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  1. #101
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    Hi Joe,

    Actually, I don't understand why the urgency of sending letters to the 7 churches which are mainly in Asia Minor and Greece, so far away from Jerusalem. The destruction of Jerusalem or the end of the Jewish age in AD 70 would have no impact on them in view of their distances from Jerusalem. Besides why only to the 7 churches? I am sure there were more than 7 churches throughout the Roman world then. What so special about the 7 churches? You mean the rest of the churches besides the 7 were neglected? I believe the 7 churches were just symbolic of the behaviors of some Christians in the churches throughout the world and God was telling and warning them to "wake up" for He comes like a thief:
    It's very interesting that you brought up three main points:

    1. Christ threatens to come like a thief if they do not awake/repent
    2. The examples of behavior within the 7 churches
    3. Why was the message sent to the seven churches, so far away from Jerusalem

    You are absolutely right brother Cheow. Christ chose the seven churches of Asia to deliver his message of commendation, as well as rebuke. This, no doubt, would serve as an example for Churches throughout all generations, to have a pattern to follow. Namely in this, that if Christ punished them for their mistakes, what makes us think that He'll not do the same to us, or anyone in the future? That answer is quite obvious. God is the same yesterday, and today, and so all are under the same warning should we commit the same errors they made. Thus, this is where I agree with you, that God chose the 7 to serve as examples, just as Moses leading the Israelites through the red sea, and watching the disobedient onces suffer God's wrath even after being saved through the red sea. We too have passed through the cloud, and through the sea, and should not think highly of ourselves as though God's wrath cannot be rained down upon us. But, we must also understand that God's grace is just as high as His wrath.

    Now why the 7 if so far away from Jerusalem? My opinion is that many of the Christians who fled Jerusalem, fled into those nearby cities. Peter writes to the dispersed Christians from Jerusalem who resided in many of the Gentile cities. That could be one reason.

    Another reason I believe is to explain to them, through visions, that the reign of Christ was active among them, and that they needed a prophetic explanation of what was going on, why it was taking place, and to prepare them for what the Beast was about to do to them. Rome (The Beast) was attacking His Kingdom (The Church), and many of them were falling away from the faith. The author of Hebrews tries to exhort the Christians scattered from Jerusalem, to remain faithful, despite the horrors they were facing (probably from Nero Caesar). Thus, Christ was doing the same by showing them that their faith in Him is very worth it, and that they would become the primary contributor's for the expansion and success of His Kingdom.

    Another reason I believe is that a certain "number of election" were being chosen to take their seats in the courts (the heavenly courts). Some were also chosen to be "pillars", that is to say, eternal examples of faithfulness, even unto death, that would figuratively uphold the Church forever. Thus, their testimony would be as strong as a "pillar" that upholds a very tall structure.

    Finally, they were being shown that they were the reason the New Jerusalem would be victorious over the Beast, as well as the Harlot that caused great blood shed, from the righteous blood of Abel, to that of the prophets sent to the Harlot. God was showing the true Israelites (born from Christ), that the Harlot, figuratively Sodom and Egypt, would remain in slavery and corruption, and that they (the church) were to become his rightful Bride, through their faithfulness, despite the infliction of pain and suffering caused by both Beast and Harlot.

    What happened to the Beast and Harlot? The Harlot was destroyed by the very beast she trusted; Rome. Rome was destroyed by the testimony of the early church. Thus, a nation that was once dominated by the Blasphemy of the Emperors (god and divine), had become an Empire of the Church, just as it is today. Since that time, the huge stone spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, has remained the leader, the chief corner stone, and is the express reason why nations rise and fall. To nations which are being saved, they are blessed by His Kingdom, for they stand because of the Kingdom. To nations that are being punished, it is because of their sin, and their rejection of Him, or even Apostasy.

