True Israel

[Brother Bob]

Richard, Maybe we could cut the Sabbath/Law posts out of this thread and start a separate thread? We've all drifted from the thread's central purpose...I think.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard, Maybe we could cut the Sabbath/Law posts out of this thread and start a separate thread? We've all drifted from the thread's central purpose...I think.

Good suggestion. I moved them over to their own thread in the Hermeneutics and Theology forum.

All further discussion of the meaning of the Saturday Sabbath for Christians should be continued there.

[joel]

Brother Bob began this thread, and in his initial post he said;

"There are many who believe that God still plans to reconstitute the nation of Israel and rebuild a literal temple. I believe this is a false teaching. God's plan for the Jew is that they come to faith and believe in His Son, for He is able to graft in the original olive branches. The Jews in Palestine today and in the whole world for that matter are not God's chosen people. God's chosen people are those who put their faith in Jesus."

----------------------------------------------------------

The reconstitution of the nation of Israel was promised to the "chosen nation" by Moses in Deuteronomy 4;
25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the Lord thy God, to provoke him to anger;
26 I will call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to posess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.
28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and all thy soul.
30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient into his voice;
31 (For the Lord thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

(there follows a series of verses concerning God's choice of Israel and their deliverance from Egypt, and, the section ends, with.......)

40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth thee, for ever.

They, Israel, "utterly perished from off the land" multiple times. But, if they were permanently extinguished, why is it stated that they will be assimlilated into the nations, but, will still be known to be there, by God Who will recall them again "in latter days"?

Joel

[higgins the 153 man]

God chose Abraham the qualities he had were what God desired God chose him later after flood as these qualities died exept in Noa Holy Spirit not given till new testament Penticost when opened to all who would belive, now we have a state when few belive but God is still calling so any who are called are Spiritual isaelites, scripture backs up not time only just came across this great site.love in Christ the King of the Isralelights both original and the grafted in ones. as am I

[Richard Amiel McGough]

God chose Abraham the qualities he had were what God desired God chose him later after flood as these qualities died exept in Noa Holy Spirit not given till new testament Penticost when opened to all who would belive, now we have a state when few belive but God is still calling so any who are called are Spiritual isaelites, scripture backs up not time only just came across this great site.love in Christ the King of the Isralelights both original and the grafted in ones. as am I

Hi higgins!

Very good to meet you, and welcome to our forum!

It looks like you and I are in perfect agreement about Israel transforming into the Church, just like Paul said "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." Philippians 3:3.

We've been talking about similar things in the Sabbath thread and the Galatians thread. There seems to be a lot of confusion about the fleshly versus the spiritual things when it comes to Israel. I look forward to your contribution so we all may come one step closer to "the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Ephesians 4:13)

Again, welcome to the forum!

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

They, Israel, "utterly perished from off the land" multiple times. But, if they were permanently extinguished, why is it stated that they will be assimlilated into the nations, but, will still be known to be there, by God Who will recall them again "in latter days"?

Joel

This is a very important question Joel, I'm glad you asked it! If it means what you suggest, then it proves that the modern state of Israel has nothing to do with its fulfillment because the modern state is made up of unbelieving Jews who continue to reject YHVH who visited them in the person of Jesus Christ. I would be interested to know how this fits with your overall understanding of prophecy and the modern state of Israel.

Also, to do a proper exegesis of this passage, we would need to note that the "latter days" applied to the time of Christ. They may also apply to a specific time still future, but that would have to be established by a careful analysis of the text, since it certainly is not obvious.

Richard

[joel]

This is a very important question Joel, I'm glad you asked it! If it means what you suggest, then it proves that the modern state of Israel has nothing to do with its fulfillment because the modern state is made up of unbelieving Jews who continue to reject YHVH who visited them in the person of Jesus Christ. I would be interested to know how this fits with your overall understanding of prophecy and the modern state of Israel.

Also, to do a proper exegesis of this passage, we would need to note that the "latter days" applied to the time of Christ. They may also apply to a specific time still future, but that would have to be established by a careful analysis of the text, since it certainly is not obvious.

Richard

I was not talking about the "modern state of Israel". The Jewish people who are assimilated into the nations at this present time may, indeed, if God so chooses them, become a part of the body of Christ, now. And, in so doing, such a salvation is consistent with the "secret" revealed by Paul wherein those of the nations and those of Jewish descent, are constituted a "joint-body".

This section of Deuteronomy says that "in latter days", they (the nation of Israel) will be reconstituted. It remains that we do not see the "latter days" in the same way.

Maybe, as we travel together, through this "gospel" journey, we will both be adjusted accordingly to that which is truly "true", and not to that which we currently think is "true".

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I was not talking about the "modern state of Israel". The Jewish people who are assimilated into the nations at this present time may, indeed, if God so chooses them, become a part of the body of Christ, now. And, in so doing, such a salvation is consistent with the "secret" revealed by Paul wherein those of the nations and those of Jewish descent, are constituted a "joint-body".

