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shalag
08-15-2007, 01:50 PM
This is not meant to be an affront to the Catholic Church as a whole, so please do not read it as such. It is an unfortunate happening.

Dutch bishop: Call God ‘Allah’ ease relations
Roman Catholic leader stokes already heated debate on religion


AMSTERDAM - A Roman Catholic Bishop in the Netherlands has proposed people of all faiths refer to God as Allah to foster understanding, stoking an already heated debate on religious tolerance in a country with one million Muslims.

Bishop Tiny Muskens, from the southern diocese of Breda, told Dutch television on Monday that God did not mind what he was named and that in Indonesia, where Muskens spent eight years, priests used the word "Allah" while celebrating Mass.

"Allah is a very beautiful word for God. Shouldn't we all say that from now on we will name God Allah? ... What does God care what we call him? It is our problem."
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A survey in the Netherlands' biggest-selling newspaper De Telegraaf on Wednesday found 92 percent of the more than 4,000 people polled disagreed with the bishop's view, which also drew ridicule.

"Sure. Lets call God Allah. Lets then call a church a mosque and pray five times a day. Ramadan sounds like fun," Welmoet Koppenhol wrote in a letter to the newspaper.

Gerrit de Fijter, chairman of the Protestant Church in the Netherlands, told the paper he welcomed any attempt to "create more dialogue", but added: "Calling God 'Allah' does no justice to Western identity. I see no benefit in it."

A spokesman from the union of Moroccan mosques in Amsterdam said Muslims had not asked for such a gesture.

Religious tensions on the rise
Signs of tension had already surfaced in the last two weeks after the head of a committee for former Muslims was attacked and populist anti-immigration politician Geert Wilders called for the Koran to be banned.

Bishop Muskens, who will shortly retire, has raised eyebrows in the past with suggestions that those who are hungry may steal bread and that condoms should be permissible in the fight against HIV and AIDS.

Some Dutch Muslims welcomed his comments as a valuable gesture of support coming just days after Wilders branded the Quran a "fascist book" in the vein of Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf" which legitimizes violence.

Wilders, whose new party won nine seats out of the 150 in parliament in last November's elections, is well known for his firebrand remarks on Islam.

He said an attack by two Moroccans and a Somali on the head of a Dutch group for "ex-Muslims" had spurred him to write.

Issues of immigration and integration had faded from the Dutch political agenda over the last year, after a period of unprecedented social tension sparked by the 2004 murder of Theo Van Gogh, a filmmaker critical of Islam, by a Muslim militant.

Richard Amiel McGough
08-15-2007, 03:54 PM
This is not meant to be an affront to the Catholic Church as a whole, so please do not read it as such. It is an unfortunate happening.

Dutch bishop: Call God ‘Allah’ ease relations
Roman Catholic leader stokes already heated debate on religion


AMSTERDAM - A Roman Catholic Bishop in the Netherlands has proposed people of all faiths refer to God as Allah to foster understanding, stoking an already heated debate on religious tolerance in a country with one million Muslims.

Bishop Tiny Muskens, from the southern diocese of Breda, told Dutch television on Monday that God did not mind what he was named and that in Indonesia, where Muskens spent eight years, priests used the word "Allah" while celebrating Mass.

"Allah is a very beautiful word for God. Shouldn't we all say that from now on we will name God Allah? ... What does God care what we call him? It is our problem."


Thanks Shalag! That is a much needed wakeup call. It shows the madness and the great deception that overcomes all who do not know God. The liberals are so freaking terrified by the Muslems that they appease them any which way they can. And then they attempt to justify it with their absurd pseudo-intellectual academic philosophies.