    Let us now come to the main point of interest. Jesus told them, "I will come as a thief if you do not wake up...." Now would this "coming" be in accordance to His divine time, or did He mean what He said? Considering that those Churches were eventually destroyed, could He not have come even after 70AD? The answer is yes. Anytime you see Judgment occurring upon a nation, your faith must tell you that it happened because of His judgment, as well as His chosen Counsel. As the saying goes, "Things happen for a reason.." and we must have faith that all things are based solely in His decision. Christ is the King who has the keys. Christ is the King who was given sole authority, on heaven and on earth. Therefore, all things happens because of His decision, whether by His force, or by His permitting it to happen. That is why Christians live by faith. For although we do not see Him, we know that He reigns, and His reigning is seen through actions upon all nations.

    In conclusion, Christ came in judgment of the Harlot in 70AD. He chose the 7 churches to prepare them for what the Beast was going to do to them. And their selection would become eternal examples for all generations. Only through their faithfulness after suffer tremendous horrors from both Beast and Apostate Israel (Harlot), would the Heavenly Jerusalem become the eternal Bride of Christ.

    To the eternal God of all the universe, who reigns upon all the nations, and every universal world, be eternal glory forever, and ever. Amen!

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 08-20-2009 at 07:04 PM.

  2. #102
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    Thanks Rose and Joe for your replies,

    Of course some parts which you all said make sense to me. But my point is if I am staying in Washington and something disastrous happened in New York, of course I would feel for my fellow men but it would not be of immediate concern to me because it happened in New York and not in Washington. There is no urgency for the news of the disaster in New York. Goes the same for the 7 churches in Asia Minor and other churches in the Roman Empire, they would not be urgently concern about what was going to happen in Jerusalem in AD 70. So why the urgency for the warning?

    The message of the 7 churches is for all churches in the Roman empire and to all generations of churches thereafter to wake up or disasters as described to the 7 churches in Asia Minor will befall them.

    I saw in the web another explanation for the 7 churches in Asia Minor. What it said is that the warnings given to the 7 churches in Asia Minor are the warnings of what would befall them if they did not behave to God's expectations. And these warnings to the 7 churches happened as evident in historical records by the various authors:

    http://www.prophecyupdate.com/the_seven_churches.htm

    Church Period in Church History Dates

    Ephesus Apostolic Age Before AD 100

    Smyrna Age of Persecution 100 to 313 AD

    Pergamos Imperial Church Age 313 to 590

    Thyatira Age of Papacy 590 to 1517

    Sardis Reformation Age 1517 to 1730

    Philadelphia Missionary Age 1730 to 1900

    Laodicea Age of Apostasy 1900 to ?


    Joseph Seiss, The Apocalypse (1900)

    Ephesian: Warmth and love and labor for Christ; defection beginning with a gradual cooling of love, false professions and clergy/laity distinctions.

    Smyrna: Sweet and precious martyrdom, but a progression of clergy/laity distinctions and Judaizing tendencies, with an increasing departure from the simplicity of the gospel.

    Pergamite: True faith more and more disappearing; clericalism systematized, union with the world.

    Thyatiran: Purple and glory for the corrupt priesthood; false prophets enthroned in a time when truth was exchanged for darkness (up to the Reformation).

    Sardian: Separation and return to the rule of Christ; many great names, but also deadness, and lethargy (Protestant centuries).

    Philadelphian: Closer adherence to Jesus' word, more fraternity among Christians (modern evangelical movement of the 19th century).

