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  1. #1
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    Angels in chains of darkness

    The other night I asked my husband what his ideas were on the interpretation of :

    Jude 1: 6 ' And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.' and its close parallel

    2 Peter 2: 4 ' For God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;'.

    My question was: If the angels that were cast out with Satan, are bound until the great day of judgment, where do the demons come from that roam the earth? He said he wasn’t sure, so together we went to the only true source for all our questions, God's Word.

    The key words I focused on common to both verses are darkness, chains, judgment and of course the angels that sinned. From scripture we know that Satan was cast out from heaven because of the sin of pride, and cast down to earth.

    Isaiah 14:12&14 ' How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!' and 14
    'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.'

    Ezekiel 28:16&17 '…. I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God; and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.'17 ' Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground,'

    In Luke 10:18 ' And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.'

    and Revelation 12:9 ' And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, call the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.'

    He took with him the angels that are spoken of in 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1: 6 as being kept in chains of darkness. So the question arises where exactly is this darkness the fallen angels are being kept in?

    Ephesians 6: 12
    speaks of us wrestling against 'the rulers of the darkness of this world 'which to my understanding seems to be saying the demons are 'the rulers' of what? ' the darkness' where? ' this world'. We know that Satan is called: 'the prince of this world' in John 12:31 and 'the god of this world' in 2 Corinthians 4:4

    also in Colossians 1:13, Paul tells us through Christ we are delivered from 'the power of darkness' and Ephesians says 'rulers of darkness' so darkness is spoken of as a place where demons dwell.
    Going back to the question of the angels being cast down to hell and delivered into chains of darkness, lets look again at Isaiah 14 where in verse 12 it speaks of Lucifer being' cut down to the ground' and in verse 15 it says he is' brought down to hell' also in Ezekiel 28: 17 it says of Satan that he is 'cast down to the ground' and in verse 18 it says he will be ' brought to ashes upon the earth'.

    Isaiah and Ezekiel seem to be using the words hell, earth and ground to mean the same place. So the verses in Jude and 2 Peter seem to be saying that the angels who were cast out of heaven with Satan are the ones 'cast down to hell to be kept in chains of darkness until the great day of judgment' they are the 'rulers' or 'princes' of the 'darkness' ( their dwelling place ) of this 'world' ( earth, ground or hell ). They rule the darkness but can never leave the darkness for they are chained (kept) in that realm until the great judgment day.

    We who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb are delivered from the power of darkness and live in the light of Christ.

    My prayer is that all will come to the knowledge of Christ.and live in His light .....Amen

    Rose

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    The other night I asked my husband what his ideas were on the interpretation of :

    Jude 1: 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.” and its close parallel

    2 Peter 2: 4For God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;”.

    My question was: If the angels that were cast out with Satan, are bound until the great day of judgment, where do the demons come from that roam the earth? He said he wasn’t sure, so together we went to the only true source for all our questions, God's Word.

    The key words I focused on common to both verses are darkness, chains, judgment and of course the angels that sinned. From scripture we know that Satan was cast out from heaven because of the sin of pride, and cast down to earth.

    Isaiah 14:12&14How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” and 14
    “I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.”

    Ezekiel 28:16&17 “…. I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God; and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.”17 “ Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground,”

    In Luke 10:18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.”

    and Revelation 12:9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, call the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”

    He took with him the angels that are spoken of in 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1: 6 as being kept in chains of darkness. So the question arises where exactly is this darkness the fallen angels are being kept in?

    Ephesians 6: 12
    speaks of us wrestling against “the rulers of the darkness of this world “which to my understanding seems to be saying the demons are “the rulers” of what? “ the darkness” where? “ this world”. We know that Satan is called: “the prince of this world” in John 12:31 and “the god of this world” in 2 Corinthians 4:4

    also in Colossians 1:13, Paul tells us through Christ we are delivered from “the power of darkness” and Ephesians says “rulers of darkness” so darkness is spoken of as a place where demons dwell.
    Going back to the question of the angels being cast down to hell and delivered into chains of darkness, lets look again at Isaiah 14 where in verse 12 it speaks of Lucifer being” cut down to the ground” and in verse 15 it says he is” brought down to hell” also in Ezekiel 28: 17 it says of Satan that he is ”cast down to the ground” and in verse 18 it says he will be “ brought to ashes upon the earth”.

