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Geoffrey
07-19-2007, 02:32 PM
Richard, I saw in another thread that you wanted to start a thread on this.


Ezekiel 28:18-19Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. (19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

These verses speak of satan cast into the lake of fire and says that he will cease to exist: "never shalt thou be anymore."

Geoffrey

Richard Amiel McGough
07-19-2007, 03:08 PM
Richard, I saw in another thread that you wanted to start a thread on this.


Ezekiel 28:18-19Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. (19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

These verses speak of satan cast into the lake of fire and says that he will cease to exist: "never shalt thou be anymore."

Geoffrey
Well now! Thanks Geoffrey! I did want to discuss this.

I have never settled on the question of annihilationism, but I am pretty sure it is the view most consistent with the overall teaching of Scripture. I have been wrestling with it for a very long time. Most of my books on the topic are marked on ever page, and most of the marks are sharp criticisms of the sloppy exegesis of the proponents of "eternal conscious torment" in hell.

To begin with, I think the "fire" is either purgative (drives the soul to repentance) or devouring (leaving nothing but ash). It seems the annihilation is most consistent with the many verses that speak of the wicked ceasing to exist, annihilated by the fire that consumes:


Psalm 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

Psalm 15:13 Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be: and let them know that God ruleth in Jacob unto the ends of the earth.

Psalm 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.



Malachi 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. I think one reason I have hesitated on this is because of the strong-arm tactics used by teachers who could not support their arguments with Scripture, so they attack anyone who teaches annihilationism as a heretic.

But we'll see ... maybe I have missed something important, and someone on the forum will show me how the Bible really does teach that God casts sinners into a hell of eternal conscious torment.

Richard

CAPS
08-26-2007, 11:19 PM
In order to come to a correct conclusion regarding the fate of the wicked.....certain things in the overall plan of God must be understood. One is a proper understanding of the Greek word ''aionos''....translated ''forever''. This word actually means a limited period of time.......an ''age''.

Some of the verses previously quoted in above posts would seem to indicate that the wicked ''will be no more'' etc. However, some of this language is metaphor and is looking at matters from an ''earth'' perspective. I do not believe those verses should be used as proof texts for annihilationism.

One thing to consider is this. The Last Enemy that shall be destroyed is DEATH. So if anyone is to be in the condition called ''death'' then that would contradict this fact. If some are going to be ''forever dead'' then How does that fit in with ''death being destroyed''? Something to think about.

If some are interested, I can comment further. I recommend a book called The Restitution of All Things by Andrew Jukes......it is the best I have ever read on this subject.

CAPS

Richard Amiel McGough
08-27-2007, 11:41 AM
In order to come to a correct conclusion regarding the fate of the wicked.....certain things in the overall plan of God must be understood. One is a proper understanding of the Greek word ''aionos''....translated ''forever''. This word actually means a limited period of time.......an ''age''.
Hey there Caps!

I do believe this is my first post to you, so let me take this opportunity to say "Welcome to our forum!"

:welcome:

I agree with your comment about "aionios" - we really need to do a word study on that before we come to any conclusions about the eternal fate of the wicked.


Some of the verses previously quoted in above posts would seem to indicate that the wicked ''will be no more'' etc. However, some of this language is metaphor and is looking at matters from an ''earth'' perspective. I do not believe those verses should be used as proof texts for annihilationism.
Yes, all verses must be evaluated in light of the entire Bible.


One thing to consider is this. The Last Enemy that shall be destroyed is DEATH. So if anyone is to be in the condition called ''death'' then that would contradict this fact. If some are going to be ''forever dead'' then How does that fit in with ''death being destroyed''? Something to think about.
Yes, that is similar to my reason for rejecting the Doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment. Since God will be "all in all" where will the damned "be." That's part of the reason I think the only Biblical solution is either annihilationism or Christian universalism. My brother in law thinks that God would be more glorified if He succeeded in redeeming all, but I wonder if He may need to annihilate the unrepentant. But he thinks God is able to bring all to repentance, and since that is God's stated will, he thinks there is a case to be built. But something in me still hesitates. But it sure would be a nice change to not be "greater than God" in that he doesn't hate people that he commands me to love.


If some are interested, I can comment further. I recommend a book called The Restitution of All Things by Andrew Jukes......it is the best I have ever read on this subject.

CAPS

Yes, I am very interested. Please say more. As for the book ... thanks for tip. I'll look into it.

Richard

joel
08-28-2007, 05:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAPS
If some are interested, I can comment further. I recommend a book called The Restitution of All Things by Andrew Jukes......it is the best I have ever read on this subject.

CAPS

Yes, I am very interested. Please say more. As for the book ... thanks for tip. I'll look into it.

Richard


The book, The Restitution of All Things, by Andrew Jukes, is one of many that he wrote which speaks of the riches of typology in the scripture. I would also recommend Types in Genesis which speaks of the types of the people who are listed in Genesis as they apply to the outward church, and, how they apply to the life of faith in the believer.

Insight into the spiritual meaning of types is very helpful to us as we study scripture, particularly the letters to us from Paul, as he used many examples out of Genesis and other Old Testament writings in his teachings. Jukes was masterful at discussing this detail as he appeared not only versed in Hebrew, Greeek and Latin, but, also in the writings of the early church fathers to whom he refers to extensively in his writings.

Andrew Jukes, once a part of the Church of England, began to be an active participant of the Plymouth Brethren. His years of life were 1815-1901. Other books by him include; Four Views of Christ, The Names of God, The Law and the Offerings.

Joel

David
08-28-2007, 08:33 AM
Rev. 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Okay, I really want to believe hell is not eternal. But then how do we interpret this verse which conjures up more traditional images of eternal hell?

As for wanting to not be better than God ... like Job, we don't understand what God deals with, and it's very easy for us to feel good about ourselves for not wanting eternal hell since we aren't in God's position. But we can't say we would do it any differently in his position. So if we are to believe there is no eternal hell, I believe we most focus more on what the Scriptures say about hell than feelings about God's goodness.

Or else we risk being like the doe-eyed child who says, "If I become President I'll end poverty and cure diseases." :D

Richard Amiel McGough
08-28-2007, 10:01 AM
Okay, I really want to believe hell is not eternal. But then how do we interpret this verse which conjures up more traditional images of eternal hell?

As for wanting to not be better than God ... like Job, we don't understand what God deals with, and it's very easy for us to feel good about ourselves for not wanting eternal hell since we aren't in God's position. But we can't say we would do it any differently in his position. So if we are to believe there is no eternal hell, I believe we most focus more on what the Scriptures say about hell than feelings about God's goodness.

Or else we risk being like the doe-eyed child who says, "If I become President I'll end poverty and cure diseases." :D

Hi David,

I found Andrew Juke's Restitution of All Things on the tentmakers site:

http://www.tentmaker.org/restitutionindex.htm

I'll comment on it as I find time.

As for the interpretation of Rev 14:11 ... that certainly is a favorite amongst Eternal Conscious Tormentors, but we don't need to rush to an answer. On the contrary, every major doctrine has its "difficult" verses - Calvinism, Trinity, you name it - so we should be careful to tread slowly and carefully, fully honoring Scripture as God's Divine Revelation all along the way.

The first thing to note is where the verse is found. Any answer to the meaning of Rev 14:11 will, of course, depend on the interpretive scheme we have adopted for the whole book. It seems rather foolish to jump to the conclusion that this verse could be used as "proof" of anything before we understand the correct interpretation that God intended for the whole book that He inspired.

That said, I will note my first impression is that the New Heavens and Earth marks the beginning of an entirely new "aion of aions" from which every flaw, sin, death, pain, and sorrow of the old order of things has been annihilated. So the "smoke of their torment" that ascended into the old "aion of aions" will be annihilated along with everything else marred by wickedness, so our God will be the "all in all."

That's just one possibility ... I haven't tested it to see if it holds up.

I understand your caution about the doe-eyed child, but we must not take our mental weaknesses as an excuse for accepting monstrous falsehoods about the nature of God. The folks who demand that we deny our moral intuitions (created in the image of God) and subsume them under some humanly crafted philosophical interpretations, have made the same error as the doe-eyed child, only now the error is coupled with a monstrous intellectual pride that presumes to be able to declare such things as the Eternal Decrees of God.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
08-28-2007, 10:23 AM
If some are interested, I can comment further. I recommend a book called The Restitution of All Things by Andrew Jukes......it is the best I have ever read on this subject.

CAPS
I'm just twenty minutes reading into Juke's book, and I can say that it is resplendent with intelligence and radiant with respect, love, and knowledge of the Bible as God's Word. It is a must read!

http://www.tentmaker.org/restitutionindex.htm

Richard

joel
08-28-2007, 10:38 AM
Okay, I really want to believe hell is not eternal. But then how do we interpret this verse which conjures up more traditional images of eternal hell?

As for wanting to not be better than God ... like Job, we don't understand what God deals with, and it's very easy for us to feel good about ourselves for not wanting eternal hell since we aren't in God's position. But we can't say we would do it any differently in his position. So if we are to believe there is no eternal hell, I believe we most focus more on what the Scriptures say about hell than feelings about God's goodness.

Or else we risk being like the doe-eyed child who says, "If I become President I'll end poverty and cure diseases." :D

David,

As CAPS pointed out in his previous post (#3), the Greek word "aionos" which is used in the verse where it reads, "forever and ever", means "for the age". In this case, it is both interesting and instructive that if we use the closest English equivalent to "aionos" which is "eon", we would show it as "for the eon of the eons".

If an "aionos" = an "eon", it is a definitive period with a beginning, and an ending. If, as Richard suggests, we do a comprehensive word study, this word may very well reveal that it is not appropriate to show it as "eternal", or, "everlasting", or "forever and ever".
Those expressions convey the obvious meaning of continuing on into time without cessation, whereas, "eon" does not have that meaning, and, conveys a sense of ending.

In God's "progressive revelation", it may be that He uses the "eons", in succession, to bring about His purpose, which, when fulfilled, will end the current series of eons.

There have been some interesting analogies made that compare the typology of the tablernacle in the wilderness with the outworking of the eons...moving from outside the camp, into the enclosure, into the tent, and finally, terminating in the "holy of holies" which may be representative of the "eon of the eons".....each successive step being representative of an eon during which God has revealed Himself.

Joel

Richard Amiel McGough
08-28-2007, 10:54 AM
David,

As CAPS pointed out in his previous post (#3), the Greek word "aionos" which is used in the verse where it reads, "forever and ever", means "for the age". In this case, it is both interesting and instructive that if we use the closest English equivalent to "aionos" which is "eon", we would show it as "for the eon of the eons".

If an "aionos" = an "eon", it is a definitive period with a beginning, and an ending. If, as Richard suggests, we do a comprehensive word study, this word may very well reveal that it is not appropriate to show it as "eternal", or, "everlasting", or "forever and ever".
Those expressions convey the obvious meaning of continuing on into time without cessation, whereas, "eon" does not have that meaning, and, conveys a sense of ending.

In God's "progressive revelation", it may be that He uses the "eons", in succession, to bring about His purpose, which, when fulfilled, will end the current series of eons.

There have been some interesting analogies made that compare the typology of the tablernacle in the wilderness with the outworking of the eons...moving from outside the camp, into the enclosure, into the tent, and finally, terminating in the "holy of holies" which may be representative of the "eon of the eons".....each successive step being representative of an eon during which God has revealed Himself.

Joel

Hey Joel and David,

I think the Bible definitely speaks of a progression of eons, because it speaks of the events of the first century as the "end of the eon(s)." And in Jewish tradition, there are two "olams" - the one they lived in, and the "Olam HaBa" = "the World to Come" = the Messianic age. But I think we are in that Messianic age now, so there will yet be a time when this age, and the whole system of ages of which is it a part, will come to an end.

So the "olam of olams" or the "aion of aions" looks like a description of a group of progressive aions. It seems likely that that whole system of aions will be renewed/restored when the old heavens and earth of "burned up with fervent heat" (annihilated?) and the New Heavens and New Earth manifest.

Richard

David
08-28-2007, 11:12 AM
Thanks everyone for an interesting and hopeful thread. :) I'm going to try reading the tentmaker site when I get a chance. So the word for eons is being translated to forever. It sure seems imprecise at a glance. I sure hope this is going where I think it is.

shalag
08-28-2007, 04:27 PM
So would the Messianic age include not only first coming - but his second also? I thought the Messianic age is when Christ was supposed to rule and reign for 1000 years. And if Christ's second coming is the 'third eon' - that would be an interesting concept as the ark had three stories, the temple had three stories and Eutychus fell out the third story window. The threes thing.

I know the Bible begins with the generations of Adam. And then when you read the NT it starts out with "And this is the generation (geneaology) of Jesus Christ." Making is sound like the 'second' round of things.

Anymore I can't even remember what I 'used to think'! Now I just don't know.

Richard Amiel McGough
08-28-2007, 05:59 PM
So would the Messianic age include not only first coming - but his second also? I thought the Messianic age is when Christ was supposed to rule and reign for 1000 years. And if Christ's second coming is the 'third eon' - that would be an interesting concept as the ark had three stories, the temple had three stories and Eutychus fell out the third story window. The threes thing.

Hi shalag,

Good question. Off the top of my head, I would say that there are at least two meanings to "Messianic Age." Since Jews didn't know about the two comings of Messiah, they spoke of "this world" and "the world to come" in which Messiah would rule and which they thought would be like what Christians call the "Millennium" (Universal Peace, Prosperity, etc.). That's one reason they say Jesus was not the Messiah, because He didn't accomplish those things at His first coming. But since we know Christ was Messiah, we are living in the "Messianic Age" - that is, the age that began when the Jewish Age ended and will continue until the "Consummation" when the New Heaven and New Earth are manifested at the Second Coming. In this view, there is no literal "Millennium." Christ rules in the hearts of men for a "thousand years" which is a Biblical symbol of "a long time."

So we have three ages:

1) the Jewish age,
2) the Christian age,
3) the New Heaven and Earth Age

Or this could be extended to various dispensations:

1) the Innocence age (Eden),
2) the Man age (up to the Flood)
3) the Jewish age (from Abraham to Christ),
4) the Christian age (from the First to the Second Coming),
5) the New Aion Age (the Eternal (Aionic) Age).

If you are amillennialist, then the Christian Age is the Millennium. If, on the other hand, you believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, then we would have a possible division like this:

1) the Innocence age (Eden),
2) the Man age (up to the Flood)
3) the Jewish age (from Abraham to Christ),
4) the Christian age (from the First Coming to Millennium),
5) the Millennium
6) the New Aion Age (the Eternal (Aionic) Age).

Of course, none of these lists have the Perfect Number Seven so they will need to massaged and manipulated until we arrive at that magic number. Click here (http://www.biblelife.org/dispensations.htm) for a typical example of the Seven Dispensations.

I know the Bible begins with the generations of Adam. And then when you read the NT it starts out with "And this is the generation (geneaology) of Jesus Christ." Making is sound like the 'second' round of things.
Yes indeed! Christ is the "Second Adam." The pattern you noted was intentional.


Anymore I can't even remember what I 'used to think'! Now I just don't know.

That's actually a very good condition to be in. You need to empty the cup of its old contents before you can fill it with the new.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
08-28-2007, 07:57 PM
Here is a link to the online version of Louis Abbott's classic study of the meaning of olam and aion called "An Analytic Study of Words (http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/abbott/abbot000.htm)."

Here's a snippet from his forward:


One key area various denominations are divided over, is the final destiny of the ungodly, the wicked, the unsaved, the unregenerated or however one wishes to phrase it. There are three views on this subject. Each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct.

Dr. C. Ryder Smith, a teacher of eschatology for twenty years, says in his book, The Bible Doctrine of the Hereafter (p. 258): "In an earlier chapter, it has been shown that the New Testament teaches everlasting punishment. On a review of the whole evidence, therefore, it follows that throughout that book there are two doctrines, which, to the human mind, are irreconcilable: The doctrine of universalism and the doctrine that there are those who will not be saved." The Scriptures do not teach two different destinies for mankind They only seem to do so because of mistranslations. The Scriptures are the inspired words of God and therefore cannot be contradictory.
RAM

joel
08-29-2007, 09:53 AM
Hi shalag,

Good question. Off the top of my head, I would say that there are at least two meanings to "Messianic Age." Since Jews didn't know about the two comings of Messiah, they spoke of "this world" and "the world to come" in which Messiah would rule and which they thought would be like what Christians call the "Millennium" (Universal Peace, Prosperity, etc.). That's one reason they say Jesus was not the Messiah, because He didn't accomplish those things at His first coming. But since we know Christ was Messiah, we are living in the "Messianic Age" - that is, the age that began when the Jewish Age ended and will continue until the "Consummation" when the New Heaven and New Earth are manifested at the Second Coming. In this view, there is no literal "Millennium." Christ rules in the hearts of men for a "thousand years" which is a Biblical symbol of "a long time."

So we have three ages:

1) the Jewish age,
2) the Christian age,
3) the New Heaven and Earth Age

Or this could be extended to various dispensations:

1) the Innocence age (Eden),
2) the Man age (up to the Flood)
3) the Jewish age (from Abraham to Christ),
4) the Christian age (from the First to the Second Coming),
5) the New Aion Age (the Eternal (Aionic) Age).

If you are amillennialist, then the Christian Age is the Millennium. If, on the other hand, you believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, then we would have a possible division like this:

1) the Innocence age (Eden),
2) the Man age (up to the Flood)
3) the Jewish age (from Abraham to Christ),
4) the Christian age (from the First Coming to Millennium),
5) the Millennium
6) the New Aion Age (the Eternal (Aionic) Age).

Of course, none of these lists have the Perfect Number Seven so they will need to massaged and manipulated until we arrive at that magic number. Click here (http://www.biblelife.org/dispensations.htm) for a typical example of the Seven Dispensations.

Yes indeed! Christ is the "Second Adam." The pattern you noted was intentional.


That's actually a very good condition to be in. You need to empty the cup of its old contents before you can fill it with the new.

Richard

Richard, I would suggest that we look at the two words; ages (aionos), and dispensation (oikonomia) as not being descriptive of the same thing.

An eon, or age (aionos) seems to be referring as a phase of time.

Whereas, a dispensation (oikonomia) seems to refer to a duty or responsibility within a period of time such as a "stewardship".

In other words, dispensations occur within the eons.

Also, there are things which have occurred "before" the eons.
There are things that have occurred, and will occur during the eons.
And, it appears that the current eons will terminate, followed by undescribed events that God has chosen not yet to reveal to us.

Joel

Geoffrey
08-29-2007, 10:05 AM
Hallo Joel,


Whereas, a dispensation (oikonomia) seems to refer to a duty or responsibility within a period of time such as a "stewardship".

In other words, dispensations occur within the eons.


Yes, that sounds good to me.:thumb: A dispensation of the Gospel would be a dealing out of a portion of the revelation of the Word and this dealing out would be valid for a certain eon.

Richard Amiel McGough
08-29-2007, 10:40 AM
Richard, I would suggest that we look at the two words; ages (aionos), and dispensation (oikonomia) as not being descriptive of the same thing.

An eon, or age (aionos) seems to be referring as a phase of time.

Whereas, a dispensation (oikonomia) seems to refer to a duty or responsibility within a period of time such as a "stewardship".

