sign, sealed, and delivered

[TheForgiven]

Proponents of the Futurist doctrine must explain this pass.

Luke 21:20-21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Jesus said to the Apostles, "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies..." and again, "These are the DAYS OF VENGEANCE [i.e. Day of the Lord] that ALL THINGS which are written MAY BE FULFILLED"

Critical thinking, but easy understanding.

Question: Was Jerusalem surrounded by armies in the first century?

Answer: YES

Question: Doesn't this mean that "All Things which are written" must be fulfilled during that time?

Answer: Yes

Question: Can Jesus be referring to a future surrounding of Jerusalem not applicable to the first century?

Answer: No possible chance.

Question: Since Jesus tied the surrounding of Jerusalem with the temple's destruction, doesn't this mean we (Preterist) are correct in showing that Jesus fulfilled all in the first century?

Answer: You know that's a solid yes.

Conclusion: All was fulfilled in the first century.

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Proponents of the Futurist doctrine must explain this pass.

Jesus said to the Apostles, "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies..." and again, "These are the DAYS OF VENGEANCE [i.e. Day of the Lord] that ALL THINGS which are written MAY BE FULFILLED"

Critical thinking, but easy understanding.

Question: Was Jerusalem surrounded by armies in the first century?

Answer: YES

Question: Doesn't this mean that "All Things which are written" must be fulfilled during that time?

Answer: Yes

Question: Can Jesus be referring to a future surrounding of Jerusalem not applicable to the first century?

Answer: No possible chance.

Question: Since Jesus tied the surrounding of Jerusalem with the temple's destruction, doesn't this mean we (Preterist) are correct in showing that Jesus fulfilled all in the first century?

Answer: You know that's a solid yes.

Conclusion: All was fulfilled in the first century.

Joe

Hey Joe,


Excellent, clear, and simple argument. I would add that you conclusion is confirmed by Daniel 12:6-7:

Daniel 12:6-7 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

But I have one question I hope you and the others will address. The only argument against you conclusion seems to be the idea that the phrase "all things which are written" should be interpreted not absolutely, but only as applying to all those things written concerning the end of the Jewish age, and that other things such as the "restitution of all things" and the "second coming" and the "general resurrection" are not included. I don't think that is correct, but it needs to be addressed.

Also - a note for the forum: I ate some chicken yesterday that was left out too long and I have been really sick for the last 24 hours. I hope to get more energy to post more tomorrow.

God bless!

Richard

[wstruse]

Hello Joe,


Luke 21:6-7 6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Luke 21:20-22 is in direct response to the question asked by Yashua’s disciples of when the Temple would be destroyed. That is important context. Note the next verse.

Luke 21:23 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

What people? Which land?

If Jerusalem is 'trodden down of the Gentiles' until 'the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled' this directly implies that at some point Jerusalem will no longer be 'trodden down'. At some point after Jerusalem is destroyed the times of the Gentiles will come to an end. When do you think the time of the Gentiles will end? When did the time of the Gentiles begin?

Luke 21:24 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

I see Luke 21:1-24 as prophecy spoken to the Jewish people and describing what is going to happen from Yashua’s time up until the start of the time of the Gentiles. I see Luke 21:25-27 as describing what is to take place at the end of or after the time of the Gentiles is complete.

Luke 21:25-27 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


Warm Regards,
Wstruse

[wstruse]

Richard,

I hope you feel better soon.

Warm Regards,
Wstruse

[TheForgiven]

Hello Joe,


Luke 21:6-7 6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Luke 21:20-22 is in direct response to the question asked by Yashua’s disciples of when the Temple would be destroyed. That is important context. Note the next verse.

Luke 21:23 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

What people? Which land?

Hello wstruse,

That's a great point. And I'll add to it. The temple's destruction was the entire context of the passage.

If we treat the questions (from any gospel) as applicable to three specific moments in time, that causes us to be confused. In fact, when many of us picked up the Bible for the very first time, and began to read these passages, our minds already had a preconieved notion of what time frame those questions is dealing with. That's the cause of for error.

The questions were asked in response to Christ speaking of the temple, so the answers are all centered around the temple.

I've also established before that the Apostles were not asking "When Jesus would return" because they didn't have a clue He was ever leaving. He was the Messiah man, and He's not going anywhere. Remember when He was arrested, they all lost hope. Remember when two of His disciples were walking, and Jesus walked with them though they didn't recognize Him, they were despressed and said, "We were hoping He was the one [i.e. The Messiah]". And considering the three questions were asked days before His crucifixion, it makes absolutely no sense to believe they were asking when Jesus would return. Rather, they were asking when the temple was going to be destroyed, and the "Signs of the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom" were noted through the surrounding of the armies against Jerusalem, and the miraculous events which took place during that time.

