.

Partaking in the judgment of the nation was the choice of those Jews who chose to hang onto the Law and perish with the Law, instead of accepting Christ who came to free them from the Law.


Rose

joel
07-23-2010, 03:00 AM
Rose, I asked you;

"Where in the teachings of the apostles are your views concerning the so-called corporate judgment of 70 AD to be found?

Please be specific......."

Joel
------------------------------------------------

And you answered with a question;

"If the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 wasn't judgment upon the Old Covenant system of the Law, then what was it?"

Can you direct me to scripture that would be considered the apostle's teaching?

Joel

Rose
07-23-2010, 09:11 AM
Rose, I asked you;

"Where in the teachings of the apostles are your views concerning the so-called corporate judgment of 70 AD to be found?

Please be specific......."

Joel
------------------------------------------------

And you answered with a question;

"If the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 wasn't judgment upon the Old Covenant system of the Law, then what was it?"

Can you direct me to scripture that would be considered the apostle's teaching?

Joel

The term I used "corporate" was descriptive of apostate Israel as a whole, that is to say all those who chose to remain under the Old Covenant system of the Law were judged by that system when it was destroyed, and they perished.
Rom.2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
If you would have answered my question on what the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 represented, then I could have understood exactly what you don't understand and attempted to clarify it for you.


Rose

joel
07-23-2010, 04:16 PM
Rom.2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

If you would have answered my question on what the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 represented, then I could have understood exactly what you don't understand and attempted to clarify it for you.


Rose

O. K.......then.......this conversation is reduced to this..........the destruction of the Temple in AD 70......what did it represent?

What can I find in the scripture, as taught by the apostles, that will aid me in this endeavor?

So.....I will search........the destruction of the temple........and report back to you.

Joel

joel
07-23-2010, 04:35 PM
Rose......I have searched the teachings of the apostles......
and I cannot find............
the destruction of the temple as taught by them.

Maybe this is an oversight...........
or........
maybe I just don't understand......

But,
where
exactly would you find such a teaching?
I am still confused.

Joel

Rose
07-23-2010, 05:33 PM
Rose......I have searched the teachings of the apostles......
and I cannot find............
the destruction of the temple as taught by them.

Maybe this is an oversight...........
or........
maybe I just don't understand......

But,
where
exactly would you find such a teaching?
I am still confused.

Joel

Hi Joel,

Sorry to hear you are confused. I will try and remedy that...:winking0071:

The mention of the Temples destruction of AD 70 happens in the Olivet Discourse when Jesus says that every last stone of the Temple would come down, and that would mark the end of the age.

The reason that the Temple's destruction is not mentioned anywhere else in the New Testament, except in the vision of Revelation is because the NT was written before AD 70. Paul does give reference to the old vanishing away in Hebrews which is a direct indication that the Old Covenant temple system was still in operation, but about to be terminated.

Heb.8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hope that helps...

Rose

alec cotton
08-08-2010, 05:46 AM
Hi Joel,

Sorry to hear you are confused. I will try and remedy that...:winking0071:

The mention of the Temples destruction of AD 70 happens in the Olivet Discourse when Jesus says that every last stone of the Temple would come down, and that would mark the end of the age.

The reason that the Temple's destruction is not mentioned anywhere else in the New Testament, except in the vision of Revelation is because the NT was written before AD 70. Paul does give reference to the old vanishing away in Hebrews which is a direct indication that the Old Covenant temple system was still in operation, but about to be terminated.

Heb.8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hope that helps...