In other words, dispensations occur within the eons.
Good suggestion Joel. Thanks! It is important to note that the words have different connotations. But it seems to me that the oikonomia is the "dispensation" or "stewardship" that corresponds to the aion in which it is found. Is there something in the Bible that suggests more than one dispensation per aion?


Also, there are things which have occurred "before" the eons.

There are things that have occurred, and will occur during the eons.
And, it appears that the current eons will terminate, followed by undescribed events that God has chosen not yet to reveal to us.

Joel

I agree that there are things that happened before this set of aions (the current aion of aions) in which we currently live. And there will be things that happen after. I think an "aion" is probably a period of about 2200 years, since that is one cycle on the Bible Wheel, and it corresponds well with traditional Christian chronology. It also is curious that it corresponds almost exactly with one astrological age, which is about 2160 years, though I don't know much beyond that. Of course, Bullinger taught the Gospel in the Stars, so we shouldn't confuse the connection with pop (ungodly) astrology.

Richard

joel
08-29-2007, 10:45 AM
Hallo Joel,



Yes, that sounds good to me.:thumb: A dispensation of the Gospel would be a dealing out of a portion of the revelation of the Word and this dealing out would be valid for a certain eon.

Hallo, back to ya, Geoffrey,

Following are some uses of the word "oikonomia";

Luke 16:3 And the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my Lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.

I Corinthians 9:16, 17 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward:

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;

One particular verse has me a little confused (maybe Richard could shed some light).....
Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world (eons) hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

the above rendering was taken from the KJV where the word "fellowship" is taken correctly from "koinonia". However, in other versions, the word "koinonia" is replaced with "oikonomia" which we are discussing as meaning "dispensation", or "administration".

Joel

Richard Amiel McGough
08-29-2007, 10:45 AM
Hallo Joel,



Yes, that sounds good to me.:thumb: A dispensation of the Gospel would be a dealing out of a portion of the revelation of the Word and this dealing out would be valid for a certain eon.
Hi Geoffrey!

I'll ask you the same question I posed to Joel. It seems to me that there is probably one dispensation per aion. For example, the 2000 year aion from Abraham to Christ was the "Dispensation of Law" and the dispensation from Christ till His Second Coming is the "Dispensation of Grace." Is there something in the Bible that suggests we should subdivide the dispensations within these two great aions?

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
08-29-2007, 10:54 AM
One particular verse has me a little confused (maybe Richard could shed some light).....

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world (eons) hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

the above rendering was taken from the KJV where the word "fellowship" is taken correctly from "koinonia". However, in other versions, the word "koinonia" is replaced with "oikonomia" which we are discussing as meaning "dispensation", or "administration".

Joel

That's a "textual variation" Joel. The TR (Textus Receptus) is almost alone in its witness of the word "koinonia" here. Almost all other mss have oikonomia.

Richard

Geoffrey
08-29-2007, 11:04 AM
Hi Richard!


I'll ask you the same question I posed to Joel. It seems to me that there is probably one dispensation per aion. For example, the 2000 year aion from Abraham to Christ was the "Dispensation of Law" and the dispensation from Christ till His Second Coming is the "Dispensation of Grace." Is there something in the Bible that suggests we should subdivide the dispensations within these two great aions?
The seven churches in Revelation seems to be an indication of subdivision. I have read that the Dispensation of Law can also be divided into seven parts, but have not found any reference yet.

joel
08-29-2007, 11:33 AM
That's a "textual variation" Joel. The TR (Textus Receptus) is almost alone in its witness of the word "koinonia" here. Almost all other mss have oikonomia.

Richard


Thanks, Richard, I knew that you'd come through.

I also wanted to offer forth some verses that indicate some things that occurred before the eonian times began;

II Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

I Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

These verses show the word "aionos" as "world" which the KJV translators chose to use. However, "world" is commonly referring to the physical realm which would be applicable to the "kosmos". If, in attempting to be more correct as to the words used, we used "eon", referring to time, rather than "world" which refers to the physical realm, we learn that before the eons began, certain things occurred;

1.) His purpose and grace were given to us in Christ Jesus, before the "eons" began
2.) "eternal life" was promised before the "eons" began
3.) the hidden wisdom of the cross of Christ was ordained unto our glory before the "eons"

These scriptures speak of things which occurred before the eons began. That being the case, eonian cannot be the same as "eternal", or "eternity".

Joel

Richard Amiel McGough
08-29-2007, 01:00 PM
Hi Richard!


The seven churches in Revelation seems to be an indication of subdivision. I have read that the Dispensation of Law can also be divided into seven parts, but have not found any reference yet.
Hallo Geoffrey!

I do see a representation of the church age - the sequence of churches do have some significant correlations with history. But is there anything in them that suggests a progression of "dispensations?"

I don't see anything like that.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
08-29-2007, 01:13 PM
Thanks, Richard, I knew that you'd come through.

I also wanted to offer forth some verses that indicate some things that occurred before the eonian times began;

II Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

I Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

These verses show the word "aionos" as "world" which the KJV translators chose to use. However, "world" is commonly referring to the physical realm which would be applicable to the "kosmos". If, in attempting to be more correct as to the words used, we used "eon", referring to time, rather than "world" which refers to the physical realm, we learn that before the eons began, certain things occurred;

1.) His purpose and grace were given to us in Christ Jesus, before the "eons" began
2.) "eternal life" was promised before the "eons" began
3.) the hidden wisdom of the cross of Christ was ordained unto our glory before the "eons"

These scriptures speak of things which occurred before the eons began. That being the case, eonian cannot be the same as "eternal", or "eternity".

Joel

Excellent insights, Joel!

Of course, since we are talking about the proper translation of "aion" and "aionion" we need to note that "eternal life" is really "aionion" life - the "life" that is characteristic of the "aion." What that really means needs to be fleshed out. It seems that there words "aion" and "aionion" may not contain the concept of "eternity" as "endless time" at all.

The verses from 2 Tim 1:9 and Titus 1.2 are very intriguing. The phrase translated as "before the world began" is the Greek "pro chrono aioniou" - which really seems more like "before the time of [this] aion." Young's Literal Translation is the only one that captures this. He translates it as "before the times of the ages." The NASB translates it worst, "before all eternity." Most translate it as "before time began."

I love this theme! I feel like I am getting "oriented" in the structure of the universe as God created it. Aions of aions!

KJV Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Or as Young's Literal Translation has it:

YLT Ephesians 3:21 to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages (aion of aions). Amen.

Richard

joel
08-29-2007, 03:07 PM
Of course, since we are talking about the proper translation of "aion" and "aionion" we need to note that "eternal life" is really "aionion" life - the "life" that is characteristic of the "aion." What that really means needs to be fleshed out. It seems that there words "aion" and "aionion" may not contain the concept of "eternity" as "endless time" at all.



Indeed, it is. "Eternal life" is what it is commonly described as.......by the vast majority of those who bring the gospel......but, it actually is "aionion life", to be correct. It is life that is applicable and characteristic of the "eon".

"What that really means needs to be fleshed out.".....Richard said.
That was a slip of the keys, I'm sure.....you meant to say "flushed out", but, you actually said it better...."flesh".

The "concept of 'eternity' as 'endless time' " does not agree with "aion", and "aionion". Now if we speak of "immortality" which indicates life beyond the effect of death we may be in an "endless time" mode.

Sin belongs to the eons. Death belongs to the eons. The "first Adam" belongs to the eons. Enmity belongs to the eons. Rebellion and insubjection belong to the eons.

It is my belief that faith and hope belong to the eons as well. As does redemption, and salvation, and all the graces of God that are associated with our maturation, as we are becoming heirs of God who are prepared to enter into God's fullness.

Of those things which will continue on, we can be sure that both "light" and "love" will remain, as they express the very nature of God.

Joel

Rose
09-06-2007, 02:06 PM
The "concept of 'eternity' as 'endless time' " does not agree with "aion", and "aionion". Now if we speak of "immortality" which indicates life beyond the effect of death we may be in an "endless time" mode.

Sin belongs to the eons. Death belongs to the eons. The "first Adam" belongs to the eons. Enmity belongs to the eons. Rebellion and insubjection belong to the eons.

It is my belief that faith and hope belong to the eons as well. As does redemption, and salvation, and all the graces of God that are associated with our maturation, as we are becoming heirs of God who are prepared to enter into God's fullness.

Of those things which will continue on, we can be sure that both "light" and "love" will remain, as they express the very nature of God.

Joel

You have some good food for thought there.....:pop2:

Could we also say Hell belongs to the eons?

...... from the Bible we know that Hell is a place of punishment for those who reject the Son of God, what we are not sure of is the length of time that the punishment will continue. If Hell belongs to the eons, then it would continue for its appointed time... an eon, not being in the same realm as the eternal things of God that continue on without end.

Rose

joel
09-06-2007, 02:51 PM
Could we also say Hell belongs to the eons?

...... from the Bible we know that Hell is a place of punishment for those who reject the Son of God, what we are not sure of is the length of time that the punishment will continue. If Hell belongs to the eons, then it would continue for its appointed time... an eon, not being in the same realm as the eternal things of God that continue on without end.

Rose
__________________


Yes, I do also believe that "Hell" is eonian.

Joel

Stephen
09-06-2007, 04:45 PM
Hi All!

Joel, I have to put certain things to you before I can go any further with you on your linking aionios to 'eon'. It appears that your idea on this has been accepted far too uncritically. So I have a few questions for you.

Can you show me where the NT writers were consciously using the word aionios to refer to the idea of eon instead of eternity?

Can you show me where the NT writers actually really meant eternity rather than eon? Can you also show me how they expressed this in the Greek language? What words and phrases did they use instead of using aionios? I need to know this so I can see the distinction from the original languages. I would like to know what really is the Greek word for 'eternity' in the Bible since aionios doesn't mean eternity.

Thanks.

Stephen

joel
09-06-2007, 07:28 PM
Hi All!

Joel, I have to put certain things to you before I can go any further with you on your linking aionios to 'eon'. It appears that your idea on this has been accepted far too uncritically. So I have a few questions for you.

Can you show me where the NT writers were consciously using the word aionios to refer to the idea of eon instead of eternity?

Can you show me where the NT writers actually really meant eternity rather than eon? Can you also show me how they expressed this in the Greek language? What words and phrases did they use instead of using aionios? I need to know this so I can see the distinction from the original languages. I would like to know what really is the Greek word for 'eternity' in the Bible since aionios doesn't mean eternity.

Thanks.

Stephen

Stephen,

I can cite a few examples which may lay a foundation, but, I would encourage you to do your own detailed investigation and see if you can arrive at an inspired conclusion.

II Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

In both verses above, the word "world" is aionios, and not the "world" which is kosmos.

The word "aionios" is derived from a root word "aion" which means a specific period of time which would be best described as an "eon", the closest English word to "aion".
The word "kosmos" refers to the orderly arrangement of the heavens and the earth. It is a word which describes what has occurred in "space", whereas "aion" refers to that which occurs in time.

The translators of the King James version used "world" for both of these two distinctly different Greek words.

It is clear by the two examples cited above that neither verse can be referring to "eternity", or "eternal".

In addition to the two verses which show "world", there are others as well. "Aion" was translated by a number of different English words in the Authorized Version;
Ages, Eph. 2:7, Col. 1:26,
course, Eph. 2:2,
world, Matt. 12:32, 13:22, Romans 12:2, I Tim. 16:17, plus others,
eternal, Eph. 3:11, I Tim. 1:17,
for ever, Matt. 21:19, Mark 11:14, plus others,
never (with a negative added), Mark 3:29, Joh 4:14,
ever, Heb. 7:24
for evermore, Heb. 7:28
(taken from God's Eonian Purpose, Adlai Loudy, Concordant Publishing Concern).

God is working out His plan during the eons.

The first two verses cited clearly show that aion cannot mean eternal.
They describe events which occurred before the eons began.
We are currently living during the eonian times.
When these eons end, there will a continuance with God which we cannot be shown now.

During this current eon, grace is reigning.
In the next eon, when this one is brought to a close, God's wrath will be clearly displayed.

Jesus is managing both the kosmos and the eons to the glory of God.

Joel

Stephen
09-07-2007, 04:01 AM
Hi Joel!

Thank you for your reply.

You quote Titus 1:2 as one verse where aionios does not mean 'eternal', and yet the first occurrence of the word aionios in this very verse does, in fact, carry the meaning of 'eternal'! I think you've kind of shot your thesis in the foot. As I understand your argument, you say that aionios only means aeonic, or suchlike. But this is not what the verse says at the beginning, when it talks of zoace aioniou, which is eternal life.

I think what you've done is to unnecessarily limit the meaning of a word to fit your own interpretation of things. Clearly, limiting the meaning of aionios as you have contended doesn't stand up to scrutiny. And that's the danger of journeymen like ourselves making doctrine from the original tongues.

Thayer's lexicon has a lot to say on the word aionios. He doesn't just quote scriptural uses of the word to show that its primary meaning is 'eternal'. He cites other sources where the word is used to prove his point, such as Plato, Philo and Diodorus. In particular, Thayer notes Plato's use of the word to indicate the immeasurableness of eternity. Thayer interprets the words pro chronon aionion at the end of Titus 1:2 as carrying the meaning 'without beginning'.

So, on the authority of someone particularly well qualified to comment on what aionios really means, I'm sorry to say that your limiting of the meaning of aionios to a measurable amount of time called an 'aeon' carries no weight. This means that any thoughts or ideas built on that faulty interpretation of the word aionios are also highly problematic, to put it bluntly.

Do you really think Paul had the idea of an aeon in mind when he used the word aionios? Do you really think he held the same idea you espouse, that aionios meant only for a certain age? Or did he use the word like everyone else used it, to mean, in fact, eternity?

Stephen

joel
09-07-2007, 08:06 AM
Hi Joel!

Thank you for your reply.

You quote Titus 1:2 as one verse where aionios does not mean 'eternal', and yet the first occurrence of the word aionios in this very verse does, in fact, carry the meaning of 'eternal'! I think you've kind of shot your thesis in the foot. As I understand your argument, you say that aionios only means aeonic, or suchlike. But this is not what the verse says at the beginning, when it talks of zoace aioniou, which is eternal life.


Stephen, "zoace aioniou" has been translated as "eternal life" since that phrase entered into written translations of the Greek. And, you insist that it means exactly that...."eternal life". Such insistence is understandable.

As long as we also insist on "eternal death", we must insist, as well, on "eternal life".

In other words, as the common "gospel" is preached, "You must accept God's offer of "eternal life", or you will be "eternally dead". It is the either/or presentation of the "gospel" that has been prevalent, and continues to be so, and, I assume, will continue to be proclaimed until the end of this "eon".........which I assert will occur when the Lord comes to take out his body from the wrath to come of the next eon.

In that eon, when the resurrection of the Lord's saints of Israel occurs, they will enjoy "eonian life" which will allow them to reign with Him on earth.

But, there will still exist "death" in the next eon.....only it will not affect them.

There will come a time when death will be abolished. It will not last forever in that Christ will put an end to it. That being the case (which is clearly taught by Paul and is undisputed, but, may be unknown by some), why must we insist on "eternal life" rather than using the accurate words which the Spirit uses to describe spiritual blessings. Why use man-made words that cause confusion, division, and fleshly strivings?

We have been blessed with immortality (athanasia, deathlessness). Our enjoyment of immortality will occur when our bodies will be changed.

Being immortal is the supreme blessing, beyond the effects of death. Enjoying life for the eons will be a blessing of ours as well, along with the resurerrected saints of Israel. During the final eons, prior to the consummation, eonian life will be enjoyed by the elect.

We, the body of Christ, are to be enjoyers of eonian life now, in this era, while this eon moves to a conclusion. This life comes by means of the spirit of God who lives in us.

Paul says in Galatians 6, that we are either sowing to the flesh, or sowing to the Spirit. They that sow to the flesh will reap "corruption"......they that sow to the Spirit will reap "eonian life" (the AV has "eternal life"....that is the common "gospel"... that we have "eternal life" by accepting His offer of salvation....which is in line with another common erroneous teaching that says that you can "lose your salvation"?.......which I suppose such teaching would say that sowing to the flesh may in fact cause you be "unsaved" again).

Joel

Rose
09-07-2007, 08:10 AM
God is working out His plan during the eons.

The first two verses cited clearly show that aion cannot mean eternal.
They describe events which occurred before the eons began.
We are currently living during the eonian times.
When these eons end, there will a continuance with God which we cannot be shown now.

During this current eon, grace is reigning.
In the next eon, when this one is brought to a close, God's wrath will be clearly displayed.

Jesus is managing both the kosmos and the eons to the glory of God.

Joel

God created the eons to lay out His plan of salvation for His creation....
then stepped into it in the form of Jesus Christ to showforth His Glory!

Glory be to God!

Rose

joel
09-07-2007, 08:25 AM
God created the eons to lay out His plan of salvation for His creation....
then stepped into it in the form of Jesus Christ to showforth His Glory!

Glory be to God!

Rose
__________________

Rose,

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

Joel

Stephen
09-07-2007, 12:16 PM
Hello Joel!

You still haven't answered the queries I put to you. Do you really think Paul meant 'eonian life' as opposed to eternal life? Can you show any instance where he consciously meant this 'eonian' concept of yours when he used the word?

What I'm seeing from this distance is you trying to impose your meaning on a word when that word does not mean what you say it does. Can you please explain why it is that the ancient Greeks apparently meant 'eternal' when they used the word aionios? You've got the authority of Thayer against you, who quotes ancient Greek writers' uses of the word to show that it means the same as the English word 'eternal'. Who am I to believe? The expert, or the journeyman?

If aionios doesn't mean 'eternal', then what Greek word does mean 'eternal'? Or are you trying to tell me that there is no Greek word for 'eternal'? Are you telling me that there is no such thing as the concept of 'eternity' in Greek? This question needs answering.

Until you engage with these questions, I'm afraid to have to tell you that your 'eonian life' concept is meaningless. So please tell me what the Greek word for 'eternal' is, so I can distinguish it from aionios? That would be most helpful if I am to take your point seriously.

Stephen

joel
09-07-2007, 02:41 PM
Do you really think Paul meant 'eonian life' as opposed to eternal life?

Yes.


Can you show any instance where he consciously meant this 'eonian' concept of yours when he used the word?


Yes. As far as I know, the first instance that Paul uses the word occurs in Romans 2:7, where he is discussing that God will "pay" everyone who by continuance in good works seek glory, and honor and incorruption, "life eoinian".
If you think he is talking about "eternal life" we know that such a pursuit is vain, otherwise, God will grant "eternal life" vs. "eternal death" based on our works.
When you look at it as "eonian life" which is granted to believing and obedient Israelites in the context of Jesus' discussions with those who asked him how a person could gain such life, it makes perfect sense. You see, if you fulfilled the commandments, and, if you left behind all of those things which tie you to this world, you would be granted an entrance into the kingdom of God
where "eonian life" will be experienced by them.


Can you please explain why it is that the ancient Greeks apparently meant 'eternal' when they used the word aionios? You've got the authority of Thayer against you, who quotes ancient uses of the word to show that it means the same as the English word 'eternal'. Who am I to believe? The expert, or the journeyman?


I guess it depends on what you make as your source. Did the ancient Greeks uniformly and consistently use the word "aionios" as meaning "eternal"? If I am an unlearned journeyman, as you claim, then, my belief in God as saving all mankind, and my belief that chastisement and punishment is not eternal, but lasting for a proper duration, and, that life which eonian is a gift which does not pertain to "eternal" whereas when we are immortal because of our new bodies which are conformed to be as His body......then, regardless of Thayer, or whomever, says anything that is not consistent with that.....then, I must conclude that God, by His Spirit, never revealed that to them, just as He has obviously not revealed it to you.


