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Abigail
07-20-2007, 03:02 PM
I was just on Theology Web where a guy was asking why Jesus was so public about his miracles and teaching before the resurrection and yet after the rez was almost secretive appearing only to a select few.


My reply was as follows "If you read John's account of Jesus in the garden just before He is arrested He thanks His Father for those He has been given out of the world. And then He prays for those who will believe on Him through those ...so immediately here we have two separate sets of people ...those who believed because of the witness of Jesus of the Father (ie those who believed Jesus during His earthly ministry) and those who believe because of witness of believers of Jesus.
After the resurrection and before the ascension Jesus's minstry focus changed and His aim seems to be to reveal His resurrected self to those who are His ie those who knew Him and would recognise Him so joining the line from the person before the res to that after."

After posting I came to BW site to have a look what I could fine under '500' since that is the number Paul mentions as a baseline for one sighting. I was interested to see that 'The root of the word translated as "I have given" is: Nathan , to give = 500.

Does anyone have any comments. Does anyone see a connection or am I out on a limb here with my John interpretation

Richard Amiel McGough
07-21-2007, 01:59 PM
I was just on Theology Web where a guy was asking why Jesus was so public about his miracles and teaching before the resurrection and yet after the rez was almost secretive appearing only to a select few.

My reply was as follows "If you read John's account of Jesus in the garden just before He is arrested He thanks His Father for those He has been given out of the world. And then He prays for those who will believe on Him through those ...so immediately here we have two separate sets of people ...those who believed because of the witness of Jesus of the Father (ie those who believed Jesus during His earthly ministry) and those who believe because of witness of believers of Jesus.
After the resurrection and before the ascension Jesus's minstry focus changed and His aim seems to be to reveal His resurrected self to those who are His ie those who knew Him and would recognise Him so joining the line from the person before the res to that after."

After posting I came to BW site to have a look what I could fine under '500' since that is the number Paul mentions as a baseline for one sighting. I was interested to see that 'The root of the word translated as "I have given" is: Nathan , to give = 500.

Does anyone have any comments. Does anyone see a connection or am I out on a limb here with my John interpretation
Hi Abigail!

My first thought is that his question contains a false assumption. Jesus frequently instructed the people He healed not to make it known. As for the second point, I think it is because God wants us to come to Him through faith. Of course, the skeptic will say that's just a dodge we Christians use because we have no proof for our faith. At that point I answer that God has given all the proof anyone would ever need in the Bible, and that His Spirit bears witness in the heart of every person who truly wants to know the Truth. And so the atheist says that's just another cop out we use because we lack evidence. So then I show him the Wheel and he runs screaming down the hallway with his hands over his ears, crashing into walls because his eyes clenched tight, and babbling some inane absurdity about how Christians won't look at the facts or listen to reason ....

That's been my experience anyway.

As for the number 500, I'm not sure how that would relate here.

Richard

Abigail
07-21-2007, 03:41 PM
Hi Abigail!

My first thought is that his question contains a false assumption. Jesus frequently instructed the people He healed not to make it known. As for the second point, I think it is because God wants us to come to Him through faith. Of course, the skeptic will say that's just a dodge we Christians use because we have no proof for our faith. At that point I answer that God has given all the proof anyone would ever need in the Bible, and that His Spirit bears witness in the heart of every person who truly wants to know the Truth. And so the atheist says that's just another cop out we use because we lack evidence. So then I show him the Wheel and he runs screaming down the hallway with his hands over his ears, crashing into walls because his eyes clenched tight, and babbling some inane absurdity about how Christians won't look at the facts or listen to reason ....

That's been my experience anyway.

As for the number 500, I'm not sure how that would relate here.

Richard

Amen RAM, I believe what you say about the Bible, When I was searching and wondering about the existence of God etc, I remember turning to the Bible and over a period of some time becoming more and more convinced of its Divine origin. Incidently I noticed what I thought were correlations between the chapters of Isaiah and each book of the Bible and that is why when I saw some of your postings at TWeb I was very interested in BW.

