Past or Future?

**wstruse** · 02-16-2008, 01:05 PM

Richard and Eliyahu,

I have been enjoying your most interesting and spirited discussion on prophecy, past and future. Though I personally cannot reconcile a Preterist interpretation with what I believe are unfulfilled prophecies of both the "Old" and "New" testament. In reading both of your responses I have come to a better understand and appreciation of the Preterist and Futurist positions. I thought that I would post a tread that contains some of the Scriptural references I believe could not have been fulfilled between the time they were written (2nd temple era) and 70 AD. I just wanted to say again it is really a pleasure to read your spirited discussions that are severely lacking in animosity and arrogance. It is a great testimony to the both of you.

Warm Regards,
Wstruse

Isaiah 2:1-4 KJV Isaiah 2:1 ¶ The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of YHWH'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of YHWH, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of YHWH from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Isaiah 2:12-22 12 For the day of YHWH of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: 13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, 14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up, 15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall, 16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures. 17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and YHWH alone shall be exalted in that day. 18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish. 19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of YHWH, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. 20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; 21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of YHWH, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. 22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?

Isaiah 4:1-6 KJV Isaiah 4:1 ¶ And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. 2 ¶ In that day shall the branch of YHWH be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. 3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem: 4 When YHWH shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. 5 And YHWH will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence. 6 And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.

Isaiah 11:1-16 KJV Isaiah 11:1 ¶ And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of YHWH shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of YHWH; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of YHWH: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of YHWH, as the waters cover the sea. 10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. 11 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, that YHWH shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. 13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. 14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them. 15 And YHWH shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod. 16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

Isaiah 12:1-6 KJV Isaiah 12:1 ¶ And in that day thou shalt say, O YHWH, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me. 2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for YHWH JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. 3 ¶ Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation. 4 And in that day shall ye say, Praise YHWH, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted. 5 Sing unto YHWH; for he hath done excellent things: this is known in all the earth. 6 Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.

Isaiah 33:20-24 20 Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken. 21 But there the glorious YHWH will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby. 22 For YHWH is our judge, YHWH is our lawgiver, YHWH is our king; he will save us. 23 Thy tacklings are loosed; they could not well strengthen their mast, they could not spread the sail: then is the prey of a great spoil divided; the lame take the prey. 24 And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.

Isaiah 35:1 - 36:1 KJV Isaiah 35:1 ¶ The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. 2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of YHWH, and the excellency of our God. 3 Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees. 4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you. 5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. 6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert. 7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes. 8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein. 9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there: 10 And the ransomed of YHWH shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

Isaiah 51:1 - 52:15 KJV Isaiah 51:1 ¶ Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek YHWH: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged. 2 Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him. 3 For YHWH shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of YHWH; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody. 4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people. 5 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust. 6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished. 7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings. 8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation. 9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of YHWH; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon? 10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over? 11 Therefore the redeemed of YHWH shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away. 12 I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass; 13 And forgettest YHWH thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor? 14 The captive exile hasteneth that he may be loosed, and that he should not die in the pit, nor that his bread should fail. 15 But I am YHWH thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: YHWH of hosts is his name. 16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people. 17 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of YHWH the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out. 18 There is none to guide her among all the sons whom she hath brought forth; neither is there any that taketh her by the hand of all the sons that she hath brought up. 19 These two things are come unto thee; who shall be sorry for thee? desolation, and destruction, and the famine, and the sword: by whom shall I comfort thee? 20 Thy sons have fainted, they lie at the head of all the streets, as a wild bull in a net: they are full of the fury of YHWH, the rebuke of thy God. 21 Therefore hear now this, thou afflicted, and drunken, but not with wine: 22 Thus saith thy Lord YHWH, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again: 23 But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.

KJV Isaiah 52:1 ¶ Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. 2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion. 3 ¶ For thus saith YHWH, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money. 4 For thus saith YHWH GOD, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. 5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith YHWH, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith YHWH; and my name continually every day is blasphemed. 6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I. 7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! 8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when YHWH shall bring again Zion. 9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for YHWH hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. 10 YHWH hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. 11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of YHWH. 12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for YHWH will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward. 13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. 14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: 15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

**wstruse** · 02-16-2008, 01:23 PM

Isaiah 60:1-22 KJV Isaiah 60:1 ¶ Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of YHWH is risen upon thee. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but YHWH shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. 4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. 6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of YHWH. 7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory. 8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? 9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of YHWH thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee. 10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. 11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought. 12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted. 13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious. 14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of YHWH, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. 15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. 16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I YHWH am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. 17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness. 18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise. 19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but YHWH shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. 20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for YHWH shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. 21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. 22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I YHWH will hasten it in his time.