    Isaiah and Ezekiel seem to be using the words hell, earth and ground to mean the same place. So the verses in Jude and 2 Peter seem to be saying that the angels who were cast out of heaven with Satan are the ones “cast down to hell to be kept in chains of darkness until the great day of judgment” they are the “rulers” or “princes” of the “darkness” ( their dwelling place ) of this “world” ( earth, ground or hell ). They rule the darkness but can never leave the darkness for they are chained (kept) in that realm until the great judgment day.

    We who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb are delivered from the power of darkness and live in the light of Christ.

    My prayer is that all will come to the knowledge of Christ.and live in His light .....Amen

    Rose
    Hi Rose

    From what I understand 'angel' means messenger of God and can refer to anyone human or heavenly. How do you know the angels mentioned in the Peter and Jude fell with Satan. How do you make the link

    My Bible (NASB) does not use the words 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 12 but uses 'star of the morning, son of the dawn' ...why couldnt that passage refer to Adam or even the physical nation of Israel - they both had special places with God which they subsequently lost (I believe)
    Last edited by Abigail; 06-17-2007 at 12:03 PM.

  3. #3
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    Hello Abigail
    Thanks for the reply
    I very grateful for feedback, since this is a new idea for me too!

    The Bible seems to be somewhat limited in its references to fallen angels,
    so I have drawn my conclusions from the few verses that I know of.

    Revelation 12 gives me the biggest clue as to who these angels are that sinned.

    Revelation12:7-9 "And war broke out in heaven:Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8)but they did not privail, nor was place found for them in heaven any longer 9) so the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    It says that place in heaven for the angels who fought with Satan was no more, which connects to Jude 1:6 where it says" they did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode"NKJ

    Thats the best link I can give you, it also seems pretty clear that the angels that are spoken of are not human but celestial beings, both good and bad.

    Rose

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello Abigail
    Thanks for the reply
    I very grateful for feedback, since this is a new idea for me too!

    The Bible seems to be somewhat limited in its references to fallen angels,
    so I have drawn my conclusions from the few verses that I know of.

    Revelation 12 gives me the biggest clue as to who these angels are that sinned.

    Revelation12:7-9 "And war broke out in heaven:Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8)but they did not privail, nor was place found for them in heaven any longer 9) so the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    It says that place in heaven for the angels who fought with Satan was no more, which connects to Jude 1:6 where it says" they did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode"NKJ

    Thats the best link I can give you, it also seems pretty clear that the angels that are spoken of are not human but celestial beings, both good and bad.

    Rose
    Hi Rose

    It is very late here at the moment - gone midnight so I am just about to turn in for the night and would need some time to think about all this. However can I just ask how you account for the Nephilim (Genesis 6:4) ...I have a little keynote in my Bible which says Nephilim comes from the verb naphal (5307) meaning 'to fall' - though it goes on to say that it is often associated with violence and hence often translated 'overthrow fall upon' - in Numbers 13 these Nephilim are mentioned again as being very big and strong

    Also who are the sons of God who came in to the daughters of men and had children with them (Genesis 6:2-4) ...doesnt that sound to you like people who are leaving their own habitation and not keeping their first estate

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    Hi all

    How interesting to see someone asking the very questions I have been asking for the last year. It began when I noticed that Satan was bound in the abyss for a thousand years in Revelation 20. I then noticed the two texts from Jude and 2 Peter and wondered about a connection.

    Like Rose, the place that I believe the angels are bound to is a place of darkness, not a literal darkness, but a spiritual darkness that exists outside of the Light and Presence of God. I wrote a short paper on this but no one I sent it to responded to it. I posted the question on a religious forum and those who responded stated their belief that Peter and Jude were writing about the angels who comingled with the daughters of men before the flood that produced the nephelim.

    Having always believed that 'the sons of God' in Genesis 6 refered to the sons of Seth, I rejected this idea that angels could in any way mingle with women in such a way, much less have offspring. Now I'm not so sure. Lately, I have read 1Enoch and feel sure the Peter and Jude were referring to angels comingling with humans since it is mentioned everywhere in 1Enoch. There are references in Jude to other passages in 1Enoch, which has me leaning in this direction.

