Rome

[CWH]

I still find it difficult to associate them with present day Europe. That was the impression of the early reformers while they viewed the Catholic Church as the Mother of Harlots because of the Inquisition. And the main city was Rome, the Vatican. And it may meant to be true back then especially since it is located on 7 hills. But now they say that there were (and are) other cities, big and important cities that are located on 7 hills/mountains, Jerusalem being one of them.

I jumped off topic to give you an illustration for caution in interpreting prophecies. I would advise however to look for the meaning of the symbolism used within these prophecies. What is the significance of horns, beasts, metals...

Thanks for your concern and that's exactly what I am researching about.... the identity of the ten toes/horns, and looking at every area leaving no stones unturned. I do understand and respect your views from your research that the ten toes/horns were the ten kings of the Eastern Roman Empire. I am not here to convince anyone about my research but to present my views, hoping that one day down the road, it could be validated or referred. And as from all research, I am aware that there is always an element of error.

Now back to topic. Surprisingly as one look at the map of the EU, there were 10 former European colonial powers that currently are the members of EU which once occupied the regions of Babylon, Persian, Greek and Roman Empires and moved westward to colonize the Americas. They were:
1) Portugal
2) Spain
3) Britain
4) France
5) Holland
6) Belgium
7) Germany
8) Denmark
9) Italy
10) Sweden

Are these ten nations of the EU mentioned which were also ten former colonial powers of Europe, the ten toes or the ten horns?....thus suggesting the ten toes/horns as the current EU? This topic is related to our discussions on the identity of the ten horns which the readers may want to refer:

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1082



Surprisingly also, the current European western Union comprised of 10 nations of Western Europe and 8 of them were former European colonial powers:

"The Western European Union has existed since 1954 and today includes 10 European countries Belgium, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and the United Kingdom. It has a Council and Secretariat formerly located in London and based in Brussels since January 1993, and a Parliamentary Assembly in Paris. The WEU has its origins in the Brussels Treaty of Economic, Social and Cultural Collaboration and Collective Self-Defence of 1948, signed by Belgium, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_Union

There are also 5 observer nations of the WEU of which 2 were former European colonial powers:
Observer countries: (Rome - 1992)
Observer countries were members of the European Union, but not of NATO. 1
Austria (1995)
Denmark 1
Finland (1995)
Ireland
Sweden (1995)
And the flag of the WEU which is a defense pact of the EU consists of 10 stars shaped like a U shaped horn!:



Many Blessings.

[gilgal]

Thanks for your concern and that's exactly what I am researching about.... the identity of the ten toes/horns, and looking at every area leaving no stones unturned. I do understand and respect your views from your research that the ten toes/horns were the ten kings of the Eastern Roman Empire. I am not here to convince anyone about my research but to present my views, hoping that one day down the road, it could be validated or referred. And as from all research, I am aware that there is always an element of error.

Now back to topic. Surprisingly as one look at the map of the EU, there were 10 former European colonial powers that currently are the members of EU which once occupied the regions of Babylon, Persian, Greek and Roman Empires and moved westward to colonize the Americas. They were:
1) Portugal
2) Spain
3) Britain
4) France
5) Holland
6) Belgium
7) Germany
8) Denmark
9) Italy
10) Sweden

Are these ten nations of the EU mentioned which were also ten former colonial powers of Europe, the ten toes or the ten horns?....thus suggesting the ten toes/horns as the current EU? This topic is related to our discussions on the identity of the ten horns which the readers may want to refer:

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1082



Surprisingly also, the current European western Union comprised of 10 nations of Western Europe and 8 of them were former European colonial powers:

"The Western European Union has existed since 1954 and today includes 10 European countries Belgium, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and the United Kingdom. It has a Council and Secretariat formerly located in London and based in Brussels since January 1993, and a Parliamentary Assembly in Paris. The WEU has its origins in the Brussels Treaty of Economic, Social and Cultural Collaboration and Collective Self-Defence of 1948, signed by Belgium, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_Union

There are also 5 observer nations of the WEU of which 2 were former European colonial powers:
Observer countries: (Rome - 1992)
Observer countries were members of the European Union, but not of NATO. 1
Austria (1995)
Denmark 1
Finland (1995)
Ireland
Sweden (1995)
And the flag of the WEU which is a defense pact of the EU consists of 10 stars shaped like a U shaped horn!:



Many Blessings.

Do you agree that the bible interprets the bible? Where in the bible do you find that horns or toes represent nations? Should we assume that the 2 horns in the second beast which looks like a lamb but speaks like a dragon in Revelation 13 are also 2 nations?

And if the 1st beast in Revelation 13 which has 7 heads and 10 horns represents the revived Roman Empire of 10 nations, what does the Dragon represent in Revelation 12?