Of course, the Catholic church was being driven to accept Islam by the previous Pope who actually kissed the Koran despite the fact that it explicitly denies that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Here is the picture:

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images/055_popekissesKoran.jpg


http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A055rcKoran.htm

RAM

White
08-15-2007, 06:40 PM
Of course, the Catholic church was being driven to accept Islam by the previous Pope who actually kissed the Koran despite the fact that it explicitly denies that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Here is the picture:

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images/055_popekissesKoran.jpg


http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A055rcKoran.htm

Hi everybody,

The Catholic Church was "driven to accept the Koran" is an awfully strong statement, Richard. As a matter of fact, Pope Benedict XVI a few months ago got into big trouble because he called Islam a religion of violence which cannot be reconciled with JESUS CHRIST. I have a tape from the trip of Pope John Paul to the HOLY LAND and he expressly states in a speech where ARAFAT was present that "RELIGION AND VIOLENCE DON'T MIX".

Now I did look at the pictures on that sight - by it seems to be a very traditional catholic - who opposes embracing other religions EVEN out of respect - Like Judaism, Hinduism, Buddism, among others - Maybe a little paranoid in my opinion...

I don't particularly like the fact that Pope John Paul II "kissed" the Koran or that he is being blessed by some voodoo woman etc. however, we all have come in contact with people of other faiths. Some Mormon friend and 2 disciples of his used to come to my house to share their faith and then they insisted to say some prayers in my house. Out of respect I let them say their prayers biut I closed my ears and prayed against their intentions. Finally after I learned enough of their religion, and the LORD showed me that nothing is being gained by letting them into my house, I stopped all contact with them. Is it not interesting how everybody is so convinced "their" religion or "their" view of God is the only view.

I am Catholic and attend Mass daily for the simple reason to be able to pray for the Jews and Muslims acceptance of JESUS CHRIST - Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH - and guess what? My priests kisses the Bible too - and 3/4 of it is the OLD TESTAMENT - TANACH - revered by the Jews and by all who profess Christ as LORD & SAVIOR.

Again I am against the image it portrays which will undoubtedly be used to show that Catholics and Muslims pray to the same GOD, which is a lie from the pit of hell. There is a great abyss between the Koran and our Bible and Lazarus could not join Father Abraham because he is being tormented in hell for eternity . That is the real wake-up call - Let's learn what the WORD says.

When Pope John Paul II placed the note expressing our sorrow over the persecution of our Jewish Brethren into the Wailing Wall, it was the right thing to do and showed our "solidarity" with the Jewish People who gave us the OLD and ALL but one book of the NEW Testament. Is anything to hard for ME, says the LORD? Can HE then not open the eyes of the Jews and of the Muslims to HIMSELF as LORD & SAVIOR. Instead we should learn more about what the Bible says, so we can be witnesses to the TRUTH who is in Jesus CHRIST who is THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE/LIGHT and share freely
the LOVE and MERCY that HE has bestowed on all of us. Let us not be afraid, but stand firm on the ROCK that is JESUS CHRIST, Our Lord and SAVIOR.

Pope Benedict XVI is not quite as "tolerant" it seems, but there is no doubt
pressure towards a "one world religion" - may we NEVER forsake our LORD and SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST.

Shalom to all in the Name of our LORD & SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST
Amen
White

Richard Amiel McGough
08-15-2007, 07:23 PM
Of course, the Catholic church was being driven to accept Islam by the previous Pope who actually kissed the Koran despite the fact that it explicitly denies that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Here is the picture:

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images/055_popekissesKoran.jpg


http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A055rcKoran.htm

Hi everybody,

The Catholic Church was "driven to accept the Koran" is an awfully strong statement, Richard. As a matter of fact, Pope Benedict XVI a few months ago got into big trouble because he called Islam a religion of violence which cannot be reconciled with JESUS CHRIST. I have a tape from the trip of Pope John Paul to the HOLY LAND and he expressly states in a speech where ARAFAT was present that "RELIGION AND VIOLENCE DON'T MIX".
Hi White, my friend!

Glad you stopped by to comment.

Yes, I am fully aware of the events with Benedict XVI. He is offering a welcome resistance to the policies of his predecessor. I wasn't talking about Benedict. I was talking about Pope John Paul II who really did kiss the Christ-denying Koran. :eek:


Now I did look at the pictures on that sight - by it seems to be a very traditional catholic - who opposes embracing other religions EVEN out of respect - Like Judaism, Hinduism, Buddism, among others - Maybe a little paranoid in my opinion...
I don't endorse everything on that site. I could have chosen a dozen others. But I chose that one because 1) it was one of the first ones I found and I was short on time, and 2) because it was Catholic, so folks wouldn't think I picked up a fake photo from some anti-catholic site.