    Seiss does not give much of a description of the Laodicean church along this same pattern, because he felt that in his day (1900), it was yet to really emerge upon the scene


    Clarence Larkin, The Greatest Book on Dispensational Truth In the World (1918)

    Ephesian: 70 to 170 AD; "the backslidden church"

    Smyrna: 170 to 312; "the persecuted church"

    Pergamite: 312 to 606; "the licentious church"

    Thyatiran: 606 to 1520; "a lax church"

    Sardian: 1520 to 1750; "a dead church"

    Philadelphian: 1750 to 1900; "a favored church"

    Laodicean: 1900 to the end; "a lukewarm church"


    Taylor Bunch, The Seven Epistles of Christ (1947)

    Ephesian: The "universal church of the days of the apostles, or the first century of Christianity"

    Smyrna: Second and third centuries, "the age of martyrdom, when pagan Roman emperors attempted to destroy Christianity with the violence of the sword"

    Pergamite: Covering 250 years (Constantine to Justinian the Great) "the church was exalted to royal power and kingly authority through a union, or marriage, with the state."

    Thyatiran: 538 to 1520; the corrupt, political church of the Middle Ages.

    Sardian: 1520 to the mid 1700's ("but doubtless embraces the entire history of Protestantism to the end of the gospel dispensation"); the church of the Reformation, and a partial work.

    Philadelphian: From the mid 1700's to the present; the church of 18th and 19th century revivals, worldwide missions movements, and renewed expectation of Jesus' return.

    Laodicean: Middle 1800's to the end of the Christian dispensation; "a sad comment on modern Christendom."

    Chuck Smith, What the World is Coming To (1977)

    Ephesian: The early church, up until the death of John.

    Smyrna: 2nd to 4th centuries; Roman persecutions.

    Pergamite: Beginning in 316; "development of church-state system under Constantine."

    Thyatiran: The unrepentant, unfaithful church destined to go through the Great Tribulation.

    Sardian: Dead Protestantism.

    Philadelphian: The faithful church of the last days.

    Laodicean: The apostate church of the last days.



    Many Blessings to you.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hi Cheow,

    Excellent post! You certainly hold a broad range of views! The only thing I would change in your post is to replace the word "Christianity" with "Church" (meaning of course the Body of Christ which is the Temple of God). The reason is pretty simple - the Bible talks a lot about the Church, but does not mention "Christianity" once. So I feel more "at home" and "biblical" if I see the thing that was "coming soon" as the "Church" which is the "Kingdom of God" and the "New Jerusalem."

    Your presence amongst us is a true blessing - more because of our differences than in spite of them!

    Your brother in Christ,

    Richard
    Thanks Richard for your kind comment, it makes my day.

    I do certainly holds a broad range of views and the views in fact fit like a glove. I know you will not accept it but this is how it goes.

    1) John the Baptist proclaimed the Kingdom of God i.e. Christianity or the Church founded by Christ was now in readiness (at hand) and it is open to all Jews and Gentiles who seek his salvation. This herald the arrival of Christ the Messiah.

    2) Christ died on the cross to signal the beginning of Christianity and set the foundation of the Church. It also set the covenent that now salvation is to all mankind who are willing to take up the cross and it's free with the blood of Christ.

    3) His resurrection on the 3rd day is a sign that death on the cross or sacrifice for Christianity is a road for salvation to eternal life. It is also a proof that there will be resurrection after death if we believe in Him.

    4) His arrival in Acts to the apostles was a signal that Christianity and the Church of Christ was poised to spread and conquer the world offering a way of salvation for all mankind.

    5) His second coming at the end of the world is the final judgement of the world in which true Christians will be rewarded and evil people will be punished. Sin will be conquered and a new earth and a new heaven commences.

    Many Bleesings to you.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    Thanks Rose and Joe for your replies,

    Of course some parts which you all said make sense to me. But my point is if I am staying in Washington and something disastrous happened in New York, of course I would feel for my fellow men but it would not be of immediate concern to me because it happened in New York and not in Washington. There is no urgency for the news of the disaster in New York. Goes the same for the 7 churches in Asia Minor and other churches in the Roman Empire, they would not be urgently concern about what was going to happen in Jerusalem in AD 70. So why the urgency for the warning?

    The message of the 7 churches is for all churches in the Roman empire and to all generations of churches thereafter to wake up or disasters as described to the 7 churches in Asia Minor will befall them.

