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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    Job32:19 "Behold, my belly is as wine which hath no vent; it is ready to burst like new bottles."

    Mt 9:17 "Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved."

    The venting mentioned here has to do with the way wine was made back then. As the grape juice fermented in the skins the gasses created during fermentation passed through the bottle (skin) and at the same time stretched the skin. Very similar to "balloon wine" that can be made with a balloon over a bottle.
    The skin could only be used once to make the wine as it cannot stretch or pass gas anymore.
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May
    Jesus is saying that we must change body and soul or the new Spirit would destroy us. This changing to accept the New Spirit is, I believe accomplished by the baptism of fire. (Kundalini or Serpent fire)
    I just think He was saying that something new was taking place. The old covenant was giving way to the new

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob may
    You are right in that it seems to contradict this except that possibly it is stating that Job still has the "old spirit" and his body is being changed to accept the new. In other words we are witnessing the Baptism of Fire in the allegory of the story of Job.
    The EGO is a very subtle thing and I believe that Job with the help of Elihu (the Spirit) is being shown just how subtle it is.

    The bottle (soul and body) are undergoing a complete transformation in order to be fit to recieve the Spirit.
    But Elihu is talking about himself there

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob may

    There is a wisdom of man and a Wisdom of God. Job was justifying himself all through this story, but in the end he was rebuked for having done that.
    From man's point of view he may have had reason to complain, but not from God's point of view.
    His rebuke came from his "friends" and Elihu. Elihu was the Spirit in my opinion.
    His friend were really aspects of himself reason, emotion etc. that were accusing and warring within him. The thoughts that run through our minds in times of trouble.
    What did I do to deserve this?, etc.

    Bob
    Job was righteous (Job 1:8), so he didnt deserve his suffering as far as I can see.

    I dont understand how you can say that his friends were just aspects of himself. Can you say how you know this from scripture or is this your interpretation? His friends are trying to say his suffering indicates he must not really be righteous, but he is. They say God punishes the wicked but Job says he sees the wicked living full lives and dying without experiencing suffering, and he sees innocent people suffering - this is why Job knows we will live again as God will not leave us in a state of injustice.

    In Job 42:3 Job says "Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?" Surely this acknowedges there are things that have taken place which are outside what Job could know ie the meeting between God and Satan. If Elihu is the spirit then he would know this meeting and he would be in the position to tell Job that God knows he is righteous and his present sufferings are not because of wickedness, yet what we see is Elihu just saying that God punishes those who deserve to be punished, so in effect though what he is saying is true it is only half the story since not all suffering is due to the suffering one's wickedness (see the Gospels for a good example ). Why couldnt he have explained this to Job and Job wouldve been quiet, yet at the end of Elihu's speech we have him requesting that Job be tried to the limit (Job 34:36)
    He has told you, O man,what is good;
    And what does the Lord require of you
    But to do justice, to love kindness,
    And to walk humbly with your God

    Micah 6:8

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abigail View Post
    Agreed

    I just think He was saying that something new was taking place. The old covenant was giving way to the new

    But Elihu is talking about himself there



    Job was righteous (Job 1:8), so he didnt deserve his suffering as far as I can see.

    I dont understand how you can say that his friends were just aspects of himself. Can you say how you know this from scripture or is this your interpretation? His friends are trying to say his suffering indicates he must not really be righteous, but he is. They say God punishes the wicked but Job says he sees the wicked living full lives and dying without experiencing suffering, and he sees innocent people suffering - this is why Job knows we will live again as God will not leave us in a state of injustice.

    In Job 42:3 Job says "Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?" Surely this acknowedges there are things that have taken place which are outside what Job could know ie the meeting between God and Satan. If Elihu is the spirit then he would know this meeting and he would be in the position to tell Job that God knows he is righteous and his present sufferings are not because of wickedness, yet what we see is Elihu just saying that God punishes those who deserve to be punished, so in effect though what he is saying is true it is only half the story since not all suffering is due to the suffering one's wickedness (see the Gospels for a good example ). Why couldnt he have explained this to Job and Job wouldve been quiet, yet at the end of Elihu's speech we have him requesting that Job be tried to the limit (Job 34:36)
    Job 42
    1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
    2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
    3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
    4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
    5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
    6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
    7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
    8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
    9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.
    10 And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

    We see a change here in Job's attitude. It is here that the end of the whole story is told.
    "5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
    6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

    This is the end result of all of the reasoning of Job, and his three friends. Job has reached another level of understanding and that is he, (and by extention we) cannot judge God's motives by our circumstances.
    "Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not."

