Divorce

[gregoryfl]

Here is what I understand about those verses:

Jesus said that divorce was not from the beginning. You married for life. Death was the only thing that would allow for someone to remarry.

He answered this way because of their question to him. There were 2 schools of thought about reasons for divorce, one espoused by Hillel (the more popular one) and the other by Shammai.

Rather than be tricked into taking sides, he went back further than the law in Deu all the way to creation and used it as the basis for God's desire for married couples.

They however, became confused, because the law allowed for divorce, and so they asked about that. The fact that they asked shows that they knew he was making no concession for divorce; husband and wife were to remain such for life.

His answer tells us that divorce was given as a concession only, and it was because of man's hard heart. There was only 1 way in that culture a divorce could occur, according to Jesus, and that was if she committed fornication BEFORE they consummated the marriage, during the betrothal process.

This is the thing that trips people up about what Jesus said here, and in Matt 5. Today those engaged are not considered husband and wife until the wedding takes place. Not so back then. When you got engaged then, you were considered husband and wife, and could only end it by divorce. Mary and Joseph are an example of that.

Now, think about this: What was their response to what Jesus said? It was the obvious. Then it must be better not to marry then. Why would they come to that conclusion? Because Jesus was saying that once you are married, it is for life. You cannot appeal to Hillel or Shammai for any loophole to divorce your wife.

Now, let me also share something that you might be thinking. If you are not, then disregard. But when Jesus said Moses COMMANDED this regarding a certificate of divorce, he was NOT saying that Moses commanded the husband to put away his wife. That was his choice to make. He didn't have to do that. The command was with reference to having to provide a certificate of divorce.

I will apply my own example of this: I was married, and my wife left me and found another man. At the time, I had a different understanding of divorce and remarriage, so I divorced her and got remarried. In this case, I believe that both her and I committed adultery, according to what Jesus said. Now, having said that, I also believe that we, not being under law, and God, being merciful, does not hold that against us. Sin was dealt with at the cross.

However brother, with regard to you and this woman you know, seek the Lord's face about this matter, would be what I would encourage you to do there. And you care for this individual and feel for her situation, and know that Father does as well. He is more than enough.

[joel]

Gilgal,
The basis of your internal conflict concerning this very personal matter (which you are to be commended in that you are willing to reveal it brothers and sisters, in Christ, who care) seems to me to be;
1.) you desire to bear fruit for God in your life (not fruit that is subject to death and corruption),
2.) you desire to serve God (not serve the "old", and find yourself and others in complicated circumstances that tend to produce labor and hardship).

These difficult circumstances may very well be the Lord's drawing you closer to Himself, as He does with all of us.

This is why I am inclined, when discussing such matters as marriage, and divorce between human persons, to refer again to Romans 7 as a sure guide to help us decide and act.

First off, the death of Christ, as we are participants in it as explained by Paul in Romans 6, means that we are "dead to the law by the body of Christ" (verse 4). Paul uses the human institution of marriage to explain this.

We, as humans, are tied to the old humanity by "law". Through the death of Christ, now, we are "dead to the law".......so that we may "joined" to another.

The propriety of joining to another in the outward physical realm
should be preceded by....the being "joined to another" in a spiritual sense.

In my opinion, the Lord is using outward circumstances to focus on inward truths. That is what is truly important.

Further, we are to see ourselves as being "delivered from the law" that held us as humans, whereby we "should serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter" (verse 6).

In the final analysis, "the oldness of the letter" which may dictate certain specific actions of the flesh (...i.e...Moses "letter" concerning divorce/adultery) is not to be our realm of service any longer.

May God grant us the wisdom that we need to serve Him, knowing that only He can bear fruit through us.

Joel

[Bob May]

I don't understand this:




The reason I'm having this discussion is because I met a beautiful girl, divorced. I've seen the girl's pictures within which she's sad, not smiling. I don't know the whole story, which I'm willing to find out to have some discernment. Her favorite book is the bible. She commented concerning her ex-husband, "no matter what you do you can't change them."

I am interested in her but she's divorced.

Good luck then. You aren't a Jew. The Law was given to Jews. Also, if you are a believer you are under Grace, not Law.
You also have a point about there not being a community support for divorced women or widows. These are not those times. Not everyone enters into marriage with the seriousness as they did in times past. This leaves a lot of divorced people in this society.
A lot of what Paul wrote to the churches back then concerned small tightly knit communities. We don't have them these days.
Also a lot of what Paul wrote I view as really good advice to help those communities run smoothly, not hard and fast rules in the same sense as the Law.

