Enoch : an essay on angels

[Richard Amiel McGough]

In the time of Enoch, God brought the Flood upon the earth to destroy the offspring of the fallen angels.

So you believe that God designed the angels with 46 chromosomes and the ability to mate with humans? Why would he do that? It seems like pagan mythology to me. I mean, Zeus could have sex with women or animals and produce fertile offspring.

[gilgal]

I wonder when did man learn to write? And in the beginning I think they expressed by drawing things.

So I wonder if pre-flood civilization learned to write? or was the book on Enoch written after?

The books of Moses Genesis-Deuteronomy must have been completed after since it even records the death of Moses. And it has names of cities named much later such as I think Bethel.

Also the Revelation 12 I believe is referring to after the birth of Christ Satan's will was to devour the child but when he failed then there was war.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I wonder when did man learn to write? And in the beginning I think they expressed by drawing things.

So I wonder if pre-flood civilization learned to write? or was the book on Enoch written after?

The books of Moses Genesis-Deuteronomy must have been completed after since it even records the death of Moses. And it has names of cities named much later such as I think Bethel.

Also the Revelation 12 I believe is referring to after the birth of Christ Satan's will was to devour the child but when he failed then there was war.

Yeah, language start with pictograms, and they came to represent consonants like B is bat and C is for cat, so then we got alphabetic language around 1500 BC according to most scholars I think.

The book of Enoch is very late fiction as far as I know. Like 200 BC.

I agree about Rev 12.

And yeah, there are lots of anachronisms in the Torah. Some folks like to think they were the work of later editors while the basic stuff was written by Moses. I don't think Moses wrote a word of it. It was mostly done probably in bits and pieces between around 1000 BC - 600 BC I think. Geneis 1 is a lot later than Genesis 2. That's why its so much more advanced in style and conception. It's a fascinating study to trace out how it was put together. I highly recommend Who Wrote the Bible by Richard Elliot Friedman. He gives a very convincing overview of the modern scholarship. A few years ago, I would have hated the book because they make the Bible look like something just made up by people, and I "knew" it was designed by God because of the Bible Wheel. I still think the Bible Wheel is valid, but it doesn't matter how it came to be. That's a different question. And the JEPD hypothesis has some powerful evidence in its favor.

[gilgal]

Yeah, language start with pictograms, and they came to represent consonants like B is bat and C is for cat, so then we got alphabetic language around 1500 BC according to most scholars I think.

The book of Enoch is very late fiction as far as I know. Like 200 BC.

I agree about Rev 12.

And yeah, there are lots of anachronisms in the Torah. Some folks like to think they were the work of later editors while the basic stuff was written by Moses. I don't think Moses wrote a word of it. It was mostly done probably in bits and pieces between around 1000 BC - 600 BC I think. Geneis 1 is a lot later than Genesis 2. That's why its so much more advanced in style and conception. It's a fascinating study to trace out how it was put together. I highly recommend Who Wrote the Bible by Richard Elliot Friedman. He gives a very convincing overview of the modern scholarship. A few years ago, I would have hated the book because they make the Bible look like something just made up by people, and I "knew" it was designed by God because of the Bible Wheel. I still think the Bible Wheel is valid, but it doesn't matter how it came to be. That's a different question. And the JEPD hypothesis has some powerful evidence in its favor.

I would doubt that Moses himself wrote the Torah because he's mentioned as a third person. But we know that the book of the law existed in Josiah's time since they found it. It was lost. The Torah was probably a collection of data put together in a chronological order.

It is said that Ezra added a few things such as the 5 verse introduction to Deuteronomy.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I would doubt that Moses himself wrote the Torah because he's mentioned as a third person. But we know that the book of the law existed in Josiah's time since they found it. It was lost. The Torah was probably a collection of data put together in a chronological order.

It is said that Ezra added a few things such as the 5 verse introduction to Deuteronomy.