I don't particularly like the fact that Pope John Paul II "kissed" the Koran or that he is being blessed by some voodoo woman etc. however, we all have come in contact with people of other faiths.
Sure, but coming in contact is not the same as "endorsing" or showing love and affection for a document that explicitly denies our Lord and Saviour, correct?


Some Mormon friend and 2 disciples of his used to come to my house to share their faith and then they insisted to say some prayers in my house. Out of respect I let them say their prayers biut I closed my ears and prayed against their intentions. Finally after I learned enough of their religion, and the LORD showed me that nothing is being gained by letting them into my house, I stopped all contact with them. Is it not interesting how everybody is so convinced "their" religion or "their" view of God is the only view.
I am glad God led you to the truth. But I can assure you absolutely that there is no reason you should have let them pray their prayers in your own house, especially if you had to "close your ears" to words being said in your own home. I would have recommended a polite but firm - "no thank you."


I am Catholic and attend Mass daily for the simple reason to be able to pray for the Jews and Muslims acceptance of JESUS CHRIST - Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH - and guess what? My priests kisses the Bible too - and 3/4 of it is the OLD TESTAMENT - TANACH - revered by the Jews and by all who profess Christ as LORD & SAVIOR.
I don't understand your point. The Tanach is God's Word and does not deny Christ, so what does that have to do with kissing the Koran?


Again I am against the image it portrays which will undoubtedly be used to show that Catholics and Muslims pray to the same GOD, which is a lie from the pit of hell.
I agree, in part. I do believe that the Allah of the Koran is definitely NOT the God of the Bible, but I think that many Muslims think of the true God when they say "Allah" and have not escaped yet from the tyranny of the religion that denies them freedom of belief. Its also mixed in with politics, because they don't have a separation of church and state.

And one important point - Arabic speaking Christians do use the term "Allah" to mean God. Even Arabic language NT use it, or so I've heard. This makes sense because the semitic root Eloah means God and is where we get the Hebrew Elohim and El (as in El Elyon, and the final element of Israel). But the problem is what meaning people pour into the word, and since it is the "personal name" of God in the Koran, we lose distinction between that and the True God YHVH if we use the word "Allah." That's my take on it.


When Pope John Paul II placed the note expressing our sorrow over the persecution of our Jewish Brethren into the Wailing Wall, it was the right thing to do and showed our "solidarity" with the Jewish People who gave us the OLD and ALL but one book of the NEW Testament.
I'm ambivalent about that. Sure, I think it is great that we express love for others and regret for what people have done, especially organizations that are supposed to represent Christ as the Catholic Church professes. But that is not the same as calling the Jews "elder brothers." That is a total error. The Jews need to repent of their denial of Christ. We do not help them see the error of their ways by honoring there lack of faith. The "Jews" who gave "us" the books of the New Testament were all CHRISTIANS. We are their spiritual children. We are the true seed of Abraham, just like the Bible says.


Is anything to hard for ME, says the LORD? Can HE then not open the eyes of the Jews and of the Muslims to HIMSELF as LORD & SAVIOR. Instead we should learn more about what the Bible says, so we can be witnesses to the TRUTH who is in Jesus CHRIST who is THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE/LIGHT and share freely
the LOVE and MERCY that HE has bestowed on all of us. Let us not be afraid, but stand firm on the ROCK that is JESUS CHRIST, Our Lord and SAVIOR.
Yes, that is the error the last Pope made. I still need to research it, but I have heard that his teachings are being interpreted to mean that Jews and Muslems don't need to convert to Christ. Whether that is true or not, I am not sure, but the fact that he kissed the Koran makes it seem plausible.


Pope Benedict XVI is not quite as "tolerant" it seems, but there is no doubt
pressure towards a "one world religion" - may we NEVER forsake our LORD and SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST.