In conclusion I sternly believe that the Apostles were asking about the time-frame of the temple's destruction, and how His [Jesus] coming Kingdom would fulfill "all these things". The destruction of Jerusalem was the sign that the "Weeds" were being pulled from their roots. The old tree was chopped down, leaving only the stump.

Brother Richard, I hope you feel better.

Joe

[joel]

Proponents of the Futurist doctrine must explain this pass.



Jesus said to the Apostles, "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies..." and again, "These are the DAYS OF VENGEANCE [i.e. Day of the Lord] that ALL THINGS which are written MAY BE FULFILLED"

Critical thinking, but easy understanding.

Question: Was Jerusalem surrounded by armies in the first century?

Answer: YES

Question: Doesn't this mean that "All Things which are written" must be fulfilled during that time?

Answer: Yes

Question: Can Jesus be referring to a future surrounding of Jerusalem not applicable to the first century?

Answer: No possible chance.

Question: Since Jesus tied the surrounding of Jerusalem with the temple's destruction, doesn't this mean we (Preterist) are correct in showing that Jesus fulfilled all in the first century?

Answer: You know that's a solid yes.

Conclusion: All was fulfilled in the first century.

Joe

Joe, there is no disagreement with me that all things that were written that were to be fulfilled began to be fulfilled at that time. Many of those things were, in fact, completed, including the destruction of the Temple and the holy city, Jerusalem, being trodden down of the Gentiles.

That portion of the prophecy is continuing to be fulfilled until this very day. The Gentiles continue to trod down the holy city.

And, the Jewish people have been "taken captive" and continue to be so until this day. That process surely began in the first century.

The critical issue of the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel remains to be a very agressively resisted part of the overall process.

The Kingdom of God is obviously primarily an internal kingdom as being within those who have been graced with His truth and revelation. This Kingdom is within all who are believers.

The issue of the Kingdom of heaven having an outward expression is the issue at the heart of our ongoing discussions.

You may, however, see no distinction between the two; Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of heaven.........

I am one who believes that the Kingdom of heaven will have an expression on the earth and it will involve Israel, and the nations.

In the interim, the Kingdom of God is within us, who believe, and we are a part of the rule of God both in the heavens and upon the earth.

Joel

[TheForgiven]

Joe, there is no disagreement with me that all things that were written that were to be fulfilled began to be fulfilled at that time. Many of those things were, in fact, completed, including the destruction of the Temple and the holy city, Jerusalem, being trodden down of the Gentiles.

That portion of the prophecy is continuing to be fulfilled until this very day. The Gentiles continue to trod down the holy city.

Hello brother Joel.

I understand what you are saying. But allow me to ask you this honest question my friend.

You believe that the "Times of the Gentiles" are still going on today? That cannot be for a few good reasons, but for the sake of making this simple, here's why that won't work.

Jesus said in the very same passage, "These are the days of vengence that all things which are written are fulfilled..."

Now think clearly my friend. If you believe that they are still being "Trodden" by the Gentiles, then you must also believe that God's "Vengence" is still being poured upon them.

Again, if you believe the times of the gentiles are still being fulfilled, then you must also believe that God's vengance is still being poured out upon them. This also means that the "Day of the Lord" is still happening.

Do you see the mistake in that belief system?

Therefore, the Day of the Lord, or vengence upon this (That) people was fulfilled. That's why Christ spoke the parable of the wheat and the weeds to them. The Christians within Jerusalem who were spared from the destruction represented the wheat, while the weeds represented those who rejected the gospels as presented by the Apostles, and the certain gifts of the Holy Spirit, through signs and wonders.

And to be honest, I've never heard of God's "Day" being 2000+ years. Is this a new formula? I know you didn't state this, but this is what you're implying, unconsciously of course. The troddening of the Gentiles today is not the same as it was in the first century. They are not being tortured or killed. In fact, some of them are terrorists and are doing the killing. But that is for another subject. Furthermore, how could Israel have been reborn in 1947, if you believe the troddening of the Gentiles is still going on? You can't have a double contraditive fulfillment. If they are still being trodden, then their nation has not yet been reborn. Besides, the captivity began far before then, when the King of Babylon destroyed the city and the temple. This was repeated when Titus (Roman Empire) destroyed the city and the temple; and Daniel is affirmed by his vision, that this was going to happen.