    Hi Cheow,

    Like I said in my last post, all the churches in the 1st century that the 7 churches of Revelation represented would have been mostly Jewish believers, so what was about to befall there Jewish brethren in Jerusalem would have been of utmost concern to them. The Temple in Jerusalem was the center of Jewish life, it was where God had resided on earth in the Holy of Holies. The Old was in the process of vanishing away, and all believers were waiting for the coming of the Lord. Many Jewish believers would also have had family either living in Jerusalem, or temporarily residing there because of the pilgrimages to keep the Feasts.

    The warning in the Olivet Discourse that Jesus gave His followers, was to flee Jerusalem when they saw the armies surrounding Jerusalem, and that is exactly what the believers who lived in Jerusalem did before the end came down. So I'm sure that whatever warning the churches received from the letters (which used the terms "at hand" and "shortly come to pass") they would have used to warn their brethren with.

    God Bless

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

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    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

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  5. #105
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    Brother Cheow quoted:

    Church Period in Church History Dates

    Ephesus Apostolic Age Before AD 100

    Smyrna Age of Persecution 100 to 313 AD

    Pergamos Imperial Church Age 313 to 590

    Thyatira Age of Papacy 590 to 1517

    Sardis Reformation Age 1517 to 1730

    Philadelphia Missionary Age 1730 to 1900

    Laodicea Age of Apostasy 1900 to ?
    I don't quite follow the point of the author regarding the Churches mentioned above. It appears he was trying to use the circumstances of each church based on their existence, and the problems they faced within the Church during their time frame before being destroyed. But some of the dates (or most) are wrong, in my opinion.

    Pergamos suffered severe persecution, as did the Church in Ephesus, during the days of Nero Caesar. The Ephesians were suffering extremely hard at the hands of the Roman government, and the provincial leaders within Ephesus, particularly from the Gentile priests serving their gods.

    I only wish there was more church history regarding the seven churches. That would no doubt provide us more clues as to the difficulties they faced. Unfortunately, St. Eusebius of the 3rd century was perhaps the only church father that offered a history book of the persecutions each of the churches endured. Between the 40's or 50's AD, to about the 3rd century, there were about 11 major persecutions the Churches endured. Emperor Diocletian was the last known Roman Emperor to persecute the Churches in the early 3rd century. In fact, Diocletian may have been responsible for the destruction of many early church writings. It was he who issued an edict to destroy all Christian literature and writings, used withing the Churches. This would explain the reason why it's nearly impossible to find authentic New Testament writings prior to the 3rd century. The only sources available prior to the 3rd century for the New Testament are the quotes of prior church fathers, and the Codex manuscripts which originated from Syria, and Egypt; both of course were tampered copies fashioned by the Gnostics. I state this as an opinion because the Codex copies originated somewhere around the city of Alexandria; a well known Gnostic location of the 2nd century. This would explain why both Codex manuscripts are missing many verses. It is also interesting to note that two manuscripts are dated around the first few centuries AD, and yet neither of them match, although being from around the same regional territories. Thus, this could be over whelming evidence to support the belief that the Codex manuscripts are corrupted, and should not be trusted. Yet many of our modern English based Bibles are based from the Codex manuscripts, so I avoid them. I use the New King James Bible.

    Getting back to the topic, there were about 11 major Christian persecutions as recorded by the fathers, and St. Eusebius appears to be the primary source.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 08-22-2009 at 01:07 PM.

  6. #106
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    Hi Joe,

    Thanks for your view, I understand you are an expert in Biblical history.

    I understand about the explanations by Rose and you about warnings to the 7 churches to "wake up" or face the coming judgement like the destruction of Jerusalem. I understand it warned the Jews about the coming destruction of Jerusalem so that they would in turn, warn their friends, family and relatives living in Jerusalem. I understand that these warnings pertained to not just the 7 churches but also to other churches in the world then and even now.

