The Mark of the Beast 666 / 616

[CWH]

Hi Joseph,

"When God says to the Messiah, "Sit thou and my right hand...." What does He mean? Considering God is a Spirit, and cannot be seen, nor does He have a human body, how could Christ sit at His right hand, if he doesn't literally have a hand?"
I will try to answer your above question as best as I can.

If I say to you, "You are my right hand man". I could mean literally "you are the man sitting/standing on the right side of my body" or most correctly in a symbolic way, "you are my most trusted man that I can rely on". But whether or not I mean literally or symbolically, I do mean I have a right side of my body. Taking God to be an unseen Spirit, he could easily form a human body just like he created Christ in a human body and would be able to distinguish his right hand from his left hand.

I have compiled a list from an on-line bible on God's right hand. The list is many and I have shortened it. Some do suggest interestingly a literal God's right hand to me (see those highlighted in red, the bold words suggest literal meanings):

⁃ Exodus 15:12
You stretched out your right hand and the earth swallowed them.

⁃ Psalm 44:3
It was not by their sword that they won the land, nor did their arm bring them victory; it was your right hand, your arm, and the light of your face, for you loved them.


⁃ Psalm 74:11
Why do you hold back your hand, your right hand? Take it from the folds of your garment and destroy them!


⁃ Psalm 89:13
Your arm is endued with power; your hand is strong, your right hand exalted.


⁃ Psalm 98:1
[ A psalm. ] Sing to the LORD a new song, for he has done marvelous things; his right hand and his holy arm have worked salvation for him.


⁃ Psalm 110:1
[ Of David. A psalm. ] The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."


⁃ Psalm 137:5
If I forget you, O Jerusalem, may my right hand forget its skill .


⁃ Isaiah 41:10
So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.


⁃ Isaiah 48:13
My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.


⁃ Isaiah 62:8
The LORD has sworn by his right hand and by his mighty arm: "Never again will I give your grain as food for your enemies, and never again will foreigners drink the new wine for which you have toiled;


⁃ Jeremiah 22:24
"As surely as I live," declares the LORD, "even if you, Jehoiachin son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, were a signet ring on my right hand, I would still pull you off.


⁃ Matthew 22:44
" 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." '


⁃ Mark 12:36
David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: " 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." '


⁃ Luke 20:42
David himself declares in the Book of Psalms: " 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand

⁃ Acts 2:34
For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, " 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand


⁃ Hebrews 1:13
To which of the angels did God ever say, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet" ?




Many Blessings.

[TheForgiven]

Good post Choewee. You said it better when you used the symbolic statement, "You are my right-hand Man". That is exactly what Christ is to God. However, I'll take a step further and show that Jesus in the flesh, was God in the flesh. God is Spirit, and Christ was God in word, and flesh....thus, the "Right Hand Man".

Sometimes I wonder when Christ stated, "For I have not found you completed in the sight of My God..." I often wondered if Christ is separate from the Father, or if He (God) spoke in a perspective that we (as humans) would understand His existence. This involves the discussion of the Trinity.

The First United Pentecostal Church believes in what's called the "Oneness of God". Thus, they believe that Jesus was merely God's Spirit in the form of flesh. One strong verse they use is how the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, and thus the Holy Spirit would be the Father of Christ. I tend to agree that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not three separate entities, but One God who manifested himself in various ways. Some teach the Trinity as though each figure or entity are separate Entities that make up Triune God. That is to say, Christ has His own personality, the Father has His, and the Holy Spirit has His. However, if you understand that Christ is in us (you), who is the Holy Spirit, we recognize that the same Holy Spirit that overshadowed Mary, is the same Holy Spirit that comes into our Hearts. And the Holy Spirit is of Christ, and of God, thereby proving the UPC doctrine of Oneness.

At the same time, there's Christ who prays to the Father on the cross, when He states, "Why hast thou forsaken Me?" This would seem to indicate a relationship between Father and Son. It's all very confusing to me.

OK, I didn't mean to drift. But I was trying to show that Jesus is not literally sitting at the Father's right hand, but that He as God's right-hand Man.

Thanks for the post.

Joseph

[CWH]

Hi Joseph,

What i am trying to stress in my post is that some sentences can be seen in a totally symbolic way and some in totally literal way and some in both symbolic and literal way. As in my example, "You are my Right hand man" can be seen in both symbolic and literal ways depending on situation or even the opposite meaning if it comes with a sarcastic expression; "Raining dogs and cats" can only be seen in symbolic way.

I don't totally reject the Mark of the Beast as symbolic but I do see it more appropriate to apply it as literal meaning. I do see the Mark of the God as symbolic to God as he knows who are his people without a mark on the forehead at all. This is also why God don't require God's mark on the right hand of his people. But the mark of God is made literal on his people forehead so that the "locust" and angels and even other people could differentiate who are God's people and who are not. The 666 who is a cunning person will try to confuse the situation or made the things difficult by putting his Mark of the Beast on the forehead of his people. Why would and How could the 666 do that if the Mark of God or Mark of the Beast are symbolic? But why he also need some of his people to put a mark on the right hand is something which I am actively trying to understand which is why my "wacky" (Author's note: wacky?...I believe it has some technological, religious, psychological, cultural, emotional connections) ideas on the mehendi, 3D barcode and RFID chip.