If aionios doesn't mean 'eternal', then what Greek word does mean 'eternal'? Or are you trying to tell me that there is no Greek word for 'eternal'? Are you telling me that there is no such thing as the concept of 'eternity' in Greek? This question needs answering

I am not aware of any single word that means "eternal" in the Greek. I have already posted what "immortal" means which is "deathless", and I have given you the truth that Paul taught concerning that when we are "immortal" we cannot die...........but, it is important that we use the right words to convey spiritual meaning.......not just words that someone else interjected regardless of how long ago it was, or, whoever they were in the eyes of man.

I have answered your questions, to the best of my limitations.

Now, you can answer one for me, if you be so inclined:
Is "eternal life" as you call it, a gift, or a reward for obedience?

Joel

Stephen
09-07-2007, 03:21 PM
Hello Joel!

Thanks for replying, and for at least attempting an answer to the questions I posed of you. Unfortunately, your answers were entirely unsatisfactory. You failed to show me that your 'eonian' concept has any real meaning, first and foremost because you failed to show what 'eternal' is from the Greek. Really, if you deny that aionios means 'eternal' - and do so in the face of learned scholarship - then you must show that either, (i) the Greeks used a word or words other than aionios to refer to what we understand as 'eternal', or, (b) the Greeks had no concept of 'eternal', and therefore needed no word or words to articulate it. Your failure to grasp the implications of these two conditions that arise from your assertion that aionios doesn't mean 'eternal' has left you in the sorry state where you are claiming your own authority as justification for your beliefs in this matter. That simply doesn't pass the muster, Joel. You've got to do much better than that if you expect a receptive audience.

Now, as I see it, the problem with your understanding is that you are building doctrine from a faulty translation of a word, which immediately problematises that doctrine. You proceed from what I see to be error to then state that death is not eternal. Did you never read Revelation 20:14?

Joel, the Bible is strewn with copious references to the fate of the wicked. It states in very clear terms what happens to those who reject our Lord and make themselves enemies of God. Eternal damnation. The second death. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. These are just some of the terms the Lord uses. There are hundreds more such references.

The truth is, Joel, that sin and death are gonna get turfed into the lake of fire. If you are not one who completes the race to attain the crown of life, or if your name is not written in the book of life, you're a goner. If I recant my belief in the Lord today, and follow after a course that denies him for the rest of my life, then I'm a goner. That's what the Bible has always said. No way back. Disputing that truth, and, even worse, mistranslating a word to justify a false teaching is, in my opinion, a very sorry state of affairs to be in. It reminds me of a certain character of whom the Lord had much to say. Our Lord said this character was a murderer and a liar from the beginning (John 8:44). Let me remind you of that first lie:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die.

Be careful, Joel. The path you are treading in this thread is not the path that God's word has set.

Stephen

joel
09-07-2007, 03:51 PM
If you are not one who completes the race to attain the crown of life, or if your name is not written in the book of life, you're a goner. That's what the Bible has always said. Disputing that truth, and, even worse, mistranslating a word to justify a false teaching is, in my opinion, a very sorry state of affairs. It reminds me of a certain character of whom the Lord had much to say. Our Lord said this character was a murderer and a liar (John 8:44). Let me remind you of that first lie:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die.



Up to this point, Stephen, you have said that I;
1.) am a heretic,
2.) I am mistranslating a word to justify a false teaching,
3.) and, you finished me off by connecting me, in a loose way, with the Adversary, the murderer and liar.

And, this is your opinion because I believe that God will save all.

I believe you have a made a judgment of me that is characteristic of that which Paul asked;
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

I suppose you will say to Him......."Well, Lord, I tried to warn him. I tried to keep from the eternal fire...and the worms that will forever consume his flesh...and....and....and.....but he just wouldn't listen."

Joel

Stephen
09-07-2007, 04:20 PM
Hello Joel!

That is not what I meant at all, and I'm sorry that you pick it up as being personal, because it isn't. I do not condemn you as a brother, but I do have real problems with some of the things you are saying in this thread. I am only challenging your opinions and contentions on biblical grounds, because I firmly believe you to be in error. It is that error that I am interested in deconstructing. However, as a brother, I certainly do not condemn you. Please, try not to overpersonalise. Let's keep the discussion to the points of contestation.

Stephen

Rose
09-07-2007, 07:19 PM
I think we need to give each other a bit more grace when it comes to what certain words mean to each of us. Who amongst us can truly say we fully comprehend the meaning of words like eternity or forever; we can only hope to understand them by applying their meaning to the time frame of our life experiences.

The only way we can know what "Gods love" means is to relate it to the love we feel for our children or our spouse or parent. WE as humans are very limited in our ability to understand the quality's of words like "the Glory of God" and "Gods Righteousness" or terms like eternal and everlasting.

That is why God came to earth in human form so we could understand God in our realm of time.

2 Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

I believe the words that are used in the Bible are meant to be understood and applied to our concept of time, for there is no other way we as mortal humans can begin to grasp immortality or truly know what eternity means, if we don't apply them to this life, the most we can do is guess. I think words like eternal and everlasting are to be understood in light of what we know best....seeing through human eyes. God fully knows our limitations as humans, and that is why He sent the Holy Spirit to guide us in all truth.

The most we can hope for, is to understand God through the revelation of Jesus Christ given to us in the Bible.

My prayer is that God will open our eyes to a fuller understanding of His Word...:pray:

Rose

Richard Amiel McGough
09-07-2007, 08:42 PM
Hello Joel!

Thanks for replying, and for at least attempting an answer to the questions I posed of you. Unfortunately, your answers were entirely unsatisfactory. You failed to show me that your 'eonian' concept has any real meaning, first and foremost because you failed to show what 'eternal' is from the Greek. Really, if you deny that aionios means 'eternal' - and do so in the face of learned scholarship - then you must show that either, (i) the Greeks used a word or words other than aionios to refer to what we understand as 'eternal', or, (b) the Greeks had no concept of 'eternal', and therefore needed no word or words to articulate it.
Hey there Stephen,

Too much steam in the boiler may pop a pipe, my friend.

Earlier in this thread, I posted a link to Louis Abbott's An Analytical Study of Words which is a thorough analysis of the meanings of olam, aion, and aionios. Did you read it? If not, then how can you assert that Joel is contradicting "learned scholarship"? Now I myself have not read the whole book, but you should at least check out his Chapter 3 called "Opinion of the Scholars (http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter3.html).

Now it is true that the much scholarship does translate aionios as "eternal" and "everlasting" - but since when did you opt to go with the majority without testing the ideas for yourself? And one thing you must know is that olam and aion often denote ages = finite periods of time. Thus, the most literal meaning of the adjective aionios is "of the aion" or "of the age." This is acknowledged, for example, in the New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries:

aiōnios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Now the fact that it often, or even usually, means "eternal" does not mean that it always has that meaning. This is the point that needs to be proven. You have not proved your view yet, you know.


Now, as I see it, the problem with your understanding is that you are building doctrine from a faulty translation of a word, which immediately problematises that doctrine. You proceed from what I see to be error to then state that death is not eternal. Did you never read Revelation 20:14?
I read it, but I don't see why you quoted it, since it seems to contradict the point you are trying to prove:


Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
That represents the end of death. Therefore, death is finite, and not eternal. Of course, if you are anhiliated then you will be "dead forever" - but when you say things like that you need to be careful that you don't confuse "eternal death" with "eternal life in a really bad place." That's t he most common error I see people make.


Joel, the Bible is strewn with copious references to the fate of the wicked. It states in very clear terms what happens to those who reject our Lord and make themselves enemies of God. Eternal damnation. The second death. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. These are just some of the terms the Lord uses. There are hundreds more such references.
All those verses need to be interpreted in light of all the others. For example, the fire does not end, but what about that which is thrown into it? And if the wicked are not consummed by the unquenchable fire, perhaps they are brought to repentance by it. There are many possibilities. If the situation were as "obvious" as you are trying to make it, there would be no Bible believing Christians proposing it. But the fact is that there are many serious students of the Bible who believe that God's Love will be truly victorious over sin and death.



1 Corinthians 15:53-58 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


RAM

Stephen
09-07-2007, 09:26 PM
Hello Richard!

You know, the funny thing is I never said at any stage that the word aionios only means 'eternal'. That's my point! You will have to review my posts in order to see this for yourself. You see, my objection was specifically in regard to Joel's contention that aionios doesn't mean 'eternal'. The fact is that aionios does mean 'eternal'. I have not limited the word to that meaning, although I have contended that 'eternal' is its primary meaning. Again, perhaps you ought to check my posts again to verify this. The only thing I had to prove was that aionios does mean 'eternal', and not that it may also have inflected meanings besides. I think I've done that, and you even seem to agree!

Concerning Revelation 20:14, you seem to have missed the point. The second death is death. That's why it is called thanatos, and not some other word. The writer calls it deuteros thanatos because it is thanatos, and there ain't no coming back from that one. There ain't no redemption or hope once that's been cast into the lake of fire.

Of course, I don't believe eternal life in a very bad place is what the Bible teaches. But I do believe death is forever if your name isn't written in the book of life. Now when you go casting around ideas that maybe people are saved by the unquenchable fire, you really need to start building a solid case for it because you've got hundreds of verses up against you. Regardless of what some Christians might think of the idea, prove it from Scripture or drop it. Most American Christians believe in futurism, but they are clearly deceived by this false teaching. This notion that God will save everybody is just another such false teaching.

Now, I fear the Lord. By that I mean I contemplate often the thought of being struck out of the book of life. It helps me to try and keep my ship from running aground, because, unlike most people at this forum, I have an addictive nature that I will be living with till the day I die. I have no qualms about that. It has taught, and teaches, me some great things about God that I wouldn't otherwise know. Now, to suggest that I'm going to be saved anyway is a licence for me to do as I will. I regard that as coming straight from the mouth of the devil: Ye shall not surely die.

A liar and a murderer from the beginning, Jesus called that beguiling serpent. Straight up, that's what I think you're doing when you entertain such thoughts that all will be saved. They won't be.

Stephen

Rose
09-07-2007, 10:37 PM
Hi Stephen :yo:


Now, I fear the Lord. By that I mean I contemplate often the thought of being struck out of the book of life. It helps me to try and keep my ship from running aground, because, unlike most people at this forum, I have an addictive nature that I will be living with till the day I die. I have no qualms about that. It has taught, and teaches, me some great things about God that I wouldn't otherwise know. Now, to suggest that I'm going to be saved anyway is a licence for me to do as I will. I regard that as coming straight from the mouth of the devil: Ye shall not surely die.

A liar and a murderer from the beginning, Jesus called that beguiling serpent. Straight up, that's what I think you're doing when you entertain such thoughts that all will be saved. They won't be.

Stephen


Just want to thank you for sharing those insights about yourself, it helps me to understand where your coming from better. Our individual personalities color the way we interpret Scripture, which can be very positive if we continually seek to find the truth.

Now, I also fear the Lord but the thought of being struck out of the book of life never enters my mind; and it wouldn't matter one whit to me if everyone got saved no matter what they did, I still wouldn't change how I live my life or my desire to live every moment seeking Gods direction.

I think the main thing is to have a teachable heart before God, because He knows each of us and our needs.

Rose

Stephen
09-07-2007, 11:10 PM
Hello Rose!

Yes, I totally agree with you about remaining teachable and pliable in the hands of the Lord. I also share a similar reaction with you as regards God suddenly deciding to save everyone that ever lived, should He do an about-face and so do. I would be absolutely delighted if God saved everyone, because then there would be no chance of missing out on eternal life. There would be no eternal consequences for any of our actions, and we wouldn't have to resist the devil because we'd know it's gonna be hunky-dory no matter what. :hippie:"Ye shall not surely die."

Alas, the Bible teaches us that God will not save everyone. So I honour God by taking Him at His word when He says that the wicked will perish, which He does in hundreds of places in the Bible. I also honour God by standing up for His word, and resisting what I believe to be false doctrine. I could be more gracious in doing so, but you have to catch me on a good day to get that kind of reaction.

And they're all good days!

Stephen

joel
09-08-2007, 03:41 AM
Now, you can answer one for me, if you be so inclined:
Is "eternal life" as you call it, a gift, or a reward for obedience?

Joel


Stephen, I answered your questions, unsatisfactorially as you have reported, but, I answered them none the less.

Please do likewise.

Joel

Stephen
09-08-2007, 04:28 AM
Hello Joel!

In answer to your question, did you ever ask a woman to dance, Joel? And did she ever accept?

Stephen

joel
09-08-2007, 06:43 AM
Stephen, your reply was;

Hello Joel!

In answer to your question, did you ever ask a woman to dance, Joel? And did she ever accept?

Stephen
----------------------------------------------------
My original question to you was;

Quote:
Now, you can answer one for me, if you be so inclined:
Is "eternal life" as you call it, a gift, or a reward for obedience?

Joel
----------------------------------------------------
My answer to your reply is;
Yes, and,
Yes.

Thanks for your answer. Interpreted that means;
Stephen believes that "eternal life" is a gift, "yes", and,
Stephen believes that "eternal life" is a reward for obedience, "yes".

-----------------------------------------------------

That being the case, please allow me to ask you another question;
What were the Israelites looking for in anticipation of their inheritance?

Joel

Richard Amiel McGough
09-08-2007, 08:33 AM
Hello Richard!

You know, the funny thing is I never said at any stage that the word aionios only means 'eternal'. That's my point! You will have to review my posts in order to see this for yourself. You see, my objection was specifically in regard to Joel's contention that aionios doesn't mean 'eternal'.
Ah ... I missed that nuance. I thought that the argument was over whether it ever meant something other than eternal.


The fact is that aionios does mean 'eternal'. I have not limited the word to that meaning, although I have contended that 'eternal' is its primary meaning. Again, perhaps you ought to check my posts again to verify this. The only thing I had to prove was that aionios does mean 'eternal', and not that it may also have inflected meanings besides. I think I've done that, and you even seem to agree!
Yep! I agree.


Concerning Revelation 20:14, you seem to have missed the point. The second death is death. That's why it is called thanatos, and not some other word. The writer calls it deuteros thanatos because it is thanatos, and there ain't no coming back from that one. There ain't no redemption or hope once that's been cast into the lake of fire.
Well, I don't build doctrines from single verses, especially from single verses lifted from the most symbolic book in the Bible, and especially especially when we are dealing with the question of the ultimate fate of souls. The question is as broad as the Bible itself, and can not be answered with "proof texting." It requires a large panoramic theology of the whole Bible to answer adequately.


Of course, I don't believe eternal life in a very bad place is what the Bible teaches. But I do believe death is forever if your name isn't written in the book of life. Now when you go casting around ideas that maybe people are saved by the unquenchable fire, you really need to start building a solid case for it because you've got hundreds of verses up against you.
Hundreds of verses? I do believe you are overstating your case. I've read a number of books that argue all sides of the issues, such as "Two Views of Hell" and "Four Views of Hell" and so forth. I am familiar with the supporting verses for the various views, and I know that there are not "hundreds" of verses that go against the purgative view of hell.

As for "saved by the unquenchable fire" I never said that. Every one is saved through Christ by repenting of their sin and believing the Gospel. The "unquenchable fire" may be God's last ditch effort to bring the particularly stubborn souls to repentance.

So it sounds like you believe in anhilation of the damned, since you say they will not have "eternal life in a very bad place." Is that correct?


Regardless of what some Christians might think of the idea, prove it from Scripture or drop it. Most American Christians believe in futurism, but they are clearly deceived by this false teaching. This notion that God will save everybody is just another such false teaching.
If I wanted to "proof text" the doctrine, I could say that God said his will is that no one perish, and since he is God, he gets what he wants. QED. Universalism. Of course, that's not the proper way to handle the Scriptures, whether arguing for or against this doctrine.

It seems you are unaware of the fact that there are more than a few passages that appear to teach universalism, just as there are many that appear to teach eternal conscious torment, and yet others that appear to teach anihilationism. You have simply chosen the subset that fits your view, and declared "ex cathedra" that all other views are "obviously" false because they contradict the view you happen to prefer. Have you ever read any of the books that debate the various doctrines of hell, such as the "Four Views of Hell" mentioned above? My copy is hard to read because I have scribbled in my comments on every line! Its not like I haven't been thinking about this problem for decades, ya know?


Now, I fear the Lord. By that I mean I contemplate often the thought of being struck out of the book of life. It helps me to try and keep my ship from running aground, because, unlike most people at this forum, I have an addictive nature that I will be living with till the day I die. I have no qualms about that. It has taught, and teaches, me some great things about God that I wouldn't otherwise know. Now, to suggest that I'm going to be saved anyway is a licence for me to do as I will. I regard that as coming straight from the mouth of the devil: Ye shall not surely die.

A liar and a murderer from the beginning, Jesus called that beguiling serpent. Straight up, that's what I think you're doing when you entertain such thoughts that all will be saved. They won't be.

Stephen
You have just stated the problem of the TRUE GOSPEL that Paul addressed in Romans 6:


Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
It sounds like you think the good news of God's salvation would be just a little too good if God really did save everyone. The problem you have with universalism is exactly the same problem that the legalists and Pharisees have always had with the Gospel itself! Legalists and Pharisees just can not stand it when God goes about saving real sinners while ignoring the righteousness they worked so hard, so very hard, to achieve so that they themselves could ensure that God would be required to write them in his book of life.

Now I trust you understand that I have not come to a conclusion on this doctrine yet. I am divided between it and Anihilationism. The latter seems to answer all the objections you raise concerning the verses that teach the finality of judgment. It is likely, therefore, that Anihilationism is the best interpretation that coheres with the most verses.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
09-08-2007, 08:57 AM
I would be absolutely delighted if God saved everyone, because then there would be no chance of missing out on eternal life. There would be no eternal consequences for any of our actions, and we wouldn't have to resist the devil because we'd know it's gonna be hunky-dory no matter what. :hippie:"Ye shall not surely die."

Hey ho Stephen!

Since we are speaking plainly, I must tell you that I believe you have just asserted one of the grossest errors of superficial pop Christianity. Christ did not live and die and rise again just to get you a "ticket to heaven." That is a horrible caricature of God's Gospel. There is something of infinitely greater, indeed eternal, consequence going on here. It has to do with the incarnation of God in Christ, the manifestation of the sons of God, and the redemption of the whole creation to make it a dwelling place for God. Our actions in this world have real and eternal meaning, whether or not God succeeds in his desire to save everyone. To suggest that universal salvation implies that there would be "no eternal consequenes" denies that God is working though creation to accomplish something Paul described as an "eternal weight of glory." In short, it makes God's creation and everything we do in it meaningless.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
09-08-2007, 09:07 AM
Now, I also fear the Lord but the thought of being struck out of the book of life never enters my mind; and it wouldn't matter one whit to me if everyone got saved no matter what they did, I still wouldn't change how I live my life or my desire to live every moment seeking Gods direction.
Hi Rose!

That's a really important point. Fear of hell is not the "primary point" of the Gospel. Sure, salvation from hell is an essential aspect, but the Gospel promises something much greater, namely, union with God. Hence the marriage metaphors, especially those on Spoke 22, the Spoke of Consummation. That's the real glory of the Gospel.