    I would then say that they were bound THEN at the flood, based on God's foreknowledge of what His Son would do at Calvary where the fallen angels became legally bound to the darkness where they were already consigned.

    On the whole, then, tartaroun, in St. Peter, is the same as riptein ev tartaron, to throw into Tartarus, in Homer, only rectifying the poet's mistake of Tartarus being in the bowels of the earth, and recurring to the original sense of that word above explained, which when applied to spirits must be interpreted spiritually; and thus tartarwsav will import that God cast the apostate angels out of his presence into that zofov tou skotouv, blackness of darkness, (verse 17; Jude 13,) where they will be for ever banished from the light of his countenance, and from the beatifying influence of the ever blessed LORD, as truly as a person plunged into the torpid boundary of this created system would be from the light of the sun and the benign operations of the material heavens." By chains of darkness we are to understand a place of darkness and wretchedness, from which it is impossible for them to escape. – Adam Clarke http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarke2pet2.htm
    I find a twofold level of punishment of the fallen angels in 2Peter and Jude:
    1-Reserved in chains of darkness
    2-Final Judgment

    Revelation 20 follows this twofold divine sentence:
    1-Bound by chains in the abyss (darkness)
    2-Final Judgment

    I believe that this twofold sentence is prophesied in Isaiah 24:21-23. Isaiah 24 is clearly a prophecy of the Day of the Lord is it not? I find that FIRST they are put in prison awaiting judgment. Here I see this twofold sentence of being Bound and then judged.
    *****************************
    Part of the paper I wrote:

    ISAIAH 24:21-23
    21 It shall come to pass in that day that the LORD will punish on high the host of exalted ones, and on the earth the kings of the earth.
    22 They will be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and will be shut up in the prison; after many days they will be punished.
    23 Then the moon will be disgraced and the sun ashamed;
    for the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem and before His elders, gloriously.


    Isaiah 24 as a whole clearly portrays The Day of the LORD or Second Coming.
    Verse 21 tells us that it is “in that day” that the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high AND the kings of the earth on the earth. “That day” is the Day of the Lord, the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. Does this verse teach the punishment begins on the Day of the Lord or does the punishment end on the day of the Lord?

    According to verse 22, “as prisoners”, both the hosts on high AND the Kings of the earth will be “gathered in the pit and will be shut up in prison, and after many days, they will be punished”. This verse reveals that both the host on high and the kings on earth will experience the same fate…. together, at the same time. Both enemies of God will be “as” prisoners in a dungeon. Isaiah is using earthly imagery to illustrate spiritual reality.

    The reality is that the fallen hosts of Heaven and the fallen kings of the earth are imprisoned, at the same time, in the realm of darkness where the Light of God’s presence and love doesn’t shine as opposed to a literal location. This is the only way to understand how both spiritual beings and earthly beings can be imprisoned in the same place at the same time.

    The kings of the earth are destroyed at the second coming of Jesus. Shouldn’t the fallen angels also experience their destruction at the same time? According this passage in Isaiah they do.

    Verse 22 reveals that this imprisonment is not THE punishment. God’s enemies are only confined “…and after many days, they will be punished.” In other words, the imprisonment for ‘many days’ has to happen before The Day of the LORD, for it is in THAT DAY that “the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high AND the kings of the earth on the earth.”(v. 21)

    This text in Isaiah seems to be the foundation of the teaching of the Apostles regarding the punishment of the fallen angels including Satan. Isaiah 24:21-23 teaches a two-stage punishment that we find in 2Peter 2:4, Jude 6 and Revelation 20:1-3:

    Imprisonment -----> Judgment

    This also means that there is recapitulation in Isaiah 24:21-23. The key to seeing the recapitulation is seen in the word “punish” that in Isaiah means destruction:

    Verse 21 is a general statement that reveals the punishment (destruction) of God’s enemies, both earthly and heavenly will occur on the Day of LORD.

    Verse 22 recapitulates and teaches that first there will be an imprisonment for many days before the punishment of destruction on the Day of the LORD. (Punishment in this passage of Isaiah refers to their destruction in harmony with the rest of Isaiah 24. See also Isaiah 13:11; 26:14,21).