Rose
I am sometimes staggered by the fact that on this forum there is such fierce resistance to the notion of obeying the law of God. When the word 'covenant' is used ,it invariably indicates the Torah. Then the statement is made 'Now that which is old is ready to vanish away. ' .I am constantly insisting that we must obey the laws of God . Invariably the reply is 'we are not justified by the works of the law.' I have never even hinted that we are justified. I am stating categorically that we must submit to his laws. I am constantly reading on this forum about the Mosaic law . The Mosaic law is often spoken of in a derisory fashion. The Siamese twins of preterism and universalism are constantly undermining the kingdom of God. Universalism says ,' It's all right fellas , you can do all the evil that comes to mind . You can be as wicked as you please. God will invite you into heaven eventually. He won't demand restitution . He will never punish you.' Preterism says ' take it easy boys, Nothing terrible is going to happen . It has already happened and all that stuff that John wrote about wasn't. As bad as we thought . It was mainly John exercising poetic licence.'.Personally I take a different view. When I look up in the night sky and see a tiny speck of light. I know from its position that it is a galaxy. It is so vast that if you were to start at one edge and travel to the other edge at 186000 miles a second , it would take you thousands of years to complete the journey. My God is in control of every star asteroid and planet in it, On the other hand ,When I look through my microscope and see the wonder of the miniature world and their almost infinite variety . I recognise the fact that each one has a special part to play in the web of life. My God is aware of every one and is in complete control. This God will surely strike terror into the heart of any thinking man . It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. The fear of that God is the beginning of wisdom . I will submit to him with fear,reverence and awe. If the old covenant has vanished , what has replaced it. What are the rules,regulations . Where are the parameters. What are the limits. Before anyone trots out the feeble excuse ' Love your neighbour' allow me to point out that that is one of the ten commandments. The ten commandments tell us what to do. The rest of the Torah tells us how to do it. We must do what is right . To do what is right we must know what is right. A right understanding of the bible is the only way. .
Alec

Rose
08-08-2010, 09:09 AM
I am sometimes staggered by the fact that on this forum there is such fierce resistance to the notion of obeying the law of God. When the word 'covenant' is used ,it invariably indicates the Torah. Then the statement is made 'Now that which is old is ready to vanish away. ' .I am constantly insisting that we must obey the laws of God . Invariably the reply is 'we are not justified by the works of the law.' I have never even hinted that we are justified. I am stating categorically that we must submit to his laws. I am constantly reading on this forum about the Mosaic law . The Mosaic law is often spoken of in a derisory fashion. Hi Alec,

I am deeply sadden for you Alec, that you live in such a world of bondage. The word "freedom" from the curse of the law means exactly that FREEDOM not bondage. When Paul said the Old Covenant was passing away that was the "whole enchilada" not just a few parts.

The Siamese twins of preterism and universalism are constantly undermining the kingdom of God. Universalism says ,' It's all right fellas , you can do all the evil that comes to mind . You can be as wicked as you please. God will invite you into heaven eventually. He won't demand restitution . He will never punish you.' Preterism says ' take it easy boys, Nothing terrible is going to happen . It has already happened and all that stuff that John wrote about wasn't. As bad as we thought . It was mainly John exercising poetic licence.'.

Grace and forgiveness is what the whole of the New Testament is about, how can Universalism which promotes the very teaching of God's compassion manifest as FORGIVENESS undermine that which is the foundation of what Jesus taught.

You are a little misled on what Preterism is all about. The fundamental teaching of Preterism is fulfillment of all the prophecies of Jesus which does not mean nothing terrible happened. The destruction of a city and it people which took the lives of over a million people and carried multitudes captive is by no means "nothing terrible" it is horrific.


Personally I take a different view. When I look up in the night sky and see a tiny speck of light. I know from its position that it is a galaxy. It is so vast that if you were to start at one edge and travel to the other edge at 186000 miles a second , it would take you thousands of years to complete the journey. My God is in control of every star asteroid and planet in it, On the other hand ,When I look through my microscope and see the wonder of the miniature world and their almost infinite variety . I recognise the fact that each one has a special part to play in the web of life. My God is aware of every one and is in complete control. This God will surely strike terror into the heart of any thinking man . It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. The fear of that God is the beginning of wisdom . I will submit to him with fear,reverence and awe. If the old covenant has vanished , what has replaced it. What are the rules,regulations . Where are the parameters. What are the limits. Before anyone trots out the feeble excuse ' Love your neighbour' allow me to point out that that is one of the ten commandments. The ten commandments tell us what to do. The rest of the Torah tells us how to do it. We must do what is right . To do what is right we must know what is right. A right understanding of the bible is the only way. .
Alec

The New Covenant has replaced the Old. Jesus Christ was the Testator, whose death brought in the New Testament! Jesus has fulfilled ALL the Law and the Prophets...ALL means ALL. If one loves his neighbor as himself he will not do him harm, thus fulfilling all the Ten Commandments!