If verses 1 & 2a were fulfilled in Yashua's time when will the rest be fulfilled?

Isaiah 61:1 - 62:12 KJV Isaiah 61:1 ¶ The Spirit of YHWH GOD is upon me; because YHWH hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of YHWH, .....................and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of YHWH, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. 5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. 6 But ye shall be named the Priests of YHWH: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. 7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them. 8 For I YHWH love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. 9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which YHWH hath blessed. 10 I will greatly rejoice in YHWH, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels. 11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so YHWH GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations. KJV Isaiah 62:1 ¶ For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. 2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of YHWH shall name. 3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of YHWH, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God. 4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for YHWH delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. 5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee. 6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of YHWH, keep not silence, 7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth. 8 YHWH hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured: 9 But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and praise YHWH; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in the courts of my holiness. 10 Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people. 11 Behold, YHWH hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. 12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of YHWH: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

Luke 4:18-21 8 The Spirit of YHWH is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of YHWH. ................ 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Isaiah 66:1-24 KJV Isaiah 66:1 ¶ Thus saith YHWH, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith YHWH: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not. 5 Hear the word of YHWH, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let YHWH be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed. 6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of YHWH that rendereth recompence to his enemies. 7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. 8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. 9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith YHWH: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God. 10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her: 11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory. 12 For thus saith YHWH, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. 14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of YHWH shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. 15 For, behold, YHWH will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will YHWH plead with all flesh: and the slain of YHWH shall be many. 17 ¶ They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith YHWH. 18 ¶ For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto YHWH out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith YHWH, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of YHWH. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith YHWH. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith YHWH, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith YHWH. 24 ¶ And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Jeremiah 3:14-17 14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith YHWH; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: 15 ¶ And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. 16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith YHWH, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of YHWH: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more. 17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of YHWH; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of YHWH, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

Jeremiah 30:1-24 The word that came to Jeremiah from YHWH, saying, 2 Thus speaketh YHWH God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book. 3 For, lo, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith YHWH: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it……………………. Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. 8 ¶ For it shall come to pass in that day, saith YHWH of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 9 But they shall serve YHWH their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. 10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith YHWH; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. 11 For I am with thee, saith YHWH, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished. 12 For thus saith YHWH, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous. 13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines. 14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased. 15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee. 16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey. 17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith YHWH; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after. 18 Thus saith YHWH; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof. 19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small. 20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them. 21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith YHWH. 22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 23 Behold, the whirlwind of YHWH goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked. 24 The fierce anger of YHWH shall not return, until he have done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

**wstruse** · 02-16-2008, 01:41 PM

Jeremiah 31:1-40 JV Jeremiah 31:1 ¶ At the same time, saith YHWH, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people. 2 Thus saith YHWH, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest. 3 YHWH hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. 4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry. 5 Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria: the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things. 6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto YHWH our God. 7 For thus saith YHWH; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O YHWH, save thy people, the remnant of Israel. 8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither. 9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. 10 Hear the word of YHWH, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock. 11 For YHWH hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he. 12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of YHWH, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all. 13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow. 14 And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, saith YHWH. 15 Thus saith YHWH; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not. 16 Thus saith YHWH; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith YHWH; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy. 17 And there is hope in thine end, saith YHWH, that thy children shall come again to their own border. 18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art YHWH my God. 19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth. 20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith YHWH. 21 Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest: turn again, O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities. 22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for YHWH hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man. 23 ¶ Thus saith YHWH of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; YHWH bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness. 24 And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks. 25 For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul. 26 ¶ Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me. 27 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast. 28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith YHWH. 29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. 30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. 31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith YHWH: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know YHWH: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith YHWH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. 35 Thus saith YHWH, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; YHWH of hosts is his name: 36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith YHWH, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. 37 Thus saith YHWH; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith YHWH. 38 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that the city shall be built to YHWH from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto YHWH; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