    Verse 23 teaches that this punishment of destruction occurs at the same time when the sun and moon are darkened. (The darkening of the sun and moon occur only at the Second Advent of Jesus Christ according to the Olivet discourse in Matthew 24 and Revelation 6:12.) (See the Commentary by Edward J. Young, “The Book of Isaiah”, Vol.2/Chapters 19-39, pp. 178-183 for a fuller and technical confirmation of this interpretation.)

    So Isaiah recapitulates and mentions what occurs before they are destroyed. They are, as it were, locked up, or reserved, for the day of their punishment or destruction.

    This interpretation provides the evidence that John is also recapitulating in Revelation 20 and following Isaiah’s apocalyptic prophecy:

    Revelation 19:17-21 Destruction of God’s earthly enemies (the kings of the earth).

    Revelation 20:1-6 Recapitulation revealing the imprisonment of Satan for many days (1000 years) as saints are promoted to reign in Satan’s place during this same time period.

    Revelation 20:7-10 “After many days” (1000 years) Satan is destroyed at the same time as the kings of the earth.
    ********************************************

    So I have ended up with the fallen angels, including Satan, "legally" bound at calvary, although they were bound in the darkness much earlier....when they sinned. They remain there like a raging lion knowing their time is short. They are not able to deceive the nations ....yet, until God releases them for a little while at the very end for one hour. (I believe that the fallen angels are restrained from deceiving the nations in order to gather the nations into one empire in order to attack God's people. That is what the chaining is symbolic of. We see Satan in Revelation 9, 16 and then 20:7-10 released and gathering the nations to fight against God by first attacking His people.)

    I'm open for opinions and differing ideas until I get this right. God bless. BB
    Last edited by Brother Bob; 06-18-2007 at 10:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Bob View Post
    Having always believed that 'the sons of God' in Genesis 6 refered to the sons of Seth, I rejected this idea that angels could in any way mingle with women in such a way, much less have offspring. Now I'm not so sure. Lately, I have read
    Hi BB

    why couldnt the sons of Seth be regarded as angels if they were messengers of God. Surely an angel can be human or heavenly.

    Quote Originally Posted by BB

    I believe that this twofold sentence is prophesied in Isaiah 24:21-23. Isaiah 24 is clearly a prophecy of the Day of the Lord is it not? I find that FIRST they are put in prison awaiting judgment. Here I see this twofold sentence of being Bound and then judged.
    *****************************
    Part of the paper I wrote:

    ISAIAH 24:21-23
    21 It shall come to pass in that day that the LORD will punish on high the host of exalted ones, and on the earth the kings of the earth.
    22 They will be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and will be shut up in the prison; after many days they will be punished.
    23 Then the moon will be disgraced and the sun ashamed;
    for the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem and before His elders, gloriously.


    Isaiah 24 as a whole clearly portrays The Day of the LORD or Second Coming.
    Verse 21 tells us that it is “in that day” that the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high AND the kings of the earth on the earth.
    In verse 21 you use both 'exalted ones' and 'host of heaven'. I have a commentary on Isaiah by Joseph A Alexander in which it says of verse 21 'it may be doubted whether there is any reference to the host of heaven at all.' Apparantly the hebrew word used is a relative expression and although applied to heaven in verse 18 is applied to earth or human society in verse 4. The commentator seems to think that the context in this instance indicates that it is merely a strong figure for differing ranks or degrees of dignity on earth.

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    Hi Abigail

    why couldnt the sons of Seth be regarded as angels if they were messengers of God. Surely an angel can be human or heavenly.
    Certainly the Hebrew for "sons of God" can be used for messengers, but the word is used extensively for angels. There is debate over who the 'sons of God' are in Genesis 6. 1Enoch clearly interprets them to be fallen angels in Genesis 6, and clearly the Apostles held 1Enoch in high regard. It appears both Peter and Jude were referring to 1Enoch when they both stated that 'the angels who left their estate and sinned were chained in darkness'.

    In verse 21 you use both 'exalted ones' and 'host of heaven'. I have a commentary on Isaiah by Joseph A Alexander in which it says of verse 21 'it may be doubted whether there is any reference to the host of heaven at all.' Apparantly the hebrew word used is a relative expression and although applied to heaven in verse 18 is applied to earth or human society in verse 4. The commentator seems to think that the context in this instance indicates that it is merely a strong figure for differing ranks or degrees of dignity on earth.
    Yes, there is unfortunately differing uses of this Hebrew word. I think looking at the context of verse 21 we see a contrast. The 'high ones on high' are contrasted to the 'kings (or high ones) on the earth'.