Yes, that is the Gospel of Christ. Are you suggesting that there will be a time when the Jews are "right with God through faith" but again a separate people from the Gentiles who are right with God through faith? As far as I can tell from what you have written before, you believe that the Body will be raptured and then the Jews will become "the Bride" and rule over under Christ. What then will the Gospel be? Will the Gentiles have to convert to a new kind of Judaism? Will their once again be two distinct peoples in the world, Jew and Gentile? It all seems very confusing to me.

This section of Deuteronomy says that "in latter days", they (the nation of Israel) will be reconstituted. It remains that we do not see the "latter days" in the same way.

Is that really what it says? Lets look again. There is only one verse that speaks of the "latter days" in Deuteronomy 4:

Deuteronomy 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;

It doesn't contain any promise that "they (the nation of Israel) will be reconstituted" in the latter days. So maybe the promise is in the context? Let's take a look:

Deuteronomy 4:25-40 25 ¶ When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger: 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. 27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. 28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. 29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. 30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; 31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God; ) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them. 32 ¶ For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it? 33 Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live? 34 Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes? 35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. 36 Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire. 37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt; 38 To drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou art, to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance, as it is this day. 39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. 40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.

I think this is an extreme stretch. Verse 40 is not the completion of the idea in verse 30! Verse 30 ends with the promise that they will find God if they seek Him. It says nothing about a "reconstituted Israel."

So taking verse 40 as a completion of the promise in verse 30 seems wrong. The subject had clearly changed, the "latter days" are no longer in view anywhere past verse 30. Furthermore, the promise itself is a general promise of the consequences of obedience under the Israeli theocracy which ended with Christ, and I know of nothing in the Bible that would suggest God intends to reconstitute the old Theocratic Kingdom of Israel. Christ said His kingdom is not of this world. Suggesting a return to a theocratic kingdom of this world strikes me as a reversal the entire thematic flow of the Bible.

As an aside, we should recall that the promise you cited is specifically characteristic of Spoke 5, and that it forms a very special link with The Fifth Day, the Fifth Commandment, and the last book on Spoke 5 which is the only NT book to quote it:

Ephesians 6:1-4 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. 2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise; ) 3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. 4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

I talk about this on Spoke 5, of course.

Maybe, as we travel together, through this "gospel" journey, we will both be adjusted accordingly to that which is truly "true", and not to that which we currently think is "true".

Joel

I do believe that is the prayer we hold in common, my brother.

God bless!

Richard

[Stephen]

Hi Richard,

Just got back from NZ but will have very limited time in which to contribute to this forum for the next five months. I would like to bring into question your assumption that the theocratic kingdom of Israel - instituted at Sinai presumably - can be said to be of this world. Didn't the Lord God Himself institute this kingdom? How can you then say that it was of this world, if God instituted it? That seems entirely paradoxical and nonsensical, unless you are saying - which I know that you are not - that God is of this world.

There is, I would contend, nothing at all of this world in the kingdom that God instituted with Israel. The failure lay with the people - as it does today even among the church - not with the kingdom that God set up. Israel, in fact, never followed close to the law of God at any time in its history. Israel never enacted that kingdom of God which was delivered to them at Sinai, which kingdom was, in my view, most definitely not of this world.

Let's hypothesise for a moment. What if Israel had made an excellent job of keeping those things committed unto them of God. How would they have reacted to Christ's appearing? I believe that, had they been keeping the law with their whole hearts, they would have quickly recognised Jesus as their Saviour. This implies that the kingdom of God - delivered at Sinai - is not of this world, which it clearly is not. Only unbelief is of this world. All the animal sacrifices etc. etc. were meant to be acts of faith, of believing, as we see in Abraham at Mount Moriah. The theocratic kingdom of God, delivered to Israel at Sinai, was never of this world. I think this basic misunderstanding of what the kingdom of God is is symptomatic of the misidentification of the church as Israel, which I believe it - the church - most definitely is not. It begs the question of why God even bothered with choosing the nation of Israel in the first instance. Essentially, I find the abrogation of the name Israel by the church illogical. It makes the words of the prophets redundant. Let's not forget that, in the first instance, the prophets were speaking to a national group named Israel. This is the immediate - and, therefore, the primary - context. To extrapolate from this point to the church is not without merit if the context from which the words originally came is also maintained. This is the context I believe you have lost - and, in fact, have obliterated - in your theory of the church being Israel.

To summarise, I believe your assumption that the theocratic kingdom of Israel was of this world is flawed, and needs to be carefully reviewed and thought through. This assumption seems to be at the root of the confusion surrounding the true identity of Israel. This question is certainly no easy matter, thanks to the many centuries of misidentification by the church, and the inherent nature of every text - not just Scripture - to always be open to contestation concerning meaning. Then, of course, there is the heavy overlap between the church and physical Israel in the contemporary context, which makes it an even more challenging task to interpret in the way that God Himself, through the prophets, might actually have intended it! Nevertheless, we must try, as the rewards of even trying are worth their weight in gold.

Stephen