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  1. #1

    What Are The Signs?

    What is "the sign," and what are "signs?"



    Luke 21:5-7 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, He said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And they asked Him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

    What sign heralds the last day for the above event hasn't yet occurred?

    Jesus answered....


    21:22-24 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


    Who is the wrath upon? Upon those "with child and that give suck," meaning those that not only fall into idolatry with the fake christ but help his vile religion. To put it another way, they take the mark of the beast in their foreheads (believe his lies so they are with child) and in their hands (give suck, nurture his deception). They fall into apostasy and are captive to Satan...that is happening now for Jerusalem is being trodden by the Gentiles and by "Jerusalem" I don't refer to the tiny speck of a city in the east.

    21:25-28 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


    What, or who are the signs? He tells us....


    Isaiah 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

    The prophets, such as Isaiah, and some of God's children ARE the signs! They are the signs in the sun for they/we are children of the Light, we are In the Light, and the Light/Sun dwelleth In us so as He is The Light of the world, we too are the light of the world.

    John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

    Matthew 5:12-14 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.


    The city...Jerusalem, the hill...mount Zion. People are His signs, not places!


    Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.



    We are the "signs in the sun," for we dwell IN Him and He IN us....but, there are also "signs in the moon." Who are moon dwellers?

    Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    Psalm 74:3-4 Lift up thy feet unto the perpetual desolations; even all that the enemy hath done wickedly in the sanctuary. Thine enemies roar in the midst of thy congregations; they set up their ensigns for signs.

    Ensings, en-signs for signs. Ensigns can be a mark (as in the mark of Cain...which is, I believe, the first mark of the beast). Who are the enemies in the "midst of thy congregations?" Who roars as the lion, speaking words of deception "in the sanctuary?" The "ensigns," those with the mark, those false prophets, those fake "signs" are wolves in sheep's clothing. Signs IN the moon/of the night/darkness. The ensigns are those with the mark of the beast that traffic in the souls of men and where are they? In the midst of our congregations, in our sanctuaries roaring like the young lions....lies, deception delivered in so holy a manner.


    11 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

    The working of Satan has been going on for a long time but soon, after his "working" comes much stronger deception! Signs in the moon, signs in the stars. Satan's powerful forces masquerading as children of God...lying wonders. Know them. Mark them. Understand God has given you power over them...over the scorpions, locusts, swine, wolves in sheep's clothing, false prophets, the blind leading the blind.



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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    We are the "signs in the sun," for we dwell IN Him and He IN us....but, there are also "signs in the moon." Who are moon dwellers?
    Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    Psalm 74:3-4 Lift up thy feet unto the perpetual desolations; even all that the enemy hath done wickedly in the sanctuary. Thine enemies roar in the midst of thy congregations; they set up their ensigns for signs.
    Ensings, en-signs for signs. Ensigns can be a mark (as in the mark of Cain...which is, I believe, the first mark of the beast). Who are the enemies in the "midst of thy congregations?" Who roars as the lion, speaking words of deception "in the sanctuary?" The "ensigns," those with the mark, those false prophets, those fake "signs" are wolves in sheep's clothing. Signs IN the moon/of the night/darkness. The ensigns are those with the mark of the beast that traffic in the souls of men and where are they? In the midst of our congregations, in our sanctuaries roaring like the young lions....lies, deception delivered in so holy a manner.
    11 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    The working of Satan has been going on for a long time but soon, after his "working" comes much stronger deception! Signs in the moon, signs in the stars. Satan's powerful forces masquerading as children of God...lying wonders. Know them. Mark them. Understand God has given you power over them...over the scorpions, locusts, swine, wolves in sheep's clothing, false prophets, the blind leading the blind.
    So now you assert that there are "moon dwellers" but you dispute that God ever "dwelt" in the Temple in Jerusalem? Brilliant use of words!