The 500 came in because the guy went on about Paul mentioning that the risen Jesus was seen by more than 500 people at one time (1 Corinthians 15:6) and was saying he could find no mention of the 500 in the Gospels but assumed those were his followers. I tended to agree with him that they were probably followers though obviously this is just my opinion. I then was interested in why ever the number 500 was mentioned by Paul so zipped over here and thought searched on it. "The root of the word translated as "I have given" is: Nathan , to give = 500." I thought the link between 500 and 'I have given' was kindof quirky since in John 17 when Jesus prays to the Father, He talks about those the Father has given Him out of the world and says that He (Jesus), has given them the Father's Word. In fact that whole chapter has a lot of 'given' s and 'gavest' s and it is all about the people of God who were going to be His witnesses to the world ...just like the 500 (and more) who saw the resurrected Christ.

Anyway that's what I was wanting to get comment on... does anyone else see a link here or have I jumped a huge leap here

Searl Miller
09-08-2007, 07:53 PM
Abigail and Richard -

Just a comment: the principle was "first to the Jews, them the Gentiles" thus also first to those of the Old Covenant and then to those of the New covenant.

Jesus tried to keep His miracles from turning into some sort of side show. Besides for those preceding 3 years of His ministry, He also tried to be low key so as not to rile the authorities and be crucified before the proper time.

However; when He rode into Jerusalem amidst quite a bit of fan-fare, the time had come for His crucifixion. He pulled out all stops just that previous Monday by raising Lazarus from the dead in full view of most of the townspeople.

Remember that this was just over the hill from Jerusalem and the news of this event quickly spread into Jerusalem. So this prompted the religious PTB to try to figure out what do about Jesus because He had become too popular and was seen as a threat to them.

The reason He didn't make a public spectacle of His Resurrection was because this was the beginning of establishing faith as the prerequisite of being His follower.

Shalom.

joel
09-09-2007, 08:05 AM
After posting I came to BW site to have a look what I could fine under '500' since that is the number Paul mentions as a baseline for one sighting. I was interested to see that 'The root of the word translated as "I have given" is: Nathan , to give = 500.

Does anyone have any comments. Does anyone see a connection or am I out on a limb here with my John interpretation


Abagail, I do not believe you are "out on a limb" on this.

If you look at Isaiah 42:1, you see a very important use of the word "nathan";
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth, I have put (nathan) my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

In that verse, we have a connection between "servant" and "elect"....and, we have certain things that God does; "I uphold", "my soul delighteth", "I have put my spirit upon him". Of course we know that the chief reference here is to Jesus.

But, could it be that it also that refers to the elect.......who may be represented by the "500" that you identified?

Joel

joel
07-01-2010, 08:29 PM
What cannot be........a coach without team
Another cannot be.....a team without dream.

One dream........to compete,
Another............. to be replete,
with glory, and honor, not shame,
.....ascribing the praise to the coach's fair name,

One may say,
another may shout,
Our joint efforts we flout,
and furl,
and loudly exclaim,
but.....in the end,
its all in his name.

For after all,
it's apparent to me,
it's not our record,
or history,
but his alone,
our victory,
you see.
it is his crown,
his legacy.

And so it is with you,
and with us
He Our Jesus,
victorious.

The author,
and finisher of faith,
the Alpha and Omega,
the fullness of space,
and of heigth,
and of grace,
the fullness of all, in time and in space,

the One Who proclaims
the exellence of His Name
the all in all,
the Father, without name,
only Abba
our constant refrain.
Our closest resource
our most able One
Who makes the same
to be like Him, in image and in name,

Jesus, the all in all
the Master of the Name
we cannot add more
we cannot ,.......explain
"Not I, but Christ."
Adam's final refrain.

Joel

Bob May
09-10-2010, 06:39 PM
I was just on Theology Web where a guy was asking why Jesus was so public about his miracles and teaching before the resurrection and yet after the rez was almost secretive appearing only to a select few.


My reply was as follows "If you read John's account of Jesus in the garden just before He is arrested He thanks His Father for those He has been given out of the world. And then He prays for those who will believe on Him through those ...so immediately here we have two separate sets of people ...those who believed because of the witness of Jesus of the Father (ie those who believed Jesus during His earthly ministry) and those who believe because of witness of believers of Jesus.
After the resurrection and before the ascension Jesus's minstry focus changed and His aim seems to be to reveal His resurrected self to those who are His ie those who knew Him and would recognise Him so joining the line from the person before the res to that after."