The ability to show compassion is what sets man apart from the animals, thus God showed us His compassion by pouring out His Grace upon us, which was brought in by Jesus Christ....Grace of God = Love of God.


Rose

Richard Amiel McGough
08-08-2010, 09:32 AM
I am sometimes staggered by the fact that on this forum there is such fierce resistance to the notion of obeying the law of God. When the word 'covenant' is used ,it invariably indicates the Torah. Then the statement is made 'Now that which is old is ready to vanish away. ' . I am constantly insisting that we must obey the laws of God . Invariably the reply is 'we are not justified by the works of the law.' I have never even hinted that we are justified. I am stating categorically that we must submit to his laws. I am constantly reading on this forum about the Mosaic law . The Mosaic law is often spoken of in a derisory fashion.

Hi Alec, :yo:

Man, this topic continues to go in circles! I think it would help if we tried to find the fundamental points upon which we agree. For example, how are we supposed to understand this passage?


Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Why do you reject the idea that the Old Covenant was vanishing away way back in the first century when that passage was written? Is that not what the Bible actually says?



The Siamese twins of preterism and universalism are constantly undermining the kingdom of God. Universalism says ,' It's all right fellas , you can do all the evil that comes to mind . You can be as wicked as you please. God will invite you into heaven eventually. He won't demand restitution . He will never punish you.'

That is a total and complete misrepresentation of the truth, and you really should know it since we have explained it many times. Your argument against Preterism and Universalism is the the same argument that people said against the GOSPEL in Paul's day! The "legalists" (Judaisers) who rejected the Gospel said "Oh no!!! The Gospel let's people get away with their sins!!!" Paul responded by writing this:

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
If you reject of Preterism and Universalism using this argument, then you must also reject the GOSPEL for the same reason.


If the old covenant has vanished , what has replaced it.

The New Covenant! What is Christianity if not the "New Covenant?"

How is it that we can not even agree on the definition of Christianity???


What are the rules,regulations . Where are the parameters. What are the limits. Before anyone trots out the feeble excuse ' Love your neighbour' allow me to point out that that is one of the ten commandments. The ten commandments tell us what to do. The rest of the Torah tells us how to do it. We must do what is right . To do what is right we must know what is right. A right understanding of the bible is the only way. .
Alec
First, "love your neighbor" is not one of the ten commandments.

Second, your assertion that trotting out "love your neighbor" would be a "feeble excuse" makes no sense to me since Paul "trotted out" that idea:

Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
And so did Jesus:

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
So I just do not understand why you reject these teachings which seem to me to be the absolute heart and soul of the Gospel.

All the very best, my friend!

Richard

alec cotton
08-09-2010, 03:44 AM
Hello Richard
Before we start let me assure you that I have the deepest affection and the highest regard for you and Rose. Now let battle commence. You say that this subject is going in circles . It will and you will be forever chasing your tail if you insist on swerving aside when an awkward question or proposition arises. I asked a direct question which I will ask again at the end of this post . (I sure touched a nerve when I mentioned preterism and universalism. )You said that it might help if we tried to find the fundamental points. Exactly!. My whole post was directed at the fundamental point. Next you say: 'How do we understand Hebrews 8:13?' This is how . The old covenant was vanishing away. The old covenant demanded a blood sacrifice for sin . Money would not do. A man could not buy pardon. When a man gave an animal to be sacrificed on his behalf , it was a demonstration of his confidence in the living God. It showed his remorse for doing wrong and his intention of doing right. There is now no more sacrifice for sin. That is a seismic shift . That was world shaking for the Jew. It is perfectly understandable that the established order was violently opposed. What they had never realised was that blood was of no consequence. It was always faith which turned a man's heart to righteousness. The new covenant demands no such physical slaughter.
I will digress for a moment. On the subject of universalism you said 'your argument'===== I presented no argument .; I only stated a simple fact . Universalism states that all men will ultimately enter heaven at the invitation of God no matter how wicked they have been . That is a plain and incontrovertible fact. Next ,your loaded question ; What is Christianity if it is not the new covenant.?.
Christianity is , taking the name of Jesus , being his student , Obeying his commandments seeking to do his bidding. Issuing from this is the new covenant which states that if you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead you will be saved . Because with the heart man believes unto righteousness.. That is the bottom line . Righteousness. What is righteousness ? What is sin?. What is good ?. What is evil ? What is pure and what is vile.. That was and is the fundamental point of my post. If the law of moses is redundant , obsolete,defunct , how can we know what is right and what is wrong. By what rules , regulations ,guidelines do we live. To quote 'love your neighbour as yourself ' is sidestepping . How do I love my neighbour as myself. ?. You just said 'love your neighbour is not one of the ten commandments' I am convinced that it was. As I said The ten commandments tell us what to do . The rest of the Torah tells us how to do it. Now the straight and honest question : The law which Christ as God gave to mankind through moses: Do we obey it or not?
Alec.