I particularly like your statement that "the thought of being struck out of the book of life never enters my mind." It like a good marriage. How many happily married folks work harder on their marriage out of a constant underlying fear of divorce? None! The thought never enters their mind, because they are secure and happy in their marital union. And if it did enter their mind, it would indicate that there was something wrong with the marriage.

Richard

joel
09-08-2007, 01:22 PM
It seems you are unaware of the fact that there are more than a few passages that appear to teach universalism, just as there are many that appear to teach eternal conscious torment, and yet others that appear to teach anihilationism. You have simply chosen the subset that fits your view, and declared "ex cathedra" that all other views are "obviously" false because they contradict the view you happen to prefer. Have you ever read any of the books that debate the various doctrines of hell, such as the "Four Views of Hell" mentioned above? My copy is hard to read because I have scribbled in my comments on every line! Its not like I haven't been thinking about this problem for decades, ya know?



Aionion, if it means having an age duration,...............and, if you use it in that context, it eliminates all of the various theories, and confines the chastisement to the time of the eons, which is corrective, not eternally punishing.

Joel

Richard Amiel McGough
09-08-2007, 06:15 PM
Aionion, if it means having an age duration,...............and, if you use it in that context, it eliminates all of the various theories, and confines the chastisement to the time of the eons, which is corrective, not eternally punishing.

Joel
And that's the debate! All scholars know that olam and aion often denote an "age" - but there is dispute about the meaning of the adjectives aionion (netuer) and aionios (masculine). It seems to me that the adjective should be able to be interpreted as "of the [insert noun]" - i.e. "of the aion" or "of the age." A good study would be to see if there is any adjective that never carries the meaning of "of the [insert noun]."

Now I do believe that we can justify the assertion that aionion can, in some contexts, mean "of the age." The questions then are these: Which meaning did God intend in the verses relating to aionion punishment? And how do we know?

Richard

yeshua_seven
01-01-2008, 11:10 PM
This thread hasn't been active in awhile, but I have some things to say.

The main thing that comes to mind when reading this is a lack of understanding on what "death" means. We know that death means various things. I perceive that some of you have a different understanding of death than I do. Let us begin in Genesis.

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" (Genesis 2:16-17, NKJV).

"Then the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil'" (Genesis 3:4-5).

God said that Adam would die "in the day that" he ate from the tree. The context seems to be saying that Adam would die that very same day he ate from the tree. Satan said to Eve, "you will not surely die." Eve and then Adam ate from the tree. Was Satan right? For Adam and Eve did not die as God said they would. Does God lie? By no means. God was referring to spiritual death, while Satan was referring to immediate physical death. In reality, Satan did not lie, all he did was deceive them talking about physical death rather than spiritual death. To many that still falls under the category of lie, so let it be so.

The question which now arises is about spiritual death. What is spiritual death? How can it be defined?

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:26).

"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Hebrews 4:12).

All of us are made of body, soul, and spirit. Our body without our spirit is dead. When Jesus hung on the cross and gave up His spirit, at that very moment He physically died. When Lazarus was dead in the tomb, his spirit had already departed. When Jesus resurrected him, his spirit returned to his body. So also when our spirit leaves our bodies, we will physically die. On the day of our resurrection, our spirit will return to our body, thus being physically resurrected. As you all know, God will give us glorified bodies.

Let us look at Jesus' incarnation. When the Holy Spirit gave a seed to Mary, which is an act of creation and shows that the Holy Spirit also has a role in creation, a body of flesh began to form in the womb of Mary. Jesus Christ, the second person of the Godhead, came down from heaven and entered into that body of flesh in Mary's womb, and thus the body came to life. God is spirit (John 4:24). God is not one spirit, but three spirits. The Father is a spirit, the Son is a spirit, and the Holy Spirit is a spirit. Jesus, in his normal spirit form, came to earth and took on flesh. When He died on the cross, His spirit left His body and went to Hades (often translated as 'hell' which is someone misleading). Hades being the place of the dead.

After three days His spirit returned to His body and He was resurrected with a glorified body of not flesh and blood, but flesh and bone. Although flesh and bone, He still was able to eat food and drink beverages. As for the need to go to the bathroom, scripture is not clear, but most likely our glorified bodies won't have such a need.

As I have shown, the body without are spirit is physically dead. That still leaves the question on what spiritual death is. If physical death can be defined as our spirit being seperated from our body, then spiritual death can be defined as our spirit being seperated from God.

When God created Adam and Eve, I believe the Holy Spirit dwelled within them. They had perfect fellowship with God. They were spiritually alive. They had eternal life. After they ate from the tree, they died, just as God said they would. The Holy Spirit departed from them and fellowship with God was broken. Adam and Eve suffered spiritual death, for their spirit was seperated from God. In order for Adam and Eve to be restored to God and enter the kingdom of heaven, they must be born again. All of Adam's descendents are born unto spiritual death, for none of us are born in fellowship with God and with the Holy Spirit dwelling within us.

The price of sin would have to be paid before those who love God can be born-again. Animal sacrifices were only a shadow of the true sacrifice, and thus Abramah, David, Isaiah, and all the saints of old were never born-again for the perfect sacrifice had not yet come. However, they were saved by faith, and Christ has purchased them with His blood.

The wages of sin is death. The punishment for those who reject Christ is the second death. What is the first death? I always think of it as our physical death, but I just realized that it is possible the first death may be referring to our spiritual death which we inherited from our father Adam. If we don't accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and surrender our lives to Him, then we will receive the second death, which means our spirit will be thrown into the Lake of Fire where our spirit will be seperated from God for all eternity.

In this lifetime, even though we are born unto spiritual death, God is still involved in our lives. We are blessed with food, shelter, money, and God shows us love and discipline, etc, etc. The second death is when God withdraws completely and is no longer involved in any. People in this life often get a taste of the Lake of Fire in that many on this earth are lonely and depressed and many just want to die. The difference is there is still hope, and of course people can turn to drugs and alcohol as a sort of blessing, something people in the Lake of Fire will no longer have.

In conclusion, death is divided into spiritual death and physical death. Physical death is when our spirit seperates from our body, and spiritual death is when our spirit seperates from God. All of us have experienced spiritual death, especially the saints under the Old Covenant, however, what is common to us all, is the hope found in God and His promises. Praise be to God Almighty! Bless thee O Adonai!

p.s. It was through much prayer that I came to believe what I have expressed in this post. I encourage everyone to ask God questions and ask for understanding on things, and if it be God's will to give us an answer, He will do so. At times God doesn't want to give us answers for various reasons, and that is something we must be willing to accept. How what I have said here is agreeable with or disagreeable by those of you who read it and respond requires discernment on my behalf on whether what I have written is inspired by God or just the wisdom of a mere man.

Trumpet
01-02-2008, 01:01 PM
Hi Yeshua,

I've struggled with this for many years, and one of my many hang-ups, like you, has been what happens in "spiritual death". I can give my opinion here, of some of what I now realize.

We try to analyze God's plan through what we see in scripture, which is good, but sometimes we skip something that God laid out.This stuff goes deeper than just the plain points of Christianity, because those points are just the milk. If you want meat, I'm sure you know that you have to dig deeper. Meat comes through death, and so does eating meat; you have to learn some amount of sanctification, which involves dying to self.

I found that I was analyzing this spiritual death thing, with a disregard, and an ignorance of God's judgment system. He laid down violations, and He also laid down punishments. For every violation, without a reason for grace, there is a corresponding payment to be made. When you say that we received the payment of death from Adam, that's not quite the correct order. We received the ability to sin from Adam, and when you sin, which everyone does, the payment is body death. It's a system of paying debts. If you steal, you pay the price; either double, or more, depending on the circumstances. Every debt or wrong has a corresponding payment. By sinning of our own accord, (which is different than the sin debt we received from Adam, even though the ability to do this came from Adam,) we violate our own soul, and the payment for our own sin is the second death, which is the Lake of Fire. God never issued a payment rendered that involves eternal torment. That would make God out to be an ogre of unbelivable proportions! If you believe that Jesus died for your sins, His blood covers the sin stain on your soul, and you won't go through the punishment that is given for that, which is the Lake of Fire. Now, if you don't have belief in Jesus' work for you, you will have to make the payment for that, which is the Lake of Fire, but is that eternal? And besides that, what exactly is the Lake of Fire? I've come to the conclusion that since God doesn't recompense for eternity: (there is a time punishment for everything, and eternity is without time: can you imagine God sentencing someone to an eternity in an unquenchable, tortuous hell for never hearing of him?) then the answer lies somewhere else.

Think this over. There's more.

God Bless Don

joel
01-02-2008, 08:26 PM
That still leaves the question on what spiritual death is.

Is there such thing as "spiritual death".

Is death applicable to the spirit as if it held it, or kept it when it is separated from the body?

The process of Death seems to me to be a "return". The spirit returns to God.
Thes body returns to the earth. And, the soul returns to Hades, the abode of the soul in death.

When, at the moment of death, the spirit leaves the body, it returns unto God, Who is spirit. The body cannot be "alive" without the spirit. Spirit is associated with breath. When the body is joined with the spirit, the soul is perceptive and expressive, a living soul.

There are three phases of return to life after death; awakening, standing-up, and the return of life. These three phases are described by three different words; rousing, arising, and life-imparting.

At the moment of death, the soul is no longer perceiving. And, there will be no perception until the body and the spirit are joined again, which is what occurs at "resurrection". The soul will not be aware of the duration of time experienced in death. When the resurrection occurs, it will be as if it immediately occurs after death, when, in fact, a lengthly duration may have occured.

Joel

Richard Amiel McGough
01-03-2008, 10:35 AM
This thread hasn't been active in awhile, but I have some things to say.

Hey there yeshua_seven,

This is what's great about forums. Conversations can lay dormant for months and then someone comes along and revives them. I'm glad you shared your ideas.


The main thing that comes to mind when reading this is a lack of understanding on what "death" means. We know that death means various things. I perceive that some of you have a different understanding of death than I do. Let us begin in Genesis.

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" (Genesis 2:16-17, NKJV).

"Then the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil'" (Genesis 3:4-5).

God said that Adam would die "in the day that" he ate from the tree. The context seems to be saying that Adam would die that very same day he ate from the tree. Satan said to Eve, "you will not surely die." Eve and then Adam ate from the tree. Was Satan right? For Adam and Eve did not die as God said they would. Does God lie? By no means. God was referring to spiritual death, while Satan was referring to immediate physical death. In reality, Satan did not lie, all he did was deceive them talking about physical death rather than spiritual death. To many that still falls under the category of lie, so let it be so.

The question which now arises is about spiritual death. What is spiritual death? How can it be defined?

<snip>

As I have shown, the body without are spirit is physically dead. That still leaves the question on what spiritual death is. If physical death can be defined as our spirit being seperated from our body, then spiritual death can be defined as our spirit being seperated from God.



I think that is a very plausible definition ... but I am not certain yet. The problem I have is with the idea of a spirit floating around "separated" from God but still "in" God in as much as God must sustain its existence. It seems simpler and perhaps more biblical to believe in the annihilation of unbelieving souls as Christ warned:
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Since Christ put the death of the body in parallel with the destruction of the soul, I see this as evidence for annihilationism. But others who want to support the idea of eternal conscious torment argue that the word destroy means "ruin" rather than "annihilate" which is a valid alternative. So I have not been able to find anything definitive in Scripture yet.


When God created Adam and Eve, I believe the Holy Spirit dwelled within them. They had perfect fellowship with God. They were spiritually alive. They had eternal life. After they ate from the tree, they died, just as God said they would.

Some would argue that you can't lose eternal life, or it wasn't eternal in the first place. I agree they have a point, but I see things differently because the word eternal (olam, aionion) could be understood as "enduring throughout the age" - basically the idea of "transcendent" life which would continue indefinitely but not necessarily forever (as is clear from the effects of their sin).


The Holy Spirit departed from them and fellowship with God was broken.

Actually, I find here the key to understanding how Adam and Eve sinned before the had a "sin nature" - God was NOT present with them in active communion when they sinned. The text only mentions an intermittent presence of God in the garden. So it looks like he left them alone to follow their own fleshly inclinations which naturally led to sin, since it is impossible to please God if you are not in communion with His Spirit.

All that to say that they were not in communion with God even before they sinned, and that after they sinned every possibility of communion was broken until the redeemer came.


Adam and Eve suffered spiritual death, for their spirit was seperated from God.

And now I see another difficulty. I don't see how they could have sinned had they not already been "separated" from God in some sense.


In order for Adam and Eve to be restored to God and enter the kingdom of heaven, they must be born again. All of Adam's descendents are born unto spiritual death, for none of us are born in fellowship with God and with the Holy Spirit dwelling within us.

Agreed.


In conclusion, death is divided into spiritual death and physical death. Physical death is when our spirit seperates from our body, and spiritual death is when our spirit seperates from God. All of us have experienced spiritual death, especially the saints under the Old Covenant, however, what is common to us all, is the hope found in God and His promises. Praise be to God Almighty! Bless thee O Adonai!

In general, that seems pretty plausible, but I'm still working on it.

Thanks for your input, its very helpful.

Richard

Trumpet
01-03-2008, 04:33 PM
Hi guys,

Paul divides a person into Spirit, soul, and body. He calls the Spirit that which is present in the inner man. He calls the soul the "old man". In Eph.3:16, he talks of being strenghtened with might by the Spirit, in the inner man. John also says that we sin not if we abide with Him. 1 Jn.3:6 The only way to abide is in the Spirit. Paul says that the "old man" is what we need to consider dead and crucified with Jesus. Romans 6:6 So to say that the Spirit of Jesus went to Hades, is incorrect. His soul went there, representing our old man's death. The old man is the sinner. The soul is the part of man that is affected by the ability to sin, which was passed down from Adam. Adam's sin caused corruption to manifest in all of creation, and it is a debt owed, because it says "the wages of sin is death. It doesn't say the penalty for sin is death. So Jesus paid the debt with the only body and soul that has ever had the right and ability to pay for this penalty; His own sinless self.

When Jesus becomes our savior, He is substituting Himself for us, but we only receive the promise for now. And that is the Holy Spirit. If Jesus' atonement took total effect upon salvation, then we would instantly have new resurrected bodies, but it says in Hebrews 11:39,40, that all have to wait for the promise, so that those before us, do not preceed us, nor do we preceed those after us.

So the Spirit in us cannot die and be separated from God, because it IS God.

God Bless Don

MuadDib987
01-08-2008, 02:24 AM
Here's a good page regarding this subject. . .

http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html

"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together [just like the fall "ingathering of the harvest"] in one ALL [‘things’ is not in the Greek] in Christ, both which are IN HEAVEN, and which are ON EARTH, IN HIM"

Elisabeth
01-08-2008, 06:03 AM
Richard, I saw in another thread that you wanted to
start a thread on this.



These verses speak of satan cast into the lake of fire and says that he will cease to exist: "never shalt thou be anymore."

Geoffrey

Hi all,

Back again and registered. There are so many threads of interest and I still a bit lost as to how to navigate and work this forum. I am intensely interested in this post about hell not being eternal. I fully agree with Geoffrey about this although I am keeping an open mind. My friends and I studied this out and have come up with the following: If we have an eternal soul right from the start then there must be an eternally burning hell. But the Bible does not teach that hence we cannot have an eternal soul from the start. The above Bible quotes brought forward by Geoffrey seem to imply that the lives of wicked will come to an end. We do not find anything in the Word of God about the wicked existing forever. About man's soul: We find God saying Genesis 3:22 after Adam and Eve had disobeyed Him:

Genesis 3:22 Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and life for ever: :24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the East of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way to the tree of life.

Eternal life was therefore a condition right from the start just as it is today. It seems to us that man was given a choice, to eat from the tree of life and live forever, which was believing in God's Word, or to eat from the tree of evil or the word of God's enemy and living for a certain period of time only. Since man chose believe God's enemy instead of God, God had to provide a way back to Himself, Jesus Christ. By believing in Him we pass from death to life. We become members of His eternal kingdom. We sit in heavenly places with Christ. Just as we become spiritual members first and later literal members so it works with Satan's kingdom. Anyone therefore who does not eat from Jesus the manna from heaven has condemned himself to life that does not go on forever. He becomes a members or is already a member of hell, Satan's spiritual kingdom. If hell is going to be thrown into the lake of fire then the lake of fire cannot be the same as the hell that is going to pass away. Hell can be experienced today:

Proverbs 15:24: The way of life [is] above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

The sorrows of hell can compass us now in this life.

Psalm 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me. .

We can make our bed in hell.

Psalm 139:8. If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell behold, thou art there.

We find that hell and death are never satisfied:

Proverbs 27:20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

In Proverbs we read that those who unite themselves with a whore are dead and in hell. Proverbs 9:18: But he knoweth not that the dead [are] there; [and that] her guests [are] in the depths of hell.

A whore does not have a literal dead person visiting her. This is a spiritually dead person. Her place is not literally in hell, hence it must be the spiritual kingdom of Satan. What I suggest is that there is the kingdom of God and there is the kingdom of Satan. Both commence spiritually and during that time we can pass over from the one to the other. But after death it is impossible to pass over any more. There will then be two literal kingdoms, God's kingdom going on forever and Satan's kingdom in which people will be tormented because they are then under the full control of demons and there is no way out any more. This torment come both from wicked angels but also from being cut off from God's mercy.

Matthew 8:29 What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

And Hebrews 12:29 says that our God is a consuming fire. Anything that is consumed is gone. When mercy is withdrawn then the wicked can no longer exist in God's presence. And the Bible teaches that God is everywhere. With regards to the fire of hell that burns eternally, I suggest that the fire that came down from God out of heaven and which consumed the sacrifice on the altar but which was never to go out was an earthly figure of the eternal God who is a consuming fire. Leviticus 6:13. David said that when he went into the tabernacle he saw the death or end of the wicked. God Himself would accept both Christ's sacrifice and our sacrifices and whatever we put on the altar voluntarily He will purify. But this same fire that purifies the righteous and burns away everything evil and earthly from them but which cannot kill them because they have new life within which is eternal, will complete consume the wicked because they are earthly and have no life that comes from God within them. They are from beneath. Sensually, devilish.
All sin offerings for the whole congregation were taken outside the camp to be destroyed no doubt with the very same fire that was always burning on the altar. Jesus died outside the camp, since He was considered one with the transgressors. The death of Christ therefore is also an example of how the wicked will die because He died in our stead. I am not suggesting that they will be crucified but it is very obvious that Jesus was in terrible agony and that He was being taunted or tormented by evil angels who spoke to Him through those who rejected Him but who may also have spoken to Him in His mind since He was now considered part of the kingdom of Satan. I can hardly begin to imagine what we have escaped through the mercy of God.