    Here is the blueletter Bible site on word used:

    marowm
    1) height

    a) height, elevation, elevated place

    1) in a high place (adv)

    b) height

    c) proudly (adv)

    d) of nobles (fig.)

    AV — high 29, height 10, above 5, high places 4, highest places 1, dignity 1, haughty 1, loftily 1, high ones 1, upward 1

    Isa 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name [is] Holy; I dwell in the high and holy [place], with him also [that is] of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

    Here we see Isaiah using the word to describe God and His dwelling place.

    Jamison,Fausset and Brown comments:
    21. host of … high ones—the heavenly host, that is, either the visible host of heaven (the present economy of nature, affected by the sun, moon, and stars, the objects of idolatry, being abolished, Isa 65:17; 60:19, simultaneously with the corrupt polity of men); or rather, "the invisible rulers of the darkness of this world," as the antithesis to "kings of the earth" shows. Angels, moreover, preside, as it were, over kingdoms of the world (Da 10:13, 20, 21).

    I think the contrast with Kings of the Earth favors heavily the interpretation that these 'high ones' are the fallen angels who are ruling over nations as seen in the Daniel 10:13 verse above.

    regards,
    BB

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abigail View Post
    Hi Rose

    From what I understand 'angel' means messenger of God and can refer to anyone human or heavenly. How do you know the angels mentioned in the Peter and Jude fell with Satan. How do you make the link

    My Bible (NASB) does not use the words 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 12 but uses 'star of the morning, son of the dawn' ...why couldnt that passage refer to Adam or even the physical nation of Israel - they both had special places with God which they subsequently lost (I believe)
    Hi Abigail,

    You bring up some very important points that touch upon the question of how to interpret the Bible. First, we must do a basic word study, then we must look at context.

    In the OT, the Hebrew malak (messenger/angel) is often used to describe humans (e.g. 2 Sam 2:5 "And David sent messengers [malakim]"). But in the NT, I could not find any reference to a human as an "angelos" except when quoting the OT, in which case the word was translated as "messenger." The Gospels quote Mal 3:1 "Behold I send my messenger/malak/angelos" and James quotes Joshua about Rahab receiving the messengers/malakim/angeloi. Of course, part of this could be due to the translators imposing their interpretations on the text. If they had thought Peter and Jude were speaking of humans rather than supernatural spirit-beings, they would have translated "angelos" as "messengers" rather than "angels." We must always remember that translators must make theological and interpretational decisions that influence the meaning of the text.

    Your specific question concerning "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14 where you asked "why couldn't that passage refer to Adam or even the physical nation of Israel?" touches an essential aspect of the correct interpretation. The plain meaning of the passage actually does speak of a human. Isaiah 14 is part of the "burden of Babylon" that began in Isa 13. The literal sense of Isa 14 is a prophecy against the human king of Babylon. This is made explicit in Isa 14:4 "That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!"

    But is the meaning of that prophecy restricted to the king of Babylon, now long dead? I think the answer is pretty obviously "no." Isaiah was given a prophecy with two interpretations; one natural that applied roughly to his time, and one spiritual or typological that applied to far future and/or heavenly realities. The king of Babylon typified Satan. Exactly the same thing is seen in the verse from Ezekiel 28 that Rose quoted which was directed against the human king of Tyre, who also was a type of Satan.

    So the question now is "how do we know when a passage should be interpreted as far future prophecy or spiritually or typologically? There is only one source that settles the question with no ambiguity - the New Testament. For example, people have argued endlessly that the "virgin" of Isaiah 7:14 should be rendered "young woman." Though they may be correct that the broadest significance of the Hebrew "almah" would be "young woman", Christians need not doubt the proper understanding because it is given explicitly in the NT where the Greek word for a true virgin is used to translate the prophecy. Thus, the NT interprets Isa 7:14 as a prophecy of the virgin birth with no ambiguity.