After posting I came to BW site to have a look what I could fine under '500' since that is the number Paul mentions as a baseline for one sighting. I was interested to see that 'The root of the word translated as "I have given" is: Nathan , to give = 500.

Does anyone have any comments. Does anyone see a connection or am I out on a limb here with my John interpretation

Hi Abigail,
Good find. I believe there are many connections here.
5 is the number for the letter Hey. It means Window which is something we see through. Or "Behold" which is a "command" to see something.

So 2:9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, showing himself through the lattice.

So we see here Jesus showing himself to the bride (which is us).

Ge 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

This phrase "behold a ladder set up.." adds up to 888 which is the number of Jesus name in Greek.
Now, keeping that in mind, we go to where Jesus meets Nathanael (which means gift of God)for the first time.

Joh 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. (just as Jacob was under a ladder)

Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Joh 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
Joh 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

So, here is a vision that was given to Jacob of a tree or ladder that stretched from heaven to earth that added up to 888,=the name of Jesus. Then Jesus meeting a man that he saw under a tree, the man believes and so, in effect, proves that he is a son of Jacob/Israel and so an "heir." Jesus then refers back to "Jacob's ladder" vision and promises Nathanael that he will also see this which is a vision of Jesus. Making Jesus both ladder and Tree of Life.

Nathanael believed and Then was promised this inheritance/gift/vision. It was not a doubting Thomas type of thing. In other words show me first and THEN I'll believe.

Jesus was pointing back to the Jacob/Israel vision when he met Nathanael for a reason. The story of that vision in Genesis was pointing forward to Jesus in the same way.

Jesus stands at the door and knocks.

He also looks through a window and shows himself.

He opens eyes and heals the sick and opens ears all the time.

In fact when John asked for a sign to know whether or not Jesus was he One which was to come, Jesus' answer was not just yes.

Mt 11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
Mt 11:3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
Mt 11:4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and show John again those things which ye do hear and see:
Mt 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
Mt 11:6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

It seems to me that there was a whole lot of things going on in Jesus and the apostle's day that were "out there in front of eveyone." But that was because it was being announced to the world as a whole and would be recorded in what we call the New Testament for all the coming generations.
Those things are still happening to individuals.

Now we are the dead coming to life and we are the blind recieving sight and we also are the deaf hearing. And it goes beyond mere allegory.

There are many more connections if we look at the story of Benjamin and Joseph in Genesis and compare it with Paul in the New Testament. Benjamin never saw his brother Joseph until the reunion (after he was supposedly dead and was buried) at which time Joseph said to him "God be Gracious to you..." and gave him 5 times the mess of his brothers.
Paul as an apostle "born out of time" never saw Jesus until after he was dead and buried and was of the tribe of Benjamin.

I'm sure you'll find much more by looking with these things in mind.

By the way, with these things in mind, at the reunion of Joseph and his brothers it brought to pass the vision/prophecy
that Joseph had of the sun and moon and stars bowing down and doing obeisance to him.

Where was the moon=Rachel?

Also I think the hundred in the 500 relates to spiritual experiences. I havn't done extensive research on it but it would fit with the parable of the talents where some brought forth 30, some 60 and some 100 fold. The 5 is still all that that implies. Grace, gift, inheritance, gifts of the Spirit.

Bob

Bob May
09-11-2010, 08:50 AM
Hi Abigail!

My first thought is that his question contains a false assumption. Jesus frequently instructed the people He healed not to make it known. As for the second point, I think it is because God wants us to come to Him through faith. Of course, the skeptic will say that's just a dodge we Christians use because we have no proof for our faith. At that point I answer that God has given all the proof anyone would ever need in the Bible, and that His Spirit bears witness in the heart of every person who truly wants to know the Truth. And so the atheist says that's just another cop out we use because we lack evidence. So then I show him the Wheel and he runs screaming down the hallway with his hands over his ears, crashing into walls because his eyes clenched tight, and babbling some inane absurdity about how Christians won't look at the facts or listen to reason ....

That's been my experience anyway.

As for the number 500, I'm not sure how that would relate here.