Elisabeth

Elisabeth
01-08-2008, 07:18 AM
One thought with relation to the death of the wicked which I did not included in my last response:

When Jesus hung dying on the cross He cried out: My God my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

It seems to me that this is a very crucial point in our understanding of what the death of the wicked is all about. It is being cutt off completely from the Lifegiver. And where there is no life there can be nothing else but death. And yes, Jesus did say that God would destroy both the body and the soul of the wicked in "hell". Referring not to the kingdom of Satan here but the valley of Hinnom where all rubbish would be thrown into an everlasting fire because while there is rubbish to burn the fire will not go out. With regards to death and hell being destroyed in the lake of fire, death is the wages of sin. Sin cuts us off from the Lifegiver. In Adam we were already cut off from God but through Jesus Christ the second Adam He restored this connection with Himself temporarily. But man like Adam still has to eat from the tree of life to receive eternal life and become a descendant of the second Adam. The hell which is going to be thrown into the lake of fire is both the spiritual and later (after the resurrection of the wicked) the literal kingdom of Satan. You destroy the kingdom of Satan and all sin, then death will come to an end also. Those we remain have the Eternal Spirit of God within them and so there is no death any more.

Another point worth considering and this time about the literal death of the righteous: If our spirit which comes from God is not within the body, it does not have any senses to experience life. Which no doubt is why the Bible calls physical death a sleep. But sleep does not mean that our mind is totally inactive. We can also pray while we sleep.

Paul did say that he preferred to be out of the body and present with the Lord.

This could be understood in two ways: That when our Spirit goes back to God we will be able to communicate with God. Or could mean that while we have body to express ourselves we are as though we sleep for we experience nothing and so when we next open our eyes it must be when we have been given a spiritual body. Thousands of years may have passed but we would not have noticed.

I used to think that the resurrected body of Christ was an example of the resurrected body of the righteous. I am begining to move away from that belief because Paul makes clear that he does not know exactly what sort of body we will receive except that it will be a spiritual body and therefore different from our earthly body. Jesus retained His human physical form after His resurrection even though it was glorified because the disciples could see the fresh scars in His hands and feet and side. I would hate to think that we will be resurrected with our last wounds incurred just before our death still fresh. That does not make sense in the light of the Word of God. How and when or what sort of body Christ will take on or has taken on I am not certain at all. What is certain that Christ was come to fulfil a specific function as a member of the human family, to allow the Father to put the kingdom of Satan under His feet. Perhaps He will retain His glorified humanity until just before the the second coming. At that time we certainly will receive a spiritual body while our earthly body of clay has totally integrated with the dust of this earth again. Or perhaps He took on a new spiritual body after His final ascension. Perhaps someone has more light on this subject. I also would like to look into the dividing line between what happened in AD 70 and the second coming. Or to be more precise to determine which prophecies speak about the literal second coming of Christ. Or do the prophecies that refer to AD 70 simply contain a picture and message for the world wide second coming? That could explain that not every prophecy in every detail at that time was completely fulfilled. I am beginning to realize that not many prophecies talk about the second coming and that most referred to AD 70. But I am also aware that there is going to come an end to this earth and earthly things and to sin, and a time when all things will be literally renewed. Is there a tread that deals with this subject?

Elisabeth

Abigail
01-09-2008, 02:21 AM
I am beginning to realize that not many prophecies talk about the second coming and that most referred to AD 70. But I am also aware that there is going to come an end to this earth and earthly things and to sin, and a time when all things will be literally renewed. Is there a tread that deals with this subject?

Elisabeth

Hi Elizabeth :)

If you look in the eschatology forum there is a lot of discussion about the book of Revelation at the moment etc, and if no thread deals with what you are specifically looking to discuss then feel free to start a new one :thumb:

Abigail

Ulfilas
01-27-2008, 03:48 PM
Greetings, all. I am new to forums [fori?] so please be tolerant. I did a word study on "aion" in college, and I wanted to interject here that to translate this word as "eternal", as in an unending succession of moments, is not scriptural. For one small example, check out Jude 7:

just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. [πυρος αιωνιου]

Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning?

Aion does not refer merely to time, but to a section of space/time the horizon of which is beyond human sight.

Jesus is Alive,
Ulfilas

Richard Amiel McGough
01-27-2008, 10:20 PM
Greetings, all. I am new to forums [fori?] so please be tolerant. I did a word study on "aion" in college, and I wanted to interject here that to translate this word as "eternal", as in an unending succession of moments, is not scriptural. For one small example, check out Jude 7:

just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. [πυρος αιωνιου]

Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning?

Aion does not refer merely to time, but to a section of space/time the horizon of which is beyond human sight.

Jesus is Alive,
Ulfilas
Hi Ulfilas,

Welcome to our forum!

:welcome:

I am very glad to have you here. We need as many folks familiar with Greek and Hebrew as possible to help clarify what God has given us in His Word. I agree that the word "aion" is poorly translated in many cases. Joel has brought up this issue a lot. Is your study available in electronic format? If so, feel free to start a thread and post it there.

Richard

alec cotton
04-16-2008, 01:32 PM
:yo:Are we overlooking something when we speak about eternity?. If there is any tomorrow in eternity then it is just a long time and not eternity. Time and space are curved. We say that time passes ,but in reality we pass through time. When we die we pass from time into eternity. Such a concept is so far beyond our personal experience that it is difficult for us to comprehend. One day when I was walking in the garden,I saw two caterpillars munching on a cabbage leaf. I fell to daydreaming and thought that these two might be engaged in conversation. One was a philosopher ,the other, a cynic. The philosopher was saying 'You know Fred, When we come to the end of our cabbage eating days,we don't really die. Oh! I know that when we creep into the secret place and tie the silken thread that we go all hard and stiff. But we are not really dead . After the long cold night of death , we wake up with long slender legs and gossamer wings .We float in the air and sip nectar for ever.' Fred looks up with his mouth full of cabbage and says.'Don't be daft, when you're dead you're done with'. I came back to reality and thought of the words ,'Eye has not seen nor ear heard,nor has it yet entered into the heart of man,the things which are prepared for those who love God.'. 'for this mortal must put on immortality'. ' We will have a body like unto his glorious body'. It does not yet appear what we shall be, but when He appears we will be like him.' I will be eternally grateful to Richard for creating this site. It is such a blessing to me.
God's richest blessing to you all.
Alec.

alec cotton
05-07-2008, 11:47 AM
I think we need to give each other a bit more grace when it comes to what certain words mean to each of us. Who amongst us can truly say we fully comprehend the meaning of words like eternity or forever; we can only hope to understand them by applying their meaning to the time frame of our life experiences.

The only way we can know what "Gods love" means is to relate it to the love we feel for our children or our spouse or parent. WE as humans are very limited in our ability to understand the quality's of words like "the Glory of God" and "Gods Righteousness" or terms like eternal and everlasting.

That is why God came to earth in human form so we could understand God in our realm of time.

2 Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

I believe the words that are used in the Bible are meant to be understood and applied to our concept of time, for there is no other way we as mortal humans can begin to grasp immortality or truly know what eternity means, if we don't apply them to this life, the most we can do is guess. I think words like eternal and everlasting are to be understood in light of what we know best....seeing through human eyes. God fully knows our limitations as humans, and that is why He sent the Holy Spirit to guide us in all truth.

The most we can hope for, is to understand God through the revelation of Jesus Christ given to us in the Bible.

My prayer is that God will open our eyes to a fuller understanding of His Word...:pray:

Rose
Hello Rose . I have been ploughing through these threads for ages and it feels like eternity. I like your thread best. You mention our concept of time and that seems to be key. Try this for size. Time is curved. It is in effect a circle. If we were to travel through time to infinity ,we would be where we are. Time is a dimention. I was going to ramble on but I won't. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. This day is yours .yesterday is dead. Tomorrow is yet to come. I will seek to live for him until he calls for me or comes for me. I pray that the living God will confer his blessing on all who share this site.
Alec

D'avid
08-01-2008, 01:30 PM
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting H5769 contempt.
H5769
עלם עולם ‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity;

This is an interesting subject when you consider that the concept of an eternal damnation is not new to the NT. Jesus stated the same thing 3 times in Mark’s Gospel.
I don’t think he intended it to be a big mystery, do you?

Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Eternity is a concept that we as humans are not capable of understanding since we live in the 'Time Space' realm. It’s like a fish trying to understand what it’s like to be a dog.
You can believe what you want but there are some things the Bible is very clear about hell & damnation is one of them. Salvation is another.
Sometimes you just have to let the Spirit of God speak in plain terms, not everything is a puzzle.
Shalom
Dave

Richard Amiel McGough
08-02-2008, 01:30 PM
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting H5769 contempt.
H5769
עלם עולם ‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity;

This is an interesting subject when you consider that the concept of an eternal damnation is not new to the NT. Jesus stated the same thing 3 times in Mark’s Gospel.
I don’t think he intended it to be a big mystery, do you?

Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Eternity is a concept that we as humans are not capable of understanding since we live in the “Time Space” realm. It’s like a fish trying to understand what it’s like to be a dog.
You can believe what you want but there are some things the Bible is very clear about hell & damnation is one of them. Salvation is another.
Sometimes you just have to let the Spirit of God speak in plain terms, not everything is a puzzle.
Shalom
Dave
Hello Dave!

This is my first post to you, so let me say, "Welcome to our forum!"

:welcome:

I'm not sure how to interpret your post. It seems that you are suggesting that the sentence fragment "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" implies an answer to the question of the eternal nature of hell.

The first problem is that the two words translated as "hell" in the NT mean "grave" (hades corresponding to the Hebrew sheol) and "burning garbage dump" (gehenna) which was in the valley bearing that name. Neither of these words suggest any continued existence of the bodies that were tossed therein. On the contrary, the one thing that graves and the burning garbage dump have in common is their ability to completely consume whatever was thrown in. Thus I understand the verse you triply cited as declaring the nature of the dump and its fire - that neither the "worm" nor the "fire" would end until it fulfilled its designated purpose, which is to consume the garbage thrown into it.

Whether that "garbage" is the sin or the sinner would make for an interesting conversation. If the former, then we behold a good purpose of hell - to destroy sin. If the latter, then we have the sad situation of God destroying rather than redeeming a part of His creation, but that's ok too if human freedom prohibits even God from sufficiently loving a person into salvation. But if we believe in the idea of a "perpetual burning" in "eternal conscious torment" of the garbage thrown into hell, then I see absolutely nothing "good" it all, and we are confronted with the question of why God would do evil for eternity.

As for the concept of "eternal damnation" - that is very different than the idea of an "unending continued existence in hell." The word "eternal" does not necessarily mean "unending time" but rather an "eon" or an "age." I find it ironic that the meaning most people attribute to it may well be exactly opposite of its true meaning. Also, judgment that is "of the olam" does not necessarily imply the continued existence of those subject to it. It is rather like "capital punishment" - it is the effect that is eternal, not the execution of the effect.

I look forward to discussing these very important questions with you.

Richard

D'avid
08-03-2008, 09:41 AM
As for the concept of "eternal damnation" - that is very different than the idea of an "unending continued existence in hell." The word "eternal" does not necessarily mean "unending time" but rather an "eon" or an "age." I find it ironic that the meaning most people attribute to it may well be exactly opposite of its true meaning. Also, judgment that is "of the olam" does not necessarily imply the continued existence of those subject to it. It is rather like "capital punishment" - it is the effect that is eternal, not the execution of the effect.

Hello Richard
It would be nice to think that there would be some reprieve from the torment of hell or the ultimate destiny of the unredeemed, "the lake of fire". But however there is no scriptural basis for that doctrine. To think that the fire of the final resting place of the devil and his angels will imitate the fire we know in our temporal existence makes no sense.
The book of revelation gives a bit of insight into the working of this fire;

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

These men are cast alive into the lake of fire and are not consumed by the flames;

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The "for ever and ever" implies a timeless state of existence that wont ever change. God is eternal & we are created in his image. On the last day all judgments will be final, it is sin that separates us from God and without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. The blood of Jesus was shed in this temporal world, all who leave this realm uncleansed and unwashed will remain that way forever.
We can twist the wording of God's word to suit most any notion we can conceive but it is the Spirit that gives life and teaches us truth. Those who face the second death will be tormented by their own sin according to the severity of their sin;
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
It is my opinion the the fire in the lake is the fire of Gods holiness and that the torment will come from the contrast between sin and holiness.
The stakes are more than high they are ultimate, all judgments final.
Shalom
Dave

Richard Amiel McGough
08-03-2008, 10:45 AM
As for the concept of "eternal damnation" - that is very different than the idea of an "unending continued existence in hell." The word "eternal" does not necessarily mean "unending time" but rather an "eon" or an "age." I find it ironic that the meaning most people attribute to it may well be exactly opposite of its true meaning. Also, judgment that is "of the olam" does not necessarily imply the continued existence of those subject to it. It is rather like "capital punishment" - it is the effect that is eternal, not the execution of the effect.

Hello Richard
It would be nice to think that there would be some reprieve from the torment of hell or the ultimate destiny of the unredeemed, "the lake of fire". But however there is no scriptural basis for that doctrine.

Hey there David,

I'm really glad you are pursuing this. I think these are very important questions.

Now as for the Biblical description of the ultimate fate of unbelivers, there are many verses that suggest annihilation rather than a continued existence in eternity. The most obvious is this:

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Note the parallel language:

Able to KILL the body, but not KILL the soul,
Able to DESTROY both body and soul in gehenna (the burning garbage pit).

What happens when a body is KILLED and DESTROYED? Does it continue to exist? To live? To have any kind of existence at all? Of couse not, especially after it has been burned in the garbage pit of gehenna. This verse literally states that God is able to kill and annihilate souls in "gehenna."


Folks who support the doctrine of eternal conscious torment in "gehenna" usually try to avoid the obvious implication of annihilation in this verse by denying that "destroy" means "annihilate" and asserting rather that it means "ruin." They certainly have some textual basis for this, but it is by no means a "proof" that they are correct. Here is how Strongs defines it:
απολλυμι apollumi {ap-ol'-loo-mee} from 575 and the base of 3639; TDNT - 1:394,67; v AV - perish 33, destroy 26, lose 22, be lost 5, lost 4, misc 2; 92 1) to destroy 1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin 1b) render useless 1c) to kill 1d) to declare that one must be put to death 1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell 1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed 2) to destroy 2a) to lose The most basic and literal meaning of "destroy" in the sense of "abolish" or "annihilate" - the other meanings that imply "ruin" with continued existence are metaphorical extensions of that basic meaning.

Now it is important to understand that Matt 10:28 does not settle the question - it is consistent with either interpretation. But it does prove that there are verses that may imply no continued existence after the final judgment.


There are many other verses that talk about the wicked being utterly consummed (annihilated):
Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Could anything be more explicit? The wicked will perish (abad) - here is Strongs definition:
אבד 'abad {aw-bad'} a primitive root; TWOT - 2; v AV - perish 98, destroy 62, lose 10, fail 2, surely 2, utterly 2, broken 1, destruction 1, escape 1, flee 1, spendeth 1, take 1, undone 1, void 1; 184 1) perish, vanish, go astray, be destroyed 1a) (Qal) 1a1) perish, die, be exterminated 1a2) perish, vanish (fig.) 1a3) be lost, strayed 1b) (Piel) 1b1) to destroy, kill, cause to perish, to give up (as lost), exterminate 1b2) to blot out, do away with, cause to vanish, (fig.) 1b3) cause to stray, lose 1c) (Hiphil) 1c1) to destroy, put to death 1c1a) of divine judgment 1c2) object name of kings (fig.) The Hebrew abad is pretty much equivalent to the Greek appolumi. They both carry the sense of annihilate. Thus we have biblical support for the doctrine of annihilation. Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying that this is the true doctrine - only that we must admit that it has some support from Scripture. To determine the true doctrine will require further study and comparison of Scripture with Scripture, of course.



To think that the fire of the final resting place of the devil and his angels will imitate the fire we know in our temporal existence makes no sense.
The book of revelation gives a bit of insight into the working of this fire;

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

These men are cast alive into the lake of fire and are not consumed by the flames;

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

That idea is not actually in the text. It was added by the translator. The word "are" is not in the original text. The verse could just as well read "wherea the beast and the false prophet were" which is how David Aune, one of the most promient scholars specializing in the Book of Revelation, translated it in his massive three volume commentary. We also see this translation in a few modern English versions such as the RSV and NIV:

RSV Revelation 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

NIV Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The point here is that the translation depends on the preconceived notions of the translator, since the text does not contain any form of the verb "to be." Thus, Scripture does not tell us whether the beast and the false prophet were consumed by the fires or not. But if not, then we have an apparent contradiction with the verses that say the wicked would be consumed in the fire of God's judgment.



The "for ever and ever" implies a timeless state of existence that wont ever change. God is eternal & we are created in his image. On the last day all judgments will be final, it is sin that separates us from God and without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. The blood of Jesus was shed in this temporal world, all who leave this realm uncleansed and unwashed will remain that way forever.

Is there any basis for that doctrine in the Bible? I am not aware of a single verses that suggests, let alone proves, that there is no hope for a soul after physical death. And I am very confident that you will not find one, because I have listened to teachers for many years attempt to justify that doctrine, and they NEVER find any Scripture to support it. Indeed, they only verse they even attempt to use is Hebrew 9:27, but that is obviously insufficient because it says nothing about what happens between death and the judgment.



We can twist the wording of God's word to suit most any notion we can conceive but it is the Spirit that gives life and teaches us truth.

That is correct. All humans are quite able to twist Scripture. You as well as I. Therefore, we are commanded by God to test all things, and to avoid elevating our own personal opinions the status of divine truth received directly from the Spirit of God (which would kinda short circuit the process). If either of us is "twisting Scripture" it will become clear when one of us continues to hold an opinion after being shown that it is not supported by Scripture.

Many blessings to you David. I want you to know how much I appreciate your efforts to discuss these things with me.

Richard

Gospel of Peace
08-21-2008, 09:12 PM
Just a few of the passages I've found on this subject. (I believe in what is called Universal Reconciliation)

Psalm 22:27
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto YAHUAH: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before Thee.

Psalm 65:2-3

Psalm 66:3-4

Psalm 72:18-19

Psalm 86:9

Psalm 138:4-5

Psalm 145:9-17

Isaiah 2:2

Isaiah 25:6-8

Isaiah 45:22-25

Isaiah 46:10-11

Jeremiah 32:42

Lamentations 3:31-33

Daniel 4:35

Matthew 13:33

Mark 9:49

Luke 2:10

Luke 2:14

Luke 3:6

John 1:9

John 1:16

John 1:29

John 4:42

John 12:32-33

John 12:47

Acts 3:20-21

Romans 5:18-20

Romans 8:20-21

Romans 8:32

Romans 11:15

Romans 11:26-27

Romans 11:32-36

Romans 14:17-19

1 Corinthians 3:15

1 Corinthians 4:5

1 Corinthians 12:3

1 Corinthians 15:22-28

2 Corinthians 5:15-19

Ephesians 1:9-11

Ephesians 2:7

Ephesians 4:10

Philippians 2:10-11

Colossions 1:16-20

1 Timothy 2:3-6

1 Timothy 4:9-11

Titus 2:11

Hebrews 8:11-12

Hebrews 9:26

1 John 2:2

1 John 4:10-14

Jude 1:3

Revelation 5:13

Revelation 15:4

Revelation 21:4

Richard Amiel McGough
08-21-2008, 09:48 PM
Just a few of the passages I've found on this subject. (I believe in what is called Universal Reconciliation)

Psalm 22:27
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto YAHUAH: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before Thee.

Hey there Gospel of Peace,

Welcome to our forum!

:welcome:

I too believe that God is able to redeem all His creation, just as He said He would. :sunny: But I'm not settled on the possibility of annihilation of the wicked, since there are many verses that talk about that too. So I'm still agnostic about this detail. But I am absolutely convinced that the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment is false and unbiblical.