    But notice that the three friends are rebuked by God but not Elihu.

    Elihu = "He is my God"
    the younger man who rebuked Job and his three friends. (Strong's concordance.)

    As to whether or not the three friends are real friends or placed in the story by allegory as parts of Job's psyche, it matters not to me. They would be making the same arguments.

    In other words, it is the soul level of understanding saying Job must have really screwed up to deserve this. Or it is Job saying I didn't screw up and I don't deserve this. Both are a partial view of what is going on here.

    It is not until God starts listing all that He has accomplished that Job's eyes are opened to his inadequacy to understand;

    Job 40:6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
    7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
    8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
    9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
    10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.
    11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.
    12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.
    13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.
    14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.
    15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
    16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
    17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
    18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

    Etc., etc., This goes on for two chapters like this.


    "Why couldnt he have explained this to Job and Job wouldve been quiet, yet at the end of Elihu's speech we have him requesting that Job be tried to the limit (Job 34:36)"

    34:36 "My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men.
    37 For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God."

    He was tried to the limit. That was a good thing. He ended up with twice as much as he started out with. And a lot less self righteousness. I believe God was explaining to Job through Elihu. What he was explaining was that Job still had a lot of Ego left.

    I'm not picking on Job, it is the human condition. And sometimes great trials are all that can get through to us. And sometimes God even uses Satan to accomplish this.
    Like I said before Ego is a very subtle thing.


    "If Elihu is the spirit then he would know this meeting and he would be in the position to tell Job that God knows he is righteous and his present sufferings are not because of wickedness, yet what we see is Elihu just saying that God punishes those who deserve to be punished, so in effect though what he is saying is true it is only half the story since not all suffering is due to the suffering one's wickedness.."

    Yes, some suffering is due to self righteousness. And this is the lesson that Job had to learn. So, though Elihu might have been in a position to tell Job of that meeting, why would he? That would only make Job's ego grow rather than bring him to the end of himself.

    Bob
    Last edited by Bob May; 10-21-2008 at 06:18 AM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abigail View Post
    Agreed

    I just think He was saying that something new was taking place. The old covenant was giving way to the new

    But Elihu is talking about himself there

    "I dont understand how you can say that his friends were just aspects of himself. Can you say how you know this from scripture or is this your interpretation?"

    (Job 34:36)
    Job 32
    1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.
    2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.
    3 Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.
    4 Now Elihu had waited till Job had spoken, because they were elder than he.
    5 When Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of these three men, then his wrath was kindled.
    6 And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said, I am young, and ye are very old; wherefore I was afraid, and durst not show you mine opinion.
    7 I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom.
    8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
    9 Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.
    10 Therefore I said, Hearken to me; I also will show mine opinion.
    11 Behold, I waited for your words; I gave ear to your reasons, whilst ye searched out what to say.
    12 Yea, I attended unto you, and, behold, there was none of you that convinced Job, or that answered his words:
    13 Lest ye should say, We have found out wisdom: God thrusteth him down, not man.
    14 Now he hath not directed his words against me: neither will I answer him with your speeches.
    15 They were amazed, they answered no more: they left off speaking.
    16 When I had waited, (for they spake not, but stood still, and answered no more
    17 I said, I will answer also my part, I also will show mine opinion.
    18 For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me.
    19 Behold, my belly is as wine which hath no vent; it is ready to burst like new bottles.
    20 I will speak, that I may be refreshed: I will open my lips and answer.
    21 Let me not, I pray you, accept any man's person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man.
    22 For I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away.

    I see a lot of things in this chapter to point to the idea of Elihu being the Spirit.

    He is young. They are old, yet without wisdom. New wine, New Spirit, younger brother (second born)

    They were amazed and left off speaking.
    He begins to speak when they are still. "Be still and know that I am God."

    Flattering titles and he is taken away. Again the ego.