Shalom to all in the Name of our LORD & SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST
Amen
White

We must always be vigilante to guard the faith.

Shalom to you too sister.

Richard

Searl Miller
09-05-2007, 12:56 PM
The Koran is concocted from taking Biblical sources and intermixing some local Arabic legends along with religiosity.

Somehow Mohammed read the Bible and Pseudepigrapha and failed to recognize any Love whatsoever but only vengeance and hate. Ironically, part of the Exordium is "Praise be to Allah the Merciful..."

In Mohammed's mind, women did not have souls and only men went to Paradise and even at that only about 1 out of every 100 Moslems would go to Paradise where they could spend Eternity indulging themselves in wanton promiscuity with 72 renewable virgins contrary to God's Commands.

Mohammed also said, "To every people God sends his prophets - To the Arab nation He has sent Mohammed." That statement shows that if indeed God had sent Mohammed at all, He sent him ONLY to the Arab people - not the entire world.

Shalom.
________
vaporizer (http://vaporizers.net/)

Apple Pie
09-11-2007, 06:08 PM
The Koran is concocted from taking Biblical sources and intermixing some local Arabic legends along with religiosity.

I agree with you that the Koran is a concoction of Biblical stories.

What most people are unaware of is that these Koranic versions of their Biblical counterparts, still transmit a decidedly Biblical message...up to, and including Jesus' crucifixion upon the cross, His death and resurrection, and that He is God Almighty.

Sadly, this original message has been lost in what is now known as Islam...

White
10-25-2007, 03:46 PM
Hey Richard -
this is worse than HAGEE !!! 1000x worse!!!

Calling God Allah - Who is calling God Allah ?

Another famous person acknowledging ALLAH as GOD - non other than
our "Christian" President - George W. Bush - Where is the outcry? Silence everywhere, but here is the proof :

go to :
"The Church in Apostasy by Chuck Baldwin, 10/16/2007 - link is under the next post


"Can a Christian Pray To Allah? by Chuck Baldwin, 10/9/2007 - link is under the next post

The most well known Christian in America is : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH
but is he a Christian, when he says in an interview with Elie Nakouzi "I believe that all the world, whether they be Muslim, Christian, or any other religion, prays to the same God." (Source: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE-ID=58026).

He is also the first President in US history to celebrate Ramadan in the White House and he has just celebrated the seventh Iftraar dinner (breaking the daily fast during the Islamic month of Ramadan. Can you believe it? For 7 years in a row the President has kept Ramadan or "Ramadan Mubarak" which means "blessed Ramadan". And we are wondering why our nation has been hammered with disaster after disaster after disaster... Any connection???

O my God - where does our Nation stand? O my God !
"For the sake of HIS sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us!"
God is sitting on HIS THRONE, tears are streaming down His Face for lack of knowledge MY PEOPLE will die, how come you Believers are so shy?

Shalom!
Monique

White
10-25-2007, 11:50 PM
Do Christians And Muslims Worship The Same God? - see previous post
by Chuck Baldwin
October 23, 2007






According to President George W. Bush, Christians and Muslims worship the same god. In fact, President Bush believes that EVERYONE worships the same god, whether they be Christians, Muslims, or people of any other religion. Don't take my word for it: Mr. Bush made these statements himself. I reported President Bush's remarks in this column just recently.

See http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2007/cbarchive_20071016.html

And http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2007/cbarchive_20071009.html

For the sake of those who missed it, ABC's Charles Gibson recently interviewed President George W. Bush. Here is a verbatim transcript from that interview:

Q. "Do we all worship the same God, Christian and Muslim?"
A. "I think we do. We have different routes of getting to the Almighty."

Q. "Do Christians and non-Christians and Muslims go to heaven in your mind?"
A. "Yes they do. We have different routes of getting there."

Then, just a few days ago, President Bush, in an interview with Al Arabiya television, said, "I believe in an almighty God, and I believe that all the world, whether they be Muslim, Christian, or any other religion, prays to the same God." In the same interview he said, "I believe there is a universal God. I believe the God that the Muslim prays to is the same God that I pray to. After all, we all came from Abraham. I believe in that universality."