alec cotton
08-11-2010, 12:32 PM
I said ,at another time and in another place that silence is a formidable defence. Like a smoke screen , it can obscure the truth without denying it. One person replied that it could be that it is futile to argue because you will not be persuaded.
I say that it is more likely to be a sign of defeatism and the recognition of the futility of defending the indefensible. In my last post I asked the plain, honest and simple question : The law which Jesus Christ as God gave to man through Moses , Do we obey it or not ?. If the answer is No!. Then what is the alternative. By what rules do we live?. Where do the boundaries lie. It is impossible to live without law. You can't even play a game without rules . Anarchy is a myth and an impossibility. It is silly to say 'live by the law of love because that would need reams of explanation which would , of necessity involve rules and regulations. The foundation of the divine law is in two parts . Love God and love your neighbour. It reminds me of the binary system on which all computers depend.0 and 1 . It is that simple and yet it leads to infinite complexity. My understanding of this question will most certainly have a profound effect on my eternal destiny.
For my own part I am fully convinced that I am obliged to live by the divine law . I am ready to be persuaded differently if anyone can show me by writ or logic.
Alec

joel
08-11-2010, 01:07 PM
Alec, you are a man of straight forward logic......beating around the bush, and going off on tangents does not suit you......Bravo.

I think that many people go astray concerning the law.....because, we all know that "righteousness" cannot be reckoned on the basis of law works, and must come only on the basis of faith. That is a bed-rock foundation truth in the scripture.....no ifs, ands or buts about it.

But.....once reckoned righteous.....are we to conclude that the law has no applicability to our daily living?

It is a this very point that Paul struggled in Romans 7.

The law is just, and holy and good. And, our faith has not made the law of no effect.

However, the commandments contained within the law.....they "thou shalt nots"...actually act to arouse sin within us......
When we want to do the good, and agree with the law of God in the inward man
our outer man is linked to sin....which is aroused by the commandment......and it deceives me, and rations death to me, and takes me as a prisoner of war.

But, I must be careful not to abandon the law, and speak of it as if it were the culprit. As a saved sinner, I attempt to comply with the law's demands....knowing and agreeing that righteousness does not come from obedience to the law.......righteousness is reckoned a result of faith in His Word.....separate from works.

But, doesn't a righteous man act righteously? Isn't that.....obedience to the law? Paul had to learn a hard lesson.....one which can only be learned by the one who attempts to live the saved life by the law.....those who have discarded the law cannot learn this valuable lesson.......the discovery that there is operative within us a law, in our flesh, the law of sin.
In our minds, we agree with the law of God. However, the ability to do the righteous demands of the law "I find not".

When, the flesh, attempts to fulfil the righteous requirements of the law there must be a recognition that the fruit of such efforts is dying and will not last.

That is why Paul cried out at the close of Romans 7......Oh wretched man that I am.....who will deliver me from the body of this death?

And the answer is..........Thanks be unto God.....who through Christ loved me and gave Himself for me.

There is a new law in Romans 8.........look there and see that the law is now inward.......it is operative within us. It frees us from the alien, opposition of the law of sin and death that operates in our members.