Richard

Hi Richard,

Whether Abigail's classmate started with a false assumption or not she has recognized an important distinction. Those who Jesus found while still in the flesh and those (including us) afterwards.

"...those who believed because of the witness of Jesus of the Father (ie those who believed Jesus during His earthly ministry) and those who believe because of witness of believers of Jesus."

Paul, as an apostle "born out of time" believed because of Jesus' words. So do we. Paul also had many spiritual gifts and had visions and revelations.

Here is an interesting parallel in Genesis that appears to tie the principles demonstrated in the Bible Wheel to this discussion.

Ge 45:21 And the children of Israel did so: and Joseph gave them wagons, according to the commandment of Pharaoh, and gave them provision for the way.

Ge 45:22 To all of them he gave each man changes of raiment; but to Benjamin he gave three hundred pieces of silver,(spiritual gifts?) and five changes of raiment.(spiritual sight?)

Ge 45:23 And to his father he sent after this manner; ten asses laden with the good things of Egypt, and ten she asses laden with corn and bread and meat for his father by the way.


Ge 45:25 And they went up out of Egypt, and came into the land of Canaan unto Jacob their father,

Ge 45:26 And told him, saying, Joseph is yet alive, and he is governor over all the land of Egypt. And Jacob's heart fainted, for he believed them not.

Ge 45:27 And they told him all the words of Joseph, which he had said unto them: and when he saw the wagons which Joseph had sent to carry him, the spirit of Jacob their father revived:

Ge 45:28 And Israel said, It is enough; Joseph my son is yet alive: I will go and see him before I die.


It is not until the sons of Jacob tell him "all the words of Joseph" and he sees the "wagons" that he believes.
The word wagons is chariots (which is basically a platform with wheels) and can also mean an upper millstone which is nothing more than a stone wheel laid on it's side.
It is a spiritual experience for Jacob because immediately his "spirit revives" and his name changes back to Israel.

It is only the words of Joseph (as a type of Jesus) and seeing the wagons that causes him to believe.
He would not believe his sons. (until they told him the words of Joseph)

Seeing the wagons implies the sheer volume and interconnectedness of the Word of God. (Gifts from Joseph/Jesus)

I knew that the wagons in the story were important. Now it makes more sense.

When a person sees this it is undeniable.
That is, of course, unless the person puts their hands over their ears.

Bob

Beck
09-11-2010, 01:55 PM
I was just on Theology Web where a guy was asking why Jesus was so public about his miracles and teaching before the resurrection and yet after the rez was almost secretive appearing only to a select few.


My reply was as follows "If you read John's account of Jesus in the garden just before He is arrested He thanks His Father for those He has been given out of the world. And then He prays for those who will believe on Him through those ...so immediately here we have two separate sets of people ...those who believed because of the witness of Jesus of the Father (ie those who believed Jesus during His earthly ministry) and those who believe because of witness of believers of Jesus.
After the resurrection and before the ascension Jesus's minstry focus changed and His aim seems to be to reveal His resurrected self to those who are His ie those who knew Him and would recognise Him so joining the line from the person before the res to that after."

After posting I came to BW site to have a look what I could fine under '500' since that is the number Paul mentions as a baseline for one sighting. I was interested to see that 'The root of the word translated as "I have given" is: Nathan , to give = 500.

Does anyone have any comments. Does anyone see a connection or am I out on a limb here with my John interpretation

My thought would be that Jesus told them whom he had proformed the miracle to not go and tell. In other words he didn't want the time to come of his death before it was time. Another time he simple hid from the angry people. Even though he was open with his miracles and teachings many missunderstood him. Only those that where given sight to see would understand who he was.

Now even his disciples may not really understood who Jesus was until at the end, when Jesus was transfigured before them, letting them know that he was the Messiah that which was to come, but letting them also know that this Messiah would be killed for their sake, and they if willing to follow him must also be willing to take up their own cross of death.

This to me it the primary reason why Jesus showed himself to his disciples, to fulfill that which he spoken unto them that he would not eat nor drink until he would come again and sit at the table, which was only dates later.

So I'm not inclined to think that Jesus resurrection was secretive but more selective. My other thought is Jesus said that if one came out of the grave they would still not believe. Where is that passage anyway?