Obviously, this is not the confession of a Christian. It is the confession of a universalist.

Bush's beliefs remind me of the book co-authored by Muhammad Ali, Thomas Houser, and Richard Dominick entitled Healing: A Journal of Tolerance and Understanding. In this book Muhammad Ali writes, "If you're a good Muslim, if you're a good Christian, if you're a good Jew: it doesn't matter what religion you are, if you're a good person, you'll receive God's blessing." (p. 3)

"The great monotheistic religions of the world all worship the same God. They just call him by different names." (p. 9)

"All people serve the same God. We just serve Him in different ways." (p. 32)

By definition, both President Bush and Muhammad Ali believe the same thing: they are both universalists.

Baker's Dictionary of Theology, page 539, defines Universalism this way: "Universalism is the doctrine of ultimate well-being of every person. The doctrine has a pagan and a Christian form. According to the former, all will ultimately be happy because all are, by nature, the creatures and children of God. The universalistic heresy (it is rejected by the general tradition of the church--Eastern, Roman and Protestant) in Christianity teaches that although all of the human creatures of God have fallen into sin and are lost, all will be saved through the universal redemption of Christ."

President Bush's infatuation with universalism is tied to his commitment to universal (or global) government. You see, Bush is part of an elitist cabal that is attempting to carve out an international New World Order. And in order for global (or even regional) government to take shape, there must be an acceptance of global religion. In other words, universalism is the religion of the New World Order, the United Nations, and all those who desire global government.

To anyone who understands the true message of Christ, however, the doctrine of universalism is anathema.

Every true believer in Christ understands Him to be the God-Man, the Creator-God become flesh (John 1:1-3, 14). We understand that Jesus is the only way to Heaven (John 14:6). We take Christ at His word, when He told us, "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30) We believe Him when He said, "[H]e that hath seen me hath seen the Father." (John 14:9) We understand that Jesus is the "fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Col. 2:9)

No real Christian could say that every religion worships the same God or that everyone is going to Heaven, regardless of who or what they worship. Only a universalist could make such a statement. I say it again, President Bush is a universalist.

Furthermore, because President Bush has convinced everyone that he is a Christian, his erroneous remarks portend much evil. Why? Because many professing Christians will take the word of an apostate President over the word of their own pastors or even the very Word of God. This is not to mention the damage he has done to the testimony of Christ in giving unbelievers a false sense of security in worshipping false gods and believing false doctrines.

Accordingly, I invite readers to view a Sunday address that I just recently delivered to the people of my church. The title of the address is, "Do Christians and Muslims Worship The Same God?" There is no charge to watch or download this video sermon. One may even download the message as an MP3 file for use in one's IPOD. In fact, I pray that God will give the message wide distribution. It just might be the most important message I have ever delivered. See the video sermon here: http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/sermonvideo.html

After listening to this message, a visitor told one of our ushers on the way out, "I came here believing in universalism. But now I am a Christian." I am afraid that there are many tens of thousands of people attending our churches all across America today who are not Christians, but have followed President Bush into the false religion of universalism. Please watch the video sermon.

Plus, if anyone would like to have DVD copies made of this video sermon, we might be able to make these available as well. If you are interested in having a DVD of this sermon, please write admin@chuckbaldwinlive.com

© Chuck Baldwin

This column is archived as http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2007/cbarchive_20071023.html


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

David
10-26-2007, 06:58 AM
This may sound terrible, but I don't blame President Bush on this one; I would say the same thing in his shoes. Think of how often he is irrationally accused of religious war, being guided by fundamentalism in foreign policy, creating animosity with the rest of the world, etc. By saying that there are different routes to the Almighty, he's being pragmatic. I'm not saying it's right, but this would be too difficult a temptation to resist.

Can you imagine how viciously he'd be attacked if he answered, "No Charles, I believe Jesus is the only way to God"?