Joel

Rose
08-11-2010, 04:41 PM
I said ,at another time and in another place that silence is a formidable defence. Like a smoke screen , it can obscure the truth without denying it. One person replied that it could be that it is futile to argue because you will not be persuaded.
I say that it is more likely to be a sign of defeatism and the recognition of the futility of defending the indefensible. In my last post I asked the plain, honest and simple question : The law which Jesus Christ as God gave to man through Moses , Do we obey it or not ?. If the answer is No!. Then what is the alternative. By what rules do we live?. Where do the boundaries lie. It is impossible to live without law. You can't even play a game without rules . Anarchy is a myth and an impossibility. It is silly to say 'live by the law of love because that would need reams of explanation which would , of necessity involve rules and regulations. The foundation of the divine law is in two parts . Love God and love your neighbour. It reminds me of the binary system on which all computers depend.0 and 1 . It is that simple and yet it leads to infinite complexity. My understanding of this question will most certainly have a profound effect on my eternal destiny.
For my own part I am fully convinced that I am obliged to live by the divine law . I am ready to be persuaded differently if anyone can show me by writ or logic.
Alec

Hi Alec,

The beauty of loving your neighbor as yourself, and doing unto others as you would have them do unto you is that it is all encompassing....everyone is your neighbor, and everyone knows how they want to be treated! That is why Jesus said upon that one commandment and loving God hung all the law and the prophets.
Matt.22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Rose

alec cotton
08-13-2010, 10:36 AM
Hello Rose
I was wishing for something better , although I wasn't hoping for it . It seems that it is too much to hope for. Your response is typical. : hopping and skipping round the periphery. Your fancy footwork is admirable With that degree of skill in dancing I am sure that you could have taught saint vitus. Was that a yes , a no , an if only or a maybe?. I had already addressed the commandment 'love your neighbour.' You stressed the great commandment whilst conveniently ignoring the words of the master who said : Whosoever breaks the least of these commandments and teaches men so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. I have so often heard it said that the love of God is unconditional. Here is a condition. He that hath my commandments and keeps them. He it is that loves me and he will be loved of my father. Again 'If you love me you will keep my commandments' Paul said circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing ,but the keeping of the law. ( is everything). The only law that they could possibly have been talking about is the Torah. If there is another law of God which I am unaware of ,I would like someone to tell me where to find it. I am not writing for the sake of argumen. This is not an exercise in preterism : something that might have happened in the past ,or futurism: something that could happen in the future. This is the here and now . What is expected or demanded of me today . How will it affect my health ,wealth and welfare. How will it impact the country which I live in and the world at large. Can we have some straight talk for a change. Can we call a spade a spade and not an agriculteral implement. If I couldn't let a bit of steam off now and again my boiler would burst.
Alec

Rose
08-13-2010, 01:33 PM
Hello Rose
I was wishing for something better , although I wasn't hoping for it . It seems that it is too much to hope for. Your response is typical. : hopping and skipping round the periphery. Your fancy footwork is admirable With that degree of skill in dancing I am sure that you could have taught saint vitus. Was that a yes , a no , an if only or a maybe?. I had already addressed the commandment 'love your neighbour.' You stressed the great commandment whilst conveniently ignoring the words of the master who said : Whosoever breaks the least of these commandments and teaches men so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. I have so often heard it said that the love of God is unconditional. Here is a condition. He that hath my commandments and keeps them. He it is that loves me and he will be loved of my father. Again 'If you love me you will keep my commandments' Paul said circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing ,but the keeping of the law. ( is everything). The only law that they could possibly have been talking about is the Torah. If there is another law of God which I am unaware of ,I would like someone to tell me where to find it. I am not writing for the sake of argumen. This is not an exercise in preterism : something that might have happened in the past ,or futurism: something that could happen in the future. This is the here and now . What is expected or demanded of me today . How will it affect my health ,wealth and welfare. How will it impact the country which I live in and the world at large. Can we have some straight talk for a change. Can we call a spade a spade and not an agriculteral implement. If I couldn't let a bit of steam off now and again my boiler would burst.
Alec

Yes Alec, we can call a spade a spade, so here goes. The Torah was given to the Jews under the Old Covenant system, it contained the laws of Moses....it was not given to the body of Christ which lives under the New Testament brought in by Jesus. Jesus fulfilled all the law, which is contained in loving your neighbor as yourself....that is the only commandment we are under.

The body of Christ has never been under the law of the Old Covenant and never will be....it is only people like yourself who choose to take the law that was never given to you and apply it to your life, thus putting yourself under bondage.


Rose

joel
08-13-2010, 05:55 PM
Rose,........we are not talking about.......law works that lead to righteousness.

We all believe in that......

What I hear Alec saying is......the righteousness of the law that follows after being justified................. is there no demands placed upon us?