Bob

[Rose]

Good luck then. You aren't a Jew. The Law was given to Jews. Also, if you are a believer you are under Grace, not Law.
You also have a point about there not being a community support for divorced women or widows. These are not those times. Not everyone enters into marriage with the seriousness as they did in times past. This leaves a lot of divorced people in this society.
A lot of what Paul wrote to the churches back then concerned small tightly knit communities. We don't have them these days.
Also a lot of what Paul wrote I view as really good advice to help those communities run smoothly, not hard and fast rules in the same sense as the Law.

Bob

Excellent point Bob, the law that Jesus was quoting was the law that was given to the Jews because of the hardness of their hearts. That is preciously what Jesus came to free them from, those who were Gentiles were never under the Law.

Why do people focus on the Law more then on the freedom that Jesus so wonderfully displayed in His Words to the woman caught in adultery "go and sin no more", when the law said "stone Her". Jesus came to bring Reconciliation, Peace, Grace, and Mercy, and to heal the brokenhearted. If those are the motives we have when we reach out to others, we are doing the will of God.

Phil. 4:8 "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

Rose

[gregoryfl]

Why do people focus on the Law more then on the freedom that Jesus so wonderfully displayed in His Words to the woman caught in adultery "go and sin no more", when the law said "stone Her".

Freedom is a scary thing for people who have been so used to the confines and false sense of security that Law, any law, brings. That is my take on why. But oh, to taste the freedom, to truly experience it, you would never want to go back.

Grace is often wrongly seen as bringing freedom to sin, when in fact it brings freedom from sin. For apart from law, sin is dead. Too many believers walk around in the light with flashlights in their hands, as if they were still in darkness. Very sad indeed.

Ron

[gilgal]

Here is what I understand about those verses:

Jesus said that divorce was not from the beginning. You married for life. Death was the only thing that would allow for someone to remarry.

He answered this way because of their question to him. There were 2 schools of thought about reasons for divorce, one espoused by Hillel (the more popular one) and the other by Shammai.

Rather than be tricked into taking sides, he went back further than the law in Deu all the way to creation and used it as the basis for God's desire for married couples.

They however, became confused, because the law allowed for divorce, and so they asked about that. The fact that they asked shows that they knew he was making no concession for divorce; husband and wife were to remain such for life.

His answer tells us that divorce was given as a concession only, and it was because of man's hard heart. There was only 1 way in that culture a divorce could occur, according to Jesus, and that was if she committed fornication BEFORE they consummated the marriage, during the betrothal process.

This is the thing that trips people up about what Jesus said here, and in Matt 5. Today those engaged are not considered husband and wife until the wedding takes place. Not so back then. When you got engaged then, you were considered husband and wife, and could only end it by divorce. Mary and Joseph are an example of that.

Now, think about this: What was their response to what Jesus said? It was the obvious. Then it must be better not to marry then. Why would they come to that conclusion? Because Jesus was saying that once you are married, it is for life. You cannot appeal to Hillel or Shammai for any loophole to divorce your wife.

Now, let me also share something that you might be thinking. If you are not, then disregard. But when Jesus said Moses COMMANDED this regarding a certificate of divorce, he was NOT saying that Moses commanded the husband to put away his wife. That was his choice to make. He didn't have to do that. The command was with reference to having to provide a certificate of divorce.

I will apply my own example of this: I was married, and my wife left me and found another man. At the time, I had a different understanding of divorce and remarriage, so I divorced her and got remarried. In this case, I believe that both her and I committed adultery, according to what Jesus said. Now, having said that, I also believe that we, not being under law, and God, being merciful, does not hold that against us. Sin was dealt with at the cross.

However brother, with regard to you and this woman you know, seek the Lord's face about this matter, would be what I would encourage you to do there. And you care for this individual and feel for her situation, and know that Father does as well. He is more than enough.

Yes I heard that their marriage was an engagement to begin with. The husband would leave and return in about a year to consummate.

Such must have been the case with Joseph and Mary as Joseph found she was pregnant.

But as a Christian, or should I say, since we are not taught the law, unfortunately we stumble upon our experiences and later regretfully say, "Why did this happen to me?"

When we sin we either destroy our body somehow or we live in fear (if we sin against someone) that the person will take his vengeance or might sue us. That's what I'm wondering at this moment. But I don't know the entire story yet. This is a thought that came through my mind.

Going back a paragraph as Christians we are not under the law. That meaning, there were offerings for some sin. But as John the apostle said some sins are mortal sins. Murder is a mortal sin. I don't think you would be comfortable to know there's a killer on the loose or a rapist.

In my opinion the divorce rate has gone up. I see it happening all around me. Even in the most zealous churches.

[joel]

Going back a paragraph as Christians we are not under the law

What is says is; What then? shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid.

Christians are not "under law". To this, we agree. But, the law which was now proven to be ineffective as to the establishment of justification, is it now of no effect? No. We have established the law. It has its proper place.

The works of the law are not the qualification for the establishing of justice. But, the "righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us" (Romans 8:4).