Thanks for the verses. They are so very good ... I think I'll take a minute to flesh them out a bit ...
Psalm 65:2-3 O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come. 3 Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away.

In Hebrew, the phrase "all flesh" is kol basar. We find this phrase repeatedly in the Rainbow Covenant:
Genesis 9:11-15 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. 12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. 14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: 15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

And again in the great prophecy of the Gospel:
Isaiah 40:3-5 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

And again in the great prophecy of Pentecost when God poured out His Spirit:
Joel 2:28-29 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Well, I'd love to walk through them all, but I've got some other stuff I need to do right now.

Talk more soon,

Richard

Gospel of Peace
08-22-2008, 07:45 AM
Thank you for the quick response, Richard. :D

I can relate with you, I had moved on from believing in eternal torment to believing in eternal death.. there were a few things which convinced me that YAHUAH our Savior (I call Him by this Name for now) will save all men. In Scriptures, a very close examination of 1 Corinthians 15:22. Outside Scriptures, a series of visions and answered prayers.. involving certain militant atheist friends of mine I was much concerned for.

The more I learn about Him, the more I discover the Gospel as I know it to be to be great, and the doctrine of eternal torment to be pagan and full of wicked fruits.

If you want to know some more about me, other than that I am a 'Christian Universalist' by label.. I could also be classified as a geocentrist, charismatic, and someone who considers himself to be a wicked sinner almost all the time. (Except when I put to death the flesh and put on the Messiah)

I'm travelling through the valley of the shadow of death, longing to be in the manifest presence of our Savior.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Peace be with you.

Richard Amiel McGough
08-22-2008, 08:40 AM
Thank you for the quick response, Richard. :D

I can relate with you, I had moved on from believing in eternal torment to believing in eternal death.. there were a few things which convinced me that YAHUAH our Savior (I call Him by this Name for now) will save all men. In Scriptures, a very close examination of 1 Corinthians 15:22. Outside Scriptures, a series of visions and answered prayers.. involving certain militant atheist friends of mine I was much concerned for.

The more I learn about Him, the more I discover the Gospel as I know it to be to be great, and the doctrine of eternal torment to be pagan and full of wicked fruits.

If you want to know some more about me, other than that I am a 'Christian Universalist' by label.. I could also be classified as a geocentrist, charismatic, and someone who considers himself to be a wicked sinner almost all the time. (Except when I put to death the flesh and put on the Messiah)

I'm travelling through the valley of the shadow of death, longing to be in the manifest presence of our Savior.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Peace be with you.
Hey there my friend,

It is good to be getting to know you. And now you have piqued my curiosity. Could you explain more about what it means to be a "geocentrist"?

Richard

Gospel of Peace
08-22-2008, 08:54 AM
In brief, that the earth as motionless. The sun, moon, stars, etc. are in motion around us. There are several reasons I believe this, primarily Scriptural, with perhaps the best example being the account of Joshua commanding the sun and moon to stand still. Others, such as the creation account revealing that the sun was created after the earth. All Scriptural references on the subject reveal that the earth is not moving, and describe the motion of the sun around us. Geocentrism, when proven, casts down the imaginations of the 'big bang' and 'evolution' theories, and gives a lot more credit to the creation account given by YAHUAH to Moses.

I didn't really come here to dispute doubtful things, however.. I'm growing weary of arguing things with people.. I just want to present my viewpoints as possibilities one might consider looking into.

Peace.

Richard Amiel McGough
08-22-2008, 09:32 AM
In brief, that the earth as motionless. The sun, moon, stars, etc. are in motion around us. There are several reasons I believe this, primarily Scriptural, with perhaps the best example being the account of Joshua commanding the sun and moon to stand still. Others, such as the creation account revealing that the sun was created after the earth. All Scriptural references on the subject reveal that the earth is not moving, and describe the motion of the sun around us. Geocentrism, when proven, casts down the imaginations of the 'big bang' and 'evolution' theories, and gives a lot more credit to the creation account given by YAHUAH to Moses.

I didn't really come here to dispute doubtful things, however.. I'm growing weary of arguing things with people.. I just want to present my viewpoints as possibilities one might consider looking into.

Peace.
Thanks for explaining that to me. I see many problems with the ideas you present but will withhold further comment since you made it clear that you do not want to "dispute doubtful things." I hope you feel at home here to express your ideas if you ever want to discuss them and explore how they look to other folks.

Many blessings.

Richard

Gospel of Peace
08-22-2008, 10:02 AM
Thank you for the welcome.

Some time when I am not so tired, I'd like to have a meaningful discussion with you on these subjects.

I've been in heated discussions recently over the issue of God's Name, and it got to be quite tiresome. I never knew such a discussion could turn so nasty.. :confused2:

For now, I will rest and just take a look around

:pop2:

When I'm done, I'll start a topic on the subject of geocentric theory vs heliocentric theory and we can examine them there if you like.

Peace.

Richard Amiel McGough
08-22-2008, 10:26 AM
Thank you for the welcome.

Some time when I am not so tired, I'd like to have a meaningful discussion with you on these subjects.

I've been in heated discussions recently over the issue of God's Name, and it got to be quite tiresome. I never knew such a discussion could turn so nasty.. :confused2:

For now, I will rest and just take a look around

:pop2:

When I'm done, I'll start a topic on the subject of geocentric theory vs heliocentric theory and we can examine them there if you like.

Peace.
I certainly understand how exhausting it can be to talk and talk and feel like you never get anywhere but only go in endless circles. My inclination is to reject specualation and to seek to see "eye-to-eye" with my partners in the discussion so we can first establish what we really can know with certaninty, and then we can narrow down the converstation to the precise point on which we differ. In my view, this is the only way to advance towards truth in online conversations. The unfortunate fact is that most folks don't seem to want the truth, but rather to support preexisting ideas, many of which are based on nothing but ignorance, prejudice, and personal predilections (how they would like things to be).

I look forward to when you feel rested and moved from within to enter into conversation with us.

Richard

gregoryfl
08-22-2008, 03:57 PM
I tried twice to post something but it kept saying I was not logged in, so I lost all that typing. :(

Of course, now it posts. GRRRR. Sigh. Oh well.

gregoryfl
08-22-2008, 04:03 PM
I'll just be brief I guess so I don't get logged out again and lose it all. What if it is not actually the wicked person who is destroyed, burned up, done away with by the symbolic fire, but the wickedness in them, that part of them blinding them to who God truly is, that part of man keeping him in his mind separated from God? I do happen to belief in the restoration of all things, and this is how I have come to understand what scripture means when it speaks of the wicked being burned up and destroyed.

Ron

Gospel of Peace
08-23-2008, 02:54 PM
I used to be one of the followers of this group-

www.atruechurch.info (scary)

How different are my beliefs now-

www.myspace.com/john1335 (My page)

Here are some resources I wish I had found earlier, but I'm glad to have found now:

www.absolute-reconciliation.org
www.angelfire.com/dc/universalism/home.html
www.apocatastasis.org/index.html
www.ariseministry.coml
www.askelm.com/index.asp
www.auburn.edu/~allenkc
www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univart.html
www.bible-truths.com
www.biblicaluniversalist.com
www.caught.net/richard/universalsalvation.htm
www.christian-universalism.com
www.christianuniversalist.org
www.churchinthenow.org/home/home.asp
www.clccnet.org/about.html
www.completerestorationinchrist.com
www.concordant.org
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal-reconciliation
www.enduring-grace.com
www.eschatology.org
www.fullyhuman.wordpress.com
www.godoftheages.com
www.gods-kingdom.org
www.godislovehellisnot.com
www.gospelfortoday.org
www.gospelrevolution.com
www.graceevangel.org
www.greater-emmanuel.org
www.haroldlovelace.com
www.hearingthetruthofgod.com
www.hometown.aol.com/janilen/john/john.html
www.hopebeyondhell.net
www.imrestored.com
www.indianhillschurch.org
www.jswc.org
www.lrchomechurches.com
www.martinzender.com
www.mercifultruth.com
www.newdimensions.us
www.ontherock.net
pantheon.yale.edu/~kd47/univ.htm
www.preterism-eschatology.com
www.purposeoflife.org.uk/index.htm
www.redeeminglove.biz/index.htm
www.robertrutherford.org
www.rockfellowship.com
www.savior-of-all.com
www.scaredofhell.com
www.sigler.org
www.sigler.org/doyle
www.sigler.org/eby
www.sigler.org/walter
www.sozoproductions.org/
www.streamsoftruth.com
www.studentoftheword.com
www.tentmaker.org
www.tentmaker.org/topics/biblicaluniversalism.html
www.thehouseofthelord.com
www.thelifexchange.org
www.truth-over-tradition.com
www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com
www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/theol.html

Peace be with you.

gregoryfl
08-23-2008, 04:03 PM
Gospel of Peace,

I am familiar with that website and what he teaches. So were you actually part of the group, or did you just believe what they taught?

I have gone through quite a bit of change myself over the years in what I have come to believe. We hold to similar views regarding the Mighty One's name and his son, as well, at least to some extent, the restoration of all things.

Some of what I wrote concerning the duration of the lake of fire I posted elsewhere but I wish I had seen this thread. I could have put it here instead of starting a new topic. Oh well.

Ron

Richard Amiel McGough
08-23-2008, 05:38 PM
I used to be one of the followers of this group-

www.atruechurch.info (http://www.atruechurch.info) (scary)

How different are my beliefs now-

www.myspace.com/john1335 (http://www.myspace.com/john1335) (My page)

Here are some resources I wish I had found earlier, but I'm glad to have found now:

www.absolute-reconciliation.org (http://www.absolute-reconciliation.org)
www.angelfire.com/dc/universalism/home.html (http://www.angelfire.com/dc/universalism/home.html)
www.apocatastasis.org/index.html (http://www.apocatastasis.org/index.html)
www.ariseministry.coml (http://www.ariseministry.coml)
www.askelm.com/index.asp (http://www.askelm.com/index.asp)
www.auburn.edu/~allenkc (http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc)
www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univart.html (http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univart.html)
www.bible-truths.com (http://www.bible-truths.com)
www.biblicaluniversalist.com (http://www.biblicaluniversalist.com)
www.caught.net/richard/universalsalvation.htm (http://www.caught.net/richard/universalsalvation.htm)
www.christian-universalism.com (http://www.christian-universalism.com)
www.christianuniversalist.org (http://www.christianuniversalist.org)
www.churchinthenow.org/home/home.asp (http://www.churchinthenow.org/home/home.asp)
www.clccnet.org/about.html (http://www.clccnet.org/about.html)
www.completerestorationinchrist.com (http://www.completerestorationinchrist.com)
www.concordant.org (http://www.concordant.org)
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal-reconciliation (http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal-reconciliation)
www.enduring-grace.com (http://www.enduring-grace.com)
www.eschatology.org (http://www.eschatology.org)
www.fullyhuman.wordpress.com (http://www.fullyhuman.wordpress.com)
www.godoftheages.com (http://www.godoftheages.com)
www.gods-kingdom.org (http://www.gods-kingdom.org)
www.godislovehellisnot.com (http://www.godislovehellisnot.com)
www.gospelfortoday.org (http://www.gospelfortoday.org)
www.gospelrevolution.com (http://www.gospelrevolution.com)
www.graceevangel.org (http://www.graceevangel.org)
www.greater-emmanuel.org (http://www.greater-emmanuel.org)
www.haroldlovelace.com (http://www.haroldlovelace.com)
www.hearingthetruthofgod.com (http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com)
www.hometown.aol.com/janilen/john/john.html (http://www.hometown.aol.com/janilen/john/john.html)
www.hopebeyondhell.net (http://www.hopebeyondhell.net)
www.imrestored.com (http://www.imrestored.com)
www.indianhillschurch.org (http://www.indianhillschurch.org)
www.jswc.org (http://www.jswc.org)
www.lrchomechurches.com (http://www.lrchomechurches.com)
www.martinzender.com (http://www.martinzender.com)
www.mercifultruth.com (http://www.mercifultruth.com)
www.newdimensions.us (http://www.newdimensions.us)
www.ontherock.net (http://www.ontherock.net)
pantheon.yale.edu/~kd47/univ.htm
www.preterism-eschatology.com (http://www.preterism-eschatology.com)
www.purposeoflife.org.uk/index.htm (http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/index.htm)
www.redeeminglove.biz/index.htm (http://www.redeeminglove.biz/index.htm)
www.robertrutherford.org (http://www.robertrutherford.org)
www.rockfellowship.com (http://www.rockfellowship.com)
www.savior-of-all.com (http://www.savior-of-all.com)
www.scaredofhell.com (http://www.scaredofhell.com)
www.sigler.org (http://www.sigler.org)
www.sigler.org/doyle (http://www.sigler.org/doyle)
www.sigler.org/eby (http://www.sigler.org/eby)
www.sigler.org/walter (http://www.sigler.org/walter)
www.sozoproductions.org/ (http://www.sozoproductions.org/)
www.streamsoftruth.com (http://www.streamsoftruth.com)
www.studentoftheword.com (http://www.studentoftheword.com)
www.tentmaker.org (http://www.tentmaker.org)
www.tentmaker.org/topics/biblicaluniversalism.html (http://www.tentmaker.org/topics/biblicaluniversalism.html)
www.thehouseofthelord.com (http://www.thehouseofthelord.com)
www.thelifexchange.org (http://www.thelifexchange.org)
www.truth-over-tradition.com (http://www.truth-over-tradition.com)
www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com (http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com)
www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/theol.html (http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/theol.html)

Peace be with you.
I haven't had time yet to check out all those links, but the ones I looked are truly excellent. It is time to preach the GOSPEL of God's Love and the reconciliation of all men that He has achieved through Christ, especially those who believe.

I'll review them more as time permits.

Richard

Gospel of Peace
08-24-2008, 02:57 AM
Here's a better version of the above list:

www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univart.html
www.bible-truths.com
www.biblicaluniversalist.com
www.christian-universalism.com
www.christianuniversalist.org
www.godislovehellisnot.com
www.hopebeyondhell.net
www.iswasandwillbe.com
www.martinzender.com
www.mercifultruth.com
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~kd47/univ.htm
www.savior-of-all.com
www.scaredofhell.com
www.sozoproductions.org/
www.tentmaker.org
www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com

Peace.

Gospel of Peace
08-24-2008, 03:24 AM
Gospel of Peace,

I am familiar with that website and what he teaches. So were you actually part of the group, or did you just believe what they taught?

I have gone through quite a bit of change myself over the years in what I have come to believe. We hold to similar views regarding the Mighty One's name and his son, as well, at least to some extent, the restoration of all things.

Some of what I wrote concerning the duration of the lake of fire I posted elsewhere but I wish I had seen this thread. I could have put it here instead of starting a new topic. Oh well.

Ron

I just followed their teachings for a few months, talked with them over the phone and online. I kept having problems with things they were saying.. and when I would pray and read the Bible while talking with them on the phone, continually I would find Scriptures which said things contrary to what they were saying.. and when I would point those things out, I'd hear that I'm a wicked liar deceiving people and sending them to hell.. this went on for quite a while.. really made me desperate.. because I believed them.. I sought God and struggled with 'losing my salvation' for about 6 months. Then one day while I was talking with one of their leaders on the phone, finding more things contrary to their message.. I found a verse that said something to the effect of 'lying lips (or tongue) being put to silence' in the psalms or proverbs or something.. and I didn't hear a word from him after that, he kept coughing and couldn't talk. Then not too long after that, I had my first vision, and I saw something that I couldn't understand at the end of the vision, everyone I had ever known and a lot more people I couldn't count along with some of my 'evangelical atheist' friends, including my best friend who had said that he would rather burn in hell for eternity than believe in Jesus.. I saw them with their faces full of joy, anticipating the coming of the Bridegroom.

I didn't understand that, or even consider it for nearly a year. But yeah, I am familiar with the teachings of ATC. I dislike their message, but I think they're a great example of what believing in eternal torment can do to people. It was horrifying to me, so much torment while I was in absolute sorrow for all the people of the world.. thinking that only a small, small handful would be saved.. quite depressing.

Now I'm of the opinion that it's our duty, task, honor.. to bring the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth now. That we should be living for the hungry, the poor, the weak, the sick, the lame, the blind, the deaf, the orphans and widows.. that when we do unto them as we would that God do unto us.. and we put on His character.. that's when we're in the Kingdom of Heaven. I don't know what to make about after death and resurrection stuff.. I do believe in resurrections, and the resurrection of both the just and unjust.. but I don't speculate much on 'rewards and punishments' anymore.. I think we're supposed to be actually going out and living the LIFE when and while we are able.

Peace be with you.

gregoryfl
08-24-2008, 08:10 AM
Mat 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing floor. He will gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.'

Rev 14:19 The messenger thrust his sickle into the land, and gathered the grapes of the land, and threw them into the great winepress of the wrath of the Mighty One
Rev 14:20 The winepress was trampled outside of the city, and blood came out from the winepress, even to the bridles of the horses, as far as one thousand six hundred stadia.

1Co 5:5 are to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Master Yahushua.

1Co 3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss. However he himself will be delivered, but as through fire.

While these are speaking of slightly different things, they do have a commonality:

The chaff is part of the wheat, but not the wheat itself. The wineskin is part of the grape, but not the grape itself. The work of man is part of the man, but not the man himself. The flesh is part of man, but not the man himself. These verses more clearly define to me exactly what it is that is burned up by fire.

God is after the wheat, the juice of the grape, the spirit, the person themselves. All of that for every man which is not of God is done away with, destroyed.

This has already been accomplished by the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Now as we each live our lives, that which has been finished is being revealed in us.

Ron

gregoryfl
01-24-2009, 08:46 PM
Here are some further thoughts to consider, along with the post I gave a while back, cited just above:

I think of a controlled forest burn. That portion of land is burned. Is the land annihilated? No. The seed in the ground is preserved safe, but what is consumed and perished is extra undesired overgrowth of plant material. We would say that the land was burned, yet from that cleansing burn a new forest emerges over time. The reason a farmer burns a field that is useless is so that it can be made useful for growing plants again. That is how it is with God. We are the land, and the undesired overgrowth is any wood, hay, stubble that we build with, and it is the wickedness of people who do not presently know the Lord. As we all go through that consuming fire from the Lord, he burns away all of that which is spoken of as the flesh. The seed that has been planted in each of us remains safe, and from that seed our new life is revealed over time as we grow in him.

When something burns in a fire, it is not annihilated. It is changed. This is scientific fact. You burn a log and while the log will cease to exist as a log, it itself still exists, only it exists in another form now, because the fire changed its composition.

When scripture speaks about the wicked being burned up, being no more, etc, it is speaking about the person as connected to his wickedness. That wickedness will be burned up, will exist no more, even though the fire is applied to the person. He himself will be saved, just as the land that is burned is still there. Just as the earth that perished by water was still there, only the wickedness was removed.

gregoryfl
02-22-2009, 05:04 AM
I posted this a while ago and thought it would be good to resurrect this post again. What do you all think about the last 2 posts shared? I think they shed much needed light on this subject of how it is the the wicked are destroyed yet all come to salvation in Christ.

Rose
02-22-2009, 10:48 AM
Hi Ron, very thought provoking post.