He believes that there is.......and I tend to agree with him.

Do you say no?
Joel

Rose
08-13-2010, 07:28 PM
Rose,........we are not talking about.......law works that lead to righteousness.

We all believe in that......

What I hear Alec saying is......the righteousness of the law that follows after being justified................. is there no demands placed upon us?

He believes that there is.......and I tend to agree with him.

Do you say no?
Joel

Hi Joel,

Love is the only demand placed upon us as believers....

Rose

alec cotton
08-14-2010, 11:09 AM
Hi Joel,

Love is the only demand placed upon us as believers....

Rose
To say that love is the ONLY demand made of believers is a sermon from the synagogue of Satan . It is designed to emasculate the word of God. That statement is designed to create a dead end. In that case I refuse to turn away and go quietly This must be the end of this thread unless someone jumps in to freshen it up . I for one will hit the buffers with a bang. Not one of my assertions was addressed ,much less refuted. Love your neighbour is one of the ten commandments. It is the greatest. You ,Rose are teaching that the rest are to be discarded. That means that you will be called least in the kingdom of God. I pointed out that the ten commandments tell us what to do and the rest of the Torah tells us how to do it. You say : All you have to do is love your neighbour . Can you tell me how?. The answer is obviously no!. Allow me to offer a simple illustration. Supposing that I had never seen a computer in my life. Someone says to me , Send an e mail. My first question is :How?. I must be instructed before I can do. Jesus told the parable of the good Samaritan to show how it is done. You say 'all you have to do is love'. Wrong !. You must exercise judgement and measure mercy. If a mother through love indulges her daughter then her love is destroying that child . God says that if you do not chastise your son then you hate him . God says beat him with a big stick. You won't kill him but you will deliver his soul from hell. I can see your hackles rising. Before I am done your hair will stand on end. During my long life I have had a lot of pet dogs and cats. . When the time came and death was imminent and suffering obvious I would end the life out of love and compassion. In recent years there have been numerous cases where a mother could no longer bear to see the suffering of her child and ended the life of misery. . There have been Quite a few cases in the last year when a wife or husband could no longer bear to see the agony of the other and put an end to his/her life. This is done because of love . Do you condone or condemn such actions? . ( a futile question. It will be ignored). Under the law, If two men were fighting and the wife of one grabbed her husband's opponent by the balls to assist her husband then the penalty was that her hand be cut off. If a man fought with a woman and she miscarried as a result then he would be punished an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth wound for wound , stripe for stripe. . That was justice. Of course if the old testament is to be ignored as you say because it was only for the Jews then all that is meaningless. The trouble is that if the old testament is not embraced then there is no way to grasp the new. No law ,no sin,no cross , no sense. Jesus bore our guilt on the cross. He did not bear our accountability or our responsibility. Each one of us must give an account of the deeds done in the body whether good or evil. We are all responsible for our actions and for their outcome.
Nothing but love demanded? . Her is a demand : Strive to enter the strait gate for narrow is the way that leads to life. It is easy enough to be good when temptation is far removed.
Alec