    I am quite curious as to the writings the 7 churches in Revelation. It seems like an odd place to put the warnings to the 7 churches into the book of Revelation yet God commanded that John wrote it down. Might as well sent the warnings to the 7 churches individually and directly just like the epistles of the apostles; why put into the book of Revelation? The history of the Church throughout the centuries using the 7 churches in sequence and chronological order offers a good explanation as to why the warnings to the 7 churches are written into the book of Revelation.

    Now, the Bible is like a history book detailing events of God's creation from Day One till the end of the present world, i.e. the end of the present creation (I know preterists will not accept this, but please just bear with me). That is why God is the Alpha and the Omega. Events written in the Bible don't end in AD 70. The Gospels detail events to the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ up to about AD 34. It signifies the start of the Church and Christianity with a new covenant for the salvation of mankind to both Jews and Gentiles. Acts and the epistles continue details of events after that up to about AD 67. It was about the struggles in the spread of the Church and Christianity within and around the Roman Empire. The book of Revelation details events after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 up to the end of creation. In the book of Revelation, the 7 churches details the coming events affecting the Church and Christianity in sequence from about AD 70 to the present. In Revelation 1, John explained why the book of Revelation was written and that it started from the testimony of Jesus Christ:

    1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

    The events of the "must soon take place....because the time is near" started with what will happened to the church of Ephesus representing what happened to the Church, Christians and Christianity from perhaps just after AD 70 onwards. Therefore, the 7 churches details history of the Church, Christians and Christianity throughout history just after the fall of Jerusalem till present. The message to the church of Laodicea is the message especially for the present Church, Christians and Christianity:

    14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
    These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. 21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."


    The seven horsemen of Revelation Chapter 4 details events of struggles and hardships affecting the Church, Christians and Christianity from that period of about AD 100 till present and the future. It also features the spread of Christianity through the centuries up till the end of creation.

    The seven trumpets and the seven bowls details events just before and during the end of creation.

    The rest of the chapters of Revelation deals with the events leading to the end of creation.

    The last 2 chapters of Revelation details the defeat of Satan and the new heaven and the new earth i.e. the new creation on Earth in which God dwells with us; a Golden Age.

    God Blessings to all, Amen.
    Last edited by CWH; 08-22-2009 at 09:38 PM.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    Hi Joe,

    Thanks for your view, I understand you are an expert in Biblical history.

    I understand about the explanations by Rose and you about warnings to the 7 churches to "wake up" or face the coming judgement like the destruction of Jerusalem. I understand it warned the Jews about the coming destruction of Jerusalem so that they would in turn, warn their friends, family and relatives living in Jerusalem. I understand that these warnings pertained to not just the 7 churches but also to other churches in the world then and even now.

    I am quite curious as to the writings the 7 churches in Revelation. It seems like an odd place to put the warnings to the 7 churches into the book of Revelation yet God commanded that John wrote it down. Might as well sent the warnings to the 7 churches individually and directly just like the epistles of the apostles; why put into the book of Revelation? The history of the Church throughout the centuries using the 7 churches in sequence and chronological order offers a good explanation as to why the warnings to the 7 churches are written into the book of Revelation.

    Now, the Bible is like a history book detailing events of God's creation from Day One till the end of the present world, i.e. the end of the present creation (I know preterists will not accept this, but please just bear with me). That is why God is the Alpha and the Omega. Events written in the Bible don't end in AD 70. The Gospels detail events to the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ up to about AD 34. It signifies the start of the Church and Christianity with a new covenant for the salvation of mankind to both Jews and Gentiles. Acts and the epistles continue details of events after that up to about AD 67. It was about the struggles in the spread of the Church and Christianity within and around the Roman Empire. The book of Revelation details events after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 up to the end of creation. In the book of Revelation, the 7 churches details the coming events affecting the Church and Christianity in sequence from about AD 70 to the present. In Revelation 1, John explained why the book of Revelation was written and that it started from the testimony of Jesus Christ:

    1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

    The events of the "must soon take place....because the time is near" started with what will happened to the church of Ephesus representing what happened to the Church, Christians and Christianity from perhaps just after AD 70 onwards. Therefore, the 7 churches details history of the Church, Christians and Christianity throughout history just after the fall of Jerusalem till present. The message to the church of Laodicea is the message especially for the present Church, Christians and Christianity:

    14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
    These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. 21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."