Jeremiah 33:19-26 19 ¶ And the word of YHWH came unto Jeremiah, saying, 20 Thus saith YHWH; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; 21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. 22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me. 23 ¶ Moreover the word of YHWH came to Jeremiah, saying, 24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which YHWH hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. 25 Thus saith YHWH; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; 26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

Isaiah 35:1 - 36:1 glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. 2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of YHWH, and the excellency of our God. 3 Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees. 4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you. 5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. 6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert. 7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes. 8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein. 9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there: 10 And the ransomed of YHWH shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

Joel 3:16-21 16 YHWH also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but YHWH will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. 17 So shall ye know that I am YHWH your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. 18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of YHWH, and shall water the valley of Shittim. 19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land. 20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. 21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for YHWH dwelleth in Zion.

Amos 9:13-15 13 Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. 14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. 15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith YHWH thy God.

Micah 4:1-13 KJV Micah 4:1 ¶ But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of YHWH shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of YHWH, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of YHWH from Jerusalem. 3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of YHWH of hosts hath spoken it. 5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of YHWH our God for ever and ever. 6 In that day, saith YHWH, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; 7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and YHWH shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. 8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem. 9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail. 10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there YHWH shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies. 11 Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion. 12 But they know not the thoughts of YHWH, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor. 13 Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto YHWH, and their substance unto YHWH of the whole earth.

Zephaniah 3:14 14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. 15 YHWH hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even YHWH, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more. 16 In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack. 17 YHWH thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. 18 I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden. 19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame. 20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith YHWH.

Zechariah 8:1-23KJV Zechariah 8:1 ¶ Again the word of YHWH of hosts came to me, saying, 2 Thus saith YHWH of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury. 3 Thus saith YHWH; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of YHWH of hosts the holy mountain. 4 Thus saith YHWH of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age. 5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof. 6 Thus saith YHWH of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith YHWH of hosts. 7 Thus saith YHWH of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness. 9 ¶ Thus saith YHWH of hosts; Let your hands be strong, ye that hear in these days these words by the mouth of the prophets, which were in the day that the foundation of the house of YHWH of hosts was laid, that the temple might be built. 10 For before these days there was no hire for man, nor any hire for beast; neither was there any peace to him that went out or came in because of the affliction: for I set all men every one against his neighbour. 11 But now I will not be unto the residue of this people as in the former days, saith YHWH of hosts. 12 For the seed shall be prosperous; the vine shall give her fruit, and the ground shall give her increase, and the heavens shall give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things. 13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong. 14 ¶ For thus saith YHWH of hosts; As I thought to punish you, when your fathers provoked me to wrath, saith YHWH of hosts, and I repented not: 15 So again have I thought in these days to do well unto Jerusalem and to the house of Judah: fear ye not. 16 These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates: 17 And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith YHWH. 18 ¶ And the word of YHWH of hosts came unto me, saying, 19 Thus saith YHWH of hosts; The fast of the fourth month, and the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth, shall be to the house of Judah joy and gladness, and cheerful feasts; therefore love the truth and peace. 20 ¶ Thus saith YHWH of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities: 21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before YHWH, and to seek YHWH of hosts: I will go also. 22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek YHWH of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before YHWH. 23 Thus saith YHWH of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

**wstruse** · 02-16-2008, 01:42 PM

Zechariah 14 ¶ Behold, the day of YHWH cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall YHWH go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and YHWH my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to YHWH, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8 ¶ And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 ¶ And YHWH shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. 10 ¶ All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. 12 ¶ And this shall be the plague wherewith YHWH will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from YHWH shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. 14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. 16 ¶ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, YHWH of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, YHWH of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith YHWH will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 20 ¶ In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO YHWH; and the pots in YHWH'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto YHWH of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of YHWH of hosts.