    And your typology is all wrong. Christians have always understood that the Moon is a symbol of the Church which reflects the Light of the Sun/Christ. We bear faithful witness to the Light of Christ just as the Moon bears witness to the Light of the Sun during the night:
    Psalm 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed [the Church] shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
    Furthermore, your thesis that this is all future has blinded you to the words of Christ:
    Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
    The death and resurrection of Christ was the only sign given to that wicked generation, which is the same generation that saw "all things fulfilled" as it is written:
    Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies [66 AD], then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people [first century Israel]. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ... 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
    History declares the Words of Christ fulfilled. Why would anyone want to deny the great and mighty fulfillment of his words and incontrovertible proof of Christianity that they provide? There are two possible reasons. 1) Atheists do not want to believe, so they deny God's Word. 2) Futurists want to create their own doctrines and create time-lines to predict the end of the world, and they can't do that if Christ's words are true.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    So now you assert that there are "moon dwellers" but you dispute that God ever "dwelt" in the Temple in Jerusalem? Brilliant use of words!


    Indeed I do. Why do I do so? Because IT IS WRITTEN. Not all understand but still...it is written.



    And your typology is all wrong. Christians have always understood that the Moon is a symbol of the Church which reflects the Light of the Sun/Christ. We bear faithful witness to the Light of Christ just as the Moon bears witness to the Light of the Sun during the night:
    Psalm 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed [the Church] shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.



    The church is filled with His Light. The moon has no light and is only able to reflect His. In other words...the moon is symbolic of the false christ.



    Furthermore, your thesis that this is all future has blinded you to the words of Christ:
    Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
    The death and resurrection of Christ was the only sign given to that wicked generation, which is the same generation that saw "all things fulfilled" as it is written:
    Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies [66 AD], then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people [first century Israel]. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ... 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
    History declares the Words of Christ fulfilled. Why would anyone want to deny the great and mighty fulfillment of his words and incontrovertible proof of Christianity that they provide? There are two possible reasons. 1) Atheists do not want to believe, so they deny God's Word. 2) Futurists want to create their own doctrines and create time-lines to predict the end of the world, and they can't do that if Christ's words are true.


    History does not declare the fulfillment. Your doctrine does and your doctrine is mistaken.



    .

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    Indeed I do. Why do I do so? Because IT IS WRITTEN. Not all understand but still...it is written.
    And it is also written that "someone" dwelt in the Temple made of stone:

    Matthew 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

    To whom does "him that dwelleth therein" refer?

    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    The church is filled with His Light. The moon has no light and is only able to reflect His. In other words...the moon is symbolic of the false christ.
    Great! Let's try your brilliant interpretation:
    Psalm 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon [false christ], and as a faithful witness in heaven.
    I am humbled by your awesome insight into the true meaning of Scripture.

    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    History does not declare the fulfillment. Your doctrine does and your doctrine is mistaken.
    If that were true, you'd be able to show my errors with solid biblical facts. As yet, you have not even tried. On the contrary, you have avoided answering the simplest of questions concerning the great prophecy that was fulfilled, namely,

    Why did Christ predict the destruction of the Temple buildings if their destruction in 70 AD had nothing to do with his prophecy?

    Still waiting for an answer! Come on Judi ... give it a shot!
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    And it is also written that "someone" dwelt in the Temple made of stone:

    Matthew 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

    To whom does "him that dwelleth therein" refer?

    The question is not who is the One that dwelleth therein. We know that is Christ. It is to know what temple He dwells in for He dwells in many, me included. Did you see any mention of a "temple made of stone?" I didn't.



    Great! Let's try your brilliant interpretation:
    Psalm 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon [false christ], and as a faithful witness in heaven.
    I am humbled by your awesome insight into the true meaning of Scripture.


    What insight is required...awesome or not? The throne of Christ is established forever. The moon too is established before Him, as long as He allows it.

    Psalm 72:5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.

    The moon has his purpose, as do the tares. Satan is His servant
    .

    Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.




    If that were true, you'd be able to show my errors with solid biblical facts. As yet, you have not even tried. On the contrary, you have avoided answering the simplest of questions concerning the great prophecy that was fulfilled, namely,

    Why did Christ predict the destruction of the Temple buildings if their destruction in 70 AD had nothing to do with his prophecy?

    Still waiting for an answer! Come on Judi ... give it a shot!


    There is no need. You have been answered as I felt I was to answer. Now, it is up to God to open your understanding.


    .

  6. #6
    Whirlwind wrote,

    The question is not who is the One that dwelleth therein. We know that is Christ. It is to know what temple He dwells in for He dwells in many, me included. Did you see any mention of a "temple made of stone?" I didn't.
    Here we go again!!!
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    Here we go again!!!