The story about the loss of the book of the Law is one of the strangest stories in the Bible. How is possible that the people defined by the Torah could have completely forgotten about it??? It doesn't make any sense at all. It's similar to the problem with the fact that nobody was circumcised during the forty years in the desert. What's up with that??? Moses was leading them. Why didn't he tell them to obey the law? Why didn't God mention it? Something fishy is going on in these stories.

Yes, the Jews have a tradition about Ezra - the ready scribe - organizing the OT.

[Craig.Paardekooper]

So you believe that God designed the angels with 46 chromosomes and the ability to mate with humans? Why would he do that? It seems like pagan mythology to me. I mean, Zeus could have sex with women or animals and produce fertile offspring.

Christ was born son of God and son of Man. An incarnation (Christ) results from the crossing of God and human.

Similarly rather more negative incarnations resulted from the crossing of angels with humans (we might call them anti-christs). The resulting offspring were regarded as super-human in many respects.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Christ was born son of God and son of Man. An incarnation (Christ) results from the crossing of God and human.

Similarly rather more negative incarnations resulted from the crossing of angels with humans (we might call them anti-christs). The resulting offspring were regarded as super-human in many respects.

That sounds like a false analogy. Mary was supernaturally impregnated by the Holy Spirit. Unless you are a Mormon, there was no sexual intercourse involved. The theory about fallen angels impregnating women is entirely different. They did it through pseudo-natural sexual intercourse. This implies that God created the angels with the ability to breed with humans. Why would he do that? Where in the Bible does it say that?

[Craig.Paardekooper]

The story about the loss of the book of the Law is one of the strangest stories in the Bible. How is possible that the people defined by the Torah could have completely forgotten about it??? It doesn't make any sense at all. It's similar to the problem with the fact that nobody was circumcised during the forty years in the desert. What's up with that??? Moses was leading them. Why didn't he tell them to obey the law? Why didn't God mention it? Something fishy is going on in these stories.

Things can be forgotten and buried over a single generation is people become apostate enough. Prior to Josiah, many of the people had turned to pagan forms of worship, and the Torah had fallen into neglect - so much so that even the manuscript was mislaid and hidden away in some vault.

Maybe the people were not circumcised in the desert because God had in mind to reject that generation anyway. None of them would see the promised land.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Things can be forgotten and buried over a single generation is people become apostate enough. Prior to Josiah, many of the people had turned to pagan forms of worship, and the Torah had fallen into neglect - so much so that even the manuscript was mislaid and hidden away in some vault.

Maybe the people were not circumcised in the desert because God had in mind to reject that generation anyway. None of them would see the promised land.

Concerning the missing Torah - yes, many people had turned away, but I don't see how that can explain the missing Torah because the prophets were prophesying and they frequently mentioned the it. For example, Isaiah prophesied during the time the law was supposed to be missing and he frequently mentions the law. He plays a big role in 2 Kings 19-20. He prophesied about a hundred years before Josiah and the "rediscovery" of the law.

I still don't understand why Moses or God would allow the children to go uncircumcised. The law says that the children would be "cut off" from Israel if they were not circumcised. It has nothing to do with the fact that their parents would not be allowed into the promised land.

[gilgal]

Concerning the missing Torah - yes, many people had turned away, but I don't see how that can explain the missing Torah because the prophets were prophesying and they frequently mentioned the it. For example, Isaiah prophesied during the time the law was supposed to be missing and he frequently mentions the law. He plays a big role in 2 Kings 19-20. He prophesied about a hundred years before Josiah and the "rediscovery" of the law.

I still don't understand why Moses or God would allow the children to go uncircumcised. The law says that the children would be "cut off" from Israel if they were not circumcised. It has nothing to do with the fact that their parents would not be allowed into the promised land.

Actually which prophets mentioned it? Because most prophets were from before Josiah until Jeremiah. Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi are post Josiah. Refresh my memory but I hardly recall any quote from the Torah from any pre Josiah book. But the New Testament is flooded with quotes.

Also the uncircumcision in the wilderness probably shows that faith was what God was looking for in Israel. That's interesting. Moses wasn't even careful of himself being circumcised. And God almost killed him. That, I wonder why.