**Richard Amiel McGough** · 02-16-2008, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by wstruse

Richard and Eliyahu,

I have been enjoying your most interesting and spirited discussion on prophecy, past and future. Though I personally cannot reconcile a Preterist interpretation with what I believe are unfulfilled prophecies of both the "Old" and "New" testament. In reading both of your responses I have come to a better understand and appreciation of the Preterist and Futurist positions. I thought that I would post a tread that contains some of the Scriptural references I believe could not have been fulfilled between the time they were written (2nd temple era) and 70 AD. I just wanted to say again it is really a pleasure to read your spirited discussions that are severely lacking in animosity and arrogance. It is a great testimony to the both of you.

Warm Regards,
Wstruse

Hello there brother WStruse!

Good to hear from you. I'm glad you contributed to this on-going discussion, and I thank God that He gives us His Spirit of Peace so it can benefit others as we all work together to come to a fuller understanding of His Truth.

The verses you posted are central to the discussion. I will respond as best I can.

Originally Posted by wstruse

Isaiah 2:1-4 KJV Isaiah 2:1 ¶ The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of YHWH'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of YHWH, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of YHWH from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

I see this as fulfilled in the first century, which the Bible calls the "last days" as it is written:

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

The Book of Hebrews goes on to explain that Christ is the True Temple, which is the "House of the Lord" from which goes the "teaching" prophesied in Isaiah 2. I see no reason to assert that the reference to world peace should be taken literally. I think that is prophetic poetic language that speaks of the Kingdom of God, aka the Church, the Bride of Christ. It is the peace of Christ as declared by Paul in Ephesians:

Ephesians 2:14-18 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

The Peace of Christ is infinitely greater than any political carnal earthly happiness which I beleive is an obvious type, or figure, of the Gospel truth. It seems to me to be just like all the other types and shadows in the Bible.

Originally Posted by wstruse

Isaiah 2:12-22 12 For the day of YHWH of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: 13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, 14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up, 15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall, 16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures. 17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and YHWH alone shall be exalted in that day. 18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish. 19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of YHWH, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. 20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; 21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of YHWH, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. 22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?

I see that perfecty fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem. When it says that the Lord would "shake terribly the earth" the word is eretz which I believe refers to the land of Israel.

Originally Posted by wstruse

Isaiah 4:1-6 KJV Isaiah 4:1 ¶ And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. 2 ¶ In that day shall the branch of YHWH be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. 3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem: 4 When YHWH shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. 5 And YHWH will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence. 6 And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.

Yes, that is a prophecy of the Remnant of Israel which formed the nucleus of the new born first century Christian Church. Note the language "the branch of YHWH be beautiful and glorious" - the BRANCH is Christ - "and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel." Who were escaped of Israel if not the first century believers in Jesus Christ?

Originally Posted by wstruse

Isaiah 11:1-16 KJV Isaiah 11:1 ¶ And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of YHWH shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of YHWH; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of YHWH: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

AMEN INDEED! That was Jesus Christ, the Root of Jesse! He came! Praise God.

Originally Posted by wstruse

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of YHWH, as the waters cover the sea. 10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Amen again! The Gentiles were grafted in to the Jewish Church of Christ. And again, the peace speaks of the peace of Christ.

Originally Posted by wstruse

11 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, that YHWH shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. 13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. 14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them. 15 And YHWH shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod. 16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

Yes, that all happened when God gathered the scattered of Israel from EVERY NATION UNDER HEAVEN at Pentecost and saved three thousand of the remnant of them in one day, uniting the "two sticks" under "one shepherd" Jesus Christ when He poured out His Spirit as prophesied in Ezek 37.

Originally Posted by wstruse

Isaiah 12:1-6 KJV Isaiah 12:1 ¶ And in that day thou shalt say, O YHWH, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me. 2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for YHWH JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. 3 ¶ Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation. 4 And in that day shall ye say, Praise YHWH, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted. 5 Sing unto YHWH; for he hath done excellent things: this is known in all the earth. 6 Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.

Amen indeed! That is a great prophecy of the Gospel.

Well ... no need to go through every Scripture you posted. I think the point is clear. Our understanding of the Bible depends upon how we interpret it. No Scirptures really "speak for themselves" because they must be understood in light of the rest of the Bible, and that means that everyone will bring their own vision of how all those pieces fit together. So the only way to settle these questions is to find the FOUNDATION of our hermeneutics and eschatology, and talk enough until we find what we agree upon, and where we differ. Then perhaps we will have dug down deep enough to find the FOUNDATION STONE upon which valid Biblical interpretation rests.