I tend to agree that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate entities, under One main God entity who manifested himself in various ways. I believe that God is Spirit and he could change into human form or whatever form whenever he wanted.

Many Blessings

[TheForgiven]

I don't totally reject the Mark of the Beast as symbolic but I do see it more appropriate to apply it as literal meaning. I do see the Mark of the God as symbolic to God as he knows who are his people without a mark on the forehead at all. This is also why God don't require God's mark on the right hand of his people. But the mark of God is made literal on his people forehead so that the "locust" and angels and even other people could differentiate who are God's people and who are not.

The mark doesn't have to be literal, either for God or the Beast. When we consider the acts and accounts of the first century, Christian's were being placed on trial by the thousands. Martyr after Martyr was added to the glory of God as Christians all throughout Jerusalem, and Asia Minor offered their bodies as living testimonies of faith. In all this, none of them were identified by a mark, EXCEPT that they represented the works (mark) of Christ, who is the right-hand man of God.

The "Locusts" you refer to is symbolic for the roman armies ravaging all the food. Literal locusts are a plague to farmers because they devour, leaving nothing behind. That is what the Romans did when the invaded all the cities of Israel. Every ounce of food was taken for sustaining the soldiers in combat. Meanwhile, the Jews who remained behind to defend Jerusalem, were trapped within the walls. Eventually, because no food supplies were left, the Jews began to suffer famines, diseases, and death. This was a direct result of the Roman armies (Locusts) that devoured the food supply.

Joseph

[CWH]

Hi,

I wonder where is everybody...seems like no new threads or posts these few days. Hello....

I am trying to understand why the Beast requires people to have a mark on either the right hand or the forehead? I think I know why:

The mark on the forehead are for people of lower status and ordinary citizens. It would be easy to scan the mark if the mark(visible or invisible) is on the forehead and not necessary to know full details about these people.
The mark on the right hand is for people with high status so that details of the person/persons could be easily scan and exchange through a handshake using RFID technology. This will help to establish social networks with the Beast.

The other thing that I am trying to understand is why is the Beast so proud of his name or the number of his name which is encoded in the mark?...for it is a human number. Human number suggests that every person will be given an identity number unique to that person; something like social security number or driver license number. The Beast ?identity number is 666 which is also his name. Besides, the term, "human numbers" in popular usage which I know from the internet means population numbers. The identity numbers would help determine the population in the Beast's "kingdom"; the total population that supported the Beast. Sometimes, I think 666 may mean the birthday of the Beast; perhaps someone born in June 1966 or perhaps 6th June 2006....just speculating. Birthday is often celebrated as a holiday e.g. the King's Birthday, Independence Day, Christmas Day etc. Birthday is certainly a proud day worth remembering.

Many Blessings.

[TheForgiven]

Greetings Cheow. I know that this forum has gone silent these past few weeks. I'm uncertain where they are, but I'm sure they will return.

I tried to post a few on the Prophesy website that Brother LES invited me to, but that forum appears to be a bit head-strong towards Preterism. And none of them presented arguments against Preterism; only stereotypes. And Stereotypes appear to be the only come-back the Futurist's use in their arguments again Pretersist; at least on the Prophesy website that Brother LES is on.

I've made my decision to remain here, but unfortunately, it's gotten very quiet. I can actually hear my pen drop.

Now as I've stated before, regarding the Mark of the Beast, it doesn't need to be literal; neither for God, the Saints, or for those who follow the Beast. The "Buying and selling" had every little to do with a one-world market. It had to do with the laws that the Beast was imposing against the Saints. I don't believe that Emperor Domitian was the one John was referring to, but his attitude towards the Christians appeared to be the common practice against Christianity. Christians were not permitted to participate in the Roman economy unless they offered incense to the Roman gods, and the Emperor; additionally, they had to partake of the sacrificial meat, as well as sign a scroll denoting that their loyalty is to the Roman Empire. Unfortunately, being loyal to the Roman Empire meant separation from Christ, and no faithful Christian would dare give in to the Roman persecution, and substitute their love for Christ. That is why John was told that the Saints would have to show great patients, even to death. But those who remained steadfast, and faithful, without giving into the Roman authorities, despite the likely possibility of death, were awarded the crown of eternal life.

Trying to present an argument for a literal mark is not warranted in scripture. The 'Mark' is the same thing as a sign; the same sign that was given to Jeremiah when he was set as a sign for the forgiveness of sins. Read Jeremiah chapters 1-7, and you'll see the same implication.

What then is the sign? Their works; whether of loyalty to the Roman authorities, or to Christ; both were easily distinctive.