I think that the same idea is present in what Peter is speaking of in his second Epistle.
2Peter 3:7-10 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The elements of the Old Law is what is dissolved by fire....God is a consuming fire, evil cannot stand in His presence. It is the works that defines evil, as it is with those who are without the gates of the New Jerusalem.
Rev. 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Those who do all manner of evil works are the ones who are outside the city, they cannot enter in even though the gates are always open....only those who partake of the living water of Christ can enter through.

God Bless

Rose

alec cotton
02-24-2009, 12:25 PM
Well now! Thanks Geoffrey! I did want to discuss this.



But we'll see ... maybe I have missed something important, and someone on the forum will show me how the Bible really does teach that God casts sinners into a hell of eternal conscious torment.

Richard
Let's apply a little logic then. Luke 12.47 says the servant who new his masters will and did not do it will be beaten with many stripes. that indicates different degrees of punishment. If it is a case of one size fits all then the liar ,the petty thief and the mass murdrer/torturer get the same punishment. Will not the judge of all the earth do right?. If hell is not eternal then heaven is not either. It is just a long time. The only way that eternity can be described is a circle. Ecc.1.9 "The thing that hath been ,it is that which shall be;and that which is done is that which shall be done:and there is no new thing under the sun". The word is true or false . there are degrees of punishment or none. To the man who has had a soft life, the thought of death is terrifying , but to the man who has endured hardship ,pain and cruelty , Death,even eternal death is a blessed relief.
Alec

joel
02-24-2009, 03:58 PM
If hell is not eternal then heaven is not either.

II Peter 3.......heaven(s) will pass away.....and the earth will burned up.......the creation as it now exists will be replaced by a new creation which we who are called now are able to be linked to it now........all things pass away, all things become new.

Joel

Richard Amiel McGough
02-24-2009, 05:00 PM
Let's apply a little logic then. Luke 12.47 says the servant who new his masters will and did not do it will be beaten with many stripes. that indicates different degrees of punishment. If it is a case of one size fits all then the liar ,the petty thief and the mass murdrer/torturer get the same punishment. Will not the judge of all the earth do right?.

Hi Alec,

I agree that the Bible says that there will be different degrees of punishment, but that can be true without suggesting the idea of eternal conscious torment. Indeed, it seems that eternal conscious torment would mean that all sinners suffer the "same amount" since both all would suffer infinitely. Is it "right" or "just" that a person suffer infinitely for a finite crime? The punishment should fit the crime, should it not? And so I repeat your question to you - will not the judge of all the earth do right?



If hell is not eternal then heaven is not either. It is just a long time.
I don't agree with the assertion that "If hell is not eternal then heaven is not either." Capital punishment, in which the soul that sins truly "dies" (Rom 6:23) and is "destroyed in hell" (Matt 10:28) has received punishment that "lasts forever" and so is "eternal." Likewise, the soul that is reconciled to God through Christ has received "eternal life" that never ends.



If hell is not eternal then heaven is not either. It is just a long time. The only way that eternity can be described is a circle. Ecc.1.9 "The thing that hath been ,it is that which shall be;and that which is done is that which shall be done:and there is no new thing under the sun". The word is true or false . there are degrees of punishment or none. To the man who has had a soft life, the thought of death is terrifying , but to the man who has endured hardship ,pain and cruelty , Death,even eternal death is a blessed relief.
Alec
I don't know if "the only way that eternity can be describes is a circle." Eternity is beyond our comprehension, and the words that the Bible uses (olam, aionion) do not generally mean "eternal" in the modern sense that we are familiar with. I think we need to start humbly on this question. Some people think eternity means "time without end" and others think it means "beyond time altogether" and there are many times in the Bible that "for ever" means "as long as the subject exists." For example, when Hannah gave Samuel to serve in Tabernacle, she said that he would abide there "for ever" = "as long as he liveth":

1 Samuel 1:22,28 But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD, and there abide for ever. ... 28 Therefore also I have lent him to the LORD; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the LORD. And he worshipped the LORD there.
Richard

English_Jean
03-07-2009, 04:53 PM
Hello everyone,

I'm new here but I've been a lurker on this site for quite a few years an enjoyed it immensely.:)

This thread reminded me of a pamphlet by Peter Bluer.
http://www.biblemaths.com/lucifer.pdf

In part - scroll down to pages 42-44 - it addresses the question of hell and eternal punishment. His work was prompted on hearing a radio programme when the interviewee said, '...he did accept the concept of punishment for evil-doers, but he still could not believe that God would punish these sinners, forever and ever in conscious torment.'

I'd be interested to read your comments.

Jean

joel
03-16-2009, 07:10 AM
Jean,

Paul, the apostle to the nations, presented a fact concerning an event in the future;

Romans 2:5.......the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God.

This event, according to Paul, will be a "payment" for work done.

This event has not occurred. It will be God's wrath upon the "soul of man" (vs. 9) for those who practice evil......and glory, honor and peach to those who worketh good (vs. 10).

Paul teaches later in the letter.....Ch 3.....that faith in the blood of Christ places the justified one under the blood.........therefore, a member of the body of Christ will not be subject to the judgment of that day is vs. 5.

The chastisement of that day, as explained by Christ in the gospels, has an "aionios" duration. Which does not mean "eternal" as has been erroneously reported.

Christ's sacrifice and subsequent victory are total and complete for all.

God is working out the victory over the span of the remaining "eons" (aionios chronos).....the time within the eons........at the consummation....Christ's victory will pervade the entire creation.......every knee shall bow, and every tongue tongue confess that He is the Christ to the glory of the Father.

Joel

Rose
03-16-2009, 08:52 AM
Hi All,

The way that I see it is that the New Testament speaks of only ONE Judgment Day, when the Old was judged and destroyed by fire. That Day is called by many names.

1)Day of Judgment
2)Day of the Lord
3)Day of God
4)Great and notable Day of the Lord
5)Judgment seat of Christ
6)Great white Throne Judgment…….and more.

That Judgment Day occurred when God poured out His wrath on His apostate wife, 'Israel' and brought down every last stone of the Temple in 70 AD. The Old was judged and destroyed by fire (symbolically cast into the lake of fire), called by the Apostle Peter 'the melting of the elements', at which time a new heaven, and earth fully came into being (the New Jerusalem).

Revelation symbolically presents us with that picture as 'the smoke of her (Old Jerusalem) burning' rising up to heaven, after which we see 'the marriage of the Lamb' followed by NEW JERUSALEM descending from heaven as a glorious Bride (the Church).

From that point on the Church age began, with the body of Christ being the New Jerusalem….. whereas all those who are not part of the body of Christ remain outside 'the gates of the city', but at anytime may partake of the living water within if they so choose.
Rev. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The Old has already been cast into "the Lake of Fire", death has been conquered by Christ.....THERE IS NO ETERNAL TORMENT IN HELL, all that remains now is for each individual to choose the way of TRUTH by drinking of the water of life, and for each man to stand before Christ individually and be judged according to their works.


God Bless,

Rose

D.Thume
10-26-2009, 12:47 PM
Well this may be a problematic question for the dantaes inferno view, but it wouldnt be near as bad if Hell is an eternal incarceration for the wicked. I can enjoy the peace of God that passes all understanding, and yet a close friend is in prison and will be for some time. John writes that in heaven we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is 1 John 3:2, so perhaps we will be fully satisfied that God is perfectly just and merciful, and that He gave every individual the opportunity to accept or reject Him. However He works it out, God promises that there will not be sorrow or crying in heaven. Our focus in heaven won’t be on our loss, but on our gain.


As for the ones I didnt touch on, I cant say that I can speak much of them. What do you think of what I did say father of five? I do understand where you are coming from as far as the inferno view of hell. It just doesnt seem appropriate if it is for all eternity.

Abigail
10-27-2009, 02:47 AM
[/I][/INDENT]The Old has already been cast into "the Lake of Fire", death has been conquered by Christ.....THERE IS NO ETERNAL TORMENT IN HELL, all that remains now is for each individual to choose the way of TRUTH by drinking of the water of life, and for each man to stand before Christ individually and be judged according to their works.


God Bless,

Rose

Hi Rose

What then happens to those who do not choose Truth or whose work is judged as being wicked ?

Abigail

gregoryfl
10-27-2009, 04:56 AM
Hi Rose

What then happens to those who do not choose Truth or whose work is judged as being wicked ?

Abigail

Abigail,

The same thing that happened to Saul. Saul's works were wicked, and he hated the Truth so much that he sought passionately to destroy any who named His name. That man Saul was destroyed by the presence of Jesus, so that the man Paul could be born, one who would choose Truth.

For every man, the flesh must be destroyed because all flesh, including yours and mine, can never choose Truth, and it's works can only be wicked. That is the chaff that must be sifted from the wheat. Yet thankfully there is more, for our spirit will be saved. That is the wheat God is after.

Ron

CWH
10-27-2009, 06:34 AM
Now who chose who? Did Saul chose Jesus or did Jesus chose Saul? Jesus Chose Saul to be an apostle to the Gentiles:

Acts 9
1Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.

"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

10In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"
"Yes, Lord," he answered.

11The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."

13"Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name."

15But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."


Many Blessings to you.

Rose
10-27-2009, 07:36 AM
Now who chose who? Did Saul chose Jesus or did Jesus chose Saul? Jesus Chose Saul to be an apostle to the Gentiles:

Acts 9
1Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.

"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

10In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"
"Yes, Lord," he answered.

11The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."

13"Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name."

15But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."


Many Blessings to you.

Hi Cheow,

God chose Saul knowing he would choose Jesus, but first Jesus spoke to him and his eyes were blinded so he could see the Truth. It was still Saul's choice to follow Jesus, as is the case with us all. God wakes us up to His Truth, but we still chose to follow.

God Bless

Rose

Rose
10-27-2009, 07:45 AM
Hi Rose

What then happens to those who do not choose Truth or whose work is judged as being wicked ?

Abigail

Hi Abigail,

I would say all eventually choose Truth, but in the meantime the ones who do not are those in Revelation who are outside the gates. At any time they may choose to drink of the living water flowing from within that is offered to all, and enter in.
Rev.21:6 And He said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev.22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God Bless

Rose

CWH
10-27-2009, 08:44 AM
Hi Cheow,

God chose Saul knowing he would choose Jesus, but first Jesus spoke to him and his eyes were blinded so he could see the Truth. It was still Saul's choice to follow Jesus, as is the case with us all. God wakes us up to His Truth, but we still chose to follow.

God Bless

Rose

Hi Rose,

if Jesus had not chose Saul first, would Saul have chosen Jesus? I think Saul will continue to persecute Christians thinking he was doing good for the nation and for everybody. Jesus purposely chose the great Christian persecutor Saul so that the glory of God could be manifested in him and Saul would one day become one of the greatest apostle of all times. saul would then realized the folly of his ways. Even the 12 apostles were chosen by Him and not the other way round:

John 15:13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

If Christ have not chosen us first, would we have chosen Christ? If Christ have not love us first and died for our sins, would we have come to Christ?

Amen and Many Blessings to all.

Rose
10-27-2009, 09:04 AM
Hi Rose,

if Jesus had not chose Saul first, would Saul have chosen Jesus? I think Saul will continue to persecute Christians thinking he was doing good for the nation and for everybody. Jesus purposely chose the great Christian persecutor Saul so that the glory of God could be manifested in him and Saul would one day become one of the greatest apostle of all times. saul would then realized the folly of his ways. Even the 12 apostles were chosen by Him and not the other way round:

John 15:13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

If Christ have not chosen us first, would we have chosen Christ? If Christ have not love us first and died for our sins, would we have come to Christ?

Amen and Many Blessings to all.

Hi Cheow,

It's hard to answer that question because God knows the beginning from the end, so one can say that the reason God chose whom He chose is because he knew they would answer His call. Though of course if Christ had not come, we could not have chosen Him, but since Christ was slain from the foundation of the world, and God sees all things already done, He knows whom to chose to fulfill His plan.

Rose

gregoryfl
10-27-2009, 12:18 PM
Cheow,

It is definitely important to understand who chose who first. Why does anyone choose God? Is it because some are just a little smarter or wiser than others? You asked if anyone would choose God if he had not chosen them? I believe no one would. Until God brought us to life, we were dead in our trespasses, and in the flesh, flesh which will not choose Him. It is only by being born from above, given new life, which is solely by God, that anyone then awakened from the sleep of death will choose the one who chose them.

Ron

alec cotton
10-27-2009, 12:39 PM
Greetings to all my brothers and sisters in Christ throughout the world. Just now I would like to focus my attention on Rose and Cheow. I do not wish to be argumentative or controversial ;but rather to explore our differences and to see if we can correct any errors that we might find I find it hard to grasp the basic notion that all the evil people who ever lived will be waiting outside the gates and at the drop of a hat will walk in. I see throughout the Bible ; the teaching that evil will be punished and righteousness rewarded. Evil will be rewarded according to its severity and righteousness according to its merit. If there is any tomorrow in the realm of the spirit ,then there is no eternity:Just a long time . It will come to an end. Some seem to think that God is waiting for a certain event to occur and then he will intervene. Not so . God created Pharaoh with the specific intention of drowning him and his army in the red sea. God caused Paul to be born and had him educated in a certain way so as to fulfil his purpose. The word is above all else, practical. These things are obvious ; that righteousness exalts a nation. Sin is a reproach to any country . When the righteous rule, the people rejoice. When the wicked rule ,the people mourn. Everything written in the law is for the benefit of mankind. I strive to enter into his rest (Sabbath) I struggle with some of the minor details. I am once again reminded of the word of that most popular song.

Oh! Jesus ,if I should die upon a foreign field some day

It is no more than love demands , No less could I repay.

No greater love has mortal man than for his friend to die

These are the words he gently spoke to me.

If just a cup of water I place within your hands then just a cup of water is all that I demand

Be faithful weary pilgrim,The morning I can see ,So take your cross and follow close to me

It seems to me that without threat of severe penalty , there is no fear of committing evil.
Without assurance of reward , not much point in doing good. I could be wrong but I can't see where.

Alec

Richard Amiel McGough
10-27-2009, 02:52 PM
Greetings to all my brothers and sisters in Christ throughout the world. Just now I would like to focus my attention on Rose and Cheow. I do not wish to be argumentative or controversial ;but rather to explore our differences and to see if we can correct any errors that we might find I find it hard to grasp the basic notion that all the evil people who ever lived will be waiting outside the gates and at the drop of a hat will walk in. I see throughout the Bible ; the teaching that evil will be punished and righteousness rewarded. Evil will be rewarded according to its severity and righteousness according to its merit. If there is any tomorrow in the realm of the spirit ,then there is no eternity:Just a long time . It will come to an end. Some seem to think that God is waiting for a certain event to occur and then he will intervene. Not so . God created Pharaoh with the specific intention of drowning him and his army in the red sea. God caused Paul to be born and had him educated in a certain way so as to fulfil his purpose. The word is above all else, practical. These things are obvious ; that righteousness exalts a nation. Sin is a reproach to any country . When the righteous rule, the people rejoice. When the wicked rule ,the people mourn. Everything written in the law is for the benefit of mankind. I strive to enter into his rest (Sabbath) I struggle with some of the minor details. I am once again reminded of the word of that most popular song.

Oh! Jesus ,if I should die upon a foreign field some day

It is no more than love demands , No less could I repay.

No greater love has mortal man than for his friend to die

These are the words he gently spoke to me.

If just a cup of water I place within your hands then just a cup of water is all that I demand

Be faithful weary pilgrim,The morning I can see ,So take your cross and follow close to me

It seems to me that without threat of severe penalty , there is no fear of committing evil.
Without assurance of reward , not much point in doing good. I could be wrong but I can't see where.

Alec
Hey Alec,

I agree with most of what you wrote, until I come to the final two sentences:

It seems to me that without threat of severe penalty , there is no fear of committing evil.
Without assurance of reward , not much point in doing good. I could be wrong but I can't see where.

The problem with evil people is that they commit their evil acts BECAUSE they have neither fear nor love of God - the threat of hell does not stop the wicked man from being wicked or acting wickedly.

And would you say that I really LOVED GOD if I was good only because of fear of hell or getting some personal reward? Would that really be LOVE? The soul that loves God is not driven by fear of hell or hope of personal reward. The redeemed soul is driven by LOVE OF GOD.

Or that's how it seems to me anyway!

Many blessings my friend,

Richard

Rose
10-27-2009, 03:23 PM
Greetings to all my brothers and sisters in Christ throughout the world. Just now I would like to focus my attention on Rose and Cheow. I do not wish to be argumentative or controversial ;but rather to explore our differences and to see if we can correct any errors that we might find I find it hard to grasp the basic notion that all the evil people who ever lived will be waiting outside the gates and at the drop of a hat will walk in. I see throughout the Bible ; the teaching that evil will be punished and righteousness rewarded. Evil will be rewarded according to its severity and righteousness according to its merit. If there is any tomorrow in the realm of the spirit ,then there is no eternity:Just a long time . It will come to an end. Some seem to think that God is waiting for a certain event to occur and then he will intervene. Not so . God created Pharaoh with the specific intention of drowning him and his army in the red sea. God caused Paul to be born and had him educated in a certain way so as to fulfil his purpose. The word is above all else, practical. These things are obvious ; that righteousness exalts a nation. Sin is a reproach to any country . When the righteous rule, the people rejoice. When the wicked rule ,the people mourn. Everything written in the law is for the benefit of mankind. I strive to enter into his rest (Sabbath) I struggle with some of the minor details. I am once again reminded of the word of that most popular song.

Oh! Jesus ,if I should die upon a foreign field some day

It is no more than love demands , No less could I repay.

No greater love has mortal man than for his friend to die

These are the words he gently spoke to me.

If just a cup of water I place within your hands then just a cup of water is all that I demand

Be faithful weary pilgrim,The morning I can see ,So take your cross and follow close to me

It seems to me that without threat of severe penalty , there is no fear of committing evil.
Without assurance of reward , not much point in doing good. I could be wrong but I can't see where.

Alec

Hey there Alec,

Do you really believe that God created Pharaoh solely for the purpose of drowning him and his army in the Red Sea? I know God hardened Pharaoh's wicked heart and used him to deliver the children of Israel out of Egypt, but that is quite different than saying God created Pharaoh to destroy him!

I wouldn't quite say "at the drop of a hat" those who walk in wickedness outside the gates will enter in, more like a "drop of living water" :D, but only if they repent as any other person in all of history has had to do. And it matters not how horrendously wicked someone has been, if they repent and ask forgiveness....God will forgive them. That doesn't mean they won't be judged for the deeds done in this body, as we all will.

You brought up Paul. What punishment do you think he received for all the wicked acts he performed against Christians? It seems to me he was forgiven.

Many blessings to you Alec

Rose

alec cotton
10-29-2009, 11:30 AM
Quote

Hey there Alec,

Do you really believe that God created Pharaoh solely for the purpose of drowning him and his army in the Red Sea? I know God hardened Pharaoh's wicked heart and used him to deliver the children of Israel out of Egypt, but that is quite different than saying God created Pharaoh to destroy him!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Rose.
No! Not for the SOLE purpose of drowning him .but to show his Wrath and to make his power known. In verse 11 it is made quite clear that the unborn children were to be created for a specific purpose. Some seem to have the impression that God is sitting on the sideline wathching developments and tweaking and twitching to make things go his way. In Daniel 10:12 the angel said to Daniel;"From the first day that you set your heart to pray I was sent ,but the prince of the power of persia withstood me twenty one days. ". Now, I am certain that the angel did not set off on a journey from heaven on foot . Nor did he come by first class train or jumbo jet. He passed through time . Time is an illusion What has been ,will be and that which is to come has already been. This concept is so far removed from my human experience that I cannot grasp it.