I look forward to that day, and I thank you for your ongoing contribution wstruse.

Richard

**Richard Amiel McGough** · 02-16-2008, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by wstruse

Jeremiah 31:1-40

Jeremaih 31 is the prophecy of the NEW COVENANT. Are you suggesting it is yet future?

**Richard Amiel McGough** · 02-16-2008, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by wstruse

Amos 9:13-15 13 Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. 14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. 15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith YHWH thy God.

This prophecy was fulfilled in the formation of the Christian Church under the New Covenant and the grafting in of Gentiles as declared in Acts 15:

Acts 15:13-18 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Richard

**wstruse** · 02-16-2008, 04:51 PM

Hello Richard,

It is good to talk to you again. I agree with you that our interpretation is based upon how we view the Scripture. I also see your point your perspective in you posts above. You see complete fulfillment of those passages I see only partial. Here is a good example you stated:

Yes, that all happened when God gathered the scattered of Israel from EVERY NATION UNDER HEAVEN at Pentecost and saved three thousand of the remnant of them in one day, uniting the "two sticks" under "one shepherd" Jesus Christ when He poured out His Spirit as prophesied in Ezek 37.

I have no problem with your interpretation as far as it goes. Yes Pentecost began that process. There is more to the prophecy of Ezek. 37 thought. The ultimate fulfillement sees 'I…will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore'……and 'when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them'. And 'they shall dwell in the land' ….' Their children, and their children’s children for ever'. 'wherein your fathers dwelt'. So yes I agree with you that Pentecost began that process but I disagree that it also completed it.

Ezekiel 37:19-28 19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. 20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. 21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: 23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. 24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Concerning Jeremiah 31, again I agree with you concerning the covenant but that is only part of the prophecy. Just as Ezek. 37 shows there is more to come!

Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that the city shall be built to YHWH from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto YHWH; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

Originally Posted by wstruse
Amos 9:13-15 13 Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. 14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. 15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith YHWH thy God.

This prophecy was fulfilled in the formation of the Christian Church under the New Covenant and the grafting in of Gentiles as declared in Acts 15:

Richard I will just have to disagree with you on this quote I don’t see how Amos can be fit to fulfill Acts 15.

You know Richard we will probably have to agree to disagree on this subject. There are just far to many passages I see as literal that must be spiritualized in order to accept the Preterist position. You make many valid points. I just believe you carry them too far or in some cases not far enough. You say:

I see no reason to assert that the reference to world peace should be taken literally.

My clever

response would be that I see no reason – not - to assert that the reference to world peace should be taken literally. So you see we stand at a impasse.

I will offer you this, while I do not believe anyone can know the 'day or hour' I do believe that we will have an answer, one way or another to this question in the not to distant future.

Warm Regards,
Wstruse

**Richard Amiel McGough** · 02-16-2008, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by wstruse

Hello Richard,

It is good to talk to you again. I agree with you that our interpretation is based upon how we view the Scripture. I also see your point your perspective in you posts above. You see complete fulfillment of those passages I see only partial. Here is a good example you stated:

Originally Posted by RAM

Yes, that all happened when God gathered the scattered of Israel from EVERY NATION UNDER HEAVEN at Pentecost and saved three thousand of the remnant of them in one day, uniting the "two sticks" under "one shepherd" Jesus Christ when He poured out His Spirit as prophesied in Ezek 37.

I have no problem with your interpretation as far as it goes. Yes Pentecost began that process. There is more to the prophecy of Ezek. 37 thought. The ultimate fulfillement sees 'I…will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore'……and 'when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them'. And 'they shall dwell in the land' ….' Their children, and their children’s children for ever'. 'wherein your fathers dwelt'. So yes I agree with you that Pentecost began that process but I disagree that it also completed it.

I'm glad you understand where I am coming from. That makes the conversation very satisfying since we can focus on the points of difference.

As for the specific point you raised, it seems to me that prophecy also was explicitly declared to have been fulfilled in 2 Corinthians:

2 Corinthians 6:16-18 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

See that? The NT explicitly explains how God fulfilled this prophecy in the New Covenant Church. Note also how it teaches us that the prophecy was a TYPE with the Old Covenant Temple representing the New Covenant Church. I see no reason whatsoever to expect a carnal "temple" made of sticks and stones as a future replacement of the living Temple made with living stones. It seems absurd to suggest that God is going to go backwards and reduce His covenant people back down to a small ethnic group based on carnal relations and distinctions between "Jew" and "Gentile."