    The seven horsemen of Revelation Chapter 4 details events of struggles and hardships affecting the Church, Christians and Christianity from that period of about AD 100 till present and the future.

    The seven trumpets and the seven bowls details events just before and during the end of creation.

    The rest of the chapters of Revelation deals with the events leading to the end of creation.

    The last 2 chapters of Revelation details the defeat of Satan and the new heaven and the new earth i.e. the new creation on Earth in which God dwells with us; a Golden Age.

    God Blessings to all, Amen.
    Hi Cheow,

    One of the big problems with the overview you have presented is that there are prophecies in Revelation that deal directly with the destruction of Jerusalem, and the specific reasons that Gods wrath and judgment were poured out upon her, and that cannot happen again. Nowhere in Scripture does it say a temple will be rebuilt, and if one were to be rebuilt it would have no significance in the eyes of God.

    The 1st century held all the pieces to Gods prophetic picture, and they all fit perfectly in place with what the Bible tells us. The truths that the Bible gives us will apply for all time, but the specific events can only happen once. No one expects another crucifixion of Christ, or another resurrection, or another pouring out of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, so why would anyone expect another destruction of Jerusalem when the one in 70AD perfectly fulfilled the prophetic words of Christ.

    God Bless,

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Cheow,

    One of the big problems with the overview you have presented is that there are prophecies in Revelation that deal directly with the destruction of Jerusalem, and the specific reasons that Gods wrath and judgment were poured out upon her, and that cannot happen again. Nowhere in Scripture does it say a temple will be rebuilt, and if one were to be rebuilt it would have no significance in the eyes of God.

    The 1st century held all the pieces to Gods prophetic picture, and they all fit perfectly in place with what the Bible tells us. The truths that the Bible gives us will apply for all time, but the specific events can only happen once. No one expects another crucifixion of Christ, or another resurrection, or another pouring out of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, so why would anyone expect another destruction of Jerusalem when the one in 70AD perfectly fulfilled the prophetic words of Christ.

    God Bless,

    Rose
    Hi Rose,

    I don't expect another destruction of Jerusalem, I expect a destruction of Rome. To me, Rome is Babylon because Rome and Babylon were both capital of the greatest empires of their times. Rome (besides Jerusalem) was also the place that murder many innocent Christians. Rome was not totally destroyed as seen in history unlike Jerusalem. I expect God to deal a disastrous blow on Rome which I suspect will be the capital of the Revived Roman Empire. Sorry, if it sounds like futurist's speculation.

    God Blessings to you.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    Hi Rose,

    I don't expect another destruction of Jerusalem, I expect a destruction of Rome. To me, Rome is Babylon because Rome and Babylon were both capital of the greatest empires of their times. Rome (besides Jerusalem) was also the place that murder many innocent Christians. Rome was not totally destroyed as seen in history unlike Jerusalem. I expect God to deal a disastrous blow on Rome which I suspect will be the capital of the Revived Roman Empire. Sorry, if it sounds like futurist's speculation.

    God Blessings to you.
    Hi Cheow,

    The one thing I wish Futurists would acknowledge, is the fact that the Preterist's interpretation of "Mystery Babylon" being Jerusalem perfectly fits the picture that the book of Revelation is describing for the destruction of "Mystery Babylon". If you want to have a second application go ahead, but at least acknowledge the perfect parallels that exist in word and meaning between Jerusalem and Mystery Babylon.