    He is ready to burst forth from the belly. Jn 7:38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

    Bob

  4. #24
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    My problem is that Job was righteous. God Himself had said as much. Why should Job pretend he was not righteous just to act humble as that would be a lie and contradicting what God said about him ie that he was righteous.

    I can see that Job is speaking from a lack of knowledge as by his own reasonings he comes to the conclusion that an injustice has been done in punishing him. However, even if this conclusion of Job's is prideful in some way we have the problem that the suffering was not because of Job's sin but because of a test which God had allowed Job to be put through. How then can Elihu say the suffering is because of pride since the suffering is because of a test. The whole discussion was to rationalise why Job has been visited with sufferings.

    Elihu does say some good stuff but some of the things he says are strange in my opinion. For instance in Job 36:24 he tells Job to exalt God's work. Really? What does that mean? Must we exalt nature or mother earth (since he goes on to list natural things like weather cycles) or exactly what? I thought the only exalting we should do is of God Himself or we could find ourselves practising idolatory.

    Yes, Elihu does fit a lot of what we know about Christ in physical descriptions ie youth as opposed to old, but I think we should also weigh up what he says too. I am still not convinced as you are of him. I also dont think we can just assume that because God doesnt include Elihu with Job's three other friends for admonition that means God approved of what he'd said.
    He has told you, O man,what is good;
    And what does the Lord require of you
    But to do justice, to love kindness,
    And to walk humbly with your God

    Micah 6:8

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abigail View Post
    My problem is that Job was righteous. God Himself had said as much. Why should Job pretend he was not righteous just to act humble as that would be a lie and contradicting what God said about him ie that he was righteous.

    I can see that Job is speaking from a lack of knowledge as by his own reasonings he comes to the conclusion that an injustice has been done in punishing him. However, even if this conclusion of Job's is prideful in some way we have the problem that the suffering was not because of Job's sin but because of a test which God had allowed Job to be put through. How then can Elihu say the suffering is because of pride since the suffering is because of a test. The whole discussion was to rationalise why Job has been visited with sufferings.

    If we do something for God does He "owe us one?"

    Elihu does say some good stuff but some of the things he says are strange in my opinion. For instance in Job 36:24 he tells Job to exalt God's work. Really? What does that mean? Must we exalt nature or mother earth (since he goes on to list natural things like weather cycles) or exactly what? I thought the only exalting we should do is of God Himself or we could find ourselves practising idolatory.

    If we look at nature as His Spirit working on a physical level how can we not be moved to appreciate Him?
    Ro 1:20 "For the INVISIBLE things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead;"
    That is not idolatry. It is realizing that God left us hints.


    Yes, Elihu does fit a lot of what we know about Christ in physical descriptions ie youth as opposed to old, but I think we should also weigh up what he says too. I am still not convinced as you are of him. I also dont think we can just assume that because God doesnt include Elihu with Job's three other friends for admonition that means God approved of what he'd said.

    Hi Abigail,

    I think the testing of Job is to bring him to a higher level. Closer to perfect so to speak. Self examination, know thyself seems to be the entire theme of the book of Job. This is of course my own viewpoint.
    Humility and righteousness go hand in hand because there is no righteousness except self righteousness or imputed righteousness.

    God uses Satan (the accuser) to test us. The accuser uses the Law to accuse us. No one can pass that test except they realize that it is only by Grace that we are perfected.
    So, over the years, my definition for humility has come to mean to me; An awareness of the Truth.
    We, of ourselves, are not capable of perfection or righteousness.

    To come to that realization we may have to be tried in the "furnace of affliction."
    Sometimes we have to look at ourselves with a microscope, so to speak, to see where we are falling short.
    It is not so difficult for others to see our faults or for us to see other's faults.

    I believe what Job was going through ( which I believe was actually an allegorical story) is very similar to what Paul wrote about in Roman's 7

    Romans 7
    1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
    2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
    3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
    4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
    5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
    6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
    7 What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
    8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
    9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
    10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
    11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
    12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
    13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
    14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
    15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
    16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
    17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    I believe Both the story of Job and the 7th chapter of Romans illustrate the "dawning" in our minds of the "Awareness of Grace" and Righteousness by Faith. And the realization that "Perfection by Works" is an illusion.