Originally Posted by wstruse

Concerning Jeremiah 31, again I agree with you concerning the covenant but that is only part of the prophecy. Just as Ezek. 37 shows there is more to come!

Well, you will have to state clearly what you expect, and we can discuss it.

Originally Posted by wstruse

Originally Posted by wstruse
Amos 9:13-15 13 Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. 14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. 15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith YHWH thy God.

Richard I will just have to disagree with you on this quote I don’t see how Amos can be fit to fulfill Acts 15.

Well, this brings up the FOUNDATION of Biblical hermeneutics. I don't think we are justified to chop up a single prophecy into "this part is fulfilled" and "that part is yet to come" followed by another part that is "already fulfilled." The invalidity of such an interpretive scheme is confirmed by the fact that the NT explicitly shows how those prophecies were fulfilled in non-literal ways, and it is amplified yet again by the fact that there is no reason to believe that God intended us to interpret them "literally" in the first place.

Originally Posted by wstruse

You know Richard we will probably have to agree to disagree on this subject. There are just far to many passages I see as literal that must be spiritualized in order to accept the Preterist position. You make many valid points. I just believe you carry them too far or in some cases not far enough. You say:

Originally Posted by RAM

I see no reason to assert that the reference to world peace should be taken literally.

My clever

response would be that I see no reason – not - to assert that the reference to world peace should be taken literally. So you see we stand at a impasse.

Ahhh .. I don't think I'll let you off that easily. You see, an "impasse" suggests that neither side has sufficient evidence to settle the case. I assert that the evidence is there in the Bible, and that it can be discerned.

I have givem strong Biblical statements that exemplify the fulfillment of those prophecies. I am not aware of any reason I should ignore their fulfillment in the Church and expect some sort of carnal fulfillment involving literal "Israel" in the future. That whole scenario seems contrary to the fundamental Gospel proclamation of the entire Bible. I would be very interested if you can formulate an argument as to why I should believe in futurism.

Originally Posted by wstruse

I will offer you this, while I do not believe anyone can know the 'day or hour' I do believe that we will have an answer, one way or another to this question in the not to distant future.

Warm Regards,
Wstruse

I would love to know what you believe and why. Please feel free to share your ideas here.

Great chatting bro.

God bless!

Richard

**TheForgiven** · 02-17-2008, 07:19 PM

Isaiah 2:1-4 KJV Isaiah 2:1 ¶ The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of YHWH'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of YHWH, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of YHWH from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

This one is easy. The former Israel of the flesh were taught to defend the city with swords and spears. Nations likewise fought in the same manner to protect their Kingdom. But a time was coming when the Israel of God would be retrained, and instead of beating the hot metal into swords, or instead of fashioning spears, their swords would become plowshares, and their spears became pruning hooks.

Plowshares are farming tools used to prepare the soil for planting seed. Pruning hooks are tools used to cut-down the grapes from the vine. These are not to be taken literal, but spiritual. What then was Jehovah God trying to say? That the Israel of God would learn the ways of war no more, for their war was with weapons of faith; Spiritual Faith. We Christian soldiers don't use weapons of man to fight wars, but the word of God. For the word of God is living an active, sharper than any two-edged sword, able to penetrate even the sinew and bone. We plant seeds the hearts of men with the word of God. It was the Apostles who prepared the fields with their plowshares, and it was they also, who pruned the fruits of the garden, figurative for yielding many souls unto God.

Something else for you to consider. Man doesn't fight with swords or spears anymore.

That method of battle hasn't been used in over a thousand years. We use tanks, planes, machine guns, missles, and other weapons; so does geographical Israel.

Last thing to consider. The Roman Empire is perhaps the strongest Empire of man ever to exist. Have you ever wondered how it was that the Kigndom of God (The Church) won such a great victory over this beast? And did the Christians use swords or spears to defeat them? Nope, they used the figures of plowshares and pruning hooks, by their planting of God's work into their hearts, and by sharing all the fruits of the Kingdom amongst themselves, they gained influence over many cities and eventually led to the death of the Beast, the Roman Empire.

Man I love this stuff! Amen!

Joe

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