Rose
08-14-2010, 07:32 PM
To say that love is the ONLY demand made of believers is a sermon from the synagogue of Satan . It is designed to emasculate the word of God. That statement is designed to create a dead end. In that case I refuse to turn away and go quietly This must be the end of this thread unless someone jumps in to freshen it up . I for one will hit the buffers with a bang. Not one of my assertions was addressed ,much less refuted. Love your neighbour is one of the ten commandments. It is the greatest. You ,Rose are teaching that the rest are to be discarded. That means that you will be called least in the kingdom of God. I pointed out that the ten commandments tell us what to do and the rest of the Torah tells us how to do it. You say : All you have to do is love your neighbour . Can you tell me how?. The answer is obviously no!. Allow me to offer a simple illustration. Supposing that I had never seen a computer in my life. Someone says to me , Send an e mail. My first question is :How?. I must be instructed before I can do. Jesus told the parable of the good Samaritan to show how it is done. You say 'all you have to do is love'. Wrong !. You must exercise judgement and measure mercy. If a mother through love indulges her daughter then her love is destroying that child . God says that if you do not chastise your son then you hate him . God says beat him with a big stick. You won't kill him but you will deliver his soul from hell. I can see your hackles rising. Before I am done your hair will stand on end. During my long life I have had a lot of pet dogs and cats. . When the time came and death was imminent and suffering obvious I would end the life out of love and compassion. In recent years there have been numerous cases where a mother could no longer bear to see the suffering of her child and ended the life of misery. . There have been Quite a few cases in the last year when a wife or husband could no longer bear to see the agony of the other and put an end to his/her life. This is done because of love . Do you condone or condemn such actions? . ( a futile question. It will be ignored). Under the law, If two men were fighting and the wife of one grabbed her husband's opponent by the balls to assist her husband then the penalty was that her hand be cut off. If a man fought with a woman and she miscarried as a result then he would be punished an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth wound for wound , stripe for stripe. . That was justice. Of course if the old testament is to be ignored as you say because it was only for the Jews then all that is meaningless. The trouble is that if the old testament is not embraced then there is no way to grasp the new. No law ,no sin,no cross , no sense. Jesus bore our guilt on the cross. He did not bear our accountability or our responsibility. Each one of us must give an account of the deeds done in the body whether good or evil. We are all responsible for our actions and for their outcome.
Nothing but love demanded? . Her is a demand : Strive to enter the strait gate for narrow is the way that leads to life. It is easy enough to be good when temptation is far removed.
Alec


Hey Alec, what part of Matt. 22 do you not understand? Nowhere have I said the law was discarded, but rather all the law and the prophets are contained in the law of love....those are the very words of Jesus, so if anyone is preaching in the synagogue of Satan it is you.
Matt. 22:39-40 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Do you not know why loving your neighbor as yourself fulfills all the law? It is because you treat others with respect as you yourself wish to be treated, so you do not do anything to another that you don't want done to you.

Rose

Richard Amiel McGough
08-14-2010, 08:00 PM
To say that love is the ONLY demand made of believers is a sermon from the synagogue of Satan . It is designed to emasculate the word of God.

Am I wrong to side with Paul on this point?

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. 11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
If love FULFILLS the law, the what else do I need but love? What can the law add to love?

Now think carefully - we know the world is FULL of horrible people imposing their wicked self-righteous "Bible law" upon others without any FAITH, HOPE, or LOVE at all!!!! The LAW KILLS - I tell ya man, the LAW KILLS ya DEAD!!!

So I think I'll go with Love.

All the very best,

Richard

joel
08-15-2010, 03:58 AM
Why can't you both be right? ......when you blend the two together?

Loving your neighbor, according to the verse, is fulfilling the "do nots" of the law.........not just fulfilling the "dos".

Do not commit adultery against your neighbor,
Do not murder your neighbor,
Do not steal from your neighbor,
Do not covet what is your neighbor's.........

in keeping the "do nots"....you are loving your neighbor as yourself.....

You don't commit adultery with yourself,
you don't murder yourself,
you don't steal from yourself,
you don't covet your own stuff of yourself.....

Love, as expressed to the one near, the neighbor, is primarily "to not act evil towards them" (Romans 13:10)....this, then, is the "filling up", the pleroma, of the Law.....The love.

So.....Alec is correct.
and,...Richard and Rose are correct.

Congratulations,
you may now hug your brother......or......if you prefer.....give him a holy kiss.

Joel

Bob May
08-15-2010, 07:26 PM
To say that love is the ONLY demand made of believers is a sermon from the synagogue of Satan . It is designed to emasculate the word of God. That statement is designed to create a dead end. In that case I refuse to turn away and go quietly This must be the end of this thread unless someone jumps in to freshen it up . Alec

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

To add works to the New Covenant is an attempt to emasculate the New Covenant. And water down the blood.

If we believe everything falls into place eventually.
If we love the same thing happens.

Problem is that both believing and loving are spiritual gifts. If we are not under the New Covenant we cannot do either because we do not have the Spirit.

And if we add laws to the New Covenant we err.

Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Ga 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Ga 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

I do not see "falling from grace" as a permanent condition.
But something we have to check ourselves on from time to time.
We all tend to come under the works mentality and must correct ourselves.

I see the ten commandments as good advice. But if I see it as if my connection with God is threatened because I can't live up to it (or by living up to any of the sermon on the mount teachings) then I am looking at it wrong.

Just my take,
Bob