    Though the question you ask about the "angels" of 2 Pet and Jude is not addressed in such a direct and conclusive fashion in the NT, I believe a careful review of all the relevant passages would result in the traditional interpretation that they were speaking of angels that fell with Satan. Its really a question of finding the best integrated complex of associated ideas - the "sum of the evidence" or the "cumulative case" - that becomes convincing in some of the more ambiguous situations.

    Richard

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hi Abigail,

    In the OT, the Hebrew malak (messenger/angel) is often used to describe humans (e.g. 2 Sam 2:5 "And David sent messengers [malakim]"). But in the NT, I could not find any reference to a human as an "angelos" except when quoting the OT, in which case the word was translated as "messenger." The Gospels quote Mal 3:1 "Behold I send my messenger/malak/angelos" and James quotes Joshua about Rahab receiving the messengers/malakim/angeloi. Of course, part of this could be due to the translators imposing their interpretations on the text. If they had thought Peter and Jude were speaking of humans rather than supernatural spirit-beings, they would have translated "angelos" as "messengers" rather than "angels." We must always remember that translators must make theological and interpretational decisions that influence the meaning of the text.
    Ok, ...interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    But is the meaning of that prophecy restricted to the king of Babylon, now long dead? I think the answer is pretty obviously "no."
    I agree whole-heartedly that the prophecy in Isaiah 14 is not restricted to the King of Babylon, but my concern was that it was maybe not referring to Satan (who of course fits the bill in that he is an enemy of The Most High God ), but fits as well to Adam and ultimately the physical nation of Israel with it's physical priesthood ie those who were considered Israel and God's people because of being physically born from Jacob's line. So what I am trying to say is that in the beginning Satan deceived Eve and both her and Adam ate. The Bible says Eve was deceived but it doesnt say anything about Adam being deceived. Does that mean that Adam knew what the serpent was doing but maybe thought he could escape punishment by blaming Eve, so he could eat the fruit and get whatever power it had and then Eve could take the rap (see Genesis 3;13) so if that is the case then Adam Like the king of Babylon can be seen both as (1) oppressing God's people in that he is basically prepared for Eve to die in the hope that she would take the blame and he get off by blaming her for giving it to him, and (2) an enemy of God in that he wants to take what God has not given to him. Then later after Jacob, many of the phyical Israel were enemies of God being corrupt and oppressive ...even those of the leaders and those in the priesthood, so they can be typified as a king of Babylon to be thrown down so that the true people of God are no longer oppressed

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    So the question now is "how do we know when a passage should be interpreted as far future prophecy or spiritually or typologically? There is only one source that settles the question with no ambiguity - the New Testament. For example, people have argued endlessly that the "virgin" of Isaiah 7:14 should be rendered "young woman." Though they may be correct that the broadest significance of the Hebrew "almah" would be "young woman", Christians need not doubt the proper understanding because it is given explicitly in the NT where the Greek word for a true virgin is used to translate the prophecy. Thus, the NT interprets Isa 7:14 as a prophecy of the virgin birth with no ambiguity.
    I think the ultimate defeat of the enemies of God and oppressors of his people are a big theme in NT

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Though the question you ask about the "angels" of 2 Pet and Jude is not addressed in such a direct and conclusive fashion in the NT, I believe a careful review of all the relevant passages would result in the traditional interpretation that they were speaking of angels that fell with Satan. Its really a question of finding the best integrated complex of associated ideas - the "sum of the evidence" or the "cumulative case" - that becomes convincing in some of the more ambiguous situations.

    Richard
    Before Adam and Eve ate the fruit they had direct communion with God in a way which we dont have fully right now (or so I believe) ...do you think this extra spirit-tuned dimension they enjoyed could allow them to be referred to as 'angels' when spoken of in the NT. Do you think 2 Peter 2:4 could be speaking of Adam and Eve when they sinned ...that would fit the chronology of verse 5-7 well.

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    Jude 14 "Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, 'Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.'

    From 1Enoch:

    1:9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
    To execute judgement upon all,
    And to destroy all the ungodly:

    [Chapter 6]

    1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.'

    [Chapter 7]

    1 And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms 2 and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they 3 became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed 4 all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against 5 them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and 6 fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.

    *********************************
    To tell you the truth I'm struggling with this idea that fallen angels comingled with humans and produced giants, but doesn't this seem to be the case when you read Genesis 6 and then 1 Enoch? And then see Jude hold up 1 Enoch by quoting it?

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