Hope this helps.

Joe

[CWH]

Hi Joe,

Yes, I believe they will be back soon. Anyway, we are having a good time here with different people offering different views from their different eschatological positions. That will make this forum very interesting. Obviously, I am not against preterism, if not I won't be here in this forum.

Futurists view the mark as literal whereas preterists view the mark as symbolic. Who should we believe? I personally think we should not put all our eggs in one basket so that if one fails the other will succeed since both futurists and preterist have their own valid points of view. No one view is 100% accurate, so why put all the bets in one eschatological position?

I view the mark of the Beast as 90% literal and 10% symbolic. This goes the same in the many difference views presented in this forum. I have said many times that Revelation is a book that reveals to us about the future; not telling us about what happened in the past. Your views about Emperor Domitian and the events during his time in the Roman Empire are all past events which many of the 1st century Christians to the present already knew. If Revelation is about past events that have already happened which the 1st century Christians and us in the present century already knew, what value is there in Revelation; might as well don't write the book. Yet God himself inspired John to write the book of Revelation; it must definitely for some future purposes....whether for AD 70 or the years far beyond.

Many Blessings

[TheForgiven]

Futurists view the mark as literal whereas preterists view the mark as symbolic. Who should we believe? I personally think we should not put all our eggs in one basket so that if one fails the other will succeed since both futurists and preterist have their own valid points of view. No one view is 100% accurate, so why put all the bets in one eschatological position?

The only time in Biblical Text was a mark taken literal is with Cain. Yet, even in that we do not know for certain if Cain had a physical mark for all to see. But it wouldn't be difficult to accept it.

However, when it comes to the spiritual implications of God's mark over the devils mark, scripture affirms that the mark is not something physical to see, but is an identification based on behavior, be it evil or righteous. As Christ states, "Every tree is known by its fruit...." and again, "By their fruits you will know them...."

Those marked with the "Name of God" on their foreheads are not marked with a birth name, but "reputation". In the old Testament, God always used Israel to expand His Name (Reputation) among the nations. But when Israel lost their trade-mark as God's children, He sent destruction upon the disobedient; the same thing He did in 70AD, and what He does now.

Thus, when God's reputation was ruined by a people who were reputed to be His, God destroys them. But those who are reputed to be His, that are righteous (Through Jesus Christ), bear the Name (Reputation) of God on their forehead and their hand; their minds and their actions.

Joe

[Silence]

Sorry I don't get back here much any more. I skim through some of the topics but don't post a lot. Work is getting more demanding and I don't have as much free time. I am also learning Hebrew so a lot of my free time is spent on that and reading my Hebrew/English interlinear bible with the English lines covered to see if I can make sense of the Hebrew. I'm getting there!

I would like to mention a few things that I have learned in studying the idea of "the mark" and everything that goes along with it. The Greek word is charagma and has the idea of something fashioned by cutting or engraving. A few years ago I noticed that the Hebrew word harosheth is practically identical in meaning with charagma and the first two syllables sound the same.
The mention of wisdom, understanding and counting brings to mind Daniel when he interpreted the writing on the wall. Daniel was renown for his wisdom and understanding and one of the words written on the wall was mene - meaning "to count". I recently heard somewhere that perhaps when Revelation 13:8 was written, part of the verse may have been a transliteration of Hebrew or Aramaic. I believe it is the Greek word translated into six hundred threescore and six. If you read them in a different language this part of the verse reads "son of allah".
I just did a search and found a link to this subject. http://www.beholdthebeast.com/islam__quran_and_666.htm
I also read the section on bifids and chiasms. It was very interesting. When I have more time I may go back and read some more.

Wisdom, understanding, and six hundred sixty & six are also tied to Solomon, and he seems to get a lot of slights from the Holy Spirit in the new testament. There may be something to be learned from this.

Something else I noticed a long time ago - Revelation 13:17 does not say that those without the mark will be "forbidden" to buy or sell. It says they will have no "power" to buy or sell. Which could mean that it is a financial or economic flaw or circumstance that puts them at a disadvantage in this arena. Over time this would have the same effect, though. You would be broke and in debt, with no money to buy with, and nothing left to sell.

That's all I've got for now.

[CWH]

Hi Silence,

Well done! I find your recommended website very interesting. I have yet to finish all the links, It certainly substantiates what I believe the roles that the current Arab league which is the Islamic Empire (2nd Jihad) and the European Union which is the Revived Roman Empire will play in the end times. Somehow, I believe there will be a merger between these 2 blocs which is described in Revelation as "the huge red dragon gave its authority to the 1st Beast".

This is the 1st time I heard of the 666 linked to Islam....worth researching.

A thought comes to me that if those people without the mark of the Beast are forbidden or "no power" to buy or sell then then most likely they will resort to barter trade and subsistence living in order to get the necessities for their daily living. Money will be useless if they are unable to sell or buy.

Many Blessings