But, we are "under grace". If so, then, we are subject to the teaching (the form of doctrine) which was delivered unto us.....(Romans 6:17).

If we are "under grace".......are we not now "subject to grace" in the same manner as we were once subject to "law"?

If so, then, we must obey grace just as we once obeyed law.

.....and,.....as such ones who are subject to grace.....we are exhorted to........"yeild your members servants to righteousness unto holiness (Romans 6:19). If you haven't obeyed at this point, how can you appeal that all is o.k. simply because you are "not under law"?

Paul probes yet further....."For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. (Romans 6:20,21).

The most critical question, in my opinion, is whether we are subject to the teaching of Paul, while being both in grace and under grace, as concerns the status of the "old" humanity, vs. the "new" humanity.

Joel

[Bob May]

Yes I heard that their marriage was an engagement to begin with. The husband would leave and return in about a year to consummate.

Such must have been the case with Joseph and Mary as Joseph found she was pregnant.

But as a Christian, or should I say, since we are not taught the law, unfortunately we stumble upon our experiences and later regretfully say, "Why did this happen to me?"

When we sin we either destroy our body somehow or we live in fear (if we sin against someone) that the person will take his vengeance or might sue us. That's what I'm wondering at this moment. But I don't know the entire story yet. This is a thought that came through my mind.

Going back a paragraph as Christians we are not under the law. That meaning, there were offerings for some sin. But as John the apostle said some sins are mortal sins. Murder is a mortal sin. I don't think you would be comfortable to know there's a killer on the loose or a rapist.

In my opinion the divorce rate has gone up. I see it happening all around me. Even in the most zealous churches.

I agree with Ron about it being a frightening thing to even begin to understand what it means to be under grace when you have spent your entire life under some Law or other.
It can be the ten commandments (which is really a covenant) or it can be the rules of conduct of some religious belief.
But in the end it all boils down to the fear of what happens to us after we die.
Mankind has been held in bondage to this fear forever. And it is not the fear of the physical body alone. As we grow older the inevitability of the body falling apart becomes a reality for most.

There are various reasons for the Law.

1. Without a set of rules we could not have a society or civilization. Standards to live by. Rules and regulations to live by. When a person looks honestly, there is no need for enforcement of such Law. (For honest people) We realize that "Do unto others.." proves itself to be beneficial to us as a member of society, family, nation, etc.

2. Attempting to live up to a Perfect Standard which is not able to be kept in it's entirety brings us to failure. Then in trying to deal with that failure we come up with all kinds of religious stipulations Mortal verses venial sins etc.
But if we are honest with ourselves (again honesty) we must admit failure.
That is the second purpose of the Law. To reach the end of ourselves.
Paul wrestled with this concept; (Is that what Jacob did when he wrestled with the angel?, maybe)

Rom7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

3. If we realize this, then the idea of Grace begins to dawn upon us. The phrase "the Law leads us to Christ" turns "inside out" as far as how we formerly understood it. It is still true, but we see it totally "opposite."
Other phrases in Scripture also seem to change for us. This is our eyes opening and ears opening (All of the signs to show John the Baptist that it was the Messiach that had truely come.)

2ti2:15 "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

This is not telling us that God won't approve of us and will be ashamed of us if we do not study.
It is telling us HOW TO study and Why to study. To show ourselves APPROVED of GOD. And that we need not be ashamed. (Jesus bore the shame on the cross, by the way)
When we approach Scripture in this way, THEN it is the LIVING WORD OF GOD. It begins to Speak to us as it never has before. Because the Spirit of the word is Grace. Not the letter of the Law of rules and regulations.

This is the highest or third way to look at the Law. Jesus said "Moses wrote of ME.."
David understood this and said;
PS32:1"... Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile..."

Notice there is no "imputed iniquity (Sin) and no guile (Honesty)

He also said, Ps 119:18 "OPEN thou mine EYES, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law."

Here he says that there is something hidden in the Law. A MYSTERY that is not apparent. That is that ?Moses was writing about Jesus. Within the Law is the message of GRACE.
PEACE ON EARTH GOOD WILL TOWARD MEN.
That good will is not "between men" as we tend to look at it. It is God's good will toward men.

That is the "Good News".
That is NEWS!
Our understanding of the Law always starts out as a condemnation.
But ends up without condemnation.
It is not the Law that has changed but our understanding.

But there is now no condemnation

Ro 8:1 "There is therefore now no CONDEMNATION to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

To walk "after the flesh" is to look for rules and regulations to follow in order to bring us closer to God. In other words it is we who are our own salvation. That is man's natural tendancy (first the carnal, then the spiritual). It is seeking the darkness of the letter over the light of the Spirit

But the opposite seems to be the case.

Joh 3:19 "And this is the CONDEMNATION, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

Bob

[grumpybumpas]

Marry someone elses former spouse and you will soon find out why thay were available.