    God Bless

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  10. #110
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    I don't expect another destruction of Jerusalem, I expect a destruction of Rome. To me, Rome is Babylon because Rome and Babylon were both capital of the greatest empires of their times. Rome (besides Jerusalem) was also the place that murder many innocent Christians. Rome was not totally destroyed as seen in history unlike Jerusalem. I expect God to deal a disastrous blow on Rome which I suspect will be the capital of the Revived Roman Empire. Sorry, if it sounds like futurist's speculation.

    God Blessings to you.
    That is an interesting post brother Cheow. Although I don't agree, I at least understand this position, which is based more on the "Historicist" position, rather than the Futurist position.

    Most Futurist's believe the European Union (EU) will be the revived Roman Empire. The major problem with this line of interpretation is that it does two drastic things:

    1. Teaches of a non-prophetic return of the Roman Empire
    2. Sets aside the Church as a temporary Kingdom, and not the "Stone" kingdom as shown in Daniel's prophesy

    RETURN OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE

    As stated, there is no scriptural support for this theory. It is only a theory based on the idea that Daniel's golden image involving the 10 toes, represents the revived Roman Empire. Jack Vanimpie believes that the two legs of Iron represented the Roman Empire during the first century; one eastern, and the other western. The problem with this is that the Roman Empire consisted of many nations in the first century, yet the legs represent pure iron. The 10 toes represent the 'mixing of seeds' according to image portraying 10 toes of iron muddied with clay. And because Rome was a composite nation of the Greeks, Spaniards, Italians, etc., during the first century, the feet of iron/clay matches the first century much better than the two legs.

    In conjunction with the two iron legs, and the feet of clay and iron, the Beast Daniel sees doesn't mention anything of a 5th kingdom. He only saw 4 Beasts, and the 4rth one was much like John's Beast, except without the seven heads. The reason is because Daniel's focus was on the Roman Empire itself, while John's Beast was focused on the Roman Empire and its regional kings/commanders. If Daniel's iron/clay feet represents a 5th kingdom, then Daniel must not have received a vision involving a 5th Beast.

    Therefore, the Historicist position of a revived Roman Empire is not supported directly in scripture; additionally, there is no 5th kingdom to be ruled by an earthly kingdom. Daniel is shown a 5th kingdom like a Stone that dashes to pieces all the prior kingdoms.

    THE 5th KINGDOM

    Daniel is shown that a huge Stone would dash to pieces all prior kingdoms, which numbered 4 total. When is this kingdom to be built?

    Daniel is shown:

    Daniel 2

    40 And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. 41 Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. 43 As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.'


    Daniel sees a 4rth Kingdom that is solid, but eventually becomes contaminated and weak through the "mixing of seeds". This weakness would make it that much more easier for the God of Heaven to set up a kingdom "In the says of these kings...." in order to dash it.

    Now consider this. If the toes represented a revived Roman Empire, then that must mean the God of heaven has not yet set up a Kingdom during the days of kings which are future, according to the Historicist position.

    This is a huge fallacy on the part of those who embrace this teaching. To teach a revived Roman Empire is also to teach that the God of heaven has not yet set up a kingdom. Thus, the Roman Empire still exists, and we await the dividing of Rome into 10 through the mixing of seeds.

    But does the Roman Empire exist? Absolutely not! And it hasn't since the 4rth century. So does the Bible teach of a "pause" between the solid Roman Empire, until the "mixed" Roman Empire? No, I'm afraid it doesn't.

    Therefore, the conclusion is simple. The God of heaven set up a kingdom in the first century, which the Bible calls the Church (assembly) of the first born (Jesus), during the days of the kings which ruled over the Roman Empire during the first century. It is impossible to ascribe Daniel's image to any future date; furthermore, scripture demands that its interpretation be placed in the first century, when Jesus came to set up the Kingdom, which was then "At Hand".

    The teaching of a revived Roman Empire is incorrect according to scripture.

    Joe

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