[CWH]

Do you agree that the bible interprets the bible? Where in the bible do you find that horns or toes represent nations? Should we assume that the 2 horns in the second beast which looks like a lamb but speaks like a dragon in Revelation 13 are also 2 nations?

And if the 1st beast in Revelation 13 which has 7 heads and 10 horns represents the revived Roman Empire of 10 nations, what does the Dragon represent in Revelation 12?

We have discussed that before gilgal in the ten horn thread, or have you forgotten?... and I have also given you my view on the beast which looks like a lamb with the two horns. The horn in the bible suggests king or kingdom/nation:

Hi gilgal,

I figure it is easier to find the identity of the 1st Beast i.e. the Beast in Revelation 13 that rise out from the sea with 10 horns, 7 heads and 10 crowns rather than just focussing on the 10 horns. This is because the clues are more. I have almost solve the issue and I will be coming out with the interpretations soon after I have organize it. Horns on animals are used for defence and attack, Horns in ancient times were used in joyous celebrations. But let's find out what horn means in the bible:

Attack and defence
Deuteronomy 33:17
In majesty he is like a firstborn bull; his horns are the horns of a wild ox. With them he will gore the nations, even those at the ends of the earth. Such are the ten thousands of Ephraim; such are the thousands of Manasseh."

Protector
2 Samuel 22:3
my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior— from violent men you save me.

Joyous celebration
Chronicles 15:14
They took an oath to the LORD with loud acclamation, with shouting and with trumpets and horns.


Kingdoms
Daniel 8:8
The goat became very great, but at the height of his power his large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

King/Kings
Daniel 8:21
The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king.

Revelation 17:12
"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

Lord
Luke 1:69
He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David.

Horn therefore means a king or kingdom or lord that attacks, defends and protects and celebrates in victory. The 10 horns of the Beast mean the 10 kings/kingdoms that help the Beast in attacks, defence and protection. They will celebrate together with the Beast in victory and in whatever joyous events.

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1082

My view of the beast which looks like a lamb with 2 horns is China... I do hope I am wrong. Spoke like a dragon means spoke with authority. All this is in the thread on the ten horns. Anyway, this is just speculation.

Many Blessings.

[gilgal]

We have discussed that before gilgal in the ten horn thread, or have you forgotten?... and I have also given you my view on the beast which looks like a lamb with the two horns. The horn in the bible suggests king or kingdom/nation:



http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1082

My view of the beast which looks like a lamb with 2 horns is China... I do hope I am wrong. Spoke like a dragon means spoke with authority. All this is in the thread on the ten horns. Anyway, this is just speculation.

Many Blessings.

Well if you think about it the dragon in Chapter 12 is giving authority to someone who looks like him, meaning the first beast, and a mouth who talks like him in the second beast.

But I do wonder if the biblewheel pattern shows some thing similar from the past?

Since it's Revelation 13 could it be somehow linked to Habakkuk the 13th prophetic book?

[CWH]

Well if you think about it the dragon in Chapter 12 is giving authority to someone who looks like him, meaning the first beast, and a mouth who talks like him in the second beast.

But I do wonder if the biblewheel pattern shows some thing similar from the past?

Since it's Revelation 13 could it be somehow linked to Habakkuk the 13th prophetic book?

There are 3 entities, the dragon, the 1st beast and the 2nd beast. Who are these? We can only speculate. I believe future events will reveal their identities.

Now back to topic again. I find it rather strange that the Babylonians and the Persian empires came from the Middle east and the Greek Empire and the Romans Empire came from Europe. All these old empires tend to expand toward the west. After the Eastern Roman Empire collapsed, the Byzantine took over and it also occupied most of the regions of the old empires from the Middle East, Africa to Italy. When the Byzantine Empire collapsed, the Muslim Empire took over and also occupied the regions of the former empires from Arabia, Persia, Africa to Spain. When the Muslim Empire collapsed, the Ottoman took over and occupied the former regions of the old empires and occupied Greece, Africa, Middle East and part of Eastern Europe. When the Ottoman Empire collapsed after World War 1, the Allies and the colonial powers of Europe took over the regions of the former old empires....Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Libya, Algeria etc. World War 2 was also fought for control over those regions in Europe and North Africa. The occupation of the whole regions of the former empires of Babylon, Persian, Greek and Roman seems to toggle between two different dominant regions.... the Middle East and Europe. I am afraid such toggle will also continue in the future between the EU and AL (the current stakeholders of the regions of the old empires of Babylon, Persian, Greek and Romans). In fact, if you read Daniel 11, it mentioned the little horn that took over the regions of Egypt, Libya and Sudan/Ethiopia.





