What is Heaven?

[gregoryfl]

I know this may open up another can of worms, but I have thought often of what heaven is like. This may sound way out in left field, but could it be that the reality of heaven is simply God, and us in him, rather than some place that is waay out there beyond outer space? In other words, for example, that famous verse which speaks of seeing "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven" might actually not be speaking about a location in the sky at all, but about his revelation in us, in God?

Heaven=spiritual dimension and reality, where we are now hidden with Christ in God, who is ultimate reality, heaven himself.

Earth=physical shadow, where our bodies of flesh are now, a shadow seed casing that contains the reality of heaven within us.

Any thoughts?

Ron

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I know this may open up another can of worms, but I have thought often of what heaven is like. This may sound way out in left field, but could it be that the reality of heaven is simply God, and us in him, rather than some place that is waay out there beyond outer space? In other words, for example, that famous verse which speaks of seeing "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven" might actually not be speaking about a location in the sky at all, but about his revelation in us, in God?

Heaven=spiritual dimension and reality, where we are now hidden with Christ in God, who is ultimate reality, heaven himself.

Earth=physical shadow, where our bodies of flesh are now, a shadow seed casing that contains the reality of heaven within us.

Any thoughts?

Ron

Hi Ron,

I think that is pretty close to the truth. As you noted, Paul taught that we are currently "seated with Christ in the heavenlies" as a present reality. So it may be that the best and most accurate understanding of "heaven" in the Bible (when used as a description of the "place" of God) is a higher (or deeper or more fundamental or more "real") connection with Reality (capital R).

This seems to fit very well with the Biblical teaching which states that the physical world is always in the process of "passing away" while the spiritual world is always "present" and "eternal" and indeed, it is the root souce of all Reality (which is grounded in God, of course):

KJV Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

The "things which do appear" refers to the visible physical world and the "Word of God" is the source of this visible reality that is itself not seen. The more I look, the more I see this teaching throughout Scripture:

Matthew 6:19-21 19 ¶ Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

"Heaven" is a place of "incorruption" and by implication, "permanence" and "eternality" whereas the "earth" is visible and corruptible and impermanent. This then coheres with Paul's teaching on the nature of the resurrected body:

1 Corinthians 15:42-49 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

It appears that "heaven" describes a relationship with God, that is, Ultimate Reality.

Thank you for introducing this very interesting topic.

Richard

[joel]

Such an interesting "symbol"......"can of worms".

I suppose that if we look long enough we can see "heaven" in everything......maybe even in a can of worms.

But what about "glory"?

Jesus had a glory, given to Him of the Father, before the creation.....and...it was hidden from view to a certain extent,.......even though John said.....and we beheld His glory......but certainly not in its fullness.

Hidden attributes of God are seen in the things that He has made,.......if you are given the eyes to see them......but we will see Him, face to face.

Joel

[gregoryfl]

Hidden attributes of God are seen in the things that He has made,.......if you are given the eyes to see them......but we will see Him, face to face.

Joel

I think I understand where you are coming from. Are you saying that in order to see him face to face, he has to be outside of us, separate from us where he is spatially close, yet separate, in order for this to be true?

Thanks,

Ron

[joel]

Are you saying that in order to see him face to face, he has to be outside of us, separate from us where he is spatially close, yet separate, in order for this to be true?

Yes.

He came in the likeness of sin's flesh. His glory came forth as "grace and truth".

When He took it (that body that hung on the tree) into the grave, He came out with a new body, but not yet radiating the glory that He now displays. It had the spear's incision, and the nail marks, but, His body did not show the dazzling brightness that was seen on the Mount of Transfiguration. He had not yet ascended into the heavenly realm.

When Saul of Tarsus was knocked from his horse on the way to Damascus, the presence of Jesus was so bright that Saul was blinded temporarily.

The glory He now displays is representative of the power and authority He has to subdue all things unto Himself. He will change our bodies to be fashioned like unto His glorious body (Phillipian 3:21). We will share in His glory.

Joel

[gregoryfl]

Yes.

He came in the likeness of sin's flesh. His glory came forth as "grace and truth".

When He took it (that body that hung on the tree) into the grave, He came out with a new body, but not yet radiating the glory that He now displays. It had the spear's incision, and the nail marks, but, His body did not show the dazzling brightness that was seen on the Mount of Transfiguration. He had not yet ascended into the heavenly realm.

When Saul of Tarsus was knocked from his horse on the way to Damascus, the presence of Jesus was so bright that Saul was blinded temporarily.

The glory He now displays is representative of the power and authority He has to subdue all things unto Himself. He will change our bodies to be fashioned like unto His glorious body (Phillipian 3:21). We will share in His glory.

Joel

Joel,

Then you must reject what I have shared as false.

Ron

[joel]

Joel,

Then you must reject what I have shared as false.

Ron

Not at all, my fellow truth laboring friend,

I think I understand what you saying, and, I see it from two different aspects.

1.) I interpret your views as stated as applicable to what is happening at the present time, in the spiritual realm, hidden from view to the natural eye.

At present, we are being formed inwardly (like the metamorphosis of the butterfly inside the cocoon). This is a transformation process that has "glory" connected with it,......but glory that is occurring out of view. II Cor. 3:18.

Where do we disagree?
2.) There is a process that will be revealed which will affect our frames.....fashioning our bodies "like unto His glorious body. Phil. 3:21

Joel

[gregoryfl]

Where do we disagree?
2.) There is a process that will be revealed which will affect our frames.....fashioning our bodies "like unto His glorious body. Phil. 3:21

Joel

Believe it or not, I do believe very much in what Paul wrote here. Perhaps how this takes place is where we differ, or maybe not so much, who knows? But I look forward to that time when I shed this old tent and am clothed with immortality and glory, able to see the Lord as he is, in that spiritual dimension of reality, where the shadows disappear.

Ron

[Rose]

Matt. 6:9-10 'After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.'


Matt. 6:18-21 'That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly. Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.'


What these verses are speaking to me is that Jesus is telling the Disciples, an henceforth us….to pray that the Kingdom of Heaven will be manifest here in us on earth. Then Jesus goes on to say that we are to pray for these things in secret and then we will be rewarded openly. We are to lay up for ourselves treasures in heaven, for where our treasure is there will be our heart.

Our hearts are within us so that is where our heavenly treasure is..….within us. That is where Gods will is done, and that is where God’s Kingdom on earth is….within us.



God Bless,


Rose

[gregoryfl]

Richard and Rose,

Thank you both for sharing more on that spiritual facet of heaven. I purposely left out really going into scriptural detail so that those like yourselves could add corroboration and testimony to it. How hard to wrap our mind around the truth and reality of what Jesus said:

Joh 17:21-22 that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me. The glory which you have given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, even as we are one;

I will not elaborate on his words, but let the spirit and power with which they were spoken sink deep into the richness of our soil, where the seed of life is, where God dwells, where we dwell. Truly in two dimensions we live even now--earth and heaven, physical and spiritual, shadow and reality.

Praise be He who brings all back into Himself, out of Whom all things came! Rom 11:36

Ron