    Bob

  6. #26
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    New Wine

    Hi Abigail,

    16 "When I had waited, (for they spake not, but stood still, and answered no more
    17 I said, I will answer also my part, I also will show mine opinion.
    18 For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me.
    19 Behold, my belly is as wine which hath no vent; it is ready to burst like new bottles."

    In rereading this post this morning I found these verses which also lead me to believe that Elihu is the Spirit.
    Here he (Elihu) is speaking and says that Job and his friends stood still and answered no more.
    This reminds me of the verse "Be still and know that I am God." The Spirit speaks when we are quiet.
    If, as I said before, Job and his friends are symbolic of aspects of ourselves, (us reasoning in our own mind) It would make sense that we would not hear the "still small voice of God" until we were quiet.

    Also if his "belly is as wine" and it is ready to burst "new bottles" then those "new bottles" would only contain "New Wine" (The Spirit) since, practically speaking, no one would put old wine into new bottles.
    It is just not done. You would leave it in the old skin, put it jars or whatever, but it would be a waste of the new skin which would be saved for use in the fermentation process.
    Wine makers were in business to make money. They would not waste a goat just to have a container.

    Bob

  7. #27
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    Article: The firmament and the water above

    I keep on forgetting to post the following article:

    The firmament and the water above
    http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_...mament-WTJ.pdf

    It shows how the Bible depicts the firmament as a solid vault and how that doesn't affect the integrity of the Christian Faith.

  8. #28
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    baublitz xpi

    Could you help me to understand, what it the "Terrible Crystal" ?

    Thankyou:

    Dick Baublitz, xpi





    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post


    Ha! Now I see it. Well, my opinion is that God wrote the Bible with ancient cosmology in mind. The Bible's primary audience believed that and I think that God condescended when He employed language that was appropriate back then. It is a pedagogic tool. And He knows that we today are smart enough to know that. It's like when Jesus teaches that the mustard seed is "the tiniest of all the seeds". It actually is not, but His audience didn't know better and it would be pointless for Him to state otherwise.


    Well, I and just everyone else I've heard of have understood that the one 'speaking words without knowledge' was Job, the one whom God was addressing, not Elihu, who spoke words of wisdom.

    Even if it referred to Elihu, the point is that the moral content of the words was "withouth knowledge"; he wouldn't be rebuked by God for his views on cosmology!

    And even if the words withouth knowledge of his were that the heaven was like a hard vault, we would still have the fact that that the OT is saturated with similar language. There are a few examples at the bottom of the first image above.


    Agreed. One way to see it is to think of firmament (raqiya) as looking like it is solid, with the implicit sense of overlay as to cover something.


    That reminds me of another passage where the firmament is depicted as being solid:
    Ezekiel 1:22 And the likeness of the firmament (raqiya!) upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.
    This, among other things, is a vision of the Bible Wheel, as Richard as documented with much supporting evidence. What makes it so interesting is that on the firmament there was God's Trone. (1:26) So raqiya is portrayed as something solid because it is the floor for God's Throne. And that in turn links to the Bible Wheel because God is "on top of" everything. He is the Aleph Tav at the top of the Bible Wheel.

    And it further links to the Trinity:
    Cycle 1: God the Father
    Cycle 2: God the Son
    Cycle 3: God the Holy Spirit

    We can take your idea about the waters above and under the firmament and link it to the cycles:

    Cycle 1: Waters above
    Cycle 2: Firmament
    Cycle 3: The Seas

    It seems to integrate with the Trinity, because God is the Source of all there is (Mem, Water and "From", 1Co 8:6), the Son divides like a sword (cf Mat 10 and Luk 12), and the Spirit gathers the People of God (the symbolic Waters). And of course Cycle 2 is all about the Son: the Prophets speak of Him and His earthly life is recorded there. You can read more about it at The Trinity and the Three Cycles.

    This rings a couple of bells, but there may be more.


    I have always linked this verse in Daniel with the structure of the Bible. Daniel is on Division 4 of the Canon Wheel. And what does God create on Day 4? Sun, moon and stars! So the beautiful imagery of the saints as stars in the fourth canonical division is integrated with the Days of Creation of Genesis 1!

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