Ottoman Empire:


Many Blessings.

[gilgal]

There are 3 entities, the dragon, the 1st beast and the 2nd beast. Who are these? We can only speculate. I believe future events will reveal their identities.

Now back to topic again. I find it rather strange that the Babylonians and the Persian empires came from the Middle east and the Greek Empire and the Romans Empire came from Europe. All these old empires tend to expand toward the west. After the Eastern Roman Empire collapsed, the Byzantine took over and it also occupied most of the regions of the old empires from the Middle East, Africa to Italy. When the Byzantine Empire collapsed, the Muslim Empire took over and also occupied the regions of the former empires from Arabia, Persia, Africa to Spain. When the Muslim Empire collapsed, the Ottoman took over and occupied the former regions of the old empires and occupied Greece, Africa, Middle East and part of Eastern Europe. When the Ottoman Empire collapsed after World War 1, the Allies and the colonial powers of Europe took over the regions of the former old empires....Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Libya, Algeria etc. The occupation of the whole regions of the former empires of Babylon, Persian, Greek and Roman seems to toggle between two different dominant regions.... the Middle East and Europe. I am afraid such toggle will also continue in the future between the EU and AL.

http://www.uncp.edu/home/rwb/byzantine_map3.gif





Many Blessings.

What about Genghis Khan and the Mongolians? Didn't they influence in the 13th century? Romans 13, 13th prophetic book Habakkuk...I'm not saying it's a direct fulfillment but related to the spoke 13 perhaps?

[gilgal]

ULAN BATOR, MONGOLIA: US President George W. Bush (C) poses with Mongolians in native garb at Ikh Tenger in Ulan Bator, 21 November 2005. Bush become the first sitting US president to visit the remote former land of 13th century conqueror Genghis Khan. AFP PHOTO/Luke FRAZZA (Photo credit should read LUKE FRAZZA/AFP/Getty Images)

[CWH]

What about Genghis Khan and the Mongolians? Didn't they influence in the 13th century? Romans 13, 13th prophetic book Habakkuk...I'm not saying it's a direct fulfillment but related to the spoke 13 perhaps?

It reminds me of the kings of the East with their armies that will cross over the Euphrates in Revelation 16. Sounds like the armies of China, India and Russia will intervene in Middle East affairs in the future and gather and fight in that region known as Armageddon.

Nostradamus mentioned about the Yellow Hordes coming into ?Europe or ?the Middle East.

Many Blessings.

[CWH]

What about Genghis Khan and the Mongolians? Didn't they influence in the 13th century? Romans 13, 13th prophetic book Habakkuk...I'm not saying it's a direct fulfillment but related to the spoke 13 perhaps?

The Mongol empire was an interesting exception. Yet as you can see the Mongol empire seemed to move westwards into Europe and Middle East. The focus again seemed to be Europe and Middle East with the new addition of China. It helped to establish the Muslim expansion into India and other parts of the world such as Africa and South East Asia and also established the Ottoman Empire whilst putting an end to the Muslim Empire. This is analogous to the Dispersion of the Jews in AD 70 by the Romans. Here is the dispersion of the some Muslims and spread Islam further beyond the borders of the Muslim Empire. To me it heralds the possible invasion of the kings of the East ("Mongols" or Yellow Hordes as described by Notradamus) into the Middle East in the future. The current stakeholders of the former Mongolian Empire are China, Mongolia and Russia.

Nostradamus Chapter 10 Quatrain 72:

The year 1999, seven months
from the sky will come a great King of Terror.
He will bring back to life the great king of the Mongols.
Before and after war reigns happily.

Mongol Empire:


Many Blessings.

[gilgal]

The Mongol empire was an interesting exception. Yet as you can see the Mongol empire seemed to move westwards into Europe and Middle East. The focus again seemed to be Europe and Middle East with the new addition of China. It helped to establish the Muslim expansion into India and other parts of the world such as Africa and South East Asia and also established the Ottoman Empire whilst putting an end to the Muslim Empire. This is analogous to the Dispersion of the Jews in AD 70 by the Romans. Here is the dispersion of the some Muslims and spread Islam further beyond the borders of the Muslim Empire. To me it heralds the possible invasion of the kings of the East ("Mongols" or Yellow Hordes as described by Notradamus) into the Middle East in the future. The current stakeholders of the former Mongolian Empire are China, Mongolia and Russia.

Nostradamus Chapter 10 Quatrain 72:

The year 1999, seven months
from the sky will come a great King of Terror.
He will bring back to life the great king of the Mongols.
Before and after war reigns happily.

Mongol Empire:


Many Blessings.

Yeah but Nostradamus' "prophecies" are vague. But what does the name Mongol mean?