On your second point about having a second chance to repent, ( Purgatory?)
I can find nothing anywhere in scripture to support such a notion . Now is the appointed time. Today if you will hear his voice.

you said;
You brought up Paul. What punishment do you think he received for all the wicked acts he performed against Christians? It seems to me he was forgiven.


My answer is ;None. On three counts . He was born by the will of God to fulfill a purpose. He changed course and was fogiven. In Isaiah we read ;"When a righteouss man turns away from his righteosness and committeth iniquity,and dieth in them ; for the iniquity which he has done shall he die." Again ,when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he hath committed,and doeth that which is lawful,and right ,he shall save his soul alive-------------He shall not die. It is my personal view that we should pay attention to the here and now and attend more fervently to our duties and responsibilities day by day . Lovely. chatting with you Rose .
Many blessings to you too.
Alec.

gregoryfl
10-29-2009, 01:32 PM
I would like to add some thoughts of mine, as one who has seriously considered these things as well.

Scripture does indeed tell us that God makes some vessels so as to show his wrath and power, as the following declares:

Rom 9:22 But what if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make known His power, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction,

This is the very reason Pharaoh was made Pharaoh:

Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very thing I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth."

We see therefore, at the very least, that the vessels (meaning physical bodies) were made, some prepared so as to be shown mercy, and some for destruction.

I must consider though that the whole of man is not in view here, for nothing is said concerning what is in the vessel. And what is that?

Zec 12:1 An oracle. The word of Yahweh concerning Israel. Yahweh, who stretches out the heavens, and lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him...

Yes, there is a spirit in man, of which God is the father of. He is indeed called the father of spirits.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore, we had the fathers of our flesh to chasten us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits, and live?

It is vital to understand that what happened to Pharaoh, and the firstborn children, for example, was not the total end for him. Perhaps from a physical human standpoint yes, but not as far as eternity is concerned.

The best example I have concerning this is Sodom and Gomorrah. We know that they suffered destruction, fire from heaven by God himself. In fact, this destruction was called by Jude 'aionion' fire:

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

Now, as I have tried to demonstrate on other posts here, this fire was not eternal in the sense of never ending, for it is not speaking of the duration of the fire. It is speaking of the nature of the fire, because it is divine fire, coming from God.

Most say that such a punishment was the total end for Sodom and Gomorrah, yet the prophets would not agree. For they will be restored to their former estate, as Ezekiel states:

Eze 16:55 Your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate; and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate; and you and your daughters shall return to your former estate.

From what I have studied out and meditated on, I see no problem with a God who can both destroy someone or something, even having made them for that very reason, and yet also save them ultimately. Those who think that God can only have his justice satisfied through a perpetual punishment that never ends have forgotten that God's justice was forever and completely satisfied on the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, and forever it will remain there.

Ron

Rose
10-29-2009, 02:54 PM
I would like to add some thoughts of mine, as one who has seriously considered these things as well.

Scripture does indeed tell us that God makes some vessels so as to show his wrath and power, as the following declares:

Rom 9:22 But what if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make known His power, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction,

This is the very reason Pharaoh was made Pharaoh:

Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very thing I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth."

We see therefore, at the very least, that the vessels (meaning physical bodies) were made, some prepared so as to be shown mercy, and some for destruction.

I must consider though that the whole of man is not in view here, for nothing is said concerning what is in the vessel. And what is that?

Zec 12:1 An oracle. The word of Yahweh concerning Israel. Yahweh, who stretches out the heavens, and lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him...

Yes, there is a spirit in man, of which God is the father of. He is indeed called the father of spirits.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore, we had the fathers of our flesh to chasten us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits, and live?

It is vital to understand that what happened to Pharaoh, and the firstborn children, for example, was not the total end for him. Perhaps from a physical human standpoint yes, but not as far as eternity is concerned.

Hi Ron,

I think it is very important to differentiate between God making a vessel for the purpose of its destruction, and God preparing a vessel He has already made for use in displaying His power, and glory.

God created Pharaoh just like He created you and me, He didn't create Pharaoh for evil, but rather raised him up knowing he was evil and hardened (prepared) his heart to serve Gods own purpose.


The best example I have concerning this is Sodom and Gomorrah. We know that they suffered destruction, fire from heaven by God himself. In fact, this destruction was called by Jude 'aionion' fire:

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

Now, as I have tried to demonstrate on other posts here, this fire was not eternal in the sense of never ending, for it is not speaking of the duration of the fire. It is speaking of the nature of the fire, because it is divine fire, coming from God.

Most say that such a punishment was the total end for Sodom and Gomorrah, yet the prophets would not agree. For they will be restored to their former estate, as Ezekiel states:

Eze 16:55 Your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate; and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate; and you and your daughters shall return to your former estate.

From what I have studied out and meditated on, I see no problem with a God who can both destroy someone or something, even having made them for that very reason, and yet also save them ultimately. Those who think that God can only have his justice satisfied through a perpetual punishment that never ends have forgotten that God's justice was forever and completely satisfied on the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, and forever it will remain there.

Ron

I think that is an excellent insight on "eternal fire".... instead of it being a fire that lasts for an eternity, it is rather speaking of the nature of the fire that comes from the eternal God.

Rose

gregoryfl
10-29-2009, 03:22 PM
Hi Ron,

I think it is very important to differentiate between God making a vessel for the purpose of its destruction, and God preparing a vessel He has already made for use in displaying His power, and glory.

God created Pharaoh just like He created you and me, He didn't create Pharaoh for evil, but rather raised him up knowing he was evil and hardened (prepared) his heart to serve Gods own purpose.

RoseSo I have it clear in my mind as to what I understand you to be saying, are you stating that in the case of what are known as vessels of wrath, that they are not created that way originally, but that God sees that they are wicked and then at that time prepares them for displaying his power and glory?

So that in the case of Pharaoh, you believe that God looked at this one who would be Pharaoh, knew that he was wicked, and based on that knowledge, raised him up so as to serve God's purpose?

I am having trouble understanding that in light of the illustration of the potter and the clay. It appears from what you are sharing that the clay has some say by means of how it behaves that is the determining factor as to how it is prepared. Could you elaborate more perhaps on how a vessel is prepared for destruction?

Ron

Rose
10-29-2009, 04:28 PM
So I have it clear in my mind as to what I understand you to be saying, are you stating that in the case of what are known as vessels of wrath, that they are not created that way originally, but that God sees that they are wicked and then at that time prepares them for displaying his power and glory?

So that in the case of Pharaoh, you believe that God looked at this one who would be Pharaoh, knew that he was wicked, and based on that knowledge, raised him up so as to serve God's purpose?

I am having trouble understanding that in light of the illustration of the potter and the clay. It appears from what you are sharing that the clay has some say by means of how it behaves that is the determining factor as to how it is prepared. Could you elaborate more perhaps on how a vessel is prepared for destruction?

Ron

Hi Ron,

God knows the beginning and end of each persons life, even though He has given each of us "free will", He still knows how each of us will use our "free will". He knows if a person like Pharaoh walking in his own "free will" will turn to evil....God can then take that which is evil and use it for His glory.

The vessel has no say in how it is formed, it is only after the vessel is created that God prepares it to show His glory (in Pharaohs case God hardened his heart)....some He prepares as vessels of honor, and some as vessels of dishonor. Hope that helps.:)

Rose

RND
11-04-2009, 05:29 PM
Richard, I saw in another thread that you wanted to start a thread on this.



These verses speak of satan cast into the lake of fire and says that he will cease to exist: "never shalt thou be anymore."

Geoffrey

It says that the fire comes from "the midst" Satan. I agree he won't be any more one day....soon I hope.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-04-2009, 05:57 PM
It says that the fire comes from "the midst" Satan. I agree he won't be any more one day....soon I hope.
Very interesting.

See how many different views we all hold? There is much to discuss.

RND
11-04-2009, 06:37 PM
Very interesting.

See how many different views we all hold? There is much to discuss. Interestingly the Bible is clear as to who can stand to be in the presence of the Lord - who is after all a consuming fire.

Isa 33:10 ¶ Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself. Isa 33:11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, [as] fire, shall devour you. Isa 33:12 And the people shall be [as] the burnings of lime: [as] thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire. Isa 33:13 Hear, ye [that are] far off, what I have done; and, ye [that are] near, acknowledge my might. Isa 33:14 ¶ The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence [shall be] the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters [shall be] sure.

Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Only those that walk "righteously, and speak uprightly; that despise the gain of oppressions, that shakes his hands from holding of bribes, that stops his ears from hearing of blood, and shuts his eyes from seeing evil" can stand to be around God and not be burned.

revdcb
11-25-2009, 03:09 PM
The scriptures That give me the most trouble are those in the Mt of Olives discourse and of course the ones concerning the rich man and Lazuras. If there is a place of eternal suffering I would not want Hitlier himself to go there. I think that those of us who do believe really don't believe. What we do is give an intellectual approval of it and then put it out of our minds. I believe if were not able to flip a mental switch trying to comprehend such a thing would drive any individual crazy.http://alongtheroadtoemmaus

Rose
11-25-2009, 05:35 PM
The scriptures That give me the most trouble are those in the Mt of Olives discourse and of course the ones concerning the rich man and Lazuras. If there is a place of eternal suffering I would not want Hitlier himself to go there. I think that those of us who do believe really don't believe. What we do is give an intellectual approval of it and then put it out of our minds. I believe if were not able to flip a mental switch trying to comprehend such a thing would drive any individual crazy.http://alongtheroadtoemmaus

Hi Revdcb,

If I haven't already said it....welcome to our Forum :welcome: It's always good to have a fresh face with new ideas.

The statement you made: "I believe if were not able to flip a mental switch trying to comprehend such a thing would drive any individual crazy." should really tell us all something about the validity of the concept of Hell....especially if one has to put it out of their mind to keep from going crazy (it has driven people insane).

It makes no sense to say that a loving, righteous God who humbled himself to become man, to free His creation from the ravages of sin then turns around and sends His creation to eternal torment. It's just not right!
Phil. 2:7-8 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

From my understanding of Scripture all the verses having to do with hell have been horribly misunderstood, and misinterpreted!

God Bless,

Rose

revdcb
11-26-2009, 05:44 PM
Thank you Rose I really enjoy your comments and aswers in debates. Between you and Ram I feel like I've found a home. Dennishttp://alongtheroadtoemmaus.com

CWH
11-27-2009, 10:52 AM
Hi Revdcb,

If I haven't already said it....welcome to our Forum :welcome: It's always good to have a fresh face with new ideas.

The statement you made: "I believe if were not able to flip a mental switch trying to comprehend such a thing would drive any individual crazy." should really tell us all something about the validity of the concept of Hell....especially if one has to put it out of their mind to keep from going crazy (it has driven people insane).

It makes no sense to say that a loving, righteous God who humbled himself to become man, to free His creation from the ravages of sin then turns around and sends His creation to eternal torment. It's just not right!
Phil. 2:7-8 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

From my understanding of Scripture all the verses having to do with hell have been horribly misunderstood, and misinterpreted!

God Bless,

Rose

Does it make no sense also that a righteous loving God would want to destroy all that he has created on land by a great flood in order to wipe out all wicked men except a few righteous ones?

If I am a robot maker and the robots that I made have turned corrupted. Don't you think I will recall all the robots that I have mad, deactivate them and create new robots without corruptions? Do I have the absolute right to do so? To allow those corrupted robots to carry on would only create more corruptions which ultimately will affect corruptly everything on earth.

Many Blessings.

Rose
11-27-2009, 08:29 PM
Does it make no sense also that a righteous loving God would want to destroy all that he has created on land by a great flood in order to wipe out all wicked men except a few righteous ones?

If I am a robot maker and the robots that I made have turned corrupted. Don't you think I will recall all the robots that I have mad, deactivate them and create new robots without corruptions? Do I have the absolute right to do so? To allow those corrupted robots to carry on would only create more corruptions which ultimately will affect corruptly everything on earth.

Many Blessings.

Hi Cheow,

God destroyed all of mankind for wickedness, save the eight souls on the Ark...then promising to never again do such an act. That was the old order of things (old kosmos) when as some believe, angels had relations with men and a mixed race existed which became more and more wicked, until God destroyed them all with the flood.

Then with righteous Noah a (then) new order of the kosmos began, becoming the Old Covenant age with Abraham, no longer could angels interact physically with man. That order of the kosmos existed starting with Noah through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 tribes of Israel continuing on until Jesus Christ brought in the New Covenant. When God, humbling Himself and becoming man, once again destroyed the old kosmos (destruction of the Old Covenant sytem [Temple]) bringing in a new kosmos.

1.) Old kosmos destroyed by flood, bringing in a new order (the Law) starting with Noah
2.) The Law continued until the coming of Christ
3.) New kosmos (current order of things) brought in with destruction of the Temple (old heaven and earth passing away)

God Bless,

Rose

CWH
11-27-2009, 10:53 PM
Hi Cheow,

God destroyed all of mankind for wickedness, save the eight souls on the Ark...then promising to never again do such an act. That was the old order of things (old kosmos) when as some believe, angels had relations with men and a mixed race existed which became more and more wicked, until God destroyed them all with the flood.

Then with righteous Noah a (then) new order of the kosmos began, becoming the Old Covenant age with Abraham, no longer could angels interact physically with man. That order of the kosmos existed starting with Noah through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 tribes of Israel continuing on until Jesus Christ brought in the New Covenant. When God, humbling Himself and becoming man, once again destroyed the old kosmos (destruction of the Old Covenant sytem [Temple]) bringing in a new kosmos.

1.) Old kosmos destroyed by flood, bringing in a new order (the Law) starting with Noah
2.) The Law continued until the coming of Christ
3.) New kosmos (current order of things) brought in with destruction of the Temple (old heaven and earth passing away)

God Bless,

Rose

Hi Rose,

I agree with most of what you said in your reply. Thanks.

But let's imagine the current world that we are living in getting more corrupted and more and more evil, would God not intervene? Would He not want to destroy the earth again saving a righteous few? I think He would except that it will not be in a great flood as He has promised not to do so but by other means such as by fire or diseases. Or would God be indifferent and said, "Well, the New Covenant was already out, there is nothing I can do.".

Many Blessings to you.

Rose
11-27-2009, 11:26 PM
Hi Rose,

I agree with most of what you said in your reply. Thanks.

But let's imagine the current world that we are living in getting more corrupted and more and more evil, would God not intervene? Would He not want to destroy the earth again saving a righteous few? I think He would except that it will not be in a great flood as He has promised not to do so but by other means such as by fire or diseases. Or would God be indifferent and said, "Well, the New Covenant was already out, there is nothing I can do.".

Many Blessings to you.

Hi Cheow,

Well I don't think God would be quite so nonchalant about the matter, but the part about being under the New Covenant is correct. This age we are in now is an everlasting age, God humbled Himself and became man, Jesus Christ to bring in this order of the kosmos we are now under, there is no more that can be done. The sacrifice of Jesus was for all time....eternal.

The New Jerusalem is a reality now, and the sinful men that still remain outside the gates will always have a way of salvation by which to enter in, so there is no need for the kind of destruction that was poured out during the flood.


God Bless,

Rose

alec cotton
11-28-2009, 12:52 PM
[QUOTE=Rose;16204]Hi Cheow,

God destroyed all of mankind for wickedness, save the eight souls on the Ark...then promising to never again do such an act. That was the old order of things (old kosmos) when as some believe, angels had relations with men and a mixed race existed which became more and more wicked, until God destroyed them all with the flood.

Then with righteous Noah a (then) new order of the kosmos began, becoming the Old Covenant age with Abraham, no longer could angels interact physically with man. That order of the kosmos existed starting with Noah through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 tribes of Israel continuing on until Jesus Christ brought in the New Covenant. When God, humbling Himself and becoming man, once again destroyed the old kosmos (destruction of the Old Covenant sytem [Temple]) bringing in a new kosmos.
Rose!
You really should curb your enthusiasm for the sake of accuracy. I am not saying that it was deliberate on your part but I have seen this ploy used to obscure the truth. Especially amongst the supporters of Darwin. You just said ' When ,as some people believe,angels had relations with men'. That is speculation. Then you continue to assume that the statement is true You finally conclude as if it were a proven fact. It was only speculation in the first place. I will now make a proposition and if you can refute it ,please do so. I do not want to be wrong and if you can correct me I will be right. Adam was not the first human being on earth. He was the first man . He was a special creation That fact can be seen when Cain complained to God and said ,'Every man's hand will be against me and everybody will want to kill me'. Everybody?! .If Adam was the first human ,then there was only his dad. Now let's employ a bit of common sense round here. Cain got a wife. Where from?. She had a baby called Enoch and then Cain built a city. For the three of them?!.
You need a few thousand people to justify a city. 'The sons of God' were the descendants of Adam. 'The daughters of men ' were the (brute) people who populated the earth before Adam was created. I hope that this potato isn't to hot for you
Kind regards
Alec

Richard Amiel McGough
11-28-2009, 02:27 PM
Rose!
You really should curb your enthusiasm for the sake of accuracy. I am not saying that it was deliberate on your part but I have seen this ploy used to obscure the truth. Especially amongst the supporters of Darwin. You just said ' When ,as some people believe,angels had relations with men'. That is speculation. Then you continue to assume that the statement is true You finally conclude as if it were a proven fact. It was only speculation in the first place. I will now make a proposition and if you can refute it ,please do so. I do not want to be wrong and if you can correct me I will be right. Adam was not the first human being on earth. He was the first man . He was a special creation That fact can be seen when Cain complained to God and said ,'Every man's hand will be against me and everybody will want to kill me'. Everybody?! .If Adam was the first human ,then there was only his dad. Now let's employ a bit of common sense round here. Cain got a wife. Where from?. She had a baby called Enoch and then Cain built a city. For the three of them?!.
You need a few thousand people to justify a city. 'The sons of God' were the descendants of Adam. 'The daughters of men ' were the (brute) people who populated the earth before Adam was created. I hope that this potato isn't to hot for you
Kind regards
Alec
Hey Alec,

I think the idea that Adam was the first "man" vs. all the other "humans" that existed before him is a very interesting attempt to answer the questions about the populations that lived outside the garden. I think Hugh Ross holds this view. But there are a few problems, such as the idea that Eve was the mother of ALL the living, and in Acts Paul says that God made "all nations" of "one blood" which in Hebrew would be one "dam" which is closely related to Adam. So I have not come to a conclusion about this yet.

As for the interbreeding of fallen angels and humans - there is some prima facie evidence for that in Scripture, but I've never been convinced of that view, and you are absolutely correct that it is speculation so I've never spent much time thinking about it.

Good chatting,

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
11-28-2009, 04:08 PM
I admit to being a fool when it comes to 'Fallen Angels' in the Bible.
Where in the Bible does it mention Fallen Angels?
Please give all verses, if possible.


PS- Maybe there is another word for 'Fallen Angel' that I am unaware or over-looking.
The term "fallen angel" does not occur in Scripture, but the idea is derived from a few passages of the Bible. The most obvious is:

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Folks general understand that Satan was an angel, and so they arrive at the idea of a "fallen angel." This idea also fits well with Jude:

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
And so on ...