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Joe, there is no disagreement with me that all things that were written that were to be fulfilled began to be fulfilled at that time. Many of those things were, in fact, completed, including the destruction of the Temple and the holy city, Jerusalem, being trodden down of the Gentiles.

That portion of the prophecy is continuing to be fulfilled until this very day. The Gentiles continue to trod down the holy city.

I understand this view, but it is based on the idea that the old carnal Jerusalem was not utterly destroyed and resurrected as the New Jerusalem, the Church of God. This seems to be a very difficult idea for some folks to see or accept .... the old carnal earthly Jerusalem is contrasted by Paul with the heavenly Jerusalem, which seems to mean that the old ended and the new began. Is there anything in the NT that suggests a special future for any particular chunk of real estate on planet earth? I don't know of any.

The critical issue of the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel remains to be a very agressively resisted part of the overall process.

There are huge problems with the idea of a restoration of the first century Kingdom of Israel, the first being that God forgot to tell us about it in the NT. And the great prophecy of Exodus 19:6 was fulfilled in the Church (1 Pet 2:9) so how can it go back to carnal Israel again? And it seems contary to everything in God's plan. He is not interested in elevating one group of people over another. He did away with all that. The Kingdom of Israel was defined by the first covenant which no longer exists. God made a New Covenant with Israel. Just as the old Israel was defined by the old covenant, the New Israel is defined by the New Covenant. I don't see any relation between the carnal descendants of Abraham and eschatology.

The Kingdom of God is obviously primarily an internal kingdom as being within those who have been graced with His truth and revelation. This Kingdom is within all who are believers.

The issue of the Kingdom of heaven having an outward expression is the issue at the heart of our ongoing discussions.

You may, however, see no distinction between the two; Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of heaven.........

I am one who believes that the Kingdom of heaven will have an expression on the earth and it will involve Israel, and the nations.

This issue probably requires it's own thread. I do not know of any justification for the idea that the Kingdom of God is different than the Kingdom of Heaven. Where did you get this idea? The "Kingdom of Heaven" is just a pious Jew's way of refering to the Kingdom of God without using the word "God." Do not the parallel verses prove this? Consider:

Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.

It seems pretty obvious that the Kingdom of God = the Kingdom of Heaven.

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard,

I hope you feel better soon.

Warm Regards,
Wstruse

Thanks Wstruse,

I've been sleeping for most of the last 24 hours and finally seem to be feeling better. I'm able to enjoy soup and juice now. Should be almost back to normal by tomorrow.

Richard

[Rose]

Times of the Gentiles


IMO it seems that the 'times of the Gentiles' was fulfilled when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D.


Dan. 8:13-14 'Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain [saint] which spoke, How long [shall be] the vision [concerning] the daily [sacrifice], and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.'


Dan. 12:7 'And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and swore by him that lives for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.'


Luke 21:22-24 'For these be the days of vengeance, thatall thingswhich are written may be fulfilled. 23) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.'

When Jesus was talking to His disciples in the Olivet Discourse, He was telling them all the things that were going to happen to this generation (referring to it as the "times of the Gentiles"), like 1) being killed by the sword, 2) being taken away captive, and 3) Jerusalem being trampled: after which the times of the Gentiles would be fulfilled….those things all happened with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. These were things that Daniel also prophesied of; a time when all things would be finished.

Rom. 11:25 'For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.'

John 9:39 'And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.'

Likewise what the Apostle Paul was speaking of in his Epistle to the Romans was that the blindness of the unbelieving Jews (those who thought they could see) would continue until the fullness of God’s plan using the Gentiles for the judgment of Jerusalem had been fully accomplished.

The trampling underfoot that happened to Jerusalem by the Gentiles was the power of Rome that is symbolized by the Beast who is given power to continue 42 months.

Rev 13:5' And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.'

And that is the same time that is spoken of in Rev. 11:2, where the Gentiles are trampling the outer court, and the city.

Rev 11:2 'But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.'

This final 42 months that the Gentiles trample the city is what leads up to the ultimate destruction of the Temple. This time will come to an end in 70 A.D. because there is no more Jerusalem to be trampled, it has been destroyed. Then the time of God using the Gentiles (the power of Rome), to judge Jerusalem will have been fulfilled. Hence the times of the Gentiles has been fulfilled.

So the trampling of Jerusalem by the Gentiles is the Gentile power of Rome which has control over the city. The only power the Jews have at this point is over the Temple, and their religious laws. This power that Rome has continues right up until the time the city is destroyed and the Jews taken captive….at which time there is no more city or temple, so the times of the Gentiles has been fulfilled!



Rose