Actually, I can't say I have the guts to stand by the Word on this one when I'm asked in my own meaningless life much less being the President of the United States with all that diplomatic responsibility. It's hard to get my heart around good non-Christians being condemned, so I have to go with my gut on this and say what Bush is saying regardless of how sinful it may be. Now observing Ramadan ... that's just goofy for him to do. :rolleyes:

Richard Amiel McGough
10-26-2007, 10:16 AM
This may sound terrible, but I don't blame President Bush on this one; I would say the same thing in his shoes. Think of how often he is irrationally accused of religious war, being guided by fundamentalism in foreign policy, creating animosity with the rest of the world, etc. By saying that there are different routes to the Almighty, he's being pragmatic. I'm not saying it's right, but this would be too difficult a temptation to resist.

Can you imagine how viciously he'd be attacked if he answered, "No Charles, I believe Jesus is the only way to God"?
Hi David,

You make some really good points. Can you imagine Bush trying to explain a theologically divisive point through the main stream media? It would blow up in his face. Anything he said could be twisted by his opponents and used against him. But there are ways to handle these kinds of questions without compromising the truth. For example, he could have flipped the tables, and said something like "You have touched upon a very controversial issue with no simple answer. Some Muslims and Christians believe they worship the same God, but others do not. I certainly would not want to insult those Muslims by saying that they worship the Christian God who is a Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."


Actually, I can't say I have the guts to stand by the Word on this one when I'm asked in my own meaningless life much less being the President of the United States with all that diplomatic responsibility. It's hard to get my heart around good non-Christians being condemned, so I have to go with my gut on this and say what Bush is saying regardless of how sinful it may be.
It is interesting that many Christians - especially those of the Calvinist persuasion - sidestep the whole issue by denying the premise. They begin by asserting that there is no such thing as a "good" person, so there is not issue with "good non-Christians being condemned." All have sinned and come short of the glory of God so all are condemned. The "Gospel" then is the proclamation to some of the condemned that the "Guvner" has, for no apparent reason other than His inscrutible Personal Pleasure, chosen to let a few of them out before He damns the rest to an everlasting conscious torment. That is the doctrine I find "hard to get my heart around." What if its ENTIRELY wrong? What if the Gospel really is Good News of Redemption available to all? What if Jesus really did overcome Sin and Death, not just for a few of the "lucky dead corpses" (which is how Calvinists present the doctrine of unconditional election) but for all God's creation? "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now" (Romans 8:22).


Now observing Ramadan ... that's just goofy for him to do. :rolleyes:
"Goofy" is a nice way to say "NUTS" "CRAZY" "INSANE" "WACKO" "IDIOTIC" "BRAINDEAD" ...

Richard

White
10-26-2007, 11:05 AM
Hi Richard,

Thanks - you made my point with the last line :
"NUTS" "CRAZY" "INSANE" "WACKO" "IDIOTIC" "BRAINDEAD"

How about: "aiding and abetting the enemy" "deceiving" ""endangering all of us by encouraging a religion that is out to dominate the world at ALL cost" -
etc. etc. etc. Maybe that is why the LORD gave me this poem on 9/21/1996:

GOD IS LOVE
God is sitting on HIS THRONE
Tears are streaming down HIS FACE
For lack of knowledge my people shall die
How come you believers are so shy?
I gave my BELOVED SON that YOU may live
Live a life of Peace and Happiness on Earth as in Heaven
Shout it to the world, let them see, let them hear
I am a GOD of LOVE -
I care - Your prayers I hear
Make JESUS CHRIST your way of life
He wants to hold you, love you, heal you
He is the ONE who came back and is now alive
When I'm your GOD your FIRST LOVE
Then you'll do My will
Then you'll know TRUE LOVE
Have Peace and Happiness ALL THE DAYS OF YOUR LIVES
as I love you always, even to the end of the times.
Amen.
inspired by God - by Monique

That says it all ! Let's pray for President Bush to have the courage to speak the truth in love the way Richard has it laid out - because when we confess our LORD and SAVIOR, we will receive HIS WISDOM and POWER and Strength to withstand the enemy. It is all in the tongue: the words we speak make us or break us. Let us be wise...

Shalom to Jerusalem and the Holy Land & all the world with Jesus in the heart of all people - SHalom
Monique