    Sorry....I couldn't help it. Truth is truth and the temple is the temple...and the one in which He dwells is not of stone. So sayeth the Lord!

    I'll add to that, I have noticed on forums that both preterist and rapturist take every topic back to their respective corners. There is so much to learn, to teach, to discuss within His Word and yet...it's all about those two false doctrines. Rapture and the end of the world in 70AD. I've posted a number of topics and they still revert to their pet (I almost wrote delusions but that's been used so much already) beliefs.


    .
    Last edited by whirlwind; 02-13-2011 at 12:05 PM. Reason: additional thought

  8. #8
    Whirlwind wrote,

    Sorry....I couldn't help it. Truth is truth and the temple is the temple...and the one in which He dwells is not of stone. So sayeth the Lord!

    I'll add to that, I have noticed on forums that both preterist and rapturist take every topic back to their respective corners. There is so much to learn, to teach, to discuss within His Word and yet...it's all about those two false doctrines. Rapture and the end of the world in 70AD. I've posted a number of topics and they still revert to their pet (I almost wrote delusions but that's been used so much already) beliefs.
    I understand

    There are more than two false doctrines, but as you say the "rapture" is another that is greatly misunderstood by those who hold to a futurist position. That is a pre, mid, post trib rapture. They are all biblically wrong, but I'm not going to go into that, neither will I debate the issue.

    I also do not believe that every thing was fulfilled in 70 A.D. as many on this forum know, and now you know Be good--

    God bless---Twospirits
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    And it is also written that "someone" dwelt in the Temple made of stone:

    Matthew 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

    To whom does "him that dwelleth therein" refer?
    The question is not who is the One that dwelleth therein. We know that is Christ. It is to know what temple He dwells in for He dwells in many, me included. Did you see any mention of a "temple made of stone?" I didn't.
    Right ... you did not "see" any mention of the physical Temple in Christ's discussion about the physical gifts placed upon the physical altar in the physical Temple:
    Matthew 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
    If Christ called them fools and blind for failing to see such plain truths, I wonder what he would say to you Judi. Your interpretation of the Bible are an abomination.

    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Great! Let's try your brilliant interpretation:
    Psalm 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon [false christ], and as a faithful witness in heaven.
    I am humbled by your awesome insight into the true meaning of Scripture.
    What insight is required...awesome or not? The throne of Christ is established forever. The moon too is established before Him, as long as He allows it.
    So you now you insist that the moon in that passage really does apply to the anti-christ, and that he is a "faithful witness in heaven?"

    Like I said, you interpretations are an abomination of both intellect and Scripture.

    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    If that were true, you'd be able to show my errors with solid biblical facts. As yet, you have not even tried. On the contrary, you have avoided answering the simplest of questions concerning the great prophecy that was fulfilled, namely,

    Why did Christ predict the destruction of the Temple buildings if their destruction in 70 AD had nothing to do with his prophecy?

    Still waiting for an answer! Come on Judi ... give it a shot!
    There is no need. You have been answered as I felt I was to answer. Now, it is up to God to open your understanding.
    Great. It is my belief that God wants your lies to be exposed in a way that will leave no doubt for anyone who ever looks up you name on the internet. Your obstinate refusal to speak truth on this question has been thoroughly documented. There is now a permanent record on the internet that you have chosen to allow substantiated accusations of lying to stand with absolutely attempt at any refutation whatsoever.

    So be it. It's your witness that is at stake. Not mine.

    It looks like you are hoping to be as much a "faithful witness" as your interpretation of the moon in Psalm 89:37.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    I understand
    There are more than two false doctrines, but as you say the "rapture" is another that is greatly misunderstood by those who hold to a futurist position. That is a pre, mid, post trib rapture. They are all biblically wrong, but I'm not going to go into that, neither will I debate the issue.


    Yes, there are more than two false doctrines but I see those two as the big ones. None of us have all truth no matter how much we study and love the Lord. Will anyone have the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth before this whole grand and wonderful life of man comes to a close?



    I also do not believe that every thing was fulfilled in 70 A.D. as many on this forum know, and now you know Be good--

    God bless---Twospirits


    Yes, and as you know, nor do I but...many things have happened as prophesied for we near the end of this age (I know from your post that you don't agree) but I believe that is what the Scriptures tell us.

    Interesting times.


    